“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don’t remember saying that it was you in particular; it was just a general statement based on overall discussion in fandom and these boards. If I was referring to you I would have directly quoted you. I guess it was another “interpretation” from one of my posts.

The things you were mentioning were the same types of things that I had been talking about in my posts just above in a different context. I apologize if my interpretation that you had gotten the examples from things seen in my posts and not somewhere else was wrong.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The things you were mentioning were the same types of things that I had been talking about in my posts just above in a different context. I apologize if my interpretation that you had gotten the examples from things seen in my posts and not somewhere else was wrong.

Thank you.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As I said, the "redemption" Sam needed for season 8 and 9, was for things that in my opinion, were out of character to begin with. So Carver has Sam do crappy stuff he needs redemption for in season 8 and 9, and then gives him a redemption that he gives grudgingly and while pointing out along the way through every character and his dog that bad things would happen if Sam did this... still had Sam do it, and then had him start an apocalypse

I understand you disagree with how it started but you asked what I saw as redemption and I think that was it. They even had Sam say in s11 that he should have tried harder in s8 so not only did we get to see Sam pull out a lot of questionable stops to find and save Dean, he got to psuedo apologize for s8 in s11.  To me that is redemption, or at minimum trying to undo some of the damage.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think he would have made a deal to get into Hell and try to pull Sam out himself.

But Sam had also tried to do something similar to that to no avail. No demons would have dealt with Dean either, saying that they had Sam just where they wanted him.

Dean may not have simply wanted vengeance on Lilith - though he did want vengeance later for Bobby, so I can't say that for sure... he may have - but I could see a demon talking Dean into trying to stop Lilith if only he had the right power.

I may be wrong, but I could see it happening. He was talked into going for the mark of Cain easily enough in order to stop Abbadon and I thought Lilith was just as dangerous if not more.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

To me that is redemption, or at minimum trying to undo some of the damage.

For me way too little, way too late and with too many added "digs" along the way - including Charlie and starting another apocalypse.

I can see what you are saying, I just don't agree that there actually was much effort put in there... and if season 11 was more of Dabb's doing, then he was actually the one to give Sam that psuedo-apology... not Carver.

For me, personally, it's also difficult to see something as really being redemption when it starts an apocalypse and includes a gruesome death the supposedly redeemed character gets blamed for... that looks to me more like a "this character screwed up big time" than redemption, but that's just my opinion on that.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I may be wrong, but I could see it happening. He was talked into going for the mark of Cain easily enough in order to stop Abbadon and I thought Lilith was just as dangerous if not more.

But that was because of the choices he made with tricking Sam into saying yes to Gadreel resulting in Kevin's death.  He wanted to do something to try and take Abaddon off the board because it was all he could do since he couldn't find Gadreel.  He didn't take on the Mark because of something someone else did.  He did it because he felt guilty and that he was poison. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can see what you are saying, I just don't agree that there actually was much effort put in there... and if season 11 was more of Dabb's doing, then he was actually the one to give Sam that psuedo-apology... not Carver.

I agree it was Dabb's doing and it started IMO in s10. Once he got full reins in s11 that's when IMO he went into overdrive on really putting Sam on the path to where he is now. He wants Super Sam IMO. 

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He wants Super Sam IMO. 

Two words: Red Meat.

And if that left any doubt in my mind, the season premiere made it unequivocally clear when Sam declared the throne of Hell off limits on his say so and freaking demons quaked in his presence. It's Sam's world (and apparently, underworld) and everyone else is just living in it.

[Res]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That still really bugs me, that Dabb made that "joke" and Jensen's reaction which didn't seem like he was amused by it.  I felt there was more truth to that anyone wants to admit.

Same here and this is exactly why I wish Jensen would see the writing on the wall and pull out of an administration that quite obviously doesn't want him, except for click bait and stage presence. Granted this is more for me so I don't need to watch tripe to see Jensen or Dean but then again the Dean we are seen is being categorically dismantled for the GeneralLeaderSamOverloadOFHellandEarth. 

[Reganne]

I dont understand.  If Dabb wants super Sam, why on earth would he have the character constantly getting knocked out in season 13.  What exactly is so super about getting knocked out all the time.  This type of speculation doesnt make sense to me.  

Not to mention, Dean still got the opportunity to figure out the djinn case on his own and also kill him all on his own.  Why would someone who wants to show super Sam allow that to happen? Shouldn't he have had Sam do that to showcase just how super he is?

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Not to mention, Dean still got the opportunity to figure out the djinn case on his own and also kill him all on his own.  Why would someone who wants to show super Sam allow that to happen? Shouldn't he have had Sam do that to showcase just how super he is?

Dean specifically made sure to mention it was all Sam.  So I don't think authorial intent was for the audience to see Dean as the leader or the savior in this. 

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I dont understand.  If Dabb wants super Sam, why on earth would he have the character constantly getting knocked out in season 13.  What exactly is so super about getting knocked out all the time.  This type of speculation doesnt make sense to me.  

I don't remember Sam getting knocked out all that much.  Not saying it didn't happen, just that I dont' remember it.  Here is what I remember for saving in terms of the brothers.  I'm defining saving as someone stepping in to stop them from getting hit or killed. 

Ep 1- Dean, Saved by Sam

Ep 2- Dean,  Saved by Sam

ep 3- Dean,  Needed to be saved by a Wayward Sue, and was raked over the coals for being to controlling.

ep 4-  Dean, needed to be saved by Jack (and Sam I think ).  Not to mention that horrid grief section.  The writing turned Dean into a bully in this one.

ep 5- Dean,  Saved by Sam and Billie.  Wanted to give up and stop fighting

ep 6- Tombstone- Dean,  saved by the sheriff (I think )

ep 7- I think this is the first one Dean didn't need a rescue

ep 8- By Smash.  Hell time used as comic relief.

ep 9/10- Another Wayward Sue rescue, but but brothers  But Dean was the one that held the gun on Kaia

ep 11- Yes, Sam needed to be saved but there was also the sledgehammer that Sam's heart was worth 500K. I would have gladly swapped Dean's place in this ep.  So being the one needing to be saved wasn't a bad thing in this case. 

ep 12- Saved by Rowena.  Made the dumb announcement about witch killing bullets and stood there, long enough for them to attack.

ep 13- Saved by Ketch (I think).

ep 14- I literally don't remember anything in this ep. 

ep15- I don't think either needed to be saved.

ep 16- I think Sam saved Dean from the dinosaur but I could be mis-remembering.

ep 17- I remember Sam getting hit with a frying pan (I think) but he didn't need to be saved, it turns out they were men of letters and trying to stop Sam and Dean.  Dean gets captured, too  But it was nice to see him save himself.

ep 18- Saved by Ketch in the AU, not to mention needing a lecture on stealth.

ep 19- I think this was pretty good for both brothers, although it introduced an interesting plot point for Dean that was dropped.

ep 20- Unfinished business- saved by Gabriel, lectured by Sam.

ep 21- Beat the devil- Sam needs to be saved by Lucifer but not treated as weakness, or held against him by anyone, Sam promoted to leader.

eo 22- Exodus- Honestly don't remember.  But Sam was clearly in the leader position with the AU people, Dean fixed and drove a bus, and got to be clingy.

ep 23- marionette fight, and saved by Sam. 

So I don;t see exactly what Dean fans have to celebrate here.  Sam might have gotten a few bumps on the noggin but I don't see him fairing too badly, other than ep 21, but like I said he still got promotion out of that.

Edited November 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

ep 11- Yes, Sam needed to be saved but there was also the sledgehammer that Sam's heart was worth 500K. I would have gladly swapped Dean's place in this ep.  So being the one needing to be saved wasn't a bad thing in this case. 

OMG I totally forgot about that part of the episode. LOL

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I dont understand.  If Dabb wants super Sam, why on earth would he have the character constantly getting knocked out in season 13.  What exactly is so super about getting knocked out all the time.  This type of speculation doesnt make sense to me.  

Well, Mary Sues are supposed to have some endearing weaknesses to prove that they're not (really) superhuman.  Apparently Sam's is getting tied up/knocked out.  Not that it ever affects his ability to do the job, or the respect he's given by everyone.  No one ever calls him weak or a bad hunter just because he was briefly knocked out, no matter how many times it happens.   

[Reganne]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean specifically made sure to mention it was all Sam.  So I don't think authorial intent was for the audience to see Dean as the leader or the savior in this. 

I don't remember Sam getting knocked out all that much.  Not saying it didn't happen, just that I dont' remember it.  Here is what I remember for saving in terms of the brothers.  I'm defining saving as someone stepping in to stop them from getting hit or killed. 

Ep 1-Saved by Sam

Ep 2- Saved by Sam

ep 3- Needed to be saved by a Wayward Sue, and was raked over the coals for being to controlling.

ep 4- needed to be saved by Jack (and Sam I think )\

ep 5- Saved by Sam and Billie.  Wanted to give up and stop fighting

ep 6- Tombstone- saved by the sheriff (I think )

ep 7- I think this is the first one Dean didn't need a rescue

ep 8- By Smash.  Hell time used as comic relief.

ep 9/10- Another Wayward Sue rescue (althought to be fair so did Sam). But Dean was the one that held the gun on Kaia

ep 11- Yes, Sam needed to be saved but there was also the sledgehammer that Sam's heart was worth 500K. I would have gladly swapped Dean's place in this ep

ep 12- Saved by Rowena.  Made the dumb announcement about witch killing bullets and stood there, long enough for them to attack.

ep 13- Saved by Ketch (I think).

ep 14- I literally don't remember anything in this ep. 

ep15- I don't think either needed to be saved.

ep 16- I think Sam saved Dean from the dinosaur but I could be mis-remembering.

ep 17- I remember Sam getting hit with a frying pan (I think) but he didn't need to be saved, it turns out they were men of letters and trying to stop Sam and Dean.  Dean gets captured, too  But it was nice to see him save himself.

ep 18- Saved by Ketch in the AU, not to mention needing a lecture on stealth.

ep 19- I think this was pretty good for both brothers, although it introduced an interesting plot point for Dean that was dropped.

ep 20- Unfinished business- saved by Gabriel, lectured by Sam.

ep 21- Beat the devil- Sam needs to be saved by Lucifer but not treated as weakness, or held against him by anyone, Sam promoted to leader.

eo 22- Exodus- Honestly don't remember.  But Sam was clearly in the leader position with the AU people, Dean fixed and drove a bus, and got to be clingy.

ep 23- marionette fight, and saved by Sam. 

So I don;t see exactly what Dean fans have to celebrate here.  Sam might have gotten a few bumps on the noggin but I don't see him fairing too badly, other than ep 21, but like I said he still got promotion out of that.

TBH I dont keep track of the saving thing, bc every character needs help at times and many times it's two of them working together.  Not to mention just as easily as you say Sam saved Dean in episode 23, I would say Dean saved Sam in that very episode.  As far as being knocked out/unconscious this is the track record for Sam the last half of season 13.

Ep 10 knocked out and tied to a tree (as was Dean)

Ep 11 knocked out and tied to table

Ep 12 punched out by Dean and knocked out

Ep 13 Not knocked out

Ep 14 Knocked down by Donatello

Ep 15 Knocked out......found by Dean on floor.  Dean makes comment about him taking hits to the head lately

Ep 16 Not knocked out

Ep 17 Tampered with food.  Goes unconscious and is dragged away

Ep 18 Gets knocked around by demons/asmodeus and does nothing to help himself

Ep 19 Gets knocked out by Rowena and kidnapped

Ep 20 Nearly choked out but saved by Gabriel

Ep 21 Sam dies

Ep 22 Not knocked out but I dont remember Sam leading this one.

Ep 23 Kidnapped by Lucifer

 

So much for Super Sam

[Reganne]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, Mary Sues are supposed to have some endearing weaknesses to prove that they're not (really) superhuman.  Apparently Sam's is getting tied up/knocked out.  Not that it ever affects his ability to do the job, or the respect he's given by everyone.  No one ever calls him weak or a bad hunter just because he was briefly knocked out, no matter how many times it happens.   

Mary Sue's are perfect characters.  Perfect characters dont get addicted to demon blood.  Just bc a character gets a compliment, that doesnt make them a Mary Sue.  A Mary Sue wouldnt have sent Maggie out on a run by herself and a Mary sue would have solved the djinn case all by themself including saving Maggie.  I think the term Mary Sue or in this case it would be Gary Stu is starting to be overused.

[ILoveReading]

25 minutes ago, Reganne said:

TBH I dont keep track of the saving thing, bc every character needs help at times and many times it's two of them working together.  Not to mention just as easily as you say Sam saved Dean in episode 23, I would say Dean saved Sam in that very episode.  As far as being knocked out/unconscious this is the track record for Sam the last half of season 13.

Ep 10 knocked out and tied to a tree (as was Dean)

Ep 11 knocked out and tied to table

Ep 12 punched out by Dean and knocked out

Ep 13 Not knocked out

Ep 14 Knocked down by Donatello

Ep 15 Knocked out......found by Dean on floor.  Dean makes comment about him taking hits to the head lately

Ep 16 Not knocked out

Ep 17 Tampered with food.  Goes unconscious and is dragged away

Ep 18 Gets knocked around by demons/asmodeus and does nothing to help himself

Ep 19 Gets knocked out by Rowena and kidnapped

Ep 20 Nearly choked out but saved by Gabriel

Ep 21 Sam dies

Ep 22 Not knocked out but I dont remember Sam leading this one.

Ep 23 Kidnapped by Lucifer

 

So much for Super Sam

So nothing in the first half where Dean had to be saved in almost every single ep.

Neither brother faired well in the Wayward Eps.

Ep 11- Yes, Sam was knocked out and saved but I would love an where we find out Dean's heart was worth 500k.  Under Dabb it probably wouldnt' be worth $5.00

Ep 12- Knocked out by Dean, who was cursed with a spell.  But he came to and went to save Dean.   They both were saved by Rowena but Sam suffered no consequences for giving Rowena the page.  He even got to talk about his hell time, and it wasn't used for comic relief.

ep 14- I'll concede this one mostly because I really remember nothing.   This ep is a complete blank

ep 17- He really didn't need to be saved becasue the people who drugged him weren't really trying to hurt him, just stop  him.

ep 18- He was able to save Gabriel, so not entirely helpless

ep 20- He got to lecture Dean about being put at a kiddie table he promoted himself here. 

ep 21- yes, Sam died

ep 23- Dean would be dead if not for Sam.

So there were times when Sam was knocked out but he needed to be saved far fewer times then Dean and in the majority of the eps where he was he still got something positive.  So yes, I see Super Sam.

