“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think they have people that one is closer to than the other. I don't think I would put Claire in that category, though.  I probably would Jody, but Dean would also be upset.  

Jody, Donna and Claire are close to both brothers. Most of the characters that they associate with don't seem to have more of a bond with one over the other. Rowena and Jack are the only ones that I can name that are closer to Sam; she's already been killed twice and no way will they kill Jack. AU Charlie and Bobby aren't close to either one of them despite the fact that the brothers associate them with the ones from their world. 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Jody, Donna and Claire are close to both brothers. Most of the characters that they associate with don't seem to have more of a bond with one over the other. Rowena and Jack are the only ones that I can name that are closer to Sam; she's already been killed twice and no way will they kill Jack. AU Charlie and Bobby aren't close to either one of them despite the fact that the brothers associate them with the ones from their world. 

I wouldn't put Rowena closer to SAm, and she's just someone they use anyway.  I doubt they would really care if she died.  I don't think they did the first two times.  It'd be like Crowley dying. Or maybe Gabriel before they retconned it.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't put Rowena closer to SAm, and she's just someone they use anyway.  I doubt they would really care if she died.  I don't think they did the first two times.  It'd be like Crowley dying. Or maybe Gabriel before they retconned it.

I agree that I don't think that Rowena is close to Sam as in they have a friendship. I said closer because she's had more interaction with him than Dean and he's been more ( cordial? is that the right word? ) towards her than Dean has. The only character that I can think of that was more associated with Sam only in the past few seasons would be Eileen. Other than that I got nothing.

[catrox14]

Sam is supposed to kill Rowena according to Billie yet he seems unhappy about that.  And they have the whole "True Face of Lucifer" bonding moment. And he seemed kind of upset that Lucifer killed her in s12 finale.  So I think it would bother Sam quite a bit if Michael!Dean killed her.  JMHO

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam is supposed to kill Rowena according to Billie yet he seems unhappy about that.  And they have the whole "True Face of Lucifer" bonding moment. And he seemed kind of upset that Lucifer killed her in s12 finale.  So I think it would bother Sam quite a bit if Michael!Dean killed her.  JMHO

I think that he would have compassion enough to feel sorry for her death but personally I don't think that he would lose any sleep over it. That's just IMO.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I think that he would have compassion enough to feel sorry for her death but personally I don't think that he would lose any sleep over it. That's just IMO.

I would have agreed with that at the end of s12. But s13 put them on a different bonding path.  I'm not sure he'd lose sleep, which I don't know where that came into it, but depending on how she died and by whom, I think he'd be bothered enough to do something about it. That's all I'm talking about.  I don't know if he would cry or anything but I'm saying it would get to him.

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure he'd lose sleep, which I don't know where that came into it,

Just an expression; it wasn't meant to mean anything beyond my opinion that he wouldn't be too broken up by her death. 

[ILoveReading]

All I know is that if they take Deans' trauma and make it all about Sam I'm going to be very annoyed. 

[Res]

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

All I know is that if they take Deans' trauma and make it all about Sam I'm going to be very annoyed. 

Same here but I won't be surprised at all.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

All I know is that if they take Deans' trauma and make it all about Sam I'm going to be very annoyed. 

At this point I'm more annoyed with myself for letting them get my hopes up. Dabb is a sly bastard when it come to being careful what you wish for. 

[Res]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At this point I'm more annoyed with myself for letting them get my hopes up. Dabb is a sly bastard when it come to being careful what you wish for. 

IMO it's not that he's that sly. I really don't think he cares enough to try to be sly. I think it's more that we just keep hoping against hope that he will actually give a crap about Dean as a character to actually do something with him other than comic relief or being a chauffeur/cheerleader.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Spoiler

 

Two episodes.  I knew Dabb and co. were lazy. 

It sounds like its Dabb's excuse to focus on every character not named Dean.  After all somehow Dean's non-presence in most of the last two seasons somehow prevented Cas from bonding with Jack, and Mary from shacking up with Bobby.

Dean's gone what 3 weeks and his so-called family is already looking for 'breathing room"

 

 

Dabb is going to have his spinoff if he has to use spn to shove it down our throats. This is a convenient,  lazy excuse. Why write for boring old Dean when we have these exciting fan favs to concentrate on! 

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Spoiler

LOL so the only way they can write other characters is to sideline Dean?  My gods. There are no words for how hilariously bad that makes the writers look, or its confirmation that they cannot allow Dean to have something with anyone other than Sam or Cas, under Dabb and Singer's regime.  WTF lol

 

IMO it's all the affirmation I need of my opinion that Dabb as showrunner is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean Winchester. There really aren't words for how much I despise him.

Edited September 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Res]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb is going to have his spinoff if he has to use spn to shove it down our throats. This is a convenient,  lazy excuse. Why write for boring old Dean when we have these exciting fan favs to concentrate on! 

IMO it's all the affirmation I need of my opinion that Dabb as showrunner is the worst thing that ever happened to Dean Winchester. There really aren't words for how much I despise him.

Right there with you X 10000000000!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Bitter Spoilers" thread. Spoilers spoiler tagged:

56 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Dabb doesn't seem to realize--

Spoiler

if Sam is indeed giving up after only a short amount of time

--how bad this makes Sam look, especially after the infamous Incident of the Injured Dog.

The writers generally don't consider how anything makes Sam look, in my opinion, unless it's to make him look badly. Often lately (post season 7), no matter what Sam seems to do, he's made to look badly. He doesn't look for Dean - like in season 8 - he's made to look badly ("Sam hit a dog" and Sam didn't bother to look for Kevin, either, just in case you were wondering if what he did was bad.) He does look for Dean - like in season 10 - he's made to look badly (Sam did such shady things, maybe he's more of a monster than Demon Dean, and in case you were wondering, we'll have a few characters point this out to make sure you don't miss it).

For me this is just more of the same, except I don't think it's an accident. I think it's an on purpose and that they do realize... which is why they often hang a lampshade on it. (Like Kevin's "Eeeeat me!" and "Sam hit a dog" and all of the "who's the real monster" cracks... and God/Chuck's comments.)

I expect more of the same here.

[ILoveReading]

I've always felt that the main reason  Sam looked  for Dean in s10 out of a misplaced since of guilt since he said wouldn't save him.  Sam certainly didn't seem to have much faith in Dean.  His disdain for Dean seemed to be dialed up to an eleven this season. 

Spoiler

This does match the spoiler of Sam being pessimistic about saving Dean.  He doesn't seem to think Dean is strong enough to fight Michael.

  In Halt and Catch fire Dean tells Sam hes going to fight the mark by trying to help people (his peace) and Sam immediately interprets that as giving up.   Its something he repeated many times.  Dean's giving up, Dean's getting worse, etc, except Dean really wasn't showing more violence than Sam or Cas was at that time. 

Sam willingly participated in human sacrifice.  Maybe it wasn't Dean that was out of control. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

In Halt and Catch fire Dean tells Sam hes going to fight the mark by trying to help people (his peace) and Sam immediately interprets that as giving up.   Its something he repeated many times.  Dean's giving up, Dean's getting worse, etc, except Dean really wasn't showing more violence than Sam or Cas was at that time. 

