Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

I missed the marketing for season 2 because I watched On Netflix but I guess it just depends on who are your favorite characters. I think we got some great Diggle and Felicity moments during the time that Oliver was with Sara. 

 

I recently watched the entirety of S2 as a whole instead of waiting week after week for each episode to air. I think it's easier to watch the season as a whole and not think Diggle/Felicity got shafted for Sara than to watch week after week waiting for Diggle/Felicity moments only to get a few minutes of screentime. It's the wait that makes it worse. 

[Velocity23]

It was too much of Sara everywhere. She was in the past in the present, in the field, in the lair. And then there was that scene where BC and Arrow were babysitting a police officer.

[dtissagirl]

The thing that bugged me is I thought Sara had a pretty solid hero's journey arc from 201 to 213, that even culminated into her trying to kill herself... And then, instead of a metaphorical rebirth as a new kind of hero, she became the hero's girlfriend with zero journey from 214 to the finale.

At least LOT is now giving me her literal rebirth into a new kind of hero. I liked Sara on Arrow all right, but LOT made me LOVE her.

[DrSpaceman10]

I think Sara fits better on LoT than she ever did on Arrow, her character works better in an ensemble. I wouldn't want her to come back to Arrow as a series regular, I just don't feel like there's room for her (even if they kill a mask this season). Diggle and Felicity are (imo) better characters, so I'd rather have more story for them. 

[Sasha]

What I liked was that SA and CL were able to show the bond that Sara and Oliver had that went beyond friendship but wasn't romantic. They both realized that and knew that they would always love each other but were never in love with each other. 

I agree. They were sleeping together but it seemed more for comfort than passion. I really liked Sara and I wasn't shipping Felicity with Oliver then. I loved the friendship that developed between Felicity and Sara. At first Felicity felt left out but I never thought she was jealous. Maybe envious that Sara was such a badass but not that she was sleeping with Oliver. Sara seemed to really like Felicity. She made me think maybe Felicity could be the one for Oliver. She knew Oliver needed someone hopeful and light. I wish she would come back to see Felicity and kick Oliver in the nuts. Give him the beatdown his so richly deserves for ruining his relationship with Felicity.

Something Diggle should have done! I am so pissed that the relationship between Felicity and Diggle has been ignored all season. He should have had her back during the secret kid reveal. So should Barry. They both should have been loyal to Felicity. Now they're both tainted to me. When Felicity walked out on Oliver all I could think about was where will she go? Who's her shoulder to cry on? Maybe her Mom but I don't trust the writers. I doubt we will get to see much of Felicity's recovery. It will be all about Oliver's pain and his loss. Part of me wishes that they never went with Olicity. I liked the show so much better when it was just OTA catching bad guys.

[looptab]

The thing that bugged me is I thought Sara had a pretty solid hero's journey arc from 201 to 213, that even culminated into her trying to kill herself... And then, instead of a metaphorical rebirth as a new kind of hero, she became the hero's girlfriend with zero journey from 214 to the finale.

I don't know, I saw her keep struggling with what she wanted to be in the back half. Sure, being Oliver SO was the main characteristic at that point, but she still had the conflict of not wanting to be a killer but it being her first instinct, not seeing herself as a hero. I realized as i typed that those were very sparse moments, and as always with this show very lacking in logic - "I left the League because I had enough of the killing!"---> "Let's put Roy* down!"-  still, it didn't seem they abandoned it completely.

 

*These characters are always ready to give up on Roy, poor guy.

[dtissagirl]

I don't know, I saw her keep struggling with what she wanted to be in the back half. Sure, being Oliver SO was the main characteristic at that point, but she still had the conflict of not wanting to be a killer but it being her first instinct, not seeing herself as a hero. I realized as i typed that those were very sparse moments, and as always with this show very lacking in logic - "I left the League because I had enough of the killing!"---> "Let's put Roy* down!"-  still, it didn't seem they abandoned it completely.

 

*These characters are always ready to give up on Roy, poor guy.

Yeah, well, she didn't stop having characterization, and emotional beats, but it stopped being a journey of discovery of WHAT kind of hero she wanted to be. Which is what I thought they were doing in 2A. She dropped out of the hero arc when she started dating Oliver.

There was that moment when Laurel named her Canary, but even then we weren't sure that was what Sara really wanted. It was more for Laurel's sake to see Sara as a hero than it was a defining moment for Sara.

Otoh, Sara telling Rip she feels like a monster on LOT felt like a punch to the gut, because it's a terrible realization, but IS a defining moment: of what she wants to overcome. That's a journey.

[Sakura12]

From what I've heard Diggle and Felicity don't share that many scenes now and that is not Sara's fault. I thought the team dynamics were great between all of Team Arrow in season 2 which was Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Sara and Roy. 

 

 

Sara did have a lot of screentime in Season 2 but I don't think it was that much more than Felicity had. Arrow S2 is Arrow's best season IMO. They had some duds but every show does. Overall it just comes down to which character you like. 

