“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I am finding fault with is that Sam, instead of just sticking to the issue of the Gadreel trickery and the ongoing lying, Sam tossed Dean's life under the bus.

Oh I definitely agree with this... but I blame the writers for it. Sam did complain about the lying first thing in "Road Trip," but somehow that got twisted in "The Purge." My thought is that it was to set up the "I lied" later when Sam did the same damn thing he said he wouldn't do. Focusing on the lying and Gadreel didn't fit that narrative, so it was left out.

It's like when it's pointed out that Dean doesn't get to argue back for himself sometimes... it's because that wouldn't fit the writer narrative.

Quote

The problem for me is after that. And in the narrative, Sam is hailed as the more emotionally and mentally healthy brother,(I was never convinced) but in touch with his feelings and emotionally mature. I think Sam was trying to punish Dean and that caused Dean to withdraw further until he just decided he had enough of Sam's stuff and decided to hunt alone which Sam didn't like. IMO, no matter what Dean did, Sam was going to IMO make him pay, instead of leaving or asking Dean to leave.

I disagree with this though. I just don't see Sam being hailed as the emotionally mature one. At all... especially since he's generally the one proven wrong about his feelings. Even in this case, Sam was obviously not in touch with his "Well I wouldn't (do the same thing)" and that isn't what the show showed us either. It showed us Dean knowing the score and Sam being either clueless or a hypocrite and liar.

As for making Dean pay... Sam didn't keep Dean captive. Dean's an adult. If he wanted to leave, he could have. But if Dean wanted to stick it out and try to prove himself to Sam again - much like Sam did in season 5 - then that was Dean's choice. And it didn't take Sam long - basically 6 episodes after "Road Trip" - before Dean was pretty much forgiven and Sam was telling Dean that Dean was right about things. So I guess I just didn't see the merciless punishing of Dean that you did.

Edited May 1, 2018 by AwesomO4000

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

26 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean saying that he was poison was not what Sam needed to hear there. At all. Sam needed to hear "I'm sorry that my lying hurt you." Sam had just had a traumatic experience and gotten back memories of Gadreel using his body to kill Kevin. It wasn't Sam's responsibility to make Dean feel better in that situation and beg Dean not to leave. What Dean decided after that - to take on the mark - was his decision alone. And I myself don't see much difference between the "we'll need to keep this a working relationship only for a while" and "there's nothing you can do to gain my forgiveness. We can never have the same relationship again."

I haven't said anything about Fallen Idols. I'm not even talking about that episode. I'm speaking only of s9.

I didn't say Sam had to make Dean feel better. I do think, that Sam piled on, intentionally or not. As to Fallen Idols, Dean never flat out said Sam was no longer his brother or that he didn't want to be brothers anymore. He told Sam they couldn't be as close, but he never said 'no brothers'. Sam effectively disowned Dean as a brother. Dean never did that. And IMO Sam in s9 had to know that telling Dean he wasn't his brother was about the worst thing Sam could ever say to Dean.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I haven't said anything about Fallen Idols. I'm not even talking about that episode. I'm speaking only of s9.

I didn't say Sam had to make Dean feel better. I do think, that Sam piled on, intentionally or not. As to Fallen Idols, Dean never flat out said Sam was no longer his brother or that he didn't want to be brothers anymore. He told Sam they couldn't be as close, but he never said 'no brothers'. Sam effectively disowned Dean as a brother. Dean never did that. And IMO Sam in s9 had to know that telling Dean he wasn't his brother was about the worst thing Sam could ever say to Dean.

I didn't say anything in that part of the post about "Fallen Idols" either. That was from "Sympathy For the Devil." And Sam never said they couldn't be brothers either. That's what Dean filled in. Sam told him if they wanted to work together, it had to stay work. If Dean didn't want to work together, then they would have to work on that relationship instead, but work was work. That was my interpretation of what Sam said. Sam was saying he didn't want Dean to use their work as an inroad to fixing things. It was the same thing Sam proposed for himself in "Fallen Idols" if a little wrong-wordedly. "You can be as mad at me as you want about what I did, but if we're going to work together, we have to work together as the goal." Sam proposed the same thing for Dean..."I can work with you, but I reserve the right to still be angry with you."

As for Dean never disowning Sam... he sort of did in the beginning of "The End." He only took Sam back because he saw the future. If Dean hadn't seen that future, his plan was to basically have written Sam off and picked a different hemisphere with a "Bye Sam" *click.* Did Dean have a legitmate reason for that? Yup, but that doesn't mean that Sam didn't feel disowned - at a time when Sam also was very vulnerable, because Lucifer was messing with him.

And I see that you just want to talk about season 9, but for me, season 9 can't just be taken in a vacuum. There's too much history there. What happened in season 9 happened because of what came before.

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"I'm not sorry and I'd do it again. You're alive because of me saving your ass***, so what's the big deal?" Dean was basically asking for forgiveness without any admitting of wrongdoing. Gee, I wonder why Sam was angry?

Dean doesn't think he was wrong to save Sam so he won't apologize for it and IMO wasn't seeking forgiveness for it. Sam thinks Dean was wrong to save him in general and that he tricked him to do it. I don't recall Sam bringing up Dean lying about it after the fact though. So to me they were at an impasse really on that point. Sam doesn't get why Dean doesn't get it and Dean doesn't get why Sam doesn't get it. And IMO they never will

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

didn't say anything in that part of the post about "Fallen Idols" either. That was from "Sympathy For the Devil." And Sam never said they couldn't be brothers either. That's what Dean filled in. Sam told him if they wanted to work together, it had to stay work.

Sorry for getting the episode wrong.

I'm including transcripts from both SS Scripts and SuperWiki because Superwiki seems to add interpretation beyond just the words. Either transcript, it seemed to me at the time and now, that Dean and the audience were to understand that Sam was telling Dean they could no longer be brothers.

Quote

SS Scripts:

Uh, listen, that night that, uh You know, we went our -- our separate ways --

you mean the night you split?

Fair enough. I was messed up, man. Kevin was dead, and I I don't know what I was. Okay. Hell, maybe I still don't. But, uh I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that ....Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It's like what -- what -- what's right is wrong and what's wrong is more wrong, and I just know that when When we rode together We split the crappiness.

Yeah.

So Okay. Okay. But something's broken here, Dean.

I'm not saying that it's not. I I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this.

I don't think so. No, I-I wish, but We don't see things the same way anymore -- our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell? Or -- or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can't trust you -- not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.

Okay, look. Whatever happened we are family, okay?

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

So, what -- we're not family now?

I'm saying, you want to work? Let's work. If you want to be brothers...Those are my terms.

Read more:

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s09e12

DEAN

Okay, look. Whatever happened... We are family, okay?

and from superwiki (who seems to infuse some interpretation in transcripts more than SS scripts here is the final part.

SAM

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

DEAN

So, what -- we're not family now?

SAM

I'm saying, you want to work? Let's work. If you want to be brothers...[He pauses, letting DEAN fill in the blank] Those are my terms

[DEAN stares at him in silence and then nods once. SAM gets back into the IMPALA and DEAN slowly follows.]

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I see that you just want to talk about season 9, but for me, season 9 can't just be taken in a vacuum. There's too much history there. What happened in season 9 happened because of what came before.

Sorry. I wasn't saying I ONLY wanted to talk about s9. I was referring specifically to what happened in Sharp Teeth when Sam disowned Dean as a brother. Historically, Dean has yet to disown Sam as specifically as Sam did in s9. Not even in THE END. He didn't tell Sam he wasn't his brother. He told him that they should stay away from each other. I don't think even Sam interpreted that as 'no brothers'. He knew he was in hot water with Dean but neither ever talked about it being the end of being brothers.

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree with this though. I just don't see Sam being hailed as the emotionally mature one. At all... especially since he's generally the one proven wrong about his feelings. Even in this case, Sam was obviously not in touch with his "Well I wouldn't (do the same thing)" and that isn't what the show showed us either. It showed us Dean knowing the score and Sam being either clueless or a hypocrite and liar.

I think we just see s9 so completely differently. I never though Sam was a hypocrite or a liar. I think Jared made it worse for Sam by changing that line to "I lied". I think it was a bad choice.

I still don't think Sam lied because I don't think he would have saved Dean in the first place. That's not a knock on Sam either. Sam says he wouldn't have done exactly what Dean did and I tend to believe him. I don't think he would have tricked Dean into letting Gadreel in. I think he would have tried to make a deal after Dean died but I don't think he would have done what Dean did.

Whether or not Sam's decisions end up right or wrong, we've been told over and over again that Sam is more in tune with his emotions because he is empathetic and sweet and feels for the victims. So Sam should have understood that Dean saying he was poison would have included being poison to Sam and everyone else. Was it a formal apology? No. Was it remorse that his actions lead to Kevin's death and Sam's upset? Yes. Did Dean ask forgiveness? No because he didn't think it was wrong to save Sam.

ahrtee · May 1, 2018

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh I definitely agree with this... but I blame the writers for it. Sam did complain about the lying first thing in "Road Trip," but somehow that got twisted in "The Purge." My thought is that it was to set up the "I lied" later when Sam did the same damn thing he said he wouldn't do. Focusing on the lying and Gadreel didn't fit that narrative, so it was left out.

It's like when it's pointed out that Dean doesn't get to argue back for himself sometimes... it's because that wouldn't fit the writer narrative.

So when Sam does something you think is not so good it's the writer's fault (because they wrote him OOC? Because they wanted to make a point later and so were "throwing him under the bus"?) but when Dean does something you dislike it's the character that's wrong, bad, immature, overbearing, and anything else that makes him mean to poor Sam?

