Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Starfish35]

I completely agree with that. But for whatever reason, I still think they had a spinoff in mind when they created the character. Part of the reason she may have been so sketchily conceived is that they had an idea toward saving her origin story/character journey for her own show (or a shared BoP show). We'll probably never know, because I don't think the EPs would discuss something like that unless it worked out. Anyway, regardless of their intent for her, they've basically screwed up at every turn in her development, and in every one of her relationships. So now, her grief w/r/t Sara rings hollow, because she was basically awful to her for most of last season. That in turn makes her path to vigilantism ring hollow because I just don't believe it. And on and on we go.

I guess I don't agree because I don't think they ever really considered her as a character with a story of her own beyond Oliver's, much less planning a spinoff for her. Oliver and Laurel were supposed to be the show's OTP - if it had worked like it wa supposed to, why would they break them up and send her off on her own show? *shrugs* But I'll agree to disagree on this point. I do completely agree that they've made the wrong choices for her at every turn however. I think that so much of what they had conceived for Laurel revolved around her being the main woman in Oliver's life, and once they pulled that reason for being out from under the character, it seems like they're flailing trying to rewrite/reinvent her. At least that's my impression.

As to why they didn't screentest them together, who knows? But according to Stephen Amell, he didn't read with anyone in the cast, so it wasn't just Katie Cassidy.

I want to add something else but I think I have to take that to the spoiler thread, assuming I've got the rules correctly.

I think you can put it here as long as you use spoiler tags, assuming it's about something that hasn't aired yet.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

From KC's interviews, I get the feeling that they took the script to her first even before they hired SA, although they announced her casting later (maybe it took months to work out the contract).

 

At first I thought that having Felicity visit Barry was to give The Flash a boost. Now I'm thinking that it's a chance to try out the show with Laurel as Oliver's main female connection.

 

I'm retreating to here because out there, the internet is full of people who think that Laurel is perfectly right to call up Felicity at work and have her google the guy's phone because that's what Oliver and Diggle do and Laurel is part of Team Arrow now.  My feelings that 1. Diggle has a 2 year relationship with Felicity of friends and workmates 2. it was about Lyla's and baby Sara's safety and 3. he couldn't have got the information any other way are my bias talking

 

Laurel treats everyone like that though. It's one of her defining traits and one of the few consistencies in her character.

I agree it's consistent.  Why does it bug me so much when she does it to Felicity?

Is it because Felicity is a nice person and will do what Laurel asks, while Laurel wouldn't reciprocate?

Or is it because I think a woman should be nice to another woman because it's a cold, cruel, male-biased world out there?

 

 

So, no one took anything from him that he didn't willingly give away. And it's not like he ever really gave a shit about QC - he never really put that much effort into being CEO anyway.

Before the big board meeting, Felicity asked him which suit he was wearing that night -- and whether he even remembered where his business suit was.  At that time, all Oliver was thinking about was Slade and giving QC a pass.  Which may be understandable, but it's also understandable why the board went with the guy who was an actual businessman with a history of making profitable business decisions.  I do think that Felicity should have had a bump in title and pay during that period though.

 

I think when Oliver said that Ray was a better person to run the company than he was, it was like giving Felicity permission to work for Ray. But maybe not. Oliver seemed pretty pissy about it in Corto Maltese. They really should have had a scene with them talking just so we could get a handle on their relationship right now, But since Felicity is off to Central City, I guess I have to wait till November sweeps to find out.

Edited October 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

As to why they didn't screentest them together, who knows? But according to Stephen Amell, he didn't read with anyone in the cast, so it wasn't just Katie Cassidy.

 

If I am not wrong, I read it somewhere that he did a test/reading with Colin Donnell and those two clicked perfectly.

 

I think the whole KC non chemistry fiasco was so strong that they did chemistry test for Caity Lotz and Stephen, Grant Gustin and Emily and later for Caity Lotz and Katrina Law to make sure that KC/SA kinda suck does not happen again.

 

PS: I think the only reason KC is becoming BC is because it must have been clearly stipulated in her contract that she will become BC within three years or something, otherwise killing her off would have been so much cheaper for them.

[Danny Franks]

Even with that soft reboot it still doesn't fix the complete void of chemistry between these two. It's so lacking that when I watched the Pilot I had to check Thea was meant to be a sibling given she had more going with Oliver than his supposed lady love, & I'm not even going to get into the sister swapping. The thing is I now don't put it past the Writers to completely ignore all of their past - I've lost whatever faith I had in them since the premiere aired, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on this.

 

 

Heh. I remember the posts on TWoP about Stephen Amell's chemistry with Willa Holland, and how it was borderline inappropriate at times. I noticed it myself on several occasions, where it looked like Thea was interested in Oliver in a decidedly non-sibling way. I still think that "we never got to the exchanging presents part" from Year's End is about the most sexually loaded piece of dialogue this show has contained so far.

 

But really what that showed, beyond Willa Holland needing a cold shower, was that fans were looking for any alternative to Laurel, even before Felicity became viable. She'd appeared in a few episodes by that stage, and I know that there were comments on how she'd be a better option for Oliver than Laurel. Hell, even Joanne was suggested as a better option. So that has always undercut the idea that Felicity usurped Laurel in that sense. A lot of people rejected Laurel way before that, and it was for the reasons that have been detailed on this forum. Terrible writing, bad acting, no chemistry with the lead, and a lot of people just weren't on board with the idea that Laurel and Oliver should even try to overcome the fact that he was shagging her sister.

 

That can't somehow magically change, two years down the line. Katie Cassidy is no better now than she was then, and the writing seems to be no better. In fact, it might be even worse. But what is stacked against them even further is, now Oliver does have a viable alternative who has been widely embraced by the audience. Still, I think these buffoons in charge of the show think they know better, and are smarter, than everyone else.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Starfish35]

If I am not wrong, I read it somewhere that he did a test/reading with Colin Donnell and those two clicked perfectly.

What I remember reading was that the only person he read with was someone who was being considered for the Tommy role, but that it wasn't Colin Donnell. He didn't read with anyone that actually ended up in the cast (at the beginning).

Edited October 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[Angel12d]

I just realized I forgot to mention Oliver/Felicity in my thoughts over at the episode 303 thread so I thought I'd leave them here.

 

I didn't actually mind the distance between them in the episode. There was no time to really do or say anything, although it's weird that there was no mention of her working at QC again. Roy didn't know she no longer worked at Tech Village but Oliver had this momentary look of fury/annoyance which suggests he did so I don't know when or how he found out. I really don't like that we're supposed to just assume these little details. To me, Oliver finding out Felicity is now working for the guy that outbid him for his own company is kind of a big thing. Or maybe that's just me.

 

It's interesting though how Oliver seems to be quite hard faced and distant in her presence whereas Felicity is acting like nothing has changed. After everything that happened and how close they came to being happy together, I totally understand why Oliver is acting this way and I can buy that Felicity is maybe putting on an act rather than being completely over what happened, although I do hope we get some sort of scene where it shows she too is struggling with the change in their relationship. I don't expect her to be all mopey and sad or whatever because that's not who she is but it's a pretty dramatic change in their dynamic and for her to not have a reaction to that is weird. Still, it's early days so I'm going to be patient.

 

I do hope they manage to find some balance in their relationship though because this distance is throwing everything off and I don't like it. 

[quarks]

Now I'm thinking that it's a chance to try out the show with Laurel as Oliver's main female connection.

 

 

I don't think so. If that was the plan, why not do so in the past two episodes? They had the perfect chance to have the two of them bond over grief for Sara, and to have Oliver agree to train Laurel.

 

Instead, in "Sara," Oliver's emotional connections/confessions were all made to Felicity, Diggle, and (sorta) Roy. In "Corto Maltese," his emotional connection was with Thea and (again sorta) Roy. Despite his clear anger, he and Felicity still spent several seconds looking directly into each other's eyes, and stayed fairly close together physically in their one scene; Laurel physically backed off from Oliver, and Oliver flat out refused to have Laurel on his team or train her.  Given that he was willing to train Helena, let Felicity in as soon as she knew his secret, and brought Sara in once she returned, this says something. Possibly just that Laurel has lousy timing with her "please train me," requests, but it's notable. He's actually been less welcoming to her than he was to Barry, who worked in the Arrow Cave the rest of the time that he was there.   Sure, she apparently has the code to the Lair, but that's about it, and we've only seen her in the Lair once, when Oliver was chasing one of the suspects for Sara's murderer.  And once again, she had no involvement in the main plot of the episode, or in what look to be the three major plot lines alluded to in this episode: ARGUS is evil; Malcolm is evil; and Applied Sciences doesn't just make earthquake machines, it makes weapons

that might be shrinking machines

.  

