Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

Re the 3.20 sex scene (which I haven't watched, because the thought of a meaningful and steamy love scene in that situation depresses me, just like the rest of S3, but I'm relying on all of your opinions that it was very hot), I really liked Mindy Kaling's admission recently that filming sex scenes with hot co-stars is fun.  Because come on, making out with SA is fun.  That is their job, it doesn't mean they're going to have an affair or something, but even with a camera in your face and people telling you where to put your hands, unless your co-star is gross or a jerk, it's fun.  I remember back in the day James Marsters was thrilled to make out with the Buffy-Bot...his statement was "Hey, it's still Sarah!"  So go EBR/SA, keep having fun filiming those scenes, because zero-chem sex scenes are zero fun to watch. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

Re the 3.20 sex scene (which I haven't watched, because the thought of a meaningful and steamy love scene in that situation depresses me, just like the rest of S3, but I'm relying on all of your opinions that it was very hot), I really liked Mindy Kaling's admission recently that filming sex scenes with hot co-stars is fun.  Because come on, making out with SA is fun.  That is their job, it doesn't mean they're going to have an affair or something, but even with a camera in your face and people telling you where to put your hands, unless your co-star is gross or a jerk, it's fun.  So go EBR/SA, keep having fun filiming those scenes, because zero-chem sex scenes are zero fun to watch.  I remember back in the day James Marsters was thrilled to make out with the Buffy-Bot...his statement was "Hey, it's still Sarah!"

 

But if you ever decide to look up their sexytimes on YouTube, watch the version without the soundtrack. It's crazy hotter. ;)

[EmeraldArcher]

But if you ever decide to look up their sexytimes on YouTube, watch the version without the soundtrack. It's crazy hotter. ;)

I also find the slo-mo version incredibly hot. Although, Oliver's lightening fast shirt removal in real time is also pretty hot.

I realize I keep using the word "hot,"-- just talking about the obvious, all those candles must have given off serious heat. ;-)

[AyChihuahua]

I would like to watch it, but I'm still so pissed that they had a superhero join a group of murderers.  I get that it was for reasons, but I absolutely hate it.  And that he was basically giving up (I know he had a plan, but he was pretty much giving up on being with the love of his life/living much longer) just pisses me off more.  Especially because it was after several seasons of him giving up and needing constant pep talks from Felicity or Digg.  I like my superheroes a little less surrender-happy, so that really, really taints the sex scene for me.  I'm very much hoping for a new one in S4...just as much focus, less nihilistic horror. 

 

Hey, does anyone else think Oliver relies way, way too much on random people's random cliche statements for, like, strategic decisions?  I was watching S2 last night, and he needed Blood to help him figure out how to deal with the Lance sisters (some people stay in the crucible bc that's what they're used to), and random Ivo-caused cancer guy for his latest surrendermonkey attempt (someone once told me the essence of heroism is to die so others can live).  In S3 that's pretty much all he did: ditched Felicity because Maseo told him a man can't live by two names, ditched everybody because Tatsu told him he'd have to give up everything he loved to beat Ra's, paired up with Malcolm bc Tatsu told him only the student can defeat the master, finally got his head out of his ass re his surrendermonkey tendencies bc Felicity told him to fight to live (seriously, he had to be EFFING TOLD THAT?!?).  I think to some extent it's just the way tv shows work, but I really don't remember it being this blatant on the other shows I've liked.  Like seriously, Oliver, don't make strategic/life decisions based on random fortune cookie bs sayings!

[lemotomato]

Seems to me that shows like Grey's Anatomy do that stuff all the time--random patient of the week somehow teaching the main characters how to deal with their personal issues du jour. It's formulaic writing, but not unique to Arrow.

[tarotx]

Oliver just needs to carry a motivational book around. He's easy to deflate though at the same time easy to motivate into saving everyone other than himself....

And you should watch the episode. It has action, romance and human moments. Almost everything the show needs to move forward. Even if you don't agree with the LOA story or with Olicity. I mean in a general sense... Imo it was one of the better episodes of season 3. Though I guess take that as you will with the s3 decline.

Edited June 25, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

Haha, yes, Oliver basically walks around with a lightbulb atop his head, and whenever someone offers ~sage widsom~, it lights up. My favorite one is that "love is the most powerful emotion" HE dispensed to Team Arrow, repeating what Sara had told him in the island flashbacks. O RLY, OLIVER? Love is the one that is powerful? Who woulda thunk, buddy.

 

I hate that too, because all I see is WRITERS WRITING parallels, except they're not so much parallels as heavy anvils falling on my head. Ouch.

 

Also, I totally get being angry with the storyline and that sullying the goodtimes for O/F, but really, The Fallen is such a blatant Indiana Jones ripoff that THAT is what makes the episode so great for me. There's awful angsty dramalhama stuff going on, but OUR HEROES ARE GOING ON SEXY ADVENTUREY SHENANIGANS! All that's missing is the hat and the whip. And someone yelling WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE SNAKES.

Edited June 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

Seems to me that shows like Grey's Anatomy do that stuff all the time--random patient of the week somehow teaching the main characters how to deal with their personal issues du jour. It's formulaic writing, but not unique to Arrow.

I think in S1 it was more subtle.  Events would happen in the flashbacks that would link thematically to current day events.  In Buffy, often the MotW would thematically link to the rest of the episode.  But in S2 and especially S3 Arrow, some random character will say some cheap quasi-philosophical sentence to him, and he'll then base all his decision on that once sentence, until some other character says some countering cheap quasi-philosophical statement.  It basically makes him seem moronically robotic...garbage saying in, garbage actions out, repeat until new garbage saying in, ad infinitum.

 

For the record re 3.20, I tend to overthink tv shows, and I just can't with the superhero surrendering/joining evil group of evil murderers.  Watching that episode would basically be punishing myself.  However, I am on board with Olicity.  I mean, I think the writers screwed up that relationship big time in S3, but I still fundamentally like them together and read tons of actual good Olicity fic.

Edited June 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[calliope1975]

Watching that episode would basically be punishing myself.  

 

I understand. I skipped several eps in S3 because I knew I would rage all week and my psyche didn't need that. I concur, though, that 320 was a pretty good ep. I would also recommend just watching the sexytimes scene and pretending they found some kitschy themed hotel on their Summer of Love & Fun and picked the Arabian Nights room. I also recommend the scene without the music - bless whomever stripped that scene of music. They are a treasure and gift to fandom.

[lemotomato]

I also find the slo-mo version incredibly hot. Although, Oliver's lightening fast shirt removal in real time is also pretty hot.

I realize I keep using the word "hot,"-- just talking about the obvious, all those candles must have given off serious heat. ;-)

I also recommend the scene in gif format. Zoomed in and in black and white (source x ) :

 

[Chaser]

I think The Fallen is the closest thing I will get to my Mummy AU. Felicity felt very Evy to me too.  There was stuff I had issues with in the Fallen (still don't like the LP, Ra's is still a poor Ra's) but there was a lot to love. The character interactions were spot on. It reminded me how much I love Oliver/Felicity, but it also underlined Oliver/Diggle and Oliver/Thea. Plus the bonus of Felicity with Ra's/Malcolm and Diggle/Maseo. Plus the sword fighting. Like Legit Sword Fighting.

 

Fun times.

[dtissagirl]

That GIF the porn Tumblrs picked up is still my fave:

 

 

Also, 128k notes in a month, well done, porn lovers! http://moan-s.tumblr.com/post/118375689884

[Chaser]

I still love that they let Felicity straddle him and take of her bra. It didn't occur to me at the time but after many rewatchs I realize how even the scene was between them. She made the first move, then he did the standard manly carry move, then went to her on top, then flipped again. I don't know why that gets to me, but I love that it wasn't the normal guy-carries-girl-to-bed-and-lays-on-top.

 

 

That GIF the porn Tumblrs picked up is still my fave:

 

 

Also, 128k notes in a month, well done, porn lovers! http://moan-s.tumblr.com/post/118375689884

I will never not find that hilarious.

[Angel12d]

I remember being slightly concerned that Oliver and Felicity's chemistry might not translate to kissing and sexy times and now I see those gifs and I laugh and laugh at myself for being such a fool because WOW. Their love scene still gets me. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, you can't tell me that was not fun, for both of them.  I feel like that's KC's side of the chemistry problem...she just doesn't seem all that fun to me.  Also kind of humorless.  It doesn't make you a bad person or a skank to enjoy kissing a hot dude for your job, geez. 

[kismet]

It was a very balanced sex scene. Both of them in control at different moments. It felt like a love scene between true partners & not just a random in heat of the moment hook up.

Eta- there is no way that is not a fun day at work. I mean awkward at times I'm sure, but still fun esp with SA & EBR. Gotta agree with most of that Mindy kaling article. Then again Mindy is usually on the mark.

Edited June 25, 2015 by kismet

[GreatAtBoats]

Oh, please. I could empathize with Oliver just fine because of his connections to Thea, Tommy, Moira, Laurel, even his interactions with Diggle, Quentin and Walter. He wasn't completely closed off and his interactions with those characters were more genuine than his early interactions with Felicity.

[dtissagirl]

I was reading the discussion about the bouquet scene in the bloopers, and if I may over-analyse actors for a bit, I get what everyone's doing there. KC is playing Laurel in a good mood, so she just kept the happy vibe once EBR flubbed it.

What i'm more interested in is that Stephen and EBR are being [mildly] adversarial there, with the "is there an open bar?" / "No!" thing going on. In the final scene, the moment Laurel makes the bouquet comment, that's where Oliver's focus goes. Laurel kind of disappears while standing right there, even. The intention of the scene is not adversarial between Oliver and Felicity, but it might have been an interesting vibe to take, as actors, because that stupid bouquet represents the future Oliver threw away, so he has to look at it and woe-is-he at the unfairness of it all. And it's not that Felicity is intentionally rubbing it in his face, but she also kinda is?

Anyway, that little bts scene gives me a good take on how the acting chemistry between Stephen and EBR is built, more than anything KC-related.

Edited June 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

I'm curious re how Oliver expected things to go once he preemptively dumped Felicity in 3.1.  Like did he at least somewhat think she'd wait around?  She hasn't been shown dating at all in 1 or 2, so maybe?  Was he truly surprised that she just walked away and mostly refused to engage with him romantically anymore? 

 

I love JealousOliver and am sincerely bummed that Ray was, IMO, such a colossal fail, because I was actually looking forward to him getting a little competition for her affections, but I can't get in his headspace re what he expected to happen with her.  I mean, you dumped her, dude.  Because she was a distraction.  She's a very pretty, intelligent, caring 25-year-old woman...realistically she'd be getting asked out all the time.   

[Chaser]

I was reading the discussion about the bouquet scene in the bloopers, and if I may over-analyse actors for a bit, I get what everyone's doing there. KC is playing Laurel in a good mood, so she just kept the happy vibe once EBR flubbed it.

What i'm more interested in is that Stephen and EBR are being [mildly] adversarial there, with the "is there an open bar?" / "No!" thing going on. In the final scene, the moment Laurel makes the bouquet comment, that's where Oliver's focus goes. Laurel kind of disappears while standing right there, even. The intention of the scene is not adversarial between Oliver and Felicity, but it might have been an interesting vibe to take, as actors, because that stupid bouquet represents the future Oliver threw away, so he has to look at it and woe-is-he at the unfairness of it all. And it's not that Felicity is intentionally rubbing it in his face, but she also kinda is?

Anyway, that little bts scene gives me a good take on how the acting chemistry between Stephen and EBR is built, more than anything KC-related.

Thank you! That is what made it feel off too me. It's not an insult to KC at all. And like I said, I didn't find her creepy. It was just an odd moment because she was really smiley and SA seemed rather lowkey and the bar comment was delayed. I don't know about EBR since I couldn't tell the tone of the No. But it was just three different vibes in the same shot.

Edited June 25, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Sunshine]

I think Oliver was hoping things would just go back to the way they were pre-date. She would be in the lair helping out so he could be with her without being with her.

[AyChihuahua]

But what did he expect specifically re her romantic life?  Did he just not think past the moment he was in at all?  If Sara hadn't died, would he still have refused to be with her, but be upset with her for not wanting to be single forever?  I mean, especially in S2, she was HOT.  There's just no way she didn't have guys after her.  Was he just not thinking at all?  (Typical for S3 Oliver, I guess, but pretty frustrating.)

[Angel12d]

I think Oliver was hoping things would just go back to the way they were pre-date. She would be in the lair helping out so he could be with her without being with her.

 

I don't know, part of me thinks he hoped she would wait for him, on some level. I think he mostly wanted them to go back to before but deep down, he wanted her to wait. That's why he was so upset about Ray taking her to dinner in 307 (I think), when he was like "Do what you want." I don't know if he realized it though.

[Sunshine]

Like you said, typical S3 Oliver wasn't thinking. If he thought anything it was probably when I die she can find another guy. Between QC & Arrowing, she didn't seem to have a life outside the mission in S2 which is why Barry came as such a shock to him I think.

[Angel12d]

I don't think Oliver was hard to empathize with but his interactions with Felicity definitely brought out a different side to him that I personally hadn't seen yet, in those early moments. 

[Sunshine]

I don't know, part of me thinks he hoped she would wait for him, on some level. I think he mostly wanted them to go back to before but deep down, he wanted her to wait. That's why he was so upset about Ray taking her to dinner in 307 (I think), when he was like "Do what you want." I don't know if he realized it though.

I agree. I think he was hoping they could return to pre-date status when she was still around most of the time. Then, if he ever felt like he could be with someone she would be waiting. Even after 3.07 she was waiting and hoping. She basically told him in 3.12 she was done waiting and attempted to move on in 3.15.

[Chaser]

I think some people have kinda put on some rose-colored glasses to Oliver and Felicity's first interactions (in a way all of S1). That he opened up more or smiled more, things along those lines. And IMO that's not really the case. What stuck me more is just how different he was in those interactions. He wasn't smiley so much as amused, geniunely. Felicity expected nothing really from him. In a way it was a clean and ironically honest slate. For clarification, I say honest because Felicity knew that Oliver was full of it and Oliver knew she did and no one can convince me otherwise. And it was interesting and fun to watch what that did to the character. He was kind to her, he flirted with her, he respected her. He seemed geniune with her. I loved Oliver in those first interactions. So it wasn't so much that he became a completely different character, he just felt more genuinue without the expectations the other characters placed on him.

 

Furthermore, when she was brought into the group his manner changed. We still had some little moments (checking the roots lol). But it was more subdued. It was like once she found out he held himself back. We saw that kind of lighen up going into S2. Almost like he was merging himself. I don't know if I'm explaining this well..

Edited June 25, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Password]

I don't know, part of me thinks he hoped she would wait for him, on some level. I think he mostly wanted them to go back to before but deep down, he wanted her to wait. That's why he was so upset about Ray taking her to dinner in 307 (I think), when he was like "Do what you want." I don't know if he realized it though.

I agree. He even said he's upset that Felicity is moving on. As if he thought she wouldn't.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't really remember him flirting with her in S1.  Agree that he was amused by her, but I don't remember him actually flirting with her really at all.  I definitely don't think he was in love with her or anything way back then.  I think he liked her, respected her, and found her useful.  Personally I think he started seriously wanting to bang her during the "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen" scene, started having feelings in the next episode or two, got an inkling that he could have genuine feelings in Russia (because dude is NOT in touch with his feelings, he probably just felt uncomfortable and didn't know why), fell for real over basically the rest of the season, and realized he was in love with her during the "I know two things" scene.  Whenever I watch that last scene, he does a little movement, like a "huh" body movement, not as a question, but as a statement/realization, after the "second thing."

[dtissagirl]

Oh, please. I could empathize with Oliver just fine because of his connections to Thea, Tommy, Moira, Laurel, even his interactions with Diggle, Quentin and Walter. He wasn't completely closed off and his interactions with those characters were more genuine than his early interactions with Felicity.

I'm someone who has a real hard time emphasizing with male characters if I can't 'ship them. I couldn't 'ship Oliver with anyone until Felicity. When they clicked, I clicked with Oliver. It's how I'm wired. Mileages, they vary.

Edited June 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

Oliver risked the entire city to save Thea's life.  He has EXTREMELY strong connections to specific people.  I 100% agree with you...he wouldn't even hesitate to put strangers' lives in danger to save Felicity.  He'd try to find a way to save everyone, just like Felicity did, but if he had absolutely no choice he'd save Felicity.  He'd manpain and brood about it forever after, but he'd do it without hesitation.

In a way they truly did mirror each other this season. Oliver choose Arrow over Felicity (Life). In turn, Felicity choose life over Oliver. In the end, Oliver realized he needed to live and that meant being with Felicity. And Felicity realized it wasn't a life she wanted if Oliver wasn't in it.

I don't really remember him flirting with her in S1.  Agree that he was amused by her, but I don't remember him actually flirting with her really at all.  I definitely don't think he was in love with her or anything way back then.  I think he liked her, respected her, and found her useful.  Personally I think he started seriously wanting to bang her during the "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen" scene, started having feelings in the next episode or two, got an inkling that he could have genuine feelings in Russia (because dude is NOT in touch with his feelings, he probably just felt uncomfortable and didn't know why), fell for real over basically the rest of the season, and realized he was in love with her during the "I know two things" scene.  Whenever I watch that last scene, he does a little movement, like a "huh" body movement, not as a question, but as a statement/realization, after the "second thing."

See I found him flirty with the "Does that mean that you missed me?" And the way he gazed at her for a moment when he walked into the tech room was something...more. I don't know that look just got to me.

Edited June 25, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Chaser]

I need a relationship to connect me to a character, but it doesn't have to be romantic. Buffy and the Scoobies, the Gilmore Girls, when I watched TVD I didn't connect with Stefan until S2 and his friendship with Caroline.

 

On Arrow, it's Oliver/Diggle and Oliver/Felicity. But Oliver/Diggle wouldn't have been enough for me to hold onto because I found Oliver intolerable around Laurel.

[dtissagirl]

Thank you! That is what made it feel off too me. It's not an insult to KC at all. And like I said, I didn't find her creepy. It was just an odd moment because she was really smiley and SA seemed rather lowkey and the bar comment was delayed. I don't know about EBR since I couldn't tell the tone of the No. But it was just three different vibes in the same shot.

 

Yeah, that's what I got too, everyone in a different headspace. I actually find the finished scene a ten ton truck of awkward, because Laurel is just standing there basking in her post-training with Nyssa high, while there's so many things unsaid going on between Oliver and Felicity. And the goddamn stupid bouquet being all LOOK AT ME IN THE ROLE OF ~SYMBOLISM. But I'm good with the off camera vibe.

[dtissagirl]

I don't buy into the Oliver never smiled before Felicity thing, but one thing I like about the way he smiled at her is that it felt unburdened. Even before 114, he was hiding his secret life from her just as he was from everyone but Diggle, but there were two things going on for Felicity there, that Oliver didn't get from the people who knew him pre-island:

 

1. She was a stranger, so hiding the vigilante-ing from her didn't affect Oliver the same way keeping secrets from his friends and family did;

2. She knew he was full of it, and he knew she knew he was full of it, and she knew he knew she knew he was full of it. <insert Joey Tribbiani freakout here>

 

Which is what made me easily view the internal-to-the-character reasons why Oliver kept going back to her. The external reason is that the show needed Felicity to be Oliver's computer expert, but why did he keep going back to her? Because here's a super cute girl who makes him smile and seems to see right through his bullshit. I completely buy it, that that was irresistible to Oliver.

[dtissagirl]

I 'ship, therefore I am = my life motto.

[wonderwall]

I'm the same way. I quit Arrow because Digg/Oliver's relationship (as much as I loved their dynamic) wasn't enough for me. I only came back because there was something to look forward to when Felicity came in and became a part of the team. It was a great dynamic and still is. But what takes the cake for me is the relationship with Oliver/Felicity. It worked and I happened to look forward to their interactions every week. It's what made me a dedicated viewer.

 

Over on the flash, I think what kept me watching that show was Barry/Joe. But it's not enough for me to keep watching it. I'm not nearly as interested in Westallen or Snowbarry or Team Flash or Cisco/Barry... I don't know something just wasn't clicking. And then they killed off Eddie (my favorite character) so yeah it was easy to leave the show. 

 

I, too need a relationship (platonic or romantic) to keep me connected to a show. Relationships are super important which is why I smh at anyone who just wants this to be a superficial show about masked men/women kicking ass. 

[dtissagirl]

The interesting thing that happens to me is that I only need to 'ship het dudebros to get invested. Women-centered stories, LGBT stories, they don't need romance for me to love them and connect deeply with them. It's only the het guys that I can't connect with unless I see them through the eyes of a love interest character that I can connect with.

Edited June 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[wingster55]

I easily empathized with Oliver and dug his relationships with all regulars in s1. Well except Laurel, but that didn't bother me...a great deal.

[olicityfan25]

I connected to Oliver through Moira, Thea and Tommy. Laurel was always a sore spot. She never looked glad for him to be alive. She only used him/the vigilante for her gain.

Whereas with Moira, Thea and Tommy you could see they really missed him. Even with all his antics from before.

Felicity showed more emotion for him than Laurel in my opinion. Comedy is widely used when something bad has occurred to the protagonist. It's no wonder they kept giving her screentime before 1x03 aired because they knew what they saw was instant chemistry. They had never experienced that before on the show with Oliver and a female character IMO.

The only time I saw a little bit of spark with McKenna, was the kissing scene on the bed. With Felicity, they were having chemistry from the get go because she was involved in his crusade from the moment he meant her. That's why Oliver and Felicity work so well. Same with Diggle.

[Password]

I don't think Oliver and Laurel were given any chance to connect because of their terrible back story. If I were in her place I'd be civil but never ever want to be in his company.

Oliver just acted like there were no burdens on his shoulders around Felicity. It was refreshing.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Password

[Carrie Ann]

I had no problem empathizing with Oliver in S1--I had a much harder time empathizing with all the people from his old life, who, for a time, were either unhappy with him or trying to slot him back into his old life/old self. I'm not saying they didn't have reason, but given that we as viewers were privy to the new/real Oliver, and what he'd been through, it put my hackles up anytime someone went in on him for "Ollie's" actions, or for not being what they needed him to be. Just an instinctive reaction that actually made me more sympathetic to Oliver.

 

So I didn't connect with any of his pre-island relationships until later in the season (Moira and Thea especially), where I felt the click between Oliver and Dig immediately. That got me through S1, and OTA really sucked me in in S2.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

In a way they truly did mirror each other this season. Oliver choose Arrow over Felicity (Life). In turn, Felicity choose life over Oliver. In the end, Oliver realized he needed to live and that meant being with Felicity. And Felicity realized it wasn't a life she wanted if Oliver wasn't in it.

See I found him flirty with the "Does that mean that you missed me?" And the way he gazed at her for a moment when he walked into the tech room was something...more. I don't know that look just got to me.

Good call, that was a bit flirty.  I'm not sure about the gazing, because she didn't see it, but the comment was flirty.  Can you think of any others?

 

As an aside, SA has a couple habits as Oliver that I like.  One is that when he ends a conversation and then wants to add something to it, he physically returns.  The best examples are after Felicity tells him she's Jewish (he's halfway out the door, but he turns back around and takes a step back towards her to say Happy Hanukkah), and when he's storming out of the courthouse to save Felicity from the Count (he takes several steps back toward Thea to say he's sorry but he has to leave).  It's a quirk I really like, because it is consistent with how intense he is in relationships, all kinds of relationships.

 

Another aside (I've been rewatching S2 a lot now that everything's on summer hiatus), I loved that he stayed with Felicity after the Dollmaker threw her down and she hit her head.  In S1 when Moira hit her head after Helena shot at that mobster, Oliver took off running after Helena, leaving Moira on the sidewalk alone.  But when Felicity hit her head, he stayed with her until Digg got there, letting Quentin go after the Dollmaker without him momentarily.  I'm not saying he cared more about Felicity than Moira...I'm saying that is a good indicator that he's growing back into a real boy (assuming the writers did it on purpose, and with these idiots you never know).

 

They really, really should not have waited until S3 to do this whole identity bs theme.  It was too late in the game.  By the third season heroes should be pretty well-established as heroes.  All this "who am I" crap is much more of a first or second season thing (and they touched on it in 2.2, an episode literally titled "Identity").  It caused such a rollback of all his real-boy progress.

Edited June 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

You know, Oliver was sort of flirty with Felicity in the beginning ('you are remarkable', tapping her shoulder with his index finger, the scene at BBB before Oliver sensed that being flirty was not going to fly with Felicity), but I think it's because he wanted to keep up his 'Ollie' reputation. He got less flirty with Felicity after she was introduced to the foundry. And at that point, I think her relationship with Oliver changed. He started to take her more seriously, became less flirty, more intense with the small touches (because that's when they started to mean something), etc. 

[Chaser]

Good call, that was a bit flirty.  Can you think of any others?

That was the only one that really stood out as flirting to me. I totally raised an eyebrow at that. "Did you want her to miss you Oliver?"

[AyChihuahua]

I had no problem empathizing with Oliver in S1--I had a much harder time empathizing with all the people from his old life, who, for a time, were either unhappy with him or trying to slot him back into his old life/old self. I'm not saying they didn't have reason, but given that we as viewers were privy to the new/real Oliver, and what he'd been through, it put my hackles up anytime someone went in on him for "Ollie's" actions, or for not being what they needed him to be. Just an instinctive reaction that actually made me more sympathetic to Oliver.

 

So I didn't connect with any of his pre-island relationships until later in the season (Moira and Thea especially), where I felt the click between Oliver and Dig immediately. That got me through S1, and OTA really sucked me in in S2.

I'm totally with you.  It drove me batcrap crazy that they were all pushing for him to talktalktalk about crap that happened to him, and/or immediately go back to being the guy he had been.  Even if he had truly been alone on an island for five years, no bad guys, no Hong Kong or Russia, he'd be screwed up and a very different person.  Castaway did an excellent job showing that.  I HATED Thea.  She wasn't just a brat, she was a total hypocrite.  Kept getting after him for having changed, but he wasn't supposed to react at all to how she'd changed.  (Loved the actress, though, and quite like Thea now.)

[BkWurm1]

I'm totally with you.  It drove me batcrap crazy that they were all pushing for him to talktalktalk about crap that happened to him, and/or immediately go back to being the guy he had been.  Even if he had truly been alone on an island for five years, no bad guys, no Hong Kong or Russia, he'd be screwed up and a very different person.  Castaway did an excellent job showing that.  I HATED Thea.  She wasn't just a brat, she was a total hypocrite.  Kept getting after him for having changed, but he wasn't supposed to react at all to how she'd changed.  (Loved the actress, though, and quite like Thea now.)

It's funny how different a reaction someone can have.  I LOVED Thea and my heart just ached for her in how much she needed Oliver back and he was there but he was still not there for her.  At least when she thought he was dead she had the solace of talking to his headstone, now he was alive and he kept running and she had less than nothing.  I wasn't mad at Oliver for not being able to open up to her but that was my turning point against Laurel, when Thea begged Oliver to open up and he went to the one person who could have cheerfully sent him back to sink with the boat when she found out he was alive -  I was beyond pissed.  Fair or not, I hated Laurel after that. 

 

I mean ice cream.  He took her fricking ice cream.  If anything a brother and sister should have been bonding over, it should have been over a bowl of ice cream.   Even during a rewatch of season one I was still fooled, thinking maybe I'd forgotten how it had gone down, but nope, disappointed again. 

 

I think I hated Laurel because even then so early in the show it was obvious to me that Oliver was wasting his time on a pointless relationship AND she didn't need him like Thea did. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

That's a worthwhile perspective.  I like Willa Holland quite a lot, so I can kind of see that.  I think it would have worked a little better for me if she was younger than 17.  I started to like her around the first mid-season finale, and it stuck once she met Roy.  So I really only hated her for a few episodes.  

 

Totally agree re Laurel.  Don't at all understand why they made her so totally hateful to Oliver in the beginning.  For me, that killed their epic love even more than the sister thing, honestly.  Basically the first thing she said to him was that she wished he'd stayed dead, for goodness' sake.  I don't know why they had her be that cruel.  I'd think she'd be happy he was alive, but not able to forgive him and not interested in seeing him.  All he really did was cheat on her with her sister...totally gross, but not worth the death penalty.  

[quarks]

I always thought that the idea of Thea was to show the audience just how much Oliver's absence had affected things back in Starling City. Moira was lying to everyone; Diggle, Walter, Joanna and Quentin's partner didn't really know Oliver well; Tommy was carrying around a lot of guilt because he had slept with Laurel in the meantime; and Laurel and Quentin were justifiably pissed off.  We got a hint in the few of the early episodes, back when Arrow could still afford to hire a lot of extras (sigh, remember those days?) and when McKenna later showed up that pre-island Oliver had numerous friends and acquaintances that the show didn't have time to put on screen. We also got a hint much later, in Flash, that Oliver's disappearance had at least some emotional impact on the woman that Arrow refuses to name probably just to irritate me. Thea's pain and anger sorta worked to stand in for all of those people - though presumably, based on McKenna's reaction, they'd mostly moved on, while Thea had struggled a lot more. Oliver's refusal to open up to Thea helped explain why we weren't seeing most of those supposed friends, except when Oliver wanted to throw a huge party to establish an alibi. It also helped show us just how damaged Oliver was.

 

It doesn't at all explain why Oliver thought it would be a great idea to let Malcolm Merlyn, the ultimate cause of all of this, sleep on Thea's couch, but I think at this point I'm just going to have to accept that I'm never going to get a justifiable explanation for that decision.

[BkWurm1]

Before Felicity walked into Oliver Queen’s life, he was a character that was hard to empathize with. Yes, he had just returned from an unspeakable five years of hell, but it was hard to connect to a character that was so closed off at all times. But Felicity, in her small early season 1 appearances, was able to bring out the Oliver Queen that we as an audience had been waiting for. You can have all the action you want, but if you don’t care about the characters then what’s the point?

 

Only just saw this.  It's not that I didn't empathize with him, I did, I just was not invested in anything to do with him long term until Felicity showed up.   There was no pleasure in watching.  Even his wins felt like losses.  I was really ready to quit the show and then in the same episode Felicity showed up AND Diggle found out.   Without both of those things, I think I would have quit.  I had at that point watched the Pilot and then let a bunch of episodes pile up.   I watched the second episode and was this close to deleting the rest.  But, mostly because I didn't have anything better to do, I watched the third and after Felicity showed up, I literally paused the episode and looked up whether it was a one off appearance or not and lucky for me, she'd just been picked up for the rest of the season, I did a fist pump, did another when Diggle found out, and never stopped watching. 

[wingster55]

That's...just so odd to me. Mainly because I never quit a show before the (at the earliest) mid-way point of the first season. I believe it just needs time to grow and find its identity.