Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[looptab]

 But I also can't sit through another angsty will he ever learn arc? 

Well, it seems like that's exactly what we're getting.

[AyChihuahua]

But how does this work in practice within the narrative? Felicity realizes Oliver will never stop lying? And then she forgives him for being a serial liar? And then the next time he lies she just shrugs it off? This doesn't make any sense in a hero's journey.

eta: Now that I think about it, Felicity learning to accept that Oliver will always lie and keep secrets from her basically turns Felicity/Oliver into pre-island Laurel/Oliver. Achievement unlocked?

How convenient for Oliver. He can just go toddling on being a human piece of crap, and still get the girl! Ollie wins!

[dtissagirl]

I'm also very very uncomfortable with this notion of the woman carrying the burden of ~understanding the tortured manchild. And if she doesn't accept ALL of his flaws, then she is the problematic one.

[kismet]

I don't think I agree with all of this, and partly it's because I feel like all I can do is compare Oliver's treatment to the treatment of other characters on the show (or even in the Flarrow universe) versus what might be normal in the real world. You might not judge on that metric, which I get. But IMO, Oliver has been held more accountable and faced more real, tangible consequences for his actions (especially his secrets/lies) than any other character in the Flarrow world. He also ends up being the one who pays for other people's mistakes (especially Thea's and Laurel's in S3)

 

Tommy froze him out for the latter half of S1 after learning his secret. His lies about (and to) Slade got his sister kidnapped and arguably his mother killed, leading him to try to offer his own life. Quentin actively hated him for, what, nine months or so, trying to ruin his life and get him sent to prison/his death after learning he kept Sara's death a secret. He had to drop the Arrow identity and Roy had to leave town forever (that's a bigger consequence for Roy of course, same with Moira's death, but it's still a consequence, and we still see Oliver feeling active guilt/grief over these things and trying to right them, especially when compared to how the show treats other characters when similar things are their fault) (cough, Laurel, cough).

 

And it did take Diggle about six months to forgive Oliver for the LoA stuff. (In general: I don't think the show viewed Oliver letting the team think they were going to die in NP as negatively as viewers did, so yeah, none of the characters really got upset with him about that. I think the show felt like it was Oliver's only avenue to save their lives (and to ultimately save SC), and that once the team realized that, they would get it. But just like with the BMD, it didn't work for many viewers because it felt like there was a third option, which was to just have Oliver give some signal to one of the team.) As @dtissagirl mentioned above, the result of the BMD is the loss of his mayoral campaign, his engagement/relationship, and his son. Had he made a better choice in December, he may not have lost any of those things. Maybe they'll make that explicit in the next few episodes--we'll see.

 

But anyway. I do agree that Oliver is ultimately forgiven for his lies by his loved ones (as is every character on the show/in the greater universe), but I guess I don't think that means that he hasn't learned anything and never will. It gets at a fundamental question for me, which is: what would "lasting effects" entail on a TV show? How lasting? What kind of effects? The show has to tell an entertaining story, and Oliver's role at the center of the story makes it difficult to keep him separated from other main characters for long, or for him to be the one who pays physically/with his life. They spent most of S3 having him at odds with Felicity and it was a slog to get through. I've never been so relieved to have something quickly resolved as I was when he and Dig made up in 403. Yep, most of the freeze-out occurred off-screen, and that was just fine with me. The same will be true, for me, when half of the O/F breakup will have taken place off-screen during this hiatus (I'm guessing). I don't want to see them being cold and distant for another season. So to me, from a narrative perspective and an entertaining television perspective, I don't care to see Oliver "punished" for his mistakes by those closest to him for longer than a short arc of episodes, because selfishly, those relationships and interactions are the reason I watch the show. :) 

 

My answer to "how is Oliver ever going to learn?" is that it's really MG who has to learn. They need to figure out how to create plot from things other than Oliver keeping secrets, after this season. This secret was already OOC for S4 Oliver, IMO, but I am willing to see it as a regression and a last gasp of old Oliver peeking through, but after this...I would find it very difficult to understand or accept another story along these lines.

I agree with so much of this post, especially the last paragraph. I think OQ does pay for his lies and missteps. He also is forgiven a lot, but that is not uncommon in families or relationships based on love.

