The Son - General Discussion

[nodorothyparker]

I think the character's name is supposed to be Louis, but I could be wrong.  He was one of the guys who was talking big about the "Mexican problem" and arguing for the white boys club to go do something about it.  Surprise surprise it's one thing to talk about wiping people out and another entirely to actually do it.  I assumed Phineas killed him as a way of tying up loose ends and making sure his attack of conscience didn't lead to him to him yapping to outsiders that it wasn't a two-sided fight that got out of hand.

All three of the kids were in Austin with Sally.  

The character I'm curious about heading into the second season is Neptune, the former buffalo soldier who went along with all this.  The camera seemed to lingering on his reaction shots a lot even as he was helping with the cleanup.  He wasn't showing any outward signs of wavering, but it's hard to imagine that as a black man he doesn't have some thoughts on now having sided with what's essentially a white citizens council to twice mow down large numbers of Mexicans or Tejanos, in the latter case not actually posing any threat.

[Ohwell]

Just read about an interview with Sam Elliott.  I think he would have been perfect for the role.  Pierce just doesn't do it for me.

[nodorothyparker]

Sam Elliott would have been a better fit.  There's no point while I'm watching this that I'm not aware that he's Pierce Brosnan struggling with the accent and characterization.  Which sucks because the rest of the cast ranges from good enough to very good.

[Medicine Crow]

Just now, nodorothyparker said:

Sam Elliott would have been a better fit.  There's no point while I'm watching this that I'm not aware that he's Pierce Brosnan struggling with the accent and characterization.  Which sucks because the rest of the cast ranges from good enough to very good.

NOW you're talking my language!!!  Sam Elliott would have been perfect, but I'm not sure he would be able to do the riding, etc.  (He'll be 73 in August.)  After seeing him on The Talk, his gait was labored &, maybe he's shy, but his conversation was stilted, at best.  (I love him & even more after he wouldn't ride in the Calgary Stampede Parade unless his wife was right beside him.)

[Ohwell]

3 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

Sam Elliott would have been perfect, but I'm not sure he would be able to do the riding, etc.  (He'll be 73 in August.)  After seeing him on The Talk, his gait was labored &, maybe he's shy, but his conversation was stilted, at best. 

Actually, I think his gait and maybe even his stilted conversation would have been even a better fit since Eli's supposed to be around 80 on the show.   I can just picture Sam on the show with a slower walk, maybe even a hitch--and a drawl.

I guess Eli is supposed to be "vigorous" for his age, but I just couldn't buy him galloping around on his horse and romping in bed with that woman at 80, especially back then.   Pierce Brosnan is just too "lively," for lack of a better word.  Not to mention that accent. 

[Dowel Jones]

Well, it's back, and they're still as craven as they were.

Just a note on technology, that was a tri-cone drill bit shown on the oil well.  It was not invented until 1933.  The two cone bit, similar, but obviously different in appearance, would have been around in 1910-1915 or so.  Likely it still would have chewed right through the concrete and even the steel pieces, as it was designed to chew through solid granite.  It changed the oil business dramatically, and made Howard Hughes Sr. a wealthy man.

[nodorothyparker]

I didn't even realize the show had come back.  So either AMC's just burning off what it has in the can without much fanfare or I've completely missed it while everything else I watch there is on hiatus. 

[Dowel Jones]

It was still on "record" and showed up on my DVR one evening.  That's the only reason I knew about it.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Glad to see everyone hasn't abandoned this silly show. In its Final Season! 😑

My reactions as I watched:

Funny how the have Pete talking in that raspy voice like Eli now, as if it's a genetic trait instead of Brosnan trying to sound like an 80-year old.

Being in a Mexican prison must've done Pete some good. He came back with a nice six-pack.

Heh, that other oilman was trying to drink Eli's milkshake. And then there was indeed blood.

Wait, what? Was Pete doing some kind of autoerotic asphyxiation thing?

[Razzberry]

Great job promoting the show, AMC.  I had almost forgotten about it to be honest, and didn't realize there would be a second season.  Now I'm two episodes behind already.

[AuntiePam]

I had no idea this show had a second season.  I FF everything so I don't see ads, but the other night I stopped to watch an ad and lo and behold, here's The Son, again.  I had taken it off the DVR, assuming it would be cancelled. 

Glad to see some other, um, fans? 