The point is that you apparently see everything through "poor misunderstood Sammy who must be defended" eyes, which is your prerogative, as long as you *accept* (not just understand) that others may see things entirely differently. I could refute everything you said in all your posts above with *my* opinions, but there's no point.

Short of canon dialog (or shown unambiguously onscreen) it's *all* opinion.

One of these days, when I have a spare 6 months or so, maybe I'll rewatch the entire show and note in each episode exactly who did something stupid/thoughtless/cruel; who lied (and about what); who blamed who and for what; who apologized (and for what, and when); who sulked or stalked off angrily; and who came back on their own (and their reasons). And everything would have to be canon--dialog or actions only, with no interpretation, like "Sam looked angry" or "Dean was feeling guilty" because everyone will see something different. Maybe that'll stop the wars...but I doubt it. *sigh*

Edited May 1, 2018 by ahrtee

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

h I definitely agree with this... but I blame the writers for it. Sam did complain about the lying first thing in "Road Trip," but somehow that got twisted in "The Purge." My thought is that it was to set up the "I lied" later when Sam did the same damn thing he said he wouldn't do. Focusing on the lying and Gadreel didn't fit that narrative, so it was left out.

It's like when it's pointed out that Dean doesn't get to argue back for himself sometimes... it's because that wouldn't fit the writer narrative.

The "I lied" wasn't originally in the writing though. There was something else that Sam was likely supposed to say but he changed it. I don't know if he made the right choice.

I thought the lying was in that Dean tricked him but not about the not telling him later on? I might be confused though.

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe that'll stop the wars...but I doubt it. *sigh*

. I've seen much worse battles on Twitter and Tumblr. This is minor LOL

ahrtee · May 1, 2018

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've seen much worse battles on Twitter and Tumblr. This is minor LOL

That's why I don't read Twitter and Tumblr. This is bad enough.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think we just see s9 so completely differently. I never though Sam was a hypocrite or a liar. I think Jared made it worse for Sam by changing that line to "I lied". I think it was a bad choice.

I still don't think Sam lied because I don't think he would have saved Dean in the first place. That's not a knock on Sam either. Sam says he wouldn't have done exactly what Dean did and I tend to believe him. I don't think he would have tricked Dean into letting Gadreel in. I think he would have tried to make a deal after Dean died but I don't think he would have done what Dean did.

And I would likely agree with what you say here and even with the criticism that Dean's actions were being criticized by the writers in "The Purge" if this had actually been the case. But it wasn't. It was probably better that Sam say "I lied," admitting it, because he pretty much did. As soon as Dean had died after saying "it's better this way," Sam was immediately calling up Crowley to do something wrong-headed about saving Dean. If the show had had Sam holding Dean and being devastated. but accepting what Dean wanted and had said he wanted, then everything would have been different. Sam would have actually been telling the truth and maybe his criticisms could have been taken seriously. I guess I don't see a difference between what Dean did with Gadreel and Sam making a deal with Crowley and doing what he did in season 10 - including lying behind Dean's back, just like Dean lied about Gadreel. Both things are things the other brother would specifically not want, so I see them as fairly equivalent.

And since Sam was going to do the same thing and wasn't telling the truth in "The Purge",*** in my opinion, the writers weren't intending what Sam was saying to be true, to be because it was always going to turn out that Sam was going to do a very similar thing to save Dean the whole time (the writers would have had the conclusion to the season mostly mapped out by then, I would think, with only 10 episodes to go)... And then in season 10, Sam doubled down on the risking others to save Dean, and that was how the writers set it up. It was to show that Sam would do the same - and even worse - to save Dean, so in retrospect, his judgement of Dean in "the Purge" maybe couldn't be taken seriously since Sam pretty much did the same thing, so he would've been talking about himself as much as Dean. And then the writers had Sam cause an apocalypse to further show that Sam was wrong to do what he did.

As I said, if Sam had been allowed to keep that conviction - because Dean was going to become a demon anyway - that would have changed everything. But Sam wasn't - and it would have been weird if he had anyway - this the guy who intended to make he and Dean Frankenstein's monsters to keep Dean alive isn't going to do what it takes to save Dean? Please. The whole set up was ridiculous and ready made for Sam to go back on his convictions - so it more looked like a set up of "see, Sam was wrong" than any actual criticism of Dean to me.

That's maybe because I typically judge what the show is trying to tell me by what it shows me via what happens and consequences more than anything else - and that includes what the show and showrunners say, because I learned from Joss Whedon - showrunners lie ; ) . So I guess that's why I just can't see the same thing looking at the show.

*** And the criticisms themselves weren't even true.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So when Sam does something you think is not so good it's the writer's fault (because they wrote him OOC? Because they wanted to make a point later and so were "throwing him under the bus"?) but when Dean does something you dislike it's the character that's wrong, bad, immature, overbearing, and anything else that makes him mean to poor Sam?

No... If you read my post, I explained that most of what Dean did, I entirely understood, it made sense, and that it didn't even bother me if he didn't apologize. I didn't even have a problem with Dean helping Gadreel take over Sam. I thought that was the right thing to do. The lying was bad, but that's a different story - that the writers apparently didn't care about as much as me.

My whole beef is with consequences. If the writers are going to show that Dean saving Sam was mainly the right thing to do, then yay! I agree. But if they are then going to turn around and show Sam saving Dean and show how bad that was, beat Sam's character over the head for his lying, and then have Sam start an apocalypse because of it, then I'm going to be annoyed with the writers and wonder if there aren't alternative motives, because to me that doesn't seem fair.

That's been my entire point all along.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Short of canon dialog (or shown unambiguously onscreen) it's *all* opinion.

I agree. And most of what I said - that I don't outright say is my opinion - was shown unambiguously as afar as I know.

Sam said he wouldn't try to save Dean if Dean didn't want that. Then Dean didn't want to be saved, but Sam tried anyway by calling up Crowley. Sam was either lying or was wrong about how he felt about the situation when he told Dean he wouldn't save him. There is no opinion there. That's what happened, and that was the story the writers must have wanted to tell because that's the story that they told.

I mean I guess the writers could be saying that they think Dean really is all of those things Sam said in "The Purge," but - to me - that wouldn't be saying Sam is any better, because Sam would also be all of those same things, too, when he did the same thing to save Dean.

That's my point and generally has been.

Edited May 2, 2018 by AwesomO4000

cavelupum · May 1, 2018

I tried to talk myself out of weighing in on this one since I already know my opinion will be unpopular on this forum, but call me a glutton for punishment ‘cause here I go. Obligatory disclaimer that the following is solely how I see things, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, YMMV, et cetera. I also don’t particularly want to argue endlessly back and forth about it as much as provide an alternative viewpoint for others to take or leave as they wish, so consider this fair warning that I may be selective in my response(s).

I personally feel there’s an argument to be made that Sam would not have gotten to the point of being angry enough to say what he did in “The Purge” had Dean been a better brother himself. Sam’s words were a result of unresolved anger and hurt that Dean never tried to address in any meaningful way but instead seemed to expect to go away on its own because “family.”

My first beef with Dean is that he ran away at the end of “Road Trip” when his priority should have been Sam. Sam had just been possessed by two entities at the same time (one a “tenant” for months on end), was freshly healed from having holes drilled into his skull, was stricken with grief at Kevin’s death (in which he played an unwitting but terrible part), was still in such poor physical condition that even an angel couldn’t fix him in one try, and to top it all off, the situation he found himself in was entirely a result of Dean’s initial decision to trust Gadreel, regardless of whether or not Dean was ultimately right in doing so and regardless of his intentions being pure. That Dean believed himself poison was not a good enough reason for him to run away from a problem he helped create when his brother’s need was (IMO) greater than his apparent urge to succumb to his own self-loathing. (I also do not feel it was Sam’s responsibility to talk him into staying, as even though they both were reeling, Sam had it worse and was more of a victim in this particular situation than Dean.)

My second beef is how little Dean tried to engage with Sam in a way that would allow Sam to talk and to be listened to and understood. Dean could have made sincere efforts to de-escalate the palpable resentment growing between them at any time, but he largely did not, never really asking Sam how he was doing and feeling or about whether or not he wanted to discuss the matter. What he did do was crack an off-color Teen Mom joke at Sam’s expense and become sarcastic and defensive when Sam brought up no longer considering their relationship one of brothers who could implicitly trust one another. The closest Dean came to appropriate communication outside of 9.13 was at the end of “Sharp Teeth,” but there he mostly brought up how he felt and rambled about up being down and nothing making sense anymore. He almost apologized but stopped himself. When Sam tried to respond by giving voice to his own valid feelings, Dean effectively shut him down by suggesting putting a couple of W’s on the board would be enough to get them past everything and added, in a way that came off as dismissive to me, “whatever happened,” they were family.

My third and final beef is that Dean never apologized in any way, shape, or form. FTR, he did not have to apologize for his decision to save Sam’s life if he thought he was right to do so, but he could have apologized for being at least a partial cause of Sam’s pain, for disregarding Sam’s wishes (even if he felt justified in his actions), or for lying to Sam for so long. There is an entire world of difference between doubling down with “I’d do it again” with no further explanation and saying something to the effect of “I would still do anything necessary to save your life, but I’m sorry for everything you’ve gone through.” The former, even if true, is insensitive of Dean to say to someone still suffering from the unresolved fallout of his decision, while something like the latter would at least attempt to come from a place of understanding that Sam too is hurting.

Are Dean’s feelings after the infamous speech valid? Yes, but so are Sam’s. Everyone has a boiling point. Given everything that transpired, I can’t fully fault Sam for being supremely ticked by the end of 9.13 and thus being more cutting in his words than he might otherwise have been. What he said was engineered to hurt, but it was also a lashing-out from someone who was deeply hurt himself and whose pain was never fully addressed, and while it might not be a fun thing to watch, I found his reaction realistic and not without explanation. He is human and incapable of always taking the high road, nor should he always be expected to do so. I don’t know, as a Sam fan, it just feels like there’s always more than enough sadness to go around for Dean and his hurt feelings but seemingly much less sympathy for the dude who had good reason to be completely traumatized by the whole affair — we never really do find out to what extent it affected Sam because it’s never discussed in any meaningful way, treated instead as little more than a catalyst for the progression of Dean’s dark arc.

companionenvy · May 1, 2018

Good post, cavelpum. Over the course of the series, there's a lot of blame to go around - but also a lot of pain to go around. Sam and Dean are both the product of tons of trauma. Dean has his issues, but so does Sam. And it goes back years. Sam also had a lousy childhood - it was bad and hurtful in a different way than Dean's, but it was still damaging, and it still shaped him into the person he is today, just as Dean's did.

In this specific case, one thing worth keeping in mind -- although I doubt the writers did, given how they've treated the issue -- is that Sam was almost certainly raped or sexually assaulted during his time in the cage (for the record, I think it is implied that Dean was abused sexually in some way by Alistair as well). In that context, having found out that another being has been overriding your bodily autonomy for months has to be particularly scarring.

ahrtee · May 1, 2018

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's not what Sam said. He told Dean that Dean could be as angry as he wanted actually and that he [Sam] deserved it. It was Dean compromising the job that Sam objected to.

Quote from Fallen Idols:

SAM: You know, this isn't gonna work.

DEAN stops and turns.

DEAN: What isn't?

SAM: Us. You, me, together, I—I thought it could, but it can't.

DEAN: You're the one that wanted back in, chief.

SAM: And you're the one who called me back in.

DEAN: I still think we got some trust building to do.

SAM: How long am I gonna be on double-secret probation?

DEAN shrugs.

DEAN: Till I say so.

SAM: Look. I know what I did. What I've done. And I am trying to climb out of that hole, I am, but you're not making it any easier.

DEAN: So what am I supposed to do, just let you off the hook?

SAM: No. You can think whatever you want. I deserve it, and worse. Hell, you'll never punish me as much as I'm punishing myself, but the point is, if we're gonna be a team, you and I—it has to be a two-way street.

DEAN: So we just go back to the way we were before?

SAM: No, because we were never that way before. Before didn't work.

DEAN frowns.

SAM: How do you think we got here?

DEAN: What's that supposed to mean?

SAM: Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby...was to get away from you.

DEAN: What?

SAM: It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother.

DEAN: Are you saying this is my fault?

SAM: No, it's my fault. All I'm saying is that, if we're gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can't just fall into the same rut.

DEAN shakes his head.

DEAN: What do you want me to do?

SAM: You're gonna have to let me grow up, for starters.

Two things to note: one is that this was just ONE MONTH IN “REAL” TIME since Sympathy for the Devil, when he was apparently feeling so guilty at what he’d done that he kept trying to apologize. I realize this is my interpretation, but Sam's "mea culpa" here doesn't sound all that sincere, and it sounds to me like he was blaming Dean but didn't want to admit it.

Dean's complaint against him in Sympathy for the Devil was:

DEAN: I tried, Sammy. I mean, I really tried. But I just can't keep pretending that everything's all right. Because it's not. And it's never going to be. You chose a demon over your own brother—

SAM rolls his eyes.

DEAN: —and look what happened.

SAM: I would give anything—anything—to take it all back.

DEAN: I know you would. And I know how sorry you are. I do. But, man...you were the one that I depended on the most. And you let me down in ways that I can't even...DEAN pauses, struggling for words.

DEAN: I'm just—I'm having a hard time forgiving and forgetting here. You know?

SAM: What can I do?

DEAN: Honestly? Nothing.

SAM nods a little, looking down: this doesn't surprise him.

DEAN: I just don't...I don't think that we can ever be what we were. You know?

SAM nods again: this isn't a surprise either.

DEAN: I just don't think I can trust you.

This is literally what Sam told Dean in Sharp Teeth and The Purge, and it took 4 months—till the end of the season—that Sam said “I lied” and forgave him. And Dean didn’t press him for forgiveness at all in that time, and especially not after just a few weeks.

Canon, not interpretation.

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So it's okay to blame Sam for Dean's decisions, but what Sam decides to do after things Dean did - like make the deal and (unknowingly) put that guilt on Sam - is still all Sam's fault for the bad choices he (Sam) made. Basically everything is Sam's fault? Got it.

Sounds fair. Because apparently everything else is Dean's fault. :)

DeeDee79 · May 1, 2018

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So when Sam does something you think is not so good it's the writer's fault (because they wrote him OOC? Because they wanted to make a point later and so were "throwing him under the bus"?) but when Dean does something you dislike it's the character that's wrong, bad, immature, overbearing, and anything else that makes him mean to poor Sam?

The point is that you apparently see everything through "poor misunderstood Sammy who must be defended" eyes, which is your prerogative, as long as you *accept* (not just understand) that others may see things entirely differently. I could refute everything you said in all your posts above with *my* opinions, but there's no point.

Short of canon dialog (or shown unambiguously onscreen) it's *all* opinion.

One of these days, when I have a spare 6 months or so, maybe I'll rewatch the entire show and note in each episode exactly who did something stupid/thoughtless/cruel; who lied (and about what); who blamed who and for what; who apologized (and for what, and when); who sulked or stalked off angrily; and who came back on their own (and their reasons). And everything would have to be canon--dialog or actions only, with no interpretation, like "Sam looked angry" or "Dean was feeling guilty" because everyone will see something different. Maybe that'll stop the wars...but I doubt it. *sigh*

I love this post. Co-sign every bit of it.

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Gadreel was just another in teh line of entities Sam is just supposed to accept bad treatment of as normal or something.

I don't think they do it to make the behaviors acceptable but more that they do it show that Sam rises above his own issues for the greater good. And they've never made him just hang out and be buddies with them. It's always in conjunction with solving a crisis. So to me it's supposed to be a positive trait of Sam's that he isn't immediately trying to kill them because there are bigger fish to fry at the time he has to ally with them.

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I would likely agree with what you say here and even with the criticism that Dean's actions were being criticized by the writers in "The Purge" if this had actually been the case. But it wasn't. It was probably better that Sam say "I lied," admitting it, because he pretty much did. As soon as Dean had died after saying "it's better this way," Sam was immediately calling up Crowley to do something wrong-headed about saving Dean. If the show had had Sam holding Dean and being devastated. but accepting what Dean wanted and had said he wanted, then everything would have been different. Sam would have actually been telling the truth and maybe his criticisms could have been taken seriously. I guess I don't see a difference between what Dean did with Gadreel and Sam making a deal with Crowley and doing what he did in season 10 - including lying behind Dean's back, just like Dean lied about Gadreel. Both things are things the other brother would specifically not want, so I see them as fairly equivalent.

I disagree that Sam was going to do something wrong headed. He reached the correct conclusion that Crowley had something to do with Dean's predicament. He said "You got Dean into this mess and you're going to get him out of it". He was going to make Crowley fix what he did. Not make some bad other deal. So to me that wasn't wrong headed at all. It might not have worked out but Sam had the right idea. I find that to be a totally different situation than Dean tricking Sam with Gadreel.

IAnd since I can't find the post I made with supposed original script Jared changed, the "I lied" may not have been better for Sam. In general it was too vaguethink it was too simple and could have covered any number of things in the narrative. I remember here and over at AV Club there was a lot of debate as to what Sam lied about. Was it just not letting Dean die at all? Was it the specificity of allowing an angel into Dean? Was it about letting Dean take on Metatron alone?

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

30 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Are Dean’s feelings after the infamous speech valid? Yes, but so are Sam’s. Everyone has a boiling point. Given everything that transpired, I

The issue is that Sam went beyond the scope of the basic issue which was the possession. Sam made it that Dean's entire existence, the thing in which Dean found meaning and purpose was bad and wrong. It didn't help his legit beef with the possession and Dean lying about it.

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

fan, it just feels like there’s always more than enough sadness to go around for Dean and his hurt feelings but seemingly much less sympathy for the dude who had good reason to be completely traumatized by the whole affair — we never really do find out to what extent it affected Sam because it’s never discussed in any meaningful way, treated instead as little more than a catalyst for the progression of Dean’s dark arc.

Is your issue with the viewers and what they discuss or with how the show itself deals with it in the narrative?

Also, re a previous post, I wasn't saying that Sam having PTSD was stupid. The stupidity is the introduction of "Lucifer's True Face" as YET ANOTHER WAY to talk about Sam's Hell trauma. Seriously. It's getting ridiculous especially when Dean's Hell Time has been covered by two 10 minute scenes, one episode with Alistair that was about Dean torturing again (thank you Ben Edlund) and then in s13 with the Scorpion and the Frog and his Hell time was treated as a joke.

51 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In this specific case, one thing worth keeping in mind -- although I doubt the writers did, given how they've treated the issue -- is that Sam was almost certainly raped or sexually assaulted during his time in the cage (for the record, I think it is implied that Dean was abused sexually in some way by Alistair as well). In that context, having found out that another being has been overriding your bodily autonomy for months has to be particularly scarring.

