Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show

[MCatry]

 

I don't see why people can't have a discussion/debate so long as it remains respectful.

 

The late issues regarding missing posts were related to 'discussions' escalating to verbal abuse directed to posters who happened to have the opposite opinion of the abuser.

I am totally ok with the administrator blocking those 'fights' (you cannot really call them 'conversations').

Regarding numerical data:

I am still away from home, but I hope I will be back on Sunday, or Monday. Then I will add more data for this season.

[Danielg342]

I'm glad the female cast has increased their screen time, more women on TV should always be given priority over upsetting a group of misogynists. It's certainly the best thing Messer has done for the show.

I disagree. First of all, the mere principle of preferring male characters over female characters doesn't make the preference misogynist (or sexist for that matter)- it is simply “having a preference” (same thing with the reverse scenario). If such a preference leads to that person refusing to believe that a female character could be good, then I'd say that's at least being sexist, since it bases an assumption on someone out of something that person cannot control.

As it regards to CM, as it has already been pointed out, many of its fans are female, so I'd at least like to think that a preference for the male cast has nothing to do with an actual dislike of women in general. Furthermore, the male characters of the show are about as far from sexist or misogynist as they could possibly be- Hotch, Reid and even Rossi and Morgan have been shown, constantly and repeatedly, to treat the women in their lives with respect and dignity, from every faction like co-workers and friends to victims and even UnSubs alike.

You could certainly fault the show for not properly defining its female characters and treating them as replaceable- it may or may not be intentional, but that is still sexist. Then, of course, there's victim selection, but even then I doubt it's driven by sexism- the reality with serial killers are that most of their victims are female, and, at least in the early seasons, the characters at least acknowledged they were people with lives and thus deserved justice and dignity.

...but the preference for the male cast? I don't think it has anything to do with sexism and everything to do with the fact those characters are better defined and better portrayed than their female counterparts. I also think if you asked a lot of CM fans- myself included- they too would have liked a female character who is enjoyable and greatly defined, but we can only work with what we have.

[SSAHotchner]

I disagree. First of all, the mere principle of preferring male characters over female characters doesn't make the preference misogynist (or sexist for that matter)- it is simply “having a preference” (same thing with the reverse scenario). If such a preference leads to that person refusing to believe that a female character could be good, then I'd say that's at least being sexist, since it bases an assumption on someone out of something that person cannot control.

As it regards to CM, as it has already been pointed out, many of its fans are female, so I'd at least like to think that a preference for the male cast has nothing to do with an actual dislike of women in general. Furthermore, the male characters of the show are about as far from sexist or misogynist as they could possibly be- Hotch, Reid and even Rossi and Morgan have been shown, constantly and repeatedly, to treat the women in their lives with respect and dignity, from every faction like co-workers and friends to victims and even UnSubs alike.

You could certainly fault the show for not properly defining its female characters and treating them as replaceable- it may or may not be intentional, but that is still sexist. Then, of course, there's victim selection, but even then I doubt it's driven by sexism- the reality with serial killers are that most of their victims are female, and, at least in the early seasons, the characters at least acknowledged they were people with lives and thus deserved justice and dignity.

...but the preference for the male cast? I don't think it has anything to do with sexism and everything to do with the fact those characters are better defined and better portrayed than their female counterparts. I also think if you asked a lot of CM fans- myself included- they too would have liked a female character who is enjoyable and greatly defined, but we can only work with what we have.

I agree with everything you said here, but I'm female and actually liked the female characters in the early seasons. I realize they weren't as well-defined, as you say, but I liked them, especially Emily. The reason I no longer like JJ or Garcia is because of the way they are being written now.

[zannej]

Hmm.. I didn't realize he had so few words in season 3-- but then maybe he just used better vocabulary. LOL. And I think he had more useful contributions then.

 

Now they give him a lot of fluff words and even though he gets more words, its not necessarily helpful stuff.

 

So, I'm guessing the word count for the final episode is in? i wonder what the screentime division was. I think unsubs got too much time.

[Droogie]

I have no earthly idea how you guys are able to do all this but I am so glad you can! Tweet or email it to the writers, or EM, if you haven't already. Numbers don't lie.

[JMO]

 

I have no earthly idea how you guys are able to do all this but I am so glad you can! Tweet or email it to the writers, or EM, if you haven't already. Numbers don't lie.

 

I don't know, Droogie.  If numbers don't lie (then you haven't played enough with statistics--kidding), they also don't tell the whole story.  Look at Nelson's Sparrow.  Would you have rather they'd given Reid a lot more to say, or just let MGG emote silently?  My vote goes with the latter. 

 

I don't really know what to make of these word counts.

[normasm]

The word counts are interesting, but I think the onscreen time is more indicative of character attention, precisely for the reason you stated; MGG can convey volumes without words, and when they let him do it, it furthers the character.

 

Sometimes when he has a lot to say, it's one of those erroneous fact-dumps the researchers come up with that they don't understand but think is cool, so they have Spencer say it so people will believe it's true, which retards the character.

[Droogie]

I don't know, Droogie.  If numbers don't lie (then you haven't played enough with statistics--kidding), they also don't tell the whole story.  Look at Nelson's Sparrow.  Would you have rather they'd given Reid a lot more to say, or just let MGG emote silently?  My vote goes with the latter. 

 

I don't really know what to make of these word counts.

This English-major-turned-nurse has a HUGE issue with numbers -- I'm just looking at the pretty graphs! :-)

Oh, yes, Nelson's Sparrow was phenomenal Reid. I do think Reid had significance this season, in spite of the few words. I am just looking at Season 4, and the scenes with his dad and Diana. And Season 5, which surprised me with the relatively high word count, but we did get the brilliant Uncanny Valley from it -- I want that Reid, too.

I'm just glad that MGG is able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[zannej]

My father actually had a book titled "How to Lie With Statistics" and explained how people can twist the results to make false statements allegedly supported by statistics.

 

As we've seen from these charts and such on screentime and number of words, it comes down to the quality of that screentime and the usefulness of the dialog. Because a person can babble off a lot of words without actually saying anything useful (and worse, looking totally stupid).