[Dowel Jones]

For anyone who is interested, the song that Jeananne is singing while she is painting the church is called "The Devil Made Texas".  The full length is far too long to paste here, but it's a funny look at life in Texas. Pay no attention to the ending.

[Dowel Jones]

So, it looks like we're heading to a confrontation between Ulysses and Jeananne, if I have the plots straight.  He's the grandson of Pedro Garcia, through his daughter, correct? Hence the name change.  And she's the granddaughter of Eli.  Looks like everyone else is done gone. 

By the way, Ulysses, you probably deserved to get fired.  I would never, ever ask a powerful employer who their father was.  You got to stay in your lane sometimes.

I think the tribal plot has run its course, except to show how Eli and Ingrid got away.  I'm not really interested.  And that was some terrible acting by Brosnan, both when he is begging Ingrid to tell him the story again, and during his dream sequence.

[S.Batts]

I don't think Ulysses is Maria's son, I think that he would be Maria's grandson, making Pedro his great great grandfather.  Maria possibly had a daughter, who married another Mexican, hence Ulysses different last name.   

I've always wondered who Pete and Phinneas' mother was.  Did they ever tell us?   I was thinking that Ingrid was possibly their mother, but after the last show, she's definitely not.  Their mother was definitely not Prairie Flower. 

I"m not a fan of Phinneas at all but I couldn't help but feel sorry for him.  When he broke down when Sally and the kids came was very sad.  

[Ohwell]

17 minutes ago, S.Batts said:

I don't think Ulysses is Maria's son, I think that he would be Maria's grandson, making Pedro his great great grandfather.  Maria possibly had a daughter, who married another Mexican, hence Ulysses different last name.   

I don't think Ulysses is Maria's son either but I'm confused.  Pedro was Maria's father, right?  So let's say Maria had a daughter, then Pedro would be the daughter's grandfather.  Then if the daughter married and had Ulysses, then Pedro would be his great grandfather.

*scratches head* 

[S.Batts]

20 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I don't think Ulysses is Maria's son either but I'm confused.  Pedro was Maria's father, right?  So let's say Maria had a daughter, then Pedro would be the daughter's grandfather.  Then if the daughter married and had Ulysses, then Pedro would be his great grandfather.

*scratches head* 

Yes, exactly.  Ulysses would be Pedro's great great grandson.  

[Ohwell]

Great grandson

[S.Batts]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:18 AM, Ohwell said:

Great grandson

Yes...oops!!  Too many "greats" there!!

[Dowel Jones]

Ol' Eli seems to be losing it in his obsession to keep his empire going.  Although that massacre was pretty scary, I gotta lay some blame on the Standard Oil team for going into the lion's den without so much as a chair and a whip.  And of course his kids picked the acre with the hardest ground in Texas to dig their graves.

Obviously Ingrid escapes death; the only question is how.  I fear it does not look good for the remaining band of Comanches that stayed behind.

I tend to think of conspiracies when a show involves powerful groups of men.  The look that Eli gave to Pete when he demanded his clothes after the burial suggests he might be willing to throw him to the wolves when the cops get there.

[Ohwell]

That was some straight up gangster shit that Eli & Co. pulled on those Standard Oil guys.  I was impressed.

I thought Eli demanded Pete's son's clothes, or is the son named Pete too?

Edited June 10, 2019 by Ohwell

[S.Batts]

15 hours ago, Ohwell said:

That was some straight up gangster shit that Eli & Co. pulled on those Standard Oil guys.  I was impressed.

I thought Eli demanded Pete's son's clothes, or is the son named Pete too?

It was the oldest grandson's clothes, Charles that Eli demanded.  He walked into the house shirtless when his Mother came out with a gun.  

I sort of figured that those guys from Standard Oil were on borrowed time.  But dam Eli...that was quite the blood fest.  

Does Eli know that Pete gave Maria the heads up to get out of town and hide?  

No scenes from the present time.   All we know from the Comanche time is that Eli and Ingrid both live.   

[Ohwell]

4 hours ago, S.Batts said:

It was the oldest grandson's clothes, Charles that Eli demanded.  He walked into the house shirtless when his Mother came out with a gun. 

Thanks, I didn't remember the grandson's name.

I definitely think Eli suspects that Pete gave Maria a heads up.  I know Eli is ruthless, and he loves Pete as his son, but it is difficult for Eli to deal with him because he knows he can't trust him.     

