“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I seem to remember Dean said Benny was a better brother when he was under the influence of the cursed coin.

Dean harbored major guilt for killing Benny so I don't think you can say he had no regrets. Show has not shown us what Dean would have done if he didn't think Benny could have come back with Sam. Also they told us Dean buried Benny instead of burning 

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Sorry to nit pick, but Dean was under the influence of that penny in Southern Comfort when he said it.

For some reason I thought Dean said that to Sam in Citizen Fang, but you're right, he said it in Southern Comfort.

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

One of my complaints, as someone who wasn't the biggest fan of Benny throughout season, 8 is this. With the exception of allowing Dean to kill him so Sam could be saved (which happened after Dean's speech about Benny not letting him down); what exactly has Benny done to help Dean that didn't also serve to help Benny? The biggest thing Benny did for Dean IMO was get him out of purgatory, but that also served  to get Benny out of purgatory. It wasn't an entirely selfless act. So IMO Benny hadn't had a chance to let Dean down yet. He'd known him give or take a year. Sam has known Dean his whole life. When Benny has known Dean for thirty odd years and never let him down then we can talk about a comparison between him and Sam being fair IMO.

I completely agree with this.  I never really got that either.

[Idahoforspn]

We also have this from sex and violence:

Sam: ok, fine. You know why I didn't tell you about ruby, and how we're hunting down Lilith? Because you're too weak to go after her Dean. You're holding me back. I'm a better Hunter than you are. Stronger, smarter. I can take out demons you're too scared to go near.

Dean: That's crap

Sam:

You're too busy sitting around feeling sorry for yourself. Whining about all the souls you tortured in Hell. Boo Hoo..

[Reganne]

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I seem to remember Dean said Benny was a better brother when he was under the influence of the cursed coin.

Dean harbored major guilt for killing Benny so I don't think you can say he had no regrets. Show has not shown us what Dean would have done if he didn't think Benny could have come back with Sam. Also they told us Dean buried Benny instead of burning him.

Dean also said there was no one he would put before Sam at the end of season 8.  When I'm talking about regrets, I'm not really talking about guilt.  You can feel guilty about something but not regret it.  If Dean had the choice again, I'd say he would still choose Sam over Benny.  He as much as said so at the end of season 8.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Dean also said there was no one he would put before Sam at the end of season 8.  When I'm talking about regrets, I'm not really talking about guilt.  You can feel guilty about something but not regret it.  If Dean had the choice again, I'd say he would still choose Sam over Benny.  He as much as said so at the end of season 8.

But he didn't say it. Our interpretations are just headcanon

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

We also have this from sex and violence:

Sam: ok, fine. You know why I didn't tell you about ruby, and how we're hunting down Lilith? Because you're too weak to go after her Dean. You're holding me back. I'm a better Hunter than you are. Stronger, smarter. I can take out demons you're too scared to go near.

Dean: That's crap

Sam:

You're too busy sitting around feeling sorry for yourself. Whining about all the souls you tortured in Hell. Boo Hoo..

Dean told Sam it should have been his corpse burning instead of Charlie's in season 10 with the MOC.  He also told Sam that his existence was the reason why his parents were dead when he was a demon.  

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean also said there was no one he would put before Sam at the end of season 8.  When I'm talking about regrets, I'm not really talking about guilt.  You can feel guilty about something but not regret it.  If Dean had the choice again, I'd say he would still choose Sam over Benny.  He as much as said so at the end of season 8.

But he didn't say it. Our interpretations are just headcanon

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean told Sam it should have been his corpse burning instead of Charlie's in season 10 with the MOC.  He also told Sam that his existence was the reason why his parents were dead when he was a demon.  

And Dean actually verbally apologized and took those words back. He apologized for a lot of stuff when he got cured of being a demon. 

[Reganne]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

But he didn't say it. Our interpretations are just headcanon

Technically.  But he did say there is nothing he would put in front of Sam past or present which is basically saying he would choose Sam over anyone.  That includes Benny.  If he considered Benny a better brother, he would put him first.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Technically.  But he did say there is nothing he would put in front of Sam past or present which is basically saying he would choose Sam over anyone.  That includes Benny.  If he considered Benny a better brother, he would put him first.

I would choose my husband over anyone...doesn't mean I would murder someone to save him.

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I would choose my husband over anyone...doesn't mean I would murder someone to save him.

But it still means that Dean wasn't being entirely truthful when he said Benny was the better brother, which is actually what my original point was.  Same with Sam in the Purge.  He wasn't being truthful.  He took back the words and said he lied later on in the series.  Maybe my wording with 'no regrets' wasn't the right way to bring about my point.  Though I don't think he regrets it.  I mean, he said he'd have Gadreel save Sam again even if it meant losing Kevin again.  Not to mention he asked Benny's permission.  I guess you could say head cannon about the actual regrets comment though.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So IMO Benny hadn't had a chance to let Dean down yet. He'd known him give or take a year. Sam has known Dean his whole life. When Benny has known Dean for thirty odd years and never let him down then we can talk about a comparison between him and Sam being fair IMO.

