Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

39 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The thing I don't like about Oliver's behavior after they broke up is that he didn't try to be there for her as a friend. I understand it isn't easy to find the right way to be there for an ex but they kept working together and relying on each other and Felicity does it, she showed him support even in ep 20 that was shortly after they broke up. She has been through so much that I would have liked to see him asking if she was doing fine or be shown worrying about her. I think we didn't see this in 5A because as MG said they wanted to tell other stories than Olicity and the writers don't have a great track record at showing how the relationships between the characters develop..also I think having SA and EBR share emotional scenes together, even if meant as platonic, was probably going to overshadow what they were trying to sell with Oliver/Susan.

Upvoting this x100.  And very much of what she's been through has been because of working with him for 4  years.

I believe MG did want to tell other stories, specifically setting up all the n00bs and Oliver/Susan, but he also failed to realized how bizarrely Oliver and Felicity's non-relationship would be read by the audience, especially since we didn't get any reason for why Oliver went from telling Felicity that she is his always to not noticing that she was having a really bad time.

Oliver/Anatoly much less Oliver/Diggle overshadows what they were trying to sell with Oliver/Susan.

One of the things I hate about the Oliver/Susan relationship is that is started at the exact point when Oliver killed Billy, ending Felicity's relationship.  Cognitively it reads like very bad and obvious plotting but emotionally it reads like Oliver knew that he had hurt Felicity badly so he deliberately left her alone (abandoned not just in the moment but for months afterwards) and sought to make himself feel better in the arms of another woman.  It was totally the wrong time to move on to another relationship.

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The feeling I get is that Oliver still doesn't believe he deserves Felicity and thinks in Billy she found a better guy not realizing what Felicity had with Billy wasn't meaningful at all. It was weird how when he found out she was seeing him he told her he wants her to be happy and that he has to move on as well basically assuming that was it for them, even if imo she was clearly giving signals she wasn't so sure about that. It's like he doesn't believe he can be her first choice even if all her actions are saying that he is.

It's the flip of seasons 1 and 2 when Felicity didn't believe she was good enough for Oliver. I want to know if there are still some of those feelings left.

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, leopardprint said:

But wasn't this directly addressed in 406? (LOL, I just expected continuity from Arrow) Also, the breakup is mostly his fault so I guess I see his guilt as rational. I buy he feels he had no right to fight for her because he messed up but he didn't seem to have issues of worthiness with Susan. He even had the reason of a target on his back to not date her and according to the show, he dated her because he was lonely so he used her to boost his self-esteem? Wow, I finally managed to make myself feel bad for Susan. 

Hold on, that was was a momentary lapse, I'm over it.

 

As touching as that conversation in 406 was, it was one conversation. The kind of issues Oliver has can't be solved that quickly, even with the power of one true love. It's a slow, slow process that requires repeated reinforcement from friends and loved ones. And even when everyone around you tells you again and again(Which isn't necessarily the kind of support Oliver has received since he came back from the island.) that you are a good person, you are worth while, all it takes to set you back is making one mistake (And no one has figured out yet how to live your life without making mistakes.) or even just an unlucky event that you have no control over. 

Oliver might have fooled himself into thinking that Felicity made everything better, but she didn't. She just made him so happy that he was able to bury all that self hate for a little while. When she broke up with him, he probably felt like a fool. Not because of anything Felicity did, but because he let himself believe that his life wasn't going to crash and burn for once. After all, why would genius, loving, warm, loyal, strong Felicity want to spend the rest of her life with him? He's a pathetic loser who lost him home, his money, and his family's company. Who was living in a basement, and sleeping on a bed that she had to buy him. Who couldn't even manage to keep anyone he loved alive unless it was so he could ruin their lives with his mere existence. What did he offer her? A home cooked meal and a scar covered body to have sex with? She probably didn't even like his cooking that much. 

I imagine some variation of those last few sentences has gone through his mind more than once. It can't have helped that, yeah, that break up was objectively his fault  

Oliver reminds me of a girl I met in college. She hasn't been through a fraction of what Oliver has, but the combination of a terrible father, a mother who didn't stand up for herself, and possibly a naturally pessimistic temperament ended up turning her into a smart, loving, pretty, funny girl who saw herself as none of those things. It hurt to hear the things she would call herself. Dumb, ugly, worthless. She constantly put herself down. It didn't matter how much her friends told her otherwise, every time something went the least bit wrong in her life, no matter how small, she turned that failure in on herself. Sometimes she would just explode into these diatribes directed at herself. The worst part, for me, was hearing her constantly say how she should have known she would have screwed this up. It was like her pride in herself had been beaten down to the point where she was just...defeated. Even when good things were happening to her, she would make comments about how she would probably screw it up. 

Not to say that being around her was a constant struggle. She's a wonderful person, and I love her dearly. There were times when she seemed to almost forget to hate herself, and they were beautiful. So, even though being her friend was, and sometimes still is, incredibly frustrating, we kept loving her and doing the best we could to show her that we loved her. We gave her her pretty constant affection and affirmation throughout, but I know that after four years she still kind of expected all of her friends to abandon her once we weren't required to be physically near her. It's been 12 years since I met her, and she has come a long way, but I think she still doesn't feel completely good about herself. The hardest part of being her friend is knowing that as much as I love her, she's the one who has to put all the work into making herself better, even though she wasn't the one who did the damage in the first place. 

All of that is to say that while it is frustrating to see this play out on TV, I understand why Oliver has to keep relearning his lessons. I think I just typed myself into being ok with how they did the breakup? Damn it. 

Wait, no. No, I'm still not ok with it, but at least now I can accept that Oliver wasn't acting totally out of character in season four. Season five remains to be seen. 

As for Susan. People make mistakes. Sometimes they make mistakes that don't make any sense. I can accept that Oliver makes mistakes, and I can accept that sometimes he chooses to date women who are not good people. Helena was not a good person. Little miss I'll tell you your kid died, then act all pissy that you found out I lied and went a relationship with him, then tell you not to tell anyone about him, then not tell you he's been kidnapped until Barry Allen makes me is not a good person. It's my opinion that Laurel was not a good person to Oliver, and that Sara was not a good person to Laurel on any of the occasions that she was with Oliver. The detective from season one seemed to be a good person, but it was a bad idea for Oliver to date her. Shado and Felicity are really exceptions when it comes to Oliver's dating history, and Shado was a unique situation. 

And also, people aren't good at being lonely. Even when you think the rest of the world is better off without you, it's hard not to reach out to someone. Especially for someone like Oliver who, despite everything, rarely gives up. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Hiveminder
Added that last sentence.

[insomniadreams88]

One of the problems with O/F's breakup is that it's also been played, at times at least, that Oliver got everyone in the breakup, at least emotionally. Yes, they're all still friends, but we haven't seen anyone else really be there emotionally for Felicity. No POV for her last year with the breakup. No one checking on her this year with everything that's happened to her. Imagine if Rory hadn't been around ... 

So fine, they could've downplayed Oliver and Felicity even though it makes it look like she can be there for him when they're not together but he can't be there for her, but we haven't gotten a reason why no one else is there for her or checking on her. 

[kismet]

5 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I loved the deleted kiss even more than the official first one. I'm glad it was cut because even if Oliver had real feelings for Felicity they were executing a plan but the rest was pretty perfect for me. I love that he was in the arrow suit but without his hood and mask, that he waited for her to decide to kiss him and the way she grabbed his arm. Also SA had a buzz cut for the official kiss that makes him look less attractive to me so that's another very shallow reason for my preference for the deleted one, LOL.

I prefer the official first kiss better, for me I thought it had more emotion to it than the deleted one. Perhaps a lot of that had to do with them not being on a mission. I didn't also like the idea that a kiss of that importance could be tarnished by the possibility that it was all part of a plan and not necessarily true. And it left me wanting more. An almost kiss is perfect canon moment for a couple like O/F.

But I do love the way you describe the deleted one, I would want a kiss like that. Now if only they could give us that kiss sometime soon. And I will say I'm a little perturbed that we have yet to have a romantic Arrow Suit kiss. SO I would say that the deleted kiss was good in the regards it gave us an Arrow suit kiss, I'm glad we got to see it - but very happy its not canon because I did not like the specifics around the deleted kiss.

[kismet]

42 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

All of that is to say that while it is frustrating to see this play out on TV, I understand why Oliver has to keep relearning his lessons. I think I just typed myself into being ok with how they did the breakup? Damn it. 

Wait, no. No, I'm still not ok with it, but at least now I can accept that Oliver wasn't acting totally out of character in season four. Season five remains to be seen. 

As for Susan. People make mistakes. Sometimes they make mistakes that don't make any sense. I can accept that Oliver makes mistakes, and I can accept that sometimes he chooses to date women who are not good people. Helena was not a good person. Little miss I'll tell you your kid died, then act all pissy that you found out I lied and went a relationship with him, then tell you not to tell anyone about him, then not tell you he's been kidnapped until Barry Allen makes me is not a good person. It's my opinion that Laurel was not a good person to Oliver, and that Sara was not a good person to Laurel on any of the occasions that she was with Oliver. The detective from season one seemed to be a good person, but it was a bad idea for Oliver to date her. Shado and Felicity are really exceptions when it comes to Oliver's dating history, and Shado was a unique situation. 

And also, people aren't good at being lonely. Even when you think the rest of the world is better off without you, it's hard not to reach out to someone. 

Loved all of your post. It's why OQ is still my favorite character because I see this struggle. I'm still not ok with how they handled the break-up. Because, I think they could have gone a more character driven route and shown that perhaps there was some self-doubt and self-hate that is fueling the reason OQ is not pursuing or fighting for FS. I also respected that OQ stayed away after FS requested it. I want the couple to reunite, but I want it to be a mutual decision. I think OQ & FS both know that they love each other. That was never the problem, it was OQ not really being able to navigate some of the more challenging aspects of a relationship. However, I would have preferred in s4 rather than seeing a useless Susan relationship, we had seen OQ have some of these revelations about his self-worth and his previous relationships. It would have actually dovetailed nicely with what Prometheus was doing.

Billy was boring, but he never bothered me because it made sense that FS would move on quickly. I also don't think the relationship was all that deep or important on FS's side. Susan bothered me because it made little sense of OQ to pursue a relationship. OQ to sleep around or have trivial relationships perhaps. But for the writers to tell me there was some deep mutual love or respect between OQ & Susan is just bullocks.

It takes a lot of self-restraint to not reach out to anyone when you think the world is better off without you. It's lonely, but I do think someone like OQ has been shown to thrive in loneliness - even if it ruins his relationships. It doesn't surprise me that we have him in this place after 5 years. Even if there had never been BMD, O/F breaking up somewhere in s4 would have been believable because of either OQ or FS. What does disappoint me is that they have taken rather cheap & easy routes out of the storylines, when there actually is some deep emotional material they could have pursued. It's been rather shallow & predictable writing, with almost no in-show character development. I can create a deeper journey for him, but it because of my effort not the writers'

However, the biggest problem is that while I see OQ emotional struggles and can empathize with him. The show & writing has done a pretty crappy job these last 2.5 seasons with showing any of this. I think the writing has been rather piss poor. I have to do most of the character analysis and work to get to the point that I see OQ as more than just some paper doll being dressed and put in weekly doll shows by the writers. I wasn't joking a few months ago when I think the writers treat the characters like Barbie dolls. They are all living breathing Williams playing weekly doll shows with very little awareness of what is going on around them.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

Loved all of your post. It's why OQ is still my favorite character because I see this struggle. I'm still not ok with how they handled the break-up. Because, I think they could have gone a more character driven route and shown that perhaps there was some self-doubt and self-hate that is fueling the reason OQ is not pursuing or fighting for FS. I also respected that OQ stayed away after FS requested it. I want the couple to reunite, but I want it to be a mutual decision. I think OQ & FS both know that they love each other. That was never the problem, it was OQ not really being able to navigate some of the more challenging aspects of a relationship. However, I would have preferred in s4 rather than seeing a useless Susan relationship, we had seen OQ have some of these revelations about his self-worth and his previous relationships. It would have actually dovetailed nicely with what Prometheus was doing.

Billy was boring, but he never bothered me because it made sense that FS would move on quickly. I also don't think the relationship was all that deep or important on FS's side. Susan bothered me because it made little sense of OQ to pursue a relationship. OQ to sleep around or have trivial relationships perhaps. But for the writers to tell me there was some deep mutual love or respect between OQ & Susan is just bullocks.

It takes a lot of self-restraint to not reach out to anyone when you think the world is better off without you. It's lonely, but I do think someone like OQ has been shown to thrive in loneliness - even if it ruins his relationships. It doesn't surprise me that we have him in this place after 5 years. Even if there had never been BMD, O/F breaking up somewhere in s4 would have been believable because of either OQ or FS. What does disappoint me is that they have taken rather cheap & easy routes out of the storylines, when there actually is some deep emotional material they could have pursued. It's been rather shallow & predictable writing, with almost no in-show character development. I can create a deeper journey for him, but it because of my effort not the writers'

However, the biggest problem is that while I see OQ emotional struggles and can empathize with him. The show & writing has done a pretty crappy job these last 2.5 seasons with showing any of this. I think the writing has been rather piss poor. I have to do most of the character analysis and work to get to the point that I see OQ as more than just some paper doll being dressed and put in weekly doll shows by the writers. I wasn't joking a few months ago when I think the writers treat the characters like Barbie dolls. They are all living breathing Williams playing weekly doll shows with very little awareness of what is going on around them.

Oliver is very good at making his loneliness work for him and turning it into something useful, but I would hesitate to say he thrives in loneliness. 

But yes to everything else you said. It sucks that we have to do half the writers' work ourselves. I don't want to be spoon fed character motivations, but I would like it if it didn't take me a years worth of pondering to make sense of the show. 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

Oliver might have fooled himself into thinking that Felicity made everything better, but she didn't. She just made him so happy that he was able to bury all that self hate for a little while. When she broke up with him, he probably felt like a fool. Not because of anything Felicity did, but because he let himself believe that his life wasn't going to crash and burn for once. After all, why would genius, loving, warm, loyal, strong Felicity want to spend the rest of her life with him? He's a pathetic loser who lost him home, his money, and his family's company. Who was living in a basement, and sleeping on a bed that she had to buy him. Who couldn't even manage to keep anyone he loved alive unless it was so he could ruin their lives with his mere existence. What did he offer her? A home cooked meal and a scar covered body to have sex with? She probably didn't even like his cooking that much.

Well that explains why Oliver got into a relationship with Susan (she's the one who pushed it), and maybe why he's still living in the bunker because he thinks he doesn't deserve better.  It doesn't explain why she never asked to see his place though.

 

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

Oliver reminds me of a girl I met in college. She hasn't been through a fraction of what Oliver has, but the combination of a terrible father, a mother who didn't stand up for herself, and possibly a naturally pessimistic temperament ended up turning her into a smart, loving, pretty, funny girl who saw herself as none of those things. It hurt to hear the things she would call herself. Dumb, ugly, worthless. She constantly put herself down. It didn't matter how much her friends told her otherwise, every time something went the least bit wrong in her life, no matter how small, she turned that failure in on herself. Sometimes she would just explode into these diatribes directed at herself. The worst part, for me, was hearing her constantly say how she should have known she would have screwed this up. It was like her pride in herself had been beaten down to the point where she was just...defeated. Even when good things were happening to her, she would make comments about how she would probably screw it up.

Sadly that's more common than most people think.  It doesn't even take abusive parents.  I work with people who have ADHD and years of being excluded because of social awkwardness and failing assignments either because you didn't get it done or didn't do the right thing because you didn't understand the instructions can affect people deeply. 

In Oliver's case though I think I would attribute it to the first two years on the island.  From what we saw of Robert and Moira, they were too indulgent rather than too little.

[kismet]

17 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Oliver is very good at making his loneliness work for him and turning it into something useful, but I would hesitate to say he thrives in loneliness.

