Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

From the media thread:

Her parents for their distrust and leaving when Laurel needed them the most, Sara for her betrayal, Tommy for not taking no for an answer. 

Her parents didn't leave her; she left them.

 

In the deleted scene from Salvation, Dinah says that after Sara died, Quentin lost himself in his work (the Dollmaker case presumably), Laurel had already moved out and was in law school, and she [Dinah] had no one and so she left for Central City.  At this point, Laurel was 22, an adult living on her own and going to law school, as compared to Thea who was 12, had lost her father and her brother and whose mother shut herself in her room to mourn and ignored her daughter.

 

Tommy not taking no for an answer is a standard romantic trope, he's loved her for so long but she's always dismissed him.  And at this point, it was five years after Oliver and Sara had "died".  If Laurel didn't want to date him, she should have been more gracious rather than accuse him of setting up a fund-raiser for CNRI because he wanted to "get in her pants".

 

Laurel did merit her anger at Sara but beyond the anger she should have felt some happiness that her sister wasn't dead after all.  Instead, it was all anger until Oliver confronts her (I hate the mansplain this show does and then suddenly she does a 180.   In s1, she was so angry at Sara and so angry that Dinah was trying to find her that she did something unforgivably cruel to her mother.

 

Little children lash out in their anger because they have no real power and because they don't have the cognitive skills to be able to deal with their feelings.  Laurel was 27.

[Carrie Ann]

It's sometimes futile or silly to apply real-life emotional responses to TV (you know, like, 'I would never date a vampire!'). But in this case, the show was asking and expecting us to do just that. It was expecting viewers to say, "Damn right Laurel hates Oliver and wishes he'd stayed dead! Of course she's not happy her sister's alive--who would be???" When, actually, I think most people wouldn't feel that way.

 

Speaking from experience, I don't think it's normal to still be full of rage at being cheated on, five years later. Adults are capable of growing up, moving on, having perspective--especially if the people involved have died! I've gone into that on this topic before--the writers just really don't understand or care about how human beings actually behave. That becomes frustrating when they're relying on that very factor to sell you on a character/arc.

 

What sucks is that the show could have, and should have, played with the complicated emotions Laurel had to suffer through--of course she would have been grieving, but then she's also stuck with this inconvenient rage and humiliation and disappointment and heartbreak. But they should have shown that she had moved on from that, and then Oliver's return dredges some of it up again. So, we should have seen her try to just be happy and warm and welcoming when he got back, but then start to see the tension around the edges.

 

Instead, they did the opposite. The show basically only addressed her anger, which didn't ring true for normal human responses, and that one note got really, really old. I lost sympathy for her almost immediately, when it became obvious that she had enough self-pity already, she didn't need any of mine. Clearly she'd done nothing in five years to help herself, but just wallowed in her rage, let all that negativity fester, really sold herself on this tale in which she was the real victim, not the two people who died.

 

The fact that, on Laurel's scale, Oliver cheating on her is more important than him actually dying? I mean, that says it all. Why would I sympathize with someone like that? And you could suggest that it's misplaced anger over Sara's death, except Laurel proves that's not the case when Sara returns in Season 2. She continues to believe that being cheated on was worse than Sara and Oliver "dying," being tortured, and having five years of their lives taken from them. She continues to blame them for her problems, and to resent them for cheating on her, then for dying, then for being alive. Whatever it takes to keep herself in the position of victim.

 

It's just...yeah, once again, I know the writers didn't intend this in S1, and then they kinda tried to steer into their mistake by making Laurel go off the rails in S2, but all that happened is that we got two seasons of a character who was shown to be almost incapable of empathy/sympathy, so the audience in turn found it difficult feel any for her. That might be okay for your basic antihero, or lovable villain, or even a side character, but your leading lady? Who's supposed to turn into a great heroine? And is being described as selfless and compassionate? Nope. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[dtissagirl]

They set up the people who knew Oliver pre-island in a really weird way. It makes sense that Oliver [and Sara too in S2] had some hardcore emotional arrested development issues, because they spent their formative adult years running and fighting for their lives, instead of learning how to be grown ups. But it's like the people they left in SC were all in emotional stasis during those five years. Laurel is still too angry, Tommy is still playboy-ing [did he ever go to college? Did he ever have a job? What did Tommy do all day long for five years, seriously.], Moira is still conspiring with Merlyn, Thea spent five years acting out... They all aged, but they were suspended in time. Which is a horrible set up.

I think they might have gone that way because they had to explain why would all this people still be interested in Oliver. Especially Laurel and Tommy, who had to be the exact same people Oliver left so that it made sense that the relationships even existed five years later.

And all of it without ever showing us much of what those relationships were like pre-Gambit.

It's no wonder the audience clinged to Diggle and Felicity. We saw them start their relationships with Oliver, and we saw WHY they stuck with Oliver, and they weren't weighted down by the weird choice of having to behave like a five year old trauma happened like, a month before.

