S03.E19: The Once and Future Flash

[Trini]

On 4/28/2017 at 0:23 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I just don't understand why anything Barry did in the future mattered.  He took back his lessons.  Don't abandon Joe or push friends away. So the only reason helping the future would be insurance is if he thought he'd probably crap out on keeping his promise again, lol.  I wish they had instead made Top and Mirror Master steal something he needed to stop Savitar and thus he needed to get the team back together and that inspires Emo flash.  At least make it make sense.  They could have gone through all the same steps and reveals, but it wouldn't just be for nothing.    

I had the same thought too. I guess they needed a 'win' in this episode, or it would have been 95% depressing instead of 75%.

[Potanical Pardon]

I just binged Episodes 12-19 to catch up from negligence. My running theory on Savitar's identity is still the same - Eddie Thawne. Plus without the Megatron mask/helmet, his costume is totally Cobalt Blue, and the Philosopher's Stone could be the Cobalt Blue gem. He knows everyone from Season 1 who he listed off having a grudge with. Everyone after he just knows from being from the future. 

I still stand by the idea that Barry's screwing with time and creating Flashpoint created enough alternate timelines that allowed original recipe Eobard Thawne to exist again plus his whole realization scene of how it could be when he dropped Barry off at home after returning from the past and Flashpoint by his own power. The current timeline's Eddie who did shoot himself that went up in that vortex got thrown to the future and another future Eobard probably told him about what happened after he sacrificed himself, as well as manipulating that family tree towards the traditional family feud between the Thawnes and the Allens for millennia. Plus the whole Cobalt Blue - Thawne family tradition, like Flash is to the Wests and Allens.

If this turns out right, I am glad, though, that they've strayed from the mythos in not making the original non-RF Thawne rival a separated at birth twin of Barry Allen who was raised by criminals.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Potanical Pardon

[DearEvette]

I would love it if it were Eddie.  And if so, then his fixation on Iris becomes so much more than just about making Barry suffer.  But... the only off note is Killer Frost's reaction to him.  If it were Eddie then the look of reverence she gives him when he reveals himself is all wrong.  Caitlyn barely ever said two words to Eddie.  It would make more sense if she had given him a look of surprise and then appreciation like, "oh this is too good not to be involved in." or some smart-ass smirk or something.  But maybe that is just because of DP's acting choices not being great?

Speaking of, I hate how dime store Eeeevil she makes Killer Frost.  The sing-song voice is villain acting 101.  So overdone and obvious.  It is bad enough that she turns immediately evil instead of just cold, but then she had to even crank that up so that is it over the top.  Theoretically KF should have been a real interesting character, but instead she is a cartoon.  Odd because the Earth-2 version of KF was not this mustache-twirly.  Maybe because DP was having more fun with her and not trying to infuse her with all this angsty meaning and  what-not.

[Katsullivan]

12 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Speaking of, I hate how dime store Eeeevil she makes Killer Frost.  The sing-song voice is villain acting 101.  So overdone and obvious.  It is bad enough that she turns immediately evil instead of just cold, but then she had to even crank that up so that is it over the top. 

I'm going to throw in a contrary opinion here and say that while the show is now doing a bait-and-switch "meta powers make Caitlin evil" for the Killer Frost arc, they've actually been slow-burning Caitlin - not Killer Frost - but Dr. Caitlin Snow herself turning evil since the Pilot. They ended up chickening out for reasons that have already been stated in this forum, but before then, there were clear hints of Killer Frost before Caitlin got powers. She has always been a true neutral, not invested in being a hero, or willing to sacrifice herself or her interests to help others. She's been shown to be literally cruel when upset. Even as recently as 3.07, we've seen this. 

Even on E2, Killer Frost was affected by the words that E1 Barry & E1 Cisco's used based on their relationship to Caitlin Snow. 

So the show might now want to tell us that Killer Frost is a different person from Caitlin Snow (because it's clearly just hitting them that if you turn your pet character into a villain, you have to, you know, make her do villainous things and eventually have the other characters eventually treat her like a villains)  - but they've been showing us so far, is that Killer Frost is Caitlin Snow.  

Edited May 1, 2017 by Katsullivan

[mac123x]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:57 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

Joe is a detective, so I would have thought that he would have caught on quicker that Barry at the cemetery was not 2024

"Hang on, you don't sound like you smoked 2 packs of Camel unflitereds before lunch -- you're a different Barry!"

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 8:32 AM, DearEvette said:

But... the only off note is Killer Frost's reaction to him.  If it were Eddie then the look of reverence she gives him when he reveals himself is all wrong. 

I would have liked it if her reaction upon seeing who Savitar is echoed the inevitable viewer reaction: "oh, come on!" disbelief. 