Edited November 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Not to mention, Dean still got the opportunity to figure out the djinn case on his own and also kill him all on his own.  Why would someone who wants to show super Sam allow that to happen? Shouldn't he have had Sam do that to showcase just how super he is?

He needed Dean alone with the djinn for the djinn to think he was still Michael and for the audience to be all "WHHHHAT"...not because he wanted Dean to be more capable than Sam.  I'm trying to figure out why everyone around Sam telling him he is doing a good job is not landing with Sam leaning viewers? I mean it's right there in the text. Again it's the tell vs the show.

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Mary Sue's are perfect characters.  Perfect characters dont get addicted to demon blood.  Just bc a character gets a compliment, that doesnt make them a Mary Sue.  A Mary Sue wouldnt have sent Maggie out on a run by herself and a Mary sue would have solved the djinn case all by themself including saving Maggie.  I think the term Mary Sue or in this case it would be Gary Stu is starting to be overused.

Mary Sue's aren't perfect.  They're expected to have faults and flaws (to make them seem less perfect and to get people to empathize/sympathize with them).  The difference is...that their flaws make no difference.  People still love them, forgive them, follow them.  

I'm not saying Sam has always been a Mary Sue, but for the past 3 years or so he certainly seems to be written that way.  

Edited November 23, 2018 by ahrtee

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So nothing in the first half where Dean had to be saved in almost every single ep.

Neither brother faired well in the Wayward Eps.

Ep 11- Yes, Sam was knocked out and saved but I would an ep where we find out Dean's heart was worth 500k.  Under Dabb it probably wouldnt' be worth $5.00

Ep 12- Knocked out by Dean, who was cursed with a spell.  But he came too and went to save Sam.   They both were saved by Rowena but Sam suffered no consequences for giving Rowena the page.  He never got to talk about his hell time, and it wasn't used for comic relief.

ep 14- I'll concede this one mostly because I really remember nothing.   This ep is a complete blank

ep 17- He really didn't need to be saved becasue the people who drugged him weren't really trying to hurt him, just stop  him.

ep 18- He was able to save Gabriel, so not entirely helpless

ep 20- He got to lecture Dean about being put at a kiddie table he promoted himself here. 

ep 21- yes, Sam died

ep 23- Dean would be dead if not for Sam.

So there were times when Sam was knocked out but he needed to be saved far fewer times then Dean and in the majority of the eps where he was he still got somthing postivtive.  So yes, I see Super Sam.

I disagree.  As for ep 23.  Sam would be dead if it weren't for Dean as well.  That's my point with the whole saving people thing.  Lucifer would have killed Sam if Dean had not made a deal with Michael.  Therefore Dean saved Sam as well.  

Also you bring up Patience giving Dean the heads up as her saving him, but Dean saved her and was the one who killed the wraith.  He did more than Patience did who was tied to a chair.  

For the most part, I was talking about Sam getting knocked out, down, unconscious etc.  I usually say in the last half of season 13 bc that is when it happens the most.   That is what I was referring to.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He needed Dean alone with the djinn for the djinn to think he was still Michael and for the audience to be all "WHHHHAT"...not because he wanted Dean to be more capable than Sam.  I'm trying to figure out why everyone around Sam telling him he is doing a good job is not landing with Sam leaning viewers? I mean it's right there in the text. Again it's the tell vs the show.

He could have done that without having Dean solve and do it all.  That really wasnt necessary to showcase Micharl possibly being in Dean.  They could have had another character come in after the relevation if they didnt want Dean to be shown as capable.  It wouldnt have been that hard.  If he were trying to show Dean as weak, there are so many possibilities he could have came up with.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Reganne said:

He could have done that without having Dean solve and do it all.  That really wasnt necessary to showcase Micharl possibly being in Dean.  They could have had another character come in after the relevation if they didnt want Dean to be shown as capable.  It wouldnt have been that hard.  If he were trying to show Dean as weak, there are so many possibilities he could have came up with.

 Dean remembered being captured by the djinn in s2. That's the only reason he solved it. Sam didn't have that memory so he couldn't have solved it.  I never said they showed Dean as weak in that episode. That was never my commentary. I'm talking about where I see Sam still being elevated to Super Sam status by Dabb. I still don't understand dismissing the text about Sam's status. 

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Mary Sue's aren't perfect.  They're expected to have faults and flaws (to make them seem less perfect and to get people to empathize/sympathize with them).  The difference is...that their flaws make no difference.  People still love them, forgive them, follow them.  

I'm not saying Sam has always been a Mary Sue, but for the past 3 years or so he certainly seems to be written that way.  

I agree. Sam was written much better in the earlier seasons IMO. When I watch seasons 1-3 I always think about how I enjoyed him more then.

[ILoveReading]

37 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Mary Sue's are perfect characters.  Perfect characters dont get addicted to demon blood.  Just bc a character gets a compliment, that doesnt make them a Mary Sue.  A Mary Sue wouldnt have sent Maggie out on a run by herself and a Mary sue would have solved the djinn case all by themself including saving Maggie.  I think the term Mary Sue or in this case it would be Gary Stu is starting to be overused.

Mary sues do get multiple excuses as to why their bad actions aren't really their fault.  Ultimately, it was Dean who had to prove his loyalty and trust to Sam, despite Sam being the one to spend the year lying.  Or the sudden need to drink demon blood to house Lucifer, something that hasn't been seen before or since.  It's the prime definition of whitewashing.  They made every other person be on board with it.  they even participated, in the blood letting of four human.  Even though that made no sense.  (really why would Sam want his vessel at full strength?  If Lucifer had to expend more energy to stop it from imploding it easier for Sam to take control. ) Or Sam getting to annouce that it was basically Dean who drove Sam into Ruby' arms. 

Or Red Meat.  Getting shot in the stomach is one of the worst places to get get shot, because of the proximately of the bowel and stomach.  If one of these gets punctured by the bullet, infection can set in quickly because of stomach acid and fecal matter.  Laying bleeding on the floor for hours, Sam should have had a raging infection.  But he basically rose himself from the dead, got up took out a were wolf, feel the down the stairs, got up took out another werewolf, and drove and saved Dean.  It's not a matter of Sam being strong.  Sam's injures should have made it pyhsically impossible to do what he did.  Then he only needed some stiches and antibiotics.  He literally walked off a gun shot wound.  That's not possible where Sam got shot.

Or the premier when Demons ran quaking in terror because Sam raised his voice, not to mention how ridiculous the whole thing of demons asking Sam permission if the first place.  If Sam was supposed to be seen as weak beause he got hit a few times why are demons asking him for permission to rule hell?

As for the Djinn, Sam got full credit.  There is a complement then there is Mary Sue complement, like Sam got in this ep.  Its like it existence was for the sole purpose of telling how how awesome and amazing Sam is at leading.  Even though he made a mistake the narrative clearly said Bobby was the dick for pointing it out and holding Sam accountable.  (another Mary Sue trait).  As for Dean, apparently were weren't supposed to be looking in that direction.  (It reminds me of Luke- these aren't the droids you're looking for).

Edited November 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Mary Sue's aren't perfect.  They're expected to have faults and flaws (to make them seem less perfect).  The difference is...that their flaws make no difference.  People still love them, forgive them, follow them.  

I'm not saying Sam has always been a Mary Sue, but for the past 3 years or so he certainly seems to be written that way.  

More characters seem to gravitate towards Dean though.  Cas still loves him through all his faults.  Crowley followed and preferred him etc.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Dean remembered being captured by the djinn in s2. That's the only reason he solved it. Sam didn't have that memory so he couldn't have solved it.  I never said they showed Dean as weak in that episode. That was never my commentary. I'm talking about where I see Sam still being elevated to Super Sam status by Dabb. I still don't understand dismissing the text about Sam's status. 

Because I dont see it that way.  There are so many ways someone could make him super Sam and they're not.  He still needs help etc.

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. Sam was written much better in the earlier seasons IMO. When I watch seasons 1-3 I always think about how I enjoyed him more then.

I didn't like Sam at all in s1. I thought he was whiny and petulant, yet I thought he had more meat in the character.  IMO, Sam was a better written character and Jared played that on the page. I thought s10 Sam was as close to early Sam with nuance etc.  I feel like in the past couple of seasons Sam is basically a living trope and Jared plays it that way.  

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Because I dont see it that way.  There are so many ways someone could make him super Sam and they're not.  He still needs help etc.

I'm genuinely curious here.  When a character of merit, Mary and Dean defend Sam to AU Bobby's criticism, and then AU Bobby retracts and apologizes for his criticism, what do you think is the takeaway there for the character of Sam?

[Reganne]

IMO Sam's mistakes have consequences.  Dean's quite often dont.  And for Sam the consequences are usually grave.  Quite often, Dean's mistakes are overlooked as the narrative focuses on Sam's.  Take the apacalypse with the release of Lucifer.  This was all blamed on Sam.  Dean's breaking of the first seal forgotten.  Sam releasing the darkness.  Dean should have had more consequences to taking the MOC.  As it is, the narrative switches to make Sam the culprit of the bigger consequences of the MOC.  Dean becomes a demon bc of the MOC, but really he doesnt do much damage.  Instead the narrative makes Sam out to be worse than Dean.  It's crazy how little consequences Dean actually faces in comparison to Sam.  But yet Sam is a Gary Stu? Doesnt make a lot of sense.

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I

I'm genuinely curious here.  When a character of merit, Mary and Dean defend Sam to AU Bobby's criticism, and then AU Bobby retracts and apologizes for his criticism, what do you think is the takeaway there for the character of Sam?

What would be the point of having them all rip into Sam at that point?  That's what I dont understand.  I dont take what other characters say as seriously as some others.  I look more into what is shown onscreen than what characters say.

 

And what do you think of both Sam and Jack saying that Michael's actions arent Dean's fault?  

Edited November 23, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

What would be the point of having them all drop into Sam at that point?  That's what I dont understand.  

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

 

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

And what do you think of both Sam and Jack saying that Michael's actions arent Dean's fault?  

That it was fair and far too late in the narrative but at least Sam and Jack realized that Dean shouldn't be blamed for doing what he could to save Sam, Jack and the world(which the show is conveniently ignoring) from a superpowered Lucifer. I don't know what that has to do with whether Sam is being elevated to Super Sam though.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

This was all blamed on Sam.

I don't agree that it was all blamed on Sam. It was noted multiple times that Dean broke the first seal and without that event nothing else would have happened. That said, Kripke et al, decided that only Sam was going into the pit thus it would look much better for Sam's redemption there if they made it all his fault, forgetting that both the show and tell from s4 and up to Fallen Idols held both responsible.

That's not absolving Dean, that's changing the story midway to make Sam the only one to do the heroic sacrificial act.  Yes, I know that the show tried to sell the idea that Dean's presence is what got through to Sam. I often only half jokingly think all it would have taken is for the Impala to drive herself to the cemetery and park in the right spot for Samifer to see that army man.

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, Reganne said:

More characters seem to gravitate towards Dean though.  Cas still loves him through all his faults.  Crowley followed and preferred him etc.

That has nothing to do with my opinions about Sam.  We're not talking about Dean here.  

17 minutes ago, Reganne said:

IMO Sam's mistakes have consequences.  Dean's quite often dont.  And for Sam the consequences are usually grave.  Quite often, Dean's mistakes are overlooked as the narrative focuses on Sam's.  Take the apacalypse with the release of Lucifer.  This was all blamed on Sam.  Dean's breaking of the first seal forgotten.  Sam releasing the darkness.  Dean should have had more consequences to taking the MOC.  As it is, the narrative switches to make Sam the culprit of the bigger consequences of the MOC.  Dean becomes a demon bc of the MOC, but really he doesnt do much damage.  Instead the narrative makes Sam out to be worse than Dean.  It's crazy how little consequences Dean actually faces in comparison to Sam.  But yet Sam is a Gary Stu? Doesnt make a lot of sense.

I've heard this many times, from many people.  And I've seen many people also disagreeing and saying the complete opposite.  Everything has already been said multiple times, and I don't feel like adding my opinions (again) when I know no one ever gets anyone to see the other side.  

But that's not what my point was about.  I was discussing the way *I felt* the writers have been turning Sam into a Mary Sue for the past few seasons.  I'm not discussing or comparing Dean here.  And I quote from the TV Tropes discussion of turning characters into Mary Sues:

One of the biggest signs of a Mary Sue is the author having a particularly strong interest in the character at the expense of all others. Some signs that this is happening:

·         The character appears in nearly all of the author's works, whether literally the same character or the same character in spirit. This can be done properly, but it must be handled carefully (e.g. a Legacy Character or a series that allows for different iterations of the same character); without that, it looks like an obsession.

·         The author uses the character to promote his or her own opinions, often by pitting her against a Straw Character who will never be right no matter what he does.

·         The author takes personal offense at any criticism of the character or story, no matter how well-meaning or justified it is. Bonus points for displaying an overblown ego in the process.

The author tries to dictate how others use or interpret the character, or she gets upset when someone pairs up her favorite canon character with anyone other than Mary Sue.

Basically, all the recent storylines and even the standalones have both shown and told that Sam is strong, brave, a better leader than anyone.  Yes, he has faults, to build sympathy and have others reassure him; so,  his faults include  being insecure about his own awesomeness.  Making mistakes, so others can support him by telling him he's still learning and everyone makes mistakes (including getting knocked out or tied up).  Having this horrible PTSD about Lucifer, except that he's strong enough not to let it interfere with his work (either working with Lucifer in season 11 or Nick now).  He's overcome his horrible past experiences and certain Mean People keep reminding him of it (but never actually do anything, like ostracize or openly blame him or even not listening to his current advice even though his past actions have been...questionable.)  So...?

[Reganne]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

 

That it was fair and far too late in the narrative but at least Sam and Jack realized that Dean shouldn't be blamed for doing what he could to save Sam, Jack and the world(which the show is conveniently ignoring) from a superpowered Lucifer. I don't know what that has to do with whether Sam is being elevated to Super Sam though.

People are saying that Dean and Mary gave Sam support.  TBH that happens even when people make mistakes in real life.  That's why I was asking what would be the point in them ripping into him.  As far as AU Bobby.  He was mad at Sam

  He only came to once Maggie was safe.  Yes he had other things going on, but he was angry with Sam until Maggie was safe and at that point what would be the point in laying it into Sam?

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That has nothing to do with my opinions about Sam.  We're not talking about Dean here.  

I've heard this many times, from many people.  And I've seen many people also disagreeing and saying the complete opposite.  Everything has already been said multiple times, and I don't feel like adding my opinions (again) when I know no one ever gets anyone to see the other side.  

But that's not what my point was about.  I was discussing the way *I felt* the writers have been turning Sam into a Mary Sue for the past few seasons.  I'm not discussing or comparing Dean here.  And I quote from the TV Tropes discussion of turning characters into Mary Sues:

One of the biggest signs of a Mary Sue is the author having a particularly strong interest in the character at the expense of all others. Some signs that this is happening:

·         The character appears in nearly all of the author's works, whether literally the same character or the same character in spirit. This can be done properly, but it must be handled carefully (e.g. a Legacy Character or a series that allows for different iterations of the same character); without that, it looks like an obsession.

·         The author uses the character to promote his or her own opinions, often by pitting her against a Straw Character who will never be right no matter what he does.

·         The author takes personal offense at any criticism of the character or story, no matter how well-meaning or justified it is. Bonus points for displaying an overblown ego in the process.

The author tries to dictate how others use or interpret the character, or she gets upset when someone pairs up her favorite canon character with anyone other than Mary Sue.

Basically, all the recent storylines and even the standalones have both shown and told that Sam is strong, brave, a better leader than anyone.  Yes, he has faults, to build sympathy and have others reassure him; so,  his faults include  being insecure about his own awesomeness.  Making mistakes, so others can support him by telling him he's still learning and everyone makes mistakes (including getting knocked out or tied up).  Having this horrible PTSD about Lucifer, except that he's strong enough not to let it interfere with his work (either working with Lucifer in season 11 or Nick now).  He's overcome his horrible past experiences and certain Mean People keep reminding him of it (but never actually do anything, like ostracize or openly blame him or even not listening to his current advice even though his past actions have been...questionable.)  So...?

Dean get compared bc this is the bitch vs jerk thread.  The reason why he gets brought into these conversations is bc I dont understand how the Gary Stu would apply to Sam and not Dean.  People claim that Sam's mistakes are forgiven.  So are Dean's.  There are complaints of characters following or still loving Sam.  They still do with Dean as well.  In fact characters gravitate to Dean more than Sam so I dont get how characters liking Sam makes him a Gary stu.

I dont see the writers having this interest in Sam more than other characters TBH.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

People are saying that Dean and Mary gave Sam support.  TBH that happens even when people make mistakes in real life.  That's why I was asking what would be the point in them ripping into him.  As far as AU Bobby.  He was mad at Sam

  He only came to once Maggie was safe.  Yes he had other things going on, but he was angry with Sam until Maggie was safe and at that point what would be the point in laying it into Sam?

.  No one had to rip into him and that's not at all what I was suggesting. But it was the opposite of that with AU Bobby. He essentially retracted his criticism.  I'm asking what is your takeaway for what that means for Sam's characterization.

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

.  No one had to rip into him and that's not at all what I was suggesting. But it was the opposite of that with AU Bobby. He essentially retracted his criticism.  I'm asking what is your takeaway for what that means for Sam's characterization.

My takeaway is that Sam still blames himself.  He said that AU Bobby was right when he criticized Sam in the first place.  Sometimes that happens in real life.  People get heated over things and whether they are right or wrong about it, they apologize after.  I'm not really getting what you're aiming for as this takeaway.  I dont take what other characters say as gospel truth.  They arent always right.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean get compared bc this is the bitch vs jerk thread.  The reason why he gets brought into these conversations is bc I dont understand how the Gary Stu would apply to Sam and not Dean.  People claim that Sam's mistakes are forgiven.  So are Dean's.  There are complaints of characters following or still loving Sam.  They still do with Dean as well.  In fact characters gravitate to Dean more than Sam so I dont get how characters liking Sam makes him a Gary stu.

I mean even with your comment about Lucifer and PTSD and still getting stuff done.... the same can be said about Dean.  In season 4 and season 13.  

Not everything has to be a "yes, but..."  Sometimes we can discuss just one character without bringing up the other's faults or mistakes.  It's a given that both have faults and have made mistakes.  Which ones are worse and which have been ignored or whitewashed depend on individual POV and preferences.  There is no one "right" answer.    

And IA that a lot of the Gary Stu descriptions could apply to Dean as well.  But not these past few seasons, which is *all* that I'm discussing here.  (And remember that Dean didn't face Lucifer in his Hell--he had Alistair instead, and was pretty freaked at having to face him.)

But you have your takeaways and I have mine, and (apparently) never the twain shall meet.  We can just agree to disagree.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I feel like in the past couple of seasons Sam is basically a living trope and Jared plays it that way.  

Never is this so blatant as in his reactions to being called sir, and Chief. He makes mouth noises about asking them to stop, but every bit of his body language says he loves it. It is all done without a hint of irony. Same with the delivery of the absurd King of Hell wannabe scene in the premiere and the 'you'll have to go through me' speech. Good grief.

[devlin]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Never is this so blatant as in his reactions to being called sir, and Chief. He makes mouth noises about asking them to stop, but every bit of his body language says he loves it. It is all done without a hint of irony. Same with the delivery of the absurd King of Hell wannabe scene in the premiere and the 'you'll have to go through me' speech. Good grief.

What frustrates me about this, is he plays a BAMF when yelling at scary demons or being this awesome leader, yet in the past few seasons when it comes to dealing with dean he all of a sudden becomes a cowering wet ball of fluff. Is he trying to give the impression that dean is a bully who is abusive coz that certainly fits in with dabb’s view of dean. He never acted this way before.

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, Reganne said:

My takeaway is that Sam still blames himself.  He said that AU Bobby was right when he criticized Sam in the first place.  Sometimes that happens in real life.  People get heated over things and whether they are right or wrong about it, they apologize after.  I'm not really getting what you're aiming for as this takeaway.  I dont take what other characters say as gospel truth.  They arent always right.

I'm not aiming for anything. I'm interested in what people think about characters in and of themselves. Not necessarily just in comparison to another character.  That's all.  Thanks for replying.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But that was because of the choices he made with tricking Sam into saying yes to Gadreel resulting in Kevin's death.  He wanted to do something to try and take Abaddon off the board because it was all he could do since he couldn't find Gadreel.  He didn't take on the Mark because of something someone else did.  He did it because he felt guilty and that he was poison. 

Heh. I do see what you are saying, but I can't imagine that if Sam had made a deal for Dean and Dean knew he was in hell being tortured because of it that he wouldn't feel incredible guilt because of that... this is Dean we're talking about. He feels guilt about almost everything. I can entirely see him feeling guilty for not being able to save Sam from going to hell and so being talked into taking on something dark in order to "make things right" and/or not feel guilty about what was happening to Sam. Dean might even have felt that he should have been the one to go to hell and started engaging in destructive behavior as a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing.

As I said, I understand how Sam ended up where he did in season 4. He felt guilty, he felt powerless, and he felt useless, and he likely had some anger towards Dean for causing the situation that made him feel that way... and then feeling guilty for that too, since how could he be mad at Dean when Dean was suffering for him... and around and around it went until Sam was suicidal. Then even Dean being back didn't work as a fix for long, because once Sam knew that Dean did remember hell, Dean was now a constant reminder of how Sam had failed to save him, and nothing Sam could do would help... he was useless all over again and powerless to help his brother... and it had all happened in order to save him when he didn't even feel he was worth it. So then anger would creep back into it. That's why, in my opinion, Dean being back didn't help Sam much... not after Sam knew about Dean remembering. It was at that point - Sam finding out - that things started falling apart big time for Sam.