I think the biggest problem is the characters' relationships is based on mutual respect and love strengthened by four years together. The problem is the writers cash that in for cheaply written & designed plot extraganzas time and time again. So where as an audience member want them to prioritize and maintain the integrity of the characters/relationships; they seemly overly obessesed at achieving their plot goals at all costs - which is why there are so many OOC or quasi-ooc moments in s3 and now s4b.

I have very little faith in the writers that they thought about the multidimensional & emotional aspects of the BMD on either OQs characterizations or O/F relationship. They just saw drama + secret reveal = breakup for sweeps; with the bonus of being a surmountable indiscretion to achieve a reunion for finale. Nothing about how they wrote this BMD arc indicates they thought of it as anything beyond a plot device.

I would love for it to be part of the lynchpin of OQs emotional growth, learning to trust and developing deeper partnerships. Because by s4, it is where he should be on his journey. But I also know this Arrow, and while they do prioritize characters & relationships more than other shows ~ at the end of the day feeding the PLOT Monster has and will always be more of the priority. So I guess I'm just left somewhere in between not wanting my characters compromised; but also not wanting to have to slog through angst on top of poorly written plot.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm also very very uncomfortable with this notion of the woman carrying the burden of ~understanding the tortured manchild. And if she doesn't accept ALL of his flaws, then she is the problematic one.

SERIOUSLY!

[kismet]

I'm also very very uncomfortable with this notion of the woman carrying the burden of ~understanding the tortured manchild. And if she doesn't accept ALL of his flaws, then she is the problematic one.

I never meant to imply FS is the problematic one. Or that she is the only one that has to change or accept. There is give & take in relationships.

But OQ will probably always have a tendency to want to withhold/lie. It's how he was raised, it is one of the only characteristics that is consistent pre & post island. If FS wants to be with him, she is going to have to accept that to a certain degree because people do not change. They can work on it and they can try, they can even improve - but at the end of they day that will always be part of who they are and how they operate.

Nobody is perfect and OQ is far from it. So sadly I think between it being part of OQs characterization to lie/withhold and the writers heavy reliance on secrets & lies. I'm not sure how O/F can move fwd as a couple without her accepting that risk that OQ might keep stuff from her. Sometimes people have to accept of modicum of that's not so great because the good outweighs the rest.

Honestly, I would love to see this result in OQ becoming a better partner and breaking some of his ingrained bad habits. But realistically I just don't foresee that being how they use this plotline.

[looptab]

I'm sorry, but the whole premise of this show is that people CAN change.

[dtissagirl]

If FS wants to be with him, she is going to have to accept that to a certain degree because people do not change. They can work on it and they can try, they can even improve - but at the end of they day that will always be part of who they are and how they operate.

I fundamentally disagree that Arrow is telling a story wherein people can't change. A hero's journey is propelled by change *by default*. Oliver has to change by design of the story he's trapped inside. If he cannot change, he fails the hero's journey.

[Morrigan2575]

One of the big themes of this season is "can people change".  We've had a No answer for the Villains, neither Malcolm nor Papa Smoak were able to change their ways.  I'm going to have to assume that the EPs don't actually want to associate OQ with the villains and want him to actually be a hero, therefore, unlike the villains OQ should be able to change his ways. 

[kismet]

People can change to a certain degree but somethings are always going to be part of fundamentally who they are. It's in the fabric of their personality.

As for the theme. I do think they will write OQ as be willing and perhaps able to change until s5 when plot demands that he act a certain way and chips away at his progress.

[AyChihuahua]

The problem, well one of the problems with the idea that Felicity should or will accept that Oliver's just going to lie to her about stuff she has the right to know at least once a season, is that we have been both shown and told, REPEATEDLY, that she will not do so. Honesty matters to her, being a true partner matters to her. We were told that in S3 over and over, too. This season, in the original timeline she found out he was lying...she dumped him. Months later she found out he was lying, she dumped him. So we're told and shown, heck even as far back as 2.13 when she chose NOT to lie to him about something huge that affects him, that she requires honesty and trust in a relationship, from both sides. She accepts a lot of his flaws, for example she was very forgiving when he wasn't really there for her in the hospital, she absolutely does give him time and space to process, she's shown over and over and over, ad infinitum, that she is his very best sounding board and advice-giver when he thinks about doing UNBELIEVABLY DUMB things. She accepts a LOT of his flaws...this is one she's very clearly, and repeatedly, made clear that she will NOT ACCEPT.