 

However, I'm thrilled that Sara is on LoT now, she gets to grow and become a hero without being burdened by Arrow and it's characters. 

[bijoux]

What I liked was that SA and CL were able to show the bond that Sara and Oliver had that went beyond friendship but wasn't romantic. They both realized that and knew that they would always love each other but were never in love with each other. 

 

Two thumbs up for this. They really did manage to convey a sense of deep caring for each other.

 

From what I've heard Diggle and Felicity don't share that many scenes now and that is not Sara's fault. I thought the team dynamics were great between all of Team Arrow in season 2 which was Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Sara and Roy. 

 

 

For me, Sara worked well with the team at the lair. It's the times when I felt the show turned into an Oliver and the Lances show that got boring for me. My memory could be faulty, but I certainly felt she and Oliver were split off from the team for a while there, so that it was a relief when episode 19 rolled around and the four of them went on the mission to blow up Applied Sciences.

[looptab]

Yeah, well, she didn't stop having characterization, and emotional beats, but it stopped being a journey of discovery of WHAT kind of hero she wanted to be. Which is what I thought they were doing in 2A. She dropped out of the hero arc when she started dating Oliver.

There was that moment when Laurel named her Canary, but even then we weren't sure that was what Sara really wanted. It was more for Laurel's sake to see Sara as a hero than it was a defining moment for Sara.

Otoh, Sara telling Rip she feels like a monster on LOT felt like a punch to the gut, because it's a terrible realization, but IS a defining moment: of what she wants to overcome. That's a journey.

Oh, on that I agree. They did seem to lose the direction they were taking her. The resolution was rushed, she had the hero moment and then got back to the League. But I saw those moments as a progression of her journey - even if they were setbacks. I admit though that s2 is not very fresh in my mind right now, so I could be misremembering. :)

[statsgirl]

For me, Sara worked well with the team at the lair. It's the times when I felt the show turned into an Oliver and the Lances show that got boring for me. My memory could be faulty, but I certainly felt she and Oliver were split off from the team for a while there, so that it was a relief when episode 19 rolled around and the four of them went on the mission to blow up Applied Sciences.

There was a lot of Oliver and Sara going off on missions together and Diggle and Felicity left behind, just as happened when Laurel came into her Black Canary role and Diggle was either in the lair or the Black Helicopter Driver.  And the flashback episode was a dud for me because it seemed to be all Oliver/Sara/Slade all the time.

 

The show generally does a good job of showing Oliver's growth curves but it tends to be hit or miss with everyone else.  Sometimes they remember Diggle and sometimes they don't, and while Felicity has been generally good this season, her time on Palmer Island seemed to show shallowness rather than the ability to move beyond Oliver.  And poor Thea, who often comes across as more of a plot point than a character.

 

Just like they need someone on the show's staff to keep story continuity, they need to assign these characters to writers who will keep the character continuity for their character and call other writers on it when they don't.

[AyChihuahua]

*These characters are always ready to give up on Roy, poor guy.

Sara: Oliver, Roy left the toilet seat up...AGAIN. We need to PUT HIM DOWN.

 

Digg: Oliver, Roy forgot the tomato on my Big Belly Buster. We need to PUT HIM DOWN.

 

I still love ya, Roy. You're in my top three of best human beings on the show.

[tangerine95]

I didn't like the episodes while Sara was on the team and while her and Oliver were a couple.I didn't dislike her like I do Laurel and she did have chemistry with the team and was a badass canary but she did sideline Diggle and Felicity a lot for a while there and brought in the Lance drama as well as dragged Oliver into it.I was already invested in OTA and Diggle and Felicity as characters so seeing them so sidelined for Sara while she took over the show and was everywhere didn't sit well with me.I wouldn't ever want her back on Arrow as a regular even though I like her.I feel like the show doesn't have room for a BC at all.Sara is great especially when you compare her to Laurel being BC and on the team but I wouldn't be watching the show if it really was GA/BC focused like it was in the middle of season 2 even if BC was Sara.

[Sasha]

I don't think Sara bugged me as much because I watched most of it on Netflix and fast forwarded through the flashbacks. Hell I thought Slade Wilson was Shado's father for months! Even Laurel didn't bug because after the first two episodes I learned to ff all of her scenes. Season 3 I watched live and that was a serious mistake. Now I watch 20 to 30 minutes late so I can skip the flash backs but after the break I may go back to Netflix. A weekend of stupid is a lot easier to take than months waiting for the writers to fix their shit.

I think these writers need an intensive and extensive course with a good relationship counselor. They have fractured all these relationships and twisted them to fit the plot. It is all so unnecessary. I always go back to Buffy and the scoobies. That core group was always united against the big bad. There were a few bumps but redemption was always there and it felt earned. The characters had real growth not these silly bad soap tropes. They had action and drama with super heroes and big evil monsters but always at the core was this family of misfits. It had heart and I just don't see that on Arrow anymore.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Sasha

[kismet]

I agree. They were sleeping together but it seemed more for comfort than passion. I really liked Sara and I wasn't shipping Felicity with Oliver then. I loved the friendship that developed between Felicity and Sara. At first Felicity felt left out but I never thought she was jealous. Maybe envious that Sara was such a badass but not that she was sleeping with Oliver. Sara seemed to really like Felicity. She made me think maybe Felicity could be the one for Oliver. She knew Oliver needed someone hopeful and light. I wish she would come back to see Felicity and kick Oliver in the nuts. Give him the beatdown his so richly deserves for ruining his relationship with Felicity.