Benny was a brother in arms. Benny risked his life for a year to help Dean find Castiel.  IMO that earned Dean's loyalty as much as anything else Benny did.

[Reganne]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Benny was a brother in arms. Benny risked his life for a year to help Dean find Castiel.  IMO that earned Dean's loyalty as much as anything else Benny did.

At the same time it could be said that he risked his purgatory life to help find Castiel because those actions would lead to Dean helping him out of purgatory.  It was Dean who wanted to find Castiel before leaving.  Benny had no choice but to wait until Dean was ready to leave.

[Idahoforspn]

We saw Benny save Cass when he could have just not hurried quite so fast to help him in the fight. Dean would not have been able to blame Benny for Cass dying in that situation and it would have been easier to get out of purgatory without Cass.

[Reganne]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

We saw Benny save Cass when he could have just not hurried quite so fast to help him in the fight. Dean would not have been able to blame Benny for Cass dying in that situation and it would have been easier to get out of purgatory without Cass.

Though it would have definitely helped to gain Dean's trust if he helped save his friend.  This would help ensure Benny gets out of purgatory with Dean.

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Reganne said:

Though it would have definitely helped to gain Dean's trust if he helped save his friend.  This would help ensure Benny gets out of purgatory with Dean.

Actually Benny said they probably wouldn't make it with the angel tagging along. It would have been in his best interest to let Cass die in a situation where Dean wouldn't blame him for the death.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

At the same time it could be said that he risked his purgatory life to help find Castiel because those actions would lead to Dean helping him out of purgatory.  It was Dean who wanted to find Castiel before leaving.  Benny had no choice but to wait until Dean was ready to leave.

Except that Benny said having an angel go through the portal with them could kill them all. Sure Benny had a self-preservation reason that doesn't change he still fought side by side with Dean for 365 days to help Dean find Cas. He still risked his life for Dean. And he gave up his life to help Dean save Sam.  

[Reganne]

37 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

 

And Dean actually verbally apologized and took those words back. He apologized for a lot of stuff when he got cured of being a demon. 

Did he apologize for saying Sam should be the one burning?  I don't remember.

Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't apologize for calling Sam a monster in season 4.   

[CluelessDrifter]

18 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

One of my complaints as someone who wasn't the biggest fan of Benny throughout season 8 is this. With the exception of allowing Dean to kill him so Sam could be saved (which happened after Dean's speech about Benny not letting him down), what exactly has Benny done to help Dean that didn't also serve to help Benny? The biggest thing Benny did for Dean IMO was get him out of purgatory, but that also got Benny out of purgatory. So IMO Benny hadn't had a chance to let Dean down yet. He'd known him give or take a year. Sam has known Dean his whole life. 

IMO, you have to take what they say when they're under the influence of supernatural things seriously, because I think they're things they really think in the back of their mind but don't say until those things are amplified and exaggerated by a supernatural entity.  You can always tell when they meant the things they said because of the looks they give after the situation is over.  For example, in the siren case in Season 4, the looks they gave showed this, and then in When the Levee Breaks, Sam confirmed that he didn't think Dean was strong enough to go after Lilith (He also thought Dean was too weak to deal with Alistair in On the Head of Pin). 

If that's the case, look at what Dean said in Southern Comfort.  He said that all Sam had done since he climbed in Dean's ride was deceive him.  He listed some of Sam's worst hits, things that still obviously bothered Dean.  He admitted to having lied to Sam in the past, but then said he'd never betrayed Sam.  

Benny was upfront with him from the word go.  He told Dean not to trust him, that it was a mutually beneficial arrangement and all the rest, but when it came down to it, Benny came through for him, not just with getting him out of Purgatory, but he saved Cas when it would've been easier for him not do it, and he did it for Dean, because Benny didn't like Cas.  He thought going to find Cas was a waste of time.  He thought Cas let Dean down, and he thought Cas was a liability.  Letting Cas die at the hands of the Leviathan would have definitely made his end game of getting out of Purgatory easier than saving him. I really think they were trying to go with giving Benny the status of Dean's brother in arms, which is no small thing.  They were close because they went through a prolonged period of non-stop battle side-by-side, came out the other side together, and that changed both of them. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 And that was the iconic "We got work to do" originally from Sam in "Pilot," but said by Dean in "Fan Fiction"

Boom.  Thank you.  

