“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Nick24]

7 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Soulless Sam was interesting as well. 

IMO that was an awful storyline. Soulless Sam was whatever this particular writer wanted him to be in this particular episode. IMO they had no idea what to do with that storyline. No consistency at all imo. Sera was just too desperate to make up anything to keep ''What's wrong with Sam?'' going. 

12 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I didn’t like Jack at first either.  But now I do find him okay, once he loses his soul.  

Another awful repetitive storyline, because again no consistency at all. He'd lost his soul. So he could not feel anything. Why was he angry then? Why was he impatient then? 

They had a chance to make Jack at least watchable when he'd lost his grace. That was wasted for the sake of destroying another Dean/Jensen storyline. 

17 minutes ago, roamyn said:

As for Cas, I like him.  (My husband likes him best)  I just don’t like how weak & whiney they made him aft S7.  Cuckolded by Metadouche?  Really?!  They dropped the ball not keeping Godstiel for most of S7.  That would’ve been a great storyline, vs the Leviathans.

They made him whiney & weak right in 5.18 Point Of No Return, when he almost killed Dean because Dean wanted to do something Cas did not like. The fact that it was justified by the writers and many viewers because ''Dean let Cas down'' was horrible. And that was also a horrible message. That was imo some kind of justification of domestic violence. Some psycho husband does not want his wife to walk away, does not want to accept her choice and that is why he beats her almost to death. Then instead of ditching him she agrees with him and plays nice and quiet. Is that a good thing? This is TERRIBLE. But that's exactly what happened. Kripke/Singer/Carver were just insane to do it. 

[roamyn]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

They made him whiney & weak right in 5.18 Point Of No Return, when he almost killed Dean because Dean wanted to do something Cas did not like. The fact that it was justified by the writers and many viewers because ''Dean let Cas down'' was horrible. And that was also a horrible message. That was imo some kind of justification of domestic violence. Some psycho husband does not want his wife to walk away, does not want to accept her choice and that is why he beats her almost to death. Then instead of ditching him she agrees with him and plays nice and quiet. Is that a good thing? This is TERRIBLE. But that's exactly what happened. Kripke/Singer/Carver were just insane to do it. 

I disagree that Cas was weak a/o 05.18 (which happens to be one of my top five eps).

Angels have been threatening violence since they were introduced.  04.02 Cas says threateningly to Dean that “you should show me some respect.  I rescued you fro Hell, I can throw you back”

I don’t get a domestic violence vibe from that, since Dean & Cas were only friends, not lovers or partners.  And Dean didn’t decide to ‘play nice & quiet’.  He got renewed sense of fight, to take everyone on.

[Nick24]

51 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I disagree that Cas was weak a/o 05.18 (which happens to be one of my top five eps).

He was weak ''inside'' imo. Mentally. A strong person would have never beaten to death a human who could not fight back. That was pathetic and made me loathe the character. Also he never apologized for that. And then in 5.21 Castiel was more than happy with Sam making the same decision. Hypocrisy here and there. 

51 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Angels have been threatening violence since they were introduced.  04.02 Cas says threateningly to Dean that “you should show me some respect.  I rescued you fro Hell, I can throw you back”

But he hadn't been violent since 4.22. That violence in 5.18 came out of nowhere.

51 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I don’t get a domestic violence vibe from that, since Dean & Cas were only friends, not lovers or partners. 

I did not mean 100% parallels. Anyway, that was a justification of violence. And again that was forgotten. But then when Dean did the same to Castiel in 10.22 under the MoC, the writers made a big deal out of it in 11.03. 

51 minutes ago, roamyn said:

 And Dean didn’t decide to ‘play nice & quiet’.  He got renewed sense of fight, to take everyone on.

That's exactly what I was talking about. According to the writers and Dean's supposed family the only way to make Dean ''get renewed sense of fight...'' was to beat him to death. That's horrible and disgusting. But I hate that ''tough love'' trope both in real and in fiction. 

51 minutes ago, roamyn said:

since Dean & Cas were only friends

I do believe that Dean considered Castiel as a friend, and then as a brother. But I had never seen the same from Castiel. He was all about himself and his own issues. Then he became all about Jack and his issues.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

They made him whiney & weak right in 5.18 Point Of No Return, when he almost killed Dean because Dean wanted to do something Cas did not like. The fact that it was justified by the writers and many viewers because ''Dean let Cas down'' was horrible. And that was also a horrible message. That was imo some kind of justification of domestic violence. Some psycho husband does not want his wife to walk away, does not want to accept her choice and that is why he beats her almost to death. Then instead of ditching him she agrees with him and plays nice and quiet. Is that a good thing? This is TERRIBLE. But that's exactly what happened. Kripke/Singer/Carver were just insane to do it. 

41 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I disagree that Cas was weak a/o 05.18 (which happens to be one of my top five eps).

Angels have been threatening violence since they were introduced.  04.02 Cas says threateningly to Dean that “you should show me some respect.  I rescued you fro Hell, I can throw you back”

I don’t get a domestic violence vibe from that, since Dean & Cas were only friends, not lovers or partners.  And Dean didn’t decide to ‘play nice & quiet’.  He got renewed sense of fight, to take everyone on.

I didn't get a domestic violence vibe; what I got was actually worse.  It was someone disappointed with a leader and, instead of acknowledging that the war was lost or that he chose the wrong side, he's blaming the leader for what was his own decision.  One side has to lose, and it's not always the one you chose.  It was these lines that made me furious:

CASTIEL: I rebelled for this?! So that you could surrender to them? ....
CASTIEL: I gave everything for you. And this is what you give to me.

To *me.*  Personal.  But Cas *chose* to rebel.  Cas *chose* to follow Dean.  And Dean disappointed him, and so got beaten to a pulp.    

Dean  was choosing to acknowledge that they couldn't win, especially with a young, inexperienced (and not the strongest) vessel, and so was going with what he thought was the best/only solution to keep as much of the world as safe as he could.  He even told Sam directly:

DEAN:  And when Satan takes you over, there's got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain't gonna be that kid. So, it's got to be me.  

Of course, that would be painful for Sam to hear that his brother didn't trust him to say no.  But it was also a better possibility that Dean/Michael could defeat Lucifer more easily/with less collateral damage than if they waited until Luci got his "perfect vessel" in Sam.  Yet no one even mentioned that.

Dean was taking responsibility, NOT giving up.  And I understand that, once they got the keys to the Cage, there was a new possibility that they could avoid the fight altogether.  But no one even considered any other options than Sam letting Lucifer in and then being able to overpower him.  Sam had to be the hero, sacrificing himself, while Dean had to "let him go."   And that trope (Dean gives up, Sam gets the heroic save) continued on throughout the series.  

About angels threatening violence:  it was always dispassionate, like Uriel planning to destroy the town.  Cas made things personal.  If he did throw Dean back into hell, that would have been a warrior sending away a soldier that didn't do his job.  What he did to Dean was a purely emotional response, not an angelic one.  

[Nick24]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:02 AM, ahrtee said:

I didn't get a domestic violence vibe; what I got was actually worse.  It was someone disappointed with a leader and, instead of acknowledging that the war was lost or that he chose the wrong side, he's blaming the leader for what was his own decision.  One side has to lose, and it's not always the one you chose.  It was these lines that made me furious:

CASTIEL: I rebelled for this?! So that you could surrender to them? ....
CASTIEL: I gave everything for you. And this is what you give to me.

To *me.*  Personal.  But Cas *chose* to rebel.  Cas *chose* to follow Dean.  And Dean disappointed him, and so got beaten to a pulp.    

Dean  was choosing to acknowledge that they couldn't win, especially with a young, inexperienced (and not the strongest) vessel, and so was going with what he thought was the best/only solution to keep as much of the world as safe as he could.  He even told Sam directly:

DEAN:  And when Satan takes you over, there's got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain't gonna be that kid. So, it's got to be me.  

Of course, that would be painful for Sam to hear that his brother didn't trust him to say no.  But it was also a better possibility that Dean/Michael could defeat Lucifer more easily/with less collateral damage than if they waited until Luci got his "perfect vessel" in Sam.  Yet no one even mentioned that.

Dean was taking responsibility, NOT giving up.  And I understand that, once they got the keys to the Cage, there was a new possibility that they could avoid the fight altogether.  But no one even considered any other options than Sam letting Lucifer in and then being able to overpower him.  Sam had to be the hero, sacrificing himself, while Dean had to "let him go."   And that trope (Dean gives up, Sam gets the heroic save) continued on throughout the series.  

About angels threatening violence:  it was always dispassionate, like Uriel planning to destroy the town.  Cas made things personal.  If he did throw Dean back into hell, that would have been a warrior sending away a soldier that didn't do his job.  What he did to Dean was a purely emotional response, not an angelic one.  

Wow. You have really made it worse now. But really thank you for opening my eyes now. That was real crap. That TFW was sitting on their asses, whining and doing nothing, whereas the only person who was trying to do at least something to save this ungrateful world got humiliated both verbally and physically.