This is what I always liked about how Sara was introduced in the present. She blended in so nicely. I was disappointed that her journey sort of stalled while they had her sleeping with OQ. But I do think that similar pattern is happening with FS at times. I think it's just a weakness of the writers.

 

I do think having her in the present and in the flashbacks made her seem like she was taking over a lot of the show. But s2 still rocked, I don't remember much of the marketing ~ but when you go back and watch it in binge it's pretty strong.

 

I also think CL just has more natural chemistry with groups than KC does. Without much effort or scenes, I believed that FS & SL were friends and perhaps shared fun times in the lair. However, for two years now they have been trying to sell KC as the ensemble and I just don't buy it.

 

I'm glad they had OQ & SL hook-up to fulfill the GA/BC sexual relationship checkbox. SA & CL did work really well together. And it was a logical step for both of them considering their emotional states, past & their present. I never believed that they were in love with each other. However, I always believed that they love each other and will always be there for each other. I can't say that about everyone that hangs out in the lair.

[kismet]

Two thumbs up for this. They really did manage to convey a sense of deep caring for each other.

 

 

For me, Sara worked well with the team at the lair. It's the times when I felt the show turned into an Oliver and the Lances show that got boring for me. My memory could be faulty, but I certainly felt she and Oliver were split off from the team for a while there, so that it was a relief when episode 19 rolled around and the four of them went on the mission to blow up Applied Sciences.

 

I do sometimes wonder if it would have felt Lance heavy if we didn't have LL to deal with as well as SL. I think the show should have tried hard to balance everyone's role. But because LL was in her own separate plot line, they had to devote too much time to her and therefore most scenes

I think these writers need an intensive and extensive course with a good relationship counselor. They have fractured all these relationships and twisted them to fit the plot. It is all so unnecessary. I always go back to Buffy and the scoobies. That core group was always united against the big bad. There were a few bumps but redemption was always there and it felt earned. The characters had real growth not these silly bad soap tropes. They had action and drama with super heroes and big evil monsters but always at the core was this family of misfits. It had heart and I just don't see that on Arrow anymore.

Because Whedon & Co write for moments and Guggie & Co write for moves. I wouldn't mind if they brought in some changes to the writers room that could somehow get the writers to focus on the relationships moments and not the plot moves. And when I say I relationships, I mean all of them friends, partners, lovers, siblings, parent/children and team/family dynamics. S1 & S2 seemed to thrive because the relationships moments moved plot, told a story and grew the characters. S3 moved the relationships moments to the backburner, and it was plot, plot, plot. S4a was a rejuvenation of relationships being important but not plot ploys. S4b clearly forgot that rule and started putting the plot ahead moments. When you write for moments, story/plot just flow. 

[wonderwall]

Oliver makes the most stupid (and beautiful) heart eyes at Felicity

 

 

What. An. Idiot

 

http://fe-li-ci-ty-queen.tumblr.com/post/140483180231

http://fe-li-ci-ty-queen.tumblr.com/post/140483180231

Edited March 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

Oliver makes the most stupid (and beautiful) heart eyes at Felicity

 

http://fe-li-ci-ty-queen.tumblr.com/post/140483180231

http://fe-li-ci-ty-queen.tumblr.com/post/140483180231

Bless you for finding this, and the gif maker for creating it. 

[EmilyBettFan]

OMG he is just so cute lol! Felicity you have made him into a fool for you! These two just kill me.

[kismet]

I have only watched the break-up scene once, so some of my details might be off. But I was thinking one of the major things that annoyed me about the break-up, but also the whole secret kid reveal is there was never that moment of recognition from FS that the secret kid was what was causing OQ so much stress it induced the infamous boob cuddle. And I think that FS is smart enough to piece together that this BMD is all connected to what happened in 408. Perhaps it is because I just read a fic in which O&F have a discussion about some of the things that have been going on & that OQ has been hiding from her. And she connects the dots and mentions a moment between them that happened a few chapters before.

 

I feel like if the break-up episode was written better, a similar scene would have occurred on Arrow. I was expecting FS to say something about that moment in the crossover and connect it to the secret kid. I know she’s had a lot going on with her paralysis. But the lady is a genius, so I think she can mentally multi-task that her fiancé has been a little off regarding something since CC. I would have preferred that she made some reference to the boob-cuddle moment because the only thing I enjoyed about that moment was that it was FS talking about being a good partner and wanting to share information so that they can help each other.

