S12.E16: Assistance Is Futile

[PMPA]

46 minutes ago, Droogie said:

Well, I actually live near Pittsburgh and I can tell you, whichever sport is first in fans' minds depends on what season it is.  And right now, Penguins flags are flying with fervor.  We love Crosby and Fleury (And Haglin.  And Kessel.  And Bonino -- the HBK line!) but we loved the days of Lemieux as well.

Lots of people made great points.  I have nothing profound to add.  The COTV was beyond ridiculous, and borderline offensive, but I expected nothing less from Virgil Williams.  The ending, with JJ and Rossi somehow correlating Reid's horrible predicament with the Cubs' series win was absolutely baffling, made Reid's situation seem trivial and only seemed to be a way for Virgil to insert himself into the show.  Color me annoyed and unimpressed.

I for one appreciated and was moved by the opening scenes with Reid and JJ.  For a long time the show has played lip-service to their BFF-ness but it didn't really ring true for me, but I feel like I saw it in their scene when JJ visited Spencer.  MGG hit a home run with his acting in this, and Virgil wrote this scene better than I expected.  There should've been more to it, more exposition -- and more in general of the Reid story -- but I wasn't too displeased with what I received.  EXCEPT.  I hate the way they left it at the end.  My images for the next week have to be Reid being attacked in his cell -- the gentle genius, once again running the gauntlet to draw attention away from someone else, taking their punishment.  The CM whipping boy, indeed.  But Matthew Gray Gubler is a force.  I'm glad he's getting to flex his (pretty) thespian muscle.

That's all I've got.  Next week, hurry up and get here, so I can wipe a couple of these images outta my brain.

I think I recall seeing a picture from set some weeks ago that looked like it might be a hospital bed set up.  So my guess would be that Reid does get beaten up and ends up in the infirmary.  If thats the case, who visits will be interesting.  I'm guessing that Alvez will.  Somehow any of the newbies showing concern for him, does not work for me, hence why the scenes with Reid and JJ stood out for me.

[BellyLaughter]

7 hours ago, zannej said:

I forgot that the episode was on and only caught the last 5 minutes so I had to watch it online later. I tried to watch the parts I had missed without fastforwarding, but there was a LOT of boring stuff with the unsub menacing the victim and a lot of gore that wasn't necessary-- very fake looking gore I might add. The supposedly broken fingers looked like a fake rubber hand.

This was yet another torture porn episode. And we also had a case where the BAU didn't even have to solve it because the mother came forward. When she brought her son's journal in, I couldn't help but think that Reid would have been all over it and would have been analyzing it like the journal in Limelight.

I still thought the escalation to wanting to break bones because his father left him, he was awkward, and his mother gave him drugs didn't quite add up.

I actually thought the actress playing the mother did fine and I liked Alvez in this-- although he got way more screentime and contribution than the rest of the team. It almost seemed like Alvez was in charge because I barely remember Prentiss even being there. She and Tara were rather subdued. I'm glad they gave Rossi more to do, but I wish they could balance the team equally.

I thought it was a little odd that JJ actually stayed behind on the case--but I was hopeful that Reid would actually offer some insight when she told him about it. But instead they had Reid being utterly useless and being dumb enough to tell a guard in front of other inmates under the pretense of asking for more water-- which was really dumb, IMO.

I actually think Reid is stronger than JJ gave him credit for. And I wonder if the blood results were from the test taken when Reid got back to the US and whether or not any tests from Mexico are still forthcoming.

I also noticed that a LOT of the dialog was delivered as line-reading rather than people understanding or investing in what they were saying (particularly when "profiling").

Also, I really wish Garcia would stop with the "Newbie" stuff. I just find the "banter" between her and Alvez to be unprofessional and unenjoyable. I don't want Garcia to be hitting on him, but it would be nice if she just stopped treating him like that. If it came off more that they were good friends who were just messing with one another, that would be fine-- but it doesn't come across that way.

I was thinking that when JJ visited it would have been a good opportunity for him to mention that he's not in protective custody and that guard Wilkins was threatening to expose him-- BUT then I realized that he probably knew it would freak JJ out and he was trying to avoid upsetting her. I think that is something he would have to say to Prentiss, Rossi, or his lawyer (or all 3).

In some ways I like that Reid actually did something to protect the poor guy who was being bullied. And I wonder if he expected to get a beating for it or if he thought his prison buddy would protect him. If he expected he might get beat up-- maybe it would be likely they would put him in protective custody afterward. It would be something his lawyer would fight for.

But overall, that whole arc is being handled badly because it does not come anywhere close to what would happen in real life. I know it is fiction, but it goes beyond suspension of disbelief.

I'm not sure what to make of the former Fed who is in prison with Reid. His personality seemed totally different in this episode and he was more of a dick. Still debating on whether he will ultimately turn out to be an enemy or not.