Edited July 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, Oliver and Sara were thoughtless, douchebaggy, skanky dicks back in the day.  Neither deserved death for that, and I will never stop thinking Laurel's reactions to both were massively overwrought.  A more typical reaction would be to be quite happy they were alive, but probably not want to hang out with them a whole lot.

[olicityfan25]

Especially considering she's your sister. I still can't wrap my head around how they think we should root for Laurel. I just can't. She's so warped in her view of being the BC. She completely stole everything from Sara. It's no wonder they got her back for LoT. They saw the reaction and fans for Sara and wanted her back.

[kismet]

I get that she is still angry after 5 years, but she should at least show some positive emotion that her sister & former lover/friend are actually alive. It was so bizarre to me that her biggest reaction to their resurrection was all centered around her & her emotional frustrations. Everyone else on the show seemed to suffer from some emotional arrested development from the accident, but their reactions at least to some degree were about either OQ & SL, not just about themselves.

 

Going along the lines of CarrieAnn & DancingNancy, perhaps the writers could have used the 5 years of Laurel's anger to show that she had taken up martial arts while grieving/mourning/processing her anger & lost over Sara & Oliver. It would have been the perfect set-up as to why she has fighting skills. Granted it would not have been the same training level that OQ & SL got, but it would have been something.

 

It's perfectly logical that if Laurel was that distraught over everything she might take up an outlet to vent. Martial arts would have matched her need for focus & aggression. But the writers seemed to forget for s1 & s2 that they were supposedly laying down the foundation for BC/LL, future vigilante/martial artist extraordinaire. And then they brought in fully operational Canary in s2 which only highlighted how poorly they had prepared LLs character & overshadowed any attempts in s3 to make her LLs journey believable as a fighter. I get that LL has the spirit & heart of a vigilante/hero, but she has had 8 years to physically acquire skills & the writers decided she only needed 8 months or so of training. Its really ridiculous that they didn't think to incorporate something into her backstory to explain her physical skills over the past 8y. They gave her the name & thought everyone would just get on board.

[quarks]

Tommy is still playboy-ing [did he ever go to college? Did he ever have a job? What did Tommy do all day long for five years, seriously.], 

 

 

Tommy said in episode 7 and 8 that he's never had a job.  That was one reason Laurel was urging him to ask Oliver for a job - he had no other work experience, and although I can't imagine that this would usually be a problem for a trust fund brat using family connections to land a cushy job somewhere, he'd just lost his connections to Malcolm.  That left the Queens. I suspect if Oliver hadn't had the night club, Laurel would have advised Tommy to ask Moira or Walter for a job.

 

My impression was that Tommy never went to college. I don't recall this specifically said on the show, but Malcolm says something about Tommy never doing anything, and college would have been something. Also, Tommy had no problems jetting off to Hong Kong without notice a couple years after the Gambit sank. He never mentioned classes or anything like that. Of course, by that time, he could have graduated - Laurel was already in her last year of law school - and it's possible that unlike Oliver he managed to stay in college, but my sense was no.

[BkWurm1]

From the Starling City Times News thread:

 

 

 

A list I never really thought I'd see Oliver in until this season: 

 

7 TV Hunks Who Ruined Us For Real Life Dating

http://telltaletv.com/2015/07/7-tv-hunks-who-ruined-us-for-real-life-dating/

Oliver Queen does not belong on this list, you say. Oliver Queen is a player. He’s not a one-woman man. And you would have been right a couple of seasons ago. Not now. Oliver Queen was not a perfect boyfriend to Laurel Lance, let’s be clear on that. But so far, even when he hasn’t been her actual boyfriend, Oliver’s devotion to Felicity Smoak is actually the stuff of fairytales. He proclaimed his love for her at the send of Season 2, and from that moment on, even after the disastrous date, even when she was dating Ray, Oliver never wavered. He was in love with Felicity, damn it, and she was all he wanted. No other woman existed. In fact, he’d already said “I love you” multiple times before we ever actually got to hear her reciprocate. But that’s okay. Oliver wasn’t saying it to hear it back. He was saying it because he just couldn’t keep it in.

Cue me melting into a poodle of goo at the floor.
 
If he was this dedicated before he and Felicity were even in a relationship, can you imagine Season 4 Oliver?

 

The bolded part is what prompted a visit here.  Before season three I always imagined Oliver as a little aloof even in his most loving relationship but now, it occurs to me that isn't really in character at least with Felicity.  Maybe he'd mind his surroundings a little more in the future but while he did keep the PDA to a minimum, he was rather free and open with expressing what he wanted in front of any and everyone there at the end. 

 

It would have made a lot of sense to save his "I want you above anything, please run away with me" speech until after his ex and her ex had left the room.   

 

His unabashed openness with his feelings gives me a good warm, glowing, feeling about season four.  They have the potential to turn me to mush in every episode. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by BkWurm1

[EmeraldArcher]

Oliver had me at "I'm glad it did" in 3x20! That statement alone was a shift in his ability to be open about his emotions. And then he killed me with "I love you all the more for it" and his not-goodbyes to Felicity when he stayed in NP.

I'm purposefully ignoring any crappy thing he did from that point until he told Felicity about his dream and transformed into a beautiful, romantic love puppy. (I have struck his actions in the LOA from my brain and will squeeze my eyes shut against any reminders posted here.)

Seriously, Oliver's "unabashed openness" about his feelings inspire me with so much hopeful anticipation!

Edited July 7, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[AyChihuahua]

I'm purposefully ignoring any crappy thing he did from that point until he told Felicity about his dream and transformed into a beautiful, romantic love puppy. (I have struck his actions in the LOA from my brain and will squeeze my eyes shut against any reminders posted here.)

I really wish I could do that.  I didn't even watch those episodes and I feel like I have mild PTSD from what he did to them.  

[GreatAtBoats]

The constant erasing of Oliver's relationship with Sara and the huge strides he made because of it continues, I see. It makes it hard to take any of these lists -- and the Olicity relationship itself -- seriously when they marginalize anyone in Oliver's life who isn't Felicity.

[statsgirl]

Do we know what Oliver's relationship with Sara pre-show really was? 

 

We know that Sara had a crush on him and Laurel got her grounded because of it.  We know that Sara knew that Oliver had cheated on Laurel with 10 women but was still willing to join him on the Queen's Gambit, but do we know if they were friends or ever hung out together in a group?  We know that he used to date McKenna (in between Laurel times?) but I don't think we know what his relationship with Sara was.

 

On the island, I assume they slept together but maybe they didn't since Shado had recently been killed and Slate was around.  And then Sara "died" again.

 

I wish they had given us more about Oliver's relationship with Sara in s2 -- was it two people who thought they didn't deserve real love?  FWB?  leftover business?  It's hard to tell because it got shoved into the background between Slade's revenge and Laurel's addiction arc.

 

What strides do you see Oliver as having made?

 

The fact that, on Laurel's scale, Oliver cheating on her is more important than him actually dying? I mean, that says it all. Why would I sympathize with someone like that? And you could suggest that it's misplaced anger over Sara's death, except Laurel proves that's not the case when Sara returns in Season 2. She continues to believe that being cheated on was worse than Sara and Oliver "dying," being tortured, and having five years of their lives taken from them. She continues to blame them for her problems, and to resent them for cheating on her, then for dying, then for being alive. Whatever it takes to keep herself in the position of victim.

 

That's also true when it comes to her relationship with her parents, which is what bothers me more than with Oliver and Sara who at least had some responsibility in what happened.

 

Sara dying would have been harder on Quentin than on Laurel, and especially hard on Dinah who blamed herself for not stopping Sara from getting on the boat. They probably both blamed themselves for indulging Sara so that she was wilful like that.  Half of all marriages break up when a child dies because it's so hard on the parents but for Laurel, it was always and only about how she feels (including s3's "I can't tell him because I can't lose another person") and zero empathy for her parents.

[apinknightmare]

I'm curious about what strides Oliver made with Sara as well. I mean, he obviously cared very deeply for her, but I didn't see him improve very much through his romantic relationship with her. Their first episode as a couple involved Sara carelessly inviting him to a family dinner with Laurel and him accepting the invitation like an idiot. There was the bit where he pushed her away during the Suicide Squad ep, and she convinced him not to. But then he still (and even still, a year and a half later) needed additional support from other people to convince him that he doesn't have to do everything alone. I suppose she did get him to stick firmly to his no-kill stance with the whole Roy thing, but that's something he was already doing anyway. 

 

Like I said, I don't doubt that he cared for her - he obviously did very much. But their romantic relationship didn't seem to do much for either one of them IMO.

[tangerine95]

The constant erasing of Oliver's relationship with Sara and the huge strides he made because of it continues, I see. It makes it hard to take any of these lists -- and the Olicity relationship itself -- seriously when they marginalize anyone in Oliver's life who isn't Felicity.

I don't think it was erased at all.He said he loved her a few times this season.I just don't think he was in love with her,or she with him.Guggenheim even said so on tumblr. Their relationship seemed to revolve more around comfort  then anything else. And IMO they were randomly thrown together to fulfill the comic canon of GA/BC and get it out of the way.I don't remember him making any huge strides because of the relationship. It was pretty clear in season 3 how much Oliver cared about Thea,he sacrificed himself to save her twice.That seems  pretty important to me.I also think its normal for the person he's in love with to be one of the most important people in his life.