 

I know OQ was stuck because of the ultimatum. However, it would have been nice for FS to indicate that if he had told her about the situation sometime in the last 3 weeks after MM & TQ found out, she might have been able to prevent all of this or at least get ahead of it. And that was one of the reasons the break-up had to happen. I think she implied most of this in her speech. For me though it was really quick and rushed. It would have been nice to call back to FS having insight about her fiancé, but letting him have some time to process. That he just missed the mark by keeping her out of the thought process for so long.

 

Moving forward, I think FS giving OQ some time and space to process his secrets, but letting him know she is there is a good attitude for FS to have considering the shows storytelling structure is based on random secrets & plot reveals. Now I just need OQ to start using the time she gives him wisely & pull her in for her advice sooner. Perhaps they will address it when they reconcile, because them having a unique insight and perspective into the other is what enables them to uniquely support each other. And that unique relationship is one of the reasons I love them as a couple. I don’t expect OQ to just tell her all his secrets, just like I don’t expect FS to demand to hear them. But I do need him to start to include her in his thought process a little sooner.

[looptab]

Would you define Oliver and Felicity's relationship abusive? I ask because I've been reading it being defined that quite often lately, and I think it would be an interesting discussion. I'll let you guess who the abuser is.

[dtissagirl]

Hahahahaha lol no.

[looptab]

:D She is  emotionally manipulating  and blackmailing him, I'm telling you.

Edited March 7, 2016 by looptab

[AyChihuahua]

Moving forward, I think FS giving OQ some time and space to process his secrets, but letting him know she is there is a good attitude for FS to have considering the shows storytelling structure is based on random secrets & plot reveals. Now I just need OQ to start using the time she gives him wisely & pull her in for her advice sooner. Perhaps they will address it when they reconcile, because them having a unique insight and perspective into the other is what enables them to uniquely support each other. And that unique relationship is one of the reasons I love them as a couple. I don’t expect OQ to just tell her all his secrets, just like I don’t expect FS to demand to hear them. But I do need him to start to include her in his thought process a little sooner.

I cannot NO this enough. This cannot be about Felicity just accepting that he'll lie to her about something huge that affects her every so often. And it's not about him keeping secrets, so to speak, it's about him LYING and keeping secrets about things that DIRECTLY AFFECT HER. He does not have to tell her every single thing that happened on the island. But, for example, as far back as S2 he was a complete and utter idiot not to tell them every relevant fact about Slade once he realized Slade was back and threatening everyone. When the secrets he's keeping adversely affect his loved ones, he no longer has the right to keep them. HE needs to change, not her. If she just says "Okay, once a year [season] he'll lie to me about something GINORMOUS that totally affects me/my life/my actual life as in I may die bc of his lying [e.g., Slade], she is a doormat, their partnership is horse crap, and he's no longer on a hero's journey.

[dtissagirl]

The idea that Felicity needs to learn anything here kinda makes my head explode. If Oliver's gonna continue keeping secrets from her moving on, she doesn't have to learn to accept that. She can choose not to date him ever again. And that's a 100% valid reason, and it's perfectly okay if this is where she draws the line.

 

Also, if Oliver continues to keep secrets, then all of this storyline is for naught, because this isn't real life. This is a constructed on-going narrative in which the protagonist keeping a huge secret ended up making him lose everything that was dear to him in one swoop. This is a storyline with a clear cut lesson: lying will make you lose everything. But that's a lesson FOR OLIVER, not for anyone else.

Edited March 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tangerine95]

Yeah I agree it would be pointless if this whole thing comes down to Felicity accepts that Oliver will lie from time to time and never fully let her in but it's just who he is. I don't think they want to keep Oliver like that, imo he is supposed to learn he can't to stuff like that if he wants to be with Felicity and have a healthy relationship or marriage. I think Felicity already gets that he is not perfect and will always be damaged from everything he's been though but that's why she's patient with stuff like not talking about the island, keeping a kid a secret and then sending him away without even talking to her about it is a totally different thing. I can't see her ever being okay with stuff like that happening again and him shutting her out of present day issues relevant to her and their life together.

[ComicFan777]

The lesson of the day is obviously not to lie, but I got the impression that Oliver wasn't happy about everything unfolded but seemed to think that his actions were justified and even defended BM's actions to Felicity.  He can only change if he sees that he did something wrong.  Do you think he thinks that lying is wrong based on the narrative so far?

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[apinknightmare]

He did apparently admit to Felicity that he should have told her (they cut the scene, but she mentioned it when she broke up with him), so who knows what the show is going for.

[bijoux]

Do you think he thinks that lying is wrong based on the narrative so far?

 

Do you mean in general or in this instance? If it's in this instance, my honest answer is that I hope he does. Apart from his all too quick convo with Thea in 4x14, there was also a short scene with Lance in which he said he was trying not to be living that way anymore, i.e. lying to the people he cares about. Frankly, that's the scene in which I most bought that he was torn up about this.