 

I would 1000x times prefer they stay split forever than that she compromise one of her biggest values going forward and twists herself into, basically, pre-island Laurel just so we can ooh and aww over the cute O/F scenes whenever he's not actively lying to her about whatever new BS. (Also, as I've made clear, I don't think that's going to be an issue, bc I think this is Lyin' Ollie's last hurrah.)

 

And it doesn't have to be anything like S3's angst fest. I personally think him reciting his vows will help a tiny bit, at least help him understand what she means to him, then I think by the end of Beacon of Hope he's going to start fighting for her/showing her he's really changed. Which is FANTASTIC, bc we have never ever seen that. She made it clear all through S3 that if he said the word she'd be with him. Then she got over the LOA/MM stuff ASAP and left town with him. She's always been there for him, he's totally taken her for granted, and this is going to be a great wakeup call. I can't wait to see it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

People can change to a certain degree but somethings are always going to be part of fundamentally who they are. It's in the fabric of their personality.

I don't even believe this IRL [i'm more of a firm believer in the social construction of identity], but even more so, whether people can change or not within the Arrow universe is a writer's choice, not a fact in any possible way.

[Ann Mack]

If you go back and read the interviews Emily gave prior to the episode airing. From those interviews one in specific she talks about how much "leeway" does Felicity give Oliver and will Felicity accept that Oliver might always keep things from her but she'll always know that he loves her. I think Emily REALLY does KNOW THIS SHOW. She is already bracing fans in case they do gloss over Oliver ways and have Felicity accepting that Oliver loves her, will continue to keep things from her, but he will always protect and love her.

 

I could be wrong but her interviews IMO were a good indicator of the show having Oliver "trying" to do the right thing but will struggle with it. Felicity understanding because their hearts are intertwined and she loves him as much as he loves her faults and everything included.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Ann Mack

[Carrie Ann]

Yep. Since Season 1, they've had Oliver on this arc:

 

 

And he's basically gotten 95% of the way there, bit by bit, by Season 4. All the important people in his life know he's the GA, he solicits and accepts other people's opinions and plans, he has a team, he's decided to embrace the idea that he can not just be with someone but be married to her.

 

But...then there's that 5%. And I too find the BMD contrived and frustrating, and I just don't really buy it, but ooookay, here we are. I have to see this as another step in his development arc, and for that reason, again, I am so grateful that 415 had Oliver exacerbating the problem by shutting Felicity out of his decision-making process regarding William. Because that's a slight tweak on his usual problems and it's bigger than one (really bad and dumb) lie. It goes directly back to "you gotta let someone in," with Felicity saying she doesn't think he knows how to do that to the extent she needs/deserves. That's much meatier and carries a lot more weight for me, and is a more interesting point of development for Oliver than the same old "secrets and lies are bad."

 

If the heroes on this show didn't change, hopefully for the better, I wouldn't be watching.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

Or, the amount of leeway she decides to give him on lying is none, and no she won't accept he'll always keep things from her, which is why, in the episode that aired after that interview, Felicity dumped him.

 

As a general thing, I'm finding the idea that she should just suck it up and accept his lying because he really super loves her quite gross. So what else should a woman just accept from a dude as long as he "really really loves her"? The occasional affair? A smack or two across the face? Stealing her money? Actually, it doesn't even have to be gendered...no one should feel that they have to accept being treated like shit in any particular area just bc the person "really really loves" them. Flip it around...if you really really super love someone, you shouldn't habitually treat them like crap, at all, on any topic.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[hogwash]

Oliver is an emotional idiot and his first instinct is to lie and withhold information. A character like that is in a serious relationship and finds out he has a secret kid. Anyone could see how Oliver could screw up this up. But they could barely articulate why he would keep the kid a secret from Felicity. After what happened with Malcolm, they literally stopped trying to pretend Oliver had a reason to keep it from her. Their relationship was solid and even an idiot like him would have immediately told her.

 

I'm just annoyed that they were so desperate for this damn breakup. It was so important that it was worth ignoring Thea's past characterization and storylines. Instead, Felicity literally gets up and walk away 3 sentences into the breakup. 0/10. No stars. 7 episodes in the making and that's the best they could do? A good breakup was the least they could do...