And I could  imagine Dean going through very similar emotions and ending up on a similar path as Sam did if their roles had been reversed.

Edited November 23, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

If the leadership episode was about Dean, AU!Bobby would have ripped into him and noone would have stood up for Dean. Mary would have agreed with AU!Bobby. At the end of the episode, Dean would have apologized to everyone about being a bad leader and would have learned a valuable lesson about how much he sucks.

The only reason why the episode played out the opposite way is because it was Sam. 

And actually, in a normal show with a normal character, it would have played out in yet a third way: that character would have been called out on their leadership mistakes, have gotten some support but no "You are born to do this" ass-kissing either. At the end the criticism would not be retracted and the character would be humbled a bit (without being torn down) and learn from their mistakes.

What SPN does with Sam is the pimping and what they do with Dean is bashing. Neither one is any kind of good writing. Bashing just is worse for a character.

[tessathereaper]

On 11/22/2018 at 2:00 PM, ahrtee said:

From Eric Kripke's IMDb page (personal quotes):

I like to tell stories that have beginnings, middles and ends.

 

I'm not a fan of endless mystery in storytelling - I like to know where the mythology's going; I like to get there in an exciting, fast-paced way - enough that there's a really clear, aggressive direction to where it's going, to pay off mystery and reward the audiences loyalty.

 

People pitch me the crazy mystery mind-blowing thing all the time. My response is, 'Great, but how do the characters feel about it, and how do we reveal new facets and new dimensions of who they are?'

 

*sigh*  I miss storytelling.  And characters.  And "rewarding the audience's loyalty."  Or even acknowledging it.

I had my criticisms of Kripke at the time but I always had a ton of affection for him too, he felt like one of us somehow, even if he was the show's creator.

I've never felt that for any of the other showrunners, they all come across as full of themselves and unappreciative of what came before and created the job they are moving into.

[devlin]

I don't get it. The writers go to the trouble of telling us that Dean remembers his possession as basically drowning and having to fight for every breath and then they proceed to ignore it. I might be the only one but if I had suffered through that for weeks on end, I think I would be a little traumatised! That's the sort of thing that nightmares are made of. But instead we get Dean falling over himself to ensure that sam is doing ok and if that wasn't enough we now have Dean on his knees stressing over horrible man baby who has a little cough. The show has spent more time on nick's trauma(who has been killed multiple times and who shouldn't even be alive) than dean's. A big deal before this season was that Jensen gets to play another character. All that amounted to was 12 minutes of Michael!dean. We are told that sam has become this awesome leader, but then we are shown him making some seriously stupid mistakes which then no one bothers to  address. Learning from mistakes is how someone becomes great at what they do, its a journey, it makes for good story telling. . The destruction of mary. A character who never wanted to hunt and actually said that her worst nightmare was her children being brought up to hunt. We now learn that  she was disappearing off on hunts and leaving John and Dean, who was not even 1yrs old, and neglecting to inform John where she was going and what was out there. Having been back 1 year, most of which was not spent with her sons,  she now claims to know sam and that he was born to hunt, something he has never embraced. It is frustrating and I will forever be annoyed by Jensen coz its his talent that keeps me coming back for more.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, devlin said:

I don't get it. The writers go to the trouble of telling us that Dean remembers his possession as basically drowning and having to fight for every breath and then they proceed to ignore it. I might be the only one but if I had suffered through that for weeks on end, I think I would be a little traumatised! That's the sort of thing that nightmares are made of. But instead we get Dean falling over himself to ensure that sam is doing ok and if that wasn't enough we now have Dean on his knees stressing over horrible man baby who has a little cough. The show has spent more time on nick's trauma(who has been killed multiple times and who shouldn't even be alive) than dean's. A big deal before this season was that Jensen gets to play another character. All that amounted to was 12 minutes of Michael!dean. We are told that sam has become this awesome leader, but then we are shown him making some seriously stupid mistakes which then no one bothers to  address. Learning from mistakes is how someone becomes great at what they do, its a journey, it makes for good story telling. . The destruction of mary. A character who never wanted to hunt and actually said that her worst nightmare was her children being brought up to hunt. We now learn that  she was disappearing off on hunts and leaving John and Dean, who was not even 1yrs old, and neglecting to inform John where she was going and what was out there. Having been back 1 year, most of which was not spent with her sons,  she now claims to know sam and that he was born to hunt, something he has never embraced. It is frustrating and I will forever be annoyed by Jensen coz its his talent that keeps me coming back for more.

Dean's been way too zen.  If we had better writers I'd wonder if Dean was getting ready to explode (literally and figuratively) but we have writers who have no imagination and don't care a thing about Dean and  Jensen did say at a con that Dean was "repressing" his trauma, which is code for "non-existent in a script" 

It seems to me its all about Dabb's determination to turn Sam into Dean.   Sam's now the guy who wants to hunt while Dean wants out.  There was no build up or natural progression, Dabb just decided one day, thats how it will be.

Nothing is ever going to convince me that the only reason Michael was allowed to see the light of day was because Dabb saw it as a perfect opportunity to trash Dean's character.  Getting him off screen he can label Sam as the supreme leader of the universe, label Dean as weak because he couldnt' fight Michael off and not show us Dean at all in in one ep so that now Sam is the only character to appear in every ep.

It was Dabb's wet dream on a plate.  We know know that everything he said at comic con was a lie.

Edited November 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

Pretty good article about "20 Things About Lucifer That Make No Sense."  https://screenrant.com/supernatural-lucifer-biggest-plot-holes-make-no-sense/ Not that we don't already know them all, but it's nice to see someone laying them out clearly where (maybe?) TPTB will see them.  My dream vision:  BuckLemming reading it, scratching their heads and saying, "hmmm...maybe the viewers aren't as stupid as we think they are."  Or maybe thinking that the stupid fans will see the article and the light bulb will suddenly go on.  *sigh*  I'm pretty sure Dabb won't know/won't care.  

[ILoveReading]

Watching this season it seems like there is a three way battle for control of the writers room.

Dabb wants to tell Jack's story (with a side of Sam's leader arc)

Berens- wants to tell the story of the Wayward Sues

Buck/Lemming are all about Lucifer/Nick.

The others writers feel like they're trying to please BRL and Dabb.   The storyline that seems to be left handing in out to dry is the MichaelDean story.

As much as I don't like saying it because I've been looking forward to it for so long, its such a bust.

I can't take Michael seriously as someone to be sacred of because Berens had to dumb him down so much to pimp Teenage Mutant Ninja Sue.  It's been months and Michael's "traps" have caught exactly one and 1/2 hunters. (Maggie being the half.  She fell into it but escaped.)

His monsters aren't all that hard to take out.

He's barely been on screen and I have no idea what he'd doing and I find it hard to care for the above reasons.   There is zero development on the Michael front. 

Dean's vision problems don't make me excited for this storyline or fill mme with confidence because it seems like Michael is listening in and my only reaction is....so?  I have a feeling its not going to come to much.  Dean will feel guilty for half an ep, it will be ignored or someone will make a half hearted remark that its not his fault.  Then there will be another anti-climatic scene where Michael is dispatched.  Probably great and power all supreme leader chief talking Kaia Sue into helping them and her taking out Michael without a hair out of place, while Dean looks on from the sidelines. 