[HighHopes]

The lesson of the day is obviously not to lie, but I got the impression that Oliver wasn't happy about everything unfolded but seemed to think that his actions were justified and even defended BM's actions to Felicity.  He can only change if he sees that he did something wrong.  Do you think he thinks that lying is wrong based on the narrative so far?

 

I don't think he thinks it's wrong or that he did something wrong. So far after every season with a lie, the team have forgiven him for it so he has yet to learn that his lies have actual consequences. Everything in season three was completely forgiven (and forgotten), some of it before the 42 minute mark of 3x23. His lies about Slade, his own death, and everything involving the LoA (and him letting his team believe he was going to kill them) have yet to have any lasting effects. Everything is always forgiven, so he never learns that his lies hurt  IMO. 

 

So because his lies are forgiven, and the team moves on, (I think that) he thinks he was justified and right in the lying, because it all worked out in the end for him. 

[dtissagirl]

He can only change if he sees that he did something wrong. 

 

I think because they didn't want Oliver to come off as a completely douchecanoe in this dumbass storyline, they did something very weird with the narrative: every character backed up Oliver's actions -- even Felicity said she understood. But the way the plot advanced made all of the justifications for what Oliver did completely irrelevant.

 

Because what happened was Oliver kept the kid a secret ----> it didn't protect the kid anyway ---->  the consequences for Oliver were 1. he had to drop off of the election, 2. he had to send the kid away without even acknowledging he's the father, and 3. Felicity dumped him.

 

That's some pretty clear cut "lying is bad, mmkay", regardless of the reasons.

[looptab]

He did apparently admit to Felicity that he should have told her (they cut the scene, but she mentioned it when she broke up with him), so who knows what the show is going for.

Yeah, that's the puzzling part. They framed his lie as a legitimate lie, so who knows.

[ComicFan777]

Do you mean in general or in this instance? If it's in this instance, my honest answer is that I hope he does. Apart from his all too quick convo with Thea in 4x14, there was also a short scene with Lance in which he said he was trying not to be living that way anymore, i.e. lying to the people he cares about. Frankly, that's the scene in which I most bought that he was torn up about this.

 

I was mostly thinking of 4x15 where it seemed like everyone in the show was ok with his lying, except for Felicity.  I just got the impression he felt justified and that's why he never apologized to her. After that, I wouldn't have confidence in the writers to specifically address the issue of lying.

 

There were brief moments before that he brought the subject up before in 4x14, but seeing how happy he was to hear what Thea said - it made his brief moments of guilt feel less sincere to me. 

 

Since we didn't get to see the scene that he mentioned to Felicity that he should have told her, I would be curious of when Oliver thought he should have told her.  Hopefully, he knows that she should have been the first one to be told, not just when the occasion called for it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

We do still have time for him to learn that he was actually wrong (although I personally don't think he'll say he was wrong to LIE, I think they'll avoid that word and use "bad partner," instead, bc I think the EPs, who are a bit on the slow side, finally caught on to what a douchecanoe that was making him into). I've decided, at least for the moment, that my headcanon is that at the end of the day he thought she'd forgive him. That makes all this basically make sense...he supposedly planned eventually to tell her after he got BM's signoff (bc it's sooooo much better to tell her after she's officially a stepmom instead of just a future stepmom, god I hate this storyline). He had to know once Thea/Barry/MM knew that she'd eventually find out, too. But I pretty much think he thought she'd forgive him, bc she always has. SO, once he learns that she won't just get over it this time, he can FINALLY learn the lesson, bc he won't learn and change until he actually loses someone he loves over it, which, as many have pointed out, hasn't happened before, bc everyone has forgiven him...generally pretty quickly.

 

That's also why the breakup needed to be "permanent." If he knew she just needed time and then would forgive him, it'd be right back to him knowing she would, AGAIN, just get over it, just a little less quickly than usual. I'm really weirdly optimistic about this. I think he's FINALLY going to learn not to lie, at least not to her.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, it always makes wonder if they will actually let Oliver grow as a person if the showrunners think that secrets and lies are what moves the plot forward.

[tangerine95]

I do think they are going for Oliver learning that lies are the wrong choice no matter how impossible the situation but as i was afraid they were so freaked out by the backlash they tried way too hard to make him more sympathetic and went about it the wrong way. I think the fact that the kid was put in danger, had to be send away forever and Felicity left him means we're supposed to take it as the wrong choice. I mean every thing the lie was supposed to protect went wrong and the opposite happened, idk how that can be the right choice. In the crossover it was way more clear his choice to lie was wrong imo with all the chances he got to tell Felicity, them breaking up over the lying and everyone dying because be was so distracted over their break up. MG even called it a regression right after. All the but he had no choice and its the mother of his child crap came after the backlash and imo it was their very dumb way of damage control.If they end it with Oliver thinking its not wrong and with Felicity realizing she has to accept that and fogive him, there is no character progression in that and there always is when Oliver does dumb stuff that has huge consequences.