[Chaser]

If any character erased Oliver's relationship with Sara, it was Malcolm. I still can't believe Oliver would willing work with the man who set the events in motion that killed Sara and turned Thea in a killer.

 

S2 "Find Another Way" Oliver would not have.

[dtissagirl]

Perception is awesome. I see Sara's relationship with Oliver in present time as an immense regression for her, much more than for Oliver. He wasn't risking much there. But even if Sara were in it solely for the rebound, she risked damaging her relationship with Laurel permanently, for what basically turned out to be a dead-end fuck buddy who was in love with someone else.

 

I mean, I get that both Oliver and Sara probably should have "no impulse control" tattooed in their foreheads, but Sara really got the short end of the stick there. And the writing didn't help, because the relationship wasn't about her at all. It was about a lot more about Oliver/Felicity and Laurel, than it ever was about Sara. She only had much of a voice in the matter when she ended the relationship. Which -- good for her.

[kismet]

The constant erasing of Oliver's relationship with Sara and the huge strides he made because of it continues, I see. It makes it hard to take any of these lists -- and the Olicity relationship itself -- seriously when they marginalize anyone in Oliver's life who isn't Felicity.

Can I just ask what makes you think they are erasing Oliver's relationship with Sara? I just haven't seen anything new or different in the media or on this board, so I wasn't sure if there was something in particular.

 

When I think about their relationship I see a close friendship & bond, but I didn't see some great romantic love. I think they both cared deeply about each other but were never in love with each other. If they hadn't slept together in present time, I would almost feel like they could have had a deep sisterly/brotherly bond, especially after their time on the Island. They have a shared trauma battlefield experience. That being said, I think the relationship did mean a lot to both of them post-island and should not be trivialized just because it is not as "romantic" as s1LL or s3FS. 

 

I also wonder if losing Sara is perhaps why OQ had some regressions & set backs in s3. Perhaps her loss only confirmed all of his fears and set in motion some of his less than insightful decisions in order to protect those he loved at all costs, since he failed Sara. Losing Thea, only further tipped the scales. Sara's death was only a reminder to him that he fails those he loves & her death probably was worse in his mind than Moira or Tommy because she was trained/skilled and still it didn't help her in the end.

Edited July 8, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

I also wonder if losing Sara is perhaps why OQ had some regressions & set backs in s3. Perhaps her loss only confirmed all of his fears and set in motion some of his less than insightful decisions in order to protect those he loved at all costs, since he failed Sara. Losing Thea, only further tipped the scales. Sara's death was only a reminder to him that he fails those he loves & her death probably was worse in his mind than Moira or Tommy because she was trained/skilled and still it didn't help her in the end.

That is an interesting way of looking at poor stupid S3 Oliver's unbelievably stupid decisions.  I like it.  It's illogical as hell (him, not you) because, you know, League of ASSASSINS members probably have a fairly high mortality rate, but logic was not his strong suit in S3, and you made me hate him a tiny little iota less.

 

Also, "less than insightful," hee!  You're a really nice person.

[BkWurm1]

I think they both cared deeply about each other but were never in love with each other.

 

We know that initially Sara at least THOUGHT she was in love with Oliver.  Wasn't that the reason her mom didn't stop her? 

 

I suspect part of her always wondered what could have been between her and Oliver had the world not imploded.  I don't think she was in love with him during their time back in Starling City but they had that moment when Oliver brings up them getting an apartment together where suddenly she has this look of hope like she realized she COULD fall in love with him given encouragement but in the same few heartbeats she realizes that he's not asking her to move in with him for anything but cold logical reasons and the dream dies.

 

When she breaks up with him she says it's because he needs someone that can better reach the light still inside him, but I think they were over the moment she realized that while she might still be vulnerable to her old crush given the circumstances, Oliver wasn't ever going to be IN love with her.  She was just the convenient option at hand. 

 

I think another little piece of that old Sara disappeared in that moment.  . 

Edited July 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Password]

I'm really going to have to rewatch that let's move in together scene.

[Sunshine]

I'm not really sure why but I never thought he was suggesting they move in together.  Maybe Oliver's history?  I took the scene as suggesting she get a place ("You have to be tired of living at Laurel's") where they could be alone together since Roy was in The Foundry.

 

I think Oliver and Sara loved each other.  I just never thought they were in love. 

[apinknightmare]

I'm not really sure why but I never thought he was suggesting they move in together.  Maybe Oliver's history?  I took the scene as suggesting she get a place ("You have to be tired of living at Laurel's") where they could be alone together since Roy was in The Foundry.

 

He was definitely suggesting that they find a place together - he said "we" several times. But I think he was framing it in the context of, you can't keep staying at Laurel's and we can't sleep in the foundry, so let's find a third location where we can be alone. When she reframed it in the context of moving in together moving in together, the lil hamster that powers his brain came to a screeching halt, haha.

[tv echo]

I think Oliver and Sara loved each other.  I just never thought they were in love. 