 

Anyway, I think it's a good thing they could barely explain why Oliver was still lying. He's not that person anymore. I'm sure they'll find something new (ugh). 

[dtissagirl]

You know, I hadn't thought of it that way, but the fact that it's such an artificially constructed lie/secret kinda shows that Oliver's new default is to NOT lie to Felicity. Lying to her is an aberration, really.

[tangerine95]

I don't think the point of all of this is for Oliver not to change. That doesn't fit with the whole hero journey at all. I can't really imagine all this being resolved in the way that allows him to keep lying when he feels he needs to and him not letting people in while Felicity desides to compromise so much of what she wants from a relationship. I don't think they ever wrote it like that, they always have Oliver learn, they just drag it out. Like last season they had him first believe he can just be the arrow and by the end go on the totally opposite direction by having him be just Oliver Queen and abandon being the arrow. That way they drag out that development to this season by having him learn to balance both now. They adresssed the trust issues thing in season 3 too but i think in order to drag it out as well they only did the team and arrow business side of it. They have him learn he has to trust the team, talk to them about his plans and let them make their own choices. This season they're doing the personal relationship trust issues with olicity. So I think like season 3 had Oliver become a better team player about arrow stuff, they'll also have him work on becoming a better partner in a relationship with Felicity. Imo this would have been much clearer if they didn't realize they made him look horrible in the process of making the mistake they needed so they overcorrected.

[tv echo]

Let's see...

 

In S2 Oliver set Felicity up as bait to be kidnapped and possibly killed by Slade without her prior knowledge and consent.

 

In S3 Oliver let Felicity believe that she was going to die from a bio virus in the Nanda Parbat prison (even though Malcolm knew the truth).

 

In S4 Oliver deceived Felicity about a huge thing in his life that would also affect her life if she married him (even though Malcolm knew the truth).

 

And the criticism is - what? That Felicity doesn't 100% support and enable Oliver to continue lying to her?

Edited March 7, 2016 by tv echo

[Ann Mack]

Or, the amount of leeway she decides to give him on lying is none, and no she won't accept he'll always keep things from her, which is why, in the episode that aired after that interview, Felicity dumped him.

 

As a general thing, I'm finding the idea that she should just suck it up and accept his lying because he really super loves her quite gross. So what else should a woman just accept from a dude as long as he "really really loves her"? The occasional affair? A smack or two across the face? Stealing her money? Actually, it doesn't even have to be gendered...no one should feel that they have to accept being treated like shit in any particular area just bc the person "really really loves" them. Flip it around...if you really really super love someone, you shouldn't habitually treat them like crap, at all, on any topic.

Those were Emily's words and with all the justification you are saying it is still a show. These writers ARE NOT going to make the hero look too bad. I think Emily is talking about what the writers are going to have her fictional character do in the show.Yes, she dumped him (because the writers wanted that effect and they also wanted her to literally walk away from Oliver, hence the miracle of walking right at that very moment) but at the same time in her interviews Emily kept addressing does she just walk away, how intertwined their hearts are, that they are soulmates. I'm not arguing or siding one way or the other I just think as I stated Emily KNOWS this SHOW and I think she understands the role they are going to have Felicity place in the relationship. Is it right or wrong, I don't think it matters to these writers

[AyChihuahua]

And the criticism is - what? That Felicity doesn't 100% support and enable Oliver to continue lying to her?

The argument usually comes down to "She's not perfect, either." Um, dude, her main flaw in terms of her relationships is getting kind of bitchy and snappy when she's stressed or tired. HIS IS LYING ABOUT GINORMOUS THINGS TO HIS LOVED ONES and occasionally making them think they're going to die. I mean HELLO false equivalency. If perfect is Illinois, Felicity's in Wisconsin, and Oliver's chilling on Pluto. As in the planet Pluto, not a town in Connecticut named Pluto.