[looptab]

I'm trying to think of examples of secret kids in literature and movies,  to compare, but the only thing I came up with was Jane Eyre and Rochester's secret wife. Hoping Oliver doesn't end up blind. :)

[ComicFan777]

I'm trying to think of examples of secret kids in literature and movies,  to compare, but the only thing I came up with was Jane Eyre and Rochester's secret wife. Hoping Oliver doesn't end up blind. :)

 

...maybe one-armed though...

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, it always makes wonder if they will actually let Oliver grow as a person if the showrunners think that secrets and lies are what moves the plot forward.

He can still lie to other people, and other people can lie to other, other people. I'd prefer he not lie to his teammates in the future, but I really particularly need him not to lie to her about stuff that affects her. Not bc she's my favorite, but bc she's going to be his WIFE.

 

I feel really very comfortable that 4.15 was in nearly every way an overcorrection to a LOT of people on social media, me included, calling Oliver a lying self-centered douchebag. They pulled back on a LOT of stuff about his lying, and they had nearly everyone more or less okay it, bc they realized that a dude who would lie like that to the woman he "loves," is not going to be well-liked. So they're just going to frame it as him learning to be a good partner, which includes, but is not limited to, not lying. Without ever saying the word "lying." 

 

Basically they're spineless cowards who wussed out on their shitty storyline once they realized how hated it was, and ended up with something pretty incomprehensible. But hey, it's OVER!!!! Now he can start becoming a better person, partner, and future spouse, which was and is the point of all this hell.

 

Hey, does anyone have any thoughts on why they made it clear that Oliver knew MM knew? I can't see ANY story or plot benefit from that, and it made Oliver look TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE. The whole thing would have worked if WE knew MM knew, but he didn't tell Oliver. I don't get that at all and would love any kind of intelligent explanation.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

Hey, does anyone have any thoughts on why they made it clear that Oliver knew MM knew? I can't see ANY story or plot benefit from that, and it made Oliver look TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE. The whole thing would have worked if WE knew MM knew, but he didn't tell Oliver. I don't get that at all and would love any kind of intelligent explanation.

 

...maybe to demonstrate outright betrayal to Oliver's face (like a clear slap in the face)...to show him that he had too much blind faith in blood family (thinking that Malcolm wouldn't betray him to that extent), and now Oliver clearly knows that he was completely wrong in his thinking...

 

I guess 4x15 was kinda a slap in the face for Oliver because he clearly needs to work on his trust issues.  Malcolm clearly betrayed him when he trusted him (God only knows why he would ever trust Malcolm not to divulge his secret and not tell the team), whereas Felicity definitively showed him he was so wrong in not trusting her with the secret in the first place (not that there should have been any question to that).

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

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Tbh I'm surprised anyone has enthusiasm for this storyline after it was handled so poorly. I have no faith that the writers will actually let Oliver learn because he's done it over and again every season. It's their go-to for moving a story forward.

I'll reserve judgement until the season is over but I don't think Oliver will learn how to be "a better partner" with these writers. They can't comprehend writing for character.

[wonderwall]

If the writers can

kill off Laurel Lance

, I will keep hope that they can make Oliver learn to be a better partner. 

[AyChihuahua]

...maybe to demonstrate outright betrayal to Oliver's face (like a clear slap in the face)...to show him that he had too much blind faith in blood family (thinking that Malcolm wouldn't betray him to that extent), and now Oliver clearly knows that he was completely wrong in his thinking...

 

I guess 4x15 was kinda a slap in the face for Oliver because he clearly needs to work on his trust issues.  Malcolm clearly betrayed him when he trusted him (God only knows why he would ever trust Malcolm not to divulge his secret and not tell the team), whereas Felicity definitively showed him he was so wrong in not trusting her with the secret (not that there should have been any question to that).

But wouldn't that have worked with the big reveal in 4.15 that MM knew and betrayed him, rather than Oliver knowing beforehand? Because him finding out MM knows isn't the slap in the face, it's him finding out that MM TOLD.

 

I love (and no, didn't watch but I read enough reviews, etc., that I generally know most details), that when they got back to the lair Felicity didn't spill that the 10-year-old DD kidnapped was Oliver's. That's a great little moment about how Felicity CAN FUCKING KEEP SECRETS.

 

(As an aside, yes I know I swear more on the boards now, but it's not me, it's the BM storyline. I can't help it. It's the woooooooorst.)

Tbh I'm surprised anyone has enthusiasm for this storyline after it was handled so poorly. I have no faith that the writers will actually let Oliver learn because he's done it over and again every season. It's their go-to for moving a story forward.

I'll reserve judgement until the season is over but I don't think Oliver will learn how to be "a better partner" with these writers. They can't comprehend writing for character.

I am really not sure why I'm optimistic, but I really kind of am. About this one particular thing, anyway.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think he thinks it's wrong or that he did something wrong. So far after every season with a lie, the team have forgiven him for it so he has yet to learn that his lies have actual consequences. Everything in season three was completely forgiven (and forgotten), some of it before the 42 minute mark of 3x23. His lies about Slade, his own death, and everything involving the LoA (and him letting his team believe he was going to kill them) have yet to have any lasting effects. Everything is always forgiven, so he never learns that his lies hurt  IMO. 

