“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

As for the Darkness, that was ''funny''. Sam said in 11.01

So, Sam almost ended the world. A lot of people died because of his actions. But he kept saying that he would do it again and that was framed as something good. Seriously, show? Is that how you want to write one of your supposed protagonists? The character had learned nothing from it. And again, Dean was the only one who were trying to stop him and his BotD business, but no, that was forgotten and Amara was on Dean too. 

That is why Dean is my favorite character. No matter what he was doing, no one (with some exceptions) appreciated that, no one thanked him for all the suffering he'd gone through in order to help others. But even then Dean kept doing his job. He kept helping people, he kept taking care of his brother, he kept trying to make the world a better place. And Dean had been doing this selflessly without asking anything in return.

Our real world needs people like Dean Winchester.

Sam on the other hand always needed someone to cheer for him, someone to justify his action. For instance, head!Mary in 4.21 and head!Bobby in 9.01.  

It is sonething writers do over and over again, not only on this show but others as well. To me one of the pitfalls of bad writing is when it overly tries to push you in one direction or another. "See, this character, you have to love and agree with them above else because they just can't be wrong." Even when they are called out for being "wrong", it's an obvious set up on how they are persecuted. And other characters are put down over and over to sell me on how great the pet character is.

This always, always backfires for me because outside of fairytales, things are not as overly good and evil and zero sum as that.

Badd's comics were so ludicrously lopsided and he brought that exact same attitude to the show. And then he proceeded to run the entire Mythos and drag every episode, from the Pilot on, down on the altar of what he wanted.

[ILoveReading]

Nothing is ever going to convince me Dean wasn't supposed to do the trials.  There was an article just before episode 14 where the interviewer said Jared and Jensen were stoked about the upcoming mythology.  There was video, and Jensen looked disappointed.  He was quiet, looking down and didn't say a word while Jared went on and on.  Several people asked if there was another interview because Jensen looked anything but stoked.   So it wasn't just one person's opinion. Then after episode 19, she said Dean needed more to do and the next week was convinced that Dean had a part to play, even though he had less to do in that ep than he did it 19.  Many wondered if she got her hand slapped. 

The trials themselves, killing a hellhound, saving a soul from hell, curing a demon, they are all things that would better suit putting Dean's physical and metaphorical demons to bed.  I think something changed behind the scenes and they were given to Jared.  The whole, "I need to be purified thing" made no sense after episode Sam saying he forgave himself for everything and carried no guilt. 

I knew the outcome of that storyline the minute we got the spoiler only brother was going to do the trials.  Sam would chosen one, Dean would get support and Sam would be resentful of Dean not treating him like a big boy and it played out exactly like that.   For all Sam's whining that he had to do it all by himself he had no problem accepting help from anyone but Dean.  

There was no reason they both couldn't do them.  Have Dean do one, Sam do the other and do the last together.

I also thought the whole stoyline was stupid, and made both Sam and Dean look like idiots.  Why did they jump in so blindly?  The world was status quo and there was no pressing need for it to be done immediately.  Why not wait until they had all 3 trials?  I get the appeal of closing the gates of hell and if it was s1 I would understand but they had been around the block enough times to know that things are never what they seem and if it sounds too good to be true it probably was.  They never even questioned what happens if they were closed and if souls could still go to hell. 

Not to mention at that point there was a good chance of renewal and they weren't going to eliminate demon.  So Sam and Dean were either going to look selfish by refusing to close the gates (which is what happened, because their knowledge to "turn the tide" didn't do a single bit of good) or if closing was going to have as many negative effects as positive they look like idiots.  No way to end that story on a positive note. 

How did Dean not realize Sam was dying?

Between all that and how the show framed Dean as a mean one because he was upset Sam abandoned him, aside from the small amount of purgatory  I loathed s8,  I almost stopped watching. 

[Nick24]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I knew the outcome of that storyline the minute we got the spoiler only brother was going to do the trials.  Sam would chosen one, Dean would get support and Sam would be resentful of Dean not treating him like a big boy and it played out exactly like that.   For all Sam's whining that he had to do it all by himself he had no problem accepting help from anyone but Dean.  

Apparently they wanted to prop up Sam/JP after that Samelia epic fail. They made Sam look like he wanted to be the chosen one again. Also that whole thing about Dean having to support Sam, etc. made me loathe their relationship. Dean had always been supportive. And in Season 8 (and S4 as well) DEAN was the one who needed support, Dean was the one who should have been taken care of after his Purgatory PTSD (in S4 after Hell). But no, every time that was again ''Dean has to learn a valuable lesson about letting Sam do something, suck his own feelings/problem up and be nice to his selfish ungrateful brother''.  

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The trials themselves, killing a hellhound, saving a soul from hell, curing a demon, they are all things that would better suit putting Dean's physical and metaphorical demons to bed.  

Absolutely agree! Completing those trials could have helped Dean to start healing from his mental wounds. That was something he truly needed. 

46 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The whole, "I need to be purified thing" made no sense after episode Sam saying he forgave himself for everything and carried no guilt. 

IMO they wanted us to think ''Oh, poor baby Sam, he still cannot let go of his failures, how nice it is''. And at the same time they were blaming Dean in self-pitiness. That was just ridiculous and made Sam look like an idiot. 

50 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Between all that and how the show framed Dean as a mean one because he was upset Sam abandoned him, aside from the small amount of purgatory  I loathed s8,  I almost stopped watching. 

8B was one of the worst periods of S1-11 IMO.

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

How did Dean not realize Sam was dying?

Especially considering that Dean said himself in 8.14 that it would not end well and one of them would die. 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It is sonething writers do over and over again, not only on this show but others as well. To me one of the pitfalls of bad writing is when it overly tries to push you in one direction or another. "See, this character, you have to love and agree with them above else because they just can't be wrong." Even when they are called out for being "wrong", it's an obvious set up on how they are persecuted. And other characters are put down over and over to sell me on how great the pet character is.

This kind of writing makes me loathe those pet characters.