[Joimiaroxeu]

I know it was probably a "common language" thing but seeing the two Native women from different tribes speaking Spanish to each other bothered me. I wonder how common that really was, even in the southwest?

[Dowel Jones]

Seeing as how the Spanish were making inroads in the Southwest in the early 1600's, that would have given the two groups ample time by the late 1800's to adapt languages.  That being said, neither the Commanche or Apache tribes (as portrayed here) would have anything to do with European communities if they could avoid it.

So, in line with previous discussions about Ulysses's parentage, anyone want to take a guess about the possibility of Mariah having a daughter, now that she's coupled with Pete in the cabin?  Maybe Ulysses has some McCullough heritage in him. 

Poor Jeananne - "I grew up in a family of liars."

[Joimiaroxeu]

So doesn't it seem more likely that the women would've known just enough of each other's tribal languages to converse that way versus speaking Spanish (or English?). I guess it was a shortcut the producers to took make the scene work but it felt wrong to me. But then, this is the show that has Pierce playing the world's most spry 80-year-old so...

[cdnalor]

36 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So doesn't it seem more likely that the women would've known just enough of each other's tribal languages to converse that way versus speaking Spanish (or English?). I guess it was a shortcut the producers to took make the scene work but it felt wrong to me. But then, this is the show that has Pierce playing the world's most spry 80-year-old so...

Maybe Spanish was seen as a more "neutral" language to be used between rival tribes so as not to give an advantage to either one?

[Ohwell]

23 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Maybe Ulysses has some McCullough heritage in him. 

That's my guess.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ohwell
Forgot the apostrophe

[S.Batts]

Dam...Prairie Flower...couldn't you have just walked away?

It wouldn't surprise me that Ulysses has some McCullough in him.   Pete may actually be his grandfather.   

Only two shows left, I wonder how they are going to wrap this all up?  Part of me thinks that Eli is going to meet his maker.   He's double crossed way too many people in that town.   I never read the books so this is only speculation on my part.   

[Ohwell]

Prairie Flower shouldn't have put her bow and arrow down first. If she had just waited a little longer in the standoff with the little girl, I think the girl would have put hers down because she was wavering.  I thought the Indian funeral was moving though.

I haven't read the book either but I hope Ulysses winds up getting the land in the end.   

I don't think Eli will make it out alive but I also hope that Pete and Maria get killed off.  They deserve each other.

[S.Batts]

I"m really disappointed in Pete.   I get that he loves Maria but come on?  Leaving your children again!!  Especially after he told them that he'd never leave them again.   I don't think that Pete and Maria will be killed off, especially Maria since she is the only surviving Garcia and we know that Ulysses is a Garcia descendant.  Pete may have already planted the seed in her so really, he's not needed anymore.  

I'm wondering now if Comanche Eli and Ingrid will now leave the Comanches and make their way back into the white world?   Why would he stay now that Prairie Flower is gone?   

[ctlady]

Based upon the previews for next week where ElderEli tells JeannAnn 'this will all be yours someday', my speculation is this:

Spoiler

Eli 'wills' all the land to JeanAnn immediately so that if Pete decides to side with Maria against the family to get the land back, he'd basically be taking food out of daughter's mouth.  If Eli has any hand left to play, it's guilt. It would also explain the animosity ElderJeanAnn has for her father in the future

I also loathe Pete and Maria with the fire of 1,000 suns.  They're both homewreckers who deserve each other - and nothing else in life.  She must be one heck of a lay for him to go back to her after she ditched him in Mexico and leaving him to rot as a prisoner

[S.Batts]

1 hour ago, ctlady said:

Based upon the previews for next week where ElderEli tells JeannAnn 'this will all be yours someday', my speculation is this:

  Hide contents

Eli 'wills' all the land to JeanAnn immediately so that if Pete decides to side with Maria against the family to get the land back, he'd basically be taking food out of daughter's mouth.  If Eli has any hand left to play, it's guilt. It would also explain the animosity ElderJeanAnn has for her father in the future

I also loathe Pete and Maria with the fire of 1,000 suns.  They're both homewreckers who deserve each other - and nothing else in life.  She must be one heck of a lay for him to go back to her after she ditched him in Mexico and leaving him to rot as a prisoner

You are probably right about Eli "willing" everything to Jeananne.  You can tell that she's his favourite and the most level headed of his three grandchildren.   That makes sense now when Ulysses mentions Pete or did he say "your father" to elder Jeananne and she was not happy with that.  Which ended up leading to Ulysses getting fired.  