[johntfs]

On 4/30/2017 at 4:50 AM, Potanical Pardon said:

I just binged Episodes 12-19 to catch up from negligence. My running theory on Savitar's identity is still the same - Eddie Thawne. Plus without the Megatron mask/helmet, his costume is totally Cobalt Blue, and the Philosopher's Stone could be the Cobalt Blue gem. He knows everyone from Season 1 who he listed off having a grudge with. Everyone after he just knows from being from the future. 

I have two basic problems with this.  First Eddie chose to sacrifice himself out of love for Iris to protect her.  I can't see him murdering her.  Second, Eddie died, for real, before going into the vortex or whatever.

Ronnie was still alive when he got sucked into the vortex.  He was married to Caitlin.  He had a life in front of him.  Because he was helping Barry contain something that Barry caused, Ronnie lost his life.  Caitlin moved on (twice, once with a fucking serial killer).  Barry gets his happy life with Iris.  Ronnie even saw himself replaced by Jax as Firestorm.  In every way that matters, Ronnie has been forgotten and replaced.  So, I can how he could be twisted into Savitar.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, doram said:

Based on KF's devotion, I think the only options are: Ronnie, Cisco, Julian, Barry or Hunter Zoloman in that order. 

Based on that same devotion, I can't see any of the last four as possibilities.  KF chased Cisco and the others into a holding cell and seemed about to kill them.  She was about to flash-freeze Julian with a kiss of icy death.  She clearly dislikes Barry.  As for Hunter Zoloman, KF has Caitlin's memories of the time that Hunter slaughtered the Earth-2 version of her.  There are plenty of reactions that Caitlin/KF would have to one of those four being Savitar, but I can't see instant devotion being one of them.

[RedVitC]

New ep tonight and I’m finally posting my thoughts on this one…It's not really fresh in my mind anymore, so I'll just type up the things I remember. I haven’t read the responses for the most part, so sorry if some of this has come up already. I liked the episode, but I didn’t love it like I thought I would.

Things I liked:

-I liked seeing that Iris is the glue for their little family.

-That vault scene with the two Barry's was incredibly sad, but well done (I don't think they put in future Barry pushing our Barry, or maybe I missed it?)

-I've said it before, but Iris really is very selfless. This episode alone she was thinking of Joe and Wally and even Caitlin, even though she's in the most danger of all. One day I'll probably write a meta on Iris' character emotions. It's pretty interesting to see how she reacts to different things. She's a very warm and kind character, and so seemingly open that sometimes you miss just how much she bottles up things. Pushes down her emotions. Or how she place herself last. It's why I like seeing Barry making her such a priority and how it warmed me to see the team rallying to save her, because it's not something she seems to be able to do for herself. (I was happy to see her express some of her fears this season, and I hope we get to see more of her pov in these last four episodes.)

-On a smaller note, I liked how domestic that first scene with Barry and Iris was

 

Things that were so so:

-No plan for the new team Flash: I'm not sure what they thought was going to happen when Barry went to confront Top and Mirror Master again. They didn't seem to have any plan in place to make sure Top wouldn't successfully use her powers on Barry.

- I hope Killer Frost is not going to turn out to be one of those villains that blames everyone else, or that the narrative never lets take responsibility. When she told Julian that he should have worked harder to find a cure for her I was like…here we go (to be fair, perhaps that wasn't meant as blame but her making fun of him?). And then later the team acting like it was 100% on them to keep her from being lost. But perhaps the way they end the season will make the storyline make more sense. Killer Frost reminds me a bit of Black Siren.

-It was interesting to see the different future versions, but none of them felt quite right to me. quite like them. I'm not sure how to explain it. But maybe that was the point, since this was more of a worst case possible future scenario.

[RedVitC]

On 4/26/2017 at 6:31 PM, tennisgurl said:

. At least when Oliver is angsty, he usually takes it out on criminals or something, or pushes his friends away for what he thinks is their own good. Hell, just last episode, he had a total mental breakdown about being brainwashed into believing he was a serial killer, and he got his shit together in like three days! When your making Oliver look mentally stable, you know its a bad day.

 

To be fair, I don't really remember the details, but in that future legends episode he did go into hiding for years and had to be convinced to save the city again by Sara and Diggle jr (who he let think he was dead). I've been rewatching some of the old Arrow seasons, and seeing them in such short succession, he sure seems to want to quit being arrow (or have doubts) a lot. Or maybe it just feels that way. What is interesting, though, is that I recently saw the episode where the team thinks Oliver is dead and they have to find out for themselves why this is also their mission. I think something like that might have been appropriate for this episode, rather then them all being: 'Hey, Barry's back!'. (I know there was more to it and that I'm painting it in a very simple way here. Iris dying and the events with Savitar, the splintering of the team, broke all of them and I get why the show let our Barry rally them)

[tennisgurl]