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 Dean is the one who "breaks" after 6 weeks of prison and his own hell gets diminished as even easier than that. Sam,

UO here, I'm sure - but I've thought about this while rewatching parts of S5 and S6.  Sam's hell was worse than Dean's.  That's not saying Dean's was a walk in the park.  I mean, I sure don't want to do it.  But Sam was in the freakin' Cage with Lucifer and Michael.  The Cage has been acknowledged (even before S5) to be much worse than regular hell - by Crowley, Lucifer, and even God.  Otherwise, why would God have bothered to lock Lucifer in The Cage in the first place instead of just casting him down to Hell?  

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 in the very next scene we have Dean being more interested in the waitress than the hunt. A little later, he was more interested in the burger than the hunt. 

I disagree that Dean was more interested in the burger than the hunt.  Dean had already done his research.  He then relays this information to Sam and then asks Sam how his (Sam's) research went.  Which means that Dean put the hunt first, just like he should. 

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

oh yeah, went to hell so Sam could live.  

Arguably, Sam also went to hell (The Cage) so Dean could live.  

39 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And Dean actually verbally apologized and took those words back. He apologized for a lot of stuff when he got cured of being a demon. 

I don't recall Dean ever actually apologizing for wishing Sam were dead instead of Charlie.  And if you're counting a blanket "I'm sorry for whatever shit I said, etc, etc, etc." then Sam's blanket apologies since The Purge also count for all the 'sins' you are listing.  

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought that was painfully stupid. Because after you`ve done something like the Purge speech, you can never, ever, ever go to "I`ll never see you as anything but good". 

That would be like Dean saying "I would never sell my soul for you" to Sam. 

If you want to get a certain sentiment across during a scene, don`t write "absolute" dialogue that is already directly contradicted by previous dialogue. Because then I will not find anything in that scene believable, not even the underlying sentiment.  

Maybe Sam changed his mind? That's what - for me - season 8 and 9 was set up for: showing Sam the "error of his ways," because of course Sam would do the same thing as Dean did - and more - as shown in season 10. So the writers set up that speech in "The Purge" to doubly show that Sam was wrong. As I said in my post above... part of that was to take away Sam's good characters. Theoretically Sam should have forgiven Dean in my opinoin, just like he forgave Castiel in season 7, if they wanted to stay fairly true to character. Or Sam would have forgiven him within a couple of weeks. But nope, that's not what Carver showed. He showed Sam as unforgiving and judgemental - which Sam is a little, but Carver took it to extremes - so Sam would get his comeuppance - which Sam did. Sam had to tell Dean how right he was concerning Abaddon - even though taking the mark should have been reckless and dangerous - and then later ask for forgiveness about not looking for Dean.

So yes, people do change their mind. I'm proof of that - I do it on this board often enough during these discussions, and I generally admit to seeing the other side and changing my mind. So I can entirely buy that even if Sam truly believed what he said in "The Purge" (which I don't entirely, but lets say I do) that Sam could change his mind and entirely believe "I will never (again) see you as anything but good" after learning his lesson in season 10. That was as far as I can tell the entire point of season 8-10, showing - as @Wayward Son outlined above - that even though messy, doing anything and everything to save your family is the right thing to do. And Sam, now having learned that, would, in my opinion, entirely believe and say that Dean would always have good intentions. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have learned his lesson, and I think the show wanted to show that he had. My opinion on that one.

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Sam-fan waxed poetic about brave, sweet, selfless Sam, there is nothing he can`t do

...After reading only partial truths. In general, Sam-fans in this verse are working from half-truths... and they are portrayed that way. Remember that Chuck's books do not have all of the facts. Sam's blood drinking - and who knows how many other things connected to that - are not in the books. The fans don't have a realistic picture of Sam. So not only is Marie - like all "Samgirls" in the verse - fangirling over a more idealized Sam, it is shown throughout the episode that Marie actually bonds more with Dean. On the other hand, the Dean fangirl doesn't bond as much with Sam and pretty much thinks he's a geek. Sure Maeve tells Sam in the end that he might make a good Dean if he cut his hair, but it is nowhere near the bonding that Marie has with who she realizes is the real Dean. She doesn't even recognize or acknowledge the real Sam for who he is.

So maybe, according to Thompson, Dean is admirable for who he really is and is acknowledged to be so right in front of Marie, whereas Sam is "brave, sweet, and selfless" on paper, but in real life is hardly noticed by Marie at all. I don't believe that is the entire message, but it certainly, in my opinion, could be taken as such if looked at in that way.

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

If you can count what Dean said under the influence of a supernatural entity

Was Dean under the influence when he said that? I don't think he was or at least he wasn't when he said (or implied) that Benny was the only one who never let him down. Was the coin the only time in the season Dean said something like that? Because when Sam referenced it, Dean seemed to know what Sam was talking about. But I admit I don't like season 8 so don't rewatch and could be fuzzy on the details.

54 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I can find a lot more to Sam from Dean praising him than I can find of Sam praising Dean.