I agree with this.  I think pre-island Sara had a crush on Oliver (and maybe some issues with her sister).  Post-island Sara bonded with Oliver because of shared experiences, but they were not in love.  I think post-island Sara was in love with Nyssa but couldn't stand being part of the LOA and left (of course, she then rejoins them, but that's another topic).

Edited July 8, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

He asked her to move in like it was a roommate situation, not like we are in a serious relationship and this is the next step. As soon as she rephrased it, he got spooked. I remember watching it the first time and feeling bad for Sara In that moment. Here is the guy who gets you completely, who she feels deeply for, who she shares this history, who starts talking about moving in together....but when she implies the big step of living together he does the deer in headlights look.

I think they were both playing towards something more but when push comes to shove they had been holding back. Living together would have been huge. I think she would have been willing to go there and see what happens, but Oliver blinked.

Side note: I wonder if it occurred to Sara that one of the reasons they were where they were is because Oliver blinked with Laurel too. If it did occur to her, that must have hurt. I'm suddenly picturing this scene of Sara and Laurel talking about the break up and Sara mentioning that moment and Laurel just rolling her eyes at Oliver.

Edited July 8, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Sunshine]

He was definitely suggesting that they find a place together - he said "we" several times. But I think he was framing it in the context of, you can't keep staying at Laurel's and we can't sleep in the foundry, so let's find a third location where we can be alone. When she reframed it in the context of moving in together moving in together, the lil hamster that powers his brain came to a screeching halt, haha.

This may very well be why I never viewed it as him suggesting they move in together.  It was his look when she mentioned moving in together.

[Sakura12]

It's funny how we can read scenes completely differently. I didn't see Sara as being hopeful when Oliver asked her to get a place together. I saw shock and we are definitely not ready for that face. Caity didn't really have a love sick look on her face, it was more subdued like "what, did I hear that correctly?". That's why she wanted clarification of what he was asking. 

 

I actually think that's when Sara realized she wasn't over Nyssa and her relationship with Oliver wasn't going to go anywhere because she was too far in the dark. 

[Guest]

I'm with Sakura12. From what I remember, Sara seemed shocked and kind of hesitant that he asked her to move in. And when she reframed the question and Oliver realized the implications of what he said, I think it was obvious the relationship was dead in the water from there. It was so awkward.

 

And knowing how Sara got back together with Nyssa (in the 2.5 comics), I don't think she was over Nyssa either. She just realized that whatever she had with Oliver was always supposed to be transitory. 

 

All that being said, I don't think any of this erases Oliver and Sara's relationship. They were together when they really shouldn't have been and they moved on. I don't see how that's erasing anything. Geez.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Guest

[Password]

It's funny how we can read scenes completely differently. I didn't see Sara as being hopeful when Oliver asked her to get a place together. I saw shock and we are definitely not ready for that face. Caity didn't really have a love sick look on her face, it was more subdued like "what, did I hear that correctly?". That's why she wanted clarification of what he was asking.

...yeah this was my interpretation too. She was surprised IMO. Not hopeful.

[Sakura12]

Someone said they erased Sara and Oliver's relationship? When? 

 

They were in a relationship, it didn't work and then they broke up. Nothing erased anything, that's what happened. They both knew they loved someone else and were only together because it was easy. 

 

If anything, I think Oliver pushed back his relationship with Felicity after Sara died because he was scared that the people he let get close to him either get injured by a crazy ex (Helena injuring McKenna), or die (Shado and Sara). In his stupid martyr way he thought he was protecting Felicity from himself. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

If anything, I thought Sara and Oliver's relationship was "raised" rather than "erased" this season. We'd never heard the word "love" really used in reference to Sara (although it was implied) in S2 but in S3 she was referred to a number of times as a woman Oliver had loved. 

[NumberCruncher]

The funny thing is that even Felicity acknowledged Oliver and Sara's relationship in the 2nd episode of S3 when she confronts him about his seeming indifference to Sara's death. I distinctly recall her referring to "your Sara" as in the woman he loved. How having his current flame verbalize the existence of the ex-girlfriend is somehow erasing the relationship is a bit of a puzzling interpretation, but I guess people see different things.

Edited July 8, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[AyChihuahua]

And the famous "woman you love" speech.  Wasn't it that Malcolm got one woman Oliver loved (Thea) to kill another woman he'd loved (Sara). 

 

Also, there are all different kinds of love.  I see Oliver's love for Laurel as weirdly more romantic than his love for Sara.  He was fairly moony over Laurel in S1, but I got much more of a comrades/really good friends with chemistry and lots of history vibe with Sara. 