Very legit points @RedVitC very legit points. Why I think I tend to cut Oliver a bit more slack is because he started his whole crusade as basically a way to function with severe PTSD (that's how I've always read it anyway) and he started his super hero career as a violent vigilante who killed tons of people, and he would go on to feel awful about that, and his crusade would become more healthy, and less blood thirsty. I think that's one of the reasons he tends to stop more often, because he, on some level, thinks he is a sick man and is fight against evil comes from a bad place. Oliver can be a HUGE drama queen and frequently selfish, but I can understand his break downs a bit more. Barry, on the other hand, became a superhero just because he wanted to help people. Yeah he wanted to get justice for his dad, but the first season Barry was a basically sweet, happy guy who faught crime and had fun with it. His crusade was always coming from a positive place, so him giving it all up when Iris died just seemed super depressing and rather selfish. Honestly, I'm not even that angry that he gave up fighting crime. That's not really heroic, but its understandable, after seeing the woman he loved brutally murdered. But he totally shut out his family and friends, who could have probably used his support or just his company, especially Joe, who lost Iris AND Wally, more or less, and than his other son basically ignores him. Even if he couldn't be The Flash, he couldn't just stop by for coffee?

Maybe this is all just rambles, and I don't want it to seem like I don't like or have sympathy for Barry, because I do on both counts, or that I don't think Oliver can be an idiot, because he can, it just seems less in character for Barry to turn into some emo loner instead of either fighting crime even harder, or just giving up on crime fighting and just being a sad normal guy.

[Trini]

I agree that it seems a bit out of character for Barry to abandon his family, but at least FutureBarry gave an explanation that his world was shattered, and stopping Savitar became his sole focus. And they kinda gave us hint of sadsack Barry when he and Iris were broken up that one week.

But now that you mention Oliver, I wonder if he tried to get through to Barry in that possible future?

[RedVitC]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Very legit points @RedVitC very legit points. Why I think I tend to cut Oliver a bit more slack is because he started his whole crusade as basically a way to function with severe PTSD (that's how I've always read it anyway) and he started his super hero career as a violent vigilante who killed tons of people, and he would go on to feel awful about that, and his crusade would become more healthy, and less blood thirsty. I think that's one of the reasons he tends to stop more often, because he, on some level, thinks he is a sick man and is fight against evil comes from a bad place. Oliver can be a HUGE drama queen and frequently selfish, but I can understand his break downs a bit more. Barry, on the other hand, became a superhero just because he wanted to help people. Yeah he wanted to get justice for his dad, but the first season Barry was a basically sweet, happy guy who faught crime and had fun with it. His crusade was always coming from a positive place, so him giving it all up when Iris died just seemed super depressing and rather selfish. Honestly, I'm not even that angry that he gave up fighting crime. That's not really heroic, but its understandable, after seeing the woman he loved brutally murdered. But he totally shut out his family and friends, who could have probably used his support or just his company, especially Joe, who lost Iris AND Wally, more or less, and than his other son basically ignores him. Even if he couldn't be The Flash, he couldn't just stop by for coffee?

Maybe this is all just rambles, and I don't want it to seem like I don't like or have sympathy for Barry, because I do on both counts, or that I don't think Oliver can be an idiot, because he can, it just seems less in character for Barry to turn into some emo loner instead of either fighting crime even harder, or just giving up on crime fighting and just being a sad normal guy.

No worries! I totally understand Oliver comes from a different place than Barry (and I didn't say what I said to get at Oliver. I do like that guy ;).

I didn't expect him to push especially Joe away, so I guess I agree to a point that it seemed out of character, but grief can be a strange thing. I think for me it's not just Iris dying even though that was a very, very big part of it. I saw a gifset the other day that showed parallels of Barry's mom, Barry's dad, and Iris dying  (it was another one, but this one is similar http://flashallens.tumblr.com/post/160132458298/after-i-lost-my-mom-and-then-my-dad-i-was ). It's basically the third time, all stabbed, all dying as they tell him hey love him. Two of those times were because those speedsters were time travelling and messing up the past. And this time there was no Iris like the other two times. I feel like him just being done and initially not wanting anything to do with Flash actions/speedsters/the speed force anymore (and anyone that reminds him of it) is not that far out. We've seen several characters in the flarrow universe walk away after the death of a loved one. Eventually they all came back because something prompted them to. I think for Barry he got stuck in the pattern, and after having pushed everyone away, it was really hard to go back to them without some external force. So he let the situation go on year after year and let himself wallow. Until one day he meets his former self that reminds him of his promise and prompts him to go back.

[Trini]

11 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

And this time there was no Iris like the other two times.

I think this is the key. She was the one he should have been able to save, and without her he lost all hope.

[SodaforceMaster]

Does Barry have to, at any opportunity, wuss out, go superemo and prove he's a crap hero that gives up after a loss? Why would the team trust him at all? If I were Cisco I'd be looking into giving his speedforce powers to someone who isn't such a quitter. Better writing would come up with a better reason he punked out on Joe.