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I can find a lot more of Sam ripping apart Dean pretty viciously than I can find of Dean doing the same.

But that might be because that's what you remember. In addition to all of the examples @Reganne gave, I can name a bunch more of Sam praising or saying positive things to Dean with only a little thought:

• "Most people wouldn't have had the strength..." and "...people are alive because of you." from the end of "What Is..."
• The "I've been looking up to you since I was four" speech from "Fresh Blood."
• "I can't do this without you"
• "No one would have held out that long" - from when Dean first told Sam about getting off the rack in hell.
• "And I have a soul because of you" from "Mannequin 3..." something Sam made sure to let Dean know he was very grateful for
• "You've saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this." from "All Hell..., pt2"
• "I do need you watching my back... obviously" from "Season 7, Time for a Wedding."
• "Because you're sill my brother, and I love you." from "Sam, Interrupted" Yes, Sam was high, but I think it's only one of two times in the series one of them has said "I love you" to the other. Unless I'm misremembering. The other was also Sam to Dean, in "Bloody Mary."

As for Sam ripping apart Dean more than the other way around, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. If we discount under the influence stuff - which gives Dean a lot of leeway, since he had the MoC for a season and a half - we have Sam's "The Purge" speech, but we also have Dean's "Point of No Return" declarations - which were pretty harsh. And Dean calling Sam a monster, and implying - in a bad way - that Sam was like John. But it's also more difficult to gauge, because Dean is often more subtle in his digs when he gets them in.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except that Benny said having an angel go through the portal with them could kill them all. Sure Benny had a self-preservation reason that doesn't change he still fought side by side with Dean for 365 days to help Dean find Cas. He still risked his life for Dean. And he gave up his life to help Dean save Sam.

Of course Benny was good. Dean said he was. I don't necessarily think this was a good thing for the story, though. It was used a sledgehammer of "Sam is wrong!" and a way to make Sam look bad. It made me resent Benny more than anything else.

In my opinion it would've been much more interesting - for both Dean's and Benny's story - if Benny had been more iffy but regretted it because of his comrardery with Dean*. His saving sam could've then been his way of making things right and his way of trying to show Dean his appreciation for believing in him even if he (Benny) couldn't quite be that for Dean. And I think it would've given Dean a more juicy after purgatory story to show him torn about questioning Benny. But instead it was a straightforward Dean is right as usual storyline.

* Sort of like the chipped Spike storyline in Buffy. Spike wanted to be "good" for Buffy and he tried, but in the end he knew without his soul, he was what he was and that he couldn't overcome his nature no matter how much he wanted it to be so. At the same time, for a while Buffy wanted to believe that Spike could overcome his nature, even though in her heart she knew he couldn't. This is what made his sacrifice of getting his soul so significant. For me, it would've been somewhat lame if all Spike needed was that chip and he'd been "good." Ugh. But just my opinion on that one.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Did he apologize for saying Sam should be the one burning?  I don't remember.

Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't apologize for calling Sam a monster in season 4.   

I thought he he did apologize because isn't that the episode where Sam gives him a major beat down and walks out. Then Bobby gives Dean the famous Princess speech and Dean has to cave and go grovel in to Sam..

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

But that might be because that's what you remember. In addition to all of the examples @Reganne gave, I can name a bunch more of Sam praising or saying positive things to Dean with only a little thought:

• "Most people wouldn't have had the strength..." and "...people are alive because of you." from the end of "What Is..."
• The "I've been looking up to you since I was four" speech from "Fresh Blood."
• "I can't do this without you"
• "No one would have held out that long" - from when Dean first told Sam about getting off the rack in hell.
• "And I have a soul because of you" from "Mannequin 3..." something Sam made sure to let Dean know he was very grateful for
• "You've saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this." from "All Hell..., pt2"
• "I do need you watching my back... obviously" from "Season 7, Time for a Wedding."
• "Because you're sill my brother, and I love you." from "Sam, Interrupted" Yes, Sam was high, but I think it's only one of two times in the series one of them has said "I love you" to the other. Unless I'm misremembering. The other was also Sam to Dean, in "Bloody Mary."

As for Sam ripping apart Dean more than the other way around, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. If we discount under the influence stuff - which gives Dean a lot of leeway, since he had the MoC for a season and a half - we have Sam's "The Purge" speech, but we also have Dean's "Point of No Return" declarations - which were pretty harsh. And Dean calling Sam a monster, and implying - in a bad way - that Sam was like John. But it's also more difficult to gauge, because Dean is often more subtle in his digs when he gets them in.

 

I completly agree this.  

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought he he did apologize because isn't that the episode where Sam gives him a major beat down and walks out. Then Bobby gives Dean the famous Princess speech and Dean has to cave and go grovel in to Sam..