 

Wasn't someone keeping tabs on the number of times team members drew their guns in episodes and also were wearing kevlar or something?

[amensisterfriend]

It's funny how the episodes I objectively think are 'best' are so often not my personal favorites or the ones I'm most eager to rewatch :) 

[normasm]

Amen, this is sometimes true for me, especially in reverse; sometimes the ones i enjoy the most aren't the "best" episodes. I thoroughly enjoy Fisher King 1 & 2, although when you think about the plausibility of the whole thing, weeeellllll...

 

An episode like Nelson's Sparrow is very important, and for the most part really good, but i can't watch the unsub parts at all, it's totally gross and gratuitous.

[amensisterfriend]

I thoroughly enjoy Fisher King 1 & 2, although when you think about the plausibility of the whole thing, weeeellllll...

 

Ha! I swear that I had these episodes in mind while I was typing! Fisher King Pt 2 kind of falls apart when analyzed objectively, but it's still easily one of my most rewatched episodes of the entire series, in no small part because everything involving Reid and Diana is an automatic 'best' for me :) 

 

Conversely, I know that 100 and Revelations are both objectively very good, but I dislike rewatching them. 

[jaytee1812]

Conversely, I know that 100 and Revelations are both objectively very good, but I dislike rewatching them.

I like re watching 100 but not Revalations.

I often find the show has a run of good episodes. From The Boogeyman- Sex, Birth, Death in season 2, and Normal - Conflicted in season 4.

[Bookish Jen]

Amen, this is sometimes true for me, especially in reverse; sometimes the ones i enjoy the most aren't the "best" episodes. I thoroughly enjoy Fisher King 1 & 2, although when you think about the plausibility of the whole thing, weeeellllll...

 

An episode like Nelson's Sparrow is very important, and for the most part really good, but i can't watch the unsub parts at all, it's totally gross and gratuitous.

I'm with you. The Unsub scenes in that episode are so gratuitous and verge on the absurd.

 

But that scene with at the morgue where they identify Gideon's body when Spencer's shaking hand wipes tears from his eyes and other tears slowly slide down his face hits me in the gut Every.Single.Time. MGG just nails that scene just so....

 

...if Mr. Gubler doesn't win a major award for his talent in front and behind the camera, I will throw my Liz Taylor-inspired sparkly caftan to the winds and proclaim, "Now I am convinced God doesn't want us to have nice things."

[amensisterfriend]

I often find the show has a run of good episodes. From The Boogeyman- Sex, Birth, Death in season 2, and Normal - Conflicted in season 4.

 

Weirdly enough, I actually think my favorite run of episodes is the first half of S1. It may not objectively be the best stretch of the series, but I'm just so attached to it and find those episodes eminently rewatchable. 

[normasm]

Well, Booky, we have the Nice Things, it's just that it seems like a pure accident for all the appreciation Mr. Gubler's nicethings seem to receive outside this "room."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I like re watching 100 but not Revalations.

 

Out of curiosity, why not Revelations?

[Droogie]

I can watch Revelations over and over, even though it affects me greatly. I cannot, however, rewatch Zugzwang. Ever. I think I've seen it three times, but I'm not so much of a masochist that I would risk a fourth. I think the storyline was awful, though I think MGG acted the hell out of it. But I can't look at him all broken, and hear that music at the end. And the glimpse of Alex closing her eyes (oh!) -- it's just too much for me.

Is that what great TV does, though? Affect you deeply? It succeeded. Although I give credit to the principal actor and not the writing. That was some cruel, cruel shit. I'll never forgive them for it.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Droogie

[MCatry]

Hi.

I just got reunited with my desktop PC.

Here are more figures for you. More to come as soon as I get some free time to finish two in-between episodes. I've done the last one already, but I will deliver the data with the whole remaining set.

In the meantime, here you have:

 

Season 10 episode 9
Rossi 17 minutes and 22 seconds
Unsub 14 minutes and 35 seconds
Kate 7 minutes and 54 seconds
Hotch 7 minutes and 16 seconds
JJ 5 minutes and 48 seconds
Garcia 4 minutes and 26 seconds
Morgan 4 minutes and 13 seconds
Reid 3 minutes and 43 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 10
unsubs 21 minutes and 19 seconds
Hotch 10 minutes
Rossi 9 minutes and 24 seconds
Reid 7 minutes and 34 seconds
JJ 7 minutes and 27 seconds
Morgan 7 minutes and 26 seconds
Kate 6 minutes and 37 seconds
Garcia 3 minutes and 48 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 11
JJ 21 minutes and 56 seconds
Reid 9 minutes and 58 seconds
Unsubs 9 minutes and 35 seconds
Morgan 7 minutes and 15 seconds
Kate 6 minutes and 48 seconds
Rossi 5 minutes and 2 seconds
Hotch 4 minutes and 46 seconds
Garcia 2 minutes and 23 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 12
rossi 13 minutes and 22 seconds
Morgan 8 minutes and 56 seconds
jj 8 minutes and 20 seconds
Unsubs 8 minutes and 15 seconds
Hotch 7 minutes and 21 seconds
Kate 5 minutes and 25 seconds
Reid 5 minutes and 4 seconds
Garcia 4 minutes and 56 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 13
Rossi 14 minutes and 59 seconds
Hotch 12 minutes and 5 seconds
Reid 11 minutes and 54 seconds
Morgan 9 minutes and 28 seconds
JJ 8 minutes and 38 seconds
Kate 8 minutes and 9 seconds
Garcia 7 minutes and 10 seconds
flashback 6 minutes and 27 seconds
unsubs 4 minutes and 52 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 14
Reid 14 minutes and 11 seconds
Morgan 13 minutes and 11 seconds
Rossi 12 minutes and 59 seconds
Unsubs  12 minutes and 14 seconds
Kate 12 minutes and 10 seconds
JJ 10 minutes and 58 seconds
Hotch 10 minutes and 56 seconds
Garcia 1 minute and 16 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 15
unsub 17 minutes and 23 seconds
Kate 11 minutes and 20 seconds
Morgan 9 minutes and 20 seconds
Rossi 9 minutes and 5 seconds
JJ 8 minutes and 5 seconds
Hotch 6 minutes and 57 seconds
Reid 6 minutes and 4 seconds
Garcia 4 minutes and 46 seconds
Kate's family 4 minutes and 19 seconds

[missmycat]

Hi.