Actually Sam didn't say anything after Dean told Sam his final "plan" in "Halt and Catch Fire." The reason Sam asked Dean if he was "giving up" is because of this:

From: SuperWiki:

Quote

Dean: My peace is helping people. Working cases. That’s all I want to do.
Sam: Is this about the Mark?
Dean: I’m done trying to find a cure, Sammy.
Sam: Dean, Cas is so close.
Dean: To what? We don’t even know if there is a cure. So far, we’ve got nothing. We have found nothing at the Men of Letters library. Metatron may or may not know something. And maybe Cas is on to something with Cain.
Sam: Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Nothing is guaranteed, Dean. So what? We can’t just stop fighting.
Dean: Yes, we can.
Sam: So, this is it? Y-you’re just gonna – you’re just gonna give up.

Yes, Dean had mentioned hunting in terms of finding "peace" but not really as a way to fight the mark. It was the awkward way the dialogue was written, with Sam saying they couldn't stop fighting and Dean saying "yes, we can," when Dean should've said "that is how I'll be fighting." That would've made much more sense.

There were also several times in season 10 where Sam seemed to genuinely think that Dean could fight the mark and told Dean that he had faith in him. "About a Boy" was one of those times, but there were others as well. as things got worse - or plot dictated - yes Sam sometimes wavered, but I, myself, think it's only human to have doubts sometimes, so I'm okay with Sam having some doubts, too.

For me, it's not much different than Dean having doubts about Sam in season 5 - even after Sam was able to resist the demon blood power in "My Bloody Valentine" - and thinking that he would say "yes" to Lucifer. Unless you are saying that it's okay for Dean to have doubts about Sam's ability to fight dark powers, but not the other way around. Sam of all people knows how difficult it is to fight a dark power inside oneself, so if he sometimes had a few worries that Dean wouldn't be able to fight such a force, I personally don't see that as Sam having disdain for Dean or even a general lack of faith. I find it as very human and understandable.  Just as it was when Dean had doubts about Sam in "Point of No Return." Obviously miles vary here.

I'm also not seeing the "disdain" last season that you do.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam willingly participated in human sacrifice.  Maybe it wasn't Dean that was out of control. 

As far as I know, Sam didn't know about having to kill Oscar as part of the spell to remove the mark, so unless there's something else that I have forgotten - which is possible - I'm not sure what  you are talking about here.

Edited September 5, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually Sam didn't say anything after Dean told Sam his final "plan" in "Halt and Catch Fire." The reason Sam asked Dean if he was "giving up" is because of this:

When Sam says your giving up Dean immediately responds with:

Quote

DEAN

No. No, I’m not just gonna give up. I appreciate the effort, okay? I do. But the answer is not out there. It’s with me. I need to be the one calling the shots here, okay? I can’t keep waking up every morning with this false hope. I got to know where I stand. Otherwise, I’m gonna lose my freakin’ mind. So I’m gonna fight it til I can’t fight it anymore. And when all is said and done… I’ll go down swinging.

 

He clearly says he intends to fight with all he has.  He just didn't want to do it the way Sam felt he should, so Sam decided that Dean had given up.   Actions speak louder than words. Behind Dean's back he clearly felt Dean had given up.  He even says these words. It how he recruits charlie

The problem was the tell didn't match the show.  Sam or Cas said Dean was getting worse but he really wasn't.  Not even after Cain.  That should have been a major turning point, but after that we get Dean fighting for Cole, and not killing the college kids.  Now this is a major failure on the writers part because they forgot to actually show Dean getting worse, but it very much comes across as Sam having little faith in Dean.  Talk is cheap.

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, it's not much different than Dean having doubts about Sam in season 5 - even after Sam was able to resist the demon blood power in "My Bloody Valentine" - and thinking that he would say "yes" to Lucifer. Unless you are saying that it's okay for Dean to have doubts about Sam's ability to fight dark powers, but not the other way around. Sam of all people knows how difficult it is to fight a dark power inside oneself, so if he sometimes had a few worries that Dean wouldn't be able to fight such a force, I personally don't see that as Sam having disdain for Dean or even a general lack of faith. I find it as very human and understandable.  Just as it was when Dean had doubts about Sam in "Point of No Return." Obviously miles vary here.

Yes, Dean had doubts but when he did, the narrative usually comes up with a very special episode on why Dean is wrong not to trust Sam or lose faith in him.  Sam didn't get a boo hoo princess speech after he lost faith in Dean in s10.  Sam lies to Dean for a year and the resloution is Fallen Idols where Dean apologizes for losing trust in Sam.  Then Point of no Return where Dean apologizes again.  Then there was whole "Dean needs to learn to love Sam more." Swan Song where once again Dean apologized to Sam for doubting him.

I would have no problem if Sam's faith wavered.  It didn't actually.  It was no existent after Executioners Song.  I have a problem when Dean loses faith in Sam is some kind of failure on Deans' part.  But when its Sam its justified.  its the double standards in the writing I don't like. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I would have no problem if Sam's faith wavered.  It didn't actually.  It was no existent after Executioners Song.

Which was 25 episodes after Dean got the mark and after Sam had seen Dean turn into a demon. I could argue that Dean's faith didn't waiver much either in that he didn't have any faith in Sam with dark powers either. Dean was against Sam using his exorcism powers from day one - and was initially justified in doing so when Sam raised Lucifer. And the narrative framed it as bad from early on, even when Sam was saving people.

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then there was whole "Dean needs to learn to love Sam more." Swan Song ...

I didn't see this message in "Swan Song," so our miles vary here.

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I have a problem when Dean loses faith in Sam is some kind of failure on Deans' part.  But when its Sam its justified.  its the double standards in the writing I don't like. 

Dean's lack of faith in Sam was justified when Sam raised Lucifer. If that hadn't happened, and Sam and Ruby had saved the world instead, then I would say that Dean's lack of faith was being shown as a failure. It was actually every one else not listening to Dean or not listening to him soon enough who were shown to be the failures in my opinion... even Bobby who seriously considered using his supposed adopted son as a nuclear bomb, even if that meant he'd turn into a monster in the process.

As for the apologies... This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I sometimes think Dean's apologies are partially calculated to get what he wants. He doesn't always mean them... and Dean even says as much in a more recent episode. So when Dean apologizes, I don't always take that as the narrative meaning he's wrong, because sometimes later on, it's shown that whatever Dean apologized for, he really didn't think that and still thought that he was right. So for me, I see Dean's apologies differently than you do, because I sometimes see them as a means to an end for Dean - as a calculated tactic rather than a real apology. And for me, the narrative often bears that out in what happens and what Dean says later on.

And I don't remember Sam being justified by the writing at all in season 10. In fact, Sam started an apocalypse because he removed the mark. Even God himself said that it was Sam's not leaving things alone that caused the problems, not Dean, thereby cementing that Sam not having faith in Dean was a failure, and one of apocalyptic proportions.

I think the narrative wasn't showing any double standards in terms of the message at all. When both brothers didn't show faith in the other, it was generally framed as something negative in the end. The narrative just sometimes shows that differently - and usually with greater consequences - for Sam.

[ILoveReading]

59 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Which was 25 episodes after Dean got the mark and after Sam had seen Dean turn into a demon

But demon Dean wasn't a threat.  He was an asshat and a total dick.  He was killing demons and a one guy who put a contract out on his wife.   An argument can made that Sam was the more dangerous one here. 

