Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Those scene were nice but I didn't see real heart eyes in them.  He was amused by her, and he was fond of her but it was more like how he was fond of Thea in s1.

The gif from The Dodger looks like heart eyes but I remember being disappointed when I saw the episode because I was expecting a "Wow" and didn't see it.  That's the problem with gifs and vids, they can get you to see things that weren't in the show itself (exhibit A: Lauriver OTP vids).

[BkWurm1]

So before she knew he was the hood guy.  I find that period of interaction fascination.  

On one hand, he was putting on the Oliver Queen persona, but we also know that Felicity was the first person that he was able to see and react to as a person without all his regular baggage.

 So I tend to think that he was being genuine in the moment, but from the perspective of who he'd have been if the Hood didn't exist, if that makes sense.  Once she knew his secret, he IMO did see her as someone he needed to worry about keeping safe, so he no longer was able to be as light as he had been acting around her, but at the same time, i don't really think after the initial moment they met that he was putting on an act.  Which is all the more complicated to suggest since he was clearly lying to her, but since she also clearly KNEW he was lying to her and yet still wanted to help, the interaction was still genuine on both sides.  I feel like Oliver for that brief window, was able to let down his guard and access a part of him that he wouldn't be able to reach again for a couple years.   

19 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

It's from 109, when Oliver asks Felicity for help tacking down the Arrows Malcolm (unbeknownst to him, at the time) was using. That was the "You're remarkable," "Thank you for remarking on it" scene. I loved that so much!

ETA: And yes, that was when Felicity told him she was Jewish.

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

I loved loved loved the gold dress scene, especially because there was such a difference in his and Digg's reaction. 

He had "a spark of lust" to quote @BkWurm1

Digg definitely thought Felicity looked pretty but it was a completely different kind of acknowledgement.

It was such a shippy moment for me. 

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That first gif is absolutely heart eyes, lol.  Do you know when it is from?  

S1 when Oliver goes back to Felicity to get her to find out where the arrow was made. And they have the 'You're remarkable" exchange. :)

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Those scene were nice but I didn't see real heart eyes in them.  He was amused by her, and he was fond of her but it was more like how he was fond of Thea in s1.

The gif from The Dodger looks like heart eyes but I remember being disappointed when I saw the episode because I was expecting a "Wow" and didn't see it.  That's the problem with gifs and vids, they can get you to see things that weren't in the show itself (exhibit A: Lauriver OTP vids).

I agree that gifs can lose context, but IMO he was totally hearteyeing her in the first gif. And I felt the same way watching that entire scene...repeatedly...LOL

[BkWurm1]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Those scene were nice but I didn't see real heart eyes in them.  He was amused by her, and he was fond of her but it was more like how he was fond of Thea in s1.

The gif from The Dodger looks like heart eyes but I remember being disappointed when I saw the episode because I was expecting a "Wow" and didn't see it.  That's the problem with gifs and vids, they can get you to see things that weren't in the show itself (exhibit A: Lauriver OTP vids).

I agree the deeps of his feelings weren't the same early on vs season three, but I think the early sparkle still has real meaning for where they were.  He wasn't probably thinking of spending his life with her, but she made him happy in that moment and every moment of genuine happiness, no matter how fleeting, were IMO important then. 

As for the Dodger episode.  I DID see it in the episode. :D

I laughed out loud at his reaction and rewound it several times.  I miss their caper episodes.  

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I agree that she made him happy in s1. But I don't think he started thinking of her in sexual terms unlike that hot, sweaty, Tawzan swing in 2x01.

[leopardprint]

I'm so glad you guys all remember it as the iconic "you're remarkable" scene and I'm like it's the "I'm Jewish" scene.  ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Are there hearteyes in the QC CEO's office flashback scene? 

I think Felicity also never really accepted his attempts to put up a front, she just blew by those roadblocks, haha and since she didn't know him before she didn't have that reference of pre-Island Ollie clouding her perception of his "Ollie Queen" persona. Especially in the "Can I trust you scene?" 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Mellowyellow]

I thought that "You're not the only one who can reboot my system" was pretty hot. 

Although I wonder if it was intended to be. They sometimes have the opposite problem to Lauriver stank face so in S1 I wonder if the stuff was intentional.

[BkWurm1]

Just now, statsgirl said:

I agree that she made him happy in s1. But I don't think he started thinking of her in sexual terms unlike that hot, sweaty, Tawzan swing in 2x01.

No, I agree.  I don't think he really considered her sexually in season one.  The gold dress moment was IMO a moment where BAM! he was caught off guard and he was confronted with the fact that she was a sexually desirable woman, but I think he also then pushed that thought out of his mind.  

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I thought that "You're not the only one who can reboot my system" was pretty hot. 

Although I wonder if it was intended to be. They sometimes have the opposite problem to Lauriver stank face so in S1 I wonder if the stuff was intentional.

Well, MOSTLY didn't think of her in sexual terms.  Hahahahahaha

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I thought that "You're not the only one who can reboot my system" was pretty hot. 