I just got reunited with my desktop PC.

Here are more figures for you. More to come as soon as I get some free time to finish two in-between episodes. I've done the last one already, but I will deliver the data with the whole remaining set.

In the meantime, here you have:

 

Season 10 episode 9

Rossi 17 minutes and 22 seconds

Unsub 14 minutes and 35 seconds

Kate 7 minutes and 54 seconds

Hotch 7 minutes and 16 seconds

JJ 5 minutes and 48 seconds

Garcia 4 minutes and 26 seconds

Morgan 4 minutes and 13 seconds

Reid 3 minutes and 43 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 10

unsubs 21 minutes and 19 seconds

Hotch 10 minutes

Rossi 9 minutes and 24 seconds

Reid 7 minutes and 34 seconds

JJ 7 minutes and 27 seconds

Morgan 7 minutes and 26 seconds

Kate 6 minutes and 37 seconds

Garcia 3 minutes and 48 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 11

JJ 21 minutes and 56 seconds

Reid 9 minutes and 58 seconds

Unsubs 9 minutes and 35 seconds

Morgan 7 minutes and 15 seconds

Kate 6 minutes and 48 seconds

Rossi 5 minutes and 2 seconds

Hotch 4 minutes and 46 seconds

Garcia 2 minutes and 23 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 12

rossi 13 minutes and 22 seconds

Morgan 8 minutes and 56 seconds

jj 8 minutes and 20 seconds

Unsubs 8 minutes and 15 seconds

Hotch 7 minutes and 21 seconds

Kate 5 minutes and 25 seconds

Reid 5 minutes and 4 seconds

Garcia 4 minutes and 56 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 13

Rossi 14 minutes and 59 seconds

Hotch 12 minutes and 5 seconds

Reid 11 minutes and 54 seconds

Morgan 9 minutes and 28 seconds

JJ 8 minutes and 38 seconds

Kate 8 minutes and 9 seconds

Garcia 7 minutes and 10 seconds

flashback 6 minutes and 27 seconds

unsubs 4 minutes and 52 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 14

Reid 14 minutes and 11 seconds

Morgan 13 minutes and 11 seconds

Rossi 12 minutes and 59 seconds

Unsubs  12 minutes and 14 seconds

Kate 12 minutes and 10 seconds

JJ 10 minutes and 58 seconds

Hotch 10 minutes and 56 seconds

Garcia 1 minute and 16 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 15

unsub 17 minutes and 23 seconds

Kate 11 minutes and 20 seconds

Morgan 9 minutes and 20 seconds

Rossi 9 minutes and 5 seconds

JJ 8 minutes and 5 seconds

Hotch 6 minutes and 57 seconds

Reid 6 minutes and 4 seconds

Garcia 4 minutes and 46 seconds

Kate's family 4 minutes and 19 seconds

Thanks once again for those statistics, MCATry

Would it be possible for you to add up each characters' screen time for the entire season 10.I'd especially be interested in seeing Reid's screen time.

[MCatry]

Thanks once again for those statistics, MCATry

Would it be possible for you to add up each characters' screen time for the entire season 10.I'd especially be interested in seeing Reid's screen time.

I already have that database, but it is still under construction. I will add the data for the last two episodes I still have to time (one of those is Mr Scratch, because I just watched it, but I didn't feel like going back and forth in different scenes). Then, I will post the final screen times for each one of the characters.

I just need to get a break from my daily schedule.

[MCatry]

My father actually had a book titled "How to Lie With Statistics" and explained how people can twist the results to make false statements allegedly supported by statistics.

As we've seen from these charts and such on screentime and number of words, it comes down to the quality of that screentime and the usefulness of the dialog. Because a person can babble off a lot of words without actually saying anything useful (and worse, looking totally stupid).

Some thoughts about this:

A) numbers don't lie. People does. And other people buy what they want to believe.

B) critical analysis of how numbers are presented shouldn't be that hard for most people. Sometimes I think people like to just parrot what they hear about statistics without even digging on the sampling method. Some time ago some members of the cast were listed on some sort of popularity ranking for tv actors and actresses. Well, the sampling method was atrocious, but quite a few people were happy just because their favourite actor/actress was listed, and it was said that 'that index' (which was not an index, at all) was used by those actors to negotiate contracts. Does anyone remember what am I talking about?

C) word analysis is interesting for me when based on sentences. I remember that once I counted the number of sentences Reid said in a couple of episodes, and one interesting thing that came out of that counting was that lately Reid formulate questions (and rather dumb ones), while in earlier seasons he was the one who answered questions (and rather intelligent ones) asked by other members. Nevertheless, sentences cannot be compared objectively.

D) social studies would tell you that it is possible to assess quality of dialogues, but I've been educated in natural sciences and exact sciences, and I don't believe on the reliability of those 'quality' studies. Sometimes we cannot even agree on one general assessment over how good or bad an episode was, so I think arguing over quality of sentences would be endless.

Edited because I just remembered something.

Once I was pretty bored and tried to figure out how different board games based on words would be based on different languages. How often a letter comes out in those games in which you have dices with letters to form words? How that depends on the language?

Well, long story short, it is also interesting to know how many tiny words (rather common in English) are said by a character, because it gives you an idea of the use of significant language among connective language.

Oh well. I won't go there anyway. Too late to start watching every single episode from episode 1.

Edited May 11, 2015 by MCatry

[zannej]

McCatry, I remember what you're talking about in terms of the Q scores of the cast members or some sort of popularity thing where the sampling they took of who liked or recognized particular actresses/actors was some limited specific group. I think readers of a particular magazine or something.

 

As for some of the statistics, I know one way people cheat with them is to count things in the results that shouldn't really be counted to skew in their favor. One egregious example is the people in favor of polygraph exams claiming the accuracy rate was higher because they included "inconclusive" results with the success ratings of the test's accuracy. If you took away the inconclusive results counting toward the success you were left with the results being no more accurate than flipping a coin. So, I know it is not the numbers themselves, but how the people represent them that can lead to the lies done with statistics.