Plus, after Executioners Song, Dean actions really did nothing to merit Sam thinking Dean had given up or was getting worse.  Sam was the one that wanted to kill Cole.  Thinking Dean is weak isn't new for Sam.  It's thoughts and feelings he's had since s1.   It was Sam going by his perception of Dean's character rather than Deans' actions.  Which is something Sam does time and again.    For all Sam's words about how he looks up to Dean, does he really?  I mean when Dean said stop going with Ruby, Sam ran to Ruby.  When Dean said it wasn't God, Sam ignored him.  When Sam said he wouldn't' judge Dean over the Amara stuff  when it came time to back it up he sat there in silence.  When Dean expressed he was too weak, Sam certainly didn't try to change him mind.  The next ep he got pissy when Dean asked him to stay back, reminding Dean that Dean said he had to take care of it. 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I could argue that Dean's faith didn't waiver much either in that he didn't have any faith in Sam with dark powers either. Dean was against Sam using his exorcism powers from day one - and was initially justified in doing so when Sam raised Lucifer. And the narrative framed it as bad from early on, even when Sam was saving people.

When Dean was worried about Sam's powers he was worried about Sam going darkside but he still had faith in Sam himself.  Yes, part of it was his brainwashing to always put Sam first, but it wasn't until Sam started going darkside that Dean completely lost faith.   He was judging Sam's actions rather than his character and Dean had more than enough evidence to lose faith in Sam.   I disagree the narrative said Sam using his powers was a bad things.  Because when Dean objected he said "use the knife."  Sam replied that he was saving people.   They gave Dean a strawman's argument and ignored exorcisms.  So I would say that dialogue very much favored Sam.  In the end, they made Dean sit and watch Sam drain several bodies and drink demon blood because ultimately  Ruby was trying to prepare him for Lucifer.  (Although why Sam would want to make his vessel stronger makes no sense because it would be easier to gain control if Lucifer had to expend more energy to keep the vessel from imploding.  What General would give his enemy his greatest weapon and the fuel to make it stronger.).  All of which says to me that the narrative was on Sam's side. 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't see this message in "Swan Song," so our miles vary here.

This was a direct quote from Kripke.  He said Dean's purpose in Swan Song was to learn to love Sam more and that in s1 Dean would never have shown up at the graveyard.  Yet another reason I despise that ep.

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If that hadn't happened, and Sam and Ruby had saved the world instead,

This is exactly what happened with the whole, Lucifer needs demon blood retcon. 

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the apologies... This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I sometimes think Dean's apologies are partially calculated to get what he wants. He doesn't always mean them... and Dean even says as much in a more recent episode. So when Dean apologizes, I don't always take that as the narrative meaning he's wrong, because sometimes later on, it's shown that whatever Dean apologized for, he really didn't think that and still thought that he was right. So for me, I see Dean's apologies differently than you do, because I sometimes see them as a means to an end for Dean - as a calculated tactic rather than a real apology. And for me, the narrative often bears that out in what happens and what Dean says later on.

This is exactly how I feel about Sam's.  His apologies come across as "its only my fault because you made me do it in the first place."  I tend to get the feeling, Sam's not really sorry.  It comes across to me that for Sam the fault lies not in the action but that other people didn't accept  his actions. 

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In fact, Sam started an apocalypse because he removed the mark.

The show ignored this.  there was one throw away line with Dean letting him off the hook with the lock and key remark.  Nothing Sam did specifically was ever brought up.  Sam even got the "we need to stop saving each other and save everyone lecture. "  While Dean was shown only wanting to save the baby.  This IMO, is the definition of forced writing.   This show was never about saving anyone.  As for as Dean knew there were no cure to the plague.   Sam even got to come up with a cure for a biblical plague while Dean was literally reduced to babysitter.    Then we got  a very special episode of being told just how brave and strong and special Sam was. 

 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When both brothers didn't show faith in the other, it was generally framed as something negative in the end. The narrative just sometimes shows that differently - and usually with greater consequences - for Sam.

I generaly dont see many negative consequences for Sam.  Because when he does something to Dean its 9 times out of 10 its swept under the rug.  Where as Dean's transgression tend to be brought up repeatedly.

I care more about the words and actions of the characters than the consequences.  I find Sam tends to get an endless supply of get out  of jail free cards were Dean get the go to jail immediately ones.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is exactly how I feel about Sam's.  His apologies come across as "its only my fault because you made me do it in the first place."  I tend to get the feeling, Sam's not really sorry.  It comes across to me that for Sam the fault lies not in the action but that other people didn't accept  his actions. 

So. so, so much word to this! I would love for the narrative to have Sam call himself a dick as many times as Dean has had to. 

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I generaly dont see many negative consequences for Sam.  Because when he does something to Dean its 9 times out of 10 its swept under the rug.  Where as Dean's transgression tend to be brought up repeatedly.

And this. I totally agree with this.

Edited September 6, 2018 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

I liked Sam a lot more in the beginning of the series, and I got hooked on the series because I so enjoyed the brotherly dynamic (and occasionally still do). But I can honestly say I never thought even one of Sam's apologies was truly sincere and without a 'but', whether spoken aloud or inferred. He was sorry because he got caught, or because someone didn't like him for what he did, or because someone/something (too often, Dean) made him do it. That is my perception anyway.

ETA: I would add one exception here. The broken 'I'm sorry' at the end of Lucifer Rising, when he realizes how completely Ruby played him and how badly he fucked up, and how huge the consequences. In that moment, I believed him.

Edited September 6, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I liked Sam a lot more in the beginning of the series, and I got hooked on the series because I so enjoyed the brotherly dynamic (and occasionally still do).

This is a part of the reason why I love season 2 so much ( and much of season 3 ). Their relationship felt more genuine and while they didn't always agree with each others methods or attitudes I could buy that they liked being around each other and were friends as well as brothers. These days it's harder to sell IMO. I've always largely preferred Dean but in the earlier seasons I had more of a fondness for Sam than I do now.

Edited September 6, 2018 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm also on board with @ILoveReading and others who feel that Dean's S10 slow fall to the Mark's effect was all tell and no show. Not because of Jensen's performance (because he was freaking awesome) but due to the crap writing. I don't know how many times I heard some version of 'zomg!! Dean is losing it man!!' from Sam or Cas and I would be scratching my head and wondering wtf I missed. He was trying his ass off not to succumb, and we learned in Paint it Black that he didn't want to die and that he wanted the kinds of things other 'normal' men wanted. Not until he found out about Sam not burning the Book of the Damned and Charlie's subsequent death did the writing for Dean match the writing for Sam & Cas.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

But demon Dean wasn't a threat.  He was an asshat and a total dick.  He was killing demons and a one guy who put a contract out on his wife.   An argument can made that Sam was the more dangerous one here. 

No, Demon Dean wasn't a threat - which the narrative made sure to point out, meaning no world-shattering consequences for Dean taking the mark (which is what I mean by Sam's consequences being greater than Dean's). I wasn't talking about consequences. I was talking about effect. Sam seeing Dean as a demon - something he knew regular Dean would be horrified by - hurt Sam. He didn't want Dean to have to be that again. Part of the reason Sam was trying to get rid of the mark was so that Dean wouldn't have to become a demon again. And yes, I agree an argument can be made that Sam was the more dangerous one... part of the narrative's Sam gets shown as bad no matter what he does thing they started in season 8 that I mentioned above.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This was a direct quote from Kripke.  He said Dean's purpose in Swan Song was to learn to love Sam more and that in s1 Dean would never have shown up at the graveyard. 

I only go by what I see in the actual episodes. I learned long ago that writers lie about what's in their shows. I only believe what I see onscreen.