Although I wonder if it was intended to be. They sometimes have the opposite problem to Lauriver stank face so in S1 I wonder if the stuff was intentional.

I think he was trying to physically intimidate her in that scene but again she was not having it.

He does not have hearteyes with any other woman in all five seasons (except Thea? remember that? so super weird) so I don't know because I can't imagine they had Olicity planned out in S1. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

I loved the  "You're not the only one who can reboot my system" because he was trying to physically intimidate her, being all big and mountainous in her space and she not only wasn't having any of it, she got all into his space back. And then she quit.

The line  "You're not the only one who can reboot my system" is all kinds of sexual (kudos, writer) but Oliver didn't mean it sexually and I think that's why it worked so well.  Early seasons Oliver and pre-island Oliver had a lot of lines and they were all awful. This time he wasn't even trying and hit Superhot on the attractiveness meter.

25 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Are there hearteyes in the QC CEO's office flashback scene?

Definitely hearteyes but they were put in there deliberately to keep the Olicity shippers from giving up in that horrible time.  Had we been able to see what a real scene like that would have been between them in s1, I don't think there would have been heart eyes.

ETA:

Quote

I don't know because I can't imagine they had Olicity planned out in S1. 

I think they knew they were going to go Olicity in the fall of 2012 but s1 was the season that Oliver was obsessed with Laurel and either shutting himself off from all love or getting back the life he would have had it the Gambit had not sunk which would have been with Laurel so he wasn't giving hearteyes to anyone but Thea.  Purely platonically, of course.

That's the problem with 5x09 trying to retcon hearteyes to Felicity.  It doesn't fit into the story they told in s1.

Edited May 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[LeighAn]

Marc and Wendy both said on seperate occasions that they considered Felicity as Olivers romantic love interest from 2x01 and starting building them up from then on. So it's likely they started thinking writing and testing her out as a potential love interest in season 1.

From what I've heard they knew they had a chemistry issue and problem with Laurel very early on in the game.

[leopardprint]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Definitely hearteyes but they were put in there deliberately to keep the Olicity shippers from giving up in that horrible time.  Had we been able to see what a real scene like that would have been between them in s1, I don't think there would have been heart eyes.

I mean the one from S3 (?) with the serial killer picture and he's hiding behind a screen. 

I need a final verdict on the hearteyes, people! 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I mean the one from S3 (?) with the serial killer picture and he's hiding behind a screen. 

I need a final verdict on the hearteyes, people! 

He absolutely had charmed fascinated heart eyes for her!

Youre talking about 3x14 right? When he watched her without her knowing. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

That's the problem with 5x09 trying to retcon hearteyes to Felicity.  It doesn't fit into the story they told in s1.

It works for me as Oliver REMEMBERING the moment and us seeing it now through the veil of his subsequent feelings.  It's something that set that flashback apart from what we'd been getting for years, that and the fact that Felicity was also having the same memory around the same time.

 It works for me as a memory that Oliver tampered with, making it more than it was.  (Though the fact that Felicity also remembered when it happened says SOMETHING was going on, even if it was another of those fleeting sparks, quickly repressed)  

8 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I mean the one from S3 (?) with the serial killer picture and he's hiding behind a screen. 

I need a final verdict on the hearteyes, people! 

Amused and charmed when not much in his life could make him smile.   I think the verdict all depends on your criteria for hearteyes.  

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Youre talking about 3x14 right? When he watched her without her knowing. 

Yes, exactly! 

I have a very loose criteria for hearteyes, LOL. I could be convinced of it pretty much anytime they look at each other. 

[statsgirl]

Okay, I can see 5x09 as hearteyes when it's filtered through Oliver's memory.  Memory is a very fluid and unreliable thing.

The flashback in 3x14 I saw as amused and maybe a little bit intrigued.  Not hearteyes -- he hadn't even met her yet or seen her face to face. If you can get hearteyes by listening to a stranger babble, I don't think they are worth very much.

In an interview (I think in TV Line) in the back end of s1 when people were asking why Oliver didn't ask Felicity out instead of still trying to get back with Laurel when she was in a relationship with Tommy, MG said that they had to wrap up Oliver/Laurel before they could explore Oliver/Felicity.  So they were plotting Olicity in s1 even if it wasn't on the show yet.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

Marc and Wendy both said on seperate occasions that they considered Felicity as Olivers romantic love interest from 2x01 and starting building them up from then on. So it's likely they started thinking writing and testing her out as a potential love interest in season 1.

In retrospect, it seems like the show began moving toward Olicity after the S1 mid-season finale. Oliver kept returning to Felicity for help, despite the danger his weird requests could lead her to put 2+2 together and come up with The Hood. Then you have the "Can I trust you" scene by 1x12. The scene was shot as romantic — rain in the background, soft light, talk of trust.

2 eps later, Oliver showed up in the back of Felicity's car bleeding and sharing his secret with her. The reveal of the hero's identity is usually associated with the LI and Arrow had Felicity learn way before Laurel did. 