I'm not sure about that.  I don't think the two of them interacted after that.  Dean didn't immediately turn around. He was angry and then and ended up stuck with Zachariah.  I thought the next time they interacted was when Dean was trying to stop Sam from killing Lilith... but I could be wrong.

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I completly agree this.  

I'm not sure about that.  I don't think the two of them interacted after that.  Dean didn't immediately turn around. He was angry and then and ended up stuck with Zachariah.  I thought the next time they interacted was when Dean was trying to stop Sam from killing Lilith... but I could be wrong.

And didn't he apologize when he left the message that Zachaiah changed. Sam may not have gotten it but Dean did apologize.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought he he did apologize because isn't that the episode where Sam gives him a major beat down and walks out. Then Bobby gives Dean the famous Princess speech and Dean has to cave and go grovel in to Sam.

Actually Dean did apologize on the phone... but Sadly Sam never heard it, and he never knew, because Zachariah (or Ruby, depending on who you think did it) changed Dean's phone message. Which ironically added to the tension in season 5, I think.

Though based on his apology, Dean - I think - was more apologizing for the "If you walk out that door, don't you ever come back" thing more than the monster thing, because he mentioned that he wasn't John, and that no matter how bad things got they were still family, but not the monster part.

Edited May 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Did he apologize for saying Sam should be the one burning?  I don't remember.

Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't apologize for calling Sam a monster in season 4.   

I'm sorry, but what Sam did to that nurse right after he left Dean in When the Levee Breaks was pretty monstrous, and Dean did apologize.  

Dean:  "Look, I'll just get right to it. I'm still pissed... and I owe you a serious beatdown. But... I shouldn't have said what I said. You know, I'm not Dad. We're brothers. You know, we're family. And, uh... no matter how bad it gets, that doesn't change. Sammy, I'm sorry."

Zachariah just changed the message to say something else other than what Dean said.

Did Dean apologize for saying that Sam should be the one burning?  Not that I recall.  He saw Sam as the one responsible for putting Charlie on the Styne's radar again and said something in anger before telling Sam to shut it down again.  Personally, I blame the Nepotism Duo for having Charlie wander off because she was annoyed with Rowena and for having the Winchesters only put the Styne guy in one handcuff.  Anyway, if someone close to you dies, do you blame the victim for doing something stupid, or do you blame the person close to you who is still alive and who you see as someone who facilitated it until you can take your aggression out on the perpetrators?  Does that make what he said right?  No.  Understandable on a human level?  I think so.

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

UO here, I'm sure - but I've thought about this while rewatching parts of S5 and S6.  Sam's hell was worse than Dean's.  That's not saying Dean's was a walk in the park.  I mean, I sure don't want to do it.  But Sam was in the freakin' Cage with Lucifer and Michael.  The Cage has been acknowledged (even before S5) to be much worse than regular hell - by Crowley, Lucifer, and even God.  Otherwise, why would God have bothered to lock Lucifer in The Cage in the first place instead of just casting him down to Hell?  

I always thought the Cage was just sort of solitary confinement, not worse than Hell.  The idea was that Lucifer and I'm assuming Michael would have easily been able to get out of just Hell, and the Cage was all that could hold them.  Sam's soul was tortured by Lucifer, undoubtedly, but I don't think Michael did anything to him.  Dean was also tortured constantly while in Hell, until he finally took their offer and started torturing souls himself.  I think from Dean's perspective, that was even worse, or at least the part he couldn't forgive himself for.  

I do think Dean's time in Hell was an important storyline until after Sam went to Hell.  Then suddenly it was as if Dean had never been there.  As a Dean fan, that definitely sucks.

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually Dean did apologize on the phone... but Sadly Sam never heard it, and he never knew, because Zachariah (or Ruby, depending on who you think did it) changed Dean's phone message. Which ironically added to the tension in season 5, I think.

Ah.  OK.   I thought an apology might have changed things.  However that make sense.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Of course Benny was good. Dean said he was. I don't necessarily think this was a good thing for the story, though. It was used a sledgehammer of "Sam is wrong!" and a way to make Sam look bad. It made me resent Benny more than anything else.

In my opinion it would've been much more interesting - for both Dean's and Benny's story - if Benny had been more iffy but regretted it because of his comrardery with Dean*. His saving sam could've then been his way of making things right and his way of trying to show Dean his appreciation for believing in him even if he (Benny) couldn't quite be that for Dean. And I think it would've given Dean a more juicy after purgatory story to show him torn about questioning Benny. But instead it was a straightforward Dean is right as usual storyline.

Sorry, I don't understand. I wasn't saying that Benny was a "good" person. He is a vampire and there was still the chance that he would go dark side. Dean knew this about Benny but he gave him benefit of doubt, because Dean values loyalty both ways. Benny was loyal to Dean in Purgatory. Benny held up his end of the bargain. Benny literally died for Sam.  

