Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Chaser]

First date level good.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

They didn't let Felicity talk till 3x20. I'm thinking Oliver is in the same boat.

Im going to need this monologue to be the best written thing this show has ever put out. 

There better be multiple apologies too. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

If he uses the words "I'm sorry" I know I'm going to faint, hahahahaha.

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

There better be multiple apologies too. 

Sadly, I feel like this is a tall order. 

And if it's not in the script - I hope Steve slips an apology in there

[Midnight Lullaby]

My fear that we won't see an apology has little to do with the character and all to do with MG that would have to admit, through the script, that what Oliver did was wrong.

[Chaser]

I don't think it's that MG doesn't want to admit that what Oliver did was wrong, I think a simple "I'm sorry" just slipped thru the cracks. They probably viewed the vows in 4x16 as his big apology. 

[ComicFan777]

Oliver is great at compartmentalizing everything into boxes - he puts all the trouble in the special pandora box.

[wonderwall]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

does that mean he also can't notice when she's in trouble?

What has she done/said since Russia that would indicate that she's in trouble?

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

I don't think it's that MG doesn't want to admit that what Oliver did was wrong, I think a simple "I'm sorry" just slipped thru the cracks. They probably viewed the vows in 4x16 as his big apology. 

I don't know..he seemed very determined to justify what Oliver did last year to me with his interview. He also said he feels like he apologized or something like that so I'm not expecting them to write an apology if they feel he sort of apologized already.

[Chaser]

Yeah......I'm not really talking about MG's justifying Oliver's actions. I'm just saying I don't think the lack of 'I'm sorry' from Oliver is tied to MG not wanting to admit he was wrong. I highly doubt MG set the writers down and said under no circumstances can Oliver say 'I'm sorry' to Felicity cause of my pride.

[finnaire]

Remember when the EPs said (paraphrased) they knew they had rushed O/F and the breakup and it turned out to be a huge debacle and they wished they hadn’t done it that way? It looks to me like they are trying, in s5, to return to a slower paced unfolding of the continuation of their story. But going back to the techniques that worked the first time. It was easier then because the couple hadn’t gotten together yet.  They could give us a lot of physical/visual cues through invasion of personal space, touches, “heart eyes”’ gazes/stares without actually having to tell us much through dialogue. It was a fun, flirtatious dance to watch. And it happened over several seasons before it came to fruition.  Now, they’ve had to start at a point in their story where they have been together and broken up. They are still using the physical/visual cues but their starting point with it has had to be from a long, cold distance.

Remember when the season started and everybody was complaining about how O/F treated each other like just teammates?  Almost like the relationship never happened; like they barely even knew each other and it was hard to watch?  And they were constantly disagreeing. They argued about the old team, forming a new team, replacing the old team, training the new team. Diggle wasn’t there to step in and O/F were at loggerheads about everything Team Arrow. Although, Felicity did manage to notice that the salmon ladder was still hot. “I mean not. Hot.” Oliver gave in about the new team but then there was the training. Remember how they disagreed about that? Repeatedly. He did notice that something was wrong with her and asked about it. But, they didn’t have that kind of relationship any more and she wasn’t willing to say. So, they went back to arguing about his training methods. That time, Felicity kind of gave in and gave him a pep talk like in the old days. “I was in awe.”  And he told her about Bratva. “You never talk about Bratva.” But he finally did.

Their conversations frequently took place across the room from each other or were staged so they were not looking at each other.  And the other team members were pretty much always around.  And they still didn’t agree about the team. This time it was about Rene and she gave him the lecture about her dog, Lucky. They were standing at opposite ends of the work table. But, he got the message. Then, they really argued about Diggle and the prison break. And about Rory leaving the team over Havenrock. He didn’t want to give up on Diggle and he didn’t want her to give up on Rory. And in the end, she had a new friend in Rory and, “I got John. I couldn’t write him off.” And they actually looked at each other. One might say, gazed at each other in understanding. And mom and dad stopped with all the bickering, briefly.

So, then came the two heart to heart convos. They finally talked like they maybe, at some point,had feelings for one another. And so we knew Flashpoint hadn’t wiped away s4. But, they managed to keep plenty of physical distance between them. The first time, Oliver needed to confirm she was with Billy. Yes, she had moved on, but couldn't quite admit whether or not it was “real”.  But, that was fine, he just wanted her to be happy. The second time it was mutually decided that he should probably move on. But neither of them moved. They just stared at each other. And that was a mortal lock. 

Oliver went on a date with the shady reporter. (And became a dumbass in the fandom.) And,  it became four squared with Billy and the dreaded reporter. And then commenced the sniping, “your new girlfriend”, “what about your boyfriend”, “your girlfriend”, “stop calling her my girlfriend!”  Fortunately, the aliens came so they acted like adults for a couple of episodes. 

But then, the holidays arrived, Felicity got drunk, could barely introduce Billy to her friends and was super awkward with Oliver and the “super hot reporter” who did not want to go on a double date. Then, Curtis got attacked by Prometheus, Oliver and Felicity both dropped their dates like hot potatoes and rushed off to the hospital together. Although, Billy was there too, so maybe he drove them. Sadly, we’ll never know who called shotgun. Billy goes off to be a cop, Oliver admits he knows a thing or two about the drug Curtis ingested and tells Felicity about Clayborne. Yes, indeed, more revelations from Oliver. Dude is getting downright chatty . Later back at the lair, Felicity repeatedly wants to know why men don’t listen.  But, none of them answer so they apparently weren’t listening. Oh wait, Oliver was listening because he eventually tells her, “because we’re stubborn.” (I’m pretty sure her question was rhetorical.) And then there was some silly flashback about a red pen and believing in magic. But, I’m pretty sure that was all gratuitous because before Olicity fans could squee, Oliver had to admit, “I killed Billy,” while they both cried (Oliver and Felicity, that is, not Olicity.)  Oh and, he may have gotten more hugs than she did. But he was still sad and sought out the shady reporter for comfort while Felicity mourned alone. (And, thus Oliver became hated in the fandom.) TBC

[statsgirl]

When MG said they rushed the storyline in s4 to hit the tentpoles, I thought they meant breaking Oliver and Felicity up too quickly so that it didn't hold together as a story.

That's what they did wrong, the emotional beats were mistimed to hit the plot moments.  I think they've doubled down on that, or quadrupled, in the opposite direction.  Now the emotional beats are so minor and so hidden you have to sift through two tonnes of other story to find them.  As others have said, it you're not a major Olicity shipper, you think they're done for good. That's not good storytelling. 

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

What has she done/said since Russia that would indicate that she's in trouble?

We're going to disagree on this, I know.  But to me it's

1. Not asking why she was different in Russia
2.  Assuming that his speech to both Felicity and Diggle were going to set them back on the right path
3. Checking with Diggle that it had but not with Felicity
4. Diggle noticing that Felicity was going down a dark path but Oliver is oblivious
5. Not noticing/being oblivious to how uncomfortable she was when asked to fix things with his new girlfriend

[insomniadreams88]

I think you could argue that a lot of the problems with the relationships this season come from them downplaying any pre-S5 relationships in order to build up the new relationships with the new characters. 

[theOAfc]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

 

I don't think it's that MG doesn't want to admit that what Oliver did was wrong

 

I mean he did say what Oliver did was honorable so...

[Midnight Lullaby]

I didn't mean it because of MG's pride but because that's the narrative he decided to sell.

[bijoux]

45 minutes ago, finnaire said:

Fortunately, the aliens came so they acted like adults for a couple of episodes. 

ROFL

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I mean he did say what Oliver did was honorable so...

.....

 

52 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Yeah......I'm not really talking about MG's justifying Oliver's actions. I'm just saying I don't think the lack of 'I'm sorry' from Oliver is tied to MG not wanting to admit he was wrong. I highly doubt MG set the writers down and said under no circumstances can Oliver say 'I'm sorry' to Felicity cause of my pride.

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I didn't mean it because of MG's pride but because that's the narrative he decided to sell.

All I'm saying is I don't think there is a big conspiracy behind Oliver not saying 'I'm sorry'. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

All I'm saying is I don't think there is a big conspiracy behind Oliver not saying 'I'm sorry'. 

I understand. Just to be clear I didn't mean it like that. Simply that Oliver taking a difficult but honorable decision is the story they meant to tell that part of the audience didn't take that way. So an apology is something I'd like to hear but I don't think it fits in the narrative they have been trying to sell.

[dtissagirl]

The hilarious part in all of this for me is that I'm still binge watching Chicago Fire, and Casey and Dawson had been living together for a year, they were engaged to be married, and then they broke up, and still had to work together every day, and worse -- he was her direct superior in the chain of command. One full season of working together, going into dangerous situations [they're both firefighters], and I swear to Zod, every. single. scene. between them took into account that they were almost married, and still had to work together through the breakup. The writing was aware of it, the two actors were aware of it, the rest of the cast were aware of it. And issues came up, and they were talked about, because even dumb cliché procedurals know how to do character driven crap.

Like, watching this while Arrow set up the. exact. same. thing. between its main couple has been probably the most eye opening thing re: Oliver/Felicity I have seen in a while. It can be done in an ordinary normal human manner. Arrow chooses to do it via insane troll logic.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

But then, the holidays arrived, Felicity got drunk,

I don't recall her getting drunk.  Is that a fanwank to account for her trying to set up a double date?  

Quote

But, they managed to keep plenty of physical distance between them. 

They have been shortening the physical gap between them as the season goes along.  Was it just two weeks ago we were celebrating the finger tap?  And then a hug?  It took a nuclear explosion, but it's progress, lol.  Painfully slow, but the right direction.  

[legaleagle53]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't recall her getting drunk.  Is that a fanwank to account for her trying to set up a double date?  

Oh, she was more than a little tipsy at Oliver's holiday party.  How could you not have noticed it?

[statsgirl]

Billy asked "Is that your second glass of champagne?" and she said "Third". Or maybe it was third and fourth.  She was super nervous about introducing Billy to her friends.

Felicity was trying to normalize the situation and Susan was being a bitch.

I was trying to think if I could ever enjoy Olicity again.  I might, if they writing never puts anything between them again.  But knowing these writers, it's bound to.

[Mellowyellow]

If they didn't want us to loath that vile cockroach they should not have had her be mean to Felicity. The woman was toast the moment she looked at Felicity with her snotty asshole expression.

I hope that character dies with an arrow stabbed in the eye. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[SmallScreenDiva]

17 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do think after 505 that Oliver for the majority of the time (with a handful of exceptions) has treated Felicity as if she was just his co-worker but I don't think that means that he's stopped caring, just that he's maintaining a separation of his emotions by compartmentalizing their current relationship as primarily that of co-workers.

 I don't like it, but it's really not unlike how he reacted in the early part of season three after he decided they couldn't be together.  He comes off as cold, distant and yes, uncaring but we find out later that he's thinking about her, even dreaming about her, constantly.  He just keeps that part of him walled off from how he treats her most of the time.  And I think it's a self defense method because even though I do think Oliver is the one at fault for the break up, I do also think he did and still does agonize over what he's lost and treating Felicity in what seems like a perfunctory manner is him keeping those feelings in check by keeping some distance between them because anything else allows all the love and longing and pain because he screwed it up and can't have her to flair up and that gets in the way of everything.  

I could totally get behind this and the Season 3 similarities work for me, but yeah I have to see this, hear it on the show. It has to be made plain like a pimple on the nose.

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

They have been shortening the physical gap between them as the season goes along.  Was it just two weeks ago we were celebrating the finger tap?  And then a hug?  It took a nuclear explosion, but it's progress, lol.  Painfully slow, but the right direction.  

Maybe I'm just a cranky viewer but IMO they can't have it both ways.  They can't want us to watch so closely that we can see that the physical gap between Oliver and Felicity is getting shortening by millimeters as the episodes go along to indicate that Oliver and Felicity are getting closer, and not pay close enough attention to see the massive plot holes they write.

And I'm still mad that Oliver is so clueless that he makes Felicity fix his relationship with Susan.  Grrrr.  Oliver doesn't deserve to get close to Felicity.

[kismet]

On 3/4/2017 at 11:02 PM, statsgirl said:

I agree with a lot of what you said but uh uh to the S/O sex.  That isn't going to sell any tickets.

I wouldn't buy a ticket, don't see a lot of takers for that anywhere. But I think in their minds, they probably thought they could sell them. Delusional thoughts can be so misleading :)

[kismet]

I don't want a O/F sex scene in 520 because I just don't see it fitting with where I think the characters are right now. The show has not done enough to mend the large fracture it placed between them in s4. It has barely even collected supplies to start the bridging process.

I want a meaningful night of passion that leads to reconciliation, forgiveness and mending of their broken hearts. Not just a roll in the hay because its the end of the world, or they just realized that they dated the wrong people for the wrong reasons (again). And this speculation of a hook-up in 520 has the makings to fall a little shallow and far short of its goals - especially if there is not an actual conversation between the two regarding their relationship. But it would go a long way for me to perhaps be ok with it, if OQ at least APOLOGIZED for his behavior in s4b and parts of s5. I know Sorry is the hardest word to say. Elton and the hundreds of covers it spawned taught me that. However, if we at least got a sincere "I'm Sorry" - I could see how it might lead to something more - perhaps some steamy kisses.

I get is sexytimes between O/F is so good, but I guess I've been tortured for so long, I want more. When they do have sexytimes I want it to mean something more than we've moved to that tent pole of the plotting.

Edited March 6, 2017 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I don't want a O/F sex scene in 520 because I just don't see it fitting with where I think the characters are right now

I get that but in the back half of an Arrow season there can be an awful lot of characterization progress in just a few episodes so I'm optimistic that we'll get them "there" if the show needs them to be there.  

Still, I don't want to end up disappointed because of being overly optimistic and then not being happy with what we might actually get.  So worst best case is what I'm trying to set my standard at.  

[kismet]

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I get that but in the back half of an Arrow season there can be an awful lot of characterization progress in just a few episodes so I'm optimistic that we'll get them "there" if the show needs them to be there.  

Still, I don't want to end up disappointed because of being overly optimistic and then not being happy with what we might actually get.  So worst best case is what I'm trying to set my standard at.  

Agree with a lot of that. I guess for me, the show has dug itself a very deep hole. And while in previous seasons, they might have done their standard turbo-characterization and filled in a lot. I'm skeptical of my ability to forgive them or give them pass as easily as I once did. So I understand people's worst best case scenario & optimism, I'm just not there yet with the show on a personal level. They are on borrowed time, probation, a full count, whatever metaphor you want to give it. It's going to take a lot for them to repair what they broke with the show & its characters. I'm not as easily swayed as I once was by their shenanigans or peace offerings.

Edited March 7, 2017 by kismet

[Mellowyellow]

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I get that but in the back half of an Arrow season there can be an awful lot of characterization progress in just a few episodes so I'm optimistic that we'll get them "there" if the show needs them to be there.  

Still, I don't want to end up disappointed because of being overly optimistic and then not being happy with what we might actually get.  So worst best case is what I'm trying to set my standard at.  

Oh just admit it, they will shag, you will squee and all will be forgiven!

I am hoping for heart eyes though! I badly want some major heart eyes! That's all I want!

[BkWurm1]

22 hours ago, kismet said:

Agree with a lot of that. I guess for me, the show has dug itself a very deep hole. And while in previous seasons, they might have done their standard turbo-characterization and filled in a lot. I'm skeptical of my ability to forgive them or give them pass as easily as I once did. So I understand people's worst best case scenario & optimism, I'm just not there yet with the show on a personal level. They are on borrowed time, probation, a full count, whatever metaphor you want to give it. It's going to take a lot for them to repair what they broke with the show & its characters. I'm not as easily swayed as I once was by their shenanigans or peace offerings.

Well I'm all for you getting everything you need, it will only improve my experience.  :D

22 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oh just admit it, they will shag, you will squee and all will be forgiven!

I am hoping for heart eyes though! I badly want some major heart eyes! That's all I want!

Spoiler

I'm trying to brace myself for them not shagging in the present.  Because now I want it.  I'd take a flashback, since it would still be a step forward but I am tired of being positive. I want stuff that is just flat out no other way to interpret it positive.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by MuuMuuChainsmoker
Added spoiler tags

[statsgirl]

Um,

Spoiler

aren't we getting a bit spoilery, especially at the idea of fb sex?  This is a no spoiler thread.

[BkWurm1]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Um,

  Hide contents

aren't we getting a bit spoilery, especially at the idea of fb sex?  This is a no spoiler thread.

Spoiler

Yes and no.  We've been speculating on the idea of sex in 5-20 of some kind for a while now.  But now with new spoilers pretty much confirming some sort of sex scene, it's more iffy. When I posted about  it above, it was before I knew more than that the Paps were pissed so I felt it was ok to keep speculating here. I'll keep it in the spoiler thread from here out.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Spoiler

I think even speculating about 5x20 is iffy because WM said that the repercussions of Billy's death will affect them up to 5x20. So it seems like that's find of spoilery too because without that would we be speculating about 5x20?.

I don't know if there are any people here who want to be spoiler-free.  I just tend to be obsessive at times.

[BkWurm1]

No, you're right.  It's just hard to sometimes remember/know what spec come from spoilers and what is just spec.

[kismet]

Well I thought it was speculation, since I dont follow spoilers anymore. And well the fandom/forum can get revved up over the littlest of things. It's hard to differentiate what is spoiler or speculation.  I first saw it hinted in the hopes/fear section I think or maybe in this thread. 

My personal thoughts stay the same whether its a speculation or spoiler. I dont want it right now :)

Edited March 8, 2017 by kismet

[kismet]

I've heard rumblings from the Twitter that the

Spoiler

Olicity sex scene might be a flashback sex scene.

I believe this is the best way to handle it. Because it points the audience & couple back in the right direction, but also hopefully allows the show time and space to work on making OQ less of a douche and more deserving of a reconciliation. I'm still holding out for a legit apology and display that he has learned from his mistakes.

It also is a great way to generate some interest in the show. Because this way I can be rooting for the scene, without having it compromise the characterization, or their relationship. So now with that speculation or reveal, I can be on board this train, whereas before it was going to be a hard pass. It gets me back the couple I loved without hopefully permanently ruining the relationship by skipping over fundamental things that need to be repaired and not just glossed over.

Edited March 9, 2017 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

Spoiler

This topic is all over the spoiler thread right now, so maybe replies should be posted there? Bringing stuff here just ends up spoiling people who want to remain unspoiled.

[kismet]

I said my piece, I don't feel like wanting to join the actual discussion other than to hypothetical speculation. Just wanted to say what I thought in relation to where I feel O/F present day relationship is in case others felt similar, who don't want to be spoiled by actual spoilers. And it's been all over this thread and social media thread  & I think even hopes & fears for days now, so it's already been overly suggested & speculated

Spoiler

if not already spoiled.

But I understand your point. However, that's why there are spoiler tags.

[Mellowyellow]

About to tuck in with TVD finale.

Is it true they were going for a TVD trio with Laurel, Tommy and Oliver? I thought I saw someone post it. Really????

I just can't imagine it! To think that there could have been no such thing as Olicity!

[bijoux]

Its' true. The casting director said so and early advertising plays into it.

[Mellowyellow]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Its' true. The casting director said so and early advertising plays into it.

But they were so unappealing together! I know people loved Tommy but season one was a doozy with their drama. I only watched the Felicity episodes!

Yikes imagine the triangle of doom for 8 seasons!

[bijoux]

That was the original network plan and what I believe sold the show at that point.

[Midnight Lullaby]

It was..which makes the complaints about romance on Arrow pretty hilarious, LOL.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

About to tuck in with TVD finale.

Is it true they were going for a TVD trio with Laurel, Tommy and Oliver? I thought I saw someone post it. Really????

I just can't imagine it! To think that there could have been no such thing as Olicity!

[Mellowyellow]

Wow thanks @SmallScreenDiva

I wonder if they had better chemistry whether the triangle of doom would have worked and been an integral part of the show.

KC was/is really pretty! They are just as good-looking as the TVD trio! So weird how it all turned out huh and the crazy juggernaut that is Olicity. CW should still be happy! They got the ship everyone obsesses over just like they wanted! Just not the one they were initially sold! 

[lemotomato]

"Arrow season 1 was great because it was all about comics and action! No stupid romance!"

Meanwhile, the CW made this trailer talking about what kind of a boyfriend Oliver Queen was:

Edited March 11, 2017 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

Omg!!!! They really tried to sell it. 

Did we ever get an official Olicity trailer?

[finnaire]

What the hell show was THAT? Thank god somebody hired Blake Neely. It's amazing how the soundtrack can change the whole atmosphere of a scene/show. 

Can you imagine the uproar if they tried to sell it that way now?  I wish they would because I would die laughing!