I think there's a post somewhere in this forum that spells out the "course correct" in terms of Oliver's LI more clearly. Possibly by @quarks? 

Edited May 27, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
Added photo

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I saw hearteyes from Oliver in s1 & s2 and heart smiles & heart hands

Oh, and yes, this is from the "You're remarkable" scene but this specific exchange? This is where Oliver tells Felicity that his buddy Steve is into archery and Felicity says something about not understanding how archery could be so popular. "Looks utterly ridiculous to me." And Oliver kinda agrees but you can tell he's a little ticked that she's not impressed with archery, LOL!

[leopardprint]

Felicity just not having it with Oliver is my true OTP. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Hiveminder]

I don't think there were any real heart eyes until season three. In season one I think he saw her as just a friend. I think he liked her and being around her, but not in a romantic way at that point. I'm sure if someone asked him if Felicity was attractive he would have said yes, but it probably wasn't at the forefront expect for when she wore that gold dress. 

In season two I saw him realizing that yes, he was very attracted to Felicity, and then that he didn't like when she paid attention to other men. Then he realized that he missed her when she wasn't there, and so on with his feelings growing over the season. Then in season three he fell more in love with her, and in season four even more. 

That's one of my favorite things about Olicity. It wasn't two attractive strangers meet and immediately fall into love at first sight. It grew over time and was based on them learning about each other and realizing that they loved the person each other was. It feels more satisfying and rich to me. 

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

In retrospect, it seems like the show began moving toward Olicity after the mid-season finale. Oliver kept returning to Felicity for help, despite the danger his weird requests could lead her to put 2+2 together and come up with The Hood. Then you have the "Can I trust you seen by 1x12." The scene was shot as romantic — rain in the background, soft light, talk of trust. 2 eps later, Oliver showed up in the back of Felicity's car bleeding and sharing his secret with her. The reveal of the hero's identity is usually associated with the LI and Arrow had Felicity learn way before Laurel did. 

I think there's a post somewhere in this forum that spells out the "course correct" in terms of Oliver's LI more clearly. Possibly by @quarks? 

I binged watched Arrow season 1 and I know that after watching I was convinced Felicity was going to end up being his love interest. In fact I thought she was intentional, and it wasn't until I joined the fandom later that I found out that she was only suppose to be a one off role. So to me I think the show was successful in setting up Felicity/Olicity in season so I agree.

Oliver had more emotional beats with Felicity then he did any other romantic pairing in season one and their relationship began with various boy meets girl meet cutes that I'm convinced they were intentionally exploring Olicity as a possible romantic combo by testing out their chemistry in season 1 and then committed to going there by season 2 after they got the veiwer reactions.

Especially given they'd written through to 1x13 before the show had even premiered from memory.

[Mellowyellow]

314 he looked damn smitten in that Flashback. Heart eyes and amusement imo. Considering how crazy smitten he was in season 3 I'm going to go with him tampering with the memory to reflect on his current smitten state. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oh, and yes, this is from the "You're remarkable" scene but this specific exchange? This is where Oliver tells Felicity that his buddy Steve is into archery and Felicity says something about not understanding how archery could be so popular. "Looks utterly ridiculous to me." And Oliver kinda agrees but you can tell he's a little ticked that she's not impressed with archery, LOL!

Be that as it may, he's heart eyeing at her IMO :)

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I don't think there were any real heart eyes until season three. In season one I think he saw her as just a friend. I think he liked her and being around her, but not in a romantic way at that point. I'm sure if someone asked him if Felicity was attractive he would have said yes, but it probably wasn't at the forefront expect for when she wore that gold dress. 

In season two I saw him realizing that yes, he was very attracted to Felicity, and then that he didn't like when she paid attention to other men. Then he realized that he missed her when she wasn't there, and so on with his feelings growing over the season. Then in season three he fell more in love with her, and in season four even more. 

That's one of my favorite things about Olicity. It wasn't two attractive strangers meet and immediately fall into love at first sight. It grew over time and was based on them learning about each other and realizing that they loved the person each other was. It feels more satisfying and rich to me. 

I don't completely reject this read of the relationship. But I think in terms of writers intentions I think even though it wasnt overt that the writers were willing to course correct to Olicity by mid late season 1 even if they still were writing Oliver and Felicity in the friend zone. They had intentionally written an attraction between the two even if it wasn't overtly sexual. They had a connection he didn't have with the Laurels or the Helenas or the Mckennas. 

So I guess what I'm saying is based on what the writers said the whole friends to lovers thing was probably intentionally written to develop from season one onwards and not they were written to just be friends and then the writers decided to switch up because of fan popularity or what not. 

[statsgirl]

I remember a number of conversations back then from various people analyzing things.  I think the consensus  was that the EPs realized from the pilot that Oliver/Laurel wasn't going to work so they began looking around at various female characters to see who they could swerve to (Helena, McKenna) and lucked out with Felicity when they weren't even expecting it.  But they had to play out Laurel because that is who they had set up in the pilot as Oliver's OTP and they couldn't replace her so fast so Oliver and Felicity became good and trusted friends.