 

So because his lies are forgiven, and the team moves on, (I think that) he thinks he was justified and right in the lying, because it all worked out in the end for him. 

 

I don't think I agree with all of this, and partly it's because I feel like all I can do is compare Oliver's treatment to the treatment of other characters on the show (or even in the Flarrow universe) versus what might be normal in the real world. You might not judge on that metric, which I get. But IMO, Oliver has been held more accountable and faced more real, tangible consequences for his actions (especially his secrets/lies) than any other character in the Flarrow world. He also ends up being the one who pays for other people's mistakes (especially Thea's and Laurel's in S3)

 

Tommy froze him out for the latter half of S1 after learning his secret. His lies about (and to) Slade got his sister kidnapped and arguably his mother killed, leading him to try to offer his own life. Quentin actively hated him for, what, nine months or so, trying to ruin his life and get him sent to prison/his death after learning he kept Sara's death a secret. He had to drop the Arrow identity and Roy had to leave town forever (that's a bigger consequence for Roy of course, same with Moira's death, but it's still a consequence, and we still see Oliver feeling active guilt/grief over these things and trying to right them, especially when compared to how the show treats other characters when similar things are their fault) (cough, Laurel, cough).

 

And it did take Diggle about six months to forgive Oliver for the LoA stuff. (In general: I don't think the show viewed Oliver letting the team think they were going to die in NP as negatively as viewers did, so yeah, none of the characters really got upset with him about that. I think the show felt like it was Oliver's only avenue to save their lives (and to ultimately save SC), and that once the team realized that, they would get it. But just like with the BMD, it didn't work for many viewers because it felt like there was a third option, which was to just have Oliver give some signal to one of the team.) As @dtissagirl mentioned above, the result of the BMD is the loss of his mayoral campaign, his engagement/relationship, and his son. Had he made a better choice in December, he may not have lost any of those things. Maybe they'll make that explicit in the next few episodes--we'll see.

 

But anyway. I do agree that Oliver is ultimately forgiven for his lies by his loved ones (as is every character on the show/in the greater universe), but I guess I don't think that means that he hasn't learned anything and never will. It gets at a fundamental question for me, which is: what would "lasting effects" entail on a TV show? How lasting? What kind of effects? The show has to tell an entertaining story, and Oliver's role at the center of the story makes it difficult to keep him separated from other main characters for long, or for him to be the one who pays physically/with his life. They spent most of S3 having him at odds with Felicity and it was a slog to get through. I've never been so relieved to have something quickly resolved as I was when he and Dig made up in 403. Yep, most of the freeze-out occurred off-screen, and that was just fine with me. The same will be true, for me, when half of the O/F breakup will have taken place off-screen during this hiatus (I'm guessing). I don't want to see them being cold and distant for another season. So to me, from a narrative perspective and an entertaining television perspective, I don't care to see Oliver "punished" for his mistakes by those closest to him for longer than a short arc of episodes, because selfishly, those relationships and interactions are the reason I watch the show. :) 

 

My answer to "how is Oliver ever going to learn?" is that it's really MG who has to learn. They need to figure out how to create plot from things other than Oliver keeping secrets, after this season. This secret was already OOC for S4 Oliver, IMO, but I am willing to see it as a regression and a last gasp of old Oliver peeking through, but after this...I would find it very difficult to understand or accept another story along these lines.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[doesntworkonwood]

To go back to an earlier point, we've already seen that Felicity is willing to give Oliver space and isn't going to pester him about his secrets, so I don't understand why that is a lesson that she has to learn. Even in the crossover, when she first realised Oliver was acting weird she gave him space when he asked her too. She didn't get angry at him because he didn't tell her about the kid straight away, she got angry at him because he lied straight to her face about it (when he literally could have said it's something I need more time to process, or it's something I need more time to talk to you about rather than it's something to do with Damien Darkh). And also in the current time stream, at the end of that episode she didn't even ask Oliver to elaborate on anything when he just said it was over. 

 

In fact in that episode she talked about how talking her shouldn't be another burden, it should be a relief, and that was a similar sentiment to what we got with the break up (though unfortunately she didn't really get to say the words outright). Essentially, Felicity wants a partnership and she has every right to want that sort of relationship. At this point she was 'all in' and we got to see that progression in 406, so for her to find out Oliver wasn't even though he'd implied it by proposing to her would have obviously come as a shock as well as a very legitimate reason to end the relationship, as well as a very legitimate reason for her not to want to reenter into it without the solid knowledge that they were both 'all in'. There's nothing for Felicity to learn or accept here, and it's not fair on her to have to accept something less than honesty and openness from her partner because that is what she is giving to him. 