Thriving might have been an overstatement. My point was that he is energized by his loneliness in ways other people are not.

[Hiveminder]

18 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Well that explains why Oliver got into a relationship with Susan (she's the one who pushed it), and maybe why he's still living in the bunker because he thinks he doesn't deserve better.  It doesn't explain why she never asked to see his place though.

 

Sadly that's more common than most people think.  It doesn't even take abusive parents.  I work with people who have ADHD and years of being excluded because of social awkwardness and failing assignments either because you didn't get it done or didn't do the right thing because you didn't understand the instructions can affect people deeply. 

In Oliver's case though I think I would attribute it to the first two years on the island.  From what we saw of Robert and Moira, they were too indulgent rather than too little.

I think it's possible that Oliver realized he wasn't a very good person before the island and didn't think very highly of himself. Which would have made Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver even worse. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I think it's possible that Oliver realized he wasn't a very good person before the island and didn't think very highly of himself. Which would have made Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver even worse. 

Yeah, i  got a sense of Oliver facing what kind of person he'd become when he found out that Samantha was pregnant and he was freaking out.  But his self awareness was more in that moment when he found out that he wasn't going to be a father.  It was like while he thought he was going to be forced to step up, he thought (even if it was just a small voice in his brain) maybe I can do this, but after he was told she lost the baby, he grieved but also suddenly was sure he'd have screwed everything up anyway.  

That Moira really never had any faith in Oliver to be able to rise to the occasion, that's one of the things I'll always hold against her.  

[Hiveminder]

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, i  got a sense of Oliver facing what kind of person he'd become when he found out that Samantha was pregnant and he was freaking out.  But his self awareness was more in that moment when he found out that he wasn't going to be a father.  It was like while he thought he was going to be forced to step up, he thought (even if it was just a small voice in his brain) maybe I can do this, but after he was told she lost the baby, he grieved but also suddenly was sure he'd have screwed everything up anyway.  

That Moira really never had any faith in Oliver to be able to rise to the occasion, that's one of the things I'll always hold against her.  

She was a great character, but I've never been able to like Moira. Part of that was because of the way she treated Oliver and Thea. She obviously loved them very much, but she didn't seem to think very highly of them, and I think they could tell. 

I've always wondered about Oliver and Robert's relationship. I wish there had been more exploration of Oliver's anger towards him other than a few brief comments in season one. 

[statsgirl]

32 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That Moira really never had any faith in Oliver to be able to rise to the occasion, that's one of the things I'll always hold against her.  

I didn't get the feeling that she thought that Oliver would not be able to rise to the occasion but that she knew that it was very difficult and she didn't want him to go through that hardship.  For whatever reason, maybe because Robert was having affairs and she couldn't count on him and she didn't have any work as far as we could see, she invested everything she had into  her children.

She went to extremes to over-protect them, wrapping them in cotton wool and keeping them from the consequences of their actions (Oliver dropping out of school and getting Samantha pregnant; Thea doing drugs and breaking into a store).  It was actually Oliver when he returned in s1 who told her that she had to discipline Thea more.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I didn't get the feeling that she thought that Oliver would not be able to rise to the occasion but that she knew that it was very difficult and she didn't want him to go through that hardship.  For whatever reason, maybe because Robert was having affairs and she couldn't count on him and she didn't have any work as far as we could see, she invested everything she had into  her children.

She went to extremes to over-protect them, wrapping them in cotton wool and keeping them from the consequences of their actions (Oliver dropping out of school and getting Samantha pregnant; Thea doing drugs and breaking into a store).  It was actually Oliver when he returned in s1 who told her that she had to discipline Thea more.

Yeah, I know I'm putting my own spin on it a bit but what Moira saw as helping and protecting and making his life easier, I do see as her ultimately not believing her children are up to facing the tough moments.  Likely that never crosses her mind, but her actions seemed to say she thought she needed to step in and make their problems go away, not just that she wanted to.      

[statsgirl]

I think that's true, that she did need to step in and make their problems go away.  But she needed to for her sake, to make herself relevant because she had nothing else in her life that made her important, rather than for their sakes because she thought they couldn't handle things.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think that's true, that she did need to step in and make their problems go away.  But she needed to for her sake, to make herself relevant because she had nothing else in her life that made her important, rather than for their sakes because she thought they couldn't handle things.

I think it was probably really to make herself feel needed, but she convinced herself it was because they needed her to handle things. Whatever her motivations, the message to Oliver and Thea was that Moira didn't trust them to be capable of handling their own shit. 

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think that's true, that she did need to step in and make their problems go away.  But she needed to for her sake, to make herself relevant because she had nothing else in her life that made her important, rather than for their sakes because she thought they couldn't handle things.

I get the distinction and at the same time see it as two sides of the same coin. She may not have consciously known what she was doing but I still hold it against her.  

[statsgirl]

We'll never know because I doubt anyone working on the show has thought much about it, but I'd replace "Moira didn't trust them to be capable of handling their own shit" with "they knew they would never have to be responsible for handling their own shit" *

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I think it's possible that Oliver realized he wasn't a very good person before the island and didn't think very highly of himself. Which would have made Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver even worse. 

Maybe.  But I never saw anything implying that Oliver didn't think highly of himself. The opposite rather -- that he could get any woman he wanted and he could get out of any situation that was a bother for him.  Never saw him with the least guilt for how he treated Laurel.  The only indication of a bit of self-awareness was when he heard his baby had died.

Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver was a huge message of "I  have faith in you that you are a better person than I am and you can handle this task".

*(Or maybe I just know too many narcissists)

Edited April 8, 2017 by statsgirl

[Hiveminder]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

We'll never know because I doubt anyone working on the show has thought much about it, but I'd replace "Moira didn't trust them to be capable of handling their own shit" with "they knew they would never have to be responsible for handling their own shit" *

Maybe.  But I never saw anything implying that Oliver didn't think highly of himself. The opposite rather -- that he could get any woman he wanted and he could get out of any situation that was a bother for him.  Never saw him with the least guilt for how he treated Laurel.  The only indication of a bit of self-awareness was when he heard his baby had died.

Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver was a huge message of "I  have faith in you that you are a better person than I am and you can handle this task".

*(Or maybe I just know too many narcissists)

It could be that Moira sent both of those messages to her kids. In any case, a parent who tries to solve their children's problems instead of teaching them how to solve their problems themselves is handicapping their children. 

I don't think we've seen enough of pre-island Oliver to say how he felt about himself for sure. I just think it's possible that Oliver knew he was kind of shitty, even if just subconsciously. 

[leopardprint]

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Robert sacrificing himself for Oliver was a huge message of "I  have faith in you that you are a better person than I am and you can handle this task".

Interesting point but wasn't there an episode in 4b where Oliver told Laurel that he had a lot of anger and resentment towards his father because Robert basically left his mess for Oliver to clean up? (Was it in the dreaded 415?) 

I agree with your earlier point that Pre Island Ollie never suffered the consequences of his actions. Either Moira threw money at them or Laurel ignored them. 

Moira was very controlling to a certain extent so I could see Ollie taking the path of least resistance with her.

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I don't think we've seen enough of pre-island Oliver to say how he felt about himself for sure. I just think it's possible that Oliver knew he was kind of shitty, even if just subconsciously. 

He seemed pretty quick to accept how useless he'd been.  He didn't have much of an ego on the island, which is actually something that surprised me even then.  He was still a lot nicer a guy under that frat boy douche bag than I expected.  Though until Shado met Sara and got the story of Oliver running off with the sister of the girl whose picture he was clinging to (but still not stopping him from sleeping with her, Shado) I'm not sure he'd felt shame over his actions.  

Edited April 8, 2017 by BkWurm1
clarity

[Hiveminder]

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

He seemed pretty quick to accept how useless he'd been.  He didn't have much of an ego on the island, which is actually something that surprised me even then.  He was still a lot nicer a guy under that frat boy douche bag than I expected.  Though until Shado met Sara and got the story of Oliver running off with the sister of the girl whose picture he was clinging to (but still not stopping him from sleeping with her, Shado) I'm not sure he'd felt shame over his actions.  

There's always been a little bit of a disconnect between the kind of person Oliver and others have described pre-island Oliver as being and the guy we saw on the island in season one. There must have been more to him than just your stereotypical, cheating, douche frat boy. I mean, would Tommy, with no basis for believing he was still alive, have searched for two years for a guy who wasn't a pretty awesome friend?  By all accounts he was an excellent big brother, if nothing else. 

[statsgirl]

With this too, we don't have enough information to really know.  Oliver did seem like a good friend to Tommy, until he told Tommy to fight for Laurel and then decided to bang her himself instead (major douchey move), but on the other hand, Tommy didn't seem to have much in his life other than his friendship with Oliver and being a pseudo-son to the Queens.  That probably affected how hard he searched for Oliver too.

44 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Interesting point but wasn't there an episode in 4b where Oliver told Laurel that he had a lot of anger and resentment towards his father because Robert basically left his mess for Oliver to clean up? (Was it in the dreaded 415?)

Moira was very controlling to a certain extent so I could see Ollie taking the path of least resistance with her.

Oliver seems to have taken the path of least resistance in everything.  Want a girl?  Charm her into having sex with you even if she's at her engagement party.  School too tough?  Drop out, don't tell your parents, and know that when they find out, after taking you on a boat trip for a vacation they'll just pay to get you into another one.  Want to drink and do drugs? Sure, give in to it.  It seems like the hardest he ever worked at anything was getting a girl into bed. Or into a trip on the Queen's Gambit.

I don't remember that conversation with Laurel but if it's 415, could he have been referring to how hard it's  been in the past years rather than just the task?  Although with the Talia (retcon) speech about how he needs to honour his father and take care of crossing names out of his book, it doesn't makes much sense the he would hold resentment against Robert's wishes since it's what gave him a purpose in life.  Without that, he still had nothing to do and nowhere to go if Amanda Waller and Taiana hadn't pointed him to it.

Until Oliver decided for himself that he needed to save his family's company and later Starling City, he really was directionless.  Even after the island, Amanda Waller had to give him the task to go back and fix the problems in s4, Taiana's death gave him the mission to return to Russia and take down Kovar,  Talia told him to go back to Starling with his father's book, and Diggle and later Felicity told him to expand beyond targeting the names in the books and go after other criminals.

[leopardprint]

I think Ollie seemed very sweet but easily distracted and self-centered, and pre-Island Laurel, did we ever confirm if she actually knew he was cheating on her before the boat exploded? I have no idea how the writers could have possibly thought they were starting an epic love story with that background.

An example: Ollie would totes give you a million dollars, no questions asked, but also sleep with your girlfriend. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[leopardprint]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I don't remember that conversation with Laurel but if it's 415, could he have been referring to how hard it's  been in the past years rather than just the task? 

I had it totally and completely wrong! 

From 413:

Quote

"I don't know how much you remember about my father, but he was not a good man, he threw in with Malcolm Merlyn, and all of that being said, there is nothing that I wouldn't do to have him back."

I think Oliver said he had anger towards his father in S1 to Tommy at the Chinese restaurant. 

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, it seems Ollie lived a careless and consequence free existence, but that he wasn't by nature cruel, which makes the torture scene and Oliver's belief he liked killing in Kapusion more tragic.

Edited April 9, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Hiveminder]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

With this too, we don't have enough information to really know.  Oliver did seem like a good friend to Tommy, until he told Tommy to fight for Laurel and then decided to bang her himself instead (major douchey move), but on the other hand, Tommy didn't seem to have much in his life other than his friendship with Oliver and being a pseudo-son to the Queens.  That probably affected how hard he searched for Oliver too.

Oliver seems to have taken the path of least resistance in everything.  Want a girl?  Charm her into having sex with you even if she's at her engagement party.  School too tough?  Drop out, don't tell your parents, and know that when they find out, after taking you on a boat trip for a vacation they'll just pay to get you into another one.  Want to drink and do drugs? Sure, give in to it.  It seems like the hardest he ever worked at anything was getting a girl into bed. Or into a trip on the Queen's Gambit.

I don't remember that conversation with Laurel but if it's 415, could he have been referring to how hard it's  been in the past years rather than just the task?  Although with the Talia (retcon) speech about how he needs to honour his father and take care of crossing names out of his book, it doesn't makes much sense the he would hold resentment against Robert's wishes since it's what gave him a purpose in life.  Without that, he still had nothing to do and nowhere to go if Amanda Waller and Taiana hadn't pointed him to it.

Until Oliver decided for himself that he needed to save his family's company and later Starling City, he really was directionless.  Even after the island, Amanda Waller had to give him the task to go back and fix the problems in s4, Taiana's death gave him the mission to return to Russia and take down Kovar,  Talia told him to go back to Starling with his father's book, and Diggle and later Felicity told him to expand beyond targeting the names in the books and go after other criminals.

We don't have a lot of information on what things were like pre-island, so I guess it's whatever makes the most sense to you. 

Oliver does seem to take the easiest path in regard to his relationships with other people, but he's also shown an impressive ability to keep going when other people would have given up. 

I think it's possible that Oliver would be angry and disappointed in Robert for not being the man Oliver thought he was and still loving his father and wanting to fulfill his dying wish. I wonder if there isn't some subconscious resentment on Oliver's part because Oliver only kept fighting to survive at times because Robert literally told him to survive, and sometimes Oliver doesn't want to do that. 

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

I think it's possible that Oliver would be angry and disappointed in Robert for not being the man Oliver thought he was and still loving his father and wanting to fulfill his dying wish. I wonder if there isn't some subconscious resentment on Oliver's part because Oliver only kept fighting to survive at times because Robert literally told him to survive, and sometimes Oliver doesn't want to do that

I agree that Oliver has complex and conflicted feelings toward both his parents.  

And how could you not resent someone that insisted you survive when he wouldn't try to do the same?

[statsgirl]

I can't imagine how conflicted Oliver's feelings about his father must be.  There's enough for years of therapy just right there.  Oliver's father had always treated him in lackadaisical, entitled manner (when Robert saw Sara on the boat all he said was "this isn't going to end well, son" instead of turning the boat around and kicking them both off) but then Robert shot the innocent sailor on the raft with them and told Oliver to right his wrongs before shooting himself in the head in front of his son, probably splattering Oliver with his brains.  How can you not be traumatized from that?

Oliver also had a very simplistic view of Moira in s1 and most of s2, very "you are a bad person" up until almost right before Moira's death.  And of Thea, thinking she was too young to be told the truth or make her own decisions.

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

I think Ollie seemed very sweet but easily distracted and self-centered, and pre-Island Laurel, did we ever confirm if she actually knew he was cheating on her before the boat exploded?

In the flashback with Sara when Laurel is laying out her five year plan with Oliver, Sara says "you know he cheated on you with ten other girls?", Laurel replies "Why can't you be happy for me?"  If it had come as a surprise to Laurel that Oliver cheated on her, she would have said something like "What are you talking about?" and probably freaked out.

[bethy]

Brooklyn 99 started up again last night, and I would like the Arrow writers and producers to watch it to see that it is possible to have two of your main characters date and not have them take over the show. The Jake/Amy relationship is marvelous in my opinion (which, who would have thunk it, given Andy Samberg being part of the couple, though he has been a revelation to me over the course of the show) and any television person who mentions or even obliquely refers to Moonlighting as a reason why putting couples together ruins shows should be tied down and forced to watch all four seasons of Brooklyn 99 (and actually Parks and Rec) until they admit that the Moonlighting Curse is not a thing and is only used by lazy, unimaginative writers who are grasping for excuses as to why they can't get their LIs together. [/rant]

Edited April 12, 2017 by bethy

[way2interested]

I'll slightly agree in that I'm happy for B99 and for defying couple drama in general, but a 1/2 ensemble comedy and a 1 hour drama are kind of two completely different worlds.

[bethy]

Yes, comedy and drama are different worlds, but I'm not sure why that makes much of a difference in terms of how you might be able to handle a couple in a drama. Give them an adult relationship where they interact with each other like they care for and respect one another, where, when they have disagreements the couple can resolve them without lies or drama, have them interact with other people on the show as individuals they have separate friendships with. The drama piece of the show can come from outside the couple's relationship or if there is drama within it, they can deal with it the way normal human beings would. I thought the show actually did that fairly effectively early on in season 4. 

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Yes, comedy and drama are different worlds, but I'm not sure why that makes much of a difference in terms of how you might be able to handle a couple in a drama. Give them an adult relationship where they interact with each other like they care for and respect one another, where, when they have disagreements the couple can resolve them without lies or drama, have them interact with other people on the show as individuals they have separate friendships with. The drama piece of the show can come from outside the couple's relationship or if there is drama within it, they can deal with it the way normal human beings would. I thought the show actually did that fairly effectively early on in season 4. 

That I can get and I totally agree on. The literal idea of "watch B99 and do what they do" is just the idea that I'm nitpicky on. Arrow isn't B99 and B99 isn't Arrow, asking Arrow to look at B99 for tips on something (even if it comes from a genuine concern/criticism for Arrow and a praise to B99) innately makes as much sense as asking B99 to look at Arrow for tips on something. The criticism on its own is enough, comparing apples and oranges doesn't really make as much sense to me.

[kismet]

I personally think someone in TV studies in some University somewhere should work on a dissertation debunking the whole concept of the Moonlight curse. I think it would be a healthy development for TV relationships on the whole, if there was some evidence that the Moonlight Curse is not real. It comes down to good storytelling and characterization, as well as a whole lot of other things, whether a show is successful or not. It would be nice to see that evidence brought to light. Some genres & relationships thrive because of the Moonlight Curse, I just don't think it should be given as much power as it does. Because a lot of shows & couples would have been better off if the showrunners let them evolve organically and not just apply the Moonlight rubric on them.

[statsgirl]

I don't think a university thesis would help. There are enough articles debunking the Moonlighting Curse.

They believe in it because they want to believe in it.  It's easier to write the break-ups and make-ups than to write Coach and Tami.

[lemotomato]

2 years after the original airdate, the background music-free version of this scene has passed 25 million views  ;)

[statsgirl]

I always get somewhat embarrassed when I watch that scene without music, like I'm intruding on someone else's private moments.

From the 3x22 script posted on the Media thread

Quote

 [Felicity's heart plummets. She didn't think things could get any worse. She was wrong...... Ra's stands triumphantly next to Al Sah-him as Felicity and Company are dragged away -- OFF Felicity, her  string to Oliver finally cut --]

It occurs to me that even without everything else that happened, Felicity is a good candidate for PTSD from all the relationship whiplash she was getting from Oliver that year:

• In 2x23, he told her he loved her at the mansion, and then refused to confirm or deny it later
• Asked her on a 'date date' in 3x01 which made her all hopeful they could have a relationship and by the end of the episode was telling her he couldn't be with her
• Told her he loved her just as he was leaving to fight a duel-to-the-death with Ra's and the bloody sword made Felicity think he really had died
• Came back from death and just as Felicity was joyfully running into this arms, told her that he was working with Malcolm, the man Felicity said he would never work with, instead of choosing to be with her
• Excluded her in his planning sessions on what to do about Ra's and Malcolm, leading Felicity to go to the man who did seem to value her opinions - Ray
• After exchanging "I love you"s and finally being able to be with each other for one night, Oliver stayed with the League
• Felicity and Company arrive to save Oliver, only to have Oliver not only reject her but leave them in prison to what they think is their deaths
• Oliver is willing to run off with Felicity but only if she leaves behind her work with the Team, without giving her any wiggle room (e.g. possibiity of continuing to work long distance
• One year after committing himself to her, Felicity finds out that Oliver lied to her about having a son, and made the decisions on his own after she's told him it's a deal-breaker.

Oh, and then he killed Felicity's new boyfriend but at that point, she was probably numb anyway. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by statsgirl

[way2interested]

Just now, statsgirl said:

It occurs to me that even without everything else that happened, Felicity is a good candidate for PTSD from all the relationship whiplash she was getting from Oliver that year

All that and that's not even counting her other non-Oliver relationship slaps she had circa s2-s4, mother/father issues (both of whom lied/kept something significant from her), her issues in dealing with her college bf (both in the past and after finding out he was really alive and was going to kill her/her mother, not to mention having to pretty much talk him into suicide), one temp LI who ended up in a coma, another temp LI with a vigilante complex, and another temp LI who was killed partially because of her. But, definitely, at this point, in a reality case, it's a surprise that Felicity's able to emotionally connect with anyone.

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver is willing to run off with Felicity but only if she leaves behind her work with the Team, without giving her any wiggle room (e.g. possibiity of continuing to work long distance

Leaving with him wasn't really forcing her to leave behind her working with the team, though. She wanted to go with him, and he thought she was on board with leaving their vigilante lives behind. She never even mentioned that she was bored of their domestic life or wanted to continue helping the team until 401. She might have kept it a secret because she didn't want to ruin his new lifestyle, but he wasn't even as upset with the idea that she was helping the team as much as he thought that they were both on the same side of their relationship and that he was actually mistaken.

[statsgirl]

I think it's a problem of communication, that Felicity thought she couldn't tell Oliver that she still wanted to help Thea, Diggle and Laurel because he might say that he didn't want to be with her then.  He had rejected her so many times in the past year that she may have been afraid to tell her what she wanted in case he rejected her again, which would have hurt even worse now that she knew what it was like to be with him. #SummerOfLove

I've read so many times that Oliver lying about William is much less a sin than Felicity lying to him every day about working with the Team that it's a sore point for me.

Edited April 23, 2017 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

I never took Felicity hiding helping the team as a sign of her being afraid of losing Oliver. I simply took it as her wanting him to have a chance to lead a life that made him happy and relaxed. When he found out, her reaction was a cute pouty face. Not really a sign of dread that she'd lose him IMO.

[way2interested]

Yeah, the way I saw it was that she was more concerned, rather than afraid, that he wouldn't be his carefree happy self anymore for his own sake, along with being concerned that he would be mad at her in general for keeping a secret from him (taken as a separate situation, not comparing it to the BMD at all, just the concept of someone keeping a secret from the other). As of the end of 323, I think she was pretty confident that Oliver would never leave her (only to really question it in 410), which is why the fact that he emotionally betrayed that trust by keeping the kid secret hurt so much.

[statsgirl]

Wanting Oliver to have a life that made him happy shouldn't mean that Felicity thought she had to lie to him about helping her friends in Starling City, or pretend to be happy in Ivy Town when she really wasn't.

Why did she feel that she had to lie and pretend rather than be honest with him about how she really felt and what she wanted for her life with him?

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Why did she feel that she had to lie and pretend rather than be honest with him about how she really felt and what she wanted for her life with him?

Because she knew they wanted different things? This was pretty much addressed in 4x01.

[statsgirl]

A couple wanting different things is pretty much SOP in any relationship.  Couples that are going to make it work through things together.

Their relationship in Ivy Town, of Oliver being happy and Felicity lying to him and just waiting till they could get out of there, was not sustainable.   At some point, Felicity's unhappiness at being there was going to outweigh her happiness at being with Oliver.  It's kind of Oliver making Felicity his EA Take II.

One of the reasons I admire Felicity is that she always has the courage to say what she thinks, whether it's to Oliver, Moira or Walter when she thinks she's going to get fired.  Why wouldn't she be able to tell the man she loves that she's not happy in Ivy Town?  I fanwank it that she was afraid of losing him if she told him how she really felt, and Oliver was too absorbed in his relief in this new life to notice.  It's either that or For Plot.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Why wouldn't she be able to tell the man she loves that she's not happy in Ivy Town?

Did she not do that in 4x01?

I'm guessing she didn't do it earlier because the show doesn't start until October, and that was the plot point that made them stay in Star City.

[statsgirl]

As I recall, she didn't tell him until after Thea and Laurel came to ask them back to Star City to help deal with the current bad guys and as soon as the opportunity came to leave Ivy Town, Felicity jumped on it eagerly. She only told Oliver later when they were in Star City talking about going back that she didn't want to go, after he had found out she had lied to him about helping Diggle etc. while they were away..

Edited April 23, 2017 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

So? If Oliver had actually gotten around to proposing, I imagine she would've said something then. I doubt she would've stayed in Ivy Town unhappy forever without saying anything. 

[Carrie Ann]

I got the feeling that Felicity was trying to like Ivy Town, and had probably only recently started to accept that she wasn't ever going to. To me, it seemed that she was staying quiet about it because she saw that being away was helping Oliver heal and that was more important to her at that point. When he was stressed about everything and said they never should have come back to SC, she did offer--sincerely, IMO--to go back to Ivy Town. I think she would have chosen to be with him and do the "work" of the team remotely if that's what he needed. But I agree that it wasn't sustainable forever and if Thea and Laurel hadn't shown up, she eventually would have had to break it to him that she wasn't satisfied with that life.

[LeighAn]

Felicity WAS happy. She basically said as much she was happy with Oliver but bored and missed the excitement and purpose of their vigilante life. She wasn't miserable and depressed and confined and too afraid and insecure to do anything about it. She loved being with Oliver, she was happy with Oliver but she understood that Oliver had made the decision to let the vigilante life go so that he had a chance to be happy. If anything I think her decision to not tell him about helping the team was more about knowing that if she told Oliver she wanted out of Ivy Town that he would leave for her and then HE wouldn't be happy because he would be going back to a life that had burdened him. 

[statsgirl]

Felicity was happy with Oliver but impression I got was that MIT double MSc Felicity was bored out of her mind in Ivy Town with nothing to do but talk of slow cookers and preschools and fail miserably at being a cook herself while being shut out of the company she had been left.  She couldn't have jumped any faster at the chance to do something when Thea and Laurel came calling.

She would have gone back with Oliver to Ivy Town if he had wanted to go back but I think it saved their relationship that he was willing to stay in Star City.

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

 As of the end of 323, I think she was pretty confident that Oliver would never leave her (only to really question it in 410), which is why the fact that he emotionally betrayed that trust by keeping the kid secret hurt so much.

I forgot about 410 when I drew up the emotional whiplash list.

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity was happy with Oliver but impression I got was that MIT double MSc Felicity was bored out of her mind in Ivy Town with nothing to do but talk of slow cookers and preschools and fail miserably at being a cook herself while being shut out of the company she had been left.  She couldn't have jumped any faster at the chance to do something when Thea and Laurel came calling.

Yes, I don't think anyone here is arguing that point. She was happy with Oliver, but missed her life having a purpose, which it didn't have in Ivy Town, but did have in Star City - she said as much in 4x01 when she admitted to lying to Oliver about what she'd been up to.