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Genius - General Discussion

Meredith Quill

By Meredith Quill
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MsTree

MsTree

14 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Never mind.  I see now that that you, @MsTree were one of the active posters in those discussions!

Yes, I was...and I still don't believe AF should be the subject of Genius just because she died. IOW, if that's the only reason producers chose AF, then they really need to go back to the drawing board, or at least explain WHY they chose her over Mary Shelley. Ugh!😞

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GHScorpiosRule
GHScorpiosRule

It's been mentioned within the series, that from a very young age, that Aretha could sing and play songs by ear, which, I think, is genius. 

DanaK
DanaK

Season 3: Aretha: I watched the first episode and it was pretty interesting. I especially enjoyed the studio sessions where she was working with the band to find her sound for her next album. That hus

DanaK
DanaK

I’ve gotten through the first 3 episodes and while I like the season and the cast as a whole so far, I’m not really liking Cynthia as adult Aretha. She plays her so dully and sleepy much of the time,

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Nessie

Nessie

On 10/26/2019 at 3:15 AM, MsTree said:

Yes, I was...and I still don't believe AF should be the subject of Genius just because she died. IOW, if that's the only reason producers chose AF, then they really need to go back to the drawing board, or at least explain WHY they chose her over Mary Shelley. Ugh!😞

Agreed.  I'm still very disappointed the next season is not going to be Mary Shelley.  I was really looking forward to that, after suffering through Picasso.

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ProudMary

ProudMary

(edited)

An article today in Variety on the upcoming Aretha Franklin film biopic, "Respect" also includes a small update in its final paragraph on when we may see Season 3 of Genius. 

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jennifer-hudson-aretha-franklin-respect-trailer-1234691389/

Quote: "Actress Cynthia Erivo is also set to star in her own on-screen role as the Queen of Soul in “Genius: Aretha,” however the National Geographic biopic was also pushed back due to COVID-19. The limited series is now set to premiere sometime this fall."

Edited by ProudMary
Added quote from the article.
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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)

Some good and bad news. The National Geographic Channel announced that Season 4's subject would be Martin Luther King, Jr. Beginning with Season 4 though, Genius will be available exclusively on the Disney+ streaming service (ie, it won't be shown on a linear channel if I understand the article correctly). Season 3 will be shown on the Nat Geo Channel, just like Season 1 and 2 were. Also to note, Season 1 and 2 are currently available on Disney+. I bet the Season 4 move is likely due to the ratings. They pretty much cratered in Season 2, drawing 1/2 to 1/3 the ratings in Season 1

Article: https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/martin-luther-king-genius-1234851119/

Edited by DanaK
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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)

Season 3, focusing on Aretha Franklin, premieres Sunday, March 21 at 9pm ET and will be broadcast over 4 consecutive nights with 2 episodes each. The episodes will also be shown on Hulu and there will also be some podcast episodes focusing on the series http://thefutoncritic.com/video/2021/02/09/video-national-geographic-and-double-oscar-nominee-cynthia-erivo-reveal-highly-anticipated-premiere-date-and-new-trailer-for-the-emmy-award-winning-anthology-series-genius-aretha-800510/20210209ngc01/

Edited by DanaK
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DanaK

DanaK

Season 3: Aretha: I watched the first episode and it was pretty interesting. I especially enjoyed the studio sessions where she was working with the band to find her sound for her next album. That husband of hers was a piece of work and her dad wasn’t any better. Some really good performances 

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12catcrazy

12catcrazy

So far, enjoying season 3 much more than the first two.  Great acting and interesting, well-written script.  

I had no idea that Aretha Franklin had her first child at such a young age and that she was raped.  At least it seems that her family was supportive.  But I was almost in tears when they showed that little girl in that situation.  

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

5 hours ago, MsTree said:

While I'm enjoying the show, I still don't understand what makes her a "genius".  IMO, Tina Turner is much more of a genius than Aretha.