Season 5 was really full of ''blaming Dean for someone else's choices'' trope and made me dislike/hate/loathe Sam, Castiel and Bobby by the way. I could not stand  his manipulations in 5.18 with that bullet. Again ''I am doing it for you''. Bobby, that's your choice to live, don't put this on Dean! So again, Dean was the one who was disappointing everyone and blah blah blah. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

I don't know if reading this forum now is healthy for me.  It's dredging up all the anger and frustration I'd packed away years ago. ☹️

ETA:  But it does show I still care! 😀

Edited June 20, 2022 by ahrtee

[Nick24]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:29 AM, ahrtee said:

I don't know if reading this forum now is healthy for me.  It's dredging up all the anger and frustration I'd packed away years ago. ☹️

Well, I am going to try to make you feel a little better. We had one really great time for Dean.

Season 11 Finale. That was the episode, where Dean was willing to sacrifice himself in order to save the whole universe. Dean's choice was accepted and appreciated by everyone, incl. Sam, Cas, Crowley, Rowena and God himself. We also saw how they were worried about Dean. We saw that Sam did not want to let Dean go, but he did respect his brother's choice. Also we saw Castiel who wanted to come with Dean to help him mentally. I do love that cemetery scene. That was really really beautiful, emotional and heartbreaking.

But the most important thing is that Dean didn't kill Amara. First he decided to convince her, to make her understand, that this world and God's creations are beautiful and worth saving. He convinced her to heal God!!! That was the moment Dean proved, that he was not a killer. And first of all he was all about saving people. He used the words instead of bombs/blades, etc. He used his own life experience to help the most powerful beings in the universe to solve their issues. And they were grateful! Amara thanked Dean for that, because Dean was the one who helped her to find peace. And God said that Earth would be fine because it had Dean (and Sam). So God and his sister did acknowledge Dean's value for the universe. I love that so much!

Edited June 22, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Nick24 said:

And they were grateful! Amara thanked Dean for that, because Dean was the one who helped her to find peace.

Until Amara brought back Mary not as a reward, but to teach Dean a lesson.  *sigh*

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Until Amara brought back Mary not as a reward, but to teach Dean a lesson.  *sigh*

 Well, at least I tried. I really need to erase S12-15 from my memory. 

[Nick24]

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Until Amara brought back Mary not as a reward, but to teach Dean a lesson.  *sigh*

Actually I did not mean Mary by ''Amara thanked Dean''. I meant the whole situation.

Actually, the way how Dean saved the universe in 11.23 was very important for him imo. And I do want to believe that this really helped Dean to deal at least with some of his own issues. First, he got a chance to feel, that his family/friends not just needed him, they wanted him. The fact that Castiel, whom Dean called a brother was ready to go with him and die by Dean's side, when Cas did not have to, should have made Dean feel better, feel loved. 

The fact that his own plan turned out to be successful should have helped Dean to understand that he was a worthy human being and he was a person by himself and he could be appreciated for being something more than just a brother/hunter, that he could be who he wanted to be, not who he was supposed to or who everyone else wanted him to. Dean saw, that everyone saw Amara as a threat, as an amoral force. But Dean helped her to become something else beyond that. That was the proof, that there was a hope. And at some point that hope could become the truth. And I do want to believe Dean realized that there was also hope for him. 

I do love Season 11 Finale and I'm going to consider this episode as series finale.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

IMO Season 11 Finale has given some maturity and character growth to everyone.

Dean got the big win and a chance to acknowledge his own value and to see that the people he cared about did care about him too.

Sam and Cas got a chance to understand how important Dean is in their lives and that Dean has the right to make his own decisions even if they both don't like them. 

Crowley got to know that he was not the center of the universe.

Rowena. I guess that was the moment when she realized that her desire for power wasn't what she really wanted/needed. 

Chuck and Amara found some strength to accept Dean's help and listen to a human and admit that they both were wrong and should try another way.

Maybe I'm overthinking and trying to put myself into some kind of dream, but this makes me feel better. I hope it could help someone else too.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

That's exactly what I was talking about. According to the writers and Dean's supposed family the only way to make Dean ''get renewed sense of fight...'' was to beat him to death. That's horrible and disgusting. But I hate that ''tough love'' trope both in real and in fiction. 

Completely disagree.  Where do you think Cas’s beat down is what changed Dean’s mind?  Brought back his sense of fight?

There’s nothing that indicates that.  Even aft Cas beats him - which Dean allows BTW, he didn’t fight back, not wanting to hurt his friend.  He outright says that it was Sam’s decision to have faith in Dean that changed his mind.