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'm sorry, but what Sam did to that nurse right after he left Dean in When the Levee Breaks was pretty monstrous, and Dean did apologize.  

Dean:  "Look, I'll just get right to it. I'm still pissed... and I owe you a serious beatdown. But... I shouldn't have said what I said. You know, I'm not Dad. We're brothers. You know, we're family. And, uh... no matter how bad it gets, that doesn't change. Sammy, I'm sorry."

Zachariah just changed the message to say something else other than what Dean said.

Did Dean apologize for saying that Sam should be the one burning?  Not that I recall.  He saw Sam as the one responsible for putting Charlie on the Styne's radar again and said something in anger before telling Sam to shut it down again.  Personally, I blame the Nepotism Duo for having Charlie wander off because she was annoyed with Rowena and for having the Winchesters only put the Styne guy in one handcuff.  Anyway, if someone close to you dies, do you blame the victim for doing something stupid, or do you blame the person close to you who is still alive and who you see as someone who facilitated it until you can take your aggression out on the perpetrators?  Does that make what he said right?  No.  Understandable on a human level?  I think so.

Technically a lot of what they do wrong could be seen as understandable in a way.  Like in the purge.  Sam was upset bc Gadreel used his body to kill Kevin.  My point is... both brothers have said hurtful things to eachother.  It's definitely not just Sam.  Also Dean had no idea about the nurse when he said what he said.

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I always thought the Cage was just sort of solitary confinement, not worse than Hell.  The idea was that Lucifer and I'm assuming Michael would have easily been able to get out of just Hell, and the Cage was all that could hold them.  Sam's soul was tortured by Lucifer, undoubtedly, but I don't think Michael did anything to him.  Dean was also tortured constantly while in Hell, until he finally took their offer and started torturing souls himself.  I think from Dean's perspective, that was even worse, or at least the part he couldn't forgive himself for.  

I do think Dean's time in Hell was an important storyline until after Sam went to Hell.  Then suddenly it was as if Dean had never been there.  As a Dean fan, that definitely sucks.

The hell storyline is a deep source of frustration for  Dean fans

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe Sam changed his mind? That's what - for me - season 8 and 9 was set up for: showing Sam the "error of his ways," because of course Sam would do the same thing as Dean did - and more - as shown in season 10. So the writers set up that speech in "The Purge" to doubly show that Sam was wrong. As I said in my post above... part of that was to take away Sam's good characters. Theoretically Sam should have forgiven Dean in my opinoin, just like he forgave Castiel in season 7, if they wanted to stay fairly true to character. Or Sam would have forgiven him within a couple of weeks. But nope, that's not what Carver showed. He showed Sam as unforgiving and judgemental - which Sam is a little, but Carver took it to extremes - so Sam would get his comeuppance - which Sam did. Sam had to tell Dean how right he was concerning Abaddon - even though taking the mark should have been reckless and dangerous - and then later ask for forgiveness about not looking for Dean.

So yes, people do change their mind. I'm proof of that - I do it on this board often enough during these discussions, and I generally admit to seeing the other side and changing my mind. So I can entirely buy that even if Sam truly believed what he said in "The Purge" (which I don't entirely, but lets say I do) that Sam could change his mind and entirely believe "I will never (again) see you as anything but good" after learning his lesson in season 10. That was as far as I can tell the entire point of season 8-10, showing - as @Wayward Son outlined above - that even though messy, doing anything and everything to save your family is the right thing to do. And Sam, now having learned that, would, in my opinion, entirely believe and say that Dean would always have good intentions. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have learned his lesson, and I think the show wanted to show that he had. My opinion on that one.

...After reading only partial truths. In general, Sam-fans in this verse are working from half-truths... and they are portrayed that way. Remember that Chuck's books do not have all of the facts. Sam's blood drinking - and who knows how many other things connected to that - are not in the books. The fans don't have a realistic picture of Sam. So not only is Marie - like all "Samgirls" in the verse - fangirling over a more idealized Sam, it is shown throughout the episode that Marie actually bonds more with Dean. On the other hand, the Dean fangirl doesn't bond as much with Sam and pretty much thinks he's a geek. Sure Maeve tells Sam in the end that he might make a good Dean if he cut his hair, but it is nowhere near the bonding that Marie has with who she realizes is the real Dean. She doesn't even recognize or acknowledge the real Sam for who he is.

So maybe, according to Thompson, Dean is admirable for who he really is and is acknowledged to be so right in front of Marie, whereas Sam is "brave, sweet, and selfless" on paper, but in real life is hardly noticed by Marie at all. I don't believe that is the entire message, but it certainly, in my opinion, could be taken as such if looked at in that way.

Was Dean under the influence when he said that? I don't think he was or at least he wasn't when he said (or implied) that Benny was the only one who never let him down. Was the coin the only time in the season Dean said something like that? Because when Sam referenced it, Dean seemed to know what Sam was talking about. But I admit I don't like season 8 so don't rewatch and could be fuzzy on the details.

But that might be because that's what you remember. In addition to all of the examples @Reganne gave, I can name a bunch more of Sam praising or saying positive things to Dean with only a little thought:

• "Most people wouldn't have had the strength..." and "...people are alive because of you." from the end of "What Is..."
• The "I've been looking up to you since I was four" speech from "Fresh Blood."
• "I can't do this without you"
• "No one would have held out that long" - from when Dean first told Sam about getting off the rack in hell.
• "And I have a soul because of you" from "Mannequin 3..." something Sam made sure to let Dean know he was very grateful for
• "You've saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this." from "All Hell..., pt2"
• "I do need you watching my back... obviously" from "Season 7, Time for a Wedding."
• "Because you're sill my brother, and I love you." from "Sam, Interrupted" Yes, Sam was high, but I think it's only one of two times in the series one of them has said "I love you" to the other. Unless I'm misremembering. The other was also Sam to Dean, in "Bloody Mary."

As for Sam ripping apart Dean more than the other way around, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. If we discount under the influence stuff - which gives Dean a lot of leeway, since he had the MoC for a season and a half - we have Sam's "The Purge" speech, but we also have Dean's "Point of No Return" declarations - which were pretty harsh. And Dean calling Sam a monster, and implying - in a bad way - that Sam was like John. But it's also more difficult to gauge, because Dean is often more subtle in his digs when he gets them in.

Of course Benny was good. Dean said he was. I don't necessarily think this was a good thing for the story, though. It was used a sledgehammer of "Sam is wrong!" and a way to make Sam look bad. It made me resent Benny more than anything else.

In my opinion it would've been much more interesting - for both Dean's and Benny's story - if Benny had been more iffy but regretted it because of his comrardery with Dean*. His saving sam could've then been his way of making things right and his way of trying to show Dean his appreciation for believing in him even if he (Benny) couldn't quite be that for Dean. And I think it would've given Dean a more juicy after purgatory story to show him torn about questioning Benny. But instead it was a straightforward Dean is right as usual storyline.

* Sort of like the chipped Spike storyline in Buffy. Spike wanted to be "good" for Buffy and he tried, but in the end he knew without his soul, he was what he was and that he couldn't overcome his nature no matter how much he wanted it to be so. At the same time, for a while Buffy wanted to believe that Spike could overcome his nature, even though in her heart she knew he couldn't. This is what made his sacrifice of getting his soul so significant. For me, it would've been somewhat lame if all Spike needed was that chip and he'd been "good." Ugh. But just my opinion on that one.

 Yes, Sam told Dean that "No one would have held out that long" regarding hell and torture and then started within a few episodes mocking Dean for his guilt over it and telling him how weak he was. I can't really take that praise seriously. Sam does that a lot. Tells Dean he is a good whatever and then pretty soon actions and words show he really didnt mean it.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I don't understand. I wasn't saying that Benny was a "good" person. He is a vampire and there was still the chance that he would go dark side. Dean knew this about Benny but he gave him benefit of doubt, because Dean values loyalty both ways. Benny was loyal to Dean in Purgatory. Benny held up his end of the bargain. Benny literally died for Sam.  

I apologize if your post wasn't intended to be saying that Benny was good. I thought from your implication that he helped find and protect Castiel, risked his life for Dean, and gave up his life for Sam was implying that Benny was truly good rather than just going along with Dean for mutual benefit as previous posts had been suggesting. If that's not what your post was saying, then my mistake.

My point was that for me, there actually wasn't much of a question on whether or not Benny would be good or not. From how the season started I knew he would be. I could tell from early on that this was being set up as a tearing down of Sam, and if Benny wasn't good, Sam would be right and wouldn't be torn down. And in contradiction to almost all SPNverse canon that came before, what Benny did wasn't just good - It was practically "Tale of Two Cities" good. Some people wouldn't do it. So not only was Benny painted as loyal to Dean, he was later shown to be a nicer "person" than Sam in this narrative (who earlier wanted to kill Benny just because.) Dying to save Sam wasn't even part of the bargain. Heck, even Benny being good after going topside I don't think was specifically in the bargain. But of course the narrative / writers had to go over the top with the "vampire with a heart of gold" trope to make Sam look bad. I predicted it early on - in that I knew Benny would sacrifice himself for Sam at some point to show Sam the error of his ways - and back on TWoP I even said as such. And also as I said, it made me resent Benny more than anything else.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I apologize if your post wasn't intended to be saying that Benny was good. I thought from your implication that he helped find and protect Castiel, risked his life for Dean, and gave up his life for Sam was implying that Benny was truly good rather than just going along with Dean for mutual benefit as previous posts had been suggesting. If that's not what your post was saying, then my mistake.