I missed the preview for next week.   Maybe I can find it online. 

[Dowel Jones]

Well, it looks like things are winding down.  It sounds like Eli might have betrayed the Commanche clan to ingratiate himself with the soldiers, which is right up his wheelhouse in the future.

Jeananne knows well the adage 'When the legend meets the truth, print the legend." She's glossing over Eli's actual history by making a big donation to some historical library.  I hope Ulysses manages to bring out the truth before he goes down, if that's to be. 

Eli, Brad Pitt called.  He wants his bear back.

[Ohwell]

I thought Eli left the Comanches because he was worried about the Comanches' survival, they needed food, so he was willing to make the deal with the army.  Also, after losing Prairie Flower I think he felt like there was no longer any reason to stay with the group, even though he would miss his "father."  When the guy who was riding with him who took the supplies back to his people, basically told him to ignore the father's advice and just do what he wanted to do, I think that's what Eli did.  Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but I didn't see a betrayal.   

[Joimiaroxeu]

I don't believe for a minute that someone like Eli would've made his granddaughter his primary heir over his grandsons.

I also don't believe someone would provoke a bear into killing them. Odds are good Eli would've been conscious through a lot if it. IMO. there would've been nothing brave or honorable about deliberately putting himself through that kind of physical suffering unless he thought he was doing penance for his multitude of sins.

Those guys who came to protect Maria are kind of late to the party, aren't they?

Quote

Eli , Brad Pitt called.  He wants his bear back.

I think Leo DiCaprio wants it back. All I could think about in that scene is whether the bear would try to have sex with Eli. 😉

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but I didn't see a betrayal. 

I was thinking that because he told the captain "I know their routes, their campsites, etc."  It seemed like he was setting himself up to be the Army's guide in rounding up or killing off the band later on.

Quote

I think Leo DiCaprio wants it back.

Yeah, him too.  That bear's got some work to do.  I was referring to the last scene in Legends of the Fall.  It was almost a direct copy of the action and the logic.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Dowel Jones

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I was thinking that because he told the captain "I know their routes, their campsites, etc."  It seemed like he was setting himself up to be the Army's guide in rounding up or killing off the band later on.

I do remember him saying that but I thought he was bluffing just to raise his potential value so that the Army would give more supplies to the Cheyenne, and what information he would give them would be false or misleading.  At least I hope that was his intent.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I also don't believe someone would provoke a bear into killing them. Odds are good Eli would've been conscious through a lot if it. IMO. there would've been nothing brave or honorable about deliberately putting himself through that kind of physical suffering unless he thought he was doing penance for his multitude of sins.

Yeah, I called BS on Jeananne's "story." 

[S.Batts]

Not buying it as well that Eli died that way.  Most likely with a bullet in his head.  He had/has way too many enemies.  I wouldn't mind seeing Maria pull the trigger.  

One show left and it seems like there is still so much to get through.   Not sure how they are going to pull everything off.  Another season would have been good.  

I hope Ulysses gets the Garcia land back.  Jeananne sure is afraid of him.  

[Dowel Jones]

I'm not sure what Ulysses had planned by his appearance at the gala.  He had that pistol on his person.  Was he planning on shooting her, or is the pistol (a McCullough heirloom) some piece of evidence of Eli's bad behavior?  Either way, if they had caught him at the ballroom, he  would likely be in deep shit.

[S.Batts]

He probably had that pistol with him as proof that his heritage is also part McCullough and that pistol has been passed down from Pete, to his child and then to a grandchild.   

[Ohwell]

3 hours ago, S.Batts said:

He probably had that pistol with him as proof that his heritage is also part McCullough and that pistol has been passed down from Pete, to his child and then to a grandchild.   

That makes sense.  However, I think it was kinda stupid of him to bring the pistol to the gala because all security would have seen was a Mexican with a pistol, and they would have just shot him.   

[Dowel Jones]

That was my thinking, also.  At the very least, Jeananne would have leveled some charge of grand theft against him if they had arrested him.  It's possible that she even knows or suspects that Pete got Maria pregnant and that there is another branch of the family out there.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Dowel Jones

[Ohwell]

Man, how stupid was Ulysses, burglarizing Jeananne's house?  He's lucky that all he got was buckshot in the leg.   And his "we are family" bullshit, even if she knows it's true, how could she ever trust him?  She might be afraid that he's just waiting for her to die so he can take over, or he might even kill her.  So yeah, I'm glad he got screwed and I didn't feel sorry for him at all.  

Too bad that Pete had to wind up shooting his own pa, but not surprising.  I figured he and Maria would end up together and they deserved each other.  Never like either one of them.

It was funny when the family was standing around Eli's dead body, pulling together the story to make him out to be some sort of hero.  

All in all, I guess it was a satisfactory ending. 

[Dowel Jones]

7 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I figured he and Maria would end up together and they deserved each other. 

He did alright, though.  He went on to found a chain saw dynasty and lived happily, although deaf, ever after.

So, young Eli (McCollough) Stevenson kills an Army Captain, steals some Army horses, rides out into the Texas wild country and somehow escapes the notices and clutches of the Army? That Captain must have had some weak bonds with his troops.

I don't understand why Endicott would drop funding the lawsuit.  Eli didn't have anything on him, except the intimidation of threatening him with scalping.  The will wouldn't matter as long as Eli was alive, and the lawsuit would still strip him of much of his property.

This show had the flavor of one of those sprawling epics that show up on tv every once in awhile, but it sure lacked some fill in information.  Assuming Jeananne actually inherited the ranch, did Phineas stay on to manage the place?  Did he become powerful at all, or did his homosexuality cut him off once out of the shadow of the titanic Eli?  And what of Pete's two sons, and of Sally and the piano teacher?

What I really want to know is, can you actually bring a pistol into a Texas jail if you're a rich and powerful matriarch?

[Joimiaroxeu]

I guess they must have made some financial guarantees to Brosnan, otherwise I don't know why this was brought back for a second season. The ending felt rushed to me and as mentioned upthread, several plot points were dropped with no explanation or follow through.

I haven't read the book and don't intend to but wonder how much of the series' lackluster performance was due to the source material, a poor adaptation of the source material, lack of adequate PR, or the, uh, interesting casting decisions.

After watching this I kind of wish someone would do an updated adaptation of James Michener's novel, Texas, and produce it as a short series instead a one-off TV movie.

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

He did alright, though.  He went on to found a chain saw dynasty and lived happily, although deaf, ever after.

Oh I know that they were "happy," I just thought they deserved each other because I thought that they were both unlikable, untrustworthy people, even if some of it was justified.  I wouldn't have wanted them as friends or neighbors.

[S.Batts]

I'm not sure what to think of the last show.   I didn't dislike it but I didn't like it either.   Way too many loose ends not resolved.   I didn't mind the way Eli died, he had it coming and coming from Pete...I didn't mind that at all.   I would have liked to have known what happened to them all after they found Eli dead.  Did Phinneas run the show for a bit?  Did Sally remarry?  And that last bit with Jeananne being showered by oil from the Garcia land was bittersweet.   That oil belongs to Maria.  

Elder Jeananne was such a bitch.  And Ulysses trying to steal from her was just plain stupid.  She doesn't have any kind of regard for her father so anyone connected to him, she could care less.  Hopefully she died as a miserable old coot.   She didn't seem to have any family anywhere near her so lonely she definitely was.   

[Dowel Jones]

If his aim was to bring down Jeananne a peg or two, Ulysses could have made bank on a good story.  Find a ghostwriter, and give him all the details that have been passed down through his own family.  So what if he didn't have the oil, or the land.  He would have had the revenge.

[Tyro49]

Didn't Ulysses mention being one of eight grandchildren of Pete and Maria? So there are indeed more McCulloughs in Mexico - didn't he also mention they had a nice place "on the gulf"? So they are not so bad off at all. Why don't they just bring their own family records to a lawyer?

I'm assuming that WWI took Jeananne's two brothers. But why is she still referred to as "Mz. McCullogh"? Shouldn't she be using her married name?

How does this all connect with the book? I've heard some people mention that it was quite different.

I would have expected the soldiers to attack Ingrid, not Eli; women in her position were generally considered "damaged goods" and ripe for "usage".

Edited July 12, 2019 by Tyro49