To me, the fight was a non-entity.  Just a means of getting Dean back to Bobby’s w/o fighting Cas abt it the entire time.  Giving Cas, Bobby, Sam time to lock him up.

Also, why no criticism then of Bobby, who actually distrusted that Dean wouldn’t say yes?  If you’re going to blame Sam & Cas for not honoring Dean’s wishes, then you have to blame Bobby just as much.

Edited June 20, 2022 by roamyn

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Also, why no criticism then of Bobby, who actually distrusted that Dean wouldn’t say yes?  If you’re going to blame Sam & Cas for not honoring Dean’s wishes, then you have to blame Bobby just as much.

I did blame Bobby too. Quoting myself:

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Season 5 was really full of ''blaming Dean in someone else's choices'' trope and made me dislike/hate/loathe Sam, Castiel and Bobby by the way.. I could not stand  his manipulations in 5.18 with that bullet. Again ''I am doing it for you''. Bobby, that's your choice to live, don't put this on Dean! So again, Dean was the one who was disappointing everyone and blah blah blah. 

8 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Completely disagree.  Where do you think Cas’s beat down is what changed Dean’s mind?  Brought back his sense of fight?

From what I've read on this forum, that was exactly what Robert Singer meant.

ETA: If I'm wrong about Mr Singer, someone who was around in Season 5 can correct that.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

17 minutes ago, roamyn said:

There’s nothing that indicates that.  Even aft Cas beats him - which Dean allows BTW, he didn’t fight back, not wanting to hurt his friend.  

A human had no chances against a furious angel in a direct fight in Season 5. Later for sure. But definitely not in S4-5. 

ETA: Dean tried to ''hurt'' Castiel in 4.22. It did not end well for Dean's hand.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, roamyn said:

To me, the fight was a non-entity.  Just a means of getting Dean back to Bobby’s w/o fighting Cas abt it the entire time.  Giving Cas, Bobby, Sam time to lock him up.

All Cas had to do was the angel-touch on his forehead.  He'd already done it at the beginning of the ep, so why the beatdown now?  

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

All Cas had to do was the angel-touch on his forehead.  He'd already done it at the beginning of the ep, so why the beatdown now?  

THIS! THOUSAND TIMES!!!

More than that, Castiel used his angel-touch later too, Season 12 btw, when he was much weaker.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

42 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Season 11 Finale has given some maturity and character growth to everyone.

Dean got the big win and a chance to acknowledge his own value and to see that the people he cared about did care about him too.

Sam and Cas got a chance to understand how important Dean is in their lives and that Dean has the right to make his own decisions even if they both don't like them. 

Crowley got to know that he was not the center of the universe.

Rowena. I guess that was the moment when she realized that her desire for power wasn't what she really wanted/needed. 

Chuck and Amara found some strength to accept Dean's help and listen to a human and admit that they both were wrong and should try another way.

Maybe I'm overthinking and trying to put myself into some kind of dream, but this makes me feel better. I hope it could help someone else too.

From comments that I've read on this forum and my personal feelings season 11 would have been the right time to end the series. It was before Dabb firmly got his hooks into the show and it went downhill from the moment that season 12 started with the ridiculous BMOL and Lucifer's continuous presence which resulted in Jack. Gag.

Edited June 20, 2022 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

THIS! THOUSAND TIMES!!!

More than that, Castiel used his angel-touch later too, Season 12 btw, where he was much weaker.

He also did it to get Dean back to Bobby's this time.  But the line that makes me go "huh?" (or maybe "grrrr,") is when Cas is beating him, Dean looks at him and says

DEAN: Do it. Just do it!

CASTIEL unclenches his fist and touches DEAN’s shoulder, knocking him out.

So was that supposed to show that Dean really *was* giving up (even though the rest of the ep seems to show that he wasn't?) He told Sam he was tired of fighting who he was supposed to be.  Sounds like mixed messages/poor writing to me.  Or maybe Jensen making lemonade again.

[DeeDee79]

20 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

A human had no chances against a furious angel in a direct fight in Season 5. Later for sure. But definitely not in S4-5. 

ETA: Dean tried to ''hurt'' Castiel in 4.22. It did not end well for Dean's hand.

Agreed. In season 8 Dean was (again) being beaten to death by Cas and when he tried to fight back he got his wrist broken. The only time that he was able to successfully fight back was in The Prisoner and personally speaking I was quite satisfied by that scene. I choose to ignore Dean apologizing for it.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

From comments that I've read on this forum and my personal feelings season 11 would have been the right time to end the series. It was before Dabb firmly got his hooks into the show and it went downhill from the moment that season 12 started with the ridiculous BMOL and Lucifer's continuous presence which resulted in Jack. Gag.