 

When I look at how little screen time Garcia had in some of the episodes I almost feel bad for her and her fans, but she was a bit character from the very beginning of the show and the reason she was acceptable was because she was tolerable and even likable in small doses. I like Kirsten and all, but the dialog and the function of Garcia can really detract from the enjoyment of the show. And I have to say that as a Reid fan, I was offended that he was actually in an episode for less than 4 minutes. Maybe that is hypocritical of me, but I don't think it is right for someone who was one of the main characters who used to have a lot of contribution in earlier seasons to be reduced to that small amount. If they were using his time well, it wouldn't be so much of an issue-- but I know some of the scenes are just him twiddling his thumbs. Personally, I don't think that the team members should have less than 10 minutes each on screen (except for Garcia). Preferably they could all be together in scenes and there is no way the unsubs should ever be getting more than 10 minutes per episode unless they are hidden in plain sight where we don't know they are the unsubs. The focus should be on the team.

 

I wonder if you'd be willing to do a sampling of some earlier season 1 episodes to see the screen time division.

[Ganya]

I love all this info.  Just to add a bit of snark, Reid's screentime should be broken out into silent, model-y posing and then everything else.    That is a category that takes up more and more of his time, leaving even less time for contributions to the story.  Yeah, I enjoy that and appreciate the GIF wizards in the fandom, but it has to be said that it seems to be the main way the show values him these days.  We always get beautifully styled, posed and dressed Reid, even when his big insight is to  fondle the unsub's foot as Prince Charming.

 

I also am noticing that he often asks dumb questions now as a set up for others to have the insight,  and I agree that we cannot get into attempts to measure that. 

 

I will take some consolation, however, if Matthew continues to get support for his maturing and outstanding talents as a director.  Mr Scratch was a breakthrough, I hope.  Maybe it is all good with him as long as he can continue to develop artistically as director on  CM dime. 

[MCatry]

season 10 episode 16
Unsubs 22 minutes and 4 seconds
Morgan 14 minutes and 23 seconds
Kate 12 minutes and 49 seconds
Rossi 12 minutes and 1 seconds
Hotch 10 minutes and 5 seconds
Reid 7 minutes and 21 seconds
JJ 6 minutes and 3 seconds
Garcia 1 minute and 2 seconds

season 10 episode 17
unsubs 15 minutes and 20 seconds
Kate 10 minutes and 50 seconds
Morgan 8 minutes and 21 seconds
Rossi 7 minutes and 12 seconds
JJ 6 minutes and 20 seconds
Hotch 5 minutes and 34 seconds
Reid 5 minutes and 3 seconds
Garcia 4 minutes and 45 seconds

 

Extra notes:
So, Kate tells everybody (boss included) that she is pregnant.
And then she is participating actively in a raid?
I’ve read many complaints about why JJ was participating in the unsub chase of the week while pregnant along the last episode, but at least she didn’t tell anyone about it, so that’s on her, but that stuff about Kate?
I missed Reid in the staged delivery of the profile.

 

season 10 episode 18
Hotch 17 minutes and 44 seconds
JJ 14 minutes and 16 seconds
Rossi 12 minutes and 53 seconds
Morgan 12 minutes and 8 seconds
Unsub 10 minutes and 42 seconds
Reid 10 minutes and 38 seconds
Kate 8 minutes and 41 seconds
Garcia 6 minutes and 5 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 19
Beyond Borders 23 minutes and 59 seconds
Unsubs 13 minutes and 54 seconds
Hotch 11 minutes and 19 seconds
JJ 9 minutes and 14 seconds
Rossi 8 minutes and 69 seconds
Morgan 8 minutes and 26 seconds
Garcia 4 minutes and 22 seconds
Reid 1 minute and 51 seconds
Kate 1 minute and 48 seconds

 

Extra notes:
I decided to include beyond borders too here, for obvious reasons.That quote, again? Don’t we have, literally, millions of books to get different quotes?

And that guy that dresses even worst than Morgan?
And that comment about how the super BB eat? And by Rossi? Really?
And that BB boss asking Rossi if he would be able to monitor the operation? Really?
After watching this episode I ended up wishing for more unsub just to now watch the obnoxious team again.

I am beyond exasperated with this episode.

season 10 episode 20
Hotch 15 minutes and 52 seconds
JJ 8 minutes and 45 seconds
Unsub 8 minutes and 23 seconds
Rossi 8 minutes and 3 seconds
Morgan 8 minutes and 0 seconds
Reid 7 minutes and 22 seconds
Garcia 5 minutes and 0 seconds
Kate 4 minutes and 19 seconds

 

season 10 episode 21
Hotch 25 minutes and 20 seconds
Unsub 21 minutes and 15 seconds
Rossi 14 minutes and 14 seconds
JJ 14 minutes and 6 seconds
Morgan 13 minutes and 1 second
Reid 7 minutes and 50 seconds
Kate 6 minutes and 36 seconds
Garcia 5 minutes and 2 seconds

 

Season 10 episode 22
JJ 16 m and 31 sec
Unsub and victims 14 m and 39 sec
Morgan 12 m and 6 sec
Kate 8 m and 44 sec
Rossi 8 m and 1 sec
Reid 6 m and 41 sec
Hotch 5 m and 10 sec
Garcia 4 m and 25 sec
Meg and Friend 1 m and 31 sec

 

season 10 episode 23
unsubs 17 minutes and 6 seconds
hotch 14 minutes and 28 seconds
Kate 11 minutes and 10 seconds
JJ 10 minutes and 42 seconds
Rossi 10 minutes and 41 seconds
Morgan 7 minutes and 58 seconds
Garcia 7 minutes and 18 seconds
Reid 7 minutes and 13 seconds

Final results for season ten

 

Winner: unsubs, with 5 hours, 16 minutes and 13 seconds
Runner up: JJ, with 4 hours, 21 minutes and 48 seconds
Third place goes for Hotch, with 4 hours, 18 minutes and 34 seconds
Fourth place goes for Rossi, with 4 hours, 8 minutes and 34 seconds
Fifth place goes for Morgan, with 3 hours, 54 minutes and 16 seconds
Sixth place goes for Kate, with 3 hours, 25 minutes and 12 seconds
Penultimate, Reid, with two hours, 55 minutes and 52 seconds
Biggest loser: Garcia, with two hours, 0 minutes and 24 seconds

[Old Dog]

Thanks to the stats legend that is MCatry!