I wasn't saying either thing.  Just stating what happened and why Dean valued Benny and trusted Benny and why Dean saw Benny as friend.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I apologize if your post wasn't intended to be saying that Benny was good. I thought from your implication that he helped find and protect Castiel, risked his life for Dean, and gave up his life for Sam was implying that Benny was truly good rather than just going along with Dean for mutual benefit as previous posts had been suggesting. If that's not what your post was saying, then my mistake.

My point was that for me, there actually wasn't much of a question on whether or not Benny would be good or not. From how the season started I knew he would be. I could tell from early on that this was being set up as a tearing down of Sam, and if Benny wasn't good, Sam would be right and wouldn't be torn down. And in contradiction to almost all SPNverse canon that came before, what Benny did wasn't just good - It was practically "Tale of Two Cities" good. Some people wouldn't do it. So not only was Benny painted as loyal to Dean, he was later shown to be a nicer "person" than Sam in this narrative (who earlier wanted to kill Benny just because.) Dying to save Sam wasn't even part of the bargain. Heck, even Benny being good after going topside I don't think was specifically in the bargain. But of course the narrative / writers had to go over the top with the "vampire with a heart of gold" trope to make Sam look bad. I predicted it early on - in that I knew Benny would sacrifice himself for Sam at some point to show Sam the error of his ways - and back on TWoP I even said as such. And also as I said, it made me resent Benny more than anything else.

For the life of me, I don't understand how the writers thought a lot of stuff made Sam look good. It is apparent that they didn't really understand how it would be received by the audience.

[CluelessDrifter]

34 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe Sam changed his mind? That's what - for me - season 8 and 9 was set up for: showing Sam the "error of his ways," because of course Sam would do the same thing as Dean did - and more - as shown in season 10. So the writers set up that speech in "The Purge" to doubly show that Sam was wrong. As I said in my post above... part of that was to take away Sam's good characters. Theoretically Sam should have forgiven Dean in my opinoin, just like he forgave Castiel in season 7, if they wanted to stay fairly true to character. Or Sam would have forgiven him within a couple of weeks. But nope, that's not what Carver showed. He showed Sam as unforgiving and judgemental - which Sam is a little, but Carver took it to extremes - so Sam would get his comeuppance - which Sam did. Sam had to tell Dean how right he was concerning Abaddon - even though taking the mark should have been reckless and dangerous - and then later ask for forgiveness about not looking for Dean.

I agree that the show destroyed Sam's character in seasons 8 and 9 for story reasons.  Despite some manufactured angst here and there, it took seasons 5, 6 and 7 for me to warm to Sam again after season 4, but then we got 8 and 9.  Thankfully, he's been rehabilitated since then for me for the most part.  

As far as Sam consistently making the wrong choices while trying to do the right thing, I think that Cas also has this problem, and it's not really a Dean vs. Sam thing.  It's a Dean is the moral compass of the show and has been throughout the run of the series thing.  That's why even as a demon, they wouldn't let him stray too far from that.  

Having said that, I don't know if Dean's the moral compass this year.  I guess it depends on whether or not the nephilim is evil or good.  With the way things are going, I could almost see them have him be wrong about the nephilim being evil, because this season has changed our lead characters roles so much, but he's not wrong about the BMoL, so I guess we'll see. :)

[AwesomO4000]

13 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

 Yes, Sam told Dean that "No one would have held out that long" regarding hell and torture and then started within a few episodes mocking Dean for his guilt over it and telling him how weak he was. I can't really take that praise seriously.

Believe me, that was a sore spot for me. To me, the mocking wasn't in character for Sam at that point in the show and was done to make Sam look bad and garner sympathy for Dean. I resented it, especially since in the scene that I cited, Sam's sympathy seemed extremely genuine and it was a sympathetic moment for him that the writers later took away for in my opinion, unnecessary melodrama. It's why I dislike season 4 in retrospect and don't consider it an "even" season, considering - to me - the attempt to make Sam the "bad brother" was over the top and unnecessary.

18 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Sam does that a lot. Tells Dean he is a good whatever and then pretty soon actions and words show he really didnt mean it.

Eh, Dean does the same thing, but he's generally not said to be being disingenuous with his first statement.

Examples: when Dean told Sam he admired Sam going off on his own to college. But later statements seemed to be going back to his "Sam abandoned the family" stance.

Dean saying they all got a do-over and a clean start in season 6, but then in season 8 he apparently hadn't let things go, because he brought them all up again in the finale.

But as for it being "a lot?" I disagree. I don't think it happens all that much - in either of their cases. And when it does happen - they are human characters. They make mistakes. They sometimes think things that they regret. