“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Nick24]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:34 AM, ahrtee said:

To my mind, for all Sam (and others) kept saying that Dean can't stand being alone, it seems like it was Sam who had to have someone around him, to support him and make him feel important.  Dean just did his job, with or without help.  

This!!!!! We were always shown that Dean was capable of functioning on his own just fine. Sam on the other hand was not and we were shown that too.

I just do not get, why they were trying to convince us in the opposite. 

I can assume that Sam's The Purge speech about ''Dean can't stand being alone'' was the writers' thinking and their intent to convince us in that. But the thing is, since the beginning they had been showing the opposite. It's either they were that blind with their Sam's goggles or they weren't giving much credit to the viewers' intelligence.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

This!!!!! We were always shown that Dean was capable of functioning on his own just fine. Sam on the other hand was not and we were shown that too.

I just do not get, why they were trying to convince us in the opposite. 

I can assume that Sam's The Purge speech about ''Dean can't stand being alone'' was the writers' thinking and their intent to convince us in that. But the thing is, since the beginning they had been showing the opposite. It's either they were that blind with their Sam's goggles or they wasn't giving much credit to the viewers' intelligence.

TBH, they've been pulling that "Dean can't stand to be alone" crap since season 1, with the idea that he went to get Sam after John dumped him, with the "I can.  I don't want to," meaning that he really couldn't.  So I'm kind of used to it, and tend to ignore it. 

But what really annoys me is the other side of it:  those (even some Dean fans) who still say that Sam can get along fine by himself, unlike Dean.  Those people never seem to recognize that Sam has *never* actually been alone without finding himself a Dean-substitute very quickly.  Maybe he didn't become suicidal (though IKWYDLS and even Mystery Spot did seem to show him as borderline) but he also surrounded himself with people who would bat their eyelashes at him adoringly.  Hell, when Dean/Michael went missing, he got himself a whole army to tell him how wonderful "the Chief" is.  That's probably why he gets annoyed when RealDean shows up again, because he doesn't behave the way Sam's followers do, and support him unconditionally.  Love, yes.  Agreeing with his actions without questioning, not so much.  

Edited May 28, 2022 by ahrtee

[Nick24]

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, they've been pulling that "Dean can't stand to be alone" crap since season 1, with the idea that he went to get Sam after John dumped him, with the "I can.  I don't want to," meaning that he really couldn't.  So I'm kind of used to it, and tend to ignore it. 

But what really annoys me is the other side of it:  those (even some Dean fans) who still say that Sam can get along fine by himself, unlike Dean.  Those people never seem to recognize that Sam has *never* actually been alone without finding himself a Dean-substitute very quickly.  Maybe he didn't become suicidal (though IKWYDLS and even Mystery Spot did seem to show him as borderline) but he also surrounded himself with people who would bat their eyelashes at him adoringly.  Hell, when Dean/Michael went missing, he got himself a whole army to tell him how wonderful "the Chief" is.  That's probably why he gets annoyed when RealDean shows up again, because he doesn't behave the way Sam's followers do, and support him unconditionally.  Love, yes.  Agreeing with his actions without questioning, not so much.  

It seems like Sam had low self-esteem too, but it was kinda corrupted, because he wanted other people to make him feel better and bigger (Dean, Ruby, Amelia, Chief nonsense). So his issues with self-esteem were imo all about himself and his own feelings.

Dean on the other hand with his low-esteem had been finding comfort in helping OTHERS, not himself. That is why he is an actual hero in my book. He had never been trying to make things all about himself. Dean always put the needs of others before his own even if it hurt him. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

To my mind, for all Sam (and others) kept saying that Dean can't stand being alone, it seems like it was Sam who had to have someone around him, to support him and make him feel important.  Dean just did his job, with or without help.  

Love this point. For all of the codependency in their relationship Dean was always shown to be able to function without Sam. Sure he obviously missed his brother, but he accepted the situation and moved on. He was even capable of working with another partner which was evident during his hunt for Raphael with Cas during season 5. Sam went on without Dean, but his life always looked bleak and empty as shown in season 5, season 8 and in the finale. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by DeeDee79

[Nick24]

There is also one thing about writing for Sam and Dean, which had been annoying me all along.

Dean had been always blamed for so-called self-pity parties. And every time the writers' mouthpieces were talking ''Boo hoo, Dean's self-pity party'', etc. I was wondering ''What self-pity are they talking about? Are you delusional?'' Because that wasn't true. IIRC Dean had never expressed self-pity.