Quote

For all Sam's words about how he looks up to Dean, does he really?

In my opinion, yes he does. Otherwise he wouldn't follow him or trust him on hunts. Or believe Dean would come kick Lucifer's ass. Considering what Lucifer did to Sam and how powerful Lucifer is, in my opinion, Sam believing that Dean would come and kick Lucifer's ass is pretty high praise and respect. And, yes, Sam meant it and believed it. Sam had no reason to lie, since Lucifer would know if he was lying.

Quote

When Sam said he wouldn't' judge Dean over the Amara stuff  when it came time to back it up he sat there in silence. When Dean expressed he was too weak, Sam certainly didn't try to change him mind.  The next ep he got pissy when Dean asked him to stay back, reminding Dean that Dean said he had to take care of it. 

Because it was God! Dean may be able to stand up to Chuck, but Sam has generally had faith in God and holds him in respect. I remember Sam being reduced to basically a babbling idiot while trying to talk with Chuck. So then he's supposed to criticize him? Besides, having Sam say something would ruin the usual "everyone discounts Dean but he comes back and shows himself as the real hero" narrative that the show loves to use time and again.

The other thing I don't remember, so I'll have to take your word for it that that's what happened.

I'm not sure exactly what Sam is supposed to do. It seems no matter what Sam does, he's slammed for it.

Quote

I disagree the narrative said Sam using his powers was a bad things.  Because when Dean objected he said "use the knife."  Sam replied that he was saving people. 

And then proceeded to kill people to drink their blood. Killing Alastair was framed as bad also. As was the sneaking around and lying... all related to using his powers and all framed as bad.

Quote

In the end, they made Dean sit and watch Sam drain several bodies and drink demon blood because ultimately  Ruby was trying to prepare him for Lucifer.  (Although why Sam would want to make his vessel stronger makes no sense because it would be easier to gain control if Lucifer had to expend more energy to keep the vessel from imploding.  What General would give his enemy his greatest weapon and the fuel to make it stronger.). All of which says to me that the narrative was on Sam's side. 

What? I don't understand any of this. So the narrative saying that preparing Sam to be stronger for Lucifer so Lucifer could be more powerful and more easily destroy the world was supposedly a good thing?

The reason why Sam had to drink the blood was because otherwise - according to Castiel - Sam would explode almost immediately, and if Sam exploded, he wouldn't be able to jump into the cage with Lucifer... because he would be exploded, and Lucifer would just go off and find - or resurrect - a new host (like maybe Jake) or jump back into Nick and know not to get near Dean and the key to open the cage.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is exactly what happened with the whole, Lucifer needs demon blood retcon.

In my opinion, what happened was that drinking the demon blood helped Sam say "yes" when he shouldn't have. It was Dean  - or if you want to discount Dean (I don't), Baby - who turned the tide and made it possible for the world to be saved. No Dean or Baby in the cemetery, no Sam and the demon blood doing anything except maybe helping to destroy the world if Michael couldn't defeat him. Sorry, I just don't understand the "it was the demon blood that saved the world" argument at all. The world was saved in spite of the demon blood, not because of it. I thought the narrative made that pretty clear, myself.

Quote

The show ignored this.  there was one throw away line with Dean letting him off the hook with the lock and key remark.  Nothing Sam did specifically was ever brought up. 

Actually yes, it was... God himself said exactly that the whole thing was Sam's fault because he wouldn't let Dean stay a demon. They didn't "ignore it" they put a big lampshade on it by having God mention it. And then when God spoke with Sam and Dean later in the next episode, he made sure to tell Sam that it was his fault. And if I remember correctly, Lucifer previously  also mentioned that it was Sam's fault that the darkness happened, and that it was Sam's weakness that caused it, and proceeded to show him exactly how it was he got weak, and oh look, it was "Sam hit a dog" again, as if the show hadn't trotted that one out enough already. And that it was Sam's guilt that lead to him causing Amara.

I would call that a lot of attention given to the subject myself.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I generaly dont see many negative consequences for Sam.  Because when he does something to Dean its 9 times out of 10 its swept under the rug.  Where as Dean's transgression tend to be brought up repeatedly.

I care more about the words and actions of the characters than the consequences.  I find Sam tends to get an endless supply of get out  of jail free cards were Dean get the go to jail immediately ones.

I'm not being insincere here when I'm asking what transgressions of Sam's against Dean were swept under the rug?*** Everyone and his brother talked about Sam's bad choices concerning Ruby, Gabriel even referring to it as a betrayal via his Michael / Lucifer parallel. No one that I remember gave Sam a complete pass for that, and it was being mentioned by multiple characters for 4+ seasons afterwards. With not looking for Dean, even Crowley got in a "Sam hit a dog" dig. Bobby slammed him for it too. Bobby also slammed Sam for lying about the Book of the Damned. Charlie said it was bad also. And then God slammed Sam for doing it. And these are all "words" in addition to the consequences that the show already shows for Sam's misdeeds against Dean.

I think way too much emphasis is put onto the "boo hoo" conversation. For me, that conversation showed that Bobby, too, was wrong. In the end, it was only Dean who was right and overcame everyone's dismissal to be the hero who tried to do the right thing, but failed because everyone else - literally every other character - was wrong. It always amazes me how other fans see that episode and can think anyone else besides Dean was being shown in anything but a bad light. To me, it was so obvious.

The only transgression of Dean's against Sam that I remember being brought up more than once was the text message... and that was brought up mainly by Dean. Gadreel was brought up more than once by Sam, but not by anyone else that I remember, and then swept under the rug through Gadreel being retconned as a "misunderstood." Similar with Amy Pond. That one was taken care of by having Sam agree with Dean and the lying swept under the rug with "well, you were crazy, so that's why I lied to you." When Sam brought it up again later, it was made to look petty and Sam made to look worse concerning poor, innocent Benny. The deal was brought up once by Sam, and once by Dean, but not again. Even in reference to the first seal breaking, it wasn't mentioned how this brought Sam back into play that I recall. There was the "did Sam come back wrong" thing, but that went nowhere and was only there for a red herring, not in reference to what being brought back - likely being taken out of heaven - did to Sam. Generally Dean's misdeeds against Sam are painted as being done for Sam's own good, and the only one who objects is Sam... who is later proven wrong to have had that opinion in one way or another... almost every time.

*** The only thing I can think of where Sam got a pass on doing something to Dean was the Benny incident. So that one thing, yes, I guess you can say that Sam "got a pass," but considering the cost to his character, I personally wouldn't exactly call that worth it.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There was the "did Sam come back wrong" thing, but that went nowhere and was only there for a red herring, not in reference to what being brought back - likely being taken out of heaven - did to Sam.

I've seen this so many times, most often in anti-Dean fanfic, but I just don't buy it. There was no indication at all that Sam was in heaven for the time he was dead. He himself said he didn't remember anything after being stabbed. Ash referred to their dying 'more than anyone I’ve ever met', but Ash had only been dead a matter of days (if that) when Sam died, so I doubt he was doing his roadhouse heaven thing already. Dean's deal had lots of things wrong with it, but I don't think ripping Sam away from his eternal happiness in Heaven is one of them. And even if it was, as Ash said, God must've wiped their memories, and they both thought Memorex heaven kind of sucked, so it wouldn't exactly have been a big loss.

Edited September 6, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was no indication at all that Sam was in heaven for the time he was dead.