Those were Emily's words and with all the justification you are saying it is still a show. These writers ARE NOT going to make the hero look too bad. I think Emily is talking about what the writers are going to have her fictional character do in the show.Yes, she dumped him (because the writers wanted that effect and they also wanted her to literally walk away from Oliver, hence the miracle of walking right at that very moment) but at the same time in her interviews Emily kept addressing does she just walk away, how intertwined their hearts are, that they are soulmates. I'm not arguing or siding one way or the other I just think as I stated Emily KNOWS this SHOW and I think she understands the role they are going to have Felicity place in the relationship. Is it right or wrong, I don't think it matters to these writers

That interview was PRIOR to the episode in which she dumped him. She asked rhetorical questions about how much Felicity was willing to take from him...and then in the actual episode Felicity wasn't willing to take his crap and therefore dumped him. It's not as if EBR could just state "Yeah, she's not willing to give him the leeway on lying, and she's not willing to put up with all this despite 'their hearts [being] intertwined'" (please tell me she didn't say those words, that is way too middle school for me)...because that would be a HUGE spoiler. Instead, she kept up the mystery of will she be okay with it or won't she.

 

All the soulmates stuff is relevant down the road. Everyone knows they're going to get back together. AFTER HE'S CHANGED.

[ComicFan777]

Another argument I've heard is...well, Felicity lied to Oliver about helping the team while they were away...so it is the same that Oliver lying about William - a lie is a lie - Oliver forgave her easily so she should do the same for him.

 

All I can say is...wow, there is a world of difference between the two situations.

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Ann Mack]

The argument usually comes down to "She's not perfect, either." Um, dude, her main flaw in terms of her relationships is getting kind of bitchy and snappy when she's stressed or tired. HIS IS LYING ABOUT GINORMOUS THINGS TO HIS LOVED ONES and occasionally making them think they're going to die. I mean HELLO false equivalency. If perfect is Illinois, Felicity's in Wisconsin, and Oliver's chilling on Pluto. As in the planet Pluto, not a town in Connecticut named Pluto.

That interview was PRIOR to the episode in which she dumped him. She asked rhetorical questions about how much Felicity was willing to take from him...and then in the actual episode Felicity wasn't willing to take his crap and therefore dumped him. It's not as if EBR could just state "Yeah, she's not willing to give him the leeway on lying, and she's not willing to put up with all this despite 'their hearts [being] intertwined'" (please tell me she didn't say those words, that is way too middle school for me)...because that would be a HUGE spoiler. Instead, she kept up the mystery of will she be okay with it or won't she.

 

All the soulmates stuff is relevant down the road. Everyone knows they're going to get back together. AFTER HE'S CHANGED.

Yes she said that exact word. She said "She might be able to take off the ring, but I don’t know if she can lose the intertwined connection of her heart, so we’ll see." http://www.ew.com/article/2016/02/24/arrow-emily-bett-rickards-felicity-oliver-break-up

Edited March 7, 2016 by Ann Mack

[AyChihuahua]

Yes she said those exact words.

That is unfortunate and embarrassing for her. She's usually so well-spoken.

[bijoux]

them breaking up over the lying and everyone dying because be was so distracted over their break up.

I know this is the show's reasoning but I can't stand it. No, they did not lose because Oliver was distracted due to their "break up". That happened right before they went to fight Savage at the warehouse. The one thing Oliver did differently right before the fight was taking Dig, Thea and Laurel to the warehouse in the current timeline. Their presence was not a deciding factor in Savage getting beaten this time around. Those go to the gauntlet and Kendra being able to fly and whatever the hell else she does. Those things were set into motion a lot earlier in the day than the original break up. If the show went with Oliver being distracted by the possibility of having a child he didn't know about, that's fine. However, I still fail to see why it was only Oliver's fault since there were bajillion people and a goat in that farmhouse. The goat was devious, I'm telling you. I bet it was the only survivor in the Central City area in the original timeline.

I'm not trying to find excuses for Oliver here. I'm not even blaming Samantha for his lies. Yes, she made stupid demands, but it was Oliver who decided to stupidly follow them. But in the instance of Savage winning, I will never buy that everyone got burned to a crisp because Oliver had the sads because Felicity yelled at him. Dude wouldn't have got much done so far if this were the case. Furthermore, it just doesn't align with what was actually shown on screen.

Edited March 8, 2016 by bijoux

[tarotx]

I haven't watched the crossover since it aired but I think everybody got burned to a crisped because Kendra didn't have confidence. Girl was a Barista just the other day and panicked when it come for her to show her power. In the new time line "Lets find another way" Oliver knew Kendra needed a more calming hand and sent Cisco to talk to Kendra. Which let her remember something that helped with the device to kill Savage. The thing is Savage is kind of easy to kill on Legends. Though of course not dead dead but dead enough that it would leave our heroes able to relax. They are here to save the present-not the future. 