 

As I suspected , JJ came out well on top after the unsubs so that really totally quashes all those complaining about Kate dominating the season. For me, the fact that Reid was nearly at the bottom was the biggest crime of the season. Let's hope that Season 11 might be the "season of Reid" - it's about time!

[JMO]

I think the actual "biggest loser" is the fan of team dynamics.  Second biggest is the fan of Reid.  What a crime!

[Russet29]

Couldn't agree more JMO. I don't want to see the "season of (insert character's name here)," regardless of who the focus is on. I miss the days when the team dynamics were front and center.

[missmycat]

Well,Well,Well. It looks as if I was justified in feeling that JJ was once again being shoved down our throats. LOL so much for the claims that Kate was taken screen time away from JJ. Because these numbers tell an entire different story. If Kate took screen time away from anyone it was Reid. Which is why I am not sorry to see her go even though I actually liked her. My hope is that she isn't replaced and that the screen time that she would have gotten would go to Reid in addition to what he would have gotten anyway. I am livid about Reid's screen time but not surprised.And the unsubs screen time is just inexcusable. I loved for someone to tweet these so called statistics to Harry Bring and some of CM's writers and see what they have to say about it. To damn bad Messer isn't on twitter.

[MCatry]

Every team has an inner hierarchy. There is a leader, there are some other relevant members, there are some followers, and there are some omegas.

In earlier seasons that hierarchy manifested in the screen time clearly, and the characters that were more brainy were more important than the ones that would shot or kick doors. I think that was the way to go.

The current 'democracy' in which everyone holds the same importance is the factor that ruined that so called 'team dynamic'. I am not talking about screen time only, but also the value of the inputs. Most characters are now holding the same status, and hence, they became not only replaceable but expendable. The problem with this screen time distribution is that it fits more an action cop show, and not one about criminal behaviour.

Therefore, I am totally against a season in which every character would have even screen time and importance. In my opinion that would be the worst idea for such a large cast.

[Russet29]

I can't help but wonder if MGG is in a similar position to what Patrick Dempsey went through on Grey's Anatomy the past few years. PD was pretty open about his desire to focus on racing more and I believe he even said that a big reason he remained on GA for so long was for financial stability. It's no coincidence that his screen time decreased dramatically in the two years or so before his character was offed. And as his screen time dropped, he publicly devoted more time to racing and it almost became his full time job. Out of the main cast MGG seems to be the busiest with making other films, almost all indies. Independent film is a tough way to make a living so maybe the only reason MGG sticks with the show is because it gives him the financial stability to make however many low-budget films he wants. We'll probably never know because unlike PD, I get the feeling MGG isn't the type to bite the hand that feeds.

[MCatry]

. Out of the main cast MGG seems to be the busiest with making other films, almost all indies. Independent film is a tough way to make a living so maybe the only reason MGG sticks with the show is because it gives him the financial stability to make however many low-budget films he wants. We'll probably never know because unlike PD, I get the feeling MGG isn't the type to bite the hand that feeds.

I would rather say 'out of the whole cast', since I am not aware of the others being that busy at all. Maybe KV since she writes and acts in theatres, but that's it.

And MGG certainly doesn't need the money. His parents and step parents are wealthy. They have properties for several millions of dollars on their own. He attended to very expensive schools, such as the Meadows in Las Vegas, and NY Tish, without a scholarship. I remember that Shemar Moore was joking lightly about it with Gubler in one of those interviews held in Japan, because Gubler maternal parents owned their own private planes and the grandad was the pilot when they went on holidays. The joke was about Gubler having an airplane strip on the backyard, and MGG was embarrassed explaining that that was owned by his mom. Anyway, according to his own sayings and his own work history, he just doesn't like to say no to a job. Any job. I would say that he also stays because he is emotionally attached to people, and because he enjoys the direction task he gets. He never wanted to be an actor, so I guess he just doesn't care if he doesn't get much to do regarding lines and screen time.

[Russet29]

Yea but the main cast is the whole cast, unless you're referring to recurring cast members as well which I would still mostly agree with. Although Josh Stewart seems to find a ton or work and Nicholas Brendan…never mind. As to MGG not needing the money cause his parents are wealthy, I'm not sure he really wants to live off their money. It's one thing to allow your parents to pay for your education, but it's another story once you're 35 and capable of supporting yourself.

[normasm]

Every team has an inner hierarchy. There is a leader, there are some other relevant members, there are some followers, and there are some omegas.

In earlier seasons that hierarchy manifested in the screen time clearly, and the characters that were more brainy were more important than the ones that would shot or kick doors. I think that was the way to go.

The current 'democracy' in which everyone holds the same importance is the factor that ruined that so called 'team dynamic'. I am not talking about screen time only, but also the value of the inputs. Most characters are now holding the same status, and hence, they became not only replaceable but expendable. The problem with this screen time distribution is that it fits more an action cop show, and not one about criminal behaviour.

Therefore, I am totally against a season in which every character would have even screen time and importance. In my opinion that would be the worst idea for such a large cast.

Maybe "even" screen time is not what I'm really asking for, but "balanced" screen time among all the players. Meaning that, as one looks at the opening credits, the most important characters are Hotch and Rossi. Then comes Morgan and Reid, then JJ, then Garcia is last. (This is if they don't get a new profiler who would take the place of Jeanne Tripplehorn or Jennifer Love Hewitt in the position right after Rossi.) If Morgan is gone and they don't have a new profiler, Reid is 3rd in hierarchy, unless they make a horrendous error, and put JJ there. 