True, sorry about that. I've not seen that kind of fanfic, so I didn't realize that this sounded as bad as I now see it does. So yeah, that was uncalled for on my part... my bad.

I did see one fanfic, though, where Sam was a ghost. It started out well, but ended up blaming Sam for Dean making the deal because Sam hanging around Dean after he died made Dean more depressed (like the Mom in "Death Takes a Holiday"), so Dean was driven to make the deal. After seeing that fic, I tend to not want to think of Sam as being a ghost, because that fic ended up pissing me off.

And I know Sam doesn't remember what happened after he died, so my point wasn't that Sam had a Buffy ripped out of heaven thing. My point was that Sam was "out." Even if he was in nothingness, he was done and didn't have to worry about the YED or his dark destiny, (later on Lilith) or any of that. When Dean brought Sam back, not only did Sam have to worry about all of that again, he also had to think about Dean potentially being in hell suffering for all eternity because of him (Sam).

Actually next to that, being taken out of Memorex heaven is secondary. I even understand why Dean did it and entirely sympathize, but the narrative doesn't always make exceptions for that - I sympathized with Sam in season 10, too, for example, but the narrative didn't make an exception for Sam there. He still got slammed with causing an apocalypse and God blaming him for it. So my main point was that dead, Sam had nothing more to worry about - unless he was in hell, but I can't imagine why he would be in hell - but after the deal, he had all of those things to worry about again, but the narrative never really addressed that at all. It was painted as Dean doing it for Sam's own good and then bad brother Sam going against Dean's dying wish and being a jerk for doing so.

It was an example of a transgression against Sam - unintended, absolutely, but a transgression nonetheless - by Dean that was not brought up repeatedly and was more swept under the rug.

Edited September 6, 2018 by AwesomO4000
Lilith came later on

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: I would add one exception here. The broken 'I'm sorry' at the end of Lucifer Rising, when he realizes how completely Ruby played him and how badly he fucked up, and how huge the consequences. In that moment, I believed him.

Maybe a few more?? Not to try to change your general opinion or anything, because I entirely understand why you and others see things that way - the writing of Sam's apologies often leaves a lot to be desired... but two of my favorite Sam apologies were the one in the "Pilot" where he apologized for saying that Mary was dead and wasn't coming back - I thought he meant that one sincerely, and that's why it got the "no chick flick moments" response - and the "Something Wicked" one where Sam apologized for not realizing why Dean followed John's orders.

I especially liked that second one, because I thought it showed good growth for Sam and that he was truly trying to understand and connect with Dean again. And he didn't have to bring it up again, so he went out of his way to apologize on that one. Those were both in season 1 though, so yeah, do more fall into the early years you were mentioning.

My favorite later season one was in season 6B - where I tended to enjoy the brother interaction pretty well again (until season 8... *sigh*) - where Sam apologized for what he'd done to Dean when he was soulless. The entire thing for me was so them: from Sam being sorry to Dean having wanted to protect Sam from what he did while soulless... and even Dean figuring out that Castiel had been talked into spilling the beans by Sam. I smile every time, thinking "you should've known better Dean... poor Castiel is just too accommodating and no match for Sam when he wants information."

And I also want to add that I don't think all of Dean's apologies are insincere either. I don't even think some of the ones that have what I might see as ulterior motives are entirely insincere... maybe a mixture of sincere and ulterior motive. Or that Dean even realizes he's doing it some of the time when he does... more of a later on thing with Dean thinking "wait a minute. Why did I apologize for that? I mean, yeah, I wanted to smooth things over and hurry on to the getting past this stuff, but I was not really wrong there, dammit." ... And I suspect that as with a lot of things, John might likely be a factor here.

I suspect that Dean had to do a LOT of apologizing to John while they were working together even when in reality it was more likely John's fault. But Dean apologizing was probably the fastest way to smooth things over and put it behind them, so Dean apologized and fed John's ego. And Dean learned that this was the fastest way for John to "appreciate" him when they disagreed. That's my perception anyway. In my opinion, John messed Dean up in so many ways, I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't another one.

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I suspect that Dean had to do a LOT of apologizing to John while they were working together even when in reality it was more likely John's fault. But Dean apologizing was probably the fastest way to smooth things over and put it behind them, so Dean apologized and fed John's ego. And Dean learned that this was the fastest way for John to "appreciate" him when they disagreed. That's my perception anyway. In my opinion, John messed Dean up in so many ways, I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't another one.

IMO, it started this way and continued/continues on now with Sam and also Mary, at times. That Dean, in some of these latter seasons has had moments when he realizes that he's apologized when he shouldn't have-and this mainly because he felt that he was not wrong to have done or said whatever-those times are like a breathe of fresh air to me-and that's what I would call growth for Dean. That little nugget in the one episode when Chuck and Lucifer were fighting, especially and also the Gadreel situation.

And that doesn't negate his genuine apologies for me either, of which include every one he was forced to make in S5-I only saw him questioning those retroactively, if that-and maybe even some(many) of the others post that season. And again, I say good for him if that was the case.

As for the Gadreel situation, to borrow a phrase from Gonzosgirl-I will eat my hat if he doesn't wind up apologizing to Sam retroactively for the Gadreel possession after being possessed by Michael because I still think that the Mean storyline only saw the light of day so that they could "fix" that for the Sam fans who have been screaming for it since it happened and this while the worst of the Purge speech remains unremarked on by Sam, just as the worst of what was said by Sam in in S4 and within the Benny storyline remains unremarked on by Sam also.

Sorry, but to me Sam usually comes out smelling like a rose at the end of things-no matter what he does, while Dean still just gets to call himself a dick. They are both basic premises on this show at this point in time, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

still think that the Mean storyline only saw the light of day so that they could "fix" that for the Sam fans who have been screaming for it since it happened and this while the worst of the Purge speech remains unremarked on by Sam, just as the worst of what was said by Sam in in S4 and within the Benny storyline remains unremarked on by Sam also.

Agree.  I also think it was extra incentive for Jensen to sign on the dotted line.  Lets hope he signed a one year contract or it will be 12B on steroids. 

This part of my post is not a direct response to anyone.  Just didn't want to make two separate posts. 

Spoiler

When Dabb made that breathing room comment, I really think what he meant was that Jensen is such a dominate presence on screen things he intends don't go his way.  With Dean (but he really mean Jensen but couldn't say that) not there, his pet side storylines won't have Jensen, or Dean there to take the focus away.   But if it goes the way I think it will because Dabb doesn't care about Dean, then I think he'll be wrong again. Or at least I hope so.

I think the primary relationship last season was supposed to be Jack, Sam and Cas but yet Jensen's presence made the Dean/Jack the most talked about one.  (going by the sites I was reading).  IMO, that became the dominate one even if it wasn't supposed too.  It was Dean, Jack looked to for advice and approval despite everything. 

Spoiler

I feel like its the same this leader Sam stuff.  Dabb's been pushing it but Jensen is the better actor.  He tends to have a dominate presence on screen so its still coming across as Dean being the leader, despite Dabb's best efforts.   Write out Dean, or better yet, Jensen and Dabb gets what he wants.  Then when Dean comes back, I'm sure he's going to apologize once again for treating Sam like a kid and tell Sam what a great leader he is and how sorry he is for holding Sam back all these years.  Then follow meekly along behind Sam.  (again hoping for 1 year contract).

Sam with Mary and Bobby.  Dabb figures if he has Mary say "we can save Dean" she can make all the goo goo eyes she wants at Bobby, and it won't come across as "What about her sons."  Since Dabb has Sam on a pedestal Sam will be perfectly sympathetic and understanding of everything Mary does and offer nothing but support.  But what he's not factoring in is making the tell match the show.   Or Dean's presence in his absence.  "Mary can shout "we have to save Dean:" until she's blue in the face but If the majority of the scenes of Mary and Bobby are of them dating and talking about their own lives, its going to look like lip service. 

Same with Jack and Cas.  Without Dean/Jensen he can really push the Cas/Jack/Sam stuff. 

 

 

 

I'm really dreading the aftermath because of this.

[Pondlass1]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I also think it was extra incentive for Jensen to sign on the dotted line.

What I'm about to say should probably be in the Horrible Opinions thread, but I'm wondering in his heart of hearts if Jensen isn't seriously considering moving on.  Similar to Mark S, he must recognise his storylines are not going anywhere or making any impact on the overall arc - Dean/Micheal will likely be over and forgotten by Christmas.  Dean/Michael doesn't fit with MOTW format and apparently it's taxing to write a story without Dean.

He's voice his opinions about the shortened Demon Dean  SL several times and then there's the marionette farce.  He says these things out loud in front of crowds of fans.  So he feels secure and there's not been any backlash from TPTB as far as we know.  He's also mentioned his keen desire to portray some sort of action hero (or big bad) in a film or bigger network than the CW.

It's fun and friendly on the Supernatural set but I think he's ready to move on.  Hope he only signs one-year contracts.

He's given us the iconic Dean Winchester but the character is being slowly devalued by Dabb & Co.

Move on up, Jensen.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

What I'm about to say should probably be in the Horrible Opinions thread, but I'm wondering in his heart of hearts if Jensen isn't seriously considering moving on.  Similar to Mark S, he must recognise his storylines are not going anywhere or making any impact on the overall arc - Dean/Micheal will likely be over and forgotten by Christmas.  Dean/Michael doesn't fit with MOTW format and apparently it's taxing to write a story without Dean.

Im hoping it does help him decide to move on, but I think for Jensen the off screen benefits out weigh what's happening on screen.   That's why I said 'extra incentive."   He loves the cast and crew like family.  He can negotiate perks into his contract, like having ACL weekends off.  He has the closest thing to job security you can get in Hollywood.   That has to be hard to give up no matter what's happening on screen.  

It sucks for this Dean fan becuase its hard to watch Dean being stripped of all his layers and being turned into a caricature. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

The job is a dream to be sure.  And now only 20 episodes.  They'll be done by end of February I'd guess.   Maybe he'll find a project during the 4 month hiatus?

I don't really want Supernatural to end.  What will I do with myself?  But I have this sneaky feeling the thrill is slipping away and being replaced by a thirst for challenge and change,

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I know Sam doesn't remember what happened after he died, so my point wasn't that Sam had a Buffy ripped out of heaven thing. My point was that Sam was "out." Even if he was in nothingness, he was done and didn't have to worry about the YED or his dark destiny, (later on Lilith) or any of that. When Dean brought Sam back, not only did Sam have to worry about all of that again, he also had to think about Dean potentially being in hell suffering for all eternity because of him (Sam).

First, I have to say it again. We don't agree on most things B v J, but I always admire your considered responses and stalwart defense of your boy. :)

I don't think Sam was ever 'out'. I'm not saying it was a consideration for Dean in deciding to make his deal, but *we* know that Sam was never going to be out, not even by dying. Yeah, Team Hell (Azazel, Lucifer, whoever was doing the resurrecting for team Demons) let Sam 'die' at Jake's hand. But we found out later that they wanted Boy King Sam, no matter what kind of machinations went down to get them to that point. My understanding is that original S3 was supposed to see Sam go dark to save Dean. Then came S4/5 and the angels plot, which suggests that they needed Dean, the righteous man, in Hell one way or the other, and that Team Lucifer was going to keep Sam alive no matter what, despite their empty threats to end him on the regular. They didn't know it, but we did. So Dean didn't see Sam as being out, he only saw him as being dead. Given his indoctrination as Sam's guardian and savior, and knowing there was a way to save him, there really wasn't any choice for him. IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe a few more?? Not to try to change your general opinion or anything, because I entirely understand why you and others see things that way - the writing of Sam's apologies often leaves a lot to be desired... but two of my favorite Sam apologies were the one in the "Pilot" where he apologized for saying that Mary was dead and wasn't coming back - I thought he meant that one sincerely, and that's why it got the "no chick flick moments" response - and the "Something Wicked" one where Sam apologized for not realizing why Dean followed John's orders.

See for me, these are examples of saying you're sorry because you know you hurt someone's feelings, but not for the content itself. I'm sorry you were hurt and I'm sorry I hurt you are not the same thing. And I know, Dean does this too - not saying he doesn't - but I'm talking about Sam. And I think it stands out more with Sam because the things he's apologizing for are often so deeply personal, and said with such contempt, that 'I'm sorry' seems more trite and condescending than sincere regret. And then there's "I'll never forgive myself for not looking for you" flavour of apology - but I think I've ranted about that enough for one lifetime, lol.

Edited September 6, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
you're, damnit

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think Sam was ever 'out'. I'm not saying it was a consideration for Dean in deciding to make his deal, but *we* know that Sam was never going to be out, not even by dying. Yeah, Team Hell (Azazel, Lucifer, whoever was doing the resurrecting for team Demons) let Sam 'die' at Jake's hand. But we found out later that they wanted Boy King Sam, no matter what kind of machinations went down to get them to that point.

This is a good point that I had momentarily forgotten. At the time of season 4, though, we didn't know the extent of this. I don't think we found some of this out until the end of season 4 in "On the Head of a Pin" when Castiel told Dean that it was fate that he (Dean) broke the first seal, and then season 5 when Lucifer told Sam that he would just resurrect him (and I think only Lucifer - or another angel - could do that directly. Azazel and even Lilith would've needed someone to make a deal and trade their soul in order to do that according to the angel / demon lore.) We also didn't know that the angels wanted Sam to let Lucifer out until the end of season 4... so I still think the lack of addressing the fact that Sam got thrown back into commission due to Dean making the deal during season 4 was something the show was remiss on.

But also I think the writers sort of wrote themselves into a corner as well. When they made Dean's stint in hell so horrific, and then made him remember it, they kind of made it hard to point out that yeah Sam actually got a bad deal in this too*** because Dean made the deal, so instead they brushed that under the rug and kind of ignored it.

*** As far as we knew then anyway. Once we found out the rest, yeah, you're right that Sam was going to end up having to be a part of this no matter what.

Edited to add: Though I think pre-Lucifer's being sprung, it would've had to have been Zachariah - or maybe Uriel - who resurrected Sam if Dean hadn't made the deal. The lore made it pretty clear that the demons couldn't do that on their own without a deal being made.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given his indoctrination as Sam's guardian and savior, and knowing there was a way to save him, there really wasn't any choice for him. IMO.

I don't disagree here... I just felt the same way about Sam and the Book of the Damned. I think Sam felt like he had to save Dean this time, no matter what the cost. However, the narrative didn't give Sam any consideration in that regard and slammed him for it. And gave me a headache in the process with all of the falling anvils of "this is bad!" And then with Dean killing Death to save Sam where there were no consequences just made that seem even more unbalanced, in my opinion. I really didn't get the message the writers were trying to tell me there. Unless it was if Sam does it = bad, if Dean does it = okay... in which case okay, yeah, I got that message, but I'm fairly sure that wasn't the message the writers were trying to get across.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See for me, these are examples of saying you're sorry because you know you hurt someone's feelings, but not for the content itself. I'm sorry you were hurt and I'm sorry I hurt you are not the same thing.

I agree, and also that Sam would've been doing just this thing, if he hadn't said he was sorry and then clarified it by saying "I've really given you a lot of crap for always following Dad's orders. But I know why you do it..." so in that particular case, I thought Sam was acknowledging his own role in making Dean feel badly - by admitting that he'd been giving Dean crap - and not just that he was sorry that Dean felt hurt.

For me the growth came from the second part - that not only did Sam acknowledge how he was sorry for giving Dean crap, but that he was also saying that he understood now why Dean did it... and finally that he tried to take that into consideration later on. (I say "tried", because actually faced with John, that mostly flew out he window, since old habits die hard and they were almost immediately at one another again - John and Sam that is. Heh... I really shudder to think how bad things would have gotten if Sam hadn't left for college. Poor Dean's dream of a happy family of all three of them together really was doomed from early on.)

Okay, I'm shutting up about this now... Sorry... *slinks away*

Edited September 6, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This is a good point that I had momentarily forgotten. At the time of season 4, though, we didn't know the extent of this. I don't think we found some of this out until the end of season 4 in "On the Head of a Pin" when Castiel told Dean that it was fate that he (Dean) broke the first seal, and then season 5 when Lucifer told Sam that he would just resurrect him (and I think only Lucifer - or another angel - could do that directly. Azazel and even Lilith would've needed someone to make a deal and trade their soul in order to do that according to the angel / demon lore.) We also didn't know that the angels wanted Sam to let Lucifer out until the end of season 4... so I still think the lack of addressing the fact that Sam got thrown back into commission due to Dean making the deal during season 4 was something the show was remiss on.

But also I think the writers sort of wrote themselves into a corner as well. When they made Dean's stint in hell so horrific, and then made him remember it, they kind of made it hard to point out that yeah Sam actually got a bad deal in this too*** because Dean made the deal, so instead they brushed that under the rug and kind of ignored it.

*** As far as we knew then anyway. Once we found out the rest, yeah, you're right that Sam was going to end up having to be a part of this no matter what.

It really is hard to keep straight who knew what and when. I was basing myself on the alleged direction S3 would've gone if they'd had the full 22-23 episodes, that Sam was going darkside. So that says to me that dark things were coming for Sam, regardless.

I am still not sure who, exactly, was doing all the resurrecting, pre-angels. If I recall correctly, the crossroads deals we saw were about saving a life, not restoring it. When John asked if he could save Dean, Azazel said no, but he knew someone who could. I don't think he was being cagey about his own abilities there. And who brought Sam back? Lilith? Have we ever seen a demon have the power of resurrection?

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Have we ever seen a demon have the power of resurrection?

This is a really good question... so I took it to the "What?!?" thread where I could ruminate on it a bit. ; )

[Pondlass1]

21 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I always admire your considered responses and stalwart defense of your boy. :)

I  must endeavour to be as gracious and well-informed in my argument as @AwesomO4000.  Must be a bit lonely as this is a heavily weighted Dean board. But you remain pleasant, fair and educated in any rebuttal or defense of your guy.  Sam would be proud.

A thousand essays could be written on the fascinating bitch/jerk dynamic between these brothers.  I might want to strangle him sometimes, but I wouldn't want Sam any other way.  :)

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Must be a bit lonely as this is a heavily weighted Dean board.

IMO, during Hellatus, more Dean fans stick around because of Dean centric cliffhangers, and especially this season with any potential Michae!Dean news. IMO, many more bi bro fans and Sam and Cas fans come back when a new season starts. JMHO.

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam would be proud.

Thank you. For me, this is high praise. : )

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I  must endeavour to be as gracious and well-informed in my argument as @AwesomO4000.  Must be a bit lonely as this is a heavily weighted Dean board. But you remain pleasant, fair and educated in any rebuttal or defense of your guy.  Sam would be proud.

A thousand essays could be written on the fascinating bitch/jerk dynamic between these brothers.  I might want to strangle him sometimes, but I wouldn't want Sam any other way.  :)

I've been here a long time and this board used to be a heavily weighted Sam board, IMO; and during that time Aeryn was my Hero/Heroine. Just sayin' that because I think it needs sayin'...

Well, that and that *I* think that the board is pretty balanced, at this point. 

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Well, that and that *I* think that the board is pretty balanced, at this point. 

I think so too.

[Myrelle]

Continued comment for the all seasons thread...

Tbh, I think that Gamble felt that JP could portray a "Dean" or even a NearDean character as well as JA could and she wanted to prove that, and I think that JP was all for it, too. And what made it worse was while she was so fixated on this and Sam/JP, she took the inattention and lack of writing regard for the other lead actor/main character on the show and within the storyboard to another level-and this, after the insult(for no few in the Dean fandom, at least)of the S5 finale-and not just a season finale-that one was the culmination of a five year arc that had Dean at the supernatural center of it as well as Sam for almost two whole seasons. And I think that was the main reason that we got what we got in the second half of S6-which IA was much better than the first half for those of us who've always thought of Dean as more than just a supporting character on this show; but she still just had to relegate Dean back to strictly the supporting role in the S6 finale, but this time for both Sam AND Cas.

I'd bet that it wasn't until mid S7(another contract year for the Js, I believe)that the idea to send Dean to Purgatory was hatched, and I remember that as being the first time frame that Jensen started publically questioning some of the writing for the show also. The infamous return of the trench coat to AmnesiacCas being one scene that I can still recall the tale of.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[FlickChick]

On 9/8/2018 at 8:06 AM, Myrelle said:

but she still just had to relegate Dean back to strictly the supporting role in the S6 finale, but this time for both Sam AND Cas.

So, so true. The finales are supposed to be very special episodes (along with premieres), so to sit through "The Sam Show" for almost the entire time was, to this Dean fan, insulting - especially after we had the first version of "The Sam Show" in the finale of season 5.  That first version was more for focus than time, but nonetheless, stuck in many a Dean fan's craw for the final outcome. Ultimately, two finales in a row in which it was obvious that the showrunner's/writer's primary character was Sam and only Sam - except to throw Cas under the bus in S6. Dean was just an "also there" throwaway. JMO

Edited September 9, 2018 by FlickChick
Poor Cas :(

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

The finales are supposed to be very special episodes (along with premieres), so to sit through "The Sam Show" for almost the entire time was, to this Dean fan, insulting -

I thought that the finale had a good amount of Dean as well with his own plot points. Dean called up Balthazar to find where Castiel was and was the one to actually go after Castiel. We did spend some time in Sam's head in the beginning of the episode, but the ending had more Dean,  and there was Dean throughout. Sam got more time onscreen in the episode, true, but Dean was more heavily featured in the previous episode, and in other episode of the season (like "Live Free..."and "Appointment in Samarra,").