My answer to "how is Oliver ever going to learn?" is that it's really MG who has to learn. They need to figure out how to create plot from things other than Oliver keeping secrets, after this season. This secret was already OOC for S4 Oliver, IMO, but I am willing to see it as a regression and a last gasp of old Oliver peeking through, but after this...I would find it very difficult to understand or accept another story along these lines.

I think that's the problem with this storyline. Oliver does do stupid shitty things, and he does learn, but because the writers don't know how to write anything else it comes across as though he hasn't. Quite frankly, like all of the other shitty storylines (Oliver/Laurel, pre-island Oliver/Sara, the whole LOA/MM thing) I'm pretty sure that as soon as this is over it won't ever be mentioned in the show again. There's a reason that it's so easy to forget the shittyness of season 3, because it's never spoken about on the show, and that's kind of the MO of these writers. Write something bad, get negative fan and critical reception, attempt to fix it quickly, never mention it again. 

[AyChihuahua]

There's a reason that it's so easy to forget the shittyness of season 3, because it's never spoken about on the show, and that's kind of the MO of these writers. Write something bad, get negative fan and critical reception, attempt to fix it quickly, never mention it again. 

I mostly agree, but they have redone several chunks of S3, and they sure like to bring up the N/O wedding, maybe the most-hated SL ever on the show. I think it's a combo of "Ha ha, we're hilarious 12-year-old boys" and Guggie being a total douche. He really likes to punish the audience for not appreciating his genius.

[ComicFan777]

But wouldn't that have worked with the big reveal in 4.15 that MM knew and betrayed him, rather than Oliver knowing beforehand? Because him finding out MM knows isn't the slap in the face, it's him finding out that MM TOLD.

 

 

I was thinking about this further and I think the purpose of Oliver knowing this beforehand is really about Oliver actively letting Malcolm go (building up to grave scene), rather than how it is directly about the kid.  It's really about how he shouldn't have let him go and the personal responsibility that Oliver has in this happening.  Letting him go and knowing what he has done is very different from just finding out that he isn't trustworthy - it adds a layer of personal responsibility for Oliver which will also tie in to what he said in the graveyard and why he feels he needs to take care of Malcolm himself.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking about this further and I think the purpose of Oliver knowing this beforehand is really about Oliver actively letting Malcolm go (building up to grave scene), rather than how it is directly about the kid.  It's really about how he shouldn't have let him go and the personal responsibility that Oliver has in this happening.  Letting him go and knowing what he has done is very different from just finding out that he isn't trustworthy - it adds a layer of personal responsibility for Oliver which will also tie in to what he said in the graveyard and why he feels he needs to take care of Malcolm himself.

So once again it wasn't about the characters, but was about setting up a future plot point?

 

Man this show is weird. Guggie: "Let's make our HERO look absolutely nutbars, and weirdly uncaring about his son even though in an epi or two we're gonna need him to be willing to give up ERRYTHING for the dumb kid whilst screaming 'MY SON!' in order to set up a plot point 3 or 4 episodes from now, that (1) has been set up just fine since S1, JUST FRIGGING KILL HIM ALREADY, JFC! and (2) could have had this particular note of setup done in a way that doesn't make the HERO look batcrap crazy."

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I cannot NO this enough. This cannot be about Felicity just accepting that he'll lie to her about something huge that affects her every so often. And it's not about him keeping secrets, so to speak, it's about him LYING and keeping secrets about things that DIRECTLY AFFECT HER. He does not have to tell her every single thing that happened on the island. But, for example, as far back as S2 he was a complete and utter idiot not to tell them every relevant fact about Slade once he realized Slade was back and threatening everyone. When the secrets he's keeping adversely affect his loved ones, he no longer has the right to keep them. HE needs to change, not her. If she just says "Okay, once a year [season] he'll lie to me about something GINORMOUS that totally affects me/my life/my actual life as in I may die bc of his lying [e.g., Slade], she is a doormat, their partnership is horse crap, and he's no longer on a hero's journey.

Yea, I sorta agree with you if this is real life. Or even a realistic show. But it's not. Time and time again the writers have proven that their default to move plot is secret and lies. And we know how much moving plot means to them. So until they learn some new writing habits and techniques, I would prefer not to see OQ & FS or OQ & TA break up every year over secrets and lies. I don't want anyone to be a doormat, esp FS. But I also can't sit through another angsty will he ever learn arc? Frankly, they write FS as the smarter character so it might be easier for her to learn how to deal with OQ & the writers stupidity/lack of creativity than to hope that they will ever change.

[dtissagirl]

Frankly, they write FS as the smarter character so it might be easier for her to learn how to deal with OQ & the writers stupidity/lack of creativity than to hope that they will ever change.

But how does this work in practice within the narrative? Felicity realizes Oliver will never stop lying? And then she forgives him for being a serial liar? And then the next time he lies she just shrugs it off? This doesn't make any sense in a hero's journey.

eta: Now that I think about it, Felicity learning to accept that Oliver will always lie and keep secrets from her basically turns Felicity/Oliver into pre-island Laurel/Oliver. Achievement unlocked?

Edited March 7, 2016 by dtissagirl