Given how these writers do romance, the fact that they had to do Olicity as friends for the first season probably saved the relationship.

Edited May 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Be that as it may, he's heart eyeing at her IMO :)

Just having an excuse to talk to her lightened him up?

I tend to see that scene as Oliver going in there with his charming Playboy persona but at the same time still enjoying every moment and knowing he would.  So playing a part that he doesn't have to work at to play initially and then by the end, she once again impressed him with her abilities so it was more than just amusement.      

[LeighAn]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Just having an excuse to talk to her lightened him up?

I tend to see that scene as Oliver going in there with his charming Playboy persona but at the same time still enjoying every moment and knowing he would.  So playing a part that he doesn't have to work at to play initially and then by the end, she once again impressed him with her abilities so it was more than just amusement.      

Same.

He enjoyed seeing her and their little game of I know but I'll pretend that I don't know was fun for him at a time when all his other relationships were fraught with tension and expectations and being pushed into revealing or owning up to things he didn't want to. Felicity was some one he could use to serve his mission but that he also he had fun with and had no preconceived notions of who he should be. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The EPs, writers got negative reactions to L/O since the pilot..and with since the pilot I mean when they tested the pilot, so before it even aired. I think in season 1 they were trying different options for Oliver as his main LI and boy, they were lucky EBR showed up for that role. (And she was lucky as well since it became a major role for her).

I think in season 2 they were more deliberately writing for O/F while in season 1 it was mostly the actors that gave their scenes that tone but still some things were a happy coincidence..like when Dig and Oliver talk in BBG and he tells him about finding a woman that is already the right fit and there's a cut to Felicity.

I consider the hearteyes a thing since the Russia episode which is also the episode SA or MG, I don't remember, said Oliver realized his feelings for her. My favorite hearteyes scene is still the beach scene in 223 where he looks at her like she hung the moon and it's so precious.

[LeighAn]

If you go on you tube and search season 1 deleted scenes there were about 5 I think of Oliver/Laurel scenes that were relationship shipper intended type scenes. That tells me all I need to know about how the Eps felt about the chemistry or the confidence in that pairing TBH.

Edited May 27, 2017 by LeighAn

[BkWurm1]

Quote

but still some things were a happy coincidence..like when Dig and Oliver talk in BBG and he tells him about finding a woman that is already the right fit and there's a cut to Felicity.

Lol, that's one of the cuts that I'm sure WAS deliberate. I think they intended it to be just a subtle almost subliminal message or even just a tease since they were still dealing with Laurel and Oliver, but it was too similar to other cuts they'd done earlier in the season that cut to Laurel in a (semi) favorable way.  The editors HAD to know what they were doing.   

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Lily-n11]

Reading your posts reminds me of SA saying “You never know when you’re going to get on-screen with somebody and something is going to click but it did and we’re glad it did.” in this interview at PCA in early 2014.

Why would they be glad the Olicity chemistry made them change their plan for the show? Why would they be glad if they were not looking for something to change it? For me that question was answered in a tumblr post from more than 2 years ago. I go back to read it every now and then. I find it a plausible summary of how it could have happened. (Sadly there are no links to the mentioned early reactions to the show and lack of chemistry between O/L. I would be interested in reading some of them.)

Regarding when the prods decided Olicity was endgame.

Quote

I’m fairly certain they were a contingency plan (one of several) before Emily was even cast.

Hear me out.

Sure, the extremely negative media and focus group response to the anti-chemistry and completely unsuitability of the Lauriver relationship didn’t start until media and focus groups saw the pilot in the late spring 2012 timeframe. But the pilot filmed a few months before that, and the prods had plans laid out in case they got picked up.

If you look back at early media articles and early discussion boards and forums, during the pilot and the second ep…they reflected those early responses. Critics and audiences alike could not stomach this. It’s probably the strongest negative reaction I have ever seen to a main couple on a show. But usually, an important and seemingly unalterable main couple like this would’ve been carefully cast to ensure they were suitable, and here that was not done, for some mysterious reason. Even though it was more important here than it would be on most shows, since this girl is supposed to be The One who had gotten Oliver through his dark times, and interest in their relationship was supposed to be strong enough to last the entire run of the show…and every assumption would’ve been that there is no way out of that relationship. It is difficult to believe that the prods willingly chose not to chem test their lead with his future LI.

But here is my question: if media and early focus groups, critics writing initial responses to the first eps, and audiences everywhere could tell that Lauriver could not possibly sustain this show…why couldn’t the producers? Never mind questions about what *season* they changed their minds. How about, while they were filming the pilot? While they were watching the dailies? How could everyone else know, but the people whose jobs were on the line and who have years of experience here miss this important information? How could Berlanti (of “Hey let’s scrap Dawson and Joey and go with Pacey and Joey” fame), Guggenheim, Kreisberg, Pedowitz, Roth…how could they be so blind? Why did it take the media and the viewers to point out to them that they had a disaster on their hands, and that Oliver simply had to have a different love interest?

The answer: They could. They knew. They knew before anyone else. That’s why so many contingency LIs were written and cast. Because they knew they had a problem…they just weren’t quite sure what the solution was, but the ball was rolling and they didn’t have the time and money to reshoot the pilot, plus CW wasn’t ready to blame KC yet. But they also didn’t have the time to launch a really careful rework and chem test numerous actresses with Stephen to try to find the right one.

Isn’t it funny how focus group testing of the pilot just *happened* to complain that Oliver’s tech skills were too much? I mean, amongst all the other skills he had that were planted there deliberately for the audience to question and which indicated he was lying about his missing years, aren’t we fortunate it wasn’t speaking Russian they questioned? If so, would we have had a linguist instead of a tech genius? How dumb is that? The entire pilot BEGS the audience to ask themselves why the things Oliver can do don’t make sense for a guy stranded alone on an island for five years. But it’s this…computer skills…that is the real absurdity? Come. On.

And isn’t it lucky for the prods that without even TRYING, they cast a young woman who as it turns out can play the type (warm, kind, the sort who actually would sustain a man during five years in hell) Oliver’s LI was supposed to be? And wow, without even INTENDING to they totally wrote one of the five greatest romantic comedy meet-cute scenes in tv history for this “one off” character who happened to get cast with a funny, dazzling actress of great warmth and ridiculous beauty? And OMG! The third ep! Their FIRST TRY, they hit on EBR!

Wow, so many accidents! So much good fortune!!!

Yeah, exactly. Bull. Shit.

Bullshit they only created Felicity because focus groups criticized the tech gap. Bullshit their casting notice and discussions with Rappaport didn’t indicate potential LI for Oliver. Bullshit Stephen didn’t know he was working with a potential LI. And bullshit that they didn’t know EXACTLY what they had with them the moment they saw it.

The three EPs are the writers of 103. They wrote that meet-cute as a meet-cute. They picked Emily from a tape as the best potential LOVE INTEREST.

Am I saying they had already made their choice? No. Helena and McKenna were both in the works, also contingencies. But absolutely by the time they put together 108, they knew where they were going. 103 aired 24 October. Pre-prod on Vertigo began 5 November. 103 airing meant critics and audiences confirmed for them what they already knew. It gave them the final word they needed to make that very meaningful cut from Diggle’s “right fit” speech to Felicity.

People, THEY COULD NOT DO WITHOUT A LOVE INTEREST FOR OLIVER. They couldn’t waste time. Their entire series arc for him, unusually enough, required this LI in place from the get-go. They were not making a show about a guy figuring out who he really loves. They were making a show about a guy who KNOWS who he loves, but just has to allow himself to come back to life. How could they do that if they didn’t have that woman in place VERY early? They intended her to have been in place five years before the show began! They simply could not let Oliver go without his LI being established before the end of the first season, which meant she had to come in early and the foundation had to be strong.

So this situation - this need for a LI for him - was fucking *dire*.

And from that point forward, from 108 forward, she got all the romantic beats. She got all the epic beats. Lauriver sex was moved up from at the *earliest* late season three (in case you haven’t noticed, the prods want to make us waaaaaaaaait for the sex) to the end of season one, so nobody would be sitting around wondering if maybe Oliver was going back to her, which would’ve been an eternal question if they hadn’t gone ahead and had the sex scene happen. FWIW, Sariver happened to take that question off the table, too.

So in conclusion, TPTB knew from the shooting of the pilot they had a problem, and as soon as they went into production, they set about ensuring they could solve it. There was very little luck here. This was design.

But of course they cannot say that, because they cannot be unkind to the employee who lost out. So they have to pretend, nonsensically, that the meet-cute and the casting is an accident, that they never intended any of this to happen, etc. We know the obvious truth, though.

P.S. Did one of you write this?

Edited May 27, 2017 by Lily-n11

[LeighAn]

I wish I wrote that @Lily-n11 haha. I've actually never read that before, thanks for sharing.

[Hiveminder]

I've never read that before, but it makes a lot of sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm sorry but, they didn't cast EBR with the specific intent of being a LI.

Yes the EPs knew LL/KC/Lauiver was a problem from the pilot. If you believe Canadagraphs they tried to get rid of KC after they filmed the pilot, either by recast or writing the character out but, someone at the Network (WB, CBS) protected her.

However, they did not cast Felicity/EBR as the answer to all their problems. They were looking for a replacement LI and Helena and McKenna were both tested as LL replacements but, EBR/Felicity was a happy accident.

There was no screen tests, no Chem tests, no big time casting agent looking for The One. They wrote a character that filmed for 1 day and a total of 2 scenes, simply to answer the how can Oliver be so good with computers question? They wrote a character that was more in line with their combined writing style (read MG's all female X-Men run).

Was there potential for the character to come back? Absolutely, EBR said it was a possibly recurring role, which she herself said doesn't usually pan out. 

Felicity, Olicity and EBR were happy accidents, they were once in a life time opportunities that changed the show/story for the better.  The idea that they specifically picked her to be Oliver's replacement LI does a (IMO) disservice to EBR and the EBR/SA chemistry which was a gift from the gods (as far as Hollywood is concerned).

Edited May 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

The scene wasn't written as a meet-cute. What made it one was EBR and SAs natural chemistry and her playing against the script. 

[tv echo]

From 3x14...

   

[Mellowyellow]

Haha I see way too much fondness on his face for some random girl talking to herself. Boy looks smitten to me! Not 520 salmon ladder flashback "Omg you are my sunshine I will worship you" smitten but pretty damn smitten nevertheless. 

He has totally altered that s3 flashback in his head! 

[tv echo]

Here's the earliest media article that I have in my personal archive that brings up the possibility of romance between Oliver & Felicity, as well as the earliest mention of "Olicity" by SA and the earliest O/F romance-related comments by MG and EBR that I have (if anyone has earlier ones, please post the links for me, thx!)...

Is Romance In The Cards For ‘Arrow’s’ Felicity And Oliver?
Danielle Turchiano  February 13, 2013 
http://www.celebuzz.com/2013-02-13/is-romance-in-the-cards-for-arrows-felicity-and-oliver/

Quote

... Whether or not Oliver and Felicity’s relationship would become anything more than platonic, though, was something still to be determined.

“For me, when we’re working in the foundry and on different scenes with Oliver, it seems more friendship-based, and it’s always more ‘Trust me, trust me.’ There’s some sort of family camaraderie, and there’s also a spark. They do have chemistry. Whether it’s romantic chemistry or friendship chemistry, that’s up for debate,” Rickards said.

SA first tweeted "Olicity" on Feb. 14, 2013:

Quote

Stephen Amell @amellywood
Hey Guys? There's only one L in #Olicity --
9:52 AM - 14 Feb 13

http://smoakandarrow.tumblr.com/post/76562377960/jbdolicity-isnt-tomorrow-the-one-year'

Arrow’: ‘Olicity,’ Felicity’s First Solo Mission And More Intel From Emily Bett Rickards And Marc Guggenheim
Laura Prudom   April 24, 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/arrow-olicity-felicity-oliver-emily-bett-rickards_n_3144718.html

Quote

The Huffington Post recently caught up with Rickards and executive producer Marc Guggenheim to preview what’s ahead in the final four episodes of Season 1 and discuss the show’s compelling relationships, including the unexpected popularity of what fans have termed “Olicity,” the chemistry between troubled vigilante Oliver and tech-guru Felicity — despite Oliver already being caught up in a potent love triangle with his ex-girlfriend Laurel (Katie Cassidy) and best friend Tommy (Colin Donnell). Superheroes really are chick magnets.
*  *  *
And while Laurel is never far from Oliver’s mind, it’s obvious that the writers are also paying attention to the sudden popularity of the “Olicity” dynamic. Guggenheim was recently teasing fans on Twitter with Oliver and Felicity quotes from upcoming episodes, and the executive producer admitted, “That’s just been so much fun to do ... I had no idea it would be engendering such a response.”
*  *  *
Still, the EP added, “the final four episodes really are about this love triangle of Oliver, Laurel and Tommy. That’s the love triangle that we began the series with so we felt it appropriate to finish the season with a focus on it. That love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20. That kicks us off for the remaining three episodes of the season after that. The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity. But I love the fact that people are shipping them. It really is exciting. There’s nothing but love for Felicity among all the people involved in the show. So, stay tuned. But in the meantime, I gained a lot of satisfaction by teasing people.”
*  *  *
People have really embraced Felicity so passionately, both in terms of her character and her chemistry with Oliver. What’s your reaction been to that, being at the center of it all?
[Emily Bett Rickards:] It’s so interesting to me because before Felicity, I haven’t been able to explore a character on TV as well as this, and seeing that evolve and watching the fans’ reaction, watching the show, knowing what we felt in the scene, knowing what we felt reading it, is all strange along the same lines. It’s really interesting to see what people can pick up on. Because as Felicity, my first scene I ever did — that I thought was going to be the only scene I was going to do with Oliver — obviously I was thinking, “OK, Felicity thinks he’s hot.” He walks in there and he’s got that jaw and I’m sure he’s got abs, and I’m in glasses and a really unflattering pink-colored shirt — which is flattering for Felicity. [Laughs.] I’m glad they want that to happen, because it’s the girl behind glasses trying to win the superhero, and that’s just sort of sweet. It would be nice for it to happen, but it’s also nice having the tension, because everyone loves the tension, the tightrope.

Edited May 27, 2017 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

Going back to the original topic of when the heart eyes started shining, I first noticed them in the finale of Season 2. Before that, I could see hints of feelings but IMO Stephen almost always played it close to the vest. No full-on heart eyes. First heart eyes sighting for me was the mansion scene when Oliver first said "I love you." For a very brief time his face was so open, eyes full of hearts even though it was tinged by sadness and nervousness. And then the beach scene, which was just "I adore you, I love you, I desire you" all wrapped up together. 

I went back to read some of the firsts posts on this thread and the discussions are almost similar in that what the interviews are saying are so different from the text of the script and staging, LOL! 

Edited May 27, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

10 hours ago, Chaser said:

The scene wasn't written as a meet-cute. What made it one was EBR and SAs natural chemistry and her playing against the script. 

That's what kills me.  EBR was barely twenty and she had the instincts and self-confidence to play against the script because she thought it would make the scene better.  If she had played it as written, we might never have had Olicity or at least Olicity in this form.

9 hours ago, tv echo said:

Arrow’: ‘Olicity,’ Felicity’s First Solo Mission And More Intel From Emily Bett Rickards And Marc Guggenheim

 

Laura Prudom   April 24, 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/arrow-olicity-felicity-oliver-emily-bett-rickards_n_3144718.html

Still, the EP added, “the final four episodes really are about this love triangle of Oliver, Laurel and Tommy. That’s the love triangle that we began the series with so we felt it appropriate to finish the season with a focus on it. That love triangle really starts to come to a boil with Wednesday’s episode, Episode 20. That kicks us off for the remaining three episodes of the season after that. The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity. But I love the fact that people are shipping them. It really is exciting. There’s nothing but love for Felicity among all the people involved in the show. So, stay tuned. But in the meantime, I gained a lot of satisfaction by teasing people.”

Thanks.  That's the interview I was thinking of.

Truer words are seldom spoken than that last sentence.

Edited May 28, 2017 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lol, that's one of the cuts that I'm sure WAS deliberate. I think they intended it to be just a subtle almost subliminal message or even just a tease since they were still dealing with Laurel and Oliver, but it was too similar to other cuts they'd done earlier in the season that cut to Laurel in a (semi) favorable way.  The editors HAD to know what they were doing.   

I think it was a coincidence instead because it's one of the first episodes..but it's funny/cute to look at it after all that happened..it's like the director told them "there, here's your endgame" LOL.

[statsgirl]

I disagree, it's too obvious to be a coincidence.  As evidence

11 hours ago, Lily-n11 said:

The three EPs are the writers of 103. They wrote that meet-cute as a meet-cute. They picked Emily from a tape as the best potential LOVE INTEREST.

Am I saying they had already made their choice? No. Helena and McKenna were both in the works, also contingencies. But absolutely by the time they put together 108, they knew where they were going. 103 aired 24 October. Pre-prod on Vertigo began 5 November. 103 airing meant critics and audiences confirmed for them what they already knew. It gave them the final word they needed to make that very meaningful cut from Diggle’s “right fit” speech to Felicity.

From the same blog post

11 hours ago, Lily-n11 said:

But usually, an important and seemingly unalterable main couple like this would’ve been carefully cast to ensure they were suitable, and here that was not done, for some mysterious reason. Even though it was more important here than it would be on most shows, since this girl is supposed to be The One who had gotten Oliver through his dark times, and interest in their relationship was supposed to be strong enough to last the entire run of the show…and every assumption would’ve been that there is no way out of that relationship. It is difficult to believe that the prods willingly chose not to chem test their lead with his future LI.

I wonder if it was because the studio was so adamant about KC playing Laurel.  Maybe they were afraid that if the chem test was bad, they would have to recast the role of Oliver and they wanted SA very much.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm sorry but, they didn't cast EBR with the specific intent of being a LI.

Yes the EPs knew LL/KC/Lauiver was a problem from the pilot. If you believe Canadagraphs they tried to get rid of KC after they filmed the pilot, either by recast or writing the character out but, someone at the Network (WB, CBS) protected her.

However, they did not cast Felicity/EBR as the answer to all their problems. They were looking for a replacement LI and Helena and McKenna were both tested as LL replacements but, EBR/Felicity was a happy accident.

There was no screen tests, no Chem tests, no big time casting agent looking for The One. They wrote a character that filmed for 1 day and a total of 2 scenes, simply to answer the how can Oliver be so good with computers question? They wrote a character that was more in line with their combined writing style (read MG's all female X-Men run).

Was there potential for the character to come back? Absolutely, EBR said it was a possibly recurring role, which she herself said doesn't usually pan out. 

Felicity, Olicity and EBR were happy accidents, they were once in a life time opportunities that changed the show/story for the better.  The idea that they specifically picked her to be Oliver's replacement LI does a (IMO) disservice to EBR and the EBR/SA chemistry which was a gift from the gods (as far as Hollywood is concerned).

I do think it was a happy accident but I also tend to think it was one that they saw the possible potential for right away.  I mean, I know I saw it right away, how could they not?  I don't think they decided on her right away, but I think they perked up and wondered if this was something they could repeat. 

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think it was a coincidence instead because it's one of the first episodes..but it's funny/cute to look at it after all that happened..it's like the director told them "there, here's your endgame" LOL.

If that particular edit was in 103, then yeah, the most it could be was someone playing around in editing as a lark and no real thought behind it or as you said, pure luck, but I was thinking it happened the second or third episode we saw Felicity?  Again, I don't think anyone decided already they were endgame, but the cut felt very deliberate like an option was being set up.  

Mckenna, once they went on their first date, in contrast felt like they immediately set up why it was not a long term option.  When she demanded answers, all the warning flags went up.   They walked back the "misunderstanding" but if felt like it was always there as proof they would never really be on the same page.    But Felicity despite being the one encouraging both Oliver and Diggle to go after the women they were interested in, kept getting positioned closer to Oliver in terms of trust and understanding and compromise.   It's been a long time but I swear after the Mckenna date there was some exchange between Felicity and Oliver where she could have pressed for details like McKenna did and didn't and it seemed a marked contrast in sensitivity.  

When Helena was on the scene, even though they introduced her in a positive way with both she and Oliver fighting together, the crazy jealousy they gave her halfway through the episode seemed to right there and then eliminate her as a good fit for a future LI.  So I can see how someone could look at the writing for the first season and think, "Olicity had to be deliberate."  

I wonder if maybe there was some unintended yet intended writing that kept making Olicity shine a little brighter.  Maybe just little things here and there that the different writers, directors and editors kept adding since Felicity and Olicity just called to be written that way whether they were supposed to be or not, lol.  

Clearly by the back half of the season it was very deliberate, the teases.  I wonder at what point in the script writing they were at when 103 was filmed and they could see the dailies.   

[Balaclava]

17 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

In retrospect, it seems like the show began moving toward Olicity after the S1 mid-season finale. Oliver kept returning to Felicity for help, despite the danger his weird requests could lead her to put 2+2 together and come up with The Hood. Then you have the "Can I trust you" scene by 1x12. The scene was shot as romantic — rain in the background, soft light, talk of trust.

2 eps later, Oliver showed up in the back of Felicity's car bleeding and sharing his secret with her. The reveal of the hero's identity is usually associated with the LI and Arrow had Felicity learn way before Laurel did. 

I think there's a post somewhere in this forum that spells out the "course correct" in terms of Oliver's LI more clearly. Possibly by @quarks? 

Funny thing you mention this specific scene. I remember seeing on tumblr, back in S2 or 3, a meta on the Olicity theme written by one girl that if i recall correctly is a musician and in said meta she said 1x12 was the first scene their theme was played, some sort of variation on the 2 initial notes but it was there. I can't be 100% sure how accurate that info is but it's an interesting tibit to add to the discussion since the Olicity theme plays such an important role in their scenes.

Coincidence or not the 1x12 "can i trust you" scene made me an Olicity shipper :)

[tv echo]

^^^ I think Austencello might be the fan you're thinking of. I have the links to her 509 and 520 musical analyses, but I don't have the link to the one you're talking about (I haven't had time yet to read her other musical analyses of Arrow episodes)...

What We Leave Behind - Arrow Music Notes 5x09
http://austencello.tumblr.com/post/154318061629/what-we-leave-behind-arrow-music-notes-5x09 

Underneath - Arrow Music Notes 5x20
https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/160420716869/underneath-arrow-music-notes-5x20

Edited May 28, 2017 by tv echo

[Balaclava]

I know who Austencello is but the meta i mentioned isn't hers, this was way before i even came across Austencello on tumblr and twitter 

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

I do think it was a happy accident but I also tend to think it was one that they saw the possible potential for right away.  I mean, I know I saw it right away, how could they not?  I don't think they decided on her right away, but I think they perked up and wondered if this was something they could repeat. 

I think they realized the potential early on and they seemed to test it out starting with the "Can I trust you?" Scene.

However, they still continued to play out their other potential LI. I think early on they were set on a physical LI to replace BC, so Helena/Huntress or McKenna/Cop (Manhunter?). However, the SA/EBR chemistry couldn't be denied. So they continued to test out different LIs while keeping Olicity on simmer.

I think they committed to Olicity probably around the time they committed to killing Tommy (ending the LI and Tommy antagonist storyline they had originally planned), IIRC around February 2013.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

Just saw the scene where she tells him she dyes her hair blonde and "I keep your secrets."

He has this really fond smile on his face as he's looking at her. So cute! It is 1.20 though so probably they were setting it up then. I may even count those has half heart eyes.

@tv echo bless you for being able to pull gifs and articles out on demand for us! You're so awesome! 

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Just saw the scene where she tells him she dyes her hair blonde and "I keep your secrets."

That was actually the first Olicity scene I ever saw. I had stopped watching after Helena killed Tahmoh Penikett's character.  However, I let the show build up on my DVR.  One day I turned on The CW early, nothing else to watch while waiting for SPN and, I managed to catch this scene. I was hooked, went back to the TWOP board, started reading the forum watched the old episodes sitting on my DVR, etc.