In the show itself, it doesn't seem to me that Dean knows all that Sam experienced in Hell and Sam only knows the hint of what Dean told him which mostly that he had tortured other souls. Nothing about what was specifically done to him other than ripped and tore him in ways he can't imagine. The audience has hints of those things but between Sam and Dean, the characters on screen, probably don't want to talk about it. So, I think it's entirely likely that Dean didn't really consider whether Sam had been sexually assaulted in Hell. He only wanted to prevent Sam's death.

Edited May 2, 2018 by catrox14

BoxManLocke · May 2, 2018

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

Are Dean’s feelings after the infamous speech valid? Yes, but so are Sam’s. Everyone has a boiling point. Given everything that transpired, I can’t fully fault Sam for being supremely ticked by the end of 9.13 and thus being more cutting in his words than he might otherwise have been. What he said was engineered to hurt, but it was also a lashing-out from someone who was deeply hurt himself and whose pain was never fully addressed, and while it might not be a fun thing to watch, I found his reaction realistic and not without explanation. He is human and incapable of always taking the high road, nor should he always be expected to do so. I don’t know, as a Sam fan, it just feels like there’s always more than enough sadness to go around for Dean and his hurt feelings but seemingly much less sympathy for the dude who had good reason to be completely traumatized by the whole affair — we never really do find out to what extent it affected Sam because it’s never discussed in any meaningful way, treated instead as little more than a catalyst for the progression of Dean’s dark arc.

I really think Sam's monologue in The Purge could have been one of the most interesting and ballsy bits of POV the show has ever done -- if they had followed through with it.

Too bad it didn't amount to anything in the end. It should have been discussed continuously until we reached a resolution in the finale. What we got instead was absolutely nothing until Sam's lame-ass apology which turned this potentially awesome thing into a mean kid's rant.

Supernatural has been lacking depth and ambition for a long time, but it's so frustrating when they set up something amazing and do absolutely nothing with it. Same thing can be said of Demon Dean. Carver was the king of superficial angst.

Edited May 2, 2018 by BoxManLocke

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

My first beef with Dean is that he ran away at the end of “Road Trip” when his priority should have been Sam. Sam had just been possessed by two entities at the same time (one a “tenant” for months on end), was freshly healed from having holes drilled into his skull, was stricken with grief at Kevin’s death (in which he played an unwitting but terrible part), was still in such poor physical condition that even an angel couldn’t fix him in one try, and to top it all off, the situation he found himself in was entirely a result of Dean’s initial decision to trust Gadreel, regardless of whether or not Dean was ultimately right in doing so and regardless of his intentions being pure. That Dean believed himself poison was not a good enough reason for him to run away from a problem he helped create when his brother’s need was (IMO) greater than his apparent urge to succumb to his own self-loathing. (I also do not feel it was Sam’s responsibility to talk him into staying, as even though they both were reeling, Sam had it worse and was more of a victim in this particular situation than Dean.)

Sure he probably just should have sucked it up and stayed with Sam but then there would have been no MoC SL LOL.

Dean hated himself so much that went off with Crowley. I mean I get that if you don't like Dean then it's hard to understand the level of guilt and shame he had that drove him to leave and make further wrong and terrible choices.

That said, I don't see what good it would have done Sam for Dean to stay around when he had absolutely no intention of apologizing. It would have just pissed Sam off more and more every day.

DeeDee79 · May 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, I don't see what good it would have done Sam for Dean to stay around when he had absolutely no intention of apologizing. It would have just pissed Sam off more and more every day.

Agreed. Also, even if Sam was Dean's "priority" it's unlikely that Sam would have wanted him to stay anyway. What was he going to do, help nurse Sam back to health or talk him through the trauma of his experience? While that seems logical in theory ( and real life ) there's no way that it would made any sense whatsoever in the narrative or with the way that their relationship was at that point in time. I suppose if you hate Dean it's easy to shit on his every move and use the Gadreel incident as your reasoning to do so. It also makes it easy to justify Sam's words while vilifying Dean whenever he's dared to get angry with Sam throughout the last 13 seasons.

companionenvy · May 2, 2018

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In the show itself, it doesn't seem to me that Dean knows all that Sam experienced in Hell and Sam only knows the hint of what Dean told him which mostly that he had tortured other souls. Nothing about what was specifically done to him other than ripped and tore him in ways he can't imagine. The audience has hints of those things but between Sam and Dean, the characters on screen, probably don't want to talk about it. So, I think it's entirely likely that Dean didn't really consider whether Sam had been sexually assaulted in Hell. He only wanted to prevent Sam's death.

Oh, I don't think it increases Dean's culpability, because yeah, Dean doesn't know everything Sam went through in hell. I'm saying it gives more weight to why Sam would be so affected by what had just happened to him.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Canon, not interpretation.

I interpret texts for a living. If only it were that simple.... :)

Joking aside, I'm not saying that what happened in canon didn't happen. I don't think anyone is. But it plainly is a matter of interpretation what you choose to prioritize, whether or not you choose to see a character as sincere at any particular moment, etc. Like, it is also canon that Sam explicitly responded to Dean saying "So, its my fault" with "No, it is my fault." He also says "You can think whatever you want. I deserve it, and worse."

Dean not being willing to hunt with Sam after what he did is a totally valid reaction, IMO. As is Sam saying that while he gets that Dean is angry, he isn't actually willing to hunt with him under the terms he's set. I also don't think that what Sam is primarily objecting to is Dean not trusting him in the moment. That's part of it, hence the "double secret probation line, but the takeaway is that Sam wants more of an equal partnership more generally, rather than falling back into the older brother/kid brother dynamic.

cavelupum · May 2, 2018

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The issue is that Sam went beyond the scope of the basic issue which was the possession. Sam made it that Dean's entire existence, the thing in which Dean found meaning and purpose was bad and wrong. It didn't help his legit beef with the possession and Dean lying about it.

It’s not uncommon for people to go for the verbal gut punch or bring up things not directly related to the argument at hand when they’re lashing out. I do not personally believe a Sam who had been heard out, respected, and apologized to would have been as cutting in what he had to say, but we’ll never know for certain. Dean had a right to feel upset by Sam’s words, and Sam had a right to the anger festering within that I feel led to him saying them. Neither of them were saints in this scenario, IMO.

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is your issue with the viewers and what they discuss or with how the show itself deals with it in the narrative?

Also, re a previous post, I wasn't saying that Sam having PTSD was stupid.

I didn’t personally like the way the show dealt with it, with the lingering shot on Dean’s devastated face after Sam leaves and never giving Sam POV thereafter or the opportunity to say his piece about how everything affected him. Sam’s involvement in a storyline that should have left a huge and lasting impact on him on many levels effectively ended with a speech that made a lot of people feel very negatively toward the character, even for years afterward.

As to the viewers, I don’t really have an issue with anyone discussing whatever they like, of course, which is why I weigh in with my own thoughts, not to change minds but hopefully to give some perspective on how the other side sees it, I suppose. Maybe it’s just bad luck, maybe it’s down to my perception of things, but it feels like there aren’t a whole lot of Sam-positive places out there to discuss the show with other fans, which is something I do want to do. Hopefully y’all don’t mind having me here regardless, even if we don’t always agree. :)

No worries, I knew you were referring to the “Lucifer’s true face” storyline, I just don’t see it as stupid myself because it’s what I’m most looking forward to in the show at the moment, haha. If I didn’t feel personally invested in seeing its resolution, maybe I’d feel differently about it.

DeeDee79 · May 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

but it feels like there aren’t a whole lot of Sam-positive places out there to discuss the show with other fans, which is something I do want to do.

It's funny that you said this because when I first got invested in the show all I ran into were Sam-positive sites that loathed everything about

Dean :(

Edited May 2, 2018 by DeeDee79

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's part of it, hence the "double secret probation line, but the takeaway is that Sam wants more of an equal partnership more generally, rather than falling back into the older brother/kid brother dynamic.

If only Sam would have said that to Dean. But he didn't. He didn't make it nearly as specific as you're suggesting. It was much more broad. That family is why they were the way they were. No room for familial relationships. Just work. That's kind of a ridiculous expectation from Sam TBH. Did he really expect Dean would just stop being his brother?

I don't think Dean did that in s5. He said I can't trust you like I did before. But he never told Sam to stop being his little brother.

6 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

No worries, I knew you were referring to the “Lucifer’s true face” storyline, I just don’t see it as stupid myself because it’s what I’m most looking forward to in the show at the moment, haha. If I didn’t feel personally invested in seeing its resolution, maybe I’d feel differently about it.

I don't see what else there is to cover with it at this point. Sam will either have more emotional scenes and try to kill Lucifer (not a spoiler) or he won't. To me, it's the same thing as the visit to the cage. I just don't know how he's even going to be able to do it, if he's that affected by it. I would think Lucifer would have some kind of control over him via that True Face. I kind of think it will all go very badly for Sam. Again not a spoiler just a spec.

ahrtee · May 2, 2018

15 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Joking aside, I'm not saying that what happened in canon didn't happen. I don't think anyone is. But it plainly is a matter of interpretation what you choose to prioritize, whether or not you choose to see a character as sincere at any particular moment, etc. Like, it is also canon that Sam explicitly responded to Dean saying "So, its my fault" with "No, it is my fault." He also says "You can think whatever you want. I deserve it, and worse."

Dean not being willing to hunt with Sam after what he did is a totally valid reaction, IMO. As is Sam saying that while he gets that Dean is angry, he isn't actually willing to hunt with him under the terms he's set. I also don't think that what Sam is primarily objecting to is Dean not trusting him in the moment. That's part of it, hence the "double secret probation line, but the takeaway is that Sam wants more of an equal partnership more generally, rather than falling back into the older brother/kid brother dynamic.