 

What I take from both timelines is when Oliver doesn't find another way his world ends-either literally or figuratively. 

[looptab]

Another popular interpretation is that everybody died because Felicity dumped Oliver. As in, it's her fault. LOL

[Password]

They might have framed it as Oliver losing his head after Felicity dumped him but the story actually shows it was the device's fault for not working. The first timeline would've been fine if Kendra remembered the extra piece of information because in the end it was Barry and Oliver who held the stick of doom towards Villainous dude.

...OK so maybe Kendra would've died because she couldn't fly but the world would've been fine.

[AyChihuahua]

...OK so maybe Kendra would've died because she couldn't fly but the world would've been fine.

No great loss.

[Morrigan2575]

I haven't watched the crossover since it aired but I think everybody got burned to a crisped because Kendra didn't have confidence. Girl was a Barista just the other day and panicked when it come for her to show her power. In the new time line "Lets find another way" Oliver knew Kendra needed a more calming hand and sent Cisco to talk to Kendra. Which let her remember something that helped with the device to kill Savage. The thing is Savage is kind of easy to kill on Legends. Though of course not dead dead but dead enough that it would leave our heroes able to relax. They are here to save the present-not the future. 

 

What I take from both timelines is when Oliver doesn't find another way his world ends-either literally or figuratively. 

The way I remember it was that it was a few different things but none of it really boiled down to Oliver being distracted by William or the Olicity breakup.  Personally, I think the whole Olicity break up and the world ends thing is more shipper fannon than show.

 

In the crossover everyone died because Kendra couldn't release her inner warrior and because the gauntlets failed to contain the power of the staff.  Oliver figured out the answer not because he wasn't distracted in timeline B but because Barry basically said here's everything that failed first time through and Oliver decided well let's go in a different direction.

 

Since he knew Kendra failed the first time because Carter was training her, he decided to have Cisco reach out to Kendra instead.  This resulted in Kendra being able to tap into her priestess memory and pull up information about meteors that helped coat the gloves which then contained the power of the staff.

 

The only non-Kendra related change which actually was a direct result of Oliver being distracted was in timeline B, Oliver told Speedy/Spartan/Black Canary to suit up.  However, their presence made no difference to the end result in Timeline B.

[AyChihuahua]

Doesn't Barry kind of say that everybody died bc of the breakup when he tells Oliver about it?

[Password]

I do agree with you that the Olicity break up didn't cause the world to end but it did seem framed in that way.

Oliver shut down and kept the circle closed to he, Barry and the Hawks because he clamped up like a shell (like he normally does) in the first timeline after the breakup. Then for whatever reason they had Speedy, Diggle and BC join him because he was being inclusive again in the second. I can't remember if Barry told him exactly who went along but I don't think he did.

In actual fact it had nothing to do with Oliver's frame of mind and everything to do with the meteor whatsits but I don't think it's fair to say it's (simply) shipper fannon.

[looptab]

I think most shippers use it as a joke? AFAIK, reasonable people know the break-up was the least of their problems, but since the show framed it that way, might as well have some fun with it.

[Chaser]

That is unfortunate and embarrassing for her. She's usually so well-spoken.

That interview was word salad. It was also done by Natalie Abrams. I'm not saying its connected, but...

[tangerine95]

I don't think the olicity break up, which wasn't even a real break up imo more like Felicity doing her need some air thing, is what caused everyone dying. But idk i think Barry said something like it caused Oliver to be distracted or whatever so i think they kind of want us to see the break up as a big reason for what happened. But to me it looked like it was more about the Hawks and i guess not bringing the rest of the team that caused the problem.

[dtissagirl]

Doesn't Barry kind of say that everybody died bc of the breakup when he tells Oliver about it?

 

Yeah, Barry assumed Felicity broke up with Oliver, and then jumped to the conclusion that everyone died because Oliver didn't have his head on the game. OH, but also, here's a list of everything that actually went wrong, we should probably fix all that.

 

World's most unreliable narrator ever, ladies and gents.

Edited March 8, 2016 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

That's why Felicity doesn't return his calls.