 

So, in your analysis, MCatry, it should always be more or less Hotch-Rossi-?-Morgan-Reid-JJ, and some Garcia. When there's focus on, say, one of the second tier stars (Morgan-Reid-JJ) this would be the only time that the predominance of the screen time should not be on Hotch and/or Rossi. Does that make any sense?

[MCatry]

Hey, Russet29: That's were you and I would never agree.

For me, the main cast is not the whole cast, and it would never be, no matter how much screen time and lines would be wasted on minor characters.

Recurring characters are rather irrelevant for me, specially because for the vast majority of them their only purpose is to bring romance to the show, and I couldn't care less about it.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MCatry

[MCatry]

Maybe "even" screen time is not what I'm really asking for, but "balanced" screen time among all the players. Meaning that, as one looks at the opening credits, the most important characters are Hotch and Rossi. Then comes Morgan and Reid, then JJ, then Garcia is last. (This is if they don't get a new profiler who would take the place of Jeanne Tripplehorn or Jennifer Love Hewitt in the position right after Rossi.) If Morgan is gone and they don't have a new profiler, Reid is 3rd in hierarchy, unless they make a horrendous error, and put JJ there. 

 

So, in your analysis, MCatry, it should always be more or less Hotch-Rossi-?-Morgan-Reid-JJ, and some Garcia. When there's focus on, say, one of the second tier stars (Morgan-Reid-JJ) this would be the only time that the predominance of the screen time should not be on Hotch and/or Rossi. Does that make any sense?

I keep saying that there are far too many characters to handle effectively. If anyone is highlighted, the fans of the one that is voted out of the screen are enraged. Quite a few times we debated about who should be more relevant in the show. I don't remember when, but the CBS once said that without Hotch and Rossi, they wouldn't renew the show. Now, do you think these are the favourites of the audience? I am not saying that they don't have enough fans. All the members of the cast have their own fanbase. But right now, who are the more valuable members of the cast in terms of audience? For who do people keep sitting in front of the screen? Does the CBS really thinks they would have a show if they keep Hotch and Rossi, and maybe someone else, but everyone else is 'replaceable'?

And then there is the overlapping of roles and expertness. Take Hotch and Rossi: old profilers. Experienced. Great at interrogations. They know people everywhere. They are duplicated. They should have one of those two leading another team in a real spinoff (and not that poor Beyond borders show). Now take JJ, Morgan, Reid and the Prentiss-replacement-of-the-season. Everyone can handle a geographical profile. Everyone can interpret ME reports with easy. Everyone has linguistic skills. Everyone's dialogue is nowadays interchangeable. Why do they pay for four characters that do exactly the same, when they could pay for only two? And then you have the action scenes, which in my opinion are not only a waste of time but an easy way out to not write meaningful dialogues.

Finally, why a technical advisor that cannot handle heels ended up having so much relevance? Just to insert some humour?

In a drama show?

In this season the show titles demonstrated that for the CBS the stars were Mantegna, Gibson and Hewitt, and in the screen time Messer demonstrated that the stars were the Guest Stars and Cook. In the meantime, social media keeps asking for Gubler, Vangsness (I still don't get why) and Moore (although I don't adhere to this, I at least understand it).

I just think that's a predicament really difficult to fix.

[Russet29]

McCatry I'm not really sure what you mean or what we're disagreeing about. There's the main cast, the recurring cast, and the guest cast (on a per episode basis). The whole cast is just an umbrella term used to group everyone in together. I said MGG seems to be the busiest of the main cast as opposed to the whole cast because I don't think he's busier than some recurring cast members, largely because of time constraints due to CM.

[MCatry]

Russet29: for me characters like JJ, Garcia, and even Morgan are minor characters. Hence, they don't belong to the 'main cast' (IMO). They are secondary characters, part of the whole cast, but not the 'main cast'. Then there are some recurring characters, and then the unsub/victim of the week.

[Bookish Jen]

I would rather say 'out of the whole cast', since I am not aware of the others being that busy at all. Maybe KV since she writes and acts in theatres, but that's it.

And MGG certainly doesn't need the money. His parents and step parents are wealthy. They have properties for several millions of dollars on their own. He attended to very expensive schools, such as the Meadows in Las Vegas, and NY Tish, without a scholarship. I remember that Shemar Moore was joking lightly about it with Gubler in one of those interviews held in Japan, because Gubler maternal parents owned their own private planes and the grandad was the pilot when they went on holidays. The joke was about Gubler having an airplane strip on the backyard, and MGG was embarrassed explaining that that was owned by his mom. Anyway, according to his own sayings and his own work history, he just doesn't like to say no to a job. Any job. I would say that he also stays because he is emotionally attached to people, and because he enjoys the direction task he gets. He never wanted to be an actor, so I guess he just doesn't care if he doesn't get much to do regarding lines and screen time.

Wow, I knew Matthew came from a fairly well-off family, but I had no idea his family was so posh! Though my parents are squarely in the middle to upper middle class category, my family history is very working class, if not downright poor, but I digress…

With his family’s wealth and all the privilege Matthew experienced in his life, he could have easily become the type of person I despise. Matthew could have become the type of person who refuses to acknowledge the privilege he had over less lucky souls and show no gratitude for the opportunities these privileges gave him from his top notch education to his internship with Wes Anderson to getting his now iconic role of Reid on a successful show like CM at a very young age to directing episodes of CM to all the cool more indie-based projects he has worked on and continues to work on. With all that, Matthew could have become an entitled shit, the type of guy who was born on third base and thought he hit a triple and totally looks down on people like me whose so-called silver spoon is covered a bit in rust and has had a more difficult life. Matthew seems truly gracious and grateful, a true mensch.

[missmycat]

Russet29: for me characters like JJ, Garcia, and even Morgan are minor characters. Hence, they don't belong to the 'main cast' (IMO). They are secondary characters, part of the whole cast, but not the 'main cast'. Then there are some recurring characters, and then the unsub/victim of the week.

Unfortunately I believe JJ's status was upped from that of a minor character to a main character when CBS stupidly let her and Paget go. And fans like me stupidly petition to bring them back. As it is we ended up losing Paget anyway the one character the majority of the fans wanted back. And JJ came back as character so many of us grew to despise after having petition to get her back.