 

Rewatching S2, Oliver really did pull back pretty hard from Felicity after Heir to the Demon (13).  If this were RL, that would probably totally tear her up, since she'd just admitted to him that she feared losing him, and then told him Moira's secret after Moira told her he'd hate her if she told him.  Since these writers suck at writing actual human emotions, though, I never really got that vibe from her in the show.  She was a little upset in 14, but it seemed like she mostly just felt kind of left out, and then they moved right on past any of that, but Oliver barely interacted with her until the final few episodes.  Coupled with SA pulling way back on Olicity shipping at that time, I wonder if they weren't planning to do Olicity, or did they just want a big surprise at the end when it turned out Slade had Felicity?  I mean, SA tends to cheer on whatever the show is doing at that time (I'll always think his whole "Oliver is dead" thing after 3.9 was just ridiculous), but it's hard to tell. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think they were trying to do a bait-and-switch in that Sara was being set up in the back half of the season as who Oliver loves the most and then — bam! — it turns out to be Felicity with the mansion confession. That explanation, of course, would have made more sense if it weren't for the fact Laurel was still the one Slade kidnapped first and Sara was totally removed from the love interest role. 

 

There's a part of me that did wonder if the lunge was better received if Oliver and Sara would have continued on as a couple for a bit longer. But the fact they weren't really given a lot of romantic beats (which Oliver and Felicity were given earlier in the season) makes me think that relationship is really just a stumbling block to Olicity and a way to detonate Laurel/Oliver. A lot of the things that happened could still have happened (and probably would have been better framed) even without a romantic/sexual relationship between Sara and Oliver. That's been discussed on this board ad nauseum.

 

As for Stephen backing off Olicity, I believe it was part of a show-mandated effort to slow Olicity down and to explain the headscratcher that was Sara and Oliver (I mean, Caity and Stephen themselves have admitted feeling like they were thrown a curveball when they read the lunge in the script since they weren't playing Sara and Oliver in any way still attracted to each other). I think there's an interview with Kreisberg (I'm trying to look for it) actually saying they didn't quite expect the massive reaction to Olicity and they had to slow it the hell down. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I don't mind the SA thing too much, because he has a history of supporting whatever the show is doing (except Raylicity...his face just doesn't go that way).  It's more that on rewatch, man, they didn't just slow down Olicity, they put the hammer down on it.  Those two barely even interacted until Sara dumped Oliver. 

 

Wouldn't it have worked better re getting people thinking it could be Sara if she hadn't dumped him in 20?  That seems kind of removed from the big twist three episodes later.

[Sakura12]

The EP's can always go with it was Slade that thought Oliver was still hung up on Laurel and not knowing about his relationship with Sara. Although you'd think he would have been spying on Oliver's every move and seen him hanging around Sara more than Laurel during his time in SC. 

 

Then again this show likes to make everyone stupid for plot. So that is what we have to go with. 

[apinknightmare]

That whole "person you love the most" thing was idiotic. The plus side is that it did provide me with the scene that makes me cackle more than any other on this show: when Slade is on the comms with Oliver and he tells Oliver that he's got the one that he loves, and if Oliver doesn't meet him when and where he says, he's going to kill her. Thinking that Slade's talking about Laurel (because he doesn't know that Slade has Felicity yet), he says, "You do what you have to." LMAO. 

 

Not that I think Oliver would've really let him kill her, but damn, son. OTP AMIRITE?

[tangerine95]

I think they had Sara and Oliver get together so they could do the BC/GA relationship with her instead of Laurel.And I agree to slow down Olicity and totally destroy lauriver. As for Oliver being in love with Laurel IMO he really wasn't.I mean no matter how immature he was cheating with her sister and implied many other girls,getting one of them pregnant, doesn't say true love to me. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

The EP's can always go with it was Slade that thought Oliver was still hung up on Laurel and not knowing about his relationship with Sara. Although you'd think he would have been spying on Oliver's every move and seen him hanging around Sara more than Laurel during his time in SC. 

 

Then again this show likes to make everyone stupid for plot. So that is what we have to go with. 

 

Except Slade actually saw Sara and Oliver back on the island, seen their interactions, knew it was Sara who Oliver cheated with and thought Oliver "chose" Sara over Shado. And yes, you'd think with Slade following Oliver's every move he'd have a clue about Sara and Oliver reconnecting again. But yeah, so much of the back half of Season 2 was just stupid. Just like Season 3. The writers wanted to do certain things and characters were sacrificed for plot.

Yeah, I don't mind the SA thing too much, because he has a history of supporting whatever the show is doing (except Raylicity...his face just doesn't go that way).  It's more that on rewatch, man, they didn't just slow down Olicity, they put the hammer down on it.  Those two barely even interacted until Sara dumped Oliver. 

 

Wouldn't it have worked better re getting people thinking it could be Sara if she hadn't dumped him in 20?  That seems kind of removed from the big twist three episodes later.

 

They had that very powerful moment in 2x18, 2 eps before the dumping. The one where everybody was telling Oliver what he can't do and he was getting mad and Felicity steps in and tells him to "Go get Thea." And I don't think if this counts, but Oliver listened to Felicity's plan to blow up QC's Applied Sciences Division. The show did start bringing Felicity back into the picture before the dumping, I think. But yeah, I hated that she (and Diggle) got pushed aside so "Arrow" can play with GA/BC.

[AyChihuahua]

That whole "person you love the most" thing was idiotic. The plus side is that it did provide me with the scene that makes me cackle more than any other on this show: when Slade is on the comms with Oliver and he tells Oliver that he's got the one that he loves, and if Oliver doesn't meet him when and where he says, he's going to kill her. Thinking that Slade's talking about Laurel (because he doesn't know that Slade has Felicity yet), he says, "You do what you have to." LMAO. 

 

Not that I think Oliver would've really let him kill her, but damn, son. OTP AMIRITE?

They do such weird little beats, though.  Because I agree with you, plus he'd said the same thing to Quentin, that he wasn't dropping everything for Laurel.  But just a short while before that they had him saying he should have stayed with Laurel instead of sending her to the precinct.  It was a small, but very odd, little moment of him freaking over Laurel again, with no real cause, and then Felicity says she'll be fine, she'll be with her dad.  This show is SO inconsistent with emotions.  Seriously, how many times did Oliver go back-and-forth re killing the Mirakuru soldiers?  He was totally down with dropping a building on them, and then five minutes later he's all "we'll do this with no killing, I'm looking at you, Nyssa, no one dies tonight".  Um, they would have with your five-minutes-ago plan, you weirdo.

[apinknightmare]

They do such weird little beats, though.  Because I agree with you, plus he'd said the same thing to Quentin, that he wasn't dropping everything for Laurel.  But just a short while before that they had him saying he should have stayed with Laurel instead of sending her to the precinct.  It was a small, but very odd, little moment of him freaking over Laurel again, with no real cause, and then Felicity says she'll be fine, she'll be with her dad.  

 

Yeah. I never really thought too much about the freak out because I figured he was just worried that she was walking to the precinct by herself instead of them dropping her off there. I guess when it's Laurel vs. random mirakududes he's anxious, but if an actual enemy has her, all bets are off, haha.

[Chaser]

Did he say 'I should have gone with her?' I remember reading something about that scene that said when Felicity said Laurel would be alright, Oliver looked at her sharply and they thought Oliver was saying 'you should have gone with her'.'

 

Idk. I would need to rewatch it.

[apinknightmare]

Did he say 'I should have gone with her?' I remember reading something about that scene that said when Felicity said Laurel would be alright, Oliver looked at her sharply and they thought Oliver was saying 'you should have gone with her'.'

 

I think he says "I should've gone with Laurel to make sure she got to the precinct." Whatever he says before "should've" is really not easy to hear. 

[dtissagirl]

I still think Sara was the Love Interest Switch Facilitator.

 

They needed to dump Laurel as The One and insert Felicity into that narrative role. But for whatever reason, they didn't want to go right from one to the other [they've been legit avoiding pitching Laurel and Felicity against each other in text, so maybe that's the reason], so they used Sara for multi-purpose plot-driven shenanigans.

 

- Oliver and Laurel "broke up" in 201, and Laurel turned into a straight up Arrow antagonist right after, just in case you didn't get it.

 

- Oliver and Felicity flirty-flirted and were given all the romantic beats from 201 up until the 213 lunge. The landmine, "I'm glad to see you", jumping off the QC window, "Girl Wednesday", Isabel, "because of the life that I lead", the Count, "there was no choice to make", Barry, "maybe he's dreaming about you", Thea's paternity secret, "you're not gonna lose me".

 

- Sara/Oliver happened right then after that. The 213 lunge and the dinner from hell in 214 facilitated the 214 hallway scene between Laurel and Oliver, so he could spell out that he was over her for real, in case you still didn't get it from 1. all the flirty flirt with Felicity and 2. hooking up with Sara.

 

And even then, in case you're not paying attention to the switcheroo, 214 ends with that godawful "you're always gonna be my girl", even though Oliver and Sara are in a ~really real~ relationship now.

 

- Then they were also setting up Oliver/Felicity via the totally not fake I love you in the finale. So Oliver/Sara had to stay around for awhile [see: Laurel/Tommy. Also see: Felicity/Palmer]. Guggenheim likes his GOTCHAS! and think they're super duper smart [they're not], so what better [worse] way to set up their new Love Interest by using Sara as a sleight of hand? Everyone's looking at Sara, but psych! Slade kidnaps Laurel, Oliver legit couldn't care less because he took the wrong woman. Cue *heart eyes* in the mansion, and the island, and presto: Oliver/Felicity OTP set up complete.

 

The fact that Stephen mentioned that Oliver's been aware of his feelings for Felicity since 206 makes me think I'm right, but as usual, ymmv.

Edited July 8, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

Did he say 'I should have gone with her?' I remember reading something about that scene that said when Felicity said Laurel would be alright, Oliver looked at her sharply and they thought Oliver was saying 'you should have gone with her'.'

 

Idk. I would need to rewatch it.

Oh no, it was definitely Oliver saying he should have gone with Laurel to the precinct (post-nearly blowing up all the Mirakuru soldiers).  And there was no cause, nothing to make him think of her in that moment.

 

Okay, they're in the van, going for the cure.  Oliver's exact words are "I should've gone with Laurel and made sure she got to the precinct."  

 

"The fact that Stephen mentioned that Oliver's been aware of his feelings for Felicity since 206 makes me think I'm right, but as usual, ymmv."

 

I agree, and definitely think Oliver was digging her and knew it around then, but that almost makes it worse.  Like man, are you going to crap all over Felicity's feelings every season?  It's basically Oliver saying "I dig you; I dig you; I really dig you; thank you for telling me you're scared of losing me, I promise you won't...I'm sorry, what was your name again?"

Edited July 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Oh no, it was definitely Oliver saying he should have gone with Laurel to the precinct (post-nearly blowing up all the Mirakuru soldiers).  And there was no cause, nothing to make him think of her in that moment.

 

Sure there was. It was right after Felicity mentioned that there were over 200 reports of masked men trying to destroy the city. It doesn't make sense that he seemed to care more about her in that moment than the other two where he put his mission ahead of her safety, but since he just left her to walk to the precinct alone, I get why Felicity mentioning that would make him feel like he should've made sure she got there safely. 

[AyChihuahua]

Sure there was. It was right after Felicity mentioned that there were over 200 reports of masked men trying to destroy the city. It doesn't make sense that he seemed to care more about her in that moment than the other two where he put his mission ahead of her safety, but since he just left her to walk to the precinct alone, I get why Felicity mentioning that would make him feel like he should've made sure she got there safely. 

So random bad guys toddling around the city makes him want to put his mission on hold for an escort job for Laurel, but an hour later Slade actually threatening to kill her makes him say "Nah, busy, sorry dude."  That makes sense?

[apinknightmare]

So random bad guys toddling around the city makes him want to put his mission on hold for an escort job for Laurel, but an hour later Slade actually threatening to kill her makes him say "Nah, busy, sorry dude."  That makes sense?

 

I didn't say it made sense. You wrote that he didn't have any reason to think of her in that moment, but he did. 

[AyChihuahua]

My point was that the emotional beats did not make sense.  He had that moment of apparently serious worry about Laurel because of random MIrakuru street violence, in which he wanted to put his mission on hold.  Then he told Quentin too bad re Laurel, then he really told Slade too bad re Laurel.  That was my point. 

[dtissagirl]

I agree, and definitely think Oliver was digging her and knew it around then, but that almost makes it worse.  Like man, are you going to crap all over Felicity's feelings every season?  It's basically Oliver saying "I dig you; I dig you; I really dig you; thank you for telling me you're scared of losing me, I promise you won't...I'm sorry, what was your name again?"

 

I'm good with Oliver in S2 wrt Felicity, because he really thought she was into Barry. He was aware he had legit serious feelings for her in Russia. And then everything with the Count happened, and at that point Oliver knew Felicity at least was attracted to him sexually, and thought of him as a friend. And she had told him he deserved someone better than Isabel. I don't think he was planning on acting on it "because of the life that I lead", but he knew where she stood, and he probably could see a blip of hope in the horizon.

 

But then Barry showed up, and Oliver imploded. I think for Oliver, Barry was like a slap in the face. Barry made him actively go the opposite way, instead of just doing nothing. The whole rudeness/jealousy when Felicity was in Central City was his response to the girl he's crushing on crushing on someone else. Even before the lunge, Oliver was already in overreaction mode.

Edited July 8, 2015 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

 

My point was that the emotional beats did not make sense.  He had that moment of apparently serious worry about Laurel because of random MIrakuru street violence, in which he wanted to put his mission on hold.  Then he told Quentin too bad re Laurel, then he really told Slade too bad re Laurel.  That was my point.

 

Not arguing with you necessarily, but I can see guilt-ridden Oliver worrying about voluntarily letting Laurel walk to the precinct alone and wondering whether he should've taken a few minutes to make sure she got there okay vs. putting everything on hold specifically to go and save her above other people in the city. When he worried about her getting to the precinct, Waller wasn't getting ready to level the city, and Slade's men weren't attempting to flee via the tunnel, but after Laurel was kidnapped, he had those things to deal with. So, while Oliver probably could've taken a few minutes to make sure Laurel got to Quentin safely, he really didn't have the time to go on a one-woman rescue mission when there were other pressing matters that could affect a lot more people. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by apinknightmare