[bijoux]

Yeah, Barry assumed Felicity broke up with Oliver, and then jumped to the conclusion that everyone died because Oliver didn't have his head on the game. OH, but also, here's a list of everything that actually went wrong, we should probably fix all that.

 

World's most unreliable narrator ever, ladies and gents.

This is my problem with it, that the show had Barry say it was all brought on by the presumed break up, Oliver bought it and no one questioned it. The fandom thing about the world ending comes off as joking and I don't mind at all.

[thegirlsleuth]

One bright spot in all this baby mama stupidity:  I think this is the roadblock they were going to throw in front of Oliver and Felicity's relationship, and once it is cleared it will be full steam ahead with only external barriers--villains, superviruses, aliens bent on world domination, the russian mob--keeping them from true happiness. As much as the writers seem to depend on relationship mel-o-drama when getting a couple together, they do a nice job or writing established relationships on all their shows.  It is my sincere hope that with this out of the way that it will be smooth sailing.

 

Until one of them dies, of course.

[kismet]

The only non-Kendra related change which actually was a direct result of Oliver being distracted was in timeline B, Oliver told Speedy/Spartan/Black Canary to suit up.  However, their presence made no difference to the end result in Timeline B.

Their presence may have gotten us to the graveyard occupant. If the timeline is trying to fix itself, then perhaps someone needs to die from the group as a sacrifice. And the only person that still owes death a debt is LL. So perhaps no difference in that outcome of VS, but a major difference for the show.

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from the Social Media Thread

I think that they had Oliver and Laurel jump into bed so suddenly at the end of season one in order to tie off the storyline. I think they had already decided to go the Oliver/Felicity route in season two--I think there is a Guggenheim quote to that effect out there--and therefore needed to have the culmination of the Laurel/Oliver storyline take place at the end of season one, as opposed to the end of season two or three, which might have been more organic.

 

It's really not even an opinion at this point, it's pretty much a fact.  MG gave an interview in April/May of 2013 right around season finale time where he outright stated they had to wrap up the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle before moving onto Felicity.  I'll see if I can find it.

[looptab]

I think it's this one posted by SmallScreenDiva

I think you might be thinking of this quote here: "The truth of the matter is that we sort of have to play that out first before we can play out Oliver and Felicity." Yeah, they needed to tie up L/O because they'd already picked a horse (or whatever Guggenheim calls it) and wanted the way clear for Season 2.

 

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

I think it's this one posted by SmallScreenDiva

If it was any clearer it would have bit me.  Yep, that's the article I was talking about.

[nksarmi]

As someone who does not like love triangles - I'm kind of glad that part of the show got blown up pretty early on.  And I can certainly see why they felt they had to wrap up Oliver and Laurel before moving on to setting up Felicity.

 

However, I don't see why Laurel and Oliver had to sleep together.  But given that they DID - I really wish guilt over that would have played into Laurel's drinking more in season two.  Like realizing she lost a great guy who did care about her and wanted to be a better man for her and what for?  For a guy who repeatedly cheated on her.  And I would have liked her anger in season two more directed toward Oliver than Sara - something like "I choose you over Tommy and then he dies and what? You fall in bed with my sister just a few months later? What the hell Oliver?  Did you ever care about me?"

 

That would be SO much better than being angry at Sara for taking Oliver away from her.  And it would have made it easier for me to believe that Laurel loved Sara so much that she would pick up her mask in honor of her and try to avenge her in season three. 

 

And on that note, I really wish Laurel had been MORE angry at Oliver for not avenging Sara in season three.  More angry at him for protecting Malcolm.  And if they had to write Laurel as "forcing" her way in to the team - I wish it would have centered around her hanging around until she got the chance to kill Malcolm when Oliver wasn't protecting him.  I wish they had written Laurel and Nyssa in a secret partnership all along to eventually kill Malcolm.  That's the only thing that could have saved Laurel forcing herself into the lair for me.

[dtissagirl]

That would be SO much better than being angry at Sara for taking Oliver away from her.  And it would have made it easier for me to believe that Laurel loved Sara so much that she would pick up her mask in honor of her and try to avenge her in season three. 