I wasn't prioritizing anything, just quoting. The only interpretation I made was clearly noted. If you want to "prioritize" "It's my fault" over "one of the reasons I went off with Ruby...was to get away from you....It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother," that's fine. I also have no particular problem with Sam wanting an equal partnership. What I took (and still take) exception to was the timing--*right after* his "sin" of letting Dean down. He didn't let Dean get over his anger but pushed, IMO, too hard and too soon. When he was angry at Dean after the Amy Pond fiasco, he took off for 6 weeks and Dean left him alone to work things out for himself. And then it was his decision to rejoin Dean in hunting.

Dean didn't really have the option to take off to work things out this time--the Apocalypse was looming, Bobby was out of commission and I don't think it's in his nature to turn Sam loose in any case. So he had to work through his issues while Sam was still there. I can understand Sam wanting to stand up for equality, but IMO it was the wrong place, wrong time to push it; and, if he truly wanted to make amends to Dean, he should have recognized that and backed down, at least for a while.

Edited May 2, 2018 by ahrtee

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

10 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

, but it feels like there aren’t a whole lot of Sam-positive places out there to discuss the show with other fans, which is something I do want to do. Hopefully y’all don’t mind having me here regardless, even if we don’t always agree. :)

All are welcome here.

AwesomO4000 · May 2, 2018

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Two things to note: one is that this was just ONE MONTH IN “REAL” TIME since Sympathy for the Devil, when he was apparently feeling so guilty at what he’d done that he kept trying to apologize. I realize this is my interpretation, but Sam's "mea culpa" here doesn't sound all that sincere, and it sounds to me like he was blaming Dean but didn't want to admit it.

And you are entitled to your opinion on what this discussion means. I just don't happen to agree that's what it meant.

And when I see others saying things like "Sam called Dean a bully" in this quoted discussion stated as fact, I'm going to disagree, because that's not what Sam said, and there is more than one way to interpret what Sam did say.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

This is literally what Sam told Dean in Sharp Teeth and The Purge, and it took 4 months—till the end of the season—that Sam said “I lied” and forgave him. And Dean didn’t press him for forgiveness at all in that time, and especially not after just a few weeks.

Canon, not interpretation.

Then I guess even canon is relative and open to interpretation? Dean suggested in "Sharp Teeth" - "I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this." To me, that sounds like asking for forgiveness of sorts, depending on what "[getting] past all this" means. So for me it might not be canon that Dean didn't ask for forgiveness in all of that time, and it actually was only a few weeks.

I also tend to count Sam's olive branch at the end of "Mother's Little Helper" as the beginning of Sam's forgiveness, but I also get that not everyone would look at it that way.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Dean did that in s5. He said I can't trust you like I did before. But he never told Sam to stop being his little brother.

I think the problem for me is that the "Sharp Teeth" conversation was equally vague - for me anyway. Sam never finished his statement. 'If you want to be brothers..." what? We have to work on it? We have to negotiate more? We can't? What? Sam just admitted that they split the crappiness when they were together - those were Sam's words, he wasn't just agreeing with Dean - so to me it seemed like Sam wanted to still "split the crappiness" together. And I think Sam's concern about things not working the way they were was legitimate. Dean had earlier in the case been acting hinky, lying to Sam to get rid of him and such, so there were some things to iron out.

I guess for me Sam's "If you want to be brothers..." would for sure be leading to "we aren't brothers any more." So I guess that's my stumbling block there that I can't get over to make that leap.

gonzosgirrl · May 2, 2018

32 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

I didn’t personally like the way the show dealt with it, with the lingering shot on Dean’s devastated face after Sam leaves and never giving Sam POV thereafter or the opportunity to say his piece about how everything affected him. Sam’s involvement in a storyline that should have left a huge and lasting impact on him on many levels effectively ended with a speech that made a lot of people feel very negatively toward the character, even for years afterward.

So how did you feel about the lingering shot on Dean's devastated face after Sam leaves again after lying to Kevin that he would try to set aside their differences? If they wanted me to feel sympathy for Sam, they should've have written him as such a petulant shit.

Instead of talking about all these issues, they had him say he was ready to die and there was no point in Dean saving him. I wish they would've had Cas come and take him back to that moment, knowing only what Dean knew then, and let him choose to die. I bet he wouldn't have.

Edited May 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

29 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

t’s not uncommon for people to go for the verbal gut punch or bring up things not directly related to the argument at hand when they’re lashing out. I

It's not uncommon and when it happens then it's open for criticism. I guess what I'm getting is that you're thinking that because folks are against Sam's words that they are against Sam. And that's not necessarily the case.

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Then I guess even canon is relative and open to interpretation? Dean suggested in "Sharp Teeth" - "I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this." To me, that sounds like asking for forgiveness of sorts, depending on what "[getting] past all this" means. So for me it might not be canon that Dean didn't ask for forgiveness in all of that time, and it actually was only a few weeks.

I don't think that was seeking forgiveness. He wanted to just move on like they have in the past. He wanted a relationship with Sam.

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think the problem for me is that the "Sharp Teeth" conversation was equally vague - for me anyway. Sam never finished his statement. 'If you want to be brothers..." what? We have to work on it? We have to negotiate more? We can't? What? Sam just admitted that they split the crappiness when they were together - those were Sam's words, he wasn't just agreeing with Dean - so to me it seemed like Sam wanted to still "split the crappiness" together. And I think Sam's concern about things not working the way they were was legitimate. Dean had earlier in the case been acting hinky, lying to Sam to get rid of him and such, so there were some things to iron out.

I guess for me Sam's "If you want to be brothers..." would for sure be leading to "we aren't brothers any more." So I guess that's my stumbling block there that I can't get over to make that leap.

I go by Sam's words and how Sam kind of shook his head slightly after saying it. That if Dean wants to be brothers...well he better not count on that happening.

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Instead of talking about all these issues, they had him say he was ready to die and there was no point in Dean saving him. I

That's the crazy thing. Sam did not want to die at the end of s8. He didn't. Then it was all in his comascape which why would Dean be expected to rely on Sam's comascape as his true intention is beyond me. I mean it really implies that someone in coma is deciding whether to live or die. Not that they natural order is actually in play on any of this stuff. LOL

gonzosgirrl · May 2, 2018

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry. I wasn't saying I ONLY wanted to talk about s9. I was referring specifically to what happened in Sharp Teeth when Sam disowned Dean as a brother. Historically, Dean has yet to disown Sam as specifically as Sam did in s9. Not even in THE END. He didn't tell Sam he wasn't his brother. He told him that they should stay away from each other. I don't think even Sam interpreted that as 'no brothers'. He knew he was in hot water with Dean but neither ever talked about it being the end of being brothers.

And wasn't it Sam who walked away from Dean then? With a speech somewhat similar to Dean's "I'm poison"? Only Sam's was "I can't trust myself".

ahrtee · May 2, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Then I guess even canon is relative and open to interpretation? Dean suggested in "Sharp Teeth" - "I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this." To me, that sounds like asking for forgiveness of sorts, depending on what "[getting] past all this" means. So for me it might not be canon that Dean didn't ask for forgiveness in all of that time, and it actually was only a few weeks.

That was *before* the Purge speech, and even before Sam made his "partners only" ultimatum. That was when he was hoping they could just move past it. Once he saw that Sam was unwilling to forgive, he backed off and and didn't ask again for the rest of the season. That's canon. If you think it "sounds" like Dean was asking for forgiveness, or if Sam forgave him on his own earlier, that's interpretation.

Personally, I disagree with about 90% of your interpretations, but it doesn't mean they're wrong. But to me there's a strong distinction between canon and personal interpretation and I think that line has been crossed *a lot* in these discussions, and that leads to a lot of bad feelings on all sides; and that's what bothers me here.

Edited May 2, 2018 by ahrtee
double word.

gonzosgirrl · May 2, 2018

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not uncommon and when it happens then it's open for criticism. I guess what I'm getting is that you're thinking that because folks are against Sam's words that they are against Sam. And that's not necessarily the case.

I don't think that was seeking forgiveness. He wanted to just move on like they have in the past. He wanted a relationship with Sam.

I go by Sam's words and how Sam kind of shook his head slightly after saying it. That if Dean wants to be brothers...well he better not count on that happening.

And Sam doubled down on the not being brothers thing again at the beginning of The Purge, telling Dean he was only being honest.

ETA: Transcript because it reads as bad as it appeared on screen. Sam deliberately takes the opportunity to remind Dean of his terms. I think it's pretty clear what he meant.

SAM Hey.

DEAN [barely looks up and raspy answers] Hey.

SAM [without much concern] You go to bed last night?

DEAN [Clears throat] What? Uh, no. No, "Rudy" was on. "Unforgiven," and then I was too jacked to sleep, so...research.

SAM [still rummaging around the kitchen getting breakfast] Gadreel?

DEAN And Metatron and the mark of Cain and...

[he looks up and realizes SAM isn't really paying attention]

...Crickets.

I did find us a case, though.

SAM Oh, yeah?

DEAN Yeah, was a strange death in Stillwater, Minnesota. A competitive eater died after a hot dog-eating contest.

SAM So, what? Death by tube steak?

DEAN If only. He got attacked in his car, but, uh, get this -- he shrunk from 300 pounds to 90 pounds.

SAM Witchcraft?

DEAN Or a heavy-duty laxative. You game?

SAM Yeah.

DEAN Good. Looks like it's a whore's bath for me. I'll be ready in five.

[DEAN gets up to leave but SAM stops him in the doorway]

SAM You sure you're okay, Dean?

DEAN Why wouldn't I be?

SAM 'Cause -- I don't know you... This isn't about what I said the other day, is it?

DEAN Oh, about that we're not supposed to be brothers? No, don't flatter yourself. I don't break that easy.

SAM Oh, good, 'cause I was just being honest.

DEAN [sarcastically as he leaves] Oh, yeah. No, I got that loud and clear.

Edited May 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

DEAN Oh, about that we're not supposed to be brothers? No, don't flatter yourself. I don't break that easy.

SAM Oh, good, 'cause I was just being honest.

DEAN [sarcastically as he leaves] Oh, yeah. No, I got that loud and clear.

Oh, that's right! Man, so yeah. Sam 100% didn't want to be brothers anymore. Dang. So that plus the rest of the Purge Speech....no wonder Dean looked so shocked at the end of the Purge.

Also, DONNA. I love Donna. I was starting to worry she was only gonna be reduced to comic relief after WS.

cavelupum · May 2, 2018

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So how did you feel about the lingering shot on Dean's devastated face after Sam leaves again after lying to Kevin that he would try to set aside their differences? If they wanted me to feel sympathy for Sam, they should've have written him as such a petulant shit.

Instead of talking about all these issues, they had him say he was ready to die and there was no point in Dean saving him. I wish they would've had Cas come and take him back to that moment, knowing only what Dean knew then, and let him choose to die. I bet he wouldn't have.

That’s more proof of what I was saying WRT the show not giving Sam any POV on the matter, though. The entirety of the Gadreel arc was seen through Dean’s eyes even though I personally feel Sam should have been (and was, IMO) just as if not more deeply affected by the fallout. Maybe sympathy for Sam would come more naturally to casual viewers and Dean fans if we got to see Sam’s face fall into despair once out of Dean’s line of sight, or if he got to verbalize his pain to another character if he was too angry to do so with Dean. Maybe not. Either way, it would have been easy to work scenes like that in, but TPTB didn’t care to show him in a sympathetic light. I still feel there’s plenty of reasons to feel sympathy for him and find his anger understandable, but naturally nobody has to agree with me.

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

1 minute ago, cavelupum said:

That’s more proof of what I was saying WRT the show not giving Sam any POV on the matter, though. The entirety of the Gadreel arc was seen through Dean’s eyes even though I personally feel Sam should have been (and was, IMO) just as if not more deeply affected by the fallout. Maybe sympathy for Sam would come more naturally to casual viewers and Dean fans if we got to see Sam’s face fall into despair once out of Dean’s line of sight, or if he got to verbalize his pain to another character if he was too angry to do so with Dean. Maybe not. Either way, it would have been easy to work scenes like that in, but TPTB didn’t care to show him in a sympathetic light. I still feel there’s plenty of reasons to feel sympathy for him and find his anger understandable, but naturally nobody has to agree with me.

IMO, they could have shown the coffee pot as the closing shot and it wouldn't have made it any worse or any better for Sam or Dean. Sam was unsympathetic because of what he said. Sam could even have said that he was just angry and didn't mean it later, and I wouldn't believe him TBH because Sam delivered them with IMO calculation.

Quote

Dean: About what you said the other day.

Sam: I thought it didn’t bother you.
Dean: You know Sam, I saved your hide back there. I saved your hide at that church — in the hospital. I may not think things all the way through but when I do, it’s because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.
Sam: And that is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in and even when you mess up you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad... but you’re not. Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind, we’re no closer to beating this angel thing, please tell me, what is the upside to me being alive?
Dean: Are you kidding me? You and me, fighting the good fight together.
Sam: Just once be honest with me, you didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.
Dean: What are you talking about?
Sam: I was ready to die, I was ready. I should have died. But you, you didn’t want to be alone. That’s what this boils down to, you can’t stand the thought of being alone. I’ll give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrifice, as long as you’re not the one being hurt.
Dean: Alright, you want to be honest, if the situation was reversed, and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.

Sam: No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t. I’m heading to bed.

Reganne · May 2, 2018

18 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

That’s more proof of what I was saying WRT the show not giving Sam any POV on the matter, though. The entirety of the Gadreel arc was seen through Dean’s eyes even though I personally feel Sam should have been (and was, IMO) just as if not more deeply affected by the fallout. Maybe sympathy for Sam would come more naturally to casual viewers and Dean fans if we got to see Sam’s face fall into despair once out of Dean’s line of sight, or if he got to verbalize his pain to another character if he was too angry to do so with Dean. Maybe not. Either way, it would have been easy to work scenes like that in, but TPTB didn’t care to show him in a sympathetic light. I still feel there’s plenty of reasons to feel sympathy for him and find his anger understandable, but naturally nobody has to agree with me.

I agree. The narrative focused mostly on Dean and his feelings with that last shot because the writers wanted the audience to feel with Dean. Dean gets the POV narrative for the most part through out the series which is one of the reasons most viewers tend to side with him over Sam.

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean gets the POV narrative for the most part through out the series which is one of the reasons most viewers tend to side with him over Sam.

I think it flips depending on the SL and emotional requirements of the show. I do think Dean shoulders the burden of the emotional stuff because Jensen is the best actor in the show (IMO) and handles the emotional stuff like nobody's business so they give him more of it. I'm not sure that's necessarily Dean's POV though.

gonzosgirrl · May 2, 2018

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

That’s more proof of what I was saying WRT the show not giving Sam any POV on the matter, though. The entirety of the Gadreel arc was seen through Dean’s eyes even though I personally feel Sam should have been (and was, IMO) just as if not more deeply affected by the fallout. Maybe sympathy for Sam would come more naturally to casual viewers and Dean fans if we got to see Sam’s face fall into despair once out of Dean’s line of sight, or if he got to verbalize his pain to another character if he was too angry to do so with Dean. Maybe not. Either way, it would have been easy to work scenes like that in, but TPTB didn’t care to show him in a sympathetic light. I still feel there’s plenty of reasons to feel sympathy for him and find his anger understandable, but naturally nobody has to agree with me.

I don't think anybody is saying Sam didn't have a right to be angry. I know I'm not. It's the way he chose to express that anger - by being intentionally petty and cruel, choosing his words like weapons. If it happened once, I would say okay, it was temper, heat of the moment, an honest if ugly need to make Dean hurt as much as he himself was hurt. But it happened time and again over the course of the arc. Dean literally had to die before Sam chose to maybe let him die believing he was forgiven - and that's giving Sam the most lenient benefit of the doubt when the best he could come up with was "I lied".

I keep reading that it's the narrative for us to feel more sympathy for Dean. Maybe that was the point.

Edited May 2, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

Myrelle · May 2, 2018

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And wasn't it Sam who walked away from Dean then? With a speech somewhat similar to Dean's "I'm poison"? Only Sam's was "I can't trust myself".

And at a time when Dean had just learned that he was "destined" to be Michael's vessel and before Sam learned that he was "destined" to be Lucifer's.

I think that part of it gets lost a lot in fandom-that when Sam decided that he needed to step back from hunting was when Dean probably needed him by his side-and not just on the hunt, but in life-the most. He'd just friggin' returned from Hell AND he found out that an incredibly powerful supernatural being was after him and Sam decides that now he has to quit hunting because he can't control his addiction to demon blood? And this, after all that Dean had sacrificed life-long for Sam? And John. And the hunting life, in general.

I can't even imagine how lost and alone Dean must have felt at that moment in his life.

And then to have Sam call him to get back together only when Sam learned that he was "destined" to be Lucifer's meatsuit? Talk about adding insult to injury.

I remember watching that scene by the picnic table and thinking surely they'll be some kind of a positive resolution for Dean to this; and what did we get-The End, wherein Dean was shown the error of his ways for leaving SAM'S side and then the coup-de-grace that was Fallen Idols wherein Dean was never written more OOC and caricature-like before, IMO-up to that point in the series, that is.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Myrelle

Myrelle · May 2, 2018

5 hours ago, cavelupum said:

I tried to talk myself out of weighing in on this one since I already know my opinion will be unpopular on this forum, but call me a glutton for punishment ‘cause here I go. Obligatory disclaimer that the following is solely how I see things, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, YMMV, et cetera. I also don’t particularly want to argue endlessly back and forth about it as much as provide an alternative viewpoint for others to take or leave as they wish, so consider this fair warning that I may be selective in my response(s).

I personally feel there’s an argument to be made that Sam would not have gotten to the point of being angry enough to say what he did in “The Purge” had Dean been a better brother himself. Sam’s words were a result of unresolved anger and hurt that Dean never tried to address in any meaningful way but instead seemed to expect to go away on its own because “family.”

My first beef with Dean is that he ran away at the end of “Road Trip” when his priority should have been Sam. Sam had just been possessed by two entities at the same time (one a “tenant” for months on end), was freshly healed from having holes drilled into his skull, was stricken with grief at Kevin’s death (in which he played an unwitting but terrible part), was still in such poor physical condition that even an angel couldn’t fix him in one try, and to top it all off, the situation he found himself in was entirely a result of Dean’s initial decision to trust Gadreel, regardless of whether or not Dean was ultimately right in doing so and regardless of his intentions being pure. That Dean believed himself poison was not a good enough reason for him to run away from a problem he helped create when his brother’s need was (IMO) greater than his apparent urge to succumb to his own self-loathing. (I also do not feel it was Sam’s responsibility to talk him into staying, as even though they both were reeling, Sam had it worse and was more of a victim in this particular situation than Dean.)

