Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[apinknightmare]

I also took the ATOM/Arrow show down differently than most people here.  When Oliver said she chose you and to trust Felicity it seemed like he had already realized his stance against Ray can't be with Felicity and be a Vigilante was wrong which is why he never even brought it up to Ray.  I mean if Oliver's entire argument is people like us can't get the girl (which he stated to Barry...I still think that was more projecting than anything else), he should/could have given the same argument to Ray.  Instead he kind of just gave up and was like well if this is what she wants then you better prove worthy of her.  

 

 

I don't know about this, because he had literally just come from the argument he had with Felicity where he asserted, again, that Ray couldn't do both. I'd like to think he was beginning to have a change of heart about it then, but I think maybe he just decided that Felicity was happy with Ray and he wasn't going to do anything to jeopardize that. 

 

But I do agree that all of those things together might have him budging just a bit, because of what he said at the end of the ep when he was drinking with Diggle. The quote was:

 

"You were right, Oliver. Doing what we do, having loved ones at home. It's complicated." 

"The things that matter always are."

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know about this, because he had literally just come from the argument he had with Felicity where he asserted, again, that Ray couldn't do both. I'd like to think he was beginning to have a change of heart about it then, but I think maybe he just decided that Felicity was happy with Ray and he wasn't going to do anything to jeopardize that.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying he's actually realized he's wrong but i do think a tiny light bulb flickered in his mind.  Yes, he could just be going well let her be happy for a little while before Ray dumps her like I did but that seems even more cruel, IMO.  If he really believed that it's 100% impossible for anyone like him to get the girl (Oliver, Ray, Barry) I would have expected some sort of impassioned plea...stop this now, walk away from Vigilante or Felicity before you guys get in to deep,s he deserves better to have her heart broken and empty promises (again).

 

ETA: Thanks for the quote

Edited March 27, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

 

I would have expected some sort of impassioned plea...stop this now, walk away from Vigilante or Felicity before you guys get in to deep,s he deserves better to have her heart broken and empty promises (again).

Yeah, I expected it to go more or less like this, especially considering the exchanges F/O had throughout the episode.

[apinknightmare]

I'm glad you both posted this, because I didn't even think about Oliver maybe beginning to have a change of heart. I just figured he was trying to stay out of her business, haha.

[Ang]

Been meaning to post this from time to time, but I know it is not a novel idea. But Christina Perri's Arms came on my Pandora (Seriously this is Oliver's jam of the moment) & a motivational Mike Ditka quote popped up my tumblr feed, so I am taking it as a sign. The Mike Ditka quote was "Before you can win, you have to believe you are worthy". This qupte I think highlights the crux of what is wrong with OQ and his relationships, esp to Felicity. I truly do not believe he thinks he is worthy of anyone's love. Has anyone ever stopped and tried to actually convince OQ that he is worthy of Love??? The last person, I can remember trying was Moira. Felcity just keeps on yelling at him about not trying to be human enough. Diggle is trying to jedi-mind trick Oliver into admitting he is worthy of love and NONE of it is working. Its not that he is not trying to be human enough. He is trying. He has made significant strides in his humanity this year, but that doesn't mean he feels he is worthy of love. He is just adrift on this lonely island of despair & self-loathing and frankly its getting a little painful to watch. I want someone to tell OQ he is worthy of love.

I know that I may be in the minority of people who actually feel that how Oliver is trying to handle his feelings towards Felicity is not horrible. He is not intentionally stringing her along. He intentionally took his love away from her, which can be perceived as deciding for her, but I don't believe that is his intention. I truly do not believe his controlling in this regard. Everyone says that OQ won't have to work hard to get FS back once he puts his hat in the ring. And to an extent I believe that. But when will Felicity actually step up and throw her hat in the ring? Its one thing to accuse him of not trying to be human, but what has she done in this season that has proven or given him any indication that even if he had this great emotional metamorphis it would really make a difference in his situation? If anyone needs to tell him that he deserves to be loved its Felicity. He is human enough to recognize that he loves her, but that doesn't mean he knows how to accept love. And she really hasn't been all that clear with her intentions this season either. Telling him/ convincing him that he is worthy of love, is probably even more important than her ever admitting that she has feelings for him. But at this point, I will take any member of Team Arrow, heck I'll even take MM or Ras telling him that deserves to be loved. I truly hope its Thea, because it would be completely separate from romantic love and help bond them, which probably makes her the best person to tell him. It would also dovetail with s1 Thea when she told him he had to let somebody in. I know I need to be patient and wait until May. But its becoming harder to watch everyone emotionally beat up OQ, with him being the #1 person taking hits at himself. I think sometime we forget just how emotionally scarred & fragile Oliver really is. I think its easy to call him a controlling jerk that makes decisions for other people, but thats just a small percentage of what is going on. Its easy to say just choose happiness and humanity, but for OQ those aren't even believable options. I mean I know we wave it off as manpaining, but there are serious psychological & mental health issues floating around the foundry. OQ does not feel worthy and no amount of yelling at him is gonna change that. Someone who loves him needs to step in and have an emotional intervention soon.

First of all, I totally agree about the psychological issues floating around, and that worthiness is an issue for OQ. I don't think it's the only one but it's a big one.

Felicity did tell him she thought he deserved love, though, in S2 after he slept with Isobel. It's going to take more than words to convince this sorry soul.

[wonderwall]

Felicity did tell him she thought he deserved love, though, in S2 after he slept with Isobel. It's going to take more than words to convince this sorry soul.

 

Really? I feel like all that's left is for Oliver to say the words to sort of prove his actions. Oliver has the actions down. He trusts Felicity, he listens to her and takes what she says seriously, he's honest with her no matter what, and is her partner in the truest sense. What else is needed other than words? 

Edited March 27, 2015 by wonderwall

[Ang]

Really? I feel like all that's left is for Oliver to say the words to sort of prove his actions. Oliver has the actions down. He trusts Felicity, he listens to her and takes what she says seriously, he's honest with her no matter what, and is her partner in the truest sense. What else is needed other than words?

His self worth is more than Felicity-dependent, though. He's all those things with her, to an extent, but if he's still seeing himself as this dark, broken thing, a bloodied weapon beneath a human shell, then he's not going to allow himself to be in a relationship with anyone he cares about. He's also not likely to believe a simple statement to the contrary, since he'll think he's just fooled Felicity, for example, into thinking he's better than he is.

I'm not totally sold on this interpretation because as likely as it is I'm not sure it's what the writers have in mind. It sure seems plausible, though.

[wonderwall]

His self worth is more than Felicity-dependent, though. He's all those things with her, to an extent, but if he's still seeing himself as this dark, broken thing, a bloodied weapon beneath a human shell, then he's not going to allow himself to be in a relationship with anyone he cares about. He's also not likely to believe a simple statement to the contrary, since he'll think he's just fooled Felicity, for example, into thinking he's better than he is.

I'm not totally sold on this interpretation because as likely as it is I'm not sure it's what the writers have in mind. It sure seems plausible, though.

 

You're right. He has to sort of change his mindset a bit. He has to embrace the fact that he can have the best of both worlds. He's going to have to prove that he wants to be happy. But how would one prove that? Oliver has embraced almost every other aspect of his life, he fixed his relationship with Thea, he's good with John... Maybe what he could do is bring Oliver Queen back? Start off by fighting for his company and stuff? IDK

[Password]

He should probably stop saying you deserve better than a vigilante. Might start the process.