Then what was he doing? Dean was expressing guilt and remorse for the people who in his opinion had gotten hurt because of him (even if this wasn't true). But he had never been doing this about himself. Remember the beginning of S8, when Dean convinced himself, that it was his fault, that Cas hadn't gotten out of Purgatory? That once again highlighted how messed up Dean's psyche was, but it was not self-pity.

Sam on the other hand was the one, who had been playing self-pity parties since the beginning. First, after Jessica's death with Sam's ''Don't say you know how it feels...''. Then after Dean's demon deal ''How could you do this to me?'' Then with ''I am a new level of freak''. Then the same story with Amelia. Then once again Sam's speech in 8.23.

But my all time favorite is Sam's the Purge speech. He did it all about himself. I mean, Kevin was a victim in that situation. Kevin was killed. But no, Sam was talking only about his feelings being hurt. He did not even mention Kevin in his speech. 

Dean on the other hand was feeling sorry for Kevin, not for himself. 

IMO Sam was the one being all about self-pity and we were clearly shown that. But of course none of it had ever been addressed.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, Nick24 said:

There is also one thing about writing for Sam and Dean, which had been annoying me all along.

Dean had been always blamed for so-called self-pity parties. And every time the writers' mouthpieces were talking ''Boo hoo, Dean's self-pity party'', etc. I was wondering ''What self-pity are talking about? Are you delusional?'' Because that wasn't true. IIRC Dean had never expressed self-pity.

Then what was he doing? Dean was expressing guilt and remorse for the people who in his opinion had gotten hurt because of him (even if this wasn't true). But he had never been doing this about himself. Remember the beginning of S8, when Dean convinced himself, that it was his fault, that Cas hadn't gotten out of Purgatory? That once again highlighted how messed up Dean's psyche was, but it was not self-pity.

Sam on the other hand was the one, who had been playing self-pity parties since the beginning. First, after Jessica's death with Sam's ''Don't say you know how it feels...''. Then after Dean's demon deal ''How could you do this to me?'' Then with ''I am a new level of freak''. Then the same story with Amelia. Then once again Sam's speech in 8.23.

But my all time favorite is Sam's the Purge speech. He did it all about himself. I mean, Kevin was a victim in that situation. Kevin was killed. But no, Sam was talking only about his feelings being hurt. He did not even mention Kevin in his speech. 

Dean on the other hand was feeling sorry for Kevin, not for himself. 

IMO Sam was the one being all about self-pity and we were clearly shown that. But of course none of it had ever been addressed.

The Purge speech with the writers gleefully touting about Sam speaking "hard truths" was one of the most obnoxious moments in the show. And if the scene was supposed to show that it was painful for Sam to say these things? Don't play the scene as if he went to his room afterwards to have an orgasm. 

[Nick24]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Purge speech with the writers gleefully touting about Sam speaking "hard truths" was one of the most obnoxious moments in the show. And if the scene was supposed to show that it was painful for Sam to say these things? Don't play the scene as if he went to his room afterwards to have an orgasm. 

Did the writers really think that??? I totally agree with your last sentence. Sam was imo really pleased with himself. That was disgusting. Actually I could barely look at his face after that episode.

I just do not get it. Why were the writers' heads so deep in Sam's ass? Did JP have something on them?

[Nick24]

There is also one question, that has been bothering me.

In 9.10 Road Trip Sam said:

Quote

SAM: You lied to me. Again.

What did that ''again'' mean? I do not get it. When had Dean been lying to Sam before that? The only time I can recall - Amy Pond nonsense. But they solved it in 7.07. So what the heck was Sam talking about? 

IIRC Sam had been always hiding things from Dean:

Visions in S1, what Azazel did to him in S2-3, his business with Ruby and demon blood in S4, coughing the blood under the trials (right after Sam wanted Dean to trust him) in S8, etc. 

And my favorite thing on the topic of lying. Sam devalued the whole meaning of Dean's life with his Purge speech because poor baby Sam was so hurt by lies. And then in few episodes later he was lying to KEVIN!GHOST! Really? Hypocrisy here and there on Sam's part. And yet according to Sam/the writers Dean was lying liar who lied. Disgusting again.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 Don't play the scene as if he went to his room afterwards to have an orgasm. 

I love your interpretation so much! I just want to point out, that imo the climax of his orgasm was, when he said:

From 9.13 The Purge

Quote

SAM: You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.