[MCatry]

With his family’s wealth and all the privilege Matthew experienced in his life, he could have easily become the type of person I despise.

... With all that, Matthew could have become an entitled shit, the type of guy who was born on third base and thought he hit a triple and totally looks down on people like me whose so-called silver spoon is covered a bit in rust and has had a more difficult life. Matthew seems truly gracious and grateful, a true mensch.

Well, he has two parents that are very well adjusted to the real world, and he seems to have been educated to value all the benefits he has.

I myself come from a middle class family which had the opportunity to travel a lot, to get education and basically enjoy life, but at the same time my parents would always made us reflect about how lucky we were.

Once I accepted to work briefly in a private posh school to help secondary school students to get ready for some international examinations. Quite a few of my friends told me I was crazy, that they would be nasty students, like the ones you see in high school movies, but nothing was more far away from reality. They were not only nice, but interested into learn and well behaved. We visited a natural reserve as part of our activities, and the manager of the park asked me the address of the school website because she wanted to write a report on how well those students had behaved along the visit. She was surprised to see secondary school students saying 'please' and 'thank you' and being respectful all the time. I did three more trip experiences with different forms and I never had a single trouble. These were wealthy students, but they were great people.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MCatry

[SSAHotchner]

MCatry, I appreciate you taking the time to get these statistics for us. I'm very surprised. It certainly didn't feel like Hotch got that much screen time this season. And it actually felt to me that Reid was getting a bit more to do this season, although still not enough. The only thing I'm certain of is that there is way too much unsub and JJ. 

[Russet29]

Russet29: for me characters like JJ, Garcia, and even Morgan are minor characters. Hence, they don't belong to the 'main cast' (IMO). They are secondary characters, part of the whole cast, but not the 'main cast'. Then there are some recurring characters, and then the unsub/victim of the week.

 

 

Unfortunately I believe JJ's status was upped from that of a minor character to a main character when CBS stupidly let her and Paget go. And fans like me stupidly petition to bring them back. As it is we ended up losing Paget anyway the one character the majority of the fans wanted back. And JJ came back as character so many of us grew to despise after having petition to get her back.

In defense of those three characters, those actors have been getting billed as being part of the main cast since season 1 (for AJC and SM) and season 2 (for KV).  So you could easily make the argument that Garcia and JJ were getting slighted in earlier seasons and being treated as recurring when they were just as much a part of the main cast as everyone else. And I remember reading on the old TWOP boards pre-season 6 from a majority of posters that more screen time for both of them would be welcomed. I get that in hindsight a lot of fans prefer Prentiss to JJ and would rather still have her, but at the time of their firings people were equally pissed about both of them being let go. Let's not revise history here just because we feel differently several years later. JJ circa 2010 was pretty well liked.

[BookWoman56]

 

MCatry:

Winner: unsubs, with 5 hours, 16 minutes and 13 seconds

Runner up: JJ, with 4 hours, 21 minutes and 48 seconds

Third place goes for Hotch, with 4 hours, 18 minutes and 34 seconds

Fourth place goes for Rossi, with 4 hours, 8 minutes and 34 seconds

Fifth place goes for Morgan, with 3 hours, 54 minutes and 16 seconds

Sixth place goes for Kate, with 3 hours, 25 minutes and 12 seconds

Penultimate, Reid, with two hours, 55 minutes and 52 seconds

Biggest loser: Garcia, with two hours, 0 minutes and 24 seconds

What it should have been, IMO:

Major profilers and administrators:

Rossi: 4 hours

Reid: 4 hours

Kate: 4 hours

Hotch: 4 hours

Action figures:

JJ: 3 hours

Morgan: 3 hours

Supporting characters:

Garcia: 2 hours

Unsubs: 2 hours

 

My thinking is that more time should be spent on the profilers who actually profile. A little less time on the so-called profilers who mainly kick down doors and/or shoot people. Much less time on the tech analyst. Least time of all on the unsubs.

 

With JLH gone, I’d like to think that Reid would get more screen time, but I’m not delusional. I think the best I can hope for is that the “extra” screen time will be more or less evenly divided among the existing profilers, with no large increases in time for JJ or Morgan, both of whom are on screen far too much already for my tastes. I am not overly fond of Hotch, either, but see his role more as the person who manages the team, not necessarily as the person doing a lot of profiling.  I’m sorry to lose JLH, because I thought Kate made sense as an actual profiler, whereas with JJ I can’t get past a couple of aspects of canon: her being asked in North Mammon if she wanted to be a profiler and firmly saying that she did not, and her being so traumatized by the dog attack, etc. in Revelations that she couldn’t function and nearly shot Prentiss by accident. She seemed so emotionally fragile during that episode, and so unable to handle the stress of physical violence. I just don’t have the capacity for the kind of cognitive dissonance that would allow me to acknowledge that JJ is unable to handle the psychological stress of a dog attack and having to kill those dogs, but she’s now such a crack field agent that she was handpicked to go hunt down a major terrorist.

 

I am unhappy at the prospect of no solid female profiler on the team, but I don’t necessarily want them to replace Kate either.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And I remember reading on the old TWOP boards pre-season 6 from a majority of posters that more screen time for both of them would be welcomed. I get that in hindsight a lot of fans prefer Prentiss to JJ and would rather still have her, but at the time of their firings people were equally pissed about both of them being let go. Let's not revise history here just because we feel differently several years later. JJ circa 2010 was pretty well liked.

 

What you say is true, but what's also true is that when Paget first showed up almost no one wanted her around, ironically because they were afraid Emily would "steal" screen time away from JJ and Garcia. Prentiss is fairly beloved now, obviously, but its also kind of not the whole truth since what really happened is that JJ and Garcia's fans must have decided that Emily (or Morticia Sue, if you prefer) didn't need to die in a fire after all.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[MCatry]

MCatry, I appreciate you taking the time to get these statistics for us. I'm very surprised. It certainly didn't feel like Hotch got that much screen time this season. And it actually felt to me that Reid was getting a bit more to do this season, although still not enough. The only thing I'm certain of is that there is way too much unsub and JJ.