[wonderwall]

He should probably stop saying you deserve better than a vigilante. Might start the process.

He needs to believe it before he says it though. I wonder what will prompt it?

[apinknightmare]

What he needs to do is realize that what he thinks she deserves and what she wants are two different things. I think this last ep opened his eyes to that a bit. 

[Ang]

I also wonder if we'll see it before the end of the season. I originally thought so, but I am not at all sure now.

I've read interpretations of it that make me feel better about it, but I really felt like 3.17 was just pounding nails in Olicity's coffin as I watched it. Felicity's nauseatingly stupid line about Oliver wanting Ray dead, the weird kiss at the cheek, even the awkwardly on the nose relationship talk, all felt off. It left me wondering if we'll ever see them together or if TIIC are just killing them off slowly.

[lexicon]

He needs to believe it before he says it though. I wonder what will prompt it?

 

This is tvland so ....sweeps

[DrSpaceman10]

If the writers always wrote Olicity like they did in 3.17, I probably wouldn't even want them to get together. That being said, I think this is just the EPs' idea of an epic, star-crossed romance arc, after all these are the same people who thought starting a relationship with sister swapping was a good idea.

[apinknightmare]

Really? I actually generally liked their interactions save for that terrible line about Oliver being glad if Ray got killed. It was Felicity's interactions with Ray that I hated a lot. 

[Chaser]

Something did feel off to me in there interactions, but I'm not really sure what it is. I think it feels like they said so much and yet left too much unsaid. I'm generally okay with Oliver, but I really want Felicity to lose it on him. I think some of Felicity's frustrations and bitterness were coming through but they weren't direct enough for me (like the last episode). Words can not express how much I wish they had just shown Felicity casually dating instead of trying to give her a serious relationship. I would have loved to see her dip her toes in the dating pool every few episodes, bring in some comedic relief. Show her having fun and living her life. Show her embracing the vigilante life and her social life. Why did Oliver need to see another guy do it? Why couldn't he learn from her? 

[DrSpaceman10]

I feel like lately most of Oliver/Felicity's interactions have been so contentious (aside from 3.16), it doesn't feel like the relationship I've come to know over the past two seasons. I didn't like Felicity's line about Oliver wanting Ray dead (where did that come from?) and I didn't like Oliver's line about Ray not being able to date Felicity and be a vigilante at the same time (it's not Oliver's place to say). Their scenes in 3.17 were just missing something (not exactly sure what) that I hope will come back when this Ray/Felicity romance is over.

[looptab]

I didn't even think about Oliver maybe beginning to have a change of heart. I just figured he was trying to stay out of her business, haha.

That's what I initially thought,too, that he decided he wasn't going to stand in her way. But after reading the comments here,+ what he said to Diggle makes me believe he's on his way to enlightenment. And I'm glad, because I really thought they would do a Barry 2.0-Guys like us don't get the girl, they can only brood.

As for the matter at hand, this episode I liked a lot the conversation right before the match with the atom-except Felicity's line- but the one at the reception was very awkward to me. I don't know why, it felt off.

And when they were arguing in front of Roy, a part of me went "Not in front of your child!" :D

[Guest]

I feel like Olicity's scenes aren't the problem. Ray's the problem here. Keeping them apart in such a contrived way is the problem and it colors things a little. But on the whole, Olicity and how they are with each other isn't something I'm unhappy with, as a shipper. Even when they're fighting they still support each other and they've got back to a place where they're fixing things by the end of an episode instead of leaving everything hanging which has been an issue for me this season. Honestly, all this is proving is how much better Olicity are together than apart. They just need to realize it too. Sooner than later please because I'm so over this season it's not even funny. 

[Soulfire]

... this episode I liked a lot the conversation right before the match with the atom-except Felicity's line- but the one at the reception was very awkward to me. I don't know why, it felt off.

 

One of the reasons that scene felt off to me was that Oliver didn't really meet Felicity's eyes during the whole scene when Felicity approached him and Laurel with the bouquet and he went on to say all he's ever wanted [is for Felicity to be happy]. I don't know if this is an acting choice by SA, and I haven't gone back and watched season 2 scenes to compare if he always meets her eyes in their conversations there, but my mind seems to tell me he used to. It's something I've noticed in several of their scenes this season. At least to me that makes some of their scenes feel "off".

[calliope1975]

One of the reasons that scene felt off to me was that Oliver didn't really meet Felicity's eyes during the whole scene when Felicity approached him and Laurel with the bouquet and he went on to say all he's ever wanted [is for Felicity to be happy]. I don't know if this is an acting choice by SA, and I haven't gone back and watched season 2 scenes to compare if he always meets her eyes in their conversations there, but my mind seems to tell me he used to. It's something I've noticed in several of their scenes this season. At least to me that makes some of their scenes feel "off".

 

I have noticed that, and I think it's a deliberate choice by SA. Oliver and Felicity are very disconnected this year, but he's still head over heels for her, and I think it reveals too much if he makes eye contact. It's the same reason he can't touch her or pulls away from her touches.

 

If everything else about this show didn't infuriate me, I could enjoy this kind of angst, but it's been too drawn out and too poorly written.

[kismet]

He needs to believe it before he says it though. I wonder what will prompt it?

Frankly, when somebody sits the man down and bluntly asks him why he feels he doesn't deserve happiness or love. Seriously demands an answer to the question and not just the deflection answer that hes been given for 16+ episodes. My guess is this might be a conversation best suited to a place where people can't storm out

perhaps a plane

Yelling at him is not working, which is why I think 317 interaction felt so off with FS's bitterness coming through a little too strongly. She threw at him that RP is not afraid to be both a hero & a human. I thought that was definitely a below the belt hit. What also was sad, is that if she had rephrased and presented in a less hostile fashion it could actually help him get to the root of the problem. In the beginning of the season, with Diggle's encouragement he tried to be both the Arrow & OQ. Shit happened (the date, Sara's death, Thea's disappearance, losing QC & his family legacy), he began to self-question & self-doubt, with little evidence to counteract that he was wrong. Everything he seemed to touch he destroyed. So he got scared and now he's hiding behind that fear. But that fear is only masking what insecurities lie really deep in him. Like @ANG said he sees himself "dark, broken thing, a bloodied weapon beneath a human shell", not quite human. He's trying to be human & a hero, but it takes time to undue all the bad things that got him to this point in his life, both pre-island and everything in between. Up until last week he still saw himself as a former assassin and wasn't even sure why he was even on this mission anymore. Honestly, he still refers to himself in the 3rd person and has he ever refer to himself as heroic? So you have this guy who is simultaneously trying to come to terms with both his humanity and his heroism, while everything around him is still falling to pieces.

 

Oliver needs to see himself they way other people see him. And that was always the beauty of TA, when they are not on prop duty, they saw him for what he is and not what he thinks he is or was. He so desperately needs someone to make him see himself for what he is, not what he was. In 301, Diggle sorta pushed OQ to try to see himself as he & Felicity saw him. But he needs to believe it himself, and he doesn't. That takes some Pavlovian level reconditioning to undue all the bad conditioning of his former life. If he truly believed himself capable of balancing both OQ & Arrow, he never would have pushed her away. Which brings me back to my earlier statement that he doesn't believe OQ or the Arrow are truly worthy of it or her. He's just hiding behind that fact that its easier to say "I can't be both", it protects him from having to really fix any issues that exist. Its self-protective denial. Talk about a need for significant cognitive restructuring. He is stubborn, but he does respond to direct communication. Not indirect suggestions, statements or comparisons. Examples help him see that there are other options, but he needs to be encouraged to consider those options. So until someone really calls him out for the real reasons for being afraid, he will continue down this path. Diggle's confrontation in NP was the perfect example of what needs to be done. OQ was never gonna just admit to what he told Diggle on his own, that unfortunately is just part of how he was trained to operate and likely a personality trait. So it doesn't matter really that he understands what Felicity wants, that is not the root of the problem. He knows what she wants, hes not dumb. He just doesn't see himself as capable of giving that to her, even if her normal is heroic vigilante. Trust me its an issue that will need to be addressed at some point, but not now. His inability to be with Felicity at the moment, truly has nothing to do with Felicity. But she holds the key in making him realize that he is capable/worthy/deserving of love. It just gonna take some hard love and interrogation skills. Diggle required imprisonment & chains, but I think that was done for dramatic plot purposes. They always say you have to love yourself before you are capable of loving someone else. OQ just went around it backwards, someone needs to knock his head back in order. Oliver already knows he loves Felicity, now he needs to realize that its ok to love himself too.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

I'm new so I hope I am not bring up things that have been hashed and rehashed to death, but as someone who rather liked Oliver and Sara together and who thought that Sara was a good match for him and believed that he loved and cared for her - can someone please explain to me why all of Oliver's lines this season about not being able to be with Felicity are even believable?  Because to me - it's all bull.

 

Yes when he slept with the girl in Russia, he told Felicity he couldn't be with anyone who he really cared about.  For what its worth, I thought that was the second most a-holely thing Oliver has done on this show (the top slot goes to when he told Tommy to fight for Laurel and then half a minute later went to Laurel and declared his love for her and slept with her knowing what he told Tommy to do).  But while I believed him in that moment, he contradicted himself by apparently falling in love with Sara that very same season. 

 

Now, I could be persuaded to believe that Oliver and Sara did not really love each other, but the characters on the show (Felicity and Nyssa included) have gone on and on about how they did.  Oliver asked her to move in with him (something that caused him to freak out and be unfaithful to Laurel when she suggested it).  And Oliver is in no way directly responsible for Sara's death.

 

So how can I realistically believe he is head over heels in love with Felicity so quickly after the Sara breakup (am I supposed to believe he loved them both at the same time?) AND what are his reasons for believing he could be with Sara but not Felicity?  IF they had showed Sara dying in Oliver's arms - I might have believed this, but as of right now - I just can't buy into Oliver's motivations.

 

It doesn't help that I feel like I'm having to fanwhack most of his decisions this season and I just cannot square with his decision to rescue Merlyn once Thea turned him over.  If he really is so arrogant as to believe that he should have been able to beat Ra's - I really do NOT like him for Felicity or any woman on this show. 

 

Which brings me to my last observation - to me, Ray (at least on paper) seems like a much better guy than Oliver and I understand why Felicity has chosen him.  I mean, just do the comparison....

 

Ray has three PhDs - Oliver dropped out of 4 Ivy League schools.  That would seem to mean that both are smart, but one finishes what he starts.

 

It seems like Ray owns and runs several companies where Oliver couldn't focus enough to keep Slade from steeling his. 

 

Despite the fact that Ray didn't tell Felicity that he got the suit working (which is kind of OOC - everything we had seen up to that point would indicate he would fly back into the apartment and wake her up like an excited puppy dog) - he is actually pretty open with her while Oliver can't even say "I need Malcom's help because Ra's almost killed me and I am scared out of my mind and have NO idea how to protect Thea and everyone else that I love." 

 

Ray was so in love and faithful to his now dead fiancé that he felt weird the first time he kissed Felicity.  Oliver was known as a playboy while dating Laurel, probably cheated on her when he got the girl knocked up in college, knocked up a girl in college, cheated on Laurel with her sister, falls for Shado on the island despite mooning over Laurel's picture, is supposedly still in love with Laurel in season one, then dates the cop who he at least likes a lot, then falls for Sara, and is now head over heels for Felicity?  Boy doesn't know what being faithful looks like.

 

Ray wants a partner - Oliver wants to be in charge.

 

Again, I like Oliver and Felicity's friendship, but I think they are a VERY bad romantic pairing. Personally, I'd prefer her and Barry together because I thought they were all kinds of adorable.  But frankly, when it comes to women - Oliver is not what I would call a catch.  I love him as a vigilante, friend to Diggle, mentor to Roy, etc.... but as a love interest? No.

Edited March 27, 2015 by nksarmi

[Carrie Ann]

So how can I realistically believe he is head over heels in love with Felicity so quickly after the Sara breakup (am I supposed to believe he loved them both at the same time?) AND what are his reasons for believing he could be with Sara but not Felicity?  IF they had showed Sara dying in Oliver's arms - I might have believed this, but as of right now - I just can't buy into Oliver's motivations.

 

I think you ARE supposed to believe Oliver loved Sara and Felicity at the same time, maybe in different ways, at different stages. There are a lot of people, here and elsewhere, who don't believe he was ever IN love with Sara. I think it really depends on your personal definition, but to me, your second question gets to the point. "what are his reasons for believing he could be with Sara but not Felicity?" The answer, I think, is that he wasn't looking ahead with Sara. I think they loved each other, I think they had a really strong bond, I think they understood each other in a completely unspoken way. (I side-shipped them, actually, though I'm an Olicity person at heart.) But anyway, I don't think Oliver ever really gave much thought to his "relationship" with Sara, and did not allow it to become a distraction for him or to take any priority in his life.

 

So that's the difference. He was able to be with her until it threatened to actually become something defined. He balked when Sara talked about moving in together in more than a matter-of-convenience way, because he wasn't/isn't able to commit to a relationship. I don't see Sara herself, or her death specifically, being responsible for Oliver not being with Felicity. The only way it's relevant is that he did/does basically think that he's going to die doing this, as Sara did, so that may be another reason he doesn't see himself as a great option for Felicity.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[nksarmi]

Carrie Ann, I could have sworn that Oliver was the one who brought up him and Sara moving in together because I saw it as being so different than what he had with Laurel.  I could see the him thinking he is going to die doing this as the reason why - especially combined with his near death to Ra's but I don't feel like they are hitting that note.  I almost feel like with the way its being written Oliver doesn't think Felicity can take care of herself the way Sara did - like he doesn't see her as an equal.

[looptab]

One of the reasons that scene felt off to me was that Oliver didn't really meet Felicity's eyes during the whole scene when Felicity approached him and Laurel with the bouquet and he went on to say all he's ever wanted [is for Felicity to be happy]. I don't know if this is an acting choice by SA, and I haven't gone back and watched season 2 scenes to compare if he always meets her eyes in their conversations there, but my mind seems to tell me he used to. It's something I've noticed in several of their scenes this season. At least to me that makes some of their scenes feel "off".

 

 

I have noticed that, and I think it's a deliberate choice by SA. Oliver and Felicity are very disconnected this year, but he's still head over heels for her, and I think it reveals too much if he makes eye contact. It's the same reason he can't touch her or pulls away from her touches.

 

If everything else about this show didn't infuriate me, I could enjoy this kind of angst, but it's been too drawn out and too poorly written.

I agree, I think the scene was supposed to play out that way, with them not all that comfortable with each other, "I want you but I can't have you", "We can't meet each other's eye because the eye-banging it's too obvious and there are people here", and the actors played it well. But I guess what felt off to me was the script itself, how she approached him, what they discussed. I don't even know why it bothers me that much, but it felt weird.

[dtissagirl]

We haven't talked about Sara/Oliver around here for awhile, but all I see are the parallels with Felicity/Palmer. Different plot points to reach, but very similar pacing so far, even. Imo, both of these are plot-driven relationships, not character driven ones.

In season two, the plot demanded that Oliver and Sara got together because --

1. it had to add to Laurel's downward spiral at the family dinner from hell

2. it had to distract the audience from the fact that Oliver had growing feelings for Felicity [see killing the Count, his face when she caught him with Isabel, how he reacted to Barry being interested in Felicity, how he reacted to Felicity visiting coma!Barry], because the entirety of the season finale twist hanged on the audience being shocked at the "I love you", and not realizing that it was a plot to get to Slade. So, in a way, Sara/Oliver was a long con on the audience.

Okay, that's too harsh on Sara, poor beautiful rebounding on Nyssa with Oliver super hard Sara. But it was a sleight of hand relationship that served the plot a whole lot more than it served the characters.

Palmer this season is very much like Sara was last season. He does have one advantage over Sara, in that his plot-driven shenanigans are supposed to advance his own storyline into the spinoff. Sara's plot-driven shenanigans last season advanced Oliver/Felicity, and Laurel. Not so much Sara herself.

Palmer has a very clear narrative purpose: to be the alternate vigilante that wants to save people/fight crime AND have a life at the same time. He gets to be like that for the sake of both Oliver and Felicity. Oliver thinks he can't be like that, but lookie lookie here's an alternate dude that can do it! Felicity wants *Oliver* to be the vigilante with a good life with her on the side. But since he's decided he can't, she gets to play with the alternate dude for awhile. It gives her the "choice" plot -- does she want this life with anyone, or does it really have to be with Oliver in the end? -- and it gives Oliver actual visual examples of the woman he loves living the life she wants with him, but with the alternate dude.

Edited March 27, 2015 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

Carrie Ann, I could have sworn that Oliver was the one who brought up him and Sara moving in together because I saw it as being so different than what he had with Laurel.

 

Oliver suggested that he and Sara get a "more permanent place," because he figured Sara was tired of staying with Laurel and he and Sara couldn't sleep in the foundry with Roy there in his Mirakuru coma (<---I'm paraphrasing here, but those were his reasons when she asked if he was serious). When Sara asked if he was asking her to move in with him as in we should find a permanent place as a couple, he never answered her.

 

I know that Oliver cared for/loved Sara, but when he mentioned that I think he was thinking that they both needed a place to live and they were in a relationship, so why not find a place to live together? Not a friends-with-benefits roommate situation, but he clearly wasn't considering it to be "moving in together" moving in together in the context of taking their relationship forward.

[Carrie Ann]

Carrie Ann, I could have sworn that Oliver was the one who brought up him and Sara moving in together because I saw it as being so different than what he had with Laurel.  I could see the him thinking he is going to die doing this as the reason why - especially combined with his near death to Ra's but I don't feel like they are hitting that note.  I almost feel like with the way its being written Oliver doesn't think Felicity can take care of herself the way Sara did - like he doesn't see her as an equal.

 

Oliver does bring it up first, off-handedly, and then Sara clarifies a little awkwardly, "You want to move in together?" And that's when he backs off. He doesn't really realize that's what he was asking. He just meant that neither of them had a place to live at the moment, and her pushing about what he meant makes him (and her) realize that he's not in that mind-set at all.

 

As to your next question, I guess that's what I was getting at in my original post. I don't think the fact that he was "with" Sara while not really being committed to being with her negates or contradicts his reasons for not being with Felicity. I think they're related. He doesn't feel he can be in a relationship, period. He didn't think he was really in one with Sara and part of that is that he really didn't think about it. But he can't let himself be in that type of non-relationship with Felicity, especially when he does know that he's in love with her. I know a lot of people read that "Felicity can't take care of herself like Sara can" into his reasons, but Oliver has never indicated that that plays a part. It's always just about him and his lifestyle, and what he's able to give in a relationship, and that is: not 100%, basically.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[nksarmi]

Well I kind of think it does a disservice to Sara to downgrade what I thought was a really great couple to Oliver was just "with" her and didn't really think about it being a relationship BUT I can kind of see that being in line with Oliver's character.  And if that is the case, I can see him making the choice not to be with Felicity because she deserves better.  Now the thing is - I agree with him.  She does deserve better than this Oliver.  I understand that she loves him, but lots of women love men that are bad for them and Oliver just isn't good for anyone right now.

 

That said, I kind of hope Felicity and Palmer aren't broken up by the end of the season - because Felicity deserves some happiness.  Diggle gets to be happy without us seeing Lyla and baby Sara all the time.  So Felicity can as well as far as I'm concerned.  Now if the spin-off show takes place somewhere far away from Starling City and Central City - this would be hard to work out.  But if he is still in the general vicinity, I wouldn't mind knowing she had a dinner date with him now and then without having to see it happen.

 

Once Oliver figures out how to be Oliver Queen and run his own company and have a life - then maybe Felicity and Ray can go through a natural breakup and we can see olicity go back into full swing, but I don't want to see Raylicity end just to have Felicity go back to waiting on Oliver to figure out what he wants and if he is willing to risk being with her.  She is a smart, beautiful, funny, wonderful woman and I hate the idea of her just waiting on Oliver to be emotionally healthy enough to be in a relationship.

[Carrie Ann]

Well I kind of think it does a disservice to Sara to downgrade what I thought was a really great couple to Oliver was just "with" her and didn't really think about it being a relationship BUT I can kind of see that being in line with Oliver's character. 

 

Well, I'm just giving my impression of things, not stating facts, so I'm not trying to do a disservice to your impressions of their relationship. But I would say also that I do personally think Sara and Oliver could have been a good couple, someday. I just don't think that the two times in their lives they got together were the right times. Obviously not while he was dating her sister, and again, not so soon after the island/LoA. They just weren't ready for each other, and they weren't in the right headspace for it. I think they could have made it work sometime, or in a parallel universe, but just not the times they tried. (I was already shipping O/F by the time they got together, but I remember thinking that if Sara were the one named Dinah, I would have felt way differently about the Green Arrow/Black Canary coupling on this show.)

[statsgirl]

I got the impression that when Sara rephrased Oliver's suggestion that they find a place together into "you want us to move in together?" he did freak out a little and that's what pushed Sara to break up with him.

 

I think Sara was comfortable for Oliver.  They never really had a chance before season 2, first they were just together because they liked to have fun, and then the Queen's Gambit sank and while they probably got together on the island, it was tainted by their tragedies and Shado's recent death.

 

When Sara first came back, you can see the guilt in Oliver for what he made her (as he thinks).  They got together on the show after a terrible time for them both, when Oliver was desperate to save Sara and she'd just said goodbye to Nyssa (KL said that Sara was the love of Nyssa's life and I think CL said something similar about how Sara felt about her), and Laurel had welcomed her back by throwing her glass of wine.  Hopefully found some peace with each other that night.

 

And then they got together, two people who were both very lonely and hurting and I think they understood each other in many ways, both who they were and who they became and how they had to live now.  I think Oliver loved Sara in the way that he loved Tommy (except with sex), a very good friend he could let his walls down around.  I think he would have died for her but he didn't love her in the way we think of as romantic love.

 

That said, I kind of hope Felicity and Palmer aren't broken up by the end of the season - because Felicity deserves some happiness. 

I think Felicity does deserve happiness but Ray totally lost my support in the last episode because of the way he behaved to Felicity.  I even tweeted to MG that no woman deserves Ray Palmer as a boyfriend, much less Felicity.  I've state my reason in the episode thread (quarks stated them even better) so I'm going to hope that Ray and Felicity realize that this is a rebound relationship for them both and end it. Soon. Very soon.

[Genki]

@nksarmi since I'm not going to list out the reasons Ray Palmer is an issue, but here are some blog posts that pretty much sums up my issues with Ray & Ray and Felicity. From supporting cast thread.

 

This is the most wonderful thing I've read about Ray Palmer and why he's just a terrible character and how his character is a disservice to Felicity: X

 

 

And this other post on tumblr (X) it just really good.

 

 

 

The problem with Ray Palmer is that he is dismissive, petulant and misogynistic. He brushes away Felicity’s words about Oliver being innocent as her “having feelings” for him and “clouded by her attachment” to him. Twice in one episode he belittles her judgement because he thinks that - as a woman, presumably - her emotions make her blind to Oliver’s faults. We know that Felicity has never been blind to Oliver, far from it. Maybe Palmer doesn’t know that, but she’s not the only woman that Palmer does this to. He then goes and says exactly the same thing to Laurel, essentially telling her that her words/standing as a DA count for nothing because she once dated Oliver. I’m not the world’s biggest Laurel fan but even I was raging on her behalf and I honestly have no idea how she managed to stop from sinking the heel of her stilettos into his balls. I cheered when she shut him down. Congratulations, Arrow writers. You managed to make me like Laurel after all; you just had to find someone I could hate a lot more than her.

The difference between Oliver and Ray is clear as day. While Ray may say all the right things, the things that Felicity so desperately wants to hear, his actions belie his every word. He doesn’t trust her, he doesn’t care enough for her to want to include her in his work.

In contrast, Oliver has struggled all season to find the right words, and often he’s said completely the wrong thing. But his actions always show us how much he values and trusts Felicity. Even when he is mad (and hurt) at her for not telling him about Ray and his super suit, he backs her up. He doesn’t accuse her of lying to him or tell her that she broke his trust. Their second discussion in the foundry has nothing to do with that at all. And he tells Palmer, twice, that he’s a fool for not trusting Felicity’s judgment, for not choosing her the same way that she “chose” him. The fact that it takes Oliver - a man - to change Palmer’s mind and “apologise” to Felicity (could that apology have been any less gracious?) is another thing entirely. I have my issues with Oliver (he is my favourite character but I never hold back from calling him on his BS - oh, look Ray. I’m a woman who is emotionally invested in Oliver. I couldn’t possibly know what I’m talking about, could I?!) but all said and done, he is one hundred times the man that Ray is.

[lexicon]

To me, Oliver and Sara's relationship was simply two broken people finding comfort in each other. They'd been through a lot of the same things (pre and post island) and had a lot of history together and I think loved each other without ever being in love. In fact I think that was the basis for their whole relationship last season, neither of them could be with the person they did love and so being with each other i.e. another person who understood that, was the next best thing. 

 

I like the parallels with the R/F relationship that @dancingnancy drew in the sense that on paper both relationships make sense as both couples have a certain superficial similarity to each other that would suggest compatibility but we all know it takes more than that, that often what on paper seems so right may be anything but. I'd also argue that at their core Oliver and Felicity are a lot more similar that may be apparent at first viewing. They are both loyal and strong and brave and fiercely protective of those they love and if I had the time I'm sure I could list a thousand more points of similarity but what really makes them work is that certain ephemeral something, that's impossible to define but without which no couple can ever be really described as being "IN LOVE." 

 

That's what makes it different for Oliver this time and it scares the shit out of him. It's also why at the first sign of trouble he ran as fast as he could. I think being in love with Felicity and realizing how dependent he was on her, terrified him because this was something that if he lost would decimate him on a fundamental level. In contrast, when Sara died he was shaken and he mourned (I'm not trying to belittle that) but a lot of what we saw was him drawing comparisons to his own life and to what he saw as his own inevitable end. That I think may be the best illustration of the difference of his feelings for both, between loving and being in love. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by lexicon

[Menrva]

 

Once Oliver figures out how to be Oliver Queen and run his own company and have a life - then maybe Felicity and Ray can go through a natural breakup and we can see olicity go back into full swing, but I don't want to see Raylicity end just to have Felicity go back to waiting on Oliver to figure out what he wants and if he is willing to risk being with her.  She is a smart, beautiful, funny, wonderful woman and I hate the idea of her just waiting on Oliver to be emotionally healthy enough to be in a relationship.

I agree that she shouldn't be waiting around for Oliver to get his head out of his ass, however, why is being with Ray her only other viable option? What is so wrong with Felicity choosing not to be in a relationship?

Perhaps Ray does show affection for her, but he has shown himself to be rash, make quick decisions without much thought for the repercussions and rather clueless towards other people's needs or wants. He wants Felicity Smoak to work for him; she turns him down, so instead of respecting her decision, he buys the company she works for so she can't say no. He turns up at her doorstep without calling ahead. He pings her phone to find out where she is. He buys her expensive items to persuade her to do what he wants. To me, these are not the actions of someone who respects her. She seems to be this goal that he wants to achieve. And when Felicity dares to do or say things outside of what he wants, he withholds affection and approval. Which for some strange reason, Felicity seems to want. I do not want Felicity Steele. Give me back Felicity Smoak.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Menrva

[NumberCruncher]

I agree that she shouldn't be waiting around for Oliver to get his head out of his ass, however, why is being with Ray her only other viable option? What is so wrong with Felicity choosing not to be in a relationship?

This so much. For as much as I can't stand Ray as a character (completely beyond him being an obstacle to Olicity) I hate even more that Felicity has been reduced to solely being the love interest prize in the superhero penis parade. It grates...but I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll stop now.

[Morrigan2575]

I agree that she shouldn't be waiting around for Oliver to get his head out of his ass, however, why is being with Ray her only other viable option? What is so wrong with Felicity choosing not to be in a relationship?

I don't get this at all. Felicity hasn't jumped from relationship to relationship, this is the first present day relationship Felicity has had on the show. She's the only female regular on the show to not have a love interest for 61 episodes. The only other series regulars who haven't had relationships are the parent figures or villains (Lance, Merlyn, Slade).

Oliver - Laurel, Sara, McKenna, Helena and even Isabel (if you want to go there)

Laurel - Oliver, Tommy, Blood

Diggle - Carley and Lyla

Thea - Roy and DJ

Roy - Thea

Moira - Walter

Tommy - Laurel

Felicity - No one until Ray. The closest she got before Ray was a dance with Barry, didn't even get a kiss.

I get not liking Ray, I get not liking Raylicity but saying, Felicity doesn't need to wait around, pining for Oliver but why does she need to be in a relationship anyway....kind of sounds like fans pretty much just want her sitting around waiting for Oliver, IMO.

This so much. For as much as I can't stand Ray as a character (completely beyond him being an obstacle to Olicity) I hate even more that Felicity has been reduced to solely being the love interest prize in the superhero penis parade. It grates...but I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll stop now.

I don't have a problem with Felicity being in a relationship with Ray or any other character. However, I do agree with you that reducing Felicity to having nothing but a Love Interest role is a problem. Edited March 27, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

I thought the Sara/Oliver pairing was beautiful for what it was, but I never saw it a true romantic relationship. I think they both loved each other, but that was forged out of some dark times. I have to agree with @lexicon that they loved each other without ever being "in love". And @statsgirl was also insightful in that he loved Sara the way he loved Tommy. It was a deep love, it just wasn't passionate or romantic in my perception. I think they understood each other in way no one else on the show could, considering their shared experiences of repeated trauma. Their friendship and relationship was solid, but I don't think they had a deep in your soul connection that way O& F do. It could just be SA & EBR chemistry, but something about O&F seem instinctual where O&S does not. Its probably why I also don't like the R&F pairing as much, because I just don't feel that spark. Both relationships work on a practical and logical level, and IRL could see all 3 relationships bringing happiness. But there is something about F&O that just seems so right? I do agree that I believe F&O are more intrinsically similar to each other than they appear which contributes to overall better compatibility. Whereas, a lot of what made O&S compatible is more extrinsic (shared trauma, shared history, shared hobbies). I don't want to diminish how great Sara was for O & TA. But I think her heart was also elsewhere as well during the relationship. They were 2 people in love with other people they couldn't be with for very valid practical & emotional reasons. We saw very little of Nyssa/Sara, but their bond did seem very strong. Nyssa clearly loved her very much, that you can garner just from how she cares herself since SL death. Ultimately, S & O sought comfort and solace in each other and there is nothing wrong with that. They were perfectly placed in time and location to restart a physical relationship to help them cope with everything else that was going on in their lives. Both had significant family dramas revolving around sisters and lies/betrayal. They were experiencing some pretty emotional raw suffering on top of the mind games Slade was beginning to play. But another bonding element for them, was the fact that they also were culpable for of a lot of the pain they were experiencing and helped cause. People who are experiencing similar levels of guilt and shame can relate to each other on certain level that those who have not experienced similar situations can understand.

 

In the end, I just never saw it as was a right fit for a long-term romantic relationship. There was just too many shared demons, that eventually would have overtaken them. Like Sara alluded to when she said she cared about him too much to be with him. They both needed someone that brought out the light in them and they were not those people for each other. For all the OQ was trying to help her regain her light, he just wasn't able to do it, no matter how many times he offered. Their break up scene actually hurt my heart, more than I thought it would. In many ways, OQ is doing something similar to FS. But I think the difference, is that their relationship with the exception of few bumps here and there has made them stronger and more alive together than when they are apart. Whether or not s/o were together or apart did not seem to impact the other.

 

Beyond the lunge redo and forced plot placements, I don't see how R/F & O/S are comparable. I always saw O/S as a relationship that brought them mutual comfort and support. Whereas the way R/F is written, it has always felt more about helping Ray make his suit and become the ATOM. I can agree to disagree, but Ive seen very little of Ray bringing Felicity mutual comfort and support. And for the amount of times they made her cry in front of him, I would have thought he would have come off more supportive, but in my perception he hasn't. All I want is for Felicity to find happiness. But after this season, I sorta want her to have sometime to take for herself and just be. Like Olivia on scandal, I just want her to choose her. Even if OQ is able to find his way to be emotionally healthy by the end of the season (hallelujah!), I still want some decent emotional space between when R/F ends and O/F begins.

[Menrva]

I don't get this at all. Felicity hasn't jumped from relationship to relationship, this is the first present day relationship Felicity has had on the show. She's the only female regular on the show to not have a love interest for 61 episodes. The only other series regulars who haven't had relationships are the parent figures or villains (Lance, Merlyn, Slade).

I get not liking Ray, I get not liking Raylicity but saying, Felicity doesn't need to wait around, pining for Oliver but why does she need to be in a relationship anyway....kind of sounds like fans pretty much just want her sitting around waiting for Oliver, IMO.

I don't have a problem with Felicity being in a relationship with Ray or any other character. However, I do agree with you that reducing Felicity to having nothing but a Love Interest role is a problem.

I'm sorry, I think you made a great point about relationships. As much as I would love to see Oliver and Felicity get together, I don't really want to see her sitting like Patience on a Monument, waiting for her love. But I just don't like the Fifty Shades of Ray I see going on here. I would totally be for Felicity getting a real relationship with a real guy. Not a cardboard cutout Phony Stark who lays guilt trips on her for things that are none of his fucking business.

[nksarmi]

Menva - First Felicity could choose not to be in a relationship and be very happy, but these writers won't write that.  I hate love triangles and I certainly don't need tons romance on Arrow, but I suspect the most we will ever get is one happy couple ( right now Diggle and Lyla) and one happy single (right now Laurel) on the show at a time.  Everyone else must be in some degree of angst and drama, right?

 

All I am saying is I would rather Felicity enjoy her relationship with Ray, let it come to a natural conclusion that has nothing to do with Oliver (and his opinion that she should only date a perfectly normal guy - he doesn't get to decide who she dates, he isn't her dad) and everything to do with them "just not working out" and let it all happen organically as the EPs like to say. And as far as Felicity not just being a love interest for someone - I get that, really I do.  But they had her pinning for Oliver while he slept with or dated at least four women and that's just wrong.

 

And you just KNOW they are not going to have Felicity and Oliver in a happy relationship for two or three seasons (or however long this show has left in it) so do you really want them together now?  In my opinion, it has been painful to watch them move from friends to romantic interest this season because clearly the writers NEVER intended for them to be together and be happy NOW.  I think it has done a disservice to both characters.  Their friendship was awesome and they should have kept it there in my opinion.

 

I do not want to watch them keep tossing plot devices and reasons to keep them apart because eventually it will undermine my ability to believe they are remaining friends. If Felicity stays with Ray - even through the spin-off - she is dating someone that Oliver knows and who knows her secret life and now trusts her on it (so we don't have to go through that drama again).  If the spin-off is set somewhere around SC/CC, we don't have to see Ray anymore than we see Lyla (or less) - they can just reference him now and then.  In fact, with the spin-off and some adjustments made to character development in Ray, you can actually have something that will help us avoid olicity angst, let them return to friendship status, and put off the relationship to a time when the writers might get them together and let them stay together.  And all of this can happen without them introducing a guy for Felicity to date who actually turns out to be a villain using her to get to Oliver and other such fun plot twists that will probably ensue next season if the current pairing ends.  Just saying - be careful what you wish for - raylicity might not be the worst possible option out there. :)

[Menrva]

Menva - First Felicity could choose not to be in a relationship and be very happy, but these writers won't write that.  I hate love triangles and I certainly don't need tons romance on Arrow, but I suspect the most we will ever get is one happy couple ( right now Diggle and Lyla) and one happy single (right now Laurel) on the show at a time.  Everyone else must be in some degree of angst and drama, right?

 

All I am saying is I would rather Felicity enjoy her relationship with Ray, let it come to a natural conclusion that has nothing to do with Oliver (and his opinion that she should only date a perfectly normal guy - he doesn't get to decide who she dates, he isn't her dad) and everything to do with them "just not working out" and let it all happen organically as the EPs like to say. And as far as Felicity not just being a love interest for someone - I get that, really I do.  But they had her pinning for Oliver while he slept with or dated at least four women and that's just wrong.

 

And you just KNOW they are not going to have Felicity and Oliver in a happy relationship for two or three seasons (or however long this show has left in it) so do you really want them together now?  In my opinion, it has been painful to watch them move from friends to romantic interest this season because clearly the writers NEVER intended for them to be together and be happy NOW.  I think it has done a disservice to both characters.  Their friendship was awesome and they should have kept it there in my opinion.

 

I do not want to watch them keep tossing plot devices and reasons to keep them apart because eventually it will undermine my ability to believe they are remaining friends. If Felicity stays with Ray - even through the spin-off - she is dating someone that Oliver knows and who knows her secret life and now trusts her on it (so we don't have to go through that drama again).  If the spin-off is set somewhere around SC/CC, we don't have to see Ray anymore than we see Lyla (or less) - they can just reference him now and then.  In fact, with the spin-off and some adjustments made to character development in Ray, you can actually have something that will help us avoid olicity angst, let them return to friendship status, and put off the relationship to a time when the writers might get them together and let them stay together.  And all of this can happen without them introducing a guy for Felicity to date who actually turns out to be a villain using her to get to Oliver and other such fun plot twists that will probably ensue next season if the current pairing ends.  Just saying - be careful what you wish for - raylicity might not be the worst possible option out there. :)

nksarmi - I actually agree with just about all your points, and I swear, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Yeah, it's probably too much to ask for these writers to let Felicity be happy without having a man in her life right now. I don't need her and Oliver to get together now (yes, it would be lovely, but given the current events, very improbable) and I really do miss their friendship. If they never get together, I guess I'd be disappointed, but it wouldn't make me rage. I don't have an issue with Felicity having a boyfriend who is not Oliver Queen.

 

Which brings me to the point I do disagree with: Ray Palmer. If he had behaved differently, if he weren't such a smarmy arrogant jerk, if he had truly treated her as an equal instead of hunting her down, then I'd feel better about it. But I am so put off by Ray and this past episode really disgusted me. Whatever they have seems so ill-defined, I don't know what it is. I don't think Oliver should dictate what sort of person Felicity should be with, but the Ray Palmer they have presented us with is so unpleasant that I can't figure out what she sees in him. But yes, I think you are right in that there could most certainly be worse things than Raylicity. 

I'm having trouble putting all this into the right words so I don't really want to belabor this any further.

[dtissagirl]

But they had her pinning for Oliver while he slept with or dated at least four women and that's just wrong.

This keeps popping up every couple of months, so let me try and debunk it again.

Before it became explicit text in 206 that maybe there was something more between Oliver and Felicity, all we knew was that she thought he was sexually attractive. She blatantly objectified him, and she didn't even try to hide that she watched him and his body. But there was no pining. There is no indication in S1 that Felicity had romantic feeling for Oliver. She wasn't even aware of it when he was with Helena, and she honestly encouraged him to date McKenna. And she also has no idea he slept with Laurel.

At the beginning of S2, they started getting more flirty, but it was all still framed as Felicity being sexually attracted to Oliver. Again, that's not pining, it's thinking a hot dude is hot. Which he is.

After 206 and Isabel, when feelings just started being made text, Felicity got interested in Barry and asked HIM out on a date, while denying [and in denial] that she had feelings for Oliver. Which, she had, but again, not pining at all -- instead becoming legit interested in Barry.

And her complete denial that she could maybe have feelings for Oliver basically shows that she put a "never gonna happen" label on Oliver, and moved on. And the narrative made it so that she had to *not pine for him* for the not so fake "I love you" in the finale to work. For it to be shocking, it had to blindside Felicity. She hadn't even considered the possibility of him as a romantic partner until that moment. Which is why she tells him on the island that it felt like maybe he meant it. THAT moment she was asking him "what if".

And then we didn't see the Summer of flirty flirt, so no idea if she was pining.

Oliver, however, has been pining for Felicity for a really long time. Still is. The idiot.

Edited March 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[nksarmi]

dancingnancy - not a bad counter argument, but I've had the impression she was pinning over him for at least all of season two.  I also think lines like "finally get a guy interested in me and he gets hit buy a bolt of lightning" indicate that not only was she pinning a little - she was also lonely.  And I just do not want to see them return Felicity to that status.

 

Do I wish Ray had been written better? Yes.  I don't dislike him like so many do, but there have been issues.  It's just that this is a season that had Merlyn trying to get Oliver to fight Ras to erase his blood debt when there is no logical way Merlyn would expect Oliver to win.  It's a season where Merlyn threatened to show Ras a video of Thea killing Sara which is what makes Oliver go fight Ras but then Oliver later says he knew Merlyn was bluffing.  It's a season where Oliver saves Merlyn after Thea secures their safety because he doesn't want Thea to feel guilty about it?  Or because he feels weak because Ras (a man who has been fighting for more than a century) beat him with a sword (which we have never seen Oliver use).  A season where Thea says in one episode "We should stay and fight" and in the next episode "I'm not a killer - I didn't sign up for this!"  A season where they just forgot that Roy was lying unconscious and had Oliver walk off without checking on him!

 

All in all, how in the world could Ray have been written better with all of this other crud going on?  Don't get me wrong - I still love this show.  But if I have to lower my expectations for how they are writing Oliver and the main plot - I certainly don't have high hopes for a side story like Ray. 

 

I guess it just started occurring to me what would happen next season if they end Raylicity now and visions of Felicity dating a guy who turns out to be the main villain and female villains trying to kill Felicity and other such nonsense filled my head and frankly - I'd just rather they keep Felicity and Ray together off camera and let it be.

[dtissagirl]

dancingnancy - not a bad counter argument, but I've had the impression she was pinning over him for at least all of season two. I also think lines like "finally get a guy interested in me and he gets hit buy a bolt of lightning" indicate that not only was she pinning a little - she was also lonely. And I just do not want to see them return Felicity to that status.

I agree that she was lonely, but I have a completely different take on that line. Imo, Felicity is not the pining type, because she's too logical and to practical to long for things she's decided are not on the table. So what that line tells me is that Felicity saw a real possibility with Barry, that was robbed from her. And it also tells me that she was completely unaware of Oliver standing there at that exact time actively pining for her, thinking "what am I, chopped liver?"... While she remained oblivious.

But agree to disagree.

Edited March 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

 

 

NKSARMI, ON 27 MAR 2015 - 8:53 PM, SAID:

But they had her pinning for Oliver while he slept with or dated at least four women and that's just wrong.

 

 

This keeps popping up every couple of months, so let me try and debunk it again.

Agree with everything you say, plus he had no duty to reciprocate her lustful feelings, just like women don't have any duty to reciprocate their male friends' lustful feelings.  He showed no romantic interest in her throughout S1, so he did nothing wrong (re Felicity) dating/sleeping with those three women.  If she's allowed to sleep with Ray while harboring serious feelings for Oliver, Oliver is certainly allowed to sleep with those women while NOT harboring serious feelings for Felicity.

 

That takes it down to Isabel and Sara.  The Sara thing has been discussed exhaustively, and the Isabel thing was pretty much the wakeup call to him that he maybe kind of dug her.  I might go a bit earlier to the "crate of automatic weapons, Mr. Queen" moment, but if he had a moment there, I doubt he was aware of it.  He was at least somewhat aware of it AFTER she caught him sleeping with Isabel.

 

As an aside, in S2 I loved Olicity, (hate them together now, think her "you'd like that, wouldn't you," and "[unlike you] he wants to be human and a hero," are kind of unforgivable), and I LOVED him with Sara.  Partially because I adore Sara, but also because I think they were the perfect balm to each other's souls at that time.  They made perfect sense to me, and if she'd been less damaged I might have wanted them together permanently.  

[kismet]

dancingnancy - not a bad counter argument, but I've had the impression she was pinning over him for at least all of season two.  I also think lines like "finally get a guy interested in me and he gets hit buy a bolt of lightning" indicate that not only was she pinning a little - she was also lonely.  And I just do not want to see them return Felicity to that status.

 

Do I wish Ray had been written better? Yes.  I don't dislike him like so many do, but there have been issues.  It's just that this is a season that had Merlyn trying to get Oliver to fight Ras to erase his blood debt when there is no logical way Merlyn would expect Oliver to win.  It's a season where Merlyn threatened to show Ras a video of Thea killing Sara which is what makes Oliver go fight Ras but then Oliver later says he knew Merlyn was bluffing.  It's a season where Oliver saves Merlyn after Thea secures their safety because he doesn't want Thea to feel guilty about it?  Or because he feels weak because Ras (a man who has been fighting for more than a century) beat him with a sword (which we have never seen Oliver use).  A season where Thea says in one episode "We should stay and fight" and in the next episode "I'm not a killer - I didn't sign up for this!"  A season where they just forgot that Roy was lying unconscious and had Oliver walk off without checking on him!

 

All in all, how in the world could Ray have been written better with all of this other crud going on?  Don't get me wrong - I still love this show.  But if I have to lower my expectations for how they are writing Oliver and the main plot - I certainly don't have high hopes for a side story like Ray. 

 

I guess it just started occurring to me what would happen next season if they end Raylicity now and visions of Felicity dating a guy who turns out to be the main villain and female villains trying to kill Felicity and other such nonsense filled my head and frankly - I'd just rather they keep Felicity and Ray together off camera and let it be.

Agree with a lot of this. The writing overall has been just atrocious. Except I can't honestly get behind a Ray & Felicity relationship off screen that's where we will have to disagree. Unless, I see Ray apologize better for some of his actions. I just don't know. Honestly, I think they jumped the gun on O/F and then waited too long to get R/F going. The timing of it all has been problematic. If Felicity dates random people that might also seem weird after this season. Plus that rarely works on a show, too much casting and random scenes. I definitely don't want her dating a villain, thats cliche. Maybe I would like to see her just focus on her professional career. Show her settling into her role as VP. Running to and from power meetings, too busy to date. And depending on if/how RP break-up occurs she could just decided to take some time to process what it all meant. Do you think its possible for them to just avoid romance in general? I mean the scripts are overflowing with so much plot and plotholes that they forgot they electrocuted one of their regular cast members. Its one thing to not address rando LoA/bad guys but to just breeze over Roy? Really and all they can say is that they messed up. I mean they've already said they don't write the casual hang out scenes well, so what makes us think they will write romance well esp for OQ & FS. The biggest problem is that SA & EBR have too much chemistry, esp the way the last episodes have played out that any person they are involved with that is not each other will do an injustice to that person. So unless they somehow cut out the chemistry between them I will find any extracurricular relationship less believable. So the writers have really written themselves into a corner with the current status of the O/F relationship. But its hard to not write their close partnership/friendship without there being romantic overtones after all the tones this season. That being said, spoilers have indicated that there might be some significant physical distance so that is one way they may get around it.

 

Honestly, I watch Arrow for the relationships between more than just O/F. So if they moved it away from romance and into quality written for character interactions for all characters in s4, I would be happy. Let's move it forward. Shippers are always gonna ship and chemistry will always exist, but its a superhero, crime fighting action show with a large talented ensemble cast, how much time do we really need to focus on romance? Also I would love to just get back to telling Oliver's journey and struggles without somehow always having to have it relate back to his romantic relationships regardless of who it is. I've missed the ease of s2 when it was not about Laurel or Felicity. I mean I don't want everybody to always be alone or to completely remove all romance from the show, but for s4 it would be refreshing if the angst cloud did not follow OQ around because of reasons. Im not even sure Im making sense but this season has left me a little adrift.

[nksarmi]

kismet - I agree with everything you said and if I could have one wish it would be that they just back burner any romance for Oliver OR Felicity until they are ready to address a real relationship with them that will either work or not work but has nothing to do with plot (so like the last season of the show).

 

I actually believe at this point that Ray and Felicity have not gone too far that they could break up, remain friends, and him keep her running his company while he goes to spin-off land.  I would be ok with this if we don't have to a) watch Felicity or Oliver pine, b) watch either of them date villains, and c) watch them go through any angst.  I want the friendship back - I don't care about kissing, flirting, or anything else personally.

 

If this show wants romance - do it through Roy and Thea or Laurel and WilCat or Diggle and Lyla or flashbacks.  I'd be more than happy to see them focus on storytelling and not leaving sidekicks unconscious after being electrocuted by a super suit without checking on him.

 

Oh and there is one problem with my just have Felicity and Ray continue off camera idea - I forgot about the comics. So yea, they definitely jumped the gun on O/F and need to figure out how to dial it back and make them fun and friendly again.

Edited March 28, 2015 by nksarmi

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't see them dropping the Oliver/Felicity romance arc this season, I think all of this love triangle, I love you but I can't be with you stuff is definitely leading somewhere. Since the EPs have said that they like to repeat themes from the season premiere in the season finale I expect the show to at least revisit Oliver's stance on not being able to be with Felicity and save the city. 

 

This is pretty much what happened last season too, the beginning and end of the season made sense but the middle was a mess. So I'm hoping the same is true of this season and they can pull it together. 

[NoWayOut]

Oliver has a constant reminder in Diggle that it's possible to fight crime and be with the one you love. He's already The Arrow and Oliver Queen in nearly every aspect with regards to Thea, Diggle, Roy, Laurel. He's fine with being Oliver Queen, a friend, to Felicity but refuses to be Oliver Queen, something more, to her. He told her in the last episode that he couldn't be with her and save the city. But why is being with Felicity considered a distraction but being a brother to Thea isn't? What do you think is going to happen that will finally cause Oliver to have that big moment of realization that hey, maybe it's possible and act on it?

 

This quote from EBR describes O/F well: "They are so much more than friends, but they’re not a couple. They’re not in a relationship, but they’re in a relationship all the time. They care really deeply for each other on more than just a platonic level. There’s a deep love there. There’s a very deep emotional connection you don’t really get with everyone. It’s special. It should be treasured, but it’s also scary and a little inconvenient."

Edited March 28, 2015 by NoWayOut

[CabotCove]

Well I kind of think it does a disservice to Sara to downgrade what I thought was a really great couple to Oliver was just "with" her and didn't really think about it being a relationship BUT I can kind of see that being in line with Oliver's character.

 

I dont think that is something that is supported by show canon,  even though their relationship was mostly used as a plot device. The show has had various characters or Oliver himself saying he loved Sara, and other characters saying vice versa about Sara's feelings for Oliver.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell