Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

I think Laurel and Palmer both suffered from the writers' intention being one thing, and the outcome being something else entirely. And being able to tell their stories completely separated from Oliver's presence is super telling in that they don't really belong to this story.

 

Laurel is a lost cause for me at this point. She lost all of her narrative roles in connection to Oliver, and then gained the Black Canary suit... but that has zero connection to Oliver. She's there because comics. She's the fictional character equivalent of a human appendix: evolutionary leftover that serves no purpose, so it's just hanging there. Except it might burst one day, and you'll have to go to the hospital and have emergency surgery. Or you'll die.

 

Palmer was miscalculated on Arrow: they wanted old school he-said-she-said banter between him and Felicity, but he ended up being presented a creeper. [Forever LOL.] They also wanted him to be the anti-Oliver, an earnest optimistic dreaming of a brighter future guy. But that resulted in the most linear and uncomplicated hero's journey ever, which made it zzzzzyawn boring. But I do think when he was finally integrated into the A-plot, there was potential. I just hope the LoT writers figure out this guy needs to be the butt of every single joke ever. He's gotta be the straight man to everyone else's puns. That's how you fix any leftover problematic characterization from Arrow he might still have.

[apinknightmare]

Personally, I don't really care about any of the Lances anymore. I spent half of last season worrying that Quentin was going to die from a heart attack when Laurel finally told him about Sara, then wished he actually had because he became completely ridiculous. Laurel could've been interesting, but her motivations are all over the place, and I did like Sara the first time she came back from the dead. But Lance family drama seems to follow her, and I'll have to see how different she is from the LP - I have a feeling that I won't be that sad to see her go over to LoT. 

 

ETA: just realized that I meant to post this as a reply in another thread, but...eh, it fits.

Edited July 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I really get the impression that some of Oliver's disinterest in Laurel comes from SA.  I am NOT saying SA dislikes KC, but I think he doesn't care for Laurel or that relationship.  I don't know if/how he can get over that, but for me that's how it comes across, and if Oliver finds her exasperating and annoying, it makes it very easy for me to find her exasperating and annoying.  I just cannot for the life of me figure out an in-show reason for those two to be friends or even friendly colleagues at this point.

[dtissagirl]

I can't decide if it's Stephen sucking a little bit at his job and letting his own negative feelings re: Laurel come across, or if he made a conscious character decision, that Oliver is forever uncomfortable/frustrated/exasperated by Laurel.

 

But it works for me, because it's exactly how I feel about Laurel, and I'm glad at least one character on the show gives off GO AWAY AND STAY THERE vibes that validate my own perception.

[DrSpaceman10]

I feel that when SL and RP come back to Arrow in Season Four, their stories will end up being tangential to Oliver, just like LL's was this past season. Ray/Sara just aren't close to Oliver like Diggle, Felicity and Thea are. Sara (imo) represents a part of who Oliver used to be in the past, but doesn't really relate to who he is now, and Ray's story has pretty much always been unrelated to Oliver's story.

 

I can see how Diggle, Felicity, Thea, and even Malcolm at times are important to Oliver's journey, but I can't say the same for Ray, Laurel or Sara. Although, this won't be as much of a problem for Ray/Sara as they'll be moving on to LoT. 

[AyChihuahua]

I can't decide if it's Stephen sucking a little bit at his job and letting his own negative feelings re: Laurel come across, or if he made a conscious character decision, that Oliver is forever uncomfortable/frustrated/exasperated by Laurel.

 

But it works for me, because it's exactly how I feel about Laurel, and I'm glad at least one character on the show gives off GO AWAY AND STAY THERE vibes that validate my own perception.

Totally, BUT we are supposed to care about her.  It comes across as him in no way enjoying or desiring her continued presence in his life, making it harder for me to in any way enjoy or desire her continued presence on the show.

[tangerine95]

I think SA does dislike Laurel and is also very aware of how hated her character is.And I imagine its not that fun doing scenes with KC when he knows how their lack of chemistry is aparent.And factor in KC's opinions about Lauriver that are just oposite to SA's.But I love his reactions to Laurel,you can just see he got over his guilt about what he did to her and now he just doesn't want her there.He cares about her,but doesn't want her in his life on a regular basis.

[kismet]

I have a feeling they are going to try to rectify some of the LL problems via flashbacks. Now that we have LL & OQ as crime fighting partners, I think we will have a FB that highlights what good team/friends they were before they were romantically involved. Which will at least give me an in-show reason why they still might want to be friends now that they no longer have Sara & Tommy there as forced interactions.

 

That being said as the show stands, I cannot find an in-show reason character wise why LL & OQ would ever be friends. They both don't have the personalities on the show that shouts I will be best friends & fight crime with my ex. Especially considering how messy & complicated their actual romantic relationship was. I mean that relationship had so many fundamental issues most of trust. Its hard to imagine them wanting to share any space together, nevermind have each others backs during combat.

 

Friends with exes is hard to pull off IRL, it takes the right personality & life circumstances. On shows, its a little easier because you don't want to recast, but still making it believable is an art. I can see FS, SL, TQ & RH easily being friends with exes. They all have the personalities that I think would be able to look past the flaws that sunk their relationship & still see the value in a friendship or at least amicable partnership. OQ & LL both seem to be cut from similar cloth in that they don't easily forgive & forget. They both tend to hold on the emotional turmoil & marinate in it long after its over. Which is why for me to believe them as friends, takes a lot out of me as a viewer - especially when you have SA making acting choices that seem to indicate why are you still here?

[tangerine95]

I doubt were gonna get any flashbacks with Laurel and Oliver.They had Oliver ignore her in the starling flashbacks and just erased her importance to him almost completely,even as friends.She has no reason to be there aside from because comics excuse.They think they showed us they can be a team by having Oliver accept her in Canaries and call the whole group heroes in the finale so its a done deal for them. From the lack of news about LL's storyline in season 4 I think she'll be the new Roy of the group and she'll have her thing with Sara.I know there are a lot of people who started thinking she'll be moved to LoT,which I don't want to get my hopes up but It does seem possible.

[dtissagirl]

I have a feeling they are going to try to rectify some of the LL problems via flashbacks. Now that we have LL & OQ as crime fighting partners, I think we will have a FB that highlights what good team/friends they were before they were romantically involved.

 

Oh dear god please forever no.

 

And what would be the point of showing they had a good relationship 10-15 years ago? I don't get that. They're not the same people anymore.

[Chaser]

Suddenly showing friendly Oliver and Laurel flashbacks would be horrible. lol

 

You would have to avoid any social media because you would walk right into a ship war. There is no way it would not be viewed as ship baiting.

 

Build on what you got. Make them butt heads. Make them push each others buttons. Don't try and force a relationship that fall apart over the last eight years.

[AyChihuahua]

Oh dear god please forever no.

 

And what would be the point of showing they had a good relationship 10-15 years ago? I don't get that. They're not the same people anymore.

LOL x 1000!

 

Who would play them?  SA can't pass for 15-20, neither can KC.  So bring in teenaged actors?  That seems unlikely for more than an episode.  Also, it'd be hard to care about seeing them as good teammates in HS, knowing all the crap Oliver was most likely even then pulling on her.

[tangerine95]

They had so many oportunities to try to show us the good times via flashbacks and they never used it.All we saw was Oliver lying,cheating,getting someone pregnant and Laurel refusing to see whats right in front of her.I think the gave up on the relationship sometime in season 1.They rushed the reunion between then,gave them a lame sex scene and made them betray Tommy.In season 2 they just killed Lauriver by having Oliver be with Sara and giving us that scene where Sara says Laurel called the cops on the party.In season 3 there was no sign of it anywhere apart from I can't believe I ever loved you.Its done they're not gonna drag it out again in season 4 when Olicity is together after all they did to get rid of what they set up in the pilot.Flashbacks would be a lot of effort just to show us they could work in a team.

[dtissagirl]

I feel like Lost duped an entire generation of both storytellers AND tv watchers alike into thinking flashback/backstory is character development. And it is not, ever. Characters can have development within the flashback, sure, but the idea that whatever happened years ago will suddenly provide character development in present time is just silly, sorry.

 

It's what happened to Laurel -- and to Tommy too, to a lesser degree -- in season one. They had to be suspended in ember emotionally for the five years Oliver was gone, so that when he came back, they could react with the full spectrum of feelings and actions that make well, an actual narrative. Newsflash: it blew up in their faces, and people were much more interested in the characters that met Oliver for the first time in present time.

Edited July 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

Remember, a fan asked MG on tumblr if we were going to see a flashback of how Oliver and Laurel met, and MG said that they were kids and 'I don't think so' (or words to that effect).

 

Of course, it could just be that they didn't want to have to find kid look-alikes.  They could still have flashbacks that allow them to use SA and KC as their younger, college-age selves.

Edited July 16, 2015 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

Suddenly showing friendly Oliver and Laurel flashbacks would be horrible. lol

You would have to avoid any social media because you would walk right into a ship war. There is no way it would not be viewed as ship baiting.

Build on what you got. Make them butt heads. Make them push each others buttons. Don't try and force a relationship that fall apart over the last eight years.

This only makes me think that they're totally going to go there, because every time we point out how such-and-such wouldn't make sense, it happens on the show.

[kismet]

Alright... :) Clearly the LL/OQ FB as friends is not that popular of an idea here. Honestly, I don't really want to see it either. But I'm trying to think out of the box. :) And clearly some of the writers seem to enjoy LL, so who knows what the writers will do? And for comic purposes, she needs to stay apparently. They said they might do something new with FB and they won't necessarily always all be about OQ, so I thought it might be an angle they pursue.

 

That being said, I still need an in reason show why LL/OQ are friends & fight side by side. I got the you catch em, I cook em, but then they threw that out the window the next episode. Because I just don't buy it that they are buddies. He seemed to linger more on Ray than LL in the whole goodbye I'm going on vacation speech.

Edited July 16, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

You really are just the nicest person, kismet.

[tarotx]

For 4a I think the Flashbacks are all going to be Oliver's "current" flasback story. It won't be until episode 8 that we will have other Flashbacks. After That will be up to the s4 to make me want to see Laurel abd Ollie Flashbacks.

http://io9.com/arrow-season-4-will-feature-someone-we-haven-t-seen-in-1717377942

[Angel12d]

If this was s1, I would have said yes. Absolutely. We need O/L flashbacks. That's actually one of the reasons why they never clicked for part of the audience - because we were just told about their 'epic romance' story rather than shown. We never got to see what they were like as friends or romantic partners, aside from one or two moments, and even those came in an episode where Oliver found out he had impregnated another girl. Clinging to Laurel with his head in her lap was wrong on many levels. 

 

All that being said, I think the ship has sailed on the merit or narrative point of those kinds of flashbacks. O/L and who they were seems kind of like a retread. I feel like we know all we need to know at this point. 

 

If they do LL flashbacks, maybe show how she got her life together after the boat sank? I don't know. 

[tarotx]

If they do younger Laurel flashbacks, they can flesh out the Lance Family dynamic. That family dynamic as they grew up really would be helpful to understand our Canary sisters. Though maybe on LOT? They can do a flashback via time traveling. Or maybe to the party. That party set in motion what would lead the sisters journeys.

[EmilyBettFan]

I'm so over any Lance apart from Sara. All this Lance family drama is annoying and really furthers nothing in the story of Oliver Queen.

[tv echo]

I think if they ever do start showing flashbacks to Oliver and Laurel having good moments as a couple in the past, then it'll be a sign that they're headed toward an Oliver/Laurel re-hookup and possible endgame.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I agree. There's nothing to gain from O/L flashbacks in the current setup of their [non-]relationship, unless they're setting them up as a couple again. So if they go there, then that's when I rage-quit Arrow? Warning signs are appreciated, I guess.

[Chaser]

I take comfort in the ride into the sunset and transformation of him into Green Arrow. I'm convinced that was conceived for Oliver and Laurel originally. That's kind of their point of no return for me (of course it could happen but I don't think it's on table right now).

The lack of any ship baiting is also nice. I couldn't find any in S3 and there was nothing at SDCC. I was looking for it actually. Trying to see if they would slip in the Green Arrow and Black Canary partnership. But I don't think their names were even mentioned together. The relationships that were talked about were Olicity, Oliver/Diggle and Oliver/Thea. The closest they got to anything was having KC and SA side by side all the time, but that screams keeping the second billed happy because EBR was doing joint interviews.

[quarks]

I think if they ever do start showing flashbacks to Oliver and Laurel having good moments as a couple in the past, then it'll be a sign that they're headed toward an Oliver/Laurel re-hookup and possible endgame.

 

That's one reason I don't think we'll have any flashbacks to them as a couple, since I don't think the show plans to give us any such signs.  If they did, I think we would have had more shippy Oliver/Laurel moments this season, instead of just one hug in "Guilty" and Oliver catching Laurel after she jumped off the building, which seemed designed more as "Oooh, awesome stunt moment" than an actual Oliver/Laurel shippy moment. The other reason is that Oliver and Laurel's good moments as a couple were all at least eight years ago now (five years not entirely on the island, three years in Starling), making it increasingly harder for Amell and Cassidy to play pre-island/shipwreck Oliver and Laurel.

[AyChihuahua]

I have absolutely no fears of them trying to put Oliver and Laurel back together.  It's a combo of a lot of little moments showing nothing (sometimes less than nothing) between them, and no moments showing anything between them when you'd expect them to (flashbacks in The Return are a pretty big clue...not only no longing looks at Laurel, but yes longing looks at Felicity).  Also, negative chemistry, and so much buildup on Oliver and Felicity.  I am positive they have EBR locked in as long as SA now, and the show will end with them together.  I do think there's a good chance they'll break up at some point, but it will be bc of her father or the LOA or whatever, but then they'll have a big reunion and end the show together.

[BkWurm1]

Send me some of your confidence. Until this show and all the spin offs are off the air, I live in a constant state of ...not worry so much as vigilance. The thing I fear the most is Arrow ending wonderfully and then in some Flash episode a casual comment that rewrites everything.

[tangerine95]

I was afraid at the start of this season that there was still a possibility of Lauriver being endgame but after season 3 I sure they're not going there.They could have ship baited but they went out of their way to avoid that so I'm confident it won't be a HIMYM type of ending.I'm more worried about how they break Olicity up when they decide they need drama and angst for awhile.And how they handle the kid is my worst nightmare.Mostly cause I hate kids on shows like this and it gives me awful flashbacks to Luke and Lorelai on Gilmore Girls.

[statsgirl]

If they put Oliver and Laurel together at any time, it will only be at the very end of the show and Felicity will be dead because How Are You Going To Keep Them Down On The Farm after they've seen Paree.... I mean Oliver and Felicity happy together in a relationship?  There's not way Olver/Laurel is going to be anything but a pale imitation after that. 

 

Hopefully the EPs will have learned from the mistakes of HIMYM and St. Elsewhere, and realize it's not a good idea to piss off  your audience just because it's the last episode of the show.

 

 

The thing I fear the most is Arrow ending wonderfully and then in some Flash episode a casual comment that rewrites everything.

But will it be canon if it's on The Flash and not Arrow?

[tv echo]

I love SA's insights into how he and EBR have enhanced the Oliver & Felicity relationship through little, unscripted things...

 

-- On his fave thing about the Olicity relationship, SA: "That the scenes always tend to be different by the time we play them than they are when they're written on the page... we always tend to find little nooks and crannies that, I think, make our relationship resonate with people." (Nerd HQ Conversations with SA, page 151 of Behind the Mask thread)

 

-- As an example of how he and  EBR take time to make sure their relationship comes off as realistic and natural as possible through little touches, SA: “I think when I left in 3x09 last year, I don’t think it was scripted that I kissed her on the forehead.” He went on to say that, “With Emily, it always tended to be little physical things, like, her touching my shoulder, or her mentioning that she dyes her hair.” (Hypable article, page 64 of Starling City Times thread)

Edited July 20, 2015 by tv echo

[ladylaw99]

This is what I loved about their relationship.  It was the little things that caught my attention.

[romantic idiot]

Send me some of your confidence. Until this show and all the spin offs are off the air, I live in a constant state of ...not worry so much as vigilance. The thing I fear the most is Arrow ending wonderfully and then in some Flash episode a casual comment that rewrites everything.

 

The Girl in Question. *nods* I hear you. I'm hoping that's a Whedon thing they will avoid though, especially since it was badly received.

[TanyaKay]

I love SA's insights into how he and EBR have enhanced the Oliver & Felicity relationship through little, unscripted things...

 

-- On his fave thing about the Olicity relationship, SA: "That the scenes always tend to be different by the time we play them than they are when they're written on the page... we always tend to find little nooks and crannies that, I think, make our relationship resonate with people." (Nerd HQ Conversations with SA, page 151 of Behind the Mask thread)

 

-- As an example of how he and  EBR take time to make sure their relationship comes off as realistic and natural as possible through little touches, SA: “I think when I left in 3x09 last year, I don’t think it was scripted that I kissed her on the forehead.” He went on to say that, “With Emily, it always tended to be little physical things, like, her touching my shoulder, or her mentioning that she dyes her hair.” (Hypable article, page 64 of Starling City Times thread)

 

The forehead kiss was actually written in the script, Marc Guggenheim has shared that after the episode was aired.

[tv echo]

Laura Hurley writes about Oliver & Laurel's relationship and chemistry...

 

anonymous asks:
Hello Laura - You are phenomenal! I am thoroughly impressed w/ your clarity of thought & skill to express those thoughts in a respectful & insightful manner. Do you think the L/O relationship was doomed from the start? Telling the audience about a couple's love can't compare w/ witnessing a couple actually falling in love (Olicity). No self-respecting woman I know would stay w/ a man who committed infidelity multiple times and w/ her own sister. There was just too much baggage.
Jul 21, 2015 4:10 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/124686143911/hello-laura-you-are-phenomenal-i-am-thoroughly

 

anonymous asks:
I don't see how that last ask you got can blame Stephen for the lack of chemistry between him and KC. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if she thinks Stephen's not a great actor that's their right but I tend to think that the problem is KC because she seems to lack chemistry with almost everyone in the whole cast not just Stephen, her scenes with David and Emily ranged from yawn inducing to cringeworthy and I blame her because David and Emily are fantastic actors.
Jul 22, 2015 12:02 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/124756236985/i-dont-see-how-that-last-ask-you-got-can-blame

[Angel12d]

Laura Hurley writes about Oliver & Laurel's relationship and chemistry...

 

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/124686143911/hello-laura-you-are-phenomenal-i-am-thoroughly

 

This one describes my thoughts exactly, especially the last paragraph. 

[TrueMyth]

Brought this over from the News thread:

I agree about not having her own story.I think they had the idea of her story being about exploring a life outside the arrow cave and Oliver but it got lost in the love triangle.The reason for that IMO is that they had to sell Ray as a superhero with his own future spinoff at the same time instead of using him to serve Felicity's storyline like he should have done.And it backfired on them because he was no where near popular enough to carry his own show.So they had to bringing in Sara and make it a team up.I just know they were planning on making the show about the ATOM.

I think both Ray and Felicity's story would have been better sold if they had paced things differently.  They started with Ray really trying to work within the system, fundraise, connect with the mayor, ect.  I think they should have kept him there and cut out the secretive suit stuff for at least season 3A.  It would have allowed Felicity to focus more on connecting with the outside world through people other than Ray.  Ray could have had a few more scenes with someone like Quentin or Oliver regarding the transfer of the company.

 

Then, when the Arrow disappears and Brick rises, THAT's when Ray should have built the suit.  His regular channels stuff wasn't working since the mayor folded like a fan, we could have learned about Anna with him confessing to Felicity AS A FRIEND.  It would have made Felicity's choice to help him build the suit give her that much more ownership of the ATOM suit, since she'd be around for the inception of the idea.

 

All this time, they really should have developed AT LEAST Felicity's relationship with her EA so that she'd have someone outside Arrow life besides Ray to talk to.

[tangerine95]

I agree.The biggest problem with Ray for me was how he only had scenes with Felicity most of the season.There's no point in having him be a foil for Oliver if they never share scenes.Thats why he worked best in 3.19 when he was allowed interact with him and Diggle.

[Angel12d]

Strangely enough, Ray only worked when he was in scenes with Oliver and the one he had with Laurel. He needed a 'straight guy' to contrast his personality. Before s3 started I remember MG saying he wanted someone that spoke on Felicity's level and kept up with her brain and her rambles. But when Ray was with Felicity, the two of them together were like white noise because they both spoke really fast and were more energetic than everyone else. It just didn't work.

 

There was a lot of things wrong with how they chose to present Ray and Felicity as a pairing but I think they failed from the start. They were too similar in many ways.

[tangerine95]

Its probbably my intense dislike for Laurel but his scenes with her didn't work for me as much as I've seen people say that it worked for them.I don't think I've ever seen a lawyer on TV act as smug as Laurel in any courtroom scene on the show.Ray was just being so obnoxious that episode he made Laurel look good.

But I agree he needs a straight man for his humor to work.With Felicity it was just fast talking tech babble and stalking.

Edited July 23, 2015 by tangerine95

[Angel12d]

I actually think Laurel works better as a lawyer though and in that scene with Ray I was totally on her side. He was a giant douchebag. Granted, I never liked Ray but he was his worst in that episode. 

[kismet]

I think if we had never seen FS interact with Barry or Cisco & watch them have some nerd/geek uber babble, then maybe her & Ray might have had a shot. She was just so much more authentic & better with friendly banter with Barry & even Cisco, than she was with Ray. But honestly, I never saw her & RP talking at the same pace or level. For starters, he constantly needed her intelligence and help to solve stuff. Then when she would solve it, he would be all like anything you can do, I can do better. Which is just ridiculous! Accept her help, respect it & acknowledge it to others. That is the one thing I always loved about OQ is that he may not have always agreed with FS, but he always respected her opinion.

 

There is no need to prove who is smarter or better. Which is how I feel RP is with everyone, but especially FS. I felt like it was always a competition between RP & FS. And not the cute & adorable couple competition that is enjoyable to watch. It was always too saccharine or RP just seemed a little out of place that FS was essentially beat him or was better than him. It just was not fun banter in my opinion. They were too similar with no spark. Honestly, jello is an apt description of their relationship. Too sugary, no real substance, melts/dissolves into nothing when left out & has no nutritional value.

[BkWurm1]

There is no need to prove who is smarter or better. Which is how I feel RP is with everyone, but especially FS. I felt like it was always a competition between RP & FS. And not the cute & adorable couple competition that is enjoyable to watch.

 

Yeah, there was a scene after they were together where Felicity has pulled off something special and instead of thanking her, Ray is checking her work like there is no way she got it right.  Didn't like that. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, there was a scene after they were together where Felicity has pulled off something special and instead of thanking her, Ray is checking her work like there is no way she got it right.  Didn't like that.

That's because he's an insecure pathetic condescending misogynistic toad. Whom I shall never forgive or watch on any of the Flarrow shows.

[Angel12d]

Yeah, there was a scene after they were together where Felicity has pulled off something special and instead of thanking her, Ray is checking her work like there is no way she got it right.  Didn't like that. 

 

The moment he said he was used to being the smartest person in the room, he was dead to me. Haha. I'm being dramatic but ew. So gross. And then when he mentioned his IQ and his numerous PhD's I was like 'GTFO' douchebag. 

[lexicon]

The moment he said he was used to being the smartest person in the room, he was dead to me. Haha. I'm being dramatic but ew. So gross. And then when he mentioned his IQ and his numerous PhD's I was like 'GTFO' douchebag. 

 

For me he was a no go from the moment he uttered his first "BTW".

 

I still cringe to this day to think that man was meant to be a romantic foil to Oliver. Yuck

[Angel12d]

For me he was a no go from the moment he uttered his first "BTW".

 

I still cringe to this day to think that man was meant to be a romantic foil to Oliver. Yuck

 

Haha. Yes. That was pretty cringe-worthy. 

 

This is the trouble. There was never any competition and that's one of the reasons why it was so weak. The whole thing was pointless. I get why they did it but it was unnecessary. I don't know when writers will ever realize that love triangles are boring and useless to all involved. Never probably.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Angel12d

[lemotomato]

For me he was a no go from the moment he uttered his first "BTW".

 

I still cringe to this day to think that man was meant to be a romantic foil to Oliver. Yuck

See, they could have made him a decent romantic foil to Oliver-- handsome, but awkward. Brainy instead of brawny. Intent on saving Starling through legal, civic channels instead of outside the law.

 

But awkward crossed the line into creepy. Then they put him on a salmon ladder. And finally, he revealed that his endgame was to be a wanna-be vigilante. Instead of a foil, be became a pale imitator.

 

I gave up on Felicity/Ray when they had him do the salmon ladder shirtless for no reason and gave him Oliver's "save my city" intro to be his speech at the Palmer Inc press conference.

Edited July 24, 2015 by lemotomato

[tangerine95]

The whole thing with Ray was just way too heavy handed.He came of as creepy and annoying instead of charming.And I was one of those people who were happy Felicity was getting a LI in when they announced it.They did a good job with Barry,both in setting him up for a spinoff and with his relationship with Felicity.I don't get how they could fail so much with Ray.And its not even that only MG was at fault,AK wrote him just as bad in the Flash crossover.

[tv echo]

I'm tired of reading fan complaints that S3 was too melodramatic and more 'soap opera-y' than previous seasons.  Unless you want a show that's only about action, fighting and stunts, there's going to be relationships - and relationships not only make the characters three-dimensional, but also create drama.  Let's compare seasons...

 

Someone returns from the dead - S1, S2, S3
Love triangle - S1, S3 (even S2 arguably)
Sexual sister-swapping - S1, S2

Infidelity - S1, S2
Kidnapping of loved one - S1, S2, S3
Death of parent - S1, S2
Death of sibling - S1, S3
Death of child - S1, S3
Death of spouse - S1, S3
Death of lover - S1, S2, S3

Murder - S1, S2, S3
Suicide - S1

Alcohol/drug addiction - S1, S2
Heartbreak - S1, S2, S3
Someone seeks revenge - S1, S2, S3
Someone cries - S1, S2, S3
Someone throws a temper tantrum - S1, S2, S3
Someone dies saving loved one - S1, S2, S3
Someone is betrayed - S1, S2, S3
One-night stand - S1, S2
Sex with loved one - S1, S2, S3
Angry mistress of married man - S2
Secret love child - S2, S3

Unexpected appearance of identical twin of dead lover - S3
Drive off into the sunset - S3
Family relationship drama - S1, S2, S3
Sibling relationship drama - S1, S2, S3
Romantic relationship drama - S1, S2, S3
Shocking plot twists - S1, S2, S3

 

(ETA: Menrva's addition. Thx!)

Edited July 24, 2015 by tv echo