I get not revealing everything all at once.  It's true the show didn't reveal Sam was drinking demon blood until late in the season but right from the pilot we knew something was up.   It built up and was alluded to in multiple episodes and we saw Sam reacting.  Imagine if we see Sam sneaking out to go see Ruby and then its not mentioned again until Sam sneaks out again after the Magician ep.   Then we get the reveal.  As much as I didn't like the trial storyline, at least its clear the writers had a plan for it.  We saw Sam get worse. 

The Mark of Cain story, I'll give the writers credit until The Executioner's Song.  After that it seemed like Dean was dropped from his own story.  We get lines like Dean snapped, but then we see him playing miniature golf.  Nick's storyline this season was kind of what I was hoping for.  Not that extreme but a real exploration of Dean's dark side.  The mythology kept changing, its clear no writer actually sat down and talked about it was or exactly what it meant. 

It's the same with the Michael storyline.  It feels like Deans' been dropped.  He's just standing around waiting for orders from Chief.   Michael might be listening but like I said earlier who cares because we're not actually seeing Deans' POV.  He's just way to laid back and unconcerned.   There are ways to show that Dean is being messed with.  Instead of another, Jack is the special snowflake pep talk, open an ep with Dean driving down the road and him coming too wondering where he is, or what he just did, or have things in the bunker go missing.  Have Sam call Mary to tell her about Jack and have him say something like "what do you mean, Dean was just there last week, show he wasn't there and Sam Smith isn't needed for the ep.  Have an AU hunter just disappear.  Create mystery and doubt and worry for.  All very simple. 

Mostly have Dean getting upset that something isn't' right.  If he doesn't want to tell Sam, then give us a scene like the one Sam had, where we see Dean in bed and he clearly hasn't slept all night.  Let us worry alongside him. 

Spoiler

Festering and "not every episode" just tell me that nothing is actually being done and the writers don't actually see this as a priority until the last five minutes of a finale.  I'm guessing season, because all indication that the fall finale are about Teenage Mutant Ninja sue, plus a Sam, Michael confrontation. 

I think the writers aren't talking because they have no clue what they're doing with it.  It's obvious and it shows. 

I don't blame Jensen for this.  He's doing the best he can.   He can spin straw into gold, but he can't make the straw.  He has none to work with other than about 10minutes that concentrated on Michael.   In ep 2, he actually planted the seeds of a compelling big bad for the first time in awhile but it was all undone thanks to Berens obsession with this Mary Sues. 

I'll be pleasantly surprised if this all turns around, but so far this whole season has been one huge bust and is shaping up to be the worst season yet.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It's the same with the Michael storyline.  It feels like Deans' been dropped.  He's just standing around waiting for orders from Chief.   Michael might be listening but like I said earlier who cares because we're not actually seeing Deans' POV.  He's just way to laid back and unconcerned.   There are ways to show that Dean is being messed with.  Instead of another, Jack is the special snowflake pep talk, open an ep with Dean driving down the road and him coming too wondering where he is, or what he just did, or have things in the bunker go missing.  Have Sam call Mary to tell her about Jack and have him say something like "what do you mean, Dean was just there last week, show he wasn't there and Sam Smith isn't needed for the ep.  Have an AU hunter just disappear.  Create mystery and doubt and worry for.  All very simple. 

Warning: I know this annoys some people, but I'm going to bring Sam in here at some point. His storylines are the ones I know best, so they are the best examples I can give of what I'm trying to get across. If you (the general "you") can handle that, then okay. Otherwise I apologize in advance, and please feel free to skip my post.

Okay, here I go: For me I'm of two minds about this, and I think I touched on this a little earlier. I agree that it would be nice to know what's going on and have a few more clues... BUT - and for me this is a big "but" - only if they know what they are planning to do and are going to follow through. Now the Sam example (sorry). I promise I'm going to get to a very relevant point though, so...

The biggest disappointment for me concerning season 9 and why I dislike it so much was all of the set up for a Sam arc that went exactly nowhere and in the end was even entirely turned on its head and retconned. In the first half of the season the writers gave us all of this set up on how Sam was being affected by Gadreel and the toll it took on him to have Gadreel affecting him, wiping his memories, and him thinking he was going crazy, so that was good. Sam also had if not a story related to the mytharc, at least a POV and emotional arc... However, for me, something happened along the way. Maybe the writers didn't like that some fans were complaining about Dean being shown as "the bad guy" (even though I didn't think he was, myself.) Maybe they were afraid to take it too far (avoiding the season 4 Sam thing which required a similar course change - see below). Whatever it was, things completely shifted in the middle of the season from what I could see. The Dean lying to Sam part of the equation was dropped. They focused on Sam being "ready to die" (which wasn't really true or was at best murky) and how Sam was angry because of Dean helping a malevolent entity possess him. If there were supposedly "hard truths" in "The Purge" (I'm not entirely convinced, but for sake of argument, I'll go with it.), these were retconned later. Actually almost immediately afterwards this started.

The very next episode ("Captives") significantly softened the blow of Kevin's death - one of Sam's biggest arguments as to why the Gadreel possession was so awful for him - and almost made it a good thing. By "Mother's Little Helper" Sam was seeing how Dean was "right." And worst of all, in my opinion, was "King of the Damned" which pretty much retconned the nature of the Gadreel possession. Looking closely at the conversation between Sam and Castiel in that episode, I can see where what we saw in the first half of the season was being twisted into something else. In that conversation, Sam not only seems to say that maybe he had felt Gadreel's presence (bull crap, in my opinion, based on what we saw in the first half of the season), but that he hadn't felt that that presence was evil or dangerous, but that he (Sam) had been wrong, obviously, because Gadreel killed Kevin..... thereby shifting some of the blame of Kevin's death onto Sam - which in my opinion is opposite of what we saw in the first half of the season - because he didn't realize the entity in his head wasn't benign until it was too late. And I don't think I'm exaggerating this. Here's the dialogue:

Quote

Castiel: Sam. You have a moment?
Sam: Yeah. What?
Castiel: I wanted to ask you about Gadreel, the time he possessed you.
Sam: It's not really something I like to --
Castiel: Sam, please.
Sam: He didn't possess me completely -- more like we, uh... shared housing. I was still me.
Castiel: Did you ever sense a presence?
Sam: I don't really know what I felt. I mean, maybe that I wasn't completely alone.
Castiel: Did you ever feel threatened?
Sam: No. More that he... wasn't at rest, l-like he had unfinished business. Now that we know more about him, I-I'd say he felt misunderstood.
Castiel: But not -- not a danger, not hostile.
Sam: No. I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin.

Why should Sam even be saying that he was wrong concerning Kevin's death? Sam had nothing to do with it, in my opinion, but here we have the dialogue not only somewhat excusing Gadreel in that he had "unfinished business" and was "misunderstood" - which would be expanded on later - but having Sam say that he had been wrong and inferring that an error in his judgement contributed to Kevin's death. And the conversation was cut right there, leaving that statement to stand uncontested.

So what I'm trying to say with all of this is that what I saw in the beginning of the season - a set up where we might explore how the Gadreel possession affected Sam and really get into the ramifications of that due to Dean's subterfuge... with Sam's feelings being acknowledged, and while he ultimately would forgive Dean, Dean would at least understand and acknowledge the toll it had taken on Sam - was summarily turned on its head in the second half. Not only was the possession retconned to maybe not really that bad, but Sam might have been somewhat aware of it and maybe didn't take action fast enough to stop Kevin from being killed. (Which again was retconned into not being that big a deal anyway, just to make sure we understood Sam being possessed wasn't so bad after all. And in case that didn't work, Gadreel was redeemed anyway, helped save the world, and was declared a "friend.")

And my point is that I would rather not have had all of that set up with Sam at all if I'd known where it was all going to go. The set up made it more disappointing and looking like Sam was set up as the bad guy - or at least a heavy dose of victim-shaming - from the beginning. If the season 8 Sam was being "mature" thing really was something they intended to do and changed their mind midstream, then that would be another example of a set up I would rather have not had at all if the writers weren't going to commit to the storyline.

A Dean example would be season 5. Would what some fans see as Dean getting cut out of the story in the finale have been as disappointing if there hadn't been all of that set up to begin with? Maybe for some, but I think for others it was worse because of all of the set up of the Righteous Man that garnered so many expectations. And if writers had considered the ramifications of taking Sam so dark beforehand and not decided to remedy that with a change of direction, then things also might not have been as disappointing.

So, this season, if the writers don't know how dark they want things to get and want to feel the waters before deciding what they want to do and where they want to take it... then I'd rather that, then them starting out in one direction and then completely changing their mind, because in changing their mind, someone's character usually gets thrown under the bus or short-changed to accommodate their change of direction.

So basically I'm saying that maybe the writers aren't giving details or more clues now not because they aren't interested or don't want to focus on the Michael storyline, but because they aren't sure how the storyline will be received and are too wary to commit one way or another. And if they want to change their mind, they don't want to have to retcon the storyline afterwards. This way, if they leave everything vague, they can have it go whichever way they decide that they want without having to worry about contradicting previous set up.

And sure it somewhat sucks for me as a viewer, but at least I'm not waiting for a setup payoff that's just going to get retconned... and usually ends up screwing over a character I like. Maybe sometimes low expectations are better than big expectations that are going to be crushed later. I don't know. *shrug*

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So basically I'm saying that maybe the writers aren't giving details or more clues now not because they aren't interested or don't want to focus on the Michael storyline,

But it`s too late for that. If they didn`t know where they wanted to go, they shouldn`t have committed to Dean being possessed in the Season Finale. THAT raised expectations for at least something to come from it. And then it was a few scenes in two measly episodes, not even the focus of one episode. The writers can`t start a storyline and then change their mind five minutes later. So what you say would be bad to happen, a total course correction IMO already happened via the Season Opener. Which made it clear that Michael wasn`t a priority to tell for anyone. 

The character I like (and his actor) already has been screwed up. This was the first time in 13/14 years that Jensen could play possessed and they never even gave him the opportunity of one single focus episode to establish the character, let alone help with the direction, not even when he asked. This is worse than Demon!Dean. The disappointment has already materialized. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If they didn`t know where they wanted to go, they shouldn`t have committed to Dean being possessed in the Season Finale. THAT raised expectations for at least something to come from it.

I'm not going to disagree with you on that first part, though I still think something is going to come from it eventually... I just don't think the writers are even sure what that is yet. Maybe after seeing what the fans are saying about this first part of the season, they might gather data and decide where they want to go.

It's not like they haven't done that before, I don't think... and I point to season 8 again as an example. That season was so disjointed between the two parts in content and tone that they almost seemed like two different seasons even. I doubt that that was the original plan to start with.

As for Michael having happened in the first place, maybe it would have been even worse if they had worked up to it more? This did seem more to sort of happen all at once at the end of last season. I get that for some that that might not be a comfort, but for me personally, I was more ticked off when the story seemed to be setting up for one direction - like in season 9 - and then it not only didn't go that way, but the damage control threw Sam under the bus and maligned his character. To that, I say, well if the writers didn't want Dean to look sketchy for helping an angel take over Sam and then lying to him about it for months... then don't do that in the first place. And then they wouldn't have had to try to mitigate that by making said angel "misunderstood" and making Sam look like a jerk and as if he was partially to blame for his own continued possession.

At least the narrative here is making it clear that no one blames Dean for what he did - except maybe Dean, but that's to be expected - and that Dean did what he had to do... It could always be worse. So far an apocalypse hasn't happened... And maybe that's part of it. Maybe the writers want to distance Dean saying "yes" from whatever Michael does next, and if they can somehow work someone else in there - an accomplice that will make everything worse, for example - then the farther they can remove Dean from any bad stuff that happens. Based on history on this show, that seems to be something the writers do more often than not, in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is worse than Demon!Dean.

And I still say that that truncated storyline was a product of the same thing as above. Sure Demon Dean was a cool story in theory, but now here we had a twisted Dean. A demon sure, but still the soul was a twisted version of Dean. Did the writers really want to go super dark with that? And the answer, in my opinion was: no, they didn't (the Angelus problem from Angel). That's why we got the Sam doing "worse things than a demon" arc and an arc that ended before demon Dean did anything really bad. Because theoretically Demon Dean shouldn't have been conflicted at all. He was a demon. He should be doing waaay worse stuff than we saw him doing without giving it a second thought. The mark of Cain in Dean story of season 10 was a compromise. We could have Dean being influenced by the dark power of the mark, but we had Dean's conscience fighting that... so there was an excuse for Dean not doing horrific things whereas with demon Dean there was no such excuse, so it would have been silly in my opinion to have him continue without doing awful things, especially with the influence of the mark of Cain exacerbating the situation and especially after Crowley had challenged / questioned him.

Edited December 5, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

As a Dean girl I have to say that while I'm disappointed at how the Dean/Michael plot has played out so far I'm not surprised after being largely disappointed with seasons 12 & 13 under Dabb and the current writing team. Sam has gotten slightly better writing and more interest from TPTB IMO but that's been lackluster as well. Overall I feel that their interest is primarily in the characters that are the writers pet projects ( Lucifer, Jack, Mary ) and the characters that they are eager to flesh out ( various WS players, AU characters ) while using the Winchesters and Castiel as bait in order to keep the built in audience watching while they indulge their newer viewers. They know that while we bitch and moan we aren't going anywhere while Sam, Dean and Cas are still around. It makes me sad and frustrated because I had high hopes for Dean this season but I'm committed to stick around as long as Jensen is still on my screen. *sobbing*

[devlin]

do these writers actually have a plan for  our two leads this season? They promised Michael!dean which we got for a hot second before he inexplicably disappeared. Any after effects of being possessed have been completely ignored. The bestest leader eva was dropped after a handful of episodes and even all of that was just lip service. For some reason they are focusing on nick and creating a soap featuring jack. They are ignoring canon. Where has my show gone which featured a BAMF and his brother fighting monsters. JA left a soap 20 years ago coz he was too good of an actor to be wasted on that type of show but now he finds himself in one again 

[ILoveReading]

I see the writer are continuing their quest to turn Sam into Dean.  With Sam being the one to want to make a deal and taking off, and Dean trying to stop him.

Plus, the scene of Sam trying to cut the branches was a direct repeat of Dean trying to do the same the same thing in the episode that shall not be named.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I see the writer are continuing their quest to turn Sam into Dean.  With Sam being the one to want to make a deal and taking off, and Dean trying to stop him.

Plus, the scene of Sam trying to cut the branches was a direct repeat of Dean trying to do the same the same thing in the episode that shall not be named.

I legit thought the exact same thing.  Of course, and this is just opinion, it worked in that episode because IMO, Jensen played it with just the right amount of panic, and frustration with the tree, giving it just the lightest touch and it was heartbreaking yet slightly comical without being comedy. I felt like Jared played it just too straight and too much angst.