 

Pulling everything else over to the spoilers thread.

Edited October 24, 2014 by quarks

[statsgirl]

One point does not a picture make, or even a line, so I'll see what happens in the following episodes.  It seemed to me as if they were deliberately distancing Oliver from Felicity in this episode even more than in the last one.  When Oliver arrived in the lair and started talking to Felicity he seemed angry at her even before she said she had to get to work, and that was when she said she worked for a week to get a printoff the whateveritwas.  Where was that coming from?  It seemed like more than just frustration from another dead end.  It's also strange that he didn't tell her that Barry was awake, she had to find out from the news site (which she shouldn't have been reading at work anyway) even though Oliver knew it from the first episode.  Why didn't he tell Felicity between then and when Laurel showed up with Sara's body?  He knows Felicity was worried about Barry.

 

SA has said that there is only one woman in Oliver's life this season, but that doesn't mean they won't test out how the show goes over with Laurel as the leading lady/proto-Canary when Felicity isn't around.

[apinknightmare]

Bringing this over from the Corto Maltese thread regarding the emotional distance between Oliver and Felicity in the last ep:

 

While it's true that Oliver made the decision to end things, he did it in a way that left the door open for them in the future (not now, maybe not ever). I think part of him was hoping that she'd wait for him. She's the one who told him to shit or get off the pot, to stop dangling those maybes. Say yes or no, make a decision. He refused to do that and he did it in the worst way possible - by refusing to tell her he didn't love her. So she told him it was over and she walked away. I can see how in Oliver's convoluted, emotionally scarred mind that she rejected him. And then in the last episode, she told him she wasn't going to just hang around the foundry waiting for him to die. Yeah, he had that revelation with Diggle at the end, but he probably doesn't know how to balance the push she gave him to live with the hurt he feels at her telling him that it's over.

 

This is the first ep where we've seen any interaction with them since both of those big things, and they had 30 seconds of screen time together, so the distance doesn't really bother me yet. Yeah, something is missing, but I think that's intentional (and unlike some others, I don't think that it's so they can test out putting Laurel in Felicity's place as a love interest). The show has been pretty heavy handed with the symbolism in O/F's relationship (the light, him telling her that meeting her brought back some of his humanity, Oliver looking longingly at Felicity, Lyla and baby Sara in the same ep he basically decides to give up the possibility of having a family), and I don't think they'd go that hard with it if they were just using it as some kind of placeholder until they can figure out a way to get Oliver and Laurel back together. Not saying Oliver and Laurel won't get back together (although please, no) but they're pretty committed to this relationship IMO, and I think the emotional distance is just emotional distance - it has nothing to do with some sneaky plans to test out another potential O/L romantic pairing. They might want to get Felicity out of the way to firmly establish a close friendship between the two, but the EPs have been talking about a friendship and closeness between them all during the break. Do I trust them? Not so much, but it's not like I can change their plans, and I'll keep watching as long as O&L don't try dating again.

 

I think Oliver and Felicity might be distant for the next ep, but that they'll slowly start taking steps toward each other. They'll start to miss each other and someone (likely Oliver, IMO) will reach out to start mending things, realizing that she's slipping away. It might take a while, and yes, it's frustrating, but I'm invested, so I'll watch. We likely have a long road ahead of us where these two are concerned, because I think Felicity will be rightfully wary of him whenever he decides he'd like to commit to her, but I don't think it has to be full of angst (will it be? that's another question). Oliver will probably have to work for it, and I'll enjoy watching that immensely if it ever happens, especially since working for it isn't really something that Oliver's ever had to do. After we get past the bumpy parts, the road ahead has the potential to be pretty great, I think.

Edited October 24, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Pyramid]

I think Oliver and Felicity might be distant for the next ep, but that they'll slowly start taking steps toward each other. They'll start to miss each other and someone (likely Oliver, IMO) will reach out to start mending things, realizing that she's slipping away.

I wonder if how his relationship with Thea plays out will impact on his views on his relationship with Felicity. Like, Thea's back, he's got an emotional crutch in her ... but if Merlyn related shenanigans pulls her away again he might be more inclined to seek out Felicity in an emotional sense again.

 

I think this goes here. Could go in the Spec without spoilers. Who fecking knows. I'll leave it here just now unless otherwise informed.

[quarks]

And for what it's worth, although he was visibly angry with her, and didn't laugh at the index finger joke, they spent that entire scene in close proximity, staring into each other's eyes again.  And he hasn't always laughed at her jokes before.

 

I can think of four reasons for the anger:

 

1. Self-defense mechanism: he's decided because of contrived drama that he can't be with her. The anger is his way of keeping up distance.

 

2. He's angry that after everything - the breakup kiss, her telling him that she wasn't going to wait for death with him - she's now acting as if everything is normal.

 

3. He does know that she's working for Ray Palmer now (I wish the script had clarified this, since it could be read either way.)  I think his anger is understandable here - from his point of view, she responded to the breakup by going and working for the guy that took over his company. Yeah, I think he was ok with Ray Palmer taking over (and if he does still own 45 or 50% of QC stock, he should be delighted with Ray Palmer taking over) but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd be thrilled that his partner is now working for Ray.

 

4. He's Oliver Queen. He gets angry all the time. I'm kinda sticking with 4. 

 

But the attraction and the connection was still there, and that entire scene - angry but still staring into her eyes - is a pretty strong contrast with the open exasperation, flinging his hands into the air, going "no," and throwing Sara's memory into her face with Laurel.

 

I agree that by this time, between starting to give her hope with the "I need you here...you're not my employee, you're my partner," followed by "Barry's going to wake up," then saying "I love you" as a ruse, then saying "maybe" during the date, then breaking up with her before they even got to have any tiramisu, plus his terrible dating history, that Felicity will probably be wary of any approaches from his side, and she should be.

[ostentatious]

While it's true that Oliver made the decision to end things, he did it in a way that left the door open for them in the future (not now, maybe not ever). I think part of him was hoping that she'd wait for him. She's the one who told him to shit or get off the pot, to stop dangling those maybes. Say yes or no, make a decision. He refused to do that and he did it in the worst way possible - by refusing to tell her he didn't love her. So she told him it was over and she walked away. I can see how in Oliver's convoluted, emotionally scarred mind that she rejected him. And then in the last episode, she told him she wasn't going to just hang around the foundry waiting for him to die. Yeah, he had that revelation with Diggle at the end, but he probably doesn't know how to balance the push she gave him to live with the hurt he feels at her telling him that it's over.

 

I think you're right. It's why I thought last episode that Oliver didn't touch Felicity not just because he would've lost it if he had, but also because I don't think he thinks it's his move now. Not his place to do that. He made their connection physical, she walked out. Can he really make another grab right now? And he can't just take platonic physical comfort from her. That would not work at all. There's just so much he can take.

 

So yeah, even though it isn't *fair*, I think Oliver is feeling - and increasingly will feel - rejected. What she was rejecting wasn't him, but staying still down in a cold dark cave with him, i.e. co-dependency. And to him, Felicity appears largely unaffected by what happened between them in that hospital hallway. The more she moves, the more left behind he'll feel. He's hurt and confused and mad and doesn't have any right to be but is lacking in self-awareness so he never really knows how his actions are really connecting to his feelings. He can explain those things to other people about their situations, like with Thea in 303, but the same advice applied to himself doesn't seem so obvious.

[apinknightmare]

4. He's Oliver Queen. He gets angry all the time. I'm kinda sticking with 4.

 

Plus, I think it was just frustration from Sara's killer's trail running cold. I mean, he has no job, he has no friends that he sees regularly outside of the team, he's not in a relationship, he has nothing to occupy his time other than being the Arrow, so when he fails at that, it's a HUGE failure. Even if he and Felicity weren't on the outs, I wouldn't have expected him to smile in that moment.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I've been thinking Oliver believes Felicity rejected him since 302, that's what I got from him staying physically away from her during the entire episode. In his head, now she has walked out on him twice. I can see that he thought the kiss and the reverse I love you was his Hail Mary "please wait for me", and I also believe Oliver thought Felicity was gonna be in the cave with him waiting for him to die. He's displayed this kind of possessive-yet-oblivious attitude towards her before.

 

I also admit this hasn't been fun to watch for me because what I liked the most about Oliver/Felicity was how uncomplicated they were, and how I didn't have to start trying to put myself in their shoes and get inside their heads to figure out acting choices and writers' decisions before, and now I feel like I'm having to. Why wasn't there a clear scene about Oliver knowing Felicity accepted Palmer's job offer? Why is Felicity acting like nothing happened in 303 if she was clearly hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder in 302? A lot of you guys are talking about the episodes missing something, and I agree. That's pretty clear to me too.

 

However, I really don't think they're keeping Oliver and Felicity apart to give Laurel another try out at Love Interest. None of the cues for LI are there with Laurel/Oliver. They are there with Laurel/Ted. Their scenes together were pretty bland, but the bad boy meets the uptight girl beats were all there. Just at this insane hyperspeed the show has decided to give to relationship development.

 

Also, one of the EPs -- I think Guggenheim -- said in an interview that Oliver and Laurel are at a post-relationship point in their lives, and for some reason the way they said "post-relationship" sounded to me like a largest nail in the coffin of their romance than anything before that. They are past the point of being in any way romantic towards each other.

Edited October 24, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Password]

I also admit this hasn't been fun to watch for me because what I liked the most about Oliver/Felicity was how uncomplicated they were, and how I didn't have to start trying to put myself in their shoes and get inside their heads to figure out acting choices and writers' decisions before, and now I feel like I'm having to. Why wasn't there a clear scene about Oliver knowing Felicity accepted Palmer's job offer? Why is Felicity acting like nothing happened in 303 if she was clearly hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder in 302? A lot of you guys are talking about the episodes missing something, and I agree. That's pretty clear to me too.

 

That's exactly what I'm feeling too. I think this season is really going to test my patience with these two (right now mostly Oliver) and I really hope I'll be able to talk myself away from the ledge concerning them. If I'm trying to figure out too much in my head, IMO the show is failing. That's not to say a little thinking isn't required, but I'm not meant to have to read a character's mind too much otherwise I call OOC.

 

Someone mentioned that when they talk, even though it's stilted, they are still in each others space. That I did actually notice.

[dtissagirl]

Someone mentioned that when they talk, even though it's stilted, they are still in each others space. That I did actually notice.

 

Maybe I am actually trying to see too much in the directing of the episodes, but it was clear to me that the blocking of their big scene in 302 was done entirely to leave heaps of empty space between them to represent Oliver keeping Felicity's at arms' length. And Felicity only gets close to him to say she's not gonna wait in the cave to watch him die, and then walks away.

 

They repeat this pattern a little bit in their one scene in 303, but since Dig and Roy are there as well, the blocking has to include all of them. But the camera mostly moves around Oliver and Felicity, and we only get reaction shots/dialog from Dig and Roy, until Felicity leaves. Oliver initially walks towards her, Felicity goes with the index finger joke gesture, and then he walks away to stay beside Dig, and keeps his distance from her. Felicity says she has to go out to work, Roy goes HUH?, Oliver non-reacts, so Felicity gets closer to explain how she found Thea. Oliver stays tense and non-responsive to her babbling, so she says "Corto Maltese" really close to him, and walks away. It's pretty much the same blocking beats from 302.

 

I'm sometimes bothered by the fact that Oliver rolls his eyes at Felicity *a lot*, but I legit think this is an acting choice Amell made awhile ago, that became a vice. Oliver rolls his eyes at everything and everyone anyway, and he even does it when he thinks Felicity is being adorable [see 301 when she said she's been in worse dates]. But when he does it WHILE being stone-faced lone warrior emo dude, I get serious douchenozzle vibes from him, which I don't think is what I'm supposed to be getting.

Edited October 24, 2014 by dancingnancy

[quarks]

How can Oliver/Laurel be getting more screentime than Oliver/Felicity?

 

 

They aren't.  I'm using YouTube clips to count:

 

The Calm:  

 

Oliver/Felicity - 8.04 minutes of just the two of them, plus the Diggle/Oliver confrontation with Felicity crying in the foreground, plus the Ray Palmer stuff.  Oliver/Laurel had a 30 second scene and never appeared on camera together during the rest of the episode. 

 

Sara: 

 

Oliver/Felicity: Brief scene where she tells him Quentin just called; major emotional "I'm going to die" scene, 2:40 minutes, total of 3:05 minutes.

 

Oliver/Laurel: Two solo scenes: the Laurel/Oliver/Sara/shark scene, and the "your father deserves to know the truth" scene. The first scene is 1:42 minutes; the second is 34 seconds, total of 2:16 minutes.

 

Otherwise, Oliver/Laurel did not have any solo scenes. They did have:

 

Group scene in the foundry, with an Oliver/Laurel hug; Felicity/Roy also in this scene.

 

Group scene in the foundry, with Laurel demanding to tag along to catch Komodo; the rest of Team Arrow in this scene. Oliver tells Laurel not to come along.

 

Confrontation against Komodo: Komodo in this scene. Laurel furious because Oliver unloaded the gun. Oliver annoyed because Laurel is shooting a guy who, as it turns out, has an alibi for Sara's death. 

 

Funeral: Oliver hugs Laurel while gazing at Felicity.

 

Even including the group scenes here, the Oliver/Laurel scenes lasted 5:38 minutes - several minutes less than the solo Oliver/Felicity scenes in the first episode, not counting the Ray Palmer and Diggle/Oliver confrontations where Felicity was around, or the Oliver/Diggle conversation about Felicity.  The rest of Laurel's screentime was with Felicity, Quentin, or the guy in the hospital. 

 

Corto Maltese:

 

Nobody's put this up on YouTube yet, apparently, so I don't have an exact count, but Oliver/Laurel's solo scene is at most one minute, and ends with Oliver walking away from her, exasperated. And that's it for them this episode.

 

Oliver/Felicity don't have a solo scene in this episode, and don't physically touch, but their scene together - tracking Thea/Felicity heading off to work - is a little under a minute, or only slightly less than Oliver/Laurel.

 

Compare season two:

 

"City of Heroes," Two major Oliver/Laurel scenes: their breakup (1.57 minutes) and at Tommy's grave (1.28 minutes), or about 3 minutes, 20 secs.

 

"Identity," Two major Hood/Laurel scenes, which apparently made so little impression on anyone that I can't find them on the first page of YouTube results, but they're there, about three and a half minutes, plus a brief Oliver/Laurel scene.  Four minutes.

 

"Crucible," As far as I can tell/remember, no solo screentime - this was another "Laurel gets kidnapped" episode, but the Arrow/Laurel scenes include Quentin, Black Canary and the Dollmaker.

 

Total - around seven and a half minutes, or more or less the same amount of solo scenes that they've had this season, and a lot less than they had in the first three episodes of the first season.

[apinknightmare]

I also admit this hasn't been fun to watch for me because what I liked the most about Oliver/Felicity was how uncomplicated they were, and how I didn't have to start trying to put myself in their shoes and get inside their heads to figure out acting choices and writers' decisions before, and now I feel like I'm having to. Why wasn't there a clear scene about Oliver knowing Felicity accepted Palmer's job offer? Why is Felicity acting like nothing happened in 303 if she was clearly hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder in 302? A lot of you guys are talking about the episodes missing something, and I agree. That's pretty clear to me too.

 

I guess this just hasn't gotten to me yet because this past ep is the first one after everything was laid out on the line, and I didn't really question anything in any of their scenes in Sara. Felicity made it pretty clear to him that she wasn't going to waste away in that foundry, and that she didn't think that he should either and she wasn't going to stand by and watch him do it. There wasn't any resolution to that, true, because it's more of a season-long thing, but I thought Oliver throwing the dirt on Sara's PINE BOX COFFIN IN A SHALLOW GRAVE, BUT WHATEVER, SHOW was a nice touch to bind them together, even though they are a bit distant right now. I got the impression that Felicity was acting like nothing happened because she put that in a box and is trying to move on (I'm not sure which scene you're referring to with her being hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder - perhaps I've blocked it. ;) ), and she can't be the best she can be for the mission if she's all hung up on her hurt feelings.

 

This ep was definitely missing something, but for me it wasn't so much in the acting or writing as it was in the editing, like the situation with the job with Ray, as you wrote. If we knew how much Oliver knows, then we'd have more insight into Oliver's attitude, but in that particular instance, I believe it really does have to do with not being able to find Sara's killer, and maybe a little bit to do with her not being able to be around at all hours of the night like she probably was when she worked at Buy More. But we kind of do need to know if he's aware of who her employer is. I can't imagine he wouldn't be, but if Oliver's feelings about it are eventually going to be addressed

SA said in some interview the other day that we'd discover how he feels about it in the back half of the fall episodes

, then we should probably get to see when he finds out, huh?

 

I'm willing to wait for things to get better, but TPTB do need to start being more clear with regards to editing choices and whatnot. I don't like having to guess about what may or may not have transpired off camera. Thankfully I don't feel like I'm having to guess at character motivations or feelings yet. 

[NumberCruncher]

While watching this episode, I actually had the same thought as others that it feels like they are getting Felicity out of the way for Laurel. I don't actually believe that the EPs are going to try out O/L at this point, but it does feel like Oliver is distancing himself from Felicity while working on his friendship with Laurel. I don't like it and it doesn't feel right. Despite the EPs proclamations that Laurel and Oliver are friends, the sister swapping, lying, impregnating another woman, etc. tell me otherwise.

I guess I still don't see the show trying to get Felicity out of the way in order to create Laurel/Oliver BFF opportunities. If anything, I'm seeing a whole lot of Oliver being frustrated at Laurel. How many scenes now have we had of him telling her flat out not to engage in hand-to-hand fighting just to have her do it, get hurt, and then see him get mad at her and tell her "I told you so"? 20? Okay...maybe it's only twice but it feels like 20. ;) The point is that nothing is pointing at them eventually hanging out at her place watching chick flicks.

[Angel12d]

But the attraction and the connection was still there, and that entire scene - angry but still staring into her eyes - is a pretty strong contrast with the open exasperation, flinging his hands into the air, going "no," and throwing Sara's memory into her face with Laurel.

 

Agreed. You can see it better in gif form but there is like a couple of seconds of eye contact where I thought they could have angry sex on the table if they were so inclined. A fleeting thought but that proved to me that the connection is still there. It's just kind of covered up with hurt feelings at the moment. 

 

However, I really don't think they're keeping Oliver and Felicity apart to give Laurel another try out at Love Interest. None of the cues for LI are there with Laurel/Oliver. They are there with Laurel/Ted. Their scenes together were pretty bland, but the bad boy meets the uptight girl beats were all there. Just at this insane hyperspeed the show has decided to give to relationship development.

 

Also, one of the EPs -- I think Guggenheim -- said in an interview that Oliver and Laurel are at a post-relationship point in their lives, and for some reason the way they said "post-relationship" sounded to me like a largest nail in the coffin of their romance than anything before that. They are past the point of being in any way romantic towards each other.

 

I agree. Sometimes I do have some worries about them going back to O/L but I think that's more my fear from what KC says (and because comics!) than anything I actually see onscreen. Nothing I've seen this season so far even remotely hints at O/L in a romantic way. I do think they are showing them as friends now and that's fine but I don't see anything beyond that. I actually thought it was pretty telling in 303 where Oliver sees Laurel's bruises and moves towards her and she steps back. The Laurel of old would have run into his arms for comfort but she didn't and that said it all to me. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I guess I still don't see the show trying to get Felicity out of the way in order to create Laurel/Oliver BFF opportunities. If anything, I'm seeing a whole lot of Oliver being frustrated at Laurel. How many scenes now have we had of him telling her flat out not to engage in hand-to-hand fighting just to have her do it, get hurt, and then see him get mad at her and tell her "I told you so"? 20? Okay...maybe it's only twice but it feels like 20. ;) The point is that nothing is pointing at them eventually hanging out at her place watching chick flicks.

 

You know, it's very possible it's more of an anticipation of what is to come.  Last episode we had Oliver comforting Laurel, and I had expected a scene with Oliver hugging Felicity or clasping her hand or something but I never got it.  This episode we didn't have any solo Oliver/Felicity scenes, but we did have the Oliver/Laurel scene where she asked him to train her.  Next episode, Felicity is not really even going to be around since she'll be over on The Flash.  I know that if Laurel becomes BC, she will be right alongside Oliver fighting crime.  And to get to that point, I imagine that the writers will need to improve Oliver and Laurel's relationship.  So I can see them using Felicity's distance from Oliver right now as a way to do that.  Not sure if that makes any sense. 

[dtissagirl]

(I'm not sure which scene you're referring to with her being hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder - perhaps I've blocked it. ;) ), and she can't be the best she can be for the mission if she's all hung up on her hurt feelings.

 

I was talking about their big scene in 302 -- when she asked him how could he be so cold and made the "if you had feelings" jab, I thought she wasn't just talking about Oliver refusing to grieve Sara, but also about keeping Felicity away. If the date hadn't bombed [pun intented], there's no way these two wouldn't be comforting each other, and I think Felicity was hurt that Oliver was keeping her at arms length while also expecting her to have her A-game on.

 

But thanks for reminding me about the throwing dirt scene. I hated that secret funeral so much I kinda forgot about that. Yeah, the symbolism is heavy there, since Oliver was the only one to follow Felicity's lead. Plus him staring at her while hugging Laurel. Those are positive signs, definitely.

 

I guess my main problem is that back in season 2A, even when there was angst between Felicity and Oliver "because of the life that I lead", it never looked like this. And sure, it's too early in the season, and I'm willing to keep watching and wait for these two crazy kids to sort it all out [hopefully sooner rather than later if the breakneck speed of plots keep going]. I'm all for Felicity moving on, and I *hope* that THAT sparks something in Oliver. He already admitted he doesn't wanna die in the cave, so I'm not competely hopeless, but I guess I'm also not that patient? Hee.

 

But what I'm getting from Oliver/Felicity right now is not imo the "good" kind of angst, because it's too depressing. Sara's death is obviously looming over everything, so the sad beats are here to stay for the foreseeable future, but I just... I guess I resent the fact that this inevitable gloominess is affecting my ability to enjoy my 'ship. And I wanna enjoy my 'ship, you know? :)

[apinknightmare]

You know, it's very possible it's more of an anticipation of what is to come.  Last episode we had Oliver comforting Laurel, and I had expected a scene with Oliver hugging Felicity or clasping her hand or something but I never got it.  This episode we didn't have any solo Oliver/Felicity scenes, but we did have the Oliver/Laurel scene where she asked him to train her.  Next episode, Felicity is not really even going to be around since she'll be over on The Flash.  I know that if Laurel becomes BC, she will be right alongside Oliver fighting crime.  And to get to that point, I imagine that the writers will need to improve Oliver and Laurel's relationship.  So I can see them using Felicity's distance from Oliver right now as a way to do that.  Not sure if that makes any sense. 

 

I see what you're saying, but Oliver and Felicity's physical interactions now are loaded in a way that Oliver and Laurel's are not. There's nothing to read into Oliver comforting Laurel - he's the one who knows her the best (the one who knows her at all) out of the group of people who know Sara died, so he was being a good friend to her. He can't touch Felicity now and have it just be comforting, because it means more. He loves her, she loves him. They've decided (for whatever stupid reasons) that they can't pursue that love, so the little things, like comforting touches and quiet words, they hurt. I don't think it'll be that way forever, but for now? Yeah.

 

But even though Oliver and Laurel are interacting more, I don't really see them getting closer. They were the opposite of close in this last ep. In the one before, they were understandably touchy with each other. I won't worry about it until there's something to worry about, but I totally get the anticipatory doom.

[Angel12d]

I guess my main problem is that back in season 2A, even when there was angst between Felicity and Oliver "because of the life that I lead", it never looked like this. And sure, it's too early in the season, and I'm willing to keep watching and wait for these two crazy kids to sort it all out [hopefully sooner rather than later if the breakneck speed of plots keep going]. I'm all for Felicity moving on, and I *hope* that THAT sparks something in Oliver. He already admitted he doesn't wanna die in the cave, so I'm not competely hopeless, but I guess I'm also not that patient? Hee.

 

But what I'm getting from Oliver/Felicity right now is not imo the "good" kind of angst, because it's too depressing. Sara's death is obviously looming over everything, so the sad beats are here to stay for the foreseeable future, but I just... I guess I resent the fact that this inevitable gloominess is affecting my ability to enjoy my 'ship. And I wanna enjoy my 'ship, you know? :)

 

I agree that this O/F isn't the 'good' kind of angst. I guess I expected more longing between them - moments where I could actually see that they love each other but can't be together even though they both want to. The only reason I'm not too worried yet is because it's so early in the season and also because they barely had any screen time together in 303 so there's been no chance of those moments yet. If we get to episode 307 and they are still acting like this, then we have a major problem. But I'm hoping things start to thaw between them during Felicity's episode in 305, especially because

the episode description made it sound like they were working together. 

[Carrie Ann]

While it's true that Oliver made the decision to end things, he did it in a way that left the door open for them in the future (not now, maybe not ever). I think part of him was hoping that she'd wait for him. She's the one who told him to shit or get off the pot, to stop dangling those maybes. Say yes or no, make a decision. He refused to do that and he did it in the worst way possible - by refusing to tell her he didn't love her. So she told him it was over and she walked away. I can see how in Oliver's convoluted, emotionally scarred mind that she rejected him. And then in the last episode, she told him she wasn't going to just hang around the foundry waiting for him to die. Yeah, he had that revelation with Diggle at the end, but he probably doesn't know how to balance the push she gave him to live with the hurt he feels at her telling him that it's over.

 

I think you're right. It's why I thought last episode that Oliver didn't touch Felicity not just because he would've lost it if he had, but also because I don't think he thinks it's his move now. Not his place to do that. He made their connection physical, she walked out. Can he really make another grab right now? And he can't just take platonic physical comfort from her. That would not work at all. There's just so much he can take.

 

So yeah, even though it isn't *fair*, I think Oliver is feeling - and increasingly will feel - rejected. What she was rejecting wasn't him, but staying still down in a cold dark cave with him, i.e. co-dependency. And to him, Felicity appears largely unaffected by what happened between them in that hospital hallway. The more she moves, the more left behind he'll feel. He's hurt and confused and mad and doesn't have any right to be but is lacking in self-awareness so he never really knows how his actions are really connecting to his feelings. He can explain those things to other people about their situations, like with Thea in 303, but the same advice applied to himself doesn't seem so obvious.

 

Yeah, I've been thinking Oliver believes Felicity rejected him since 302, that's what I got from him staying physically away from her during the entire episode. In his head, now she has walked out on him twice. I can see that he thought the kiss and the reverse I love you was his Hail Mary "please wait for me", and I also believe Oliver thought Felicity was gonna be in the cave with him waiting for him to die. He's displayed this kind of possessive-yet-oblivious attitude towards her before.

 

I don't know. I can see some of this, but at the same time I think maybe this is giving Oliver both too much and too little credit. :) Is that possible?

 

On the one hand, yes, I can see how his pain could be filtered through his damaged heart to come out with him feeling rejected by Felicity. At the same time, he is a grown man with an overdeveloped guilt complex, and I think he absolutely feels that he was the one who did the hurting in both of those big scenes in 3x01 and 3x02. He knows he was the one who made the decision to end things in The Calm, and that he hurt her. And the editing effed with things here, but I think we're supposed to read that moment in 3x02 that @dancingnancy references above as Felicity sort of imploring him to respond to her, to reach out to her, and he lets that moment pass him by. You can see him regret it as she's walking away. He's aware that he did that.

 

So I don't think he's waiting for her to make another move. He may feel that it's not his place to touch her--and it's NOT, I actually don't want him to do that--but that doesn't excuse being cold to her, making snotty faces, shutting her down, making other people talk to her. That's not about giving her her space, or feeling hurt by her. That's about protecting himself from the pain of being around her when he can't be with her the way he wants to be. I understand it, but it doesn't make it OK, and he's handling this in about the worst possible way. If Felicity knew she was risking their entire friendship when she said yes to that date, she never would have done it. And in 3x03, we saw her trying to be normal and him shutting it down. So it's on him to fix it. I suspect that if this isn't addressed in the one scene Felicity is in at the end of Ep 4, then it will be at some point soon. Because the EPs have to know that this dynamic is not enjoyable to watch.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Starfish35]

This may not make much sense. I've been trying to figure out how to word something I've been thinking about, but I'm still not sure it's going to make sense. So apologies in advance for the rambling. But. I think maybe part of the reason people are having a hard time with this is that this show was set up for the female lead and the romantic lead to be the same person, and that was Laurel. It's not that they HAVE to be the same person. You can have a show where those are different people, but it kind of has to be structured differently, and Arrow wasn't. And now not only is Laurel not the romantic lead anymore, she was effectively demoted as the female lead for an entire season. And now the show's trying to put her back into that position, because on paper anyway Katie Cassidy is still Arrow's female lead. But it feels wrong because 1) Felicity is the romantic lead now and as the main woman in Oliver's life it feels like she should be leading lady, and 2) during season one when Laurel was being treated like leading lady, she was also the romantic lead, and 3) the audience had an entire season to get used to have Laurel mostly in the background.

Wow, I'm really not saying this well, but I think for this show the audience has been conditioned to think leading lady = romantic lead. And it complicates things with Laurel being Oliver's ex and more importantly part of the show's original OTP. I think audiences could deal with that as long as Laurel was effectively demoted, but from the show's point of view, you can't keep treating your leading lady like a background character forever. You either write her out and replace her (something they've shown themselves to be unwilling to do) or you give her the attention a lead character deserves. But with that increased attention comes the feeling that the writers are trying to make her more important in Oliver's life than Felicity. It's not necessarily that that's what they're actually trying to do, but it's part of the problem of having this whole show revolve so much around Oliver. Laurel is the female lead. Next to Oliver, she should be getting the most amount of attention (I'm saying this as someone who can't stand Laurel). And possibly if the writers had never let her slip out of that role in season two, putting her back into it wouldn't feel so jarring, but they did. But that increased amount of attention means either she's off in her own story, which I think they're trying to reduce happening as much this season, or she's somewhere in Oliver's orbit. And it's not that Oliver can only have one woman in his life, but I think maybe the feeling from her resuming leading lady duties is that she's being treated as "more important".

Wow I'm not sure that makes any sense whatsoever, but since I just spent half an hour typing it out, I'm going to post it anyway. :(

[AustenChick]

Reading your guys' convo about the O/F dynamic and what it's become made me think about how I would react in a situation like this. I'd be on guard and super defensive. I think that may be how both O/F are dealing with the fall out. Especially Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

And possibly if the writers had never let her slip out of that role in season two, putting her back into it wouldn't feel so jarring, but they did. But that increased amount of attention means either she's off in her own story, which I think they're trying to reduce happening as much this season, or she's somewhere in Oliver's orbit. And it's not that Oliver can only have one woman in his life, but I think maybe the feeling from her resuming leading lady duties is that she's being treated as "more important".

Wow I'm not sure that makes any sense whatsoever, but since I just spent half an hour typing it out, I'm going to post it anyway. :(

 

You make sense. :)

 

She wasn't really a major player for most of last season, and now it seems like she's second only to Oliver, what with her BC journey underway. It does feel jarring, since she's been featured so heavily in the past few episodes and she went from having an almost non-existent (at least, onscreen) relationship with Oliver to what I guess we're supposed to be seeing as a super close friendship? It's tough to gauge anything by these first few eps, and probably tough to judge by the first ten, since they shifted gears midway through last season to showcase Lance drama.

[NumberCruncher]

I see what you're saying, but Oliver and Felicity's physical interactions now are loaded in a way that Oliver and Laurel's are not. There's nothing to read into Oliver comforting Laurel - he's the one who knows her the best (the one who knows her at all) out of the group of people who know Sara died, so he was being a good friend to her. He can't touch Felicity now and have it just be comforting, because it means more. He loves her, she loves him. They've decided (for whatever stupid reasons) that they can't pursue that love, so the little things, like comforting touches and quiet words, they hurt. I don't think it'll be that way forever, but for now? Yeah.

This. Of course Oliver can hug Laurel--he's not in love with her (unlike Felicity). I'm sure he wants to be hugging Felicity but he can't either because of his choice or hers.

[snip]

...But I'm hoping things start to thaw between them during Felicity's episode in 305, especially because

the episode description made it sound like they were working together. 

Well we know that

Mama Smoak has scenes with Oliver so even if they're working together I wouldn't put it past the writers to have Mama Smoak randomly mention that she has noticed something going on between him and Felicity

.

[quarks]

I think it's a "when" Laurel becomes Black Canary, not an "if."

 

But I'm seeing a major, major difference between the way Oliver reacts to everyone else joining Team Arrow, and his reaction to Laurel:

 

1. Diggle: After he's forced to reveal his secret, Oliver actively recruits him and spends weeks training him before they start heading out into the field together.

 

2. Helena: After she guesses his secret, Oliver actively recruits her, trains her, and buys her a costume.

 

3. Felicity: After he's forced to reveal his secret, Oliver invites her to join Team Arrow. Later, when she insists on joining missions (the very next episode, the gambling den, the earthquake machine, the Dollmaker, and so on) he protests, but allows her to work with him, eventually reaching the point where he willingly puts her at risk to bring down Slade.

 

4. Roy: When Roy says he wants to help the Hood, at the start of the second season (the first chance he's had to say this), Oliver initially says no, but by the end of that episode, Oliver agrees to let Roy gather intel for him in the Glades.

 

5. Barry: I can't believe you guys TOLD HIM, but sure, now that he's here, let's have him work with us.

 

6. Sara: Hi, Sara! Delighted to have you join us.

 

7. Lyla/Nyssa in Unthinkable: Hi, Lyla! Can you and Dig go and take down Amanda Waller for me? Thanks. Nyssa? Not thrilled about the whole assassin thing, but, things are kinda desperate, so ok.

 

8. Laurel: Agrees to work with him in "Honor thy Father," decides at the end of that episode not to work with him. Asks to work with him in "Burned," resulting in Quentin setting up a trap for them.  Offers to work with him at the end of "Betrayal," saying she's willing to take the risk. Oliver says no.  (And then lets Felicity work with him in the very next episode.)  Offers to work with him in "Blind Spot."  Oliver reluctantly says yes; by the end of the episode, he tells Diggle/Felicity that Laurel has been his blind spot, and it's time to move on.  Offers to work with him again in "City of Blood," Oliver says no. Offers to work with him again in "Sara," Oliver says no.  Asks him to train her in "Corto Maltese," Oliver says no.

 

It's glaring. Oliver has accepted assistance from everyone else, including Amanda Waller aka the most hands down evil person on the show except maybe Malcolm (ok, that may be just me), Sebastian Blood, and the League of Assassins. The only person he's consistently saying no to is Laurel, and I don't think this has much to do with their relationship or lack thereof: I think it's that he recognizes that she's a liability. 

 

This goes well beyond any issues of physical training or even honesty - Barry wasn't physically trained either, and started out with lying to people, but Oliver was fine with having him stick around in the Arrow Cave. The issue is exactly what we've been saying on these forums: Laurel continually changes her mind on people - including how she views the Hood/Arrow.  She tried to have a SWAT team arrest him. She constantly has to be rescued. And I think it's notable that the main episode that made Oliver's onscreen kill count higher than Slade's is "Betrayal," where Oliver had to kill 24 people in order to save her.

 

So I don't think it's just an issue of restoring a friendship between Oliver/Laurel - they are friends now. It's proving that she's not a liability. And so far, the last two episodes have not been encouraging in that direction.

[ostentatious]

I don't think he's waiting for her to make a move at all. I think he just wants her to be *still*. With him. In a cave. In the dark.

 

But yeah, the casual touching can't happen. Before 301, the two hugs were initiated by her, and he did that thing he does where he focuses in the distance and breathes, didn't push her away but didn't embrace her as firmly as she was embracing him. But there were the shoulder touches, obviously, and the face touches.

 

Now...we won't see that again until he blows. And then...hoo boy.

[Ceylon5]

Quarks, of your list, every one had something specific to offer: Diggle, Helena, Sara, Lyla & Nyssa were already all trained fighters, Felicity was a computer genius and Barry had scientific/medical skill.  All these things are useful to Oliver. Roy is a minor exception in that he was only fully allowed into the team because of his Mirakuru situation which they were trying to help him with, but that also made him pretty useful at times.  What relevant skills does Laurel have?  The ability to boss people around and cry a lot are not especially useful skills in the grander scheme of things!  No wonder Oliver isn't sold on having her hanging about getting underfoot and making annoying demands.

[SonofaBiscuit]

So we have Laurel gaining more screentime as the show tries to re-establish her as leading lady and Felicity off with Ray Palmer as Laurel tries to convince Oliver to let her fight crime alongside him (not right now, but all throughout this season).  I think that this is probably why I feel like Felicity is being shoved aside and replaced when in reality, she's probably not. 

[Angel12d]

So we have Laurel gaining more screentime as the show tries to re-establish her as leading lady and Felicity off with Ray Palmer as Laurel tries to convince Oliver to let her fight crime alongside him (not right now, but all throughout this season).  I think that this is probably why I feel like Felicity is being shoved aside and replaced when in reality, she's probably not. 

 

Think of it this way - she's not the love interest anymore so they have to give her something to do. Harsh? Probably. But true nonetheless. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't think he's waiting for her to make a move at all. I think he just wants her to be *still*. With him. In a cave. In the dark.

 

Yeah. I really think there's some completely irrational feelings of betrayal going on in Oliver's head that Felicity is moving on with her life, instead of staying in the foundry at his beck and call like she did before.

 

@Carrie-Ann, I agree with what you're saying about Oliver knowing he hurt Felicity. But I also think he truly believes he's doing what's best for her as well as protecting himself. I just don't think he ever expected her to call him on it, or to not accept his doom and gloom resigned fate. I think because Oliver has been taking Felicity for granted for a good while, he never thought her reaction would  be "well, tough, I'm outta here." Hence his feeling hurt. But yes, I think the ball is in his court to fix it. I'm just not sure, from his POV, if he also thinks that.

 

One of my friends made a comment about Oliver last season that stayed with me -- he is a grown man who doesn't know how to be a grown man. The 5 years of hell made him not just emotionally stunted, but also years behind everyone in knowing how to be a grown up. He spent his mid twenties learning how to be a survivor/soldier/assassin, but he never went through the ordinary growing pains of adulthood -- finding work, a place to live, learning how to have relationships, figuring out WHAT he wants from relationships -- he legit doesn't know how to do any of that. And I think the show is taking that into consideration. His attempt at being a CEO last season was so completely botched he was OK with Palmer winning the QC bid. He has no job and he's not looking for one. He's currently living in a basement, and only sleeping in a bed because Felicity bought him one. Oliver is basically a homeless jobless dude with abs right now. And it makes sense, because being just The Arrow doesn't gel with having a place to live and a job and a girlfriend.

 

And if we look at the relationships he's had post-island, they were all pretty disatrous because he doesn't know how to go about them. Helena was all about Oliver trying to save her from becoming like himself. McKenna was his attempt at normalcy, except he was lying to her about everything. His relationship with Sara was doomed from the start because they knew they had no future, and were basically keeping each other warm until they weren't.

 

Felicity is his first attempt at having a real relationship with someone who actually knows him, and well, they got blew up and Sara died. So Oliver retreated into what he knows -- how to be a soldier/survivor, and not much else. It's still huge that he admitted he doesn't wanna die in the cave, and I'm fairly certain Diggle and Lyla's relationship is being used by the narrative as a huge shiny lampshade on how adults behave when they love each other and want to be together, but it's gonna take A LOT for Oliver to realize that he'll have to do some serious work before he can try again with Felicity. Like learning how to be a real grown up with a real grown up life.

Edited October 24, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Ceylon5]

I haven't really had the sense that Laurel is "more" in the episodes than normal - this might well be because I glaze over when she's on the screen, so she doesn't impact me much.  But also, I don't really feel any degree of warmth from Oliver towards her (again, I could easily have dozed through something important), so I don't see her as a looming Oliver/Laurel threat.  I don't think she'll be in the Lair as much as I originally feared she might, because Oliver doesn't actually seem to want her there.  To be honest, the vibe I get from Oliver is that he'd be as happy as much of the audience would be if Laurel just vanished into thin air one day, never to return.  But I could just be projecting...

 

As for Felicity, she's had as much screen-time in the first two episodes as she's ever had, and will have more in the 5th episode than ever before.  Also, I count her screen-time on The Flash (which looks to be pretty substantial) as part of the season, so aside from slightly less time in 303 and presumably minimal time in 304, she'll still have had a fair chunk of screen-time by 305.  How things shape up thereafter, I have no idea, but I'm relatively optimistic that she won't be shoved aside.  The problem with 303 and 304 is a severe lack of Oliver/Felicity scenes, and I think that's what's causing some general feelings of frustration.  But maybe the show is trying to resist zipping through Oliver and Felicity's relationship as quickly as they zip through everything else.  After all, there was no point in breaking them up in the first place if they can't plausibly keep them apart for at least a few episodes, and they seem to be afraid that if they put them in close proximity, the magical chemistry will ruin their carefully laid road-block plans and make that whole plot-line look as daft as it is.  Or maybe they just find her light scenes with Ray more fun to write than angsty ones with Oliver, so they're letting the angst bubble unheeded in the background while they play with newer, shinier things and will return to it later in the season when the mood takes them again.

[Pyramid]

Given that Ollie was a billionaire play boy, cocksmith back in the day, I wonder if part of his reaction to felicity walking away is because he has no experience of that and he really has no idea how to act.

[writersblock51]

I think David Ramsey's recent interviews make a clear connection between what Diggle and Lyla have going on and what that means to Oliver and Felicity.  Diggle sees himself as Oliver's older, wiser brother of sorts - someone who had been through stuff like Oliver but is at a different level now.  A level that Oliver now wants to get to - and Diggle can help him with that.

[NumberCruncher]

I think David Ramsey's recent interviews make a clear connection between what Diggle and Lyla have going on and what that means to Oliver and Felicity.  Diggle sees himself as Oliver's older, wiser brother of sorts - someone who had been through stuff like Oliver but is at a different level now.  A level that Oliver now wants to get to - and Diggle can help him with that.

Yep, both DR and the producers have been saying this for awhile now. I don't think it's a coincidence. They're clearly trying to map out Oliver's journey to becoming a fully functioning, well-adjusted adult and they're using Diggle to show him the way. I thought it was also interesting Marc Guggenheim answered yes on Twitter when somebody asked him if

Oliver was getting an actual apartment outside of the foundry

this season. That seems like yet another example of that transition.

[writersblock51]

As much as I hope that Oliver and Felicity figure their stuff out, in the long run, and get together, the constant Oliver & Diggle friendship/brotherhood is one of the best parts of the show for me.  I love that DR has a firm grip on it, too, and talks about it so clearly and down-to-earth.

[Angel12d]

Has there been any discussion about why Oliver can be Oliver Queen with his sister ("If we're not together then we're not really alive") but he can't be Oliver Queen with Felicity? I know these are two very different kinds of relationships, two different kinds of love, but it's not really adding up to me right now. Anyone have any thoughts? 

[KenyaJ]

Quarks, of your list, every one had something specific to offer: Diggle, Helena, Sara, Lyla & Nyssa were already all trained fighters, Felicity was a computer genius and Barry had scientific/medical skill.  All these things are useful to Oliver. Roy is a minor exception in that he was only fully allowed into the team because of his Mirakuru situation which they were trying to help him with, but that also made him pretty useful at times.  What relevant skills does Laurel have?  The ability to boss people around and cry a lot are not especially useful skills in the grander scheme of things!  No wonder Oliver isn't sold on having her hanging about getting underfoot and making annoying demands.

 

The sad thing is that she did have something specific to offer -- making sure the justice system worked and all the bad guys Oliver caught/thwarted were sent off to jail. And based on how many people said they found themselves liking, or at least not minding, Laurel in "The Calm," that seemed to be the perfect role for her. But the show won't let that be enough, and instead they have to shoehorn her into a superhero role that feels completely superfluous to Oliver's journey.

[Ceylon5]

Has there been any discussion about why Oliver can be Oliver Queen with his sister ("If we're not together then we're not really alive") but he can't be Oliver Queen with Felicity? I know these are two very different kinds of relationships, two different kinds of love, but it's not really adding up to me right now. Anyone have any thoughts? 

 

Can I just say that I found that a really weird, creepy thing to say to his sister?  What does that even mean?

 

And, yes, it's a stupid plot inconsistency.  I'm not sure whether to bother blaming Oliver or just go directly to the source and say that it was just crappy writing.

 

ETA:  UNLESS (just had a thought) - what if Oliver's whole "I must be Arrow, not Oliver" thing, which happened before Sara's death actually got blown out of the water by Sara's death.  What if he's now realised that he does want to be Oliver (hence the "I don't want to die down here"), but because he's just torpedoed his relationship with Felicity and lost QC, the only thing he could think to do that might still work is repair his relationship with his sister.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Ceylon5

[AustenChick]

 

Has there been any discussion about why Oliver can be Oliver Queen with his sister ("If we're not together then we're not really alive") but he can't be Oliver Queen with Felicity?

 

Maybe because he's still lying to Thea -- she doesn't know he's the Arrow yet so he can still play Oliver Queen, big brother. But Felicity knows everything about him -- there's nothing compartmentalized. I think that freaks Oliver out. When Oliver said, "I'm scared what would happen if I allow myself to be Oliver Queen," overtly he's saying he has to be the Arrow and nothing else -- but allowing himself to be a normal person that's loved completely for who they are -- the good and the bad -- Oliver doesn't know how to do that or accept that into his life. With Thea, he's still playing a role -- he's not completely who he is. 

[apinknightmare]

Can I just say that I found that a really weird, creepy thing to say to his sister?  What does that even mean?

 

ETA:  UNLESS (just had a thought) - what if Oliver's whole "I must be Arrow, not Oliver" thing, which happened before Sara's death actually got blown out of the water by Sara's death.  What if he's now realised that he does want to be Oliver (hence the "I don't want to die down here"), but because he's just torpedoed his relationship with Felicity and lost QC, the only thing he could think to do that might still work is repair his relationship with his sister.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One or more members of that writing staff are VC Andrews fans, there is no doubt in my mind. There's just way too much sister swapping/incestuous undertones in some of this stuff, haha.

 

And I agree with you. I think Sara dying made him decide he wanted to be Oliver Queen too. The rest of the season is (I guess) going to be him trying to figure out how to do that.

Edited October 24, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Orion]

Has there been any discussion about why Oliver can be Oliver Queen with his sister ("If we're not together then we're not really alive") but he can't be Oliver Queen with Felicity? I know these are two very different kinds of relationships, two different kinds of love, but it's not really adding up to me right now. Anyone have any thoughts? 

 

I'm probably reaching on this but I think the writers wanted the scene where Oliver brings Felicity back to the Arrow cave after the restaurant explosion to serve as his justification for not being able to be with her. Oliver says, "The only explanation ... I lost my focus (looks to Felicity on the med table)."  I think for Oliver loving Felicity and feeling happy with her softens him and distracts him from protecting the city. Loving her prevents him from putting her into a box and being able to put that box on self in his mind during Arrow activities.  He was suppose to be focused on taking down a bad guy in the sewer during "The Calm" but instead he was thinking about the date to the extent that Quentin noticed something different about him. That loss of focus almost cost Felicity her life and did get other people killed. Felicity has never let him turn himself off emotionally. She's going to want all of Oliver emotionally invested in a relationship and he's afraid of screwing it up and ruining their relationship, but he has to stop it because in his mind bad things happen when he let's Oliver Queen make decisions.