IA with that. They should have ended the show in S11. I just wish Carver wrote S11 finale himself. IMO He would've done that better. Actually I can live with my own interpretation. At least I can try.

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

All Cas had to do was the angel-touch on his forehead.  He'd already done it at the beginning of the ep, so why the beatdown now?  

Exactly! And he did that when he was first introduced in season 4 when Bobby was shooting at him.

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So was that supposed to show that Dean really *was* giving up (even though the rest of the ep seems to show that he wasn't?) He told Sam he was tired of fighting who he was supposed to be.  Sounds like mixed messages/poor writing to me.  Or maybe Jensen making lemonade again.

They just wanted to make Dean dirty as much as possible to build up Sam's BDH moment in 5.22

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

From comments that I've read on this forum and my personal feelings season 11 would have been the right time to end the series. It was before Dabb firmly got his hooks into the show and it went downhill from the moment that season 12 started with the ridiculous BMOL and Lucifer's continuous presence which resulted in Jack. Gag.

Hindsight and all that.  Remember, at the time, Mary coming back seemed like a good thing for the show.  With different writers (and showrunner) things could have gone an entirely different way.  I know at the end of season 11 I was excited at seeing how Dean would relate to Mary.  There were still plenty of stories to be told.  It's just that Dabb decided to rinse, repeat and rewrite old storylines with his pet characters instead of coming up with anything new.

[7kstar]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

All Cas had to do was the angel-touch on his forehead.  He'd already done it at the beginning of the ep, so why the beatdown now?  

Never thought it was good writing to begin with.  Major problem and no the writers didn't have a fix for it.

33 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

From what I've read on this forum, that was exactly what Robert Singer meant.

ETA: If I'm wrong about Mr Singer, someone who was around in Season 5 can correct that.

Singer, Krikpe and and other's didn't always see the best ideas.  Unfortunately, the best director died.  His death really harmed the show as he could say things that the writers would listen to, not always, but he did have better ideas and found ways to help the mess they wrote.

The mess of Season 5 and what I felt was really predictable direction starting in season 4 is a reason why I stopped watching season 6.  I don't remember, half the stories in season 6 through 7 as I could barely watch the show again.

I went from loving the brothers to liking Sam to not caring at all.  If anyone found themselves hating Sam, well, that's the result of bad stories and writing.  You can't beat the drum to death to make me think someone is great.  You need to show it by their actions, not just some pretty words.

Nor did I ever buy what drivel they pushed on Dean.  It's full of bad writing.

I felt Mary coming back was a reward and in my stories of Supernatural, it will stay that way.  I don't have to go with cannon since the own show ignored cannon.  So Mary coming back is a great reward with many interesting stories never told.  That's my ending.  Forget the rest of the nonsense, and I won't mind if Jack never came into existence. 

I never saw Singer as some gift.  He often had bad ideas.  I get Jensen respected him, but I do wonder how much friendship was really left once the show was over.

It's a shame we didn't have someone that really wanted to uplift both brothers.  I liked Bobby, Cass and Sam but there is plenty of times that I never agreed with what they told me I should.  Why because they never could overcome the bad writing that SHOWED that they were STUPID and knew nothing.  lol

[MAK]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I went from loving the brothers to liking Sam to not caring at all.  If anyone found themselves hating Sam, well, that's the result of bad stories and writing.  You can't beat the drum to death to make me think someone is great.  You need to show it by their actions, not just some pretty words.

This! It's fortunate for us that Jensen continually interpreted the horrible storylines/dialogue Dean had in a way that gave depth to the character. 

He showed us what kind of person Dean was. No matter what the other characters spouted, it couldn't, IMO, change the viewers perspective of Dean's character.

Sam felt bad, didn't show it, Sam was a leader, didn't show it, Sam was strategic, didn't show it. Where was Sam's mourning for Mom scene, or even small actions that showed it happened off-screen? Thankfully, whatever the script, Jensen and some directors, had Dean show it.

In some episodes, (Nightshifter and First Blood stand out for me) it seemed that Sam was more the brawn and Dean the brains, although the audience is continually *told* that Dean's just a grunt, Sam is the intellect. Not what ended up on screen a lot of the times.

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Unfortunately, the best director died.  His death really harmed the show as he could say things that the writers would listen to, not always, but he did have better ideas and found ways to help the mess they wrote.