My second beef is how little Dean tried to engage with Sam in a way that would allow Sam to talk and to be listened to and understood. Dean could have made sincere efforts to de-escalate the palpable resentment growing between them at any time, but he largely did not, never really asking Sam how he was doing and feeling or about whether or not he wanted to discuss the matter. What he did do was crack an off-color Teen Mom joke at Sam’s expense and become sarcastic and defensive when Sam brought up no longer considering their relationship one of brothers who could implicitly trust one another. The closest Dean came to appropriate communication outside of 9.13 was at the end of “Sharp Teeth,” but there he mostly brought up how he felt and rambled about up being down and nothing making sense anymore. He almost apologized but stopped himself. When Sam tried to respond by giving voice to his own valid feelings, Dean effectively shut him down by suggesting putting a couple of W’s on the board would be enough to get them past everything and added, in a way that came off as dismissive to me, “whatever happened,” they were family.

My third and final beef is that Dean never apologized in any way, shape, or form. FTR, he did not have to apologize for his decision to save Sam’s life if he thought he was right to do so, but he could have apologized for being at least a partial cause of Sam’s pain, for disregarding Sam’s wishes (even if he felt justified in his actions), or for lying to Sam for so long. There is an entire world of difference between doubling down with “I’d do it again” with no further explanation and saying something to the effect of “I would still do anything necessary to save your life, but I’m sorry for everything you’ve gone through.” The former, even if true, is insensitive of Dean to say to someone still suffering from the unresolved fallout of his decision, while something like the latter would at least attempt to come from a place of understanding that Sam too is hurting.

Are Dean’s feelings after the infamous speech valid? Yes, but so are Sam’s. Everyone has a boiling point. Given everything that transpired, I can’t fully fault Sam for being supremely ticked by the end of 9.13 and thus being more cutting in his words than he might otherwise have been. What he said was engineered to hurt, but it was also a lashing-out from someone who was deeply hurt himself and whose pain was never fully addressed, and while it might not be a fun thing to watch, I found his reaction realistic and not without explanation. He is human and incapable of always taking the high road, nor should he always be expected to do so. I don’t know, as a Sam fan, it just feels like there’s always more than enough sadness to go around for Dean and his hurt feelings but seemingly much less sympathy for the dude who had good reason to be completely traumatized by the whole affair — we never really do find out to what extent it affected Sam because it’s never discussed in any meaningful way, treated instead as little more than a catalyst for the progression of Dean’s dark arc.

In the last few days, it has occurred to me more than ever before that for every argument anyone can make for Sam's behavior and choices being a result of Dean not being a good enough brother to Sam in S9 and 10, anyone can also make using almost the exact same arguments for Dean's behavior and choices in S4 and 5 because Sam wasn't a good enough brother to Dean.

The difference all lies in what the writing was going for and who was made to apologize for what and when and whether they even really apologized at all and apparently that remains strictly up to the way all of those things were "interpreted" by any individual.

And I now feel like, writing-wise, S4/5 and S9/10 were just a role reversal type of thing and little more than that and I further think that it was the acting that made the biggest difference in overall audience perception and interpretation of both. JMO, of course.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Myrelle

AwesomO4000 · May 2, 2018

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The "I lied" wasn't originally in the writing though. There was something else that Sam was likely supposed to say but he changed it. I don't know if he made the right choice.

I thought the lying was in that Dean tricked him but not about the not telling him later on? I might be confused though.

. I've seen much worse battles on Twitter and Tumblr. This is minor LOL

I've never considered this before. Hmm. I guess it depends on how much Sam knew by then about how Gadreel came to take him over at that point. I haven't watched season 9 all that much, so I could be wrong. I just assumed Sam was talking about all the times Dean told him there wasn't anything wrong with him, because that's the lying Sam knew about first, and finding out about Gadreel explained all of that finally. So I might be confused, too.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That was *before* the Purge speech, and even before Sam made his "partners only" ultimatum. That was when he was hoping they could just move past it. Once he saw that Sam was unwilling to forgive, he backed off and and didn't ask again for the rest of the season. That's canon. If you think it "sounds" like Dean was asking for forgiveness, or if Sam forgave him on his own earlier, that's interpretation.

Personally, I disagree with about 90% of your interpretations, but it doesn't mean they're wrong. But to me there's a strong distinction between canon and personal interpretation and I think that line has been crossed *a lot* in these discussions, and that leads to a lot of bad feelings on all sides; and that's what bothers me here.

Ohhh, okay. Sorry about that. I misunderstood. I didn't know you meant after that episode. I thought you meant from after "Road Trip."

If it makes it any better, once Sam got his terms for working together in "Fallen Idols," he didn't ask Dean for any forgiveness either and took Dean's little digs (rare but they happened) without any real complaint.

And that's fine. I don't always agree with your interpretations either ... though I'd put it at about 60% disagreement for me. And that doesn't mean your interpretations are wrong either.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry. I wasn't saying I ONLY wanted to talk about s9. I was referring specifically to what happened in Sharp Teeth when Sam disowned Dean as a brother. Historically, Dean has yet to disown Sam as specifically as Sam did in s9. Not even in THE END. He didn't tell Sam he wasn't his brother. He told him that they should stay away from each other. I don't think even Sam interpreted that as 'no brothers'. He knew he was in hot water with Dean but neither ever talked about it being the end of being brothers.

Isn't that almost worse? As far as Sam knew, Sam might never see Dean again, because that's what Dean made it sound like. He said they'd be better off apart and so should stay away from each other for good.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So how did you feel about the lingering shot on Dean's devastated face after Sam leaves again after lying to Kevin that he would try to set aside their differences? If they wanted me to feel sympathy for Sam, they should've have written him as such a petulant shit.

Instead of talking about all these issues, they had him say he was ready to die and there was no point in Dean saving him. I wish they would've had Cas come and take him back to that moment, knowing only what Dean knew then, and let him choose to die. I bet he wouldn't have.

This has been my point... that I felt like the writers didn't want me to sympathize with Sam there. It would have been easy to have us sympathize more with Sam, but I don't think that's what the writers wanted at all.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And wasn't it Sam who walked away from Dean then? With a speech somewhat similar to Dean's "I'm poison"? Only Sam's was "I can't trust myself".

If I remember correctly, Sam let Dean know his reasoning and gave Dean a chance to object. And his reason for leaving was because he thought he'd be a detriment to Dean while hunting. He wanted to fix himself first if he was going to return.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

And then to have Sam call him to get back together only when Sam learned that he was "destined" to be Lucifer's meatsuit? Talk about adding insult to injury.

It wasn't just that. Sam was able to resist the demon blood the hunters tried to force on him. That gave Sam some confidence that he could overcome his addiction that he hadn't had before.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, that's right! Man, so yeah. Sam 100% didn't want to be brothers anymore. Dang. So that plus the rest of the Purge Speech....no wonder Dean looked so shocked at the end of the Purge.

And I still don't think that's the only way to interpret it. I thought Sam meant that he meant what he said... not that he meant what Dean interpreted. Sam had been the one to initialize the conversation and ask Dean how Dean was and making sure that he was okay. Sam didn't seem to be acting like someone who wanted nothing to do with Dean. But I realize I'm alone on this one, and I'm fine with that.

AwesomO4000 · May 2, 2018

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sounds fair. Because apparently everything else is Dean's fault. :)

There's else? ; ) . But seriously, lately for me the the angst is pretty much taking things over... they'll have Sam and Dean do the dumbest things - like join the BMoL - as long as they can get angst out of it. Which brings me to...

I generally think it's the writers' fault. They are the ones who like to make things ambiguous and create angst where it doesn't need to be. In my opinion.

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Isn't that almost worse? As far as Sam knew, Sam might never see Dean again, because that's what Dean made it sound like. He said they'd be better off apart and so should stay away from each other for good.

That doesn't mean that Dean no longer considered him his brother though. He thought it would not be okay for he and Dean to continue to be around each other. To me, it's not unlike when Sam left for college and they didn't talk for 2 or 3 years. I don't think either told the other they were no longer brothers. IMO that's like a knife in Dean's heart. That's probably the worst thing Sam could have ever said to him. It's Sam formally telling Dean that he is no longer worth being his brother.

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I still don't think that's the only way to interpret it. I thought Sam meant that he meant what he said... not that he meant what Dean interpreted. Sam had been the one to initialize the conversation and ask Dean how Dean was and making sure that he was okay. Sam didn't seem to be acting like someone who wanted nothing to do with Dean. But I realize I'm alone on this one, and I'm fine with that.

I truly didn't think Sam cared how Dean was. He was so bitchy about "I'm just being honest". I thought Jared played it snarky. I think he wanted to drive home the point that he didn't consider them brothers and to remind Dean that was how it was going to be. Then he unloaded the Purge stuff.

Edited May 2, 2018 by catrox14

ahrtee · May 2, 2018

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There's else? ; ) . But seriously, lately for me the the angst is pretty much taking things over... they'll have Sam and Dean do the dumbest things - like join the BMoL - as long as they can get angst out of it. Which brings me to...

I generally think it's the writers' fault. They are the ones who like to make things ambiguous and create angst where it doesn't need to be. In my opinion.

Yeah, I realized that was bad phrasing on my part, but I was too tired to come up with a different way to say it, so I was just hoping no one would call me on it. :)

The writers have always had both Sam and Dean do incredibly stupid things just to ramp up the drama/angst. It's just way, *way* past time for them to Find Another Way :)

And yes, it's the writers who create the angst. It's the fans who create the bitterness, and I wish it would be directed solely at the writers and not at other fans with different opinions.

BoxManLocke · May 2, 2018

IMO the reason there are such wild differences in interpretation when it comes to Sam's behavior is years and years of lack of POV combined with the decision to make Sam the Chief Angst-Instigator by making him do or say things that have had a direct effect on his bond with his brother.