 

When SA said about Oliver getting his humanity back and having to decide how much of that he wants back, does he want QC back, does he want to love someone, I kind of got the impression that fighting for QC and fighting for Felicity would mirror each other. I thought what Oliver says walking down the steps after loosing QC to Ray was really important too. "I couldn't make time for QC last year. That's selfish. That's something the old me would have done." So combining that Oliver is trying to be better he's trying not to be the ass that asks Felicity to wait for him because that's selfish but knowing that he can't lose focus by loving her right now he has to let her go - let the company and her go. Which plays into what others have said about Ray being perfect on paper for both of them.

 

Oliver is only interested in relationships that he can have but that don't take away his absolute focus. He knows he can have relationship with Thea and still be the Arrow because he did it for 2 years. He believes the reason the relationship with Thea didn't work out was because of his lies not that he wasn't emotionally available to her which I'm sure will come up again this year.  Thea and the emotions he feels for her fit into a nice little box. The love he feels for her is simple it's not all consuming like a romantic love. And actually Thea was pretty easy for him to handle during season two. He would show up and talk to her, see her around at Verdant, have dinners with her and generally be her brother. Felicity and his feelings for her are never going to be simple or easy - not for someone as damaged as Oliver with no track record of a successful relationship.

 

But the good news is in the end he'll figure out what literally everyone watching this show already knows - Diggle is always right. "You think the people you let in are taking your edge. I think it gives you one. Maybe a stronger one. You can stare down death with something to live for or not. Something to live for is better"

 

Or I'm over thinking this and the writers just needed an excuse for him to go get Thea to bring her into the storyline.

[apinknightmare]

Or I'm over thinking this and the writers just needed an excuse for him to go get Thea to bring her into the storyline.

 

Not sure if you're over thinking it, but it works for me!

[Danny Franks]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One or more members of that writing staff are VC Andrews fans, there is no doubt in my mind. There's just way too much sister swapping/incestuous undertones in some of this stuff, haha.

 

No kidding. And it's not just Arrow, either, what with Barry Allen being in love with his pseudo-sister. And the creepiest thing is, I understand that fans are supposed to actually root for Barry to win his sister over in the end. But maybe they just figured, 'Game of Thrones has incest, and people like that show so...'

 

I just can't get over the craziness of them putting the obstacle of, 'I genuinely think of you as my little brother' in the path of supposed true love. It's such a remarkably stupid decision. Arguably even stupider than using, 'you fucked my sister behind my back and now she's dead because of you' as an obstacle. If it was being presented as, 'erm, Barry, maybe you should get over this creepy obsession and find a girl who might actually be interested in you', then I could understand it. That might actually be an interesting journey for a character to take, at the beginning of a show.

 

I'm probably reaching on this but I think the writers wanted the scene where Oliver brings Felicity back to the Arrow cave after the restaurant explosion to serve as his justification for not being able to be with her. Oliver says, "The only explanation ... I lost my focus (looks to Felicity on the med table)."  I think for Oliver loving Felicity and feeling happy with her softens him and distracts him from protecting the city. Loving her prevents him from putting her into a box and being able to put that box on self in his mind during Arrow activities.

 

 

Yeah, it's pretty much Hero Can't Be Happy 101. The guy has to sacrifice his own wants and needs to keep the city safe. But Oliver's been doing that for two years now. Remember when he decided he couldn't be with a woman because of what happened to McKenna? Then changed his mind the next week? Remember when he told Tommy he couldn't be in a relationship, but changed his mind the next week? Felicity is what, the third woman he can't be in a relationship with? Or maybe the fourth.

 

At some point, they have to stop going back to that well, because it's dry. I've seen this sort of story done really well, in things that are written much better than Arrow, but even then they didn't have the hero change his mind multiple times, only to change it back again because the narrative needs him to be miserable. I've said this before about shows, but as soon as you start writing the characters to fit the narrative you want, you're doomed. You have to write the narrative to fit the characters, or your story won't resonate.

[foreverevolving]

Reading your guys' convo about the O/F dynamic and what it's become made me think about how I would react in a situation like this. I'd be on guard and super defensive. I think that may be how both O/F are dealing with the fall out. Especially Oliver.

Yes.

and if you'll allow me:

 

 

 

Because i said the exact same things only a couple of weeks ago. This is why i have zero issues with Oliver manpain, bitchy, angry whatever state right now. it hasn't even been a month since 3x01&02 happened in their timeline. in the course of less than a week their entire relationship changed.. drastically! they are now in a stage where they are trying to redraw its boundaries, meanwhile they are hurting because they love each other and they want to be together, but... shit hit the fan and it's not an option: because they are both emotionally damaged individuals who are still trying to find who the hell they are. 

so as I've said, I have zero issues with all that is happening and their current road.. Why? because i've been on a similar one with Doug and Carol from ER. The two dated pre show, but it was a poisonous relationship (he was a lying cheating idiot and she constantly took him back.. which means she was too weak to walk away from it. FYI according to Carol it was him who ended their relationship). During ER seasons 1-3 it was obvious that the two still loved each other.. but it took them both 3 years (okay 3 from the premiere episode, so technically it was probably 4-5 in their own personal timeline) until they got back together and even then old insecurities and issues kept popping up through the entire first year of their relationship. But it was during those three years that we saw both characters grow and mature and gain confidence and understanding of who they were and what they wanted, it was enough growth that when they did get back together (especially the 3rd time around when JM left ER) they had a truly mature relationship (even with the issues) because emotionally they were both ready for it.

 

In fact, in terms of emotional growth I see a strong similarity between Olicity and D&C when comparing the male-male/female-female characters.

 

ETA: the fact that my entire post can also be used to back up Oliver and Fakanary relationship made me whimper for a sec. but it also only helps to prove that with a better actress, actual chemistry between their leading actors they could have made it work. it's kind of sad when your straight character has more romantic and sexual chemistry with his straight best friend than with his female romantic lead.

 

*FYI I am growing infatuated by the Oliver x Tommy slash (with Felicity threesome too) fanfics.. does Oliver and Tommy have a ship name? we really need to get them one... Tomiver? Olivey? OllieTom? Wiz-Arrow? Queerlyn?

Oh!! I kind of like the last one... I know, I know! not very PC, But.! it has a nice ring to it and it doesn't sound like a rip-off from Olicity or Lauliver.

Edited October 25, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Orion]

Yeah, it's pretty much Hero Can't Be Happy 101. The guy has to sacrifice his own wants and needs to keep the city safe. But Oliver's been doing that for two years now. Remember when he decided he couldn't be with a woman because of what happened to McKenna? Then changed his mind the next week? Remember when he told Tommy he couldn't be in a relationship, but changed his mind the next week? Felicity is what, the third woman he can't be in a relationship with? Or maybe the fourth.

 

At some point, they have to stop going back to that well, because it's dry. I've seen this sort of story done really well, in things that are written much better than Arrow, but even then they didn't have the hero change his mind multiple times, only to change it back again because the narrative needs him to be miserable. I've said this before about shows, but as soon as you start writing the characters to fit the narrative you want, you're doomed. You have to write the narrative to fit the characters, or your story won't resonate.

 

Oh I agree they can't keep doing the will they won't they version specific to superheroes but I think part of the problem is they are rebooting the love interest from season one with a different partner. Felicity is getting some of the exact same story beats Laurel got in season one, the hospital hall way scene where the love interest asks the hero to tell her/Tommy that he doesn't love her, turning a cold shoulder to push her away to protect himself and her. It seems more repetitive than it is because they had a very specific idea of how they wanted the main love relationship to go in this show and Laurel/Oliver not working out caused them to have to redo certain scenes.

 

And in the writers defense (*whines* I really don't want to defend them)  Helena, McKenna, and Sara left Oliver so with those relationships the women were the ones with the tropes (Bad girl can't get the hero, This isn't going to work out so why even try, and I can't be the person you need - I'm to damaged. Respectively). The only two who have had Hero tropes thrown at them were Laurel and Felicity. Laurel got Superheroes stay single, she can't know my identity and someone else loves you better than I can. Felicity got because of the life that I lead, it's to dangerous, superheroes stay single and coming up you'll be happier/safer with someone else.  So it's not much consolation but at least the writers are moving from one trope to another and not just having Oliver dig his heels in and say NO I can't. It's a process. It's annoying but al least we are moving.