[Nick24]

Funny (or not so much) thing. So many writers tried to damage Dean's character, to destroy him somehow. But ultimately they did destroy the whole show by this. Apparently Dean's character was much stronger that the show itself (thanks to Jensen). At least for me.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

23 hours ago, ahrtee said:

When Dean wanted to give in to Zach and say yes to Michael in order to save the world, everyone chastised him for giving up.  When Sam did it, it was heroic.  And, of course, the basic ones:  Dean "forcing" Sam to take his soul back (which many at the time equated to rape). Soulless Sam was a danger to everyone, not just Dean (and Bobby) and had to be stopped, cured or killed.  Yet Dean was the bully

Can I just emphatically agree with this?

At the end of S5 Dean was chastised for not being able to let his brother go, yet a few episode earlier Bobby & Sam had him on lockdown to prevent Dean from saying "yes"  And Cas was pissed at him.

And speaking of Soulless Sam, Bobby wasn't the only one that could've been killed.  Lisa & Ben were at risk.   Not to mention any other innocents that Dean might've come across, if he couldn't control the hunger.

While we're at it.  I hate the criticism Dean gets from the beatdown he gave Sam.  IMO Sam deserved it.  1) Dean had built up anger since Sam came back 'wrong'; 2) the danger Sam put everyone in (see my above paragraph); 3) Dean was grieving his relationship w/Lisa, the loss of which was Sam's fault; 4) and most important..Dean saw Sam's smirk as he was turned by Boris!

People get all upset abt what Dean did to poor Sammy, but never consider the other side.  Emotionally, physically and mentally what Sam did was so much worse than Dean's beating the former up.

[Nick24]

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

While we're at it.  I hate the criticism Dean gets from the beatdown he gave Sam.  IMO Sam deserved it. 

Are you talking about 6.06 You Can't Handle The Truth? If so, I enjoyed that scene a lot. You're absolutely right. Sam did deserve it. So did Cas in 10.22. I was very pleased with those two wonderful scenes. 

5 hours ago, roamyn said:

People get all upset abt what Dean did to poor Sammy, but never consider the other side.  Emotionally, physically and mentally what Sam did was so much worse than Dean's beating the former up.

That is why I loved everything Demon!Dean told Sam in 10.03. I wish we got more of it. Michael!Dean had some great points about Sam and Castiel as well. 

ETA: Also, every time Sam was under some influence (1.10, 4.14), we were told, that this was not Sam and Dean should let it go, Sam did not mean it and blah blah blah. No matter that Sam had no problems with telling Dean much worse things without any influence. 

But when Dean was possessed by the spectre in 8.06 and then he said nothing wrong, Sam threw a tantrum and this was justified. 

Oh, as for 10.03, interesting, that Sam kept saying ''This isn't my brother talking''. IMO Sam realized that Demon!Dean had told a lot of true things (especially about Sam's whining, complaining, sucking the life out of Dean's life and having Dean as an excuse for not manning up) and Sam just could not stand even thought that Dean (or anyone) might think about it that way. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

I have been thinking about Dean and that family thing on SPN and something has occurred to me.

In 6.14 ’’Mannequin 3: The Reckoning’’ Ben (Lisa’s son) told Dean

Quote

BEN: You know you're walking out on your family, right?

Look at Dean’s face after those words. He was absolutely shocked. It’s like Dean was thinking ‘’How on earth can anyone consider me as family?’’ I felt like someone had punched me.

I wonder if Dean thought that Sam did not consider him as family either? It might be the truth, especially after 5.16 Dark Side Of The Moon with Sam’s happy memories and him saying

Quote

SAM: I just don’t look at family the way you do.

Then it could explain Dean’s words in 8.09 Citizen Fang

Quote

DEAN: We don't get family.

Then Benny said ‘’You got Sam’’. And Dean’s reaction told me a lot. It was like ‘’I wish I did’’.

And then we got that conversation in 10.03

Quote

SAM: This family is all we have ever had!

DEMON!DEAN: Well, then, we got nothin’.

So maybe deep down Dean realized that Sam did not see him as family but just an excuse for Sam’s own actions/failures and that is why Dean was probably thinking ‘’If my own brother thinks that I am not his family, then I am not worthy of having family at all’’.

IMO Sam is responsible for a lot of Dean’s self-worth issues.

[roamyn]

4 hours ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Sam is responsible for a lot of Dean’s self-worth issues.

I think most of Dean’s self-worth issues are from John, not Sam.

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

IMO Sam is responsible for a lot of Dean’s self-worth issues.

48 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I think most of Dean’s self-worth issues are from John, not Sam.

I think it's both, feeding one off the other.

John set him up, telling him (even if not in words) that Sam is more important than him, and his main reason for being is to take care of his little brother.  Then Sam put in the final knife stroke, when he pushes Dean away, telling him (over and over) that doesn't want or need him or his help; that he's a bully, or clingy, or all the negative things Sam has said over the years. 

The only other way he can feel worthy is to help others, even though it's never enough without Sam.  (And, of course, when the one you're working your damnedest to help tells you that you've never saved anyone, that everything you do is out of selfishness, then....)  See, The Purge always comes back to me in times of bitterness.

[Nick24]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:01 AM, roamyn said:

I think most of Dean’s self-worth issues are from John, not Sam.

Well, I do think that John is responsible for causing a lot of those issues because of the way he raised Dean. But Sam was the one who did not let Dean recover from that.

Sam was the one who had been always using Dean's weak spots against him (and at the same time he wanted Dean to be open to him). Over and over again. Sam was the one who had been blaming Dean for selfishness(S3, S8, S9 are the most remarkable). Sam was the one who was mocking Dean's Hell Trauma in S4. Sam was the one who was blaming Dean for that Ruby thing (Hi, Fallen Idols).

Sam was the one who could not appreciate Dean's desire to sacrifice himself for Michael in 5.18 and calling him suicidal. But Dean was not. That was Dean willing to give this world at least a chance because the other members of their TFW were doing nothing but sitting and whining. Sam was the one who ''did not see family the way Dean did''. He saw that Dean was hurt in 5.16. Sam could have comforted him. But no, that was too much to ask. Sam made it much worse for Dean.