In my opinion, we get fewer Sam-centric episodes than Dean-centric ones. Even though the season 5 finale was more Sam-centric, for example, I think there were more Dean-centric episodes throughout season 5: "The End," "The Curious Case...", "99 Problems," "The Devil You Know," and arguably "Two Minutes to Midnight." Even "Sam, Interrupted" was actually more focused on Dean than Sam, but I just enjoyed the episodes for what they were rather than be insulted because there wasn't enough Sam. Just my opinion.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought that the finale had a good amount of Dean as well with his own plot points. Dean called up Balthazar to find where Castiel was and was the one to actually go after Castiel. We did spend some time in Sam's head in the beginning of the episode, but the ending had more Dean,  and there was Dean throughout. Sam got more time onscreen in the episode, true, but Dean was more heavily featured in the previous episode, and in other episode of the season (like "Live Free..."and "Appointment in Samarra,").

In my opinion, we get fewer Sam-centric episodes than Dean-centric ones. Even though the season 5 finale was more Sam-centric, for example, I think there were more Dean-centric episodes throughout season 5: "The End," "The Curious Case...", "99 Problems," "The Devil You Know," and arguably "Two Minutes to Midnight." Even "Sam, Interrupted" was actually more focused on Dean than Sam, but I just enjoyed the episodes for what they were rather than be insulted because there wasn't enough Sam. Just my opinion.

It all depends on how one judges the term "centric", IMO, because three of those episodes you mentioned definitely seemed and felt much more Sam-centric to me, with even The End being almost as much about Sam as it was about Dean, IMO, and this, in spite of the screen-time difference.

I think Sam Interrupted had the most balanced feel as regards -centricity; with 99 Problems being the only one that I would deem truly Dean-centric.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

It all depends on how one judges the term "centric", 

For me, I'm mainly talking about the centric character being the one who experiences most of the plot and whose point of view we are seeing most throughout the episode.

But even if we're talking about some other ways, I still contend that "The End" is Dean-centric. It was all about Dean finding out what would happen in a potential future based on a choice he made, and then after seeing that potential future, whether he would change his mind. Sam - real Sam - wasn't in the episode much. The Sam we did see was Lucifer, and his presence was there to drive Dean's decision... and even then he was only part of the reasoning. I would say that Dean was likely already fairly convinced after meeting the potential future version of himself and seeing that that future version of himself was willing to use Castiel and the rest of his friends as canon fodder. We probably wouldn't have even had to meet Lucifer for Dean to come to the conclusion that he did. Lucifer just added a little extra incentive in that Dean learned the Lucifer was pretty much the same thing he had always been fighting rather than something new.

I would also say that "Sam Interrupted" went much more into Dean's head and Dean's motivation for making the decisions he would make through "99 Problems" and "Point of No Return" than it showed anything about Sam. We didn't learn all that much about Sam until the end of the episode, and then what we did learn - that Sam supposedly had pent up rage - was pushed onto the back burner, had no effect on the plot in the following episodes, and was never really addressed again, because Sam went to hell and came back first soulless and then later Zen. The show never really addressed Sam's rage issues, so that reveal didn't have much impact. Which is why I would say that in my opinion, "Sam, Interrupted" was more about Dean, since his arc and point of view had an impact on the future plot. Sam was mostly the comic relief in this one... very amusing comic relief, sure, but that was his main role... and being the damsel in distress for Dean to save. I still loved the episode though, because I thought it was well written and the stuff we learned about Dean was interesting and was important for understanding his future motivation and making his decisions more sympathetic for me in the episodes to come.

[Katy M]

I've often wondered if people who complain that In the Beginning and The End are Sam-Centric and DEan doesn't get any Dean-centric episodes, would like it, if there were an episode that was supposedly all about him, but Jensen was only in one or two scenes.  My guess would be not.  I agree with @AwesomO4000, though.  The End was very Dean-centric.  He saw his future.  He made his decision not to say yes.

[Myrelle]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've often wondered if people who complain that In the Beginning and The End are Sam-Centric and DEan doesn't get any Dean-centric episodes, would like it, if there were an episode that was supposedly all about him, but Jensen was only in one or two scenes.  My guess would be not.  I agree with @AwesomO4000, though.  The End was very Dean-centric.  He saw his future.  He made his decision not to say yes.

You mean like the Curious Case of Dean Winchester? Except to me, that one was less about Dean and more about informing us how awesome Sam was and building Sam up so that we could get on with his single-handedly saving the world storylinethat S5 became after The End, and all while Dean was given the honor of holding his cape, because that's what Dean learned in The End, IMO."We keep each other human" became code for you can't leave your brother's side no matter what he's said or done to you in the past because he needs you to support him if he's going to save the world single-handedly.

But this is just another old disagreement concerning this show, IMO. So I'll try and keep things succinct and just say that I vehemently disagree with this thought

 

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, we get fewer Sam-centric episodes than Dean-centric ones

while ITA with this one

 

14 hours ago, FlickChick said:

So, so true. The finales are supposed to be very special episodes (along with premieres), so to sit through "The Sam Show" for almost the entire time was, to this Dean fan, insulting - especially after we had the first version of "The Sam Show" in the finale of season 5.  That first version was more for focus than time, but nonetheless, stuck in many a Dean fan's craw for the final outcome. Ultimately, two finales in a row in which it was obvious that the showrunner's/writer's primary character was Sam and only Sam - except to throw Cas under the bus in S6. Dean was just an "also there" throwaway. JMO

 

And I'll add that the reason the S5 finale still sticks in the craw of so many Deanfans is because it was the resolution of a five year story arc and plotline that pretty much cemented and defined what the showrunners thought the two brothers roles were in it(and I say showrunners because I think Gamble had just as much to do with it as Kripke did, at that point-maybe even more, tbh), and it rendered and relegated every single one of Dean's plotline-connections in that 5 year time frame into either sub-plots of Sam's big, main plotline(that rarely went unmentioned or alluded to in some way in any episode-even those that were supposedly Dean-centric)or into a complete red herring that was accomplished through the worst bait and switch writing I've ever seen-the kind that leaves a viewer thinking what could and/or would ever stop them from doing this again, after this one. And after doing asll of those thing yet again in S6-8,  culminating the same way with the Trials sl in S8, it was only after that that they deigned to give us S9-11 as a "balm", of sorts, and to try and parallel that first big Sam storyline because by that point they'd finally gotten the hint/message that Jensen also wanted Dean to be written as a main character on this show in the same vein that Sam was-meaning he wanted a piece of the big, single-handed heroics, too-and that it wasn't just his "delusional" fans asking now. JP/Sam still got the better writing and time-wise, the longer arc, but IMO, Dean fans learned long ago that "balance" in that regard was never going to be fully realized, in any case.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

You mean like the Curious Case of Dean Winchester? Except to me, that one was less about Dean and more about informing us how awesome Sam was and building Sam up so that we could get on with his single-handedly saving the world storylinethat S5 became after The End, and all while Dean was given the honor of holding his cape, because that's what Dean learned in The End, IMO."We keep each other human" became code for you can't leave your brother's side no matter what he's said or done to you in the past because he needs you to support him if he's going to save the world single-handedly.

I actually mistyped.  I meant to say Dean, not Jensen.  DEan was in the whole episode of The Curious Case.  And Jared was in more than a couple of scenes of The End.  I would actually say The Curious Case was more about Dean than Sam, but it was mostly about the witch and his girlfriend.  Heck, I would say it was even more about Bobby.  But, who really cares (other than I know the answer is a lot of people) about who is in which episode more or who the episode concentrates on?  Isn't just having good episodes and good characters, regardless of who they are, more important?