I know it sounds shallow, but it was unfortunate that he died when he did. What kind of show would we have gotten if he hadn't!

[Nick24]

21 minutes ago, MAK said:

In some episodes, (Nightshifter and First Blood stand out for me) it seemed that Sam was more the brawn and Dean the brains

First Blood? Is that where Dean said ''That's worse than Hell''? /head desk

21 minutes ago, MAK said:

In some episodes, (Nightshifter and First Blood stand out for me) it seemed that Sam was more the brawn and Dean the brains, although the audience is continually *told* that Dean's just a grunt, Sam is the intellect. Not what ended up on screen a lot of the times.

The intellect, who was drinking demon blood, who could not figure out, that his brother was sucked in into Purgatory, when that was obvious right at the moment Dick started to explode, who was recklessly using the most powerful spell book, who could not figure out that it was visions from Lucifer in S11, etc. I guess I was watching some other show.*

IA, that Show vs. Tell was a very big issue on SPN.

ETA: *Or SPN writers had some other definition of ''intellect'' than I did.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

You know, speaking of Dean, his character, his attitudes towards other people (not only people), his ability to convince someone of sth and open someone's eyes, his ability to listen, to help others to deal with their issues make me think, that he could have become a great psychologist in normal life. Or even some kind of ''psychologist for supernatural beings''. He would have had plenty of customers after his success with Chuck/Amara, etc. I'm not kidding, btw.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Aeryn13]

In regards to intelligence the go-to for most TV writers is assuming the audience is dumb so when they want to make a character look smart, they just dumb down other characters in their vicinity and outright put it in dialogue who is supposed to be oh-so smart.

Because it takes real skill to portray everyone as smart and competent and still make one particular character stand out with clever and strategic thinking.

The very few times in TV shows writers have done that is when I actually consider a character really smart. Sam on SPN is not one of these cases.

Fringe is a good show to watch for smart characters.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Aeryn13

[Nick24]

Speaking again of S11 finale and Mary's resurrection, I'm not sure that this was ''what Dean needed most''. Of course, Dean loved his mom and he was happy to see her again, but she had been gone for so long for him to have such a desire to bring her back at that point. Actually it's hard to figure out, what Dean truly needed most. I can assume, that he needed peace, some kind of relief and also to take at least some weight off his shoulders. Maybe Amara thought, that Mary could be the person, who would help Dean with that.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The very few times in TV shows writers have done that is when I actually consider a character really smart.

Don't really want to go off topic, but I thought the way they wrote/showed Vincent d'Onofrio and Kathryn Erbe characters in Law and Order: Criminal Intent, was really good. They both came off as really intelligent without everyone constantly saying "oh, they are so smart, the smartest!"

Edited June 20, 2022 by MAK
Forgot to add the name of the show

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, MAK said:

people constantly saying "oh, they are so smart, the smartest!"

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In regards to intelligence the go-to for most TV writers is assuming the audience is dumb so when they want to make a character look smart, they just dumb down other characters in their vicinity and outright put it in dialogue who is supposed to be oh-so smart.

Do all those writer really think, that if they say ''he/she is the smartest person on the planet'' gazillion times, we're actually gonna believe it? They can't be that stupid, can they?😬

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I do love Season 11 Finale and I'm going to consider this episode as series finale.

Minus the last two minutes.  I had some thoughts about how it might have gone after Chuck and Amara went up in smoke.

[MAK]

S11 was such an organic ending. The reward  from both Chuck and Amara could have been no more supernatural in the world. Heaven/Hell/Purgatory residents prohibited from interference in the human world. Even ghosts are gone.

Then, even though he probably wouldn't know what to do later on, Dean would have his "retirement" with "toes in the sand." At least for a little while. That would have given Dean what he actually needed--peace. The Winchesters would no longer be called upon to keep fighting. 

It even left it open-ended enough for a comeback. Chuck and Amara could start fighting again, whatever, and the Winchesters would need to suit up one more time.

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I had some thoughts about how it might have gone after Chuck and Amara went up in smoke

Kind of like this, except no more hunting. 

[Nick24]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Minus the last two minutes.  I had some thoughts about how it might have gone after Chuck and Amara went up in smoke.

Thank you for this! I really like it!

You know, what I'd like for Dean after that Chuck/Amara thing in 11.23... I'd like Dean to explore himself and the world around him, to try something new, maybe to go travel the world. When he gets bored, he could go for some occasional hunts being somewhere in Africa or in Scandinavia! Imagine Dean chasing some Nordic monster and riding an actual moose! There's snow and rocks all around. Just like a Viking! And then he could use that wonderful experience after coming home. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Thank you for this! I really like it!

You know, what I'd like for Dean after that Chuck/Amara thing in 11.23... I'd like Dean to explore himself and the world around him, to try something new, maybe to go travel the world. When he gets bored, he could go for some occasional hunts being somewhere in Africa or in Scandinavia! Imagine Dean chasing some Nordic monster and riding an actual moose! There's snow and rocks all around. Just like a Viking! And then he could use that wonderful experience after coming home. 

Thanks. :)  All that could be fun, too, except for, you know, flying.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thanks. :)  All that could be fun, too, except for, you know, flying.

There are always ships! 😊  And no monsters around, because, you know, surrounded by salt water.  

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thanks. :)  All that could be fun, too, except for, you know, flying.

Oh, you're right! Well, that'd be a good chance for Dean to overcome his fear! Or he could just go by ship. Or he could build his own boat and learn to sail! A lot of ways :)

ETA: Oh, @ahrtee got ahead of me about ships.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[gonzosgirrl]

In all seriousness though, I don't think 'peace' for Dean would be never hunting again, unless all supernatural threats were removed from the world. Even then, I think he'd find a way to do things that helped/protected people. It's in his DNA.

[Nick24]

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

There are always ships! 😊  And no monsters around, because, you know, surrounded by salt water.  

Or Dean could discover some new kind of monsters, which wouldn't be afraid of salt! Then he could write a book or a manual about them (I do believe, that Dean's a book-smart person). And then the area, where those monsters live would be named after Dean! Some kind of Dean's Quadrilateral! 😊

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In all seriousness though, I don't think 'peace' for Dean would be never hunting again, unless all supernatural threats were removed from the world. Even then, I think he'd find a way to do things that helped/protected people. It's in his DNA.

IA. That is why I'm trying to make up something new/interesting/exciting for Dean, while still being able to help people and hunt, when he thinks he wants/needs to.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

38 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Imagine Dean chasing some Nordic monster and riding an actual moose! 

Quoting myself. Probably Crowley would be a little jealous of Dean. You know, he has weird relationship with moose. But Dean could bring him one as a gift from his trip!

[ahrtee]

46 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Imagine Dean chasing some Nordic monster and riding an actual moose! 

I could make some kind of comment about Wincest (but I won't 😊).  I know others are thinking it. 

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I could make some kind of comment about Wincest (but I won't 😊).  I know others are thinking it. 

OMG. I did not mean that! Not really! 😳

[Nick24]

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I could make some kind of comment about Wincest (but I won't 😊).  I know others are thinking it. 

You know, now my idea of Dean giving Crowley as a gift that moose Dean was riding on sounds very very different.

[Nick24]

Now I do wonder, if Sam's gonna find a squirrel to spend time with, while Dean's traveling...

Well, apparently something's wrong with me today. 😄

[Nick24]

I have a weird question. Does anyone know, what Adam Glass was doing as an Executive Producer in S8-10?

I’ve been thinking about S10 a lot, because I refuse to believe that some of my favorite episodes were written by Dabb/Berens. Not after everything they’ve done to Dean in S12-15.

As I’ve said before I think S10 gave Dean some kind of character growth.

In 10.13 He said that his peace was helping people. Written by Charmelo/Snyder. The same writers who gave us The Purge.

In 10.14 Dean’s motivation was saving the kid. It wasn’t killing Cain just ‘’because’’. And he didn’t want to kill Cain, Dean was asking him to stop. Written by Berens, who thought Dean needed to punch, gut and kill something and probably was a true sadist.

In 10.15 Dean was doing all he could to save Cole. Successfully. Written by Jenny Klein, who imo wasn’t very good at characterization.

In 10.16 we got Dean’s confession. IMO that was very important moment. Written by the Duo, who thought Dean was a killer in his DNA.

In 10.17 we got Dean/Crowley conversation about family. Written by Dabb…Do I have to talk about him?

This might’ve been on Carver, but Carver was the one, who made Sam lecture Dean about saving people in 11.01 right after Glass left the building. But I looked back at S7-9 and Adam Glass’ episodes:

In 7.11 Adventures in Babysitting Dean was trying to convince Krissy and her dad to quit hunting.

In 8.18 Glass gave Dean very important words:

Quote

DEAN: Hunting isn't all about killing and revenge.

Also Dean was the one, who saved that vamp!girl and didn't let Krissy and her gang to kill her.

In 9.07 we got to know, that Dean had his own wishes and successes outside of John/Sam and he wasn’t that much into hunting, he had a chance to quit it and he was seriously considering that.