I just wish they would end the arc already. I don't like stories that drag out-- especially when they don't dedicate the necessary time to it and they end up splitting the focus.

I was cringing at how cheesy the Cubs world series thing with Rossi and JJ was. I don't like sports and I knew about the Cubs winning. I'm going to just fanwank that JJ was indulging Rossi's mansplaining to be polite because he was obviously excited about it-- but the whole "hope" message made me gag the way it was delivered. Also, there were baseball fans who died while never seeing their team win-- what if Reid dies while waiting to get out of prison? I don't think that will happen, but it's where my mind went. Reid can't afford to wait 100 years. It just wasn't a good comparison and the amount of cheese involved was unpleasant. I like to eat cheese-- not see cheesy crap on TV.

Editing to add that I think Erica often likes to express "alternative facts". :P

This has been an issue on this show from day 1!! 

[Hotchgirl18]

6 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Perhaps the specifics would be different but I would have assumed "the big arc" for this year would have been Hotch's. Reid's I imagine would likely have concluded in February if Hotch were still around.

Well, just look where that went. *sighs and slams door angrily* 

7 hours ago, JMO said:

Ah, okay, it was Erica.  I am the holder of the apparently unpopular opinion that she does not 'lie', but simply 'spins'.  So I agree that she would not have described it as a Reid story, if it had not been intended as such from the very beginning.

She does more spinning than that wheel on Wheel of Fortune.

[Droogie]

4 minutes ago, PMPA said:

I think I recall seeing a picture from set some weeks ago that looked like it might be a hospital bed set up.  So my guess would be that Reid does get beaten up and ends up in the infirmary.  If thats the case, who visits will be interesting.  I'm guessing that Alvez will.  Somehow any of the newbies showing concern for him, does not work for me, hence why the scenes with Reid and JJ stood out for me.

Yeah, I don't think so.  IIRC, that was no hospital infirmary -- it was an actual hospital room.  Reid looks well enough in the promo for the next ep, so I don't think he ended up in the hospital.

5 minutes ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Well, just look where that went. *sighs and slams door angrily* 

She does more spinning than that wheel on Wheel of Fortune.

This was always going to be a big arc for Spencer, discussed last season during Morgan's exit storyline. However long or short it would've been, or whether there would've been an additional story for Hotch, remains anyone's guess.  But like others have said, Erica may "spin," but there is no reason to think she blatantly lies.

[Mariana]

15 minutes ago, PMPA said:

I think I recall seeing a picture from set some weeks ago that looked like it might be a hospital bed set up.  So my guess would be that Reid does get beaten up and ends up in the infirmary.  If thats the case, who visits will be interesting.  I'm guessing that Alvez will.  Somehow any of the newbies showing concern for him, does not work for me, hence why the scenes with Reid and JJ stood out for me.

That picture was from Alpha Male.

[PMPA]

7 minutes ago, Mariana said:

That picture was from Alpha Male.

Cannot say one way or another.  I just recall seeing it.  No idea when it was posted, just putting a theory out there. 

[LadyMustang65]

Did I miss something?  Why is Reid still in genpop?  He was slated to be in protective custody.  Did the guards in that section just shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well" when their third prisoner didn't show up?  Has Reid's lawyer not been to see him since he went in?  Why the heck didn't she take care of getting him out?  And why the hell didn't JJ?  Does she really think it's somehow normal that he would be in genpop?  Did it really never occur to Reid to say "hey, there's been a mix-up; can you look into it for me?"  I can suspend disbelief with the best of them usually, but this entire prison thing is beyond even my ability to not WTF? every week.  Did I miss something that explains why everyone is just content to let an FBI agent stay in the general population and not get him into protective custody?

[PMPA]

19 minutes ago, Droogie said:

Yeah, I don't think so.  IIRC, that was no hospital infirmary -- it was an actual hospital room.  Reid looks well enough in the promo for the next ep, so I don't think he ended up in the hospital.

This was always going to be a big arc for Spencer, discussed last season during Morgan's exit storyline. However long or short it would've been, or whether there would've been an additional story for Hotch, remains anyone's guess.  But like others have said, Erica may "spin," but there is no reason to think she blatantly lies.

Question.  What is IIRC?  I'm sure its something very obvious :).  Re: picture.  Maybe. I cannot remember when it appeared, just wondered if it was connected.  One thing though that I've seen some people comment on - the promo for this week, turned out to be the very last scene of the episode.  So Reid looking OK, might not be as straight forward.  Guess its a wait and see game. 

[LadyMustang65]

IIRC = If I recall correctly.  :)

[PMPA]

1 minute ago, LadyMustang65 said:

IIRC = If I recall correctly.  :)

Ha, knew it was something obvious.  Must be showing my age.  I still type out entire words on text messages.  Thank you.

[LadyMustang65]

Me too, PMPA.  I'm getting better with the acronyms, but there are still a few that make me go huh?  This is one of the ones I know (obviously).  < lol >

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The sad thing is, they wasted an actual decent case in this episode.  If it was a stand-alone, I would have little to actually complain about - aside from the visual nastiness of the broken bones.  But since they are running it against the big Reid storyline, I just couldn't find a single F to give about it and was bored by most of it.

Please, writers, lets have more&more&more! of the non-flirting flirtatious banter between Garcia and Alvez.  It's oh so much joy!  [/heavy sarcasm]

Scenes like the ones that Reid & JJ shared this hour were some proof that I think the writers and showrunners missed opportunity(s) in the past that would/could have been 'Jencer'.  Best scenes of the episode, regardless.  Although, being a lifelong Cubs fan, I appreciated the Rossi & JJ scene.

That said, these writers are driving me around the bend when they have characters saying that hope is all they had right then for getting Spencer out of prison & proving him innocent.  That's a huge disservice to them, and the team, as characters - but then they've appeared this way the whole arc (so far).  Instead of doing everything they can to find Scratch and proving Reid's innocence, they just continue to make activity charts and "hope" he'll be ok in prison & that things will work out at some point in the future.

Another huge character assassination is dumbing Reid down enough to the point he actively seeks out trouble.  HP's character tells him to keep his head down and he'd be under his protection, but no, he invites action against him. 

Despite my disappointment in how it happened, it wasn't easy to watch him get beat.  MGG's portrayal and effort continues to be a highlight in this series....... if only the creative team didn't do their all to ruin those solid and believable performances.

[R3volver]

18 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

The sad thing is, they wasted an actual decent case in this episode.  If it was a stand-alone, I would have little to actually complain about - aside from the visual nastiness of the broken bones.  But since they are running it against the big Reid storyline, I just couldn't find a single F to give about it and was bored by most of it.

Please, writers, lets have more&more&more! of the non-flirting flirtatious banter between Garcia and Alvez.  It's oh so much joy!  [/heavy sarcasm]

Scenes like the ones that Reid & JJ shared this hour were some proof that I think the writers and showrunners missed opportunity(s) in the past that would/could have been 'Jencer'.  Best scenes of the episode, regardless.  Although, being a lifelong Cubs fan, I appreciated the Rossi & JJ scene.

That said, these writers are driving me around the bend when they have characters saying that hope is all they had right then for getting Spencer out of prison & proving him innocent.  That's a huge disservice to them, and the team, as characters - but then they've appeared this way the whole arc (so far).  Instead of doing everything they can to find Scratch and proving Reid's innocence, they just continue to make activity charts and "hope" he'll be ok in prison & that things will work out at some point in the future.

Another huge character assassination is dumbing Reid down enough to the point he actively seeks out trouble.  HP's character tells him to keep his head down and he'd be under his protection, but no, he invites action against him. 

Despite my disappointment in how it happened, it wasn't easy to watch him get beat.  MGG's portrayal and effort continues to be a highlight in this series....... if only the creative team didn't do their all to ruin those solid and believable performances.

5

It almost seems like the writers have realized this.  It could just be the circumstances, but something is different. Not that I think they're going to go there.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 minutes ago, R3volver said:

It almost seems like the writers have realized this.  It could just be the circumstances, but something is different. Not that I think they're going to go there.

I saw it too - also how it seemed to really effect JJ even afterwards - and thought about expanding on the original comment, but I chalked it up to my own fanon wishes jumping to the forefront.

[R3volver]

6 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I saw it too - also how it seemed to really effect JJ even afterwards - and thought about expanding on the original comment, but I chalked it up to my own fanon wishes jumping to the forefront.

 

I too thought maybe it's just wishful thinking because I've always liked the chemistry.  It's just odd because we've seen her worry about him before, but it's never been this emphasized or focused on this much.  It made me wonder if Rossi picked up on something because I can't imagine him asking JJ what's going on with her when he's fully aware of the situation.  Or maybe AJ has just turned it up a notch.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 minutes ago, R3volver said:

I too thought maybe it's just wishful thinking because I've always liked the chemistry.  It's just odd because we've seen her worry about him before, but it's never been this emphasized or focused on this much.  It made me wonder if Rossi picked up on something because I can't imagine him asking JJ what's going on with her when he's fully aware of the situation.  Or maybe AJ has just turned it up a notch.

They really had Rossi come off as a fool if his question was him just not displaying any situational awareness.

Until they show more - like JJ being distant at home with Will because of constant concern for Reid - then I doubt the writer's will upset status quo and "go there" with 'Jencer' in the future. 

But if the Reid/JJ scenes like the ones in this episode help fuel fanfic writers, I'm ok with it.

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, Droogie said:

Well, I actually live near Pittsburgh and I can tell you, whichever sport is first in fans' minds depends on what season it is.  And right now, Penguins flags are flying with fervor.  We love Crosby and Fleury (And Haglin.  And Kessel.  And Bonino -- the HBK line!) but we loved the days of Lemieux as well.

Hagelin, by the way. :P

Also, I know you're probably not fond of that period, but I always liked Aleksey Morozov and Ryan Malone.

I visited Pittsburgh once, in October of 2007. My buddy and I were bored and knew the Leafs were playing the Penguins the next day. So we hurriedly and excitedly bought tickets...only to realize afterward the game wasn't in Toronto. So we went on a road trip, and it was fun (except that the Penguins lost, 5-2. It was Jiri Tlusty's first NHL goal, by the way).

Anyway, I remember a lot of Penguin stuff around town, but also a lot of Steeler stuff. Don't get me wrong, I never doubted that Pittsburgh loved hockey- I just thought the Steelers were the obvious No. 1. It's a better situation than in New Orleans, where you'll see Saints stuff everywhere and no one seems aware the basketball team exists (but I was told by a local the Pelicans do get some love once the Saints' season is done).

So...I stand corrected.

[Loves2Dance]

I have been an avid Criminal Minds fan since season 1 but mostly lurk on the forums, that said, I just can't with this show anymore and it's making me sad. From the played out Scratch and nothing but women hating, the chemistry is horrible and the writing has just gotten bad, bad, bad. 

[Mislav]

Torturing Reid. Again. Excuse me while I go to throw up.

[autumnmountains]

Cross-posting. I'm lazy:

Finally got around to watching this episode. I closed Wednesday at my job and cleaned the house yesterday. 

Like many of you, I can't comment much on the case itself. Reid's plot is far more interesting. 

What I did gather from the case: 

- unsub as a child was very troubled and had a disturbing fascination with bones being broken. In particular, his mom's. 

-As an adult, he kidnapped and tortured women, breaking their bones and killing them.

----One of the things I am most squeamish about is broken bones. Secondly, is people falling from high distances. So, the case wasn't one I could really view all that well. One of my sisters broke her neck falling from a tree when we were kids. She lived and isn't paralyzed or anything, though it was a very close call. Anyway, cases involving broken bones or falling just aren't my thing. 

---someone mentioned that it seemed odd that Miranda broke her arm/wrist falling from a 3 foot ladder. I found that odd too, but as that would be my luck (and I actually DO have a bone disease), I didn't question it much until now. So thanks, whomever posted that. 

-----

The Reid scenes were far superior to the case. While I'm glad someone is visiting him, I, perhaps selfishly, wish it were someone else. Sorry, but I just can't buy JJ and him being best friends. That's neither here nor there though in regards to this episode, so I won't go into it. 

I thought Matthew did a wonderful job displaying his emotions as he played Reid trying to not look like he's being overcome by emotion. 

I liked Henry's picture a lot. I wonder what he's being told about his godfather's absence. 

I'm in agreement with those who think that Reid deliberately set himself up to look like a snitch so that the prison gang would go after him and stop focusing on Louis. It was simply something Spencer would do-and as pointed out, occurred right after "I know how to deal with psychopaths" or however he said it. 

Man! I mean, obviously I watched the promo, so I knew he was going to get attacked again, but that ending. *gulp* 

I too, was baffled at Rossi comparing an innocent man, a friend, being thrown into prison and the Cubs winning after 108 years. That doesn't even compute! 

-----

Regarding the promo, Alvez says something on the lines of "I don't want Reid to get hurt again." Or something like that. I wonder if the attack we started to see in this episode was so bad that they had to notify someone or if Alvez came for his turn at visiting Reid.

Edited March 17, 2017 by autumnmountains

[SSAHotchner]

23 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Me too, PMPA.  I'm getting better with the acronyms, but there are still a few that make me go huh?  This is one of the ones I know (obviously).  < lol >

I just ask my kids. They always know. :)

[SSAHotchner]

I thought the case and the writing sucked. Virgil is not a good writer. He lacks imagination, creativity and the skill to effectively tie elements together. I am sick to death of the absentee parent being the cause of someone's turn to crime. If that were the case, we'd have thousands of serial killers. I'm only watching right now because of Reid, so I'll admit that his portion of the episode is what interests me. They'd have to have a really good case, you know like in seasons 1-4, to really grab and hold my attention, and the few episodes I've watched this season aren't cutting it. 

Here's how I think the current writers (or most of them anyway) write an episode. 

1. Try to think of a bizarre and/or gruesome way to kill people

2. Try to come up with a reason for someone to want to kill people that way, that will also somewhat excuse their behavior and garner some pity for the killer rather than the innocent victims.

3. Use graphic photos and action to make up for the fact that you can't come up with clever insights and dialogue

I have no idea what they're planning to do with Reid. I suspect they're figuring this is the end for the show. But at least we're getting some focus on him for a change and MGG is doing a phenomenal job with his acting. I can't comment much on the newer characters. They just don't interest me all that much, but I blame the writing. Even Paget is failing to have a strong presence this season. 

As for the Cubs bit, no one was happier for them when they won than I was. Wish my parents had lived long enough to see the victory. But the scene was completely cheesy. I also thought it was a poor move to have Rossi say he wasn't from Chicago. You can tell it by his speech. What would be wrong with that? Oh, yeah, because they had to dig up (no pun intended) the dead war buddy again. (rolls eyes) 

[Hotchgirl18]

7 minutes ago, SSAHotchner said:

I thought the case and the writing sucked. Virgil is not a good writer. He lacks imagination, creativity and the skill to effectively tie elements together. I am sick to death of the absentee parent being the cause of someone's turn to crime. If that were the case, we'd have thousands of serial killers. I'm only watching right now because of Reid, so I'll admit that his portion of the episode is what interests me. They'd have to have a really good case, you know like in seasons 1-4, to really grab and hold my attention, and the few episodes I've watched this season aren't cutting it. 

Here's how I think the current writers (or most of them anyway) write an episode. 

1. Try to think of a bizarre and/or gruesome way to kill people

2. Try to come up with a reason for someone to want to kill people that way, that will also somewhat excuse their behavior and garner some pity for the killer rather than the innocent victims.

3. Use graphic photos and action to make up for the fact that you can't come up with clever insights and dialogue

I have no idea what they're planning to do with Reid. I suspect they're figuring this is the end for the show. But at least we're getting some focus on him for a change and MGG is doing a phenomenal job with his acting. I can't comment much on the newer characters. They just don't interest me all that much, but I blame the writing. Even Paget is failing to have a strong presence this season. 

As for the Cubs bit, no one was happier for them when they won than I was. Wish my parents had lived long enough to see the victory. But the scene was completely cheesy. I also thought it was a poor move to have Rossi say he wasn't from Chicago. You can tell it by his speech. What would be wrong with that? Oh, yeah, because they had to dig up (no pun intended) the dead war buddy again. (rolls eyes) 

Virgil is as much of a writer as I am a college athlete. ? It's not good. 

Also, I miss Hotch and it isn't the same. 

[ReidFan]

On 3/16/2017 at 9:46 PM, Mariana said:

That picture was from Alpha Male.

yes it was. Karen Maser tweeted it the week they were filming it.

[PMPA]

7 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

yes it was. Karen Maser tweeted it the week they were filming it.

Well I guess that clears that up.  Like I said, it was just a recall of a picture at some point and wondering if it was connected to upcoming story. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

23 hours ago, R3volver said:

I too thought maybe it's just wishful thinking because I've always liked the chemistry.  It's just odd because we've seen her worry about him before, but it's never been this emphasized or focused on this much.  It made me wonder if Rossi picked up on something because I can't imagine him asking JJ what's going on with her when he's fully aware of the situation.  Or maybe AJ has just turned it up a notch.

After some more thought on this, it had to be an intentional nod to just how much the situation is affecting JJ, because I can't believe - even as bad the writers can be - that they would have Rossi look as stupid as he did (without any noticeable contextual evidence to the contrary).

I need to clarify an earlier comment, that being that I appreciated the Rossi&JJ scene because of being a Cubs fan.  While I appreciated the Cubs mention, the comparison just didn't work. 

And while I don't have a problem with JJ's given choice of sports fanaticism and whether it might contradict earlier mentions or not, I do have a problem with her not knowing the Cubs won the World Series (after a 108-year drought).  If you even just glance at the front page of the sports section in a news paper, watch local news broadcasts, or surf the internet news sites, or hell, even just happen overhear conversations around you - there's no way she didn't know or had heard/read about it.  There's just no way.   Even if she hadn't firsthand, I bet Will did, which he would have likely had made mention of at some point.   Huge disservice to her character and the seeming lack of awareness towards news-worthy events.  Also, Rossi is just now letting people know he followed and is aware of said event?   None of the others guys, on the team or around the office, never at one point said "Hey, did you see the Cubs finally won the World Series after 108 years?".   Sorry, but that bit just really bugs.

[ForeverAlone]

For me, the Cubs scene was completely gratuitous and rang false. Aside from the fact that the Cubs won the World Series months ago, the central reason for the scene (aside of course for any excuse to get anything Chicago into the episode) seemed to be that the team shouldn't give up hope that Reid will get out of jail because the Cubs won the World Series after a 108 year drought. Uh, is that sentiment supposed to be reassuring in any way? And how does one draw that sort of parallel in any case? 

I will wait until the end of the arc to fully evaluate, but right now, I am not liking the fact that Reid's arc is pretty much entirely separate from the rest of the team and we see no forward momentum on any sort of investigation. Yes, I get the show is dragging this storyline out until the finale (which means we have five more episodes of this to go), but I don't really care about Reid being made someone's prison bitch (or avoiding said fate). Whatever is going on in prison with Reid doesn't seem to have a larger bearing to the show (at least that part hasn't been made clear yet), so it feels like we are just marking time until the finale when all of this will be quickly (and likely implausibly given the history of this show) wrapped up and Reid will be somehow vindicated. 

[Willowy]

Virgil doesn't suck as a writer. His resume includes ER, and 24, just to name a few of the heavyweights he wrote for before coming to CM. He's respected within the industry and has been continuously employed for decades in a tiny town with very few jobs and a highly competitive and cutthroat job market.

I do think he's uneven. He'll write something like "Sick Day", which even though I don't care for Will, I still appreciated as extremely well-written. Then we remember he wrote "Bully" - a total washout, imo. 

This one wasn't up to par, and he can do better. I don't know if this is even remotely true, but it felt to me as though he was told to dial back the Reid in this one. Almost like they were putting out feelers as to how the viewers would react. That's completely a guess on my part, but going back to what I was saying, I do believe he's a very good writer when he's on his game. His episodes typically have a lot of 'heart'. That's important to me.

[MMC]

17 minutes ago, Willowy said:

Virgil doesn't suck as a writer. His resume includes ER, and 24, just to name a few of the heavyweights he wrote for before coming to CM. He's respected within the industry and has been continuously employed for decades in a tiny town with very few jobs and a highly competitive and cutthroat job market.

I do think he's uneven. He'll write something like "Sick Day", which even though I don't care for Will, I still appreciated as extremely well-written. Then we remember he wrote "Bully" - a total washout, imo. 

This one wasn't up to par, and he can do better. I don't know if this is even remotely true, but it felt to me as though he was told to dial back the Reid in this one. Almost like they were putting out feelers as to how the viewers would react. That's completely a guess on my part, but going back to what I was saying, I do believe he's a very good writer when he's on his game. His episodes typically have a lot of 'heart'. That's important to me.

So what would be the purpose to see whether or not the story line itself is the problem or the focus Reid himself is getting. I just can't buy it would be the latter. Now of course the Reid haters/critics are going to claim that he is the problem. But most of the complaints I have seen has been about the story line itself.

[Willowy]

Beats me. I've seen as many people loving this as much as hating it. Everyone seems to hate that Reid is in prison, but are buying into the heightened drama that it's creating. Nobody wants to see our man hurt. But that's what's happening so there's a divide. I haven't seen anyone saying that Reid is 'the problem'. Have you?

[MMC]

1 hour ago, Willowy said:

Beats me. I've seen as many people loving this as much as hating it. Everyone seems to hate that Reid is in prison, but are buying into the heightened drama that it's creating. Nobody wants to see our man hurt. But that's what's happening so there's a divide. I haven't seen anyone saying that Reid is 'the problem'. Have you?

Yes a few here and there. One person in particular seemed to want to claim that both were the problem. But this particular person is known to be highly critical of both MGG and his character even though she tried to claim otherwise. However she and others like her seem to be in the minority. As far as I can see more people tend to have the view that you've described.

[Mislav]

Let's be honest, Virgil is a bad writer-for Criminal Minds. His works in ER and 24 have no relevance to this. His only good Criminal Minds episodes (in my opinion) have been "Hostage" and "Sick Day".

 

 

Yes, I know there is no exact definition of "bad writer" or "bad episode". But when you tend to have the unsub take up 50 percent of screen time and not include much profiling in a show about Criminal profilers, most of the fans won't like it. It is like making a CSI episode where we know the killer from the beginning and the killer is caught through, I don't know, criminal profiling (LOL) instead of forensic science.

 

 

I think the writing team should consist entirely of Sharon Lee Watson (unfortunately, she left after season eleven), Breen Frazier, Kirsten Vangsness, and Erica Messer (but only when she co-writes with Kirsten).

Edited March 18, 2017 by Mislav

[SSAHotchner]

I'm entitled to my opinion and in my opinion Virgil sucks. None of the episodes you mentioned, in my opinion, compares favorably with even the worst episodes in seasons 1-5. His writing is weak and his public behavior is childish. 

[Willowy]

Ha, I'll be sure to pass that along.

[Danielg342]

18 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

If you even just glance at the front page of the sports section in a news paper, watch local news broadcasts, or surf the internet news sites, or hell, even just happen overhear conversations around you - there's no way she didn't know or had heard/read about it.

It wasn't just front page on the sports pages- it was also front-page news on CTV, one of Canada's major news stations. No doubt other publications followed suit.

I could understand if the Cubs weren't referenced until mid-November, because I could argue logistics. Last week? I'm sure they had earlier chances to write it in.

[Hotchgirl18]

Can someone explain when the Cubs played and what's the big deal about winning the world series? Hahaha . 

[Danielg342]

4 minutes ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Can someone explain when the Cubs played and what's the big deal about winning the world series? Hahaha . 

There are four "major" sports in North America- football, baseball, basketball and hockey. There are those who throw in golf, tennis and soccer but they are debated.

Anyway, the World Series is baseball's championship, and it concludes in late October/early November. It is so named because baseball technically has two "top leagues"- the American and the National League- who are essentially part of a conglomerate known as Major League Baseball.

The Cubs play in the National League, and, before 2016, had last won the World Series in 1908. The Series then was in its infancy, having only been played for five years prior.

Anyway, the gap between the Cubs' last two victories is the longest of any in the major sports, it being so long that the last time the Cubs had won a Series, none of the other major league sports had been created (the National Hockey League was founded in 1917, the National Football League came into being in 1921 and the National Basketball Association started in 1946).

[Hotchgirl18]

1 minute ago, Danielg342 said:

There are four "major" sports in North America- football, baseball, basketball and hockey. There are those who throw in golf, tennis and soccer but they are debated.

Anyway, the World Series is baseball's championship, and it concludes in late October/early November. It is so named because baseball technically has two "top leagues"- the American and the National League- who are essentially part of a conglomerate known as Major League Baseball.

The Cubs play in the National League, and, before 2016, had last won the World Series in 1908. The Series then was in its infancy, having only been played for five years prior.

Anyway, the gap between the Cubs' last two victories is the longest of any in the major sports, it being so long that the last time the Cubs had won a Series, none of the other major league sports had been created (the National Hockey League was founded in 1917, the National Football League came into being in 1921 and the National Basketball Association started in 1946).

Ok. See, I'm behind a piano all the time and I really don't know anything about sports. March Madness is going on right now, apparently. 

[R3volver]

21 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

After some more thought on this, it had to be an intentional nod to just how much the situation is affecting JJ, because I can't believe - even as bad the writers can be - that they would have Rossi look as stupid as he did (without any noticeable contextual evidence to the contrary).

I need to clarify an earlier comment, that being that I appreciated the Rossi&JJ scene because of being a Cubs fan.  While I appreciated the Cubs mention, the comparison just didn't work. 

And while I don't have a problem with JJ's given choice of sports fanaticism and whether it might contradict earlier mentions or not, I do have a problem with her not knowing the Cubs won the World Series (after a 108-year drought).  If you even just glance at the front page of the sports section in a news paper, watch local news broadcasts, or surf the internet news sites, or hell, even just happen overhear conversations around you - there's no way she didn't know or had heard/read about it.  There's just no way.   Even if she hadn't firsthand, I bet Will did, which he would have likely had made mention of at some point.   Huge disservice to her character and the seeming lack of awareness towards news-worthy events.  Also, Rossi is just now letting people know he followed and is aware of said event?   None of the others guys, on the team or around the office, never at one point said "Hey, did you see the Cubs finally won the World Series after 108 years?".   Sorry, but that bit just really bugs.

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking.  As a profiler, he shouldn't even need to ask that question unless it was a call-out.  I do appreciate that the writers have built this father/daughter type of relationship for Rossi and JJ.  It reminds me of Gideon and Reid.

Edited March 19, 2017 by R3volver

[Unkempt]

2 hours ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Can someone explain when the Cubs played and what's the big deal about winning the world series? Hahaha . 

The Cubs won the World Series back in November, and it was significant because they haven't won the World Series in over a century.  They broke a huge dry spell, and that's what makes it a big deal.  Lots of diehard Cubs fans have lived entire lives without seeing their team win the championship.  It may seem silly to someone who isn't a sports fan, but for those who love baseball, it's HUGE (I say this as a Red Sox fan that's married to a Royals fan, LOL!).

PLUS - and this is silly, but this was also SORT OF predicted in Back to the Future II.  They were off by a year, though.  :D

Edited March 19, 2017 by Unkempt

[Danielg342]

16 minutes ago, Unkempt said:

The Cubs won the World Series back in November, and it was significant because they haven't won the World Series in over a century.  They broke a huge dry spell, and that's what makes it a big deal.  Lots of diehard Cubs fans have lived entire lives without seeing their team win the championship.  It may seem silly to someone who isn't a sports fan, but for those who love baseball, it's HUGE (I say this as a Red Sox fan that's married to a Royals fan, LOL!).

PLUS - and this is silly, but this was also SORT OF predicted in Back to the Future II.  They were off by a year, though.  :D

I'm a Blue Jay guy (since '93). Your Red Sox had quite the spell too- and I was very happy for you when you broke it. I remember it like it was yesterday.

As for Back to the Future- they did have Chicago beat a Miami team. Which is kind of a miss...except that the Miami Marlins (then as the Florida Marlins) also beat the Cleveland Indians for their first World Series in 1997, in which Cleveland blew a 3-1 series lead (just like they did against Chicago).

[PMPA]

34 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm a Blue Jay guy (since '93). Your Red Sox had quite the spell too- and I was very happy for you when you broke it. I remember it like it was yesterday.

As for Back to the Future- they did have Chicago beat a Miami team. Which is kind of a miss...except that the Miami Marlins (then as the Florida Marlins) also beat the Cleveland Indians for their first World Series in 1997, in which Cleveland blew a 3-1 series lead (just like they did against Chicago).

I'm guessing you are a Torontonian..?  Used to live there for a while, just a few minutes from Rogers Center and went to one or two games. Tickets were a bit pricey so could not go as often as I would have liked. Enjoyed the after entertainment though!  Hope to be back there soon again.  

[CrimeFan12]

I've been watching you guys going around and around on this world series thing....lol.  I watched the episode again last night and enjoyed just as much as I did the first time.  If you actually listen to the conversation, JJ asked him what the flag meant.  I'm a baseball fan (Cleveland Indians) , but I didn't know the Cubs raised that flag after every win.  I would be like her, it's a blue W. He asked her how long it had been since they had won the series and she said it was at least 100 years.  She was more in the ballpark than I was. She was only off eight years...lol.  No where in that talk did it imply she had no clue who won the series.

[Danielg342]

27 minutes ago, PMPA said:

I'm guessing you are a Torontonian..?  Used to live there for a while, just a few minutes from Rogers Center and went to one or two games. Tickets were a bit pricey so could not go as often as I would have liked. Enjoyed the after entertainment though!  Hope to be back there soon again.  

Ahem. *SKYDOME*

I refuse to call it the Rogers...place. It will forever be the SkyDome in my heart.

Yes I do live in Toronto, but the Jays are the only local club I root for.

[PMPA]

18 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Ahem. *SKYDOME*

I refuse to call it the Rogers...place. It will forever be the SkyDome in my heart.

Yes I do live in Toronto, but the Jays are the only local club I root for.

Ha...oh, soz.  In my defence, I was only there for a short time, am not from Toronto nor am I Canadian. The main reason I remember it, is because I was with Rogers at the time and having all sorts of frickin hassle.  I remember thinking first time I was in there, that I was giving them even more money!!!

[Danielg342]

It's all good. Sorry to jump on you, @PMPA..."Rogers Centre" is a sore spot for us locals.

[PMPA]

45 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

It's all good. Sorry to jump on you, @PMPA..."Rogers Centre" is a sore spot for us locals.

Now I'm intrigued. Gonna skype my contacts (local) without haste and get the low down...lol )

 

45 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

It's all good. Sorry to jump on you, @PMPA..."Rogers Centre" is a sore spot for us locals.

[normasm]

On March 16, 2017 at 11:57 AM, R3volver said:

I'm new here but I've been lurking.  I just wanted to throw in my thoughts.  I really don't believe Reid is acting out of character or stupid.  He's always been known to not always make the "most logical" decisions and instead follow his conscience/moral values(much like the quote in the beginning of the episode).  He's a genius, but he's not a computer.  He's approached dangerous unsubs after taking his bulletproof vest off.  He's ventured off alone in search of unsubs multiple times in the past even when it was a bad idea.  He locked himself in a house with anthrax knowing the strong possibility he would die.  He's taken bullets for two different people.   Reid never has and probably never will play it safe or logical when it's a moral conflict. It's not that he doesn't know better, but that's just who he is, so it's not surprising when he makes ballsy moves to help someone.

This is an astute observation. Reid is seeing Luis as someone he is bound by conscience to protect. No different than if he were Henry. Heck, he would have protected Tobias if he could have (and he tried). Shaw told him that Luis would not just be unmolested after his "welcoming committee," so he tried to give them a stronger target, himself. 

BTW, this is cross-topic, but JMO has a wonderful interstitial story of this episode up on her ff accounts. Go to our Fanfiction thread if you are interested.

[R3volver]

1 hour ago, normasm said:

This is an astute observation. Reid is seeing Luis as someone he is bound by conscience to protect. No different than if he were Henry. Heck, he would have protected Tobias if he could have (and he tried). Shaw told him that Luis would not just be unmolested after his "welcoming committee," so he tried to give them a stronger target, himself. 

BTW, this is cross-topic, but JMO has a wonderful interstitial story of this episode up on her ff accounts. Go to our Fanfiction thread if you are interested.

 

Exactly.  Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but I'm glad they've written Reid the way they have in this arc.  It seems true to his character and part of what makes him so likable.  He knows what he believes in and he'll stand up for it even if it means putting himself in danger.  I consider it more of a selfless act than anything.

Thanks for the heads up! I will check it out.

[JMO]

2 minutes ago, R3volver said:

Exactly.  Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but I'm glad they've written Reid the way they have in this arc.  It seems true to his character and part of what makes him so likable.  He knows what he believes in and he'll stand up for it even if it means putting himself in danger.  I consider it more of a selfless act than anything.

Thanks for the heads up! I will check it out.

Agreed.  And I think the fact that he is knowingly putting himself in danger, for a good cause, rather than becoming the hapless victim, is what will preserve him through this.  When it looked like he might be traumatized just for being there, I was worried about how he would come out the other side.  Now I know---he'll be battered and bruised, but still Reid.