Just because his voice imo sounded so arrogant, so smug. And that nasty smile. I was yelling ''GET AWAY FROM MY SCREEN AND NEVER COME BACK!".

[MAK]

16 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Dean on the other hand with his low-esteem had been finding comfort in helping OTHERS, not himself. That is why he is an actual hero in my book. He had never been trying to make things all about himself. Dean always put the needs of others before his own even if it hurt him. 

My HC is that this is why he is the Righteous Man and the true Servant of Heaven (from Whore of Babylon episode). He is literally following God's will ... "Love them (humans) more than me." Dean always put individual humans (and humanity) above himself, the angels, and God/Chuck.

It's also one of the reasons I never bought into the John was the Righteous Man,  but didn't break in Hell, idea. He could not have gotten off the rack even if the gate had opened. He would have been already off. And he was self-righteous putting the ends ahead if the means.

Edited May 29, 2022 by MAK
Typo

[MAK]

17 hours ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, they've been pulling that "Dean can't stand to be alone" crap since season 1, with the idea that he went to get Sam after John dumped him, with the "I can.  I don't want to," meaning that he really couldn't.  So I'm kind of used to it, and tend to ignore it.

I keep banging my head on this drum....

Dean went to get Sam because of John's voicemail! Not because he was feeling lonely and scared! Why does everyone forget/ignore John's voicemail in the Pilot? Even the writers?

Dean might have felt all the stuff he said he felt standing outside Sam's apartment the finale, but he went because of the voicemail! Who knows if the recording was truly cutting in and out, or if Dean actually doctored the original recording so that Sam only heard a garbled version.

No one mentions it again....sigh.

[Nick24]

16 minutes ago, MAK said:

My HC is that this is why he is the Righteous Man and the true Servant of Heaven (from Whore of Babylon episode). He is literally following God's will ... "Love them (humans) more than me." Dean always put individual humans (and humanity) above himself, the angels, and God/Chuck.

You should print this out and send to all former writers/producers of SPN and also put it on every SPN-related forum. I 100% agree with your HC! 

I've also read some thoughts here that the True Servant of Heaven = the True Servant of Humanity, because Heaven consists of human souls, that create their own paradises. I agree with that too.

I wish the show had addressed that.

8 minutes ago, MAK said:

Dean went to get Sam because of John's voicemail! Not because he was feeling lonely and scared! Why does everyone forget/ignore John's voicemail in the Pilot? Even the writers?

More than that. Dean was willing to let Sam go by the end of the Pilot. He came back only because he felt that something was wrong. And Sam went with Dean only to get revenge. Sam's choice had nothing to do with Dean.

ETA: And Dean's actions had nothing to do with ''being alone'' either.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

20 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

ETA: And Dean's actions had nothing to do with ''being alone'' either.

Dean had already said that he had been hunting alone "I'm 26 dude". He didn't go to Sam because he was afraid of being alone he went because he was afraid something bad had happened to their dad and he wanted Sam's help.  For Dean family was everything and he needed his family. At that point in the series they didn't have a network of friends or other Hunters to call on. 

Sam went with Dean because Dean asked him to. He continued hunting with Dean for revenge....and because there was 15 years of the show about the brothers to film.

[Nick24]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

 For Dean family was everything and he needed his family. .

I agree. But imo it had been framing by the writers like Dean chained Sam up. But that was not true. Dean was always willing to let Sam live his own life. That is why the whole absurd of Dean ''not being able to be alone'' had been annoying me all the time. 

[Aithne]

11 minutes ago, MAK said:

It's also one of the reasons I never bought into the John was the Righteous Man,  but didn't break in Hell, idea. He could not have gotten off the rack even if the gate had opened. He would have been already off.

Yeah, this was clear evidence to me that Alistair was fucking with Dean. He needed to bring out the big guns, and if you're someone who knows Dean inside and out, you know there's no weaker spot than the idea that he might've let John down. But given what we saw at the end of S2, it was certainly a fabrication. 

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

It's also one of the reasons I never bought into the John was the Righteous Man

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

Yeah, this was clear evidence to me that Alistair was fucking with Dean.

Even if we put Alistair and his lies aside, I will never believe that John was the Righteous Man either. His main goal was to get revenge just like Sam's*. Of course, John was helping people, but imo he (and Sam) did not find comfort in it unlike Dean.

*BTW Sam and John had really a lot in common

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

I agree. But imo it had been framing by the writers like Dean chained Sam up. But that was not true. Dean was always willing to let Sam live his own life. That is why the whole absurd of Dean ''not being able to be alone'' had been annoying me all the time. 

I never saw it that way though. Dean had no say in what Sam did or didn't do. And Sam did go off on his own and Dean did just fine. Yes he would have preferred that they were all hunting together as a family unit (Shadow) but he wasn't going to stand in Sam's way if he wanted to take off (Scarecrow). He was living his best life with Lisa and Ben until Sam showed up. 

I always thought that it was Sam that needed Dean. Sam proved that when Dean went to hell. Sam went way off the reservation.

Turned out they were better together than apart.

[Nick24]

23 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I always thought that it was Sam that needed Dean. Sam proved that when Dean went to hell. Sam went way off the reservation.

I agree with you here on the bolded part, because like you've said we were SHOWN that. I meant in my post, that the writers' intent was quite the opposite, because we were TOLD through side characters' mouths several times, that Dean was the one who dragged Sam into hunting and ruined his normal life.

Example: Charlie words in 8.11 LARP:

Quote

Charlie: So he found some normalcy with this chick, and now it's gone... again. Thanks to you.

I know that was about Amelia, but still.

Also in 7.04 Defending Your Life they also framed like that was Dean who hadn't let Sam live his normal life at college and also dragged Jo into hunting. Absurd.

Of course, no one dragged Sam into hunting. 

And of course, Dean was doing on his own just fine. But the thing is, that imo the writers wanted to convince us in the opposite.

23 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Turned out they were better together than apart.

Here I disagree. IMO Dean is stronger without Sam. Dean is stronger with people who truly respect him - Benny, Castiel in early seasons, even Crowley in some way.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

You know, there is one thing, that makes Dean's life even more tragic in my eyes.

The only time of Dean's entire life when he was allowed to think only about himself and his own wishes was his time as a demon.

Dean's time as a demon was the only time in his life when he was totally FREE. Free of guilt. Free of pain. Free of the weight of the world. Free of being responsible to babysit his brother. 

This is so sad that in order to make Dean think about his wishes he needed to be turned into his worst nightmare.

[catrox14]

Apparently, per those that saw her panel at Purcon this weekend, Sam Smith (Mary) said that the "I never was"...line from Dean to Mary in 12.14 during their argument about Mary's mother role...was an Ad-lib by Jensen. So any credit I ever gave Berens for his writing of Dean in s12 is completely gone.  He couldn't even give Dean a good rebuttal to Mary's bullshit "I'm not jus a MoM " and "You are not a child" thing.  Damnnnn

Edited May 29, 2022 by catrox14
clarity

[Nick24]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Apparently, per those that saw her panel at Purcon this weekend, Sam Smith (Mary) said that the "I never was"...line from Dean to Mary in 12.14 during their argument about Mary's mother role...was an Ad-lib by Jensen. So any credit I ever gave Berens for his writing of Dean in s12 is completely gone.  He couldn't even give Dean a good rebuttal to Mary's bullshit "I'm not jus a MoM " and "You are not a child" thing.  Damnnnn

Yes, it was. I read the script for that disaster of an episode. Actually, no surprise. No way in Hell Berens would have given that line to Dean. In the script there was pretty clearly framed, that Dean was TOO angry. Screw you, Berens.

ETA: Berens' scripts on paper are much much worse than on screen.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Apparently, per those that saw her panel at Purcon this weekend, Sam Smith (Mary) said that the "I never was"...line from Dean to Mary in 12.14 during their argument about Mary's mother role...was an Ad-lib by Jensen. So any credit I ever gave Berens for his writing of Dean in s12 is completely gone.  He couldn't even give Dean a good rebuttal to Mary's bullshit "I'm not jus a MoM " and "You are not a child" thing.  Damnnnn

Damn. Good on Jensen. 

[Nick24]

In that script 12.14 was written this: "Dean was TOO angry to feel for her"

Then when Dean said ''Good'' after Mary finished her talkies about the hunter who was killed, there was ''great'' note:

Quote

And Sam shoots Dean a look--

And then Sam was supposed to say:

Quote

SAM: Guys, come on --

So again, Dean was supposed to be mean, and Sam was supposed to be sympathetic. I am glad that was cut. At least I do not remember that line.