In 9.17 we were shown, that Dean wasn’t OK with the MoC effects on him.

In 10.12 Sam thanked Dean for saving him and Tina. Overall that was a very good ep. Dean had a chance to get rid of the MoC and that burden, but he didn’t do that, because he had decided that saving people was the more important thing to do. And that was admitted through the narrative.

I’m just thinking, maybe most of those good things and Dean’s growth in S10 were Adam’s farewell. He might’ve had some influence as a head-writer. Or I'm overthinking again.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

I’m just thinking, maybe most of those good things and Dean’s growth in S10 were Adam’s farewell. He might’ve had some influence as a head-writer. Or I'm overthinking again.

Well, I know the part of Dean in purgatory, season 9 and 10 got me watching the show again,

From some comments I read, some hated Adam because they felt he made Sam look bad.  Funny, it's always fine for those same fans if Dean looks bad...

I wanted both brothers to enjoy fighting the good fight together.  I got tired of the Sam show with dumb dean.  One reason I was ready for it to end.  Not to mention the other character that stole the show and got boring fast.

Every writer has hits and misses.  I haven't watched 8-10 in a while but I did think on the whole it had a stronger theme running through the seasons.  Once Carver left, well, all bets were off.

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, 7kstar said:

From some comments I read, some hated Adam because they felt he made Sam look bad.  Funny, it's always fine for those same fans if Dean looks bad...

I've read some of those posts here. That's really funny. When the writers were doing something to Sam, those fans jumped on ''This is Sam's character assassination. Carver and Glass hate Sam, etc.'' train. But when the writers were doing something to Dean, those same fans were ''This is all Dean. The writers are blameless''. 

8 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I got tired of the Sam show with dumb dean.  One reason I was ready for it to end.  Not to mention the other character that stole the show and got boring fast.

Oh, some writers were really enjoying dumbing Dean down. That's why I'm personally OK with Glass, because he gave Dean some really smart moments. Thompson as well. 

8 hours ago, 7kstar said:

 Once Carver left, well, all bets were off.

IA. After Carver's departure, the show became almost unwatchable. But IMO the things started going slightly sideways right in the beginning of S11 with that Sam's ''We need to save everyone, we need to change, etc'', which came up out of nowhere and Dean's ''Oh, right, the new rules''. What was that? IIRC Carver was around in the beginning of S11. And the only difference between S10 and S11 was Adam or no Adam as an EP. Of course, there was something with Singer, but I'm pretty sure he had nothing to do with that. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Nothing here. Edited my previous post.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

36 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Dean was always going to die on a hunt.  Always.  

For me this makes that whole ''fighting destiny'', ''free will'', ''writing your own story'' pointless. This is nullifying the character development. Why bother to watch the character journey, when everything was thrown out of the window by the end?

What was the point of all Dean's fighting, suffering in the end, when all his legacy had been destroyed and his only goal was to support and praise Sam? What was the point when he was capable of nothing without Chuck? What was the point of all those endless resurrections throughout the series?

What was the point, when Dean was still thinking about himself as a good little soldier, who deserved nothing but dying bloody? They could've written that finale right in 1.22. 

Anyway, I loathe 15.20 and I will always consider that as a total disrespect to both Dean and Jensen.

Quote

They did the best they could under the circumstances.

Completely disagree. IMO they didn't even try. 

Quote

 I know people will criticize, but I would’ve liked to see more of Sam’s life.  Did he still hunt?  Did he introduce Dean Jr to the MoL bunker or hunting?  WHO DID HE MARRY?

I'm glad that we haven't seen that. Otherwise, Dean died on his first hunt at the hands of some random vampire, but apparently Sam was doing just fine and probably was hunting even without Chuck's help. Dabb would've been jumping out his joy.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

16 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I have a weird question. Does anyone know, what Adam Glass was doing as an Executive Producer in S8-10?

I’m just thinking, maybe most of those good things and Dean’s growth in S10 were Adam’s farewell. He might’ve had some influence as a head-writer. Or I'm overthinking again.

Quoting myself. I've read some articles and got to know, that Jeremy Carver was working on developing his project ''Frequency'' back during SPN S10, just for NBC*. So apparently this is possible, that he wasn't too much involved in SPN at times, when he needed to work on that reboot. Then who was running SPN? This leaves us with Singer and Glass as EPs. But idk, imo Singer wasn't any better than Dabb/Berens, so it's hard to believe, that he gave Dean any growth. So, Glass? Or someone unknown. 🤔

*Source:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/nbc-plots-frequency-reboot-supernatural-748851/