Then Sam was the one who abandoned Dean to die in Purgatory, because apparently the girl was more important. Dean clearly saw it, because Sam did not even try to feel for Dean after his return. All Sam's behavior was like ''You came back and ruined my life''. He almost said it straight in 8.03:

Quote

SAM: I had something I've never had. A normal life. I mean, I got to see what that felt like. I want that. I had that.

And then in 8.11 Charlie said:

Quote

CHARLIE: So he found some normalcy with this chick, and now it's gone... again. Thanks to you.

She made up that opinion because of the story Dean had told her. So Dean believed that. 

Sam was the one who once again could not see Dean's selfless desire to close the Gates of Hell and was blaming him for being suicidal. Sam was the one told Dean in 9.12 Sharp teeth that they were not supposed to be brothers. Sam was the one who devalued the whole meaning of Dean's life in The Purge and never apologized for that. 

Sam was the one who could not appreciate Dean's efforts to fight the MoC in 10B. Dean was struggling, but he was doing incredibly well, but Sam (and Cas) did not want to see that. Sam was all into his BotD/Rowena business. Sam was the one who refused to listen to Dean, when Dean had asked him to stop it. So apparently Dean's opinion about Dean's issue (the MoC was Dean's cross to bear) meant nothing to Sam.

Sam was the one who decided that he had the right to lecture Dean about the importance of saving people in S11. IMO Sam had no moral right to do it after everything he'd done. 

Sam was the one who was blaming Dean for indifference to Mary in 12.03 The Foundry. Really, Sam? That Sam's ''Mom's not a thing'' really pissed me off. 

Sam was the one who did not want to understand Dean's grieving and Dean's attitudes towards Jack in the beginning of S13. Sam was blaming Dean for being John 2.0. Seriously, Sam? Have you totally lost your mind to even think that way? 

Sam (and everyone else) was the one who could not appreciate Dean's sacrifice in 13.23 by letting Michael in in order to save the world from overpowered Lucifer. And Sam's/Jack's asses. In that order only. Also Sam did not even try to be supportive to Dean after his Michael trauma.

Also Sam did not want to understand Dean's grieving after Mary's second death. Dean knew the old Mary from his childhood. Dean saw her dying at the age of 4. They she came back and she was not the Mary Dean knew. Sam did not want to help Dean with that either. Then she died again. I cannot even imagine how hard it was for Dean to get over his mother's second death. Sam did not care. He and Cas were too busy worshiping Jack. They both did not even want to try to feel for Dean's pain and they both were blaming Dean for his feelings, his pain and his grieving.

And finally, Sam did not even bother to say anything comforting to Dean on Dean's deathbed. Sam was the one who let Dean spend the last seconds of his life on praising Sam and humiliating himself.

That is why I truly believe that Sam is fully responsible for the fact, that Dean had never had a chance to recover from his self-worth issues and mental wounds before he died.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

5 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Sam was the one who could not appreciate Dean's efforts to fight the MoC in 10B. Dean was struggling, but he was doing incredibly well, but Sam (and Cas) did not want to see that. Sam was all into his BotD/Rowena business. Sam was the one who refused to lesiten to Dean, when Dean had asked him to stop it. So apparently Dean's opinion about Dean's issue (the MoC was Dean's cross to bear) meant nothing to Sam.

Sam was the one who decided that he had the right to lecture Dean about the importance of saving people in S11. IMO Sam had no moral right to do it after everything he'd done. 

Sam was the one who was blaming Dean for indifference to Mary in 12.03 The Foundry. Really, Sam? That Sam's ''Mom's not a thing'' really pissed me off. 

I do agree that Sam didn’t take Dean’s wishes into account regarding the MoC.  And yes, Sam kept saying he was getting worse, but we never saw that.  It wasn’t until Charlie’s death (which Sam is partly to blame for, even tho it was ultimately Charlie’s decision to help), that Dean went off the deep end.

And Sam was definitely on his high horse the first half of S11.

But I disagree that Sam blamed Dean for Mary’s indifference.  Mary was indifferent because that was her personality and her confusion.  Plus I thought Dean pushed a bit too much in his exuberance to have his mother back.  Pushing himself into Mary’s case.

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, roamyn said:

But I disagree that Sam blamed Dean for Mary’s indifference.  Mary was indifferent because that was her personality and her confusion.  himself into Mary’s case.

I guess you've misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about Mary being indifferent. Sam was behaving like Dean was indifferent to Mary's troubles in Season 12. Sam's speeches in 12.03, 12.04, 12.14 made it clear.  But Dean was not indifferent. Btw, Dean was struggling too. As I've said Dean did remember her from his childhood. One day everything was more or less OK, next day his life, his childhood were ruined. Then she was brought back. And what did she do? Mary abandoned them. Of her own will. Once again, Dean's family member did not want to be with him. And let's not forget about not!Mary's speech in 5.16:

Transcript 5.16 Dar Side Of The Moon

Quote

NOT!MARY:  I never loved you. You were my burden. I was shackled to you... The one silver lining was that at least I was away from you. Everybody leaves you, Dean. You noticed? Mommy. Daddy. Even Sam... You ever ask yourself why? Maybe it’s not them. Maybe, it’s you.

Look at Dean's face at the last scene of 12.03. It seems to me that he might be thinking about those words. What if Dean started to think that this speech from 5.16 was the truth? It might be the case. I cannot imagine how Dean got over it. And Sam had heard that speech. Of course Sam was hurt too, but not the way Dean was. Actually, I did not see Sam being hurt right in 12.04. Dean could have helped Dean to deal with it. He should have. But Sam did not want to even try to feel for Dean. Sam wanted Dean to be easier on Mary. So once again ''Suck your own feelings and pain up and play nice''. More than that, Sam made Dean feel, that Dean was wrong for feeling the way he felt, for expressing his emotions and for not being able to cover his pain. 

That is why Dean always thought that it was something wrong with him. I'm afraid Dean did not even realize that he did have the right to feel hurt, etc. And I do believe that Sam is responsible for that. Resurrected Mary and Castiel as well. 