 

And on that note, I really wish Laurel had been MORE angry at Oliver for not avenging Sara in season three.  More angry at him for protecting Malcolm.  And if they had to write Laurel as "forcing" her way in to the team - I wish it would have centered around her hanging around until she got the chance to kill Malcolm when Oliver wasn't protecting him.  I wish they had written Laurel and Nyssa in a secret partnership all along to eventually kill Malcolm.  That's the only thing that could have saved Laurel forcing herself into the lair for me.

 

All of the suggestions you've been making the past couple of days about what they could have done with Laurel are contradicted by one simple fact: Laurel was intentionally sequestered in B-plot land by the writers. Everything you're saying they could have done with her needed Laurel to be part of the A-plot. She needed to be relevant to Oliver, and to Oliver's story, for any of that to work. And looking back now, it's very very clear that that was not something the writers were willing to do post S1. Even when she was given the A-plot in the Rise o'Buckles storyline in S3, they took Oliver out of the equation so that their narrative paths never ever crossed.

[AyChihuahua]

Why do you think they did that? Bc of the terrible chem, or just generally hating Laurel, or...?

[dtissagirl]

The chemistry first and foremost, probably. I know you guys like to say chemistry is subjective, but in Hollywood? It's really really not. If writers believe chemistry is lackluster, then they also believe there's nothing they can do about it. Chemistry is an ephemeral magical unexplainable thing that cannot be created. It just is. It just happens. That's how it works for them.

 

And if they're stuck with a character they don't really care for, but can't get rid of, it makes sense to give her limited amounts of story, but not involve her in the main storyline.

[AyChihuahua]

The chemistry first and foremost, probably. I know you guys like to say chemistry is subjective, but in Hollywood? It's really really not. If writers believe chemistry is lackluster, then they also believe there's nothing they can do about it. Chemistry is an ephemeral magical unexplainable thing that cannot be created. It just is. It just happens. That's how it works for them.

 

And if they're stuck with a character they don't really care for, but can't get rid of, it makes sense to give her limited amounts of story, but not involve her in the main storyline.

I can see that, because I don't even really see antagonistic chemistry, really. At least not GOOD antagonistic chemistry. And I don't see friend chemistry any more than I see romantic/sexual chemistry. It's one of the weirdest things I've seen on tv, but I'm guessing that's because usually actors aren't put together when their chemistry is this bad.

[nksarmi]

The chemistry first and foremost, probably. I know you guys like to say chemistry is subjective, but in Hollywood? It's really really not. If writers believe chemistry is lackluster, then they also believe there's nothing they can do about it. Chemistry is an ephemeral magical unexplainable thing that cannot be created. It just is. It just happens. That's how it works for them.

 

And if they're stuck with a character they don't really care for, but can't get rid of, it makes sense to give her limited amounts of story, but not involve her in the main storyline.

 

Ok let me ask you this - how much of Laurel's awful character development do you think is on the actress vs the writers?

 

Because sure if the writers saw that it wasn't THERE between SA and KC and just gave up on writing any decent storyline for Laurel than I suppose there is nothing KC could have done to save it.

 

But if it's a matter of the chemistry wasn't THERE between SA and KC AND KC wouldn't allow the writers to adjust OUT of making her Oliver's love interest than the blame is on her as well.  What I've been talking about are ways I think Laurel could have stayed relevant and even become BC without being Oliver's LI.  And I think if KC could have wrapped herself around that concept and dedicated herself to that - people probably wouldn't be hoping she is in the grave right now.

 

I could be wrong.  It could be that once the writers knew the chemistry was wrong between SA and KC they had no interest in making her character work.  I just strongly suspect it WAS possible but KC had no interest in making it happen so the writers didn't either.

Edited March 9, 2016 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

I can see that, because I don't even really see antagonistic chemistry, really. At least not GOOD antagonistic chemistry. And I don't see friend chemistry any more than I see romantic/sexual chemistry. It's one of the weirdest things I've seen on tv, but I'm guessing that's because usually actors aren't put together when their chemistry is this bad.

 

Yeah, I see a complete lack of any kind of chemistry too. There's a void where there should be the magical something that happens when actors click together onscreen. But my perception doesn't matter, because I'm not the one who actually decides who has and who doesn't have onscreen chemistry. Creatives producing content are the ones that do.

 

And that's what makes me wanna LOL forever about this. The weird part isn't the lack of chemistry, the weird part is still having 80 episodes of television produced after the lack of chemistry was detected by the creative team.