The reason I liked Sam's monologue in The Purge was because it opened the door to a serious discussion about the dramatic collateral damage that occured whenever Sam and Dean kept trying to save each other, and why they should avoid doing that in the future. Only that discussion never happened, and all we were left with was Sam saying that he lied, so of course it's going to be interpreted as "lol I was just kidding bro I just felt like watching you stew in your misery for a few months" to some people. Not to mention Sam's actions in season 10 made his speeches in season 9 look extremely hypocritical.

This is just an example but there are numerous occurences where the writers were happy to leave it to interpretation that Sam might just be a gigantic asshole because as far as i'm concerned the last time the character had a fully-fledged character-arc complete with regular POV was in season 4. Since then it's been extremely erratic to completely nonexistent to the point where I myself couldn't even tell what Sam was even supposed to be for this show except pretty background (hello, season 10).

I never felt that for Dean (well, almost). And that's not me saying Dean is favored in place of Sam's POV. I love Dean, and he gets just the right amount of development and there'd be more than enough space to fit Sam's in there if they tried. But somewhere along the way they stopped trying to make him evolve, they stopped giving meaningful justifications for his actions (I'll never get over the glorified panick attack when Dean got zapped to Purgatory, thanks Carver for starting season 8 with a bang). I mean it's really telling that 8 years later the only thing that Sam's got going on as a pseudo character arc is still about Lucifer, for fuck's sake.

Just my two cents as a longtime disgruntled Sam fan. It has never been about Dean being the favorite as far as I'm concerned. They just care enough about the character to offer context and POV when he does stuff. For example since we're still in season 9, everything he did with Gadreel was justified and just it just made sense that Dean as a person would do all that to try to protect his brother. It just doesn't make that much sense for Sam's actions because it's all so inconsistent and unpredictable whenever they use the character.

Edited May 2, 2018 by BoxManLocke

AwesomO4000 · May 2, 2018

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's probably the worst thing Sam could have ever said to him. It's Sam formally telling Dean that he is no longer worth being his brother.

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I truly didn't think Sam cared how Dean was. He was so bitchy about "I'm just being honest". I thought Jared played it snarky. I think he wanted to drive home the point that he didn't consider them brothers and to remind Dean that was how it was going to be. Then he unloaded the Purge stuff.

So what? You want me to say Sam was awful and a monster to poor Dean... okay then fine. I agree it looks bad.. and even by some slim chance Sam didn't mean it that way, he should've known Dean thought he did, so should have mitigated it somehow after he wasn't so angry. This however just increases my bitterness, because in my opinion this should have been a story about how Sam was affected by what happened, but the writers made Sam the jerk and turned him into the bad guy. That entire scene here just seemed so badly written. Either the scene made no sense - on the one hand Sam is asking Dean if he's okay and sounding all ready to gear up for a hunt with him, and then he's all "but just so you know I meant what I said..." which was contradictory and made little sense - or it was thrown in there as a "don't forget Sam's being mean to poor Dean!!!" plot point whether it made sense in there or not.

They writers easily could've made both brothers have a sympathetic point of view. That wasn't going to happen though, because my impression is still that Carver's goal was to turn Sam into the bad brother to teach him a lesson. He wasn't going to let Sam be sympathetic here. Almost every chance the writers had to let Sam be sympathetic or show his point of view... they didn't take it. This was all about Dean... POV and mytharc. Sam was mostly just a catalyst for Dean's desperation and depression, so Sam had to be "mean" to push Dean over the edge. And I don't think (my opinion) the writers really cared how they made Sam look to do that. The Gadreel the misunderstood angel who was a "real friend" really brought that home for me. That and making sure that Sam was a hypocrite in this. What should have been a sympathetic story where Sam was misused and lied to became all about Dean and how he was hurt and desperate enough to take on the mark of Cain. It's one of the reasons I thought Carver sucked as a showrunner. He either didn't know how to balance things for both brothers or he didn't care to try so long as he got to create angst.

Bizarrely that sort of changed in season 10 where we got Sam trying to save Dean, but that was interspersed with the "Sam is even worse than Demon Dean" message they were trying to push, and even Demon Dean's stuff he said - which even if Sam said it didn't, I think it did hurt Sam in my opinion, but that wasn't addressed - and the Charlie incident (which that was pretty hurtful also, because ouch) were sort of glossed over and then oops Sam caused an apocalypse, so I don't know for sure whether I was supposed to be sympathizing with Sam there or not. I'm leaning towards not? Season 10 was confusing.

Thank goodness for season 11 - and I think I have Dabb to thank for that some - because for me that was the best season since season 7, and I finally got some episodes that were unambiguously sympathetic to Sam. It'd been a long time without it, so that was nice. I didn't even mind Sam not having much of the main arc, because at least there wasn't a Sam the bad brother / Sam's worse than a demon vibe.

4 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

This is just an example but there are numerous occurences where the writers were happy to leave it to interpretation that Sam might just be a gigantic asshole because as far as i'm concerned the last time the character had a fully-fledged character-arc complete with regular POV was in season 4.

For me it was season 6 and 7. I thought season 6 and 7 showed Sam's growing appreciation of Dean and him evolving as a character. Sam learned forgiveness - sometimes to a fault, but it all stemmed from his recognizing his own mistakes and appreciating the forgiveness he got and so giving it in return. Sam learned that he liked hunting and the feeling of purpose it gave him and that he liked hunting with Dean. And hSam kept his hopeful attitude despite his mental issues from the hell memories.

It's what makes season 8 all the more disappointing for me, because Carver tore every bit of that character development down and took that all away from Sam while increasing most of the negative characteristics he had. Carver made me dislike a character I formerly loved. I was so glad when he was gone.

6 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Just my two cents as a longtime disgruntled Sam fan. It has never been about Dean being the favorite as far as I'm concerned. They just care enough about the character to offer context and POV when he does stuff. For example since we're still in season 9, everything he did with Gadreel was justified and just it just made sense that Dean as a person would do all that to try to protect his brother. It just doesn't make that much sense for Sam's actions because it's all so erratic and unpredictable whenever they use the character.

I agree. Except that I'm not so sure about Carver. I really did get the impression that Carver did not like Sam and did what he could to screw up his character. I do agree though that even for Carver, Dean wasn't the favorite. I really do think that for Carver Benny and Gadreel - his own original characters - were his favorites, and they got the best redemption storylines.

catrox14 · May 2, 2018

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So what? You want me to say Sam was awful and a monster to poor Dean... okay then fine. I agree it looks bad.. and even by some slim chance Sam didn't mean it that way, he should've known Dean thought he did, so should have mitigated it somehow after he wasn't so angr

I'm not saying you have to say anything about Sam. I'm only telling you how I perceived Sam's words and actions with Dean. I don't think Sam cared if he was hurting Dean because he was hurt himself. I just think there is a difference when a family member that loves another family member straight up says 'You are not my brother'.

I still think they were not intending to make Dean sympathetic. I think they were counting on some viewers being completely on Sam's side and that Dean deserved it so that it would set him up for getting the Mark and for the audience to further distrust Dean especially when he went off with Crowley.

BoxManLocke · May 2, 2018

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me it was season 6 and 7. I thought season 6 and 7 showed Sam's growing appreciation of Dean and him evolving as a character. Sam learned forgiveness - sometimes to a fault, but it all stemmed from his recognizing his own mistakes and appreciating the forgiveness he got and so giving it in return. Sam learned that he liked hunting and the feeling of purpose it gave him and that he liked hunting with Dean. And hSam kept his hopeful attitude despite his mental issues from the hell memories.

The "issue" I had with seasons 6 and 7 was that Sam's place in the mytharc was so prevalent that it didn't leave much space for any POV other than how Sam reacted to his different afflictions - and there were a lot of them back then.

However there were still episodes dedicated to Sam back then that didn't make him look like a douche. It's with season 8 that his actions started to become problematic.

I agree with you about season 11 and Dabb. I talk a lot of crap about the guy but he worked hard to make Sam a real character again in the most basic way : having connections with other characters, having a bigger role in standalone episodes, instances of POV, etc etc.

AwesomO4000 · May 2, 2018

Just now, catrox14 said:

I still think they were not intending to make Dean sympathetic. I think they were counting on some viewers being completely on Sam's side and that Dean deserved it so that it would set him up for getting the Mark and for the audience to further distrust Dean especially when he went off with Crowley.

And I still think that if that was the goal, then the writers would have let Sam mention how he was hurt by Dean's lying in that "The Purge" speech - they didn't. They would've had Sam stick to his convictions about not trying to do something Dean didn't want to save him - they didn't. They wouldn't have marginalized Gadreel's misdeeds - they did. And there would have been consequences besides Kevin being killed (and whose death was also minimized by his saving his mom) and Dean becoming a demon who the writers made sure to push wasn't as bad as Sam in season 10 to show that they thought that Dean's actions were not really wrong.

The writers certainly didn't have any problems with anvils about Sam's lying and how awful it was that he was trying to cure Dean of the mark of Cain behind Dean's back. I lost track of how many characters the writers made sure to have deliver this message... even Dead Bobby got in on the action. So why was Dean's lying pretty much ignored if the writers didn't want me to sympathize? I don't think one character mentioned it besides Sam... and then even Sam failed to mention it when it would've counted. And they certainly didn't skimp on the Sam consequences either.

So I guess that's why I have a hard time buying that the writers weren't trying to show Dean as sympathetic - they had no problem showing Sam as unsympathetic or hitting me with the anvils about Sam's lying or giving Sam awful consequences for his lying. So if they didn't want me to sympathize with Dean, I don't see why they would have been subtle about it. These current writers typically aren't subtle.

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