As I've said before somewhere, imo Dean was mentally lonely most of his life even when someone was physically around. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

8 hours ago, roamyn said:

Plus I thought Dean pushed a bit too much in his exuberance to have his mother back.  Pushing himself into Mary’s case.

Do you mean Ep 12.03 and that case with the ghosts? If so, I disagree. First, Dean agreed to hunt together, because he thought it would help her. Mary wanted this and Dean did appreciate her choice to start hunting. Isn't that exactly what everyone wanted from Dean?* But at the same time Dean did not want Mary to get herself killed. She had been gone for 33 years and logically she should not have been good at hunting right after coming back. So of course, Dean did not want Mary to be too much involved into working the case. IMO Dean was being very reasonable in this episode. 

*Dean just cannot win with those writers. Dean appreciates someone's choices, he's in the wrong. Dean refuses to accept someone's choices (mostly because they are not good), he's in the wrong. Whatever Dean does, he's always in the wrong.  

[Nick24]

Good God, I've just realized that The Purge happened after 9.07 Bad Boys. That was the episode, where Sam got a chance to actually see, how much Dean had sacrificed for him, how much he'd given up, how many internal issues Dean had. Sam got to know, that Dean had an opportunity to live his own life, that Dean had his own wished and dreams outside of Sam/John. And Dean had given up on all of this because of Sam. And after that this ungrateful ass of a brother  Sam dared to throw Dean ''not being brothers'', ''more harm than good'', ''willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt''. What am I supposed to think about Sam after that? 

Great. Now The Purge has become even more horrible. The more I think about their relationship, the more I hate it.

[ahrtee]

Codependency: 

According to a 2018 research review, patterns of codependent behavior generally involve four main themes:

self-sacrifice

a tendency to focus on others

a need for control, which may fuel conflict

difficulty recognizing and expressing emotions

But another definition stresses it's *on both sides*:

“Codependency is a circular relationship in which one person needs the other person, who in turn, needs to be needed. The codependent person, known as ‘the giver,’ feels worthless unless they are needed by — and making sacrifices for — the enabler, otherwise known as ‘the taker.'

[MAK]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

he codependent person, known as ‘the giver,’ feels worthless unless they are needed by — and making sacrifices for — the enabler, otherwise known as ‘the taker.'

I wonder which is which? 😊

Anyway, I want to preface this very long rant, I mean post, with the disclaimer that, yes, both Sam and Dean had horrible childhoods. But horrible in different ways, and I don't think there should be a competition of "who had it worse" even if we all have our opinions on that. I'm only commenting on how they dealt with it as adults, from Pilot onwards.

Sam never lost anyone he loved or was truly important to him until he lost Jessica. Before Jessica's death, Sam is telling Dean to get over Mom's death. For Sam, Mary was just a blonde in a couple of photos. (Which is extremely sad in its own way.) After Jessica's death, he still doesn't acknowledge Dean's loss and grief. He's telling Dean how it feels to lose someone and how grief works in Scarecrow (not sure of the episode). He says Jessica just died 6 months ago so his grief is greater than Dean's for a Mom who died more than 20 years ago. (As someone who has lost a mother, more than 20 years ago, you don't really get over it, you just accept the loss.) Dean grew up having to hide and suppress his feelings in front of John. He couldn't even talk to Sam about why they lived like they did for 8 years (!) until Sam found the journal. By then Dean was used to keeping his own counsel and hiding any real emotions (except anger probably) from everyone.

Sam was always moaning about how he wanted a normal/safe life. And he was constantly denied things, a home, a normal family life (even a single parent scenario). Dean had those things and lost them. It made Dean hold on tight to everything that he did still have, even possibly to an obsessive degree. I'm sure Dean had to leave behind babysitters he bonded with, friends, and perhaps even a pet. Just because Dean wasn't whining about what he doesn't have, what he never had, and what he can never have, doesn't mean he didn't feel the loss of those things. But he showed his mourning in other ways. Dean took the used up lemon rinds life gave him and made candy with stolen sugar. Sam just complained about only getting off-brand Tang.

I know Sam was supposed to be the classic tragic hero in S1-5, and he was, mostly. He didn't have a good life. He fought for and succeeded in making his own future (Stanford, Jessica). Even if he couldn't "be who he really was."  Then Fate/Chuck intervened, Sam thought he could fight the powers that be, became arrogant (Ruby/Demon blood), was smacked down, but was redeemed by his ultimate sacrifice to save the world. But the classic hero narrative falls apart after S5. Almost all of Sam's motivation in the later seasons comes from wanting personal redemption, or "saving his brother" for personal reasons. To prove he wasn't truly damned. Sam didn't really lose faith until S14 finale.

Dean never sought redemption, as far as I saw. He didn't have faith in any higher power to begin with and his introduction to Heaven and Hell solidified his non-faith. He accepted that his life is to be spent "saving people, hunting things," and he was going to give it his all. Hopefully with Sam by his side. Given a choice of Heaven or Hell after death, I truly believe he would have asked for the Empty.

As far as the S12-14 Mary, less said about her the better. Although, I think Sam did understand better about Dean's feelings this time. I think he showed that when he held Castiel back at Mary's funeral. But Dean still couldn't mourn with Sam. Because Sam unfortunately never got tombond with Mary. Instead, she chose to bond with Jack, because he "needed" a mother. Sam was, again, *denied* a mother, and Dean had, again, *lost* a mother. 

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, MAK said:

Sam was always moaning about how he wanted a normal/safe life. And he was constantly denied things, a home, a normal family life (even a single parent scenario). Dean had those things and lost them. It made Dean hold on tight to everything that he did still have, even possibly to an obsessive degree. I'm sure Dean had to leave behind babysitters he bonded with, friends, and perhaps even a pet. Just because Dean wasn't whining about what he doesn't have, what he never had, and what he can never have, doesn't mean he didn't feel the loss of those things. But he showed his mourning in other ways. Dean took the used up lemon rinds life gave him and made candy with stolen sugar. Sam just complained about only getting off-brand Tang.

This reminds me of a quote from a fanfic I read long ago (I actually copied it back then because it struck such a chord):

Dean took all his father's crap because he understood him, and tried to soften things for his kid brother because Sam didn't understand loss as well as the older two of them did. Sam understood deprivation more than loss. He understood the things he never had but had every right to, it was why he was always hungry, always wanting things, always running after things. Dean, on the other hand, understood loss more than deprivation, which was why he was always clinging to what little he had, instead of pursuing the things he didn't.

The interesting thing about this quote to me is that it doesn't make either one necessarily wrong.  They're just products of how they were raised and how they dealt with things, and I think this pretty much stayed true throughout the series.  

[Nick24]

22 minutes ago, MAK said:

Given a choice of Heaven or Hell after death, I truly believe he would have asked for the Empty.

Actually, there are a lot of issues with the Empty. First, they introduced it as nothingness in S13. Then they retconned it into ''Worse than Hell'' place in S14-15. 

Well, if we go with ''nothingness'', I do agree that Dean would choose the Empty. And this is very sad.  

ETA: Actually, Dean could choose Purgatory if it counts. He said in 10.19 The Werther Project:

Quote

DEAN: I always did love it here. It’s as good a place as any to call it a day, huh?

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

21 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, there are a lot of issues with the Empty. First, they introduced it as nothingness in S13. Then they retconned it into ''Worse than Hell'' place in S14-15. 

They ruined the Empty. I meant it in the way Billie first mentioned it. Just nothing, you cease to exist. 

And yes, Dean would choose Purgatory over Hell, possibly over Heaven. But he wouldn't be at peace. For a final, no coming back, he would crave the rest, and Heaven probably wouldn't be rest, so nothingness.

[Nick24]

34 minutes ago, MAK said:

They ruined the Empty. I meant it in the way Billie first mentioned it. Just nothing, you cease to exist. 

And yes, Dean would choose Purgatory over Hell, possibly over Heaven. But he wouldn't be at peace. For a final, no coming back, he would crave the rest, and Heaven probably wouldn't be rest, so nothingness.

Here I agree, especially on the bolded part. I saw Dean neither happy nor relieved nor at peace in 15.20 Heaven. It felt like something was still bothering him. IMO Dean didn't feel he belonged there. Maybe I'm overthinking, but that's what I got from Jensen's performance. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[bethy]

23 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I saw Dean neither happy nor relieved nor at peace in 15.20 Heaven. It felt like something was still bothering him. IMO Dean didn't feel he belonged there. Maybe I'm overthinking, but that's what I got from Jensen's performance. 

This probably isn't fair to Jensen because he's a tremendous actor, but my perspective on Dean's demeanor in heaven was that it was a product of Jensen's own dissatisfaction with Dean's death and the finale, that Jensen's unhappiness with how things were ending was bleeding through. Even the supposedly peaceful/happy reunion with Sam felt kind of perfunctory and more about relief that the damn show was over than anything else. Obviously MMV on that. :)

[MAK]

Dean was surprised he made it to Heaven, even knowing Jack was "God." He never believed the life he led would ever make him eligible for Heaven, and that didn't change. 

Earlier, he thought his hustling, drinking, and womanizing would be considered a sinful life, thus, Hell.

Later, after seeing how souls were judged in by Anubis in 14.08, Dean didn't think he had enough "good deeds" because of all the Purgatory, Gadreel, MoC, Michael, etc. choices he made freely and willingly. 

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, bethy said:

This probably isn't fair to Jensen because he's a tremendous actor, but my perspective on Dean's demeanor in heaven was that it was a product of Jensen's own dissatisfaction with Dean's death and the finale, that Jensen's unhappiness with how things were ending was bleeding through. Even the supposedly peaceful/happy reunion with Sam felt kind of perfunctory and more about relief that the damn show was over than anything else. Obviously MMV on that. :)

I don't see that way. IMO Jensen knows his character better than anyone (better than any writer for sure). I can assume, that Jensen realized that Heaven can give Dean neither peace nor happiness and that is why he played it that way.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

8 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I've said before somewhere, imo Dean was mentally lonely most of his life even when someone was physically around

This is a perfect description of Dean.

Which is why he’s always so ready to do anything to keep Sam in his life...

ETA even tho it’s not healthy.

Edited June 18, 2022 by roamyn

[roamyn]

I wish we could get over the narrative that Jensen hated the finale.

He initially was not happy with his character’s demise, but he has REPEATEDLY said in recent Cons that he now believes it was the right thing for Dean to die.

It just took some time and outside perspective.

Please stop repeating that Jensen hates the finale.

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

This is a perfect description of Dean.

Which is why he’s always so ready to do anything to keep Sam in his life.

I disagree on the bolded part. Dean might be ready to do anything to keep Sam alive.* But Dean had been always open to Sam having his own life apart from him. We've seen that many times - Stanford, between 5.02 and 5.04, etc.

Being apart from Sam was never Dean's issue. IMO Dean might feel more lonely even in Sam's presence. Sam had never been able to fill that hole inside Dean.

ETA: *But it was not because he could not let Sam go. It was because of his ''Take care of Sammy'' program, which leads us to the way Dean was raised.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I wish we could get over the narrative that Jensen hated the finale.

He initially was not happy with his character’s demise, but he has REPEATEDLY said in recent Cons that he now believes it was the right thing for Dean to die.

It just took some time and outside perspective.

Please stop repeating that Jensen hates the finale.

He might've told that in order to help the viewers to let it go. No one/nothing (incl. Jensen's own words) will ever convince me that he's OK with that piece of garbage finale. 

ETA: The issue is not Dean dying. The issue is how that went down and was framed. We've discussed that many times here, so I'll leave it.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I wish we could get over the narrative that Jensen hated the finale.

He initially was not happy with his character’s demise, but he has REPEATEDLY said in recent Cons that he now believes it was the right thing for Dean to die.

It just took some time and outside perspective.

Please stop repeating that Jensen hates the finale.

I think that was how he was sold on it.  That it was the right thing and that Dean couldn't function without Sam. 

I don't think he hated it, and I think he truly appreciated the scene with the brothers and the effort they put in to it, and I think he made his peace with it and found a way to accept it=but I don't believe he's truly 100% settled. 

Someone said to me, that Dean will never find peace until Jensen does. 

Given how many times he said he wants a reboot, I feel like this backs up that statement. 

[Nick24]

36 minutes ago, MAK said:

Dean was surprised he made it to Heaven, even knowing Jack was "God." He never believed the life he led would ever make him eligible for Heaven, and that didn't change. 

Earlier, he thought his hustling, drinking, and womanizing would be considered a sinful life, thus, Hell.

Later, after seeing how souls were judged in by Anubis in 14.08, Dean didn't think he had enough "good deeds" because of all the Purgatory, Gadreel, MoC, Michael, etc. choices he made freely and willingly. 

Completely agree. Another reason to loathe the finale and all that Dabb/Singer/Berens crap. 

Someone should have told Dean, that he'd done more good to this world. Someone should have acknowledged his value, his sacrifices and his legacy. But that never happened. So apparently by the end of his life Dean truly believed in everything he had been told about ''doing more harm than good'' , etc. This is really tragic. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

24 minutes ago, roamyn said:

He initially was not happy with his character’s demise, but he has REPEATEDLY said in recent Cons that he now believes it was the right thing for Dean to die.

He probably agreed that, from a narrative standpoint, Dean's dying first was warranted.  IMO, I feel his real objections were to how and when Dean dies.

Especially if he was thinking reboot even before the series ended. Because he talked about just there being a break, not really good-bye, etc. multiple times in interviews and cons.

[MAK]

9 hours ago, Nick24 said:

As I've said before somewhere, imo Dean was mentally lonely most of his life even when someone was physically around

IA. Dean never really had a person he could turn to for help and support.  Bobby was there somewhat, but, it wasn't a given. There was never any one who always only wanted what was best for Dean personally.

For Sam, that role was always filled by Dean.

[Nick24]

24 minutes ago, MAK said:

Especially if he was thinking reboot even before the series ended. Because he talked about just there being a break, not really good-bye, etc. multiple times in interviews and cons.

True! If Jensen's OK with 15.20, then why would he keep talking about reboot? Why would he create the prequel? IMO He's not at peace with that. He'd spent 15 years of his life only to see how his character was humiliated in the finale and how all his character development was nullified and all of a sudden his character purpose was only to support another character's journey. How on earth could anyone be happy with this? I might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, MAK said:

IA. Dean never really had a person he could turn to for help and support.  Bobby was there somewhat, but, it wasn't a given. There was never any one who always only wanted what was best for Dean personally.

For Sam, that role was always filled by Dean.

IMO Bobby became all about Sam by the end of Season 4. ''Boo hoo princess'' in 4.22, then ''not a person'' to Dean in 7.09 and at the same episode comforting Sam.

Benny could have become that person to Dean. Sonny from Bad Boys as well. But they were forgotten. Because apparently most of the writers wanted Dean to be Sam's servant only. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Nothing and nobody will ever make me believe Jensen was happy about that ending. Ever. He may have accepted it, since absolutely no one had his back on his reservations, and he's a team player and a professional,  so he towed the company line once it was a done deal. He made the best of a bad script with his performance in the barn scene, because that's who he is. But "loved it", or even liked it? Never. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Benny could have become that person to Dean. Sonny from Bad Boys as well. But they were forgotten. Because apparently most of the writers wanted Dean to be Sam's servant only. 

IMO Henriksen could have also become that person for Dean. After he realized that demons were real and that Dean wasn’t a bad guy he had a pretty good rapport with Dean and would have been a pretty good hunter. He also would have been a great ally since he was a federal agent just as Jody was to Bobby.

[MAK]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

IMO Henriksen could have also become that person for Dean.

OMG, yes! Henrikson was such wasted potential. He could have been their inside guy with LE.

12 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Sonny from Bad Boys as well.

Yes, Sonny was someone om Dean's side with no personal agenda. Unfortunately, although Dean kept in touch with him throughout, I think Dean stayed away to keep Sonny and his kids safe. He didn't want to bring Sonny into the hunting world.

(Although I like Lisa and Ben, I sometimes think of a what if  scenario where S5 was going to be the end of the show, maybe Dean should have gone to Sonny's to recuperate and then go to Lisa. Since we didn't find out about Sonny until 5 years later, so, if the show had ended in S5, I guess Sonny didn't exist.)

And who knows how many people Dean kept in contact with over the years? He was definitely shown to actively update people with new contact info, because Frank had Dean and Sam destroy and cancel all of their phones in S7, and Sonny had Dean's latest, current phone number. (Although that was probably a case of the writers forgetting stuff.)

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

IMO Henriksen could have also become that person for Dean. After he realized that demons were real and that Dean wasn’t a bad guy he had a pretty good rapport with Dean and would have been a pretty good hunter. He also would have been a great ally since he was a federal agent just as Jody was to Bobby.

IA. I have no idea why I always keep forgetting Henriksen.

1 hour ago, MAK said:

(Although I like Lisa and Ben, I sometimes think of a what if  scenario where S5 was going to be the end of the show, maybe Dean should have gone to Sonny's to recuperate and then go to Lisa. Since we didn't find out about Sonny until 5 years later, so, if the show had ended in S5, I guess Sonny didn't exist.)

Actually imo Lisa was also one of those few people who really respected Dean and accepted him who he was. She did not want Dean to change. Also I like that she said in 6.14: ''Don't apologize!''. It's great that at least someone thought that Dean didn't have to, because later apologizing became Dean's new job.

ETA: Also I liked his dialogue with Ben, when Ben said:

Quote

BEN: Why do you say it like you're so...bad?

This is refreshing, that someone considered Dean a good person and said it straight. I wish they ended their relationship in 6.14, because then Sera Gamble ruined all of it in 6.21. And for what? Apparently for extra drama, to put more guilt on Dean and make his self-worth issues even worse. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Actually imo Lisa was also one of those few people who really respected Dean and accepted him who he was.

Absolutely! Both Ben and Lisa accepted and loved Dean as is. Was even willing to give the long distance, when possible relationship a try, because she really *liked* Dean as a person. 

Also, I really appreciated that when Dean wanted a serious relationship, he didn't hide who he was and what he did. Sure Cassie rejected him, but he was honest about himself. He figured his SO should go into the relationship with both eyes open.

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

Absolutely! Both Ben and Lisa accepted and loved Dean as is. Was even willing to give the long distance, when possible relationship a try, because she really *liked* Dean as a person. 

IA. I liked how they were dealing with Lisa/Ben/Dean relationship and Ben/Lisa attitudes towards Dean before 6.21.

Also, in 6.01 Lisa told Dean:

Quote

LISA: You know what I wanted, more than anything was a guy that Ben could look up to like a dad...  'Cause it was the best year of my life.

She wanted her son to look up to Dean!!! That was so amazing to hear. IMO one of the best things anyone has ever told Dean. 

Also I was shocked that Ben was blaming himself for Dean not coming back and was apologizing (but he did not have to, that wasn't his fault). I thought I was hallucinating.

2 hours ago, MAK said:

Also, I really appreciated that when Dean wanted a serious relationship, he didn't hide who he was and what he did. Sure Cassie rejected him, but he was honest about himself. He figured his SO should go into the relationship with both eyes open.

 Oh, I agree! I loved that Dean's honesty. This says a lot about Dean as a person. Sam on the other hand was lying to both Jessica and Amelia*. I don't judge, that was his choice. IMO Sam wanted to live with them in some kind of illusion, where his partners would know and like only that part of Sam he allowed them to know. 

Dean told both Cassie and Lisa about what his life looked like in order to give them an opportunity to decide, whether they really want this relationship.

Dean just did not want to live in some dreams, because he knew that sooner or later the reality would knock at the door.

*And those writers wanted us to think that Dean was a big liar, whereas Sam was the idol of honesty. Ridiculous.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

22 hours ago, MAK said:

IA. Dean never really had a person he could turn to for help and support.  Bobby was there somewhat, but, it wasn't a given. There was never any one who always only wanted what was best for Dean personally.

For Sam, that role was always filled by Dean.

I would say Benny and possibly Charlie.  And both of those times Sam was directly involved in them leaving Dean.

Benny because Sam was a hypocrite that Benny could possibly be a ‘good’ vampire (uh, didn’t you plead Lenore’s case, Sam?!), making Dean choose between the two.

Charlie, because Sam is partly responsible for her death.  For almost bullying her to help with the decoding, even tho she initially didn’t want to, because 1) Dean said to let it go, 2) she knew there’d be consequences.

It’s like Chuck said, The Darkness was released because Sam couldn’t deal w/Demon Dean out in the world, but the world would’ve survived.

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Benny because Sam was a hypocrite that Benny could possibly be a ‘good’ vampire (uh, didn’t you plead Lenore’s case, Sam?!), making Dean choose between the two.

Or Kate right a few episodes before. He was ok with letting Kate (that werewolf from 8.04) go and they did not even know her and he didn't make anyone go after her. But then he was doing all he could to ruin Benny's life and make Dean ditch his friend. 

15 minutes ago, roamyn said:

It’s like Chuck said, The Darkness was released because Sam couldn’t deal w/Demon Dean out in the world, but the world would’ve survived.

Apparently Robbie was the only writer, who was ok with admitting that Sam was in the wrong. 

15 minutes ago, roamyn said:

I would say Benny and possibly Charlie.  And both of those times Sam was directly involved in them leaving Dean.

I'm not sure about Charlie. IMO Dean considered her more as a sister, so another person he should take care of.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

12 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I’m not sure about Charlie. IMO Dean considered her more as a sister, so another person he should take care of.

Oh I agree that Dean saw himself as her protector, his little sister or his Queen of Moondoor.

But I believe she could’ve been one that he might confide in because he trusted her and her intelligence, completely.

I hated Sam so much during the Benny arc.  He wouldn’t even consider that Martin was an a-hole.  He let Martin knock Dean out!!!!  They left him cuffed to the register not knowing if Dean could’ve had a concussion.  And he refused to listen to Dean when Dean took the time to go to Kermit to explain that Martin threatened Elizabeth. He refused to believe that was surviving off blood donations (not even killing cattle or other animals). And the rage on Sam’s face when he shook Benny’s hand....

And yes, how do we love thee, Robbie Thompson....

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

And the rage on Sam’s face when he shook Benny’s hand....

And that nasty voice every time he was saying ''Benny''. He wanted Benny dead only because he was Dean's friend and had done something Sam did not even bother to try. The same issue was with Crowley. Sam could have killed him easily in 9A, but he didn't. But then after Sam realized that Crowley became closer to Dean, he all of a sudden started his ''We need to kill Crowley''. More than that, Sam wanted DEAN to kill Crowley. Why? I mean, Crowley could be killed with the knife or an ordinary angel blade. Sam could have done this himself. It seemed Sam liked that Dean was the one who had killed Benny and he wanted exactly the same situation with Crowley to make sure Sam himself would be blameless and this would be all on Dean.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

19 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Edited June 19, 2022 by roamyn
Duplicate post

[roamyn]

17 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

The same issue was with Crowley. Sam could have killed him easily in 9A, but he didn't. But then after Sam realized that Crowley became closer to Dean, he all of a sudden started his ''We need to kill Crowley''.

Well Sam had wanted Crowley dead since S5.  He tried to knife him several times.  I honestly don’t think Ruby’s knife could’ve taken Crowley out, even before he became King of Hell.

Dean even prayed to Chuck to bring back Crowley, but he didn’t do it in front of Sam, because he knew Sam would’ve objected.

But Sam had no problem becoming the protégée of the most powerful witch.  In fact, he went behind Dean’s back giving her the page from the Black Grimoire to make her more powerful, just to have her kill Reapers.  Reapers, who did nothing evil to deserve that.  But Sam said he “understood “.