It's been mentioned within the series, that from a very young age, that Aretha could sing and play songs by ear, which, I think, is genius. 

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Spartan Girl

Spartan Girl

My mom and I are hooked on this. Like most of you, I had no idea that Aretha had two kids in her tweens. That was horrifying. That poor girl.

I heard the family is not happy with the show, and given all the stuff it showed about her dad, I can see why. What a POS.

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Spartan Girl

Spartan Girl

Damn, Aretha’s performance at the Grammys brought the whole house down, despite the aria “not bring in her key”. Appreciate that it started out with Cynthia’s voice and then transitioned into the real performance.

While the nonlinear format of the series threw me off at times, this was still a good show. It’ll be interesting to see how this compares to Jennifer Hudson’s Respect.

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12catcrazy

12catcrazy

I'm a day behind in watching this (DVR it to avoid the millions of commercials), but boy, they should have sub-titiled this "Daddy Dearest".   Talk about a totally narcissistic monster.   Aretha had so many strikes against her - you've got to give her real credit.   I had heard firsthand stories about how difficult she was to work with - after watching this, you can see why.  

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

(edited)

I won't lie--I loved show they showed the real Aretha in that video with Annie Lennox! Was that dude next to Clive supposed to be George Michael?

But I am disappointed that I didn't get to see "Natural Woman", "Respect", and/or "Chain of Fools" performed in this. ESPECIALLY "Respect". Those are some of my favorite songs! All we got was that scene between Wexler and Aretha talking about those songs. Or not see the rehearsal of "Blues Brothers" where she had that one song sequence.

The transition at the end from Cynthia's Aretha to the real Aretha at the Grammys was very Tina Turner's movie What's Love Got to Do With It? when Angela Basset's Tina transitioned to the real Tina Turner performing.

And I loved all the pictures they showed at the end.

But I love this commercial she did! And how'd I miss the Liza cameo?

 

 

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)

Episode 2 was pretty good. Did Aretha ever find her groove again as a recording artist in terms of sustained hits? I guess she got a hit with George Michael with "I Knew You Were Waiting" and got back into the public eye, but I'm not sure about her albums. It didn't seem the mainstream labels really understood how to bring her soulful and gospel performing onto an album

Terrible how she got pregnant at such a young age

Edited by DanaK
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MsTree

MsTree

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But I am disappointed that I didn't get to see "Natural Woman", "Respect", and/or "Chain of Fools" performed in this. ESPECIALLY "Respect".

Extremely disappointing. And quite frankly (NPI), I wasn't all that impressed with the series. Too much focus on why she was a diva. We get it, your mama left and your daddy used you. You're not the only woman in the world to face a difficult childhood...and just like many before you, there comes a time when you have to move past it and quit the pity party.

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DanaK

DanaK

I’ve gotten through the first 3 episodes and while I like the season and the cast as a whole so far, I’m not really liking Cynthia as adult Aretha. She plays her so dully and sleepy much of the time, coming alive, somewhat, during the musical performances. It’s like she was told to play the part as downcast and quiet as possible and was too afraid to emote. The young actress playing teenage Aretha does a much better job

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LetsStartTalking

LetsStartTalking

I just finished the series, and all I can say is the producers did their best to put Franklin's life through the 'positive' spin cycle in the washer, and take out as many stains in her life as possible.

For example, her tenure at Columbia Records:  When Aretha was first signed to Columbia, they promised they would make her their premiere artist as they were looking for 'new' in the 1960s. Shortly after she signed, Barbra Streisand was signed to the label and she took the spotlight away from Franklin. This did not sit well at all with Franklin, and caused a 'frosty' relationship between the two new artists.  This also caused a war between Franklin and Columbia, as Franklin claimed the label was favoring Streisand and ignoring her (Streisand was recording 'tin pan alley' songs and Broadway tunes, while Franklin was recording R&B and soul music).  Franklin left Columbia mainly because of this favoritism towards Streisand, while Streisand has been with them for nearly 60 years.  The movie never addressed this.

 

In the 60s, Franklin was not the only black female singer breaking out onto the charts. Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight, Patti LaBelle, Tina Turner and especially Diana Ross were taking over the Billboard charts in pop, R&B, and Soul. There was a lot of jealousy between Franklin and these ladies (especially Dionne) over the success they had and she didn't - and Franklin had notorious feuds with them till her dying day. She could be very nasty to each of them -even when they were all in their 70s.  The movie never addressed this.

 

By the early 70s, Franklin was notoriously envious of the movie careers of Streisand and Ross. (Streisand was an Oscar winner for her debut in 'Funny Girl' back in 1969, and Ross was nominated for an Oscar in 1973 for 'Lady Sings the Blues').  Franklin wanted to be like them and break out into Hollywood - she had the flop 'Sparkle' instead of an Oscar-worthy role. She wasn't too pleased about that, either. (Gladys Knight also tried to break into acting in 1975, with no luck starring in the bomb 'Pipe Dreams').  Again, the movie barely mentioned her failed acting career.

 

In 1980, she signed to Arista AFTER Dionne Warwick signed in 1978. There was a bitter rivalry between the two divas during their years there, no matter how much Clive Davis tried to keep the attention on them equal and positive. All hell broke loose when Warwick's cousin Whitney Houston signed on in 1985, and Houston took the spotlight away from Franklin (though Houston only spoke of 'Auntie Ree' respectively). Occasionally, Franklin would say nice things about Houston when put on the spot, but while Houston was getting heavy promotion from Arista and MTV, Franklin was pushed to the side - none of her albums after 1984's 'Who's Zoomin' Who' matched the success of WZW once Houston joined the label.  Houston even did a duet with Franklin for Franklin's album 'Through The Storm' in 1987 (a duet which Franklin would not allow Houston to put on any of her albums, even though they shared the same label) but Arista was promoting Houston's solo success and the duet flopped big time, while Houston's solo singles were hitting #1.  This cooled her relationship with Houston after that (she asked Houston to stop calling her 'Auntie Ree' and stop saying she was Houston's Godmother) - but the movie never mentioned Whitney Houston. (Franklin didn't show up to Houston's funeral in 2012 and sing as promised, using an excuse she was ill , due to her rivalry with Houston. The movie never addressed this. )

 

Aside from Houston challenging her on the pop charts, there was also the comeback of Tina Turner in 1984-89 who grabbed all the attention. There was no love lost between Franklin and Turner over the years, and Turner was now in the spotlight. (Rumor has it that 'Sisters Are Doin'  It For Themselves' was written as a duet between Turner and Franklin, but Franklin didn't want to work with Turner - so Lennox took over for Turner).

 

More than anything else, by all accounts Franklin's career and her success was driven by anger, envy and jealousy of other women in the business. That's who she was, and that is what drove her. Despite the recognition, despite the titles, despite her own successes, she wanted the success that others had - from Streisand to Houston.

 

So if you're looking for a movie which only shows a positive light on Franklin, making her out to be a very 'positive person' who took everything in stride and got along with everyone - this is for you. If you're looking for a more true account, this is not for you.

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MsTree

MsTree

12 hours ago, LetsStartTalking said:

More than anything else, by all accounts Franklin's career and her success was driven by anger, envy and jealousy of other women in the business. That's who she was, and that is what drove her. Despite the recognition, despite the titles, despite her own successes, she wanted the success that others had - from Streisand to Houston.

 

So if you're looking for a movie which only shows a positive light on Franklin, making her out to be a very 'positive person' who took everything in stride and got along with everyone - this is for you. If you're looking for a more true account, this is not for you.

Thanks for all the info...very interesting, and probably why I didn't enjoy the movie as much as I thought I might. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still contend she definitely did not deserve the title "Genius" as the movie bestowed. Now if there was a series titled "Bitch", she'd be Number One with a bullet.

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lovinbob

lovinbob

I don't understand why they used actual footage of Aretha with Annie Lennox but went back to Cynthia Erivo and NotGeorge Michael for Knew You Were Waiting. Very odd choice. 

Similarly, who was the woman who interviewed older Aretha? Was that supposed to be an Oprah knock-off or is that a real woman I've never heard of? 

Erivo's performance was interesting to me. Was Aretha really that soft spoken?

I don't know enough about Aretha and all of the drama described above, with the other artists. But I wept when they showed her singing Nessen Dorma at the Grammys. That was breathtaking. 

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LetsStartTalking

LetsStartTalking

8 hours ago, MsTree said:

Thanks for all the info...very interesting, and probably why I didn't enjoy the movie as much as I thought I might. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still contend she definitely did not deserve the title "Genius" as the movie bestowed. Now if there was a series titled "Bitch", she'd be Number One with a bullet.

Most of this info - especially her history with Streisand in the 60s at Columbia - is detailed in her own 1998 memoir 'From These Roots'. Much of the other info can be found in numerous interviews with, and biographies on Franklin over the years. She never hid the fact that she didn't get along with any other black women in the business - Ross, LaBelle, Knight, and especially Warwick. 

She and Warwick recorded a number of the same songs, but Warwick had the most success on the Top 40). About a year before her passing, Franklin met Warwick at an event, and Warwick asked Franklin to come over and 'give her a hug' (Warwick said it was a gesture to let bygones be bygones, as she realized the two of them weren't getting any younger). Witnesses say Franklin told her to 'stay away' from her, and later publicly continued a feud with her from years ago. Warwick ignored her.

 

In the 70s, after seeing Streisand star as Fanny Brice and Ross star as Lady Day, Franklin wanted to break into movies with a 'musical biopic'.  Rumors were floating around that she was going to play Ethel Waters, and an Oscar was sure to follow. However, the project was never created for Franklin, and she chose 'Sparkle' instead. She blamed Ross for wanting the 'Waters' biopic for herself (Ross denied this - she wanted her next film to be on Josephine Baker) and Franklin never forgave her. (Later, Diahann Carroll was rumored to star in the project, but the project was shelved indefinitely).  Again - an important setback in Franklin's career, but never mentioned in the movie ?

This 8 hour movie seemed to ignore more of Franklin's life than it included.

1 hour ago, lovinbob said:

I don't understand why they used actual footage of Aretha with Annie Lennox but went back to Cynthia Erivo and NotGeorge Michael for Knew You Were Waiting. Very odd choice. 

 

I believe that all had to do with getting the license agreement from her duet partner. George Michael's estate most likely declined the licensing agreement, so they couldn't use the footage.

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MsTree

MsTree

16 hours ago, LetsStartTalking said:

Most of this info - especially her history with Streisand in the 60s at Columbia - is detailed in her own 1998 memoir 'From These Roots'. Much of the other info can be found in numerous interviews with, and biographies on Franklin over the years. She never hid the fact that she didn't get along with any other black women in the business - Ross, LaBelle, Knight, and especially Warwick. 

She and Warwick recorded a number of the same songs, but Warwick had the most success on the Top 40). About a year before her passing, Franklin met Warwick at an event, and Warwick asked Franklin to come over and 'give her a hug' (Warwick said it was a gesture to let bygones be bygones, as she realized the two of them weren't getting any younger). Witnesses say Franklin told her to 'stay away' from her, and later publicly continued a feud with her from years ago. Warwick ignored her.

In the 70s, after seeing Streisand star as Fanny Brice and Ross star as Lady Day, Franklin wanted to break into movies with a 'musical biopic'.  Rumors were floating around that she was going to play Ethel Waters, and an Oscar was sure to follow. However, the project was never created for Franklin, and she chose 'Sparkle' instead. She blamed Ross for wanting the 'Waters' biopic for herself (Ross denied this - she wanted her next film to be on Josephine Baker) and Franklin never forgave her. (Later, Diahann Carroll was rumored to star in the project, but the project was shelved indefinitely).  Again - an important setback in Franklin's career, but never mentioned in the movie ?

Appreciate the follow-up tea, as I was never really that interested in her to look up details on her career.

Like you said, too many things overlooked in this movie, including non-performance of her most recognized hits.

My feeling is that the writers wanted to whitewash her lousy lifelong attitude, and wanted us to totally feel sorry for her. And IMO, that was their entire focus (boo-hoo, cry me a river), and by doing so, left all the important/interesting points of her career by the wayside.

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DanaK

DanaK

On 4/6/2021 at 1:12 PM, LetsStartTalking said:

Aside from Houston challenging her on the pop charts, there was also the comeback of Tina Turner in 1984-89 who grabbed all the attention. There was no love lost between Franklin and Turner over the years, and Turner was now in the spotlight. (Rumor has it that 'Sisters Are Doin'  It For Themselves' was written as a duet between Turner and Franklin, but Franklin didn't want to work with Turner - so Lennox took over for Turner).

In regards to Tina, I recall Tina performed a series of duets with I think Beyonce on some awards show and Beyonce introduced her or called her The Queen of Soul or something like that, and Aretha complained about it the next day in a press release! A lot of people thought that was a really petty move

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LetsStartTalking

LetsStartTalking

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

In regards to Tina, I recall Tina performed a series of duets with I think Beyonce on some awards show and Beyonce introduced her or called her The Queen of Soul or something like that, and Aretha complained about it the next day in a press release! A lot of people thought that was a really petty move

Yes, indeed. I remember that well.  And like I said earlier, she called out Warwick publicly for 'lying about her', shortly before her death. The lie? Warwick reiterated that Franklin was the Godmother to Whitney Houston, which has been said publicly (even by Whitney and her mother Cissy) for decades. So Warwick mentioned this in an interview. 

Franklin got bent out of shape, and asked Warwick to 'take that back' and wanted the paper which the interview was published to 'retract' Warwick's statements. Talk about petty! So she starts this public feud with Warwick (I want to say it was early 2017) and Dionne - the lady which she is - walked away from it. She wouldn't respond.

 

Warwick, Streisand, Houston, Ross, Knight, Turner, LaBelle - even Natalie Cole when Cole had her great successful comeback in the early 90's - Franklin was very envious of them all, and felt threatened by them (especially Streisand in the 60s). 

 

Like I said earlier - this was the very public side of Franklin, yet the movie didn't cover any of this.

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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)

I finally finished this tonight. I thought it was pretty good overall as a multi-episode biopic, but as said by others it still managed to overlook some things in Aretha’s career, including not doing a performance of Respect and not showing her petty feuds with other performers. However it didn’t completely whitewash her as, among other things, it showed her screwing her sisters out of songs and ditching some scheduled performances. One thing I had a major issue with was that, as I said earlier, it felt like Erivo was sleepwalking through many of the episodes, though I thought she came alive during the performances. I was impressed by the actors playing young Aretha and Aretha’s dad, plus the musical performances were pretty good

Some things to note in the last episode that I thought were odd: 

Whatever they were doing to make Erivo look heavier just made her look odd

The inclusion of the “Sisters Are Doing It For Themselves” video of the actual Aretha Franklin and Annie Lennox while Erivo as Franklin was singing in the studio just seemed odd to me, like they ran out of time and patience to recreate a music video. I think they did the same thing with the video for “Freeway of Love”. It just felt lazy

Also to note, ratings for Season 3 were more on par with Season 1 than 2, so it appears that doing a season on Aretha was a shrewd move for the producers, but it may also mean they won’t be doing someone like Mary Shelly anytime soon

Edited by DanaK
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