I cannot even count how many times the word ''angry'' was used towards Dean in this script. More than that: when Ketch was talking about Dean being a killer (this word was underlined) and needing to ''track, trap, punch and gut sth'' Then Berens wrote this:

Quote

On Dean. He can't help it: he relates to hard to this.

Actually, I still cannot figure out, whom I hate more - Dabb or Berens.

ETA: So apparently Berens considered Dean just as a killer, who cared only about hunting things. 

Saving people was only for Sam per Berens.

SCREW HIM!!!

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

30 minutes ago, Aithne said:

Damn. Good on Jensen. 

Jensen was too good to these dicks  writers.

[Nick24]

God, talking about the Purge and Sacrifice wasn't that hard and painful as talking about Berens and his disasters.

[Nick24]

At least in the Carver era Dean was allowed to be about saving people. And that was coming first.

From 10.13 Halt & Catch Fire

Quote

DEAN: My peace is helping people. 

At least Mr Carver admitted that Dean at his core was about helping people and indeed that point was important for him.

Dabb and Berens took this away from Dean and made it look like he was just a killer at his core.

Have I already said, that Dabb and Berens can go screw themselves?

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, Nick24 said:

- Benny, Castiel in early seasons, even Crowley in some way.

That always seemed purposeful to me.  Benny was "the better brother". He was written to be almost too perfect. They had all those cool adventures in Purgatory, vampire hunts up top and never had the opportunity to betray Dean because he wasn't around long enough. And if we are going with original scripts was killing people. To which Dean turned a blind eye. 

Castiel I always thought was initially written to be the perfect friend as well. He was an angel who was the antithesis of Sam. Castiel was pure, told Dean he was chosen by God (which he wasn't Dean was chosen by Michael). He was an all powerful being that looked up to Dean.  Kind of everything Sam wasn't. However Castiel stayed around long enough to betray Dean in the worst way possible, at least for Dean. 

Crowley always had his own agenda. That was the only part of MOC Dean story that bothered me. Dean goes on a quest to kill Gadreel and then suddenly trusts Crowley (who had just recently killed Sarah and almost killed Jody). It didn't gel all that well, at least for me.

Sam was written to be more of a real life character. Mostly he was the typical writing trope of younger brother butting heads with his older brother. And yes betraying Dean in way that was unforgivable...at least at that moment.

And I do stand by they were stronger together. On their own Sam kept destroying the world and Dean either went to hell or turned into a demon. At least when they were together they were mostly Saving People.

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Edited May 29, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[FlickChick]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And if we are going with original scripts was killing people. To which Dean turned a blind eye. 

I'm assuming that you factually know this, and not Twitter nonsense. Probably the reason it never made it to the screen is that someone (probably Jensen) told the writer that Dean would never turn a blind eye to someone - anyone - killing humans. 

[Nick24]

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Sam was written to be more of a real life character.

IMO Sam never felt very real for me, because he was almost always whitewashed by the writers. Also I never saw much continuity in Sam's character either. 

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

At least when they were together they were mostly Saving People.

I guess Mr Carver and his S8 and S10 finale would disagree with you. S14 Finale as well.

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

. And if we are going with original scripts was killing people. To which Dean turned a blind eye. 

If they wanted to make it canon, they should have shown on screen. Otherwise, this is not true. In 8.09 Citizen Fang we were clearly shown, that Dean would have killed Benny, if he had evidences.

As for the rest, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Probably the reason it never made it to the screen is that someone (probably Jensen) told the writer that Dean would never turn a blind eye to someone - anyone - killing humans. 

I totally agree! If they really went there, that would have been utter Dean's character assassination.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

23 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Castiel I always thought was initially written to be the perfect friend as well. He was an angel who was the antithesis of Sam. Castiel was pure, told Dean he was chosen by God (which he wasn't Dean was chosen by Michael). He was an all powerful being that looked up to Dean.  Kind of everything Sam wasn't.

Would you mean that Sam was chosen by Lucifer? I do not think so. We were never told who had chosen Dean and Sam to be the vessels. 

25 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Crowley always had his own agenda. That was the only part of MOC Dean story that bothered me. Dean goes on a quest to kill Gadreel and then suddenly trusts Crowley (who had just recently killed Sarah and almost killed Jody). It didn't gel all that well, at least for me.

At least Crowley did respect Dean (we were shown that in S10) unlike his brother.