To be honest, I was also surprised when I got the figures for Hotch. I think our perception is also influenced on how important a character is for a given case. In that sense, I think the word analysis performed here by another poster is pretty interesting as well, specially in combination wit screen time.

While doing this count I became pretty aware that Reid is used more visually than verbally. For instance, in many round tables or plane talks he is just shown as being there, to then drop either an obscure useless fact or a dumb question. I am sure these patterns also influence our perception of a character not really being there. That had happened a lot for a hotch and Morgan two, which is a pity, because these three were the original leads of the show, besides Gideon.

[MCatry]

In defense of those three characters, those actors have been getting billed as being part of the main cast since season 1 (for AJC and SM) and season 2 (for KV). So you could easily make the argument that Garcia and JJ were getting slighted in earlier seasons and being treated as recurring when they were just as much a part of the main cast as everyone else. And I remember reading on the old TWOP boards pre-season 6 from a majority of posters that more screen time for both of them would be welcomed. I get that in hindsight a lot of fans prefer Prentiss to JJ and would rather still have her, but at the time of their firings people were equally pissed about both of them being let go. Let's not revise history here just because we feel differently several years later. JJ circa 2010 was pretty well liked.

Being part of a regular cast is not the same as being considered (and billed) as the main cast. Higher salaries nowadays go for both Gibson and Mantegna (and I guess Hewitt too, judging by they way she is placed in the titles). Then the second highest salaries were and are the ones of Moore and Gubler. Lower salaries for both Cook and Vangsness was a source of conflict before season nine, with both actresses asking to have salaries closer to their colleagues. They even said they would quit, and the CBS said it was fine for them. In the end, their pretensions were lowered, and the CBS worked out an agreement with both of them.

Conclusion: for the CBS, and probably also for the audience too, there are some members of the cast that are more valuable (now, and for future shows): the ones in that pack are the main cast. Everyone else, regular or recurring, is expendable.

Edited May 18, 2015 by MCatry

[Guesswht]

season 10 episode 16

Unsubs 22 minutes and 4 seconds

Morgan 14 minutes and 23 seconds

Kate 12 minutes and 49 seconds

Rossi 12 minutes and 1 seconds

Hotch 10 minutes and 5 seconds

Reid 7 minutes and 21 seconds

JJ 6 minutes and 3 seconds

Garcia 1 minute and 2 seconds

 

season 10 episode 17

unsubs 15 minutes and 20 seconds

Kate 10 minutes and 50 seconds

Morgan 8 minutes and 21 seconds

Rossi 7 minutes and 12 seconds

JJ 6 minutes and 20 seconds

Hotch 5 minutes and 34 seconds

Reid 5 minutes and 3 seconds

Garcia 4 minutes and 45 seconds

 

Extra notes:

So, Kate tells everybody (boss included) that she is pregnant.

And then she is participating actively in a raid?

I’ve read many complaints about why JJ was participating in the unsub chase of the week while pregnant along the last episode, but at least she didn’t tell anyone about it, so that’s on her, but that stuff about Kate?

I missed Reid in the staged delivery of the profile.

 

Kate has 2x more screen time than JJ ...

but JJ had more screen time in s10 than Kate had.

w t _??? ??? ???

 

 

Final results for season ten

    Winner: unsubs, with 5 hours, 16 minutes and 13 seconds

    Runner up: JJ, with 4 hours, 21 minutes and 48 seconds

    Third place goes for Hotch, with 4 hours, 18 minutes and 34 seconds

    Fourth place goes for Rossi, with 4 hours, 8 minutes and 34 seconds

    Fifth place goes for Morgan, with 3 hours, 54 minutes and 16 seconds

    Sixth place goes for Kate, with 3 hours, 25 minutes and 12 seconds

    Penultimate, Reid, with two hours, 55 minutes and 52 seconds

    Biggest loser: Garcia, with two hours, 0 minutes and 24 seconds

Well, for me it looks like this:

idc for unsubs

1. - Kate - 4 hours 23 mins

2. - Hotch - 3 hours 54 mins

3. - JJ - 3 hours 26 mins

4. - Rossi - 3 hours 19 mins

5. - Morgan - 2 hours 47 mins

6. - Reid - 2 hours 13 mins

7. - Garcia - 1 hours 30 mins

 

For me Meg's screen time = Kate's screen time. I'm sick of both of them. It's not even sure that the 6 original cast members are coming back for s11, but they wasted the season finale on them anyway.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Kate has 2x more screen time than JJ ...

but JJ had more screen time in s10 than Kate had.

w t _??? ??? ???

 

I don't think its as simplistic as that. If it is true that Kate's screen time exceeded JJ's this season, then as one of the few but faithful Alex Blake fans, I say that its by God about time. I mean, I get it, you resent Kate because she exists and/or because she's keeping JJ from being front and center all the time, but let's not act as if Super Tough Ninja Barbie hasn't worn the ruby combat boots almost exclusively before this when it comes to being up in the camera's grill. Just the fact that she got the totally contradictory The Forever People after Erica said that the book opened in 200 was closed tells me pretty much everything there is to be said about who the favorite is, and it ain't JLH.

[Old Dog]

Kate has 2x more screen time than JJ ...

but JJ had more screen time in s10 than Kate had.

w t _??? ??? ???

 

 

Well, for me it looks like this:

idc for unsubs

1. - Kate - 4 hours 23 mins

2. - Hotch - 3 hours 54 mins

3. - JJ - 3 hours 26 mins

4. - Rossi - 3 hours 19 mins

5. - Morgan - 2 hours 47 mins

6. - Reid - 2 hours 13 mins

7. - Garcia - 1 hours 30 mins

 

For me Meg's screen time = Kate's screen time. I'm sick of both of them. It's not even sure that the 6 original cast members are coming back for s11, but they wasted the season finale on them anyway.

I have complete confidence in MCatry's figures as coming from an objective and unbiased standpoint. And I "liked" your post in error I'm afraid.

 

Question for mods - if I click the "like" icon in error how can I remove that "like". I just did this and I totally disagree with the post so want it removed.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Old Dog