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Well Sam had wanted Crowley dead since S5.  He tried to knife him several times.  I honestly don’t think Ruby’s knife could’ve taken Crowley out, even before he became King of Hell.

But imo Sam got some obsession with killing him in 9.16 and he asked Dean to kill Crowley in the end of 9.16.  And that was when Sam had seen Dean's reaction to the First Blade. That was weird. Btw, Crowley was just a crossroad demon. They can be killed with the knife IIRC. 

10 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Dean even prayed to Chuck to bring back Crowley, but he didn’t do it in front of Sam, because he knew Sam would’ve objected.

Dean would have never prayed in front of anyone. IMO it had nothing to do with Crowley. 

10 minutes ago, roamyn said:

But Sam had no problem becoming the protégée of the most powerful witch.  In fact, he went behind Dean’s back giving her the page from the Black Grimoire to make her more powerful, just to have her kill Reapers.  Reapers, who did nothing evil to deserve that.  But Sam said he “understood “.

Sam is the biggest hypocrite on the show. Castiel as well. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[roamyn]

Oh, BTW @Nick24, I really enjoy debating and discussing with you.  Even if I don’t agree or sometimes enjoy Sam’s or Jack’s stories and you don’t, it’s always interesting to read your insight.  You’re very knowledgeable, even if I do think you hate Sam a bit too much.  😝

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Btw, Crowley was just a crossroad demon. They can be killed with the knife IIRC. 

12 minutes ago, roamyn said:

He was the King of the Crossroads.  Like Becky said, he was Lilith’s right hand man.  I think his power level was similar to Alistair, and he couldn’t be killed with the knife.

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, roamyn said:

Oh, BTW @Nick24, I really enjoy debating and discussing with you.  Even if I don’t agree or sometimes enjoy Sam’s or Jack’s stories and you don’t, it’s always interesting to read your insight. 

Thank you ;) I do enjoy discussing with you too. I love discussing in general and I love getting to know the other viewers' thoughts even if I do not agree sometimes. It's entertaining and that is why I love this forum so much!

2 hours ago, roamyn said:

 You’re very knowledgeable, even if I do think you hate Sam a bit too much.  😝

I knew! I knew someone would say that at some point! 😂

You might be surprised, but I do not consider myself as a Sam hater. Well, I know it sounds weird after everything I've written.

Do I like the character of Sam?  I guess I don't. He was annoying and boring for my taste. Do I hate most of his action? I do. Do I hate his attitudes towards Dean and Dean/Sam relationship in general? Oh yes, I truly do! Do I hate Sam as a person? Probably I don't.**

Sam's character was a victim of the showrunners' love and obsession with him. Every time they had a chance to deal with Sam's crap and give him some maturity* /growth, they did not use it. They always blamed Dean in Sam's actions (Fallen Idols, Southern Comfort, Torn and Frayed, Sacrifice, etc.). As I and many other people have said it before, Season 4 did not damage Sam's character. Fallen Idols did. And that episode finally killed Sam/Dean brotherly bond as well.

*I mean the real maturity, not Carver's version.

They could have done that in S5, S8, S10, S11, but no, they always slipped into the same old.

Sam was more of a plot device. Unfortunately, the writers were too blind to see it. It also seems like Jared was OK with this, he loves 5.22, 8.23, 15.20. I do loathe those episodes and I do believe that those episodes also damaged Sam's character exactly because of the writers' obsession with him. 

Now I think there were two characters I loathed the most by the end of the show - Jack and Castiel. Jack had stolen the show and I was not interested in Jacknatural at all. He was Dabb's pet, Sue and nothing more. Also he was superboring. Nothing against Alex Calvert, btw. I haven't seen him anywhere else to judge.

As for Castiel, he quickly became the most loathsome and unwatchable character thanks to Robert Berens. The words that dick without wings ''angel'' told Dean in 15.09 The Trap were probably as much disgusting as Sam's The Purge. 

ETA: AFAIK Misha was OK with that too. It was very unpleasant to get to know about his business with Berens about 15.18 behind Jensen's back.

ETA2: **I've been thinking about that. Honestly I don't know. Maybe I do hate him. Maybe I don't. He's just done/said so many horrible things to Dean, which lead me from ''I dislike Sam'' to ''I hate Sam''. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Do like like the character of Sam?  I guess I don't. He was annoying and boring for my taste. Do I hate most of his action? I do. Do I hate his attitudes towards Dean and Dean/Sam relationship in general? Oh yes, I truly do!

So do I!

[roamyn]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Do like like the character of Sam?  I guess I don't. He was annoying and boring for my taste. Do I hate most of his action? I do. Do I hate his attitudes towards Dean and Dean/Sam relationship in general? Oh yes, I truly do! Do I hate Sam as a person? Probably I don't.

Sam was bring throughout most of the series.  I did like his arc is S2, with the psychic powers and S4 being manipulated by Ruby (even if I growled at the tv 99% of the time he was on - it was at least interesting watching him change).  Soulless Sam was interesting as well.  I also think JP’s skills improved over the course of the show.  But yeah, I would agree that he was just too bland for me.

That’s why I’m a Crowley gal!

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

Now I think there were two characters I loathed the most by the end of the show - Jack and Castiel. Jack had stolen the show and I was not interested in Jacknatural at all. He was Dabb's pet, Sue and nothing more. Also he was superboring. Nothing against Alex Calvert, btw. I haven't seen him anywhere else to judge.

I didn’t like Jack at first either.  But now I do find him okay, once he loses his soul.  Maybe it’s because he kills a character that should never have come back.  But TPTB had no idea what to do with Jack.  Dabb just wanted his own Mary Sue character because he was jealous of Jensen.  BTW Alex is a very good actor.  ‘SPN’ really gave him nothing to showcase it.  He’s been acting since he was a small child, and has now retired, as he’s burnt out.

As for Cas, I like him.  (My husband likes him best)  I just don’t like how weak & whiney they made him aft S7.  Cuckolded by Metadouche?  Really?!  They dropped the ball not keeping Godstiel for most of S7.  That would’ve been a great storyline, vs the Leviathans.

Edited June 19, 2022 by roamyn