As for trusting Crowley, I had no problem, because earlier Sam and Dean were working with Meg, who had done much worse things like trapping John, helping Azazel to possess John, possessing Sam, killing Jo and Ellen. In spite all of it they were working with her. She was useful. So was Crowley.

[Nick24]

37 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That always seemed purposeful to me.  Benny was "the better brother". He was written to be almost too perfect. They had all those cool adventures in Purgatory, vampire hunts up top and never had the opportunity to betray Dean because he wasn't around long enough.

Why is it impossible to have at least one character of the entire show, who would be fully loyal to Dean?

ETA: I do not get it, why it is necessary for everyone to betray Dean at some point. It is like Dean is cursed and is not allowed to have true loyal friends, who would really respect him without any agendas.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Have I already said, that Dabb and Berens can go screw themselves?

Add Davy Perez to that, aka "I didn't watch 1 episode before I got this job!" and totally drunk Dabb's anti-Dean koolaid.

Edited May 29, 2022 by DeeDee79

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Why is it impossible to have at least one character of the entire show, who would be fully loyal to Dean?

ETA: I do not get it, why it is necessary for everyone to betray Dean at some point. It is like Dean is cursed and is not allowed to have true loyal friends, who would really respect him without any agendas.

Agree so much. Benny was immediately mistrusted by fandom (aka Sam stans) because they didn't want him to turn out to be good and they desperately wanted Sam's (irrational) distrust to be justified. They hated that Benny died being a good bro and still blame Dean for having the audacity to cherish their friendship. Complete and utter BS; Benny deserved better.

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Add Davy Perez to that, aka "I didn't watch 1 episode before I got this job!" and totally drunk Dabb's koolaid.

Did he really say that? OMG, I thought it could not get any worse.

I guess in S14-15 every writer was on Dabb's koolaid :(

[DeeDee79]

31 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

At least Crowley did respect Dean (we were shown that in S10) unlike his brother.

And Mark Sheppard said that Crowley would naturally gravitate towards Dean because he was an obvious leader. 

1 minute ago, Nick24 said:

Did he really say that? OMG, I thought it could not get any worse.

Yup! I read it on this very forum.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

And Mark Sheppard said that Crowley would naturally gravitate towards Dean because he was an obvious leader. 

Wow, apparently Mark Sheppard does know, what decent storytelling and characterization look like. I really respect that.

Now it seems obvious to me, why Mark S had problems with Dabb.

[Casseiopeia]

30 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Why is it impossible to have at least one character of the entire show, who would be fully loyal to Dean?

ETA: I do not get it, why it is necessary for everyone to betray Dean at some point. It is like Dean is cursed and is not allowed to have true loyal friends, who would really respect him without any agendas.

Because drama. It makes for better story telling if our hero's are in tragic situations. Paricularly on Supernatural.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Because drama. It makes for better story telling if our hero's are in tragic situations. Paricularly on Supernatural.

It doesn't, when they use the same old crap every damn time. This is boring and predictable.

[Casseiopeia]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Agree so much. Benny was immediately mistrusted by fandom (aka Sam stans) because they didn't want him to turn out to be good and they desperately wanted Sam's (irrational) distrust to be justified. They hated that Benny died being a good bro and still blame Dean for having the audacity to cherish their friendship. Complete and utter BS; Benny deserved better.

That may be true of some fans but I'm talking about the writing and the overall arc of the season was for Dean to turn away from Sam in the first half of the season. Dean was betrayed by Sam so he turned to his better brother. The way the story was written Dean came to forgive Sam in the second half. It didn't work for a lot of reasons but that was the story that Carver wanted to tell.

And yes a lot of fans were upset that Benny had to die. But he was killing people he had to go. At least it was Dean that killed him. I always thought that somehow Dean was going to save Benny. They strolled in and out of Purgatory enough times there should have been at least one opportunity to spring Benny.

5 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

It doesn't, when they use the same old crap every damn time. This is boring and predictable.

But that is how Supernatural has been written for 15 years. It never changed. And yes it became repetitive and predictable.

[Nick24]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That may be true of some fans but I'm talking about the writing and the overall arc of the season was for Dean to turn away from Sam in the first half of the season. Dean was betrayed by Sam so he turned to his better brother. The way the story was written Dean came to forgive Sam in the second half. It didn't work for a lot of reasons but that was the story that Carver wanted to tell.

Dean turning away from Sam? In Southern Comfort and Torn and Frayed I saw the opposite.

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And yes a lot of fans were upset that Benny had to die. But he was killing people he had to go. 

This IS NOT true, unless you can refer to some actual facts in some actual episode in S8

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But that is how Supernatural has been written for 15 years. It never changed. And yes it became repetitive and predictable.

That was what had ruined the show.

This is why I am glad that Benny was different. That he was not Dean's Ruby. That was something new. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That may be true of some fans but I'm talking about the writing and the overall arc of the season was for Dean to turn away from Sam in the first half of the season. Dean was betrayed by Sam so he turned to his better brother. The way the story was written Dean came to forgive Sam in the second half. It didn't work for a lot of reasons but that was the story that Carver wanted to tell.

To want to tell and actually to tell is quite different things. The most important is what Mr Carver did finally tell.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

50 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Would you mean that Sam was chosen by Lucifer?

Yes it was stated many times in S5. Gabriel in PONR told both the brothers they "were chosen for this boys. It's your destiny". 

12 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

This IS NOT true, unless you can refer to some actual facts in some actual episode in S8

Well since there were other posts here with parts of the script that were altered I included the cut scene. Please don't chop my head off. We are discussing a TV show. I didn't come here to start a fight.

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Yes it was stated many times in S5. Gabriel in PONR told both the brothers they "were chosen for this boys. It's your destiny". 

They never said WHO had chosen them. They were chosen to be the vessels. But who did that choice? Lucifer had been in the Cage for how long? How could he choose anything/anyone?

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

. I didn't come here to start a fight.

I never tried to start any fight. My apologies if it seemed like that.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

14 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

This is why I am glad that Benny was different. That he was not Dean's Ruby. That was something new.

Benny wasn't supposed to be anything like Ruby. The only one who couldn't see that Ruby was poison was Sam. The original description of Benny was a possible ally from Purgatory. I thought that would have been an awesome character to add to the show. But instead he was just used as a wedge between the brothers that made zero sense.

[Nick24]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Benny wasn't supposed to be anything like Ruby. The only one who couldn't see that Ruby was poison was Sam. The original description of Benny was a possible ally from Purgatory. I thought that would have been an awesome character to add to the show. But instead he was just used as a wedge between the brothers that made zero sense.

I guess the writers had a lot of problem with side characters, because so many potentially interesting characters were killed off. At the same time we were stuck with one-dimensional writers' pets.

Unfortunately Supernatural is a show of wasted potentials both for compelling storylines and interesting characters :(

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Lucifer had been in the Cage for how long? How could he choose anything/anyone?

After Azazel killed all the nuns to cast his spell  he asked Lucifer how to spring him from the cage. Lucifer told him to find/create Sam he was the only one who could do it (killing Lilith). Theoretically Lucifer had been planning his escape for a very long time.   And the narrative was that Sam was also in the church to become Lucifers vessel.

Of course Michael was assisting in springing Lucifer. So it looks like all the angels were conspiring to spring Lucifer. Even Castiel.

[Nick24]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

After Azazel killed all the nuns to cast his spell  he asked Lucifer how to spring him from the cage. Lucifer told him to find/create Sam he was the only one who could do it (killing Lilith). Theoretically Lucifer had been planning his escape for a very long time.   And the narrative was that Sam was also in the church to become Lucifers vessel.

Of course Michael was assisting in springing Lucifer. So it looks like all the angels were conspiring to spring Lucifer. Even Castiel.

Yeah, I see your point. But there so many plotholes. Lucifer asked Azazel to find a special child. This is why Azazel was creating his psychic kids. But then we were told that it was always supposed to be Sam. So what was the point of those psychic kids? Then we were told that Sam and Dean were born for that. So what was the point of the whole Azazel business in the first place? Contradictions and lazy writing I guess. 

[Nick24]

13 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Of course Michael was assisting in springing Lucifer. So it looks like all the angels were conspiring to spring Lucifer. Even Castiel.

That is true. Zachariah said that they had wanted Lucifer rising since the beginning in 4.22.

Actually, we can say that Azazel business was pointless and some kinda backup plan. At the same time Heaven had prepared both Sam and Dean to be the vessels*. And that was just happy coincidence that Azazel had chosen already chosen one😁

My head hurts. Searching for logic in SPN can be really hard.

*Only to replace Dean with Adam

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yup! I read it on this very forum.

That explains a lot, especially considering that Berens was supervising producer in S12. What was the point to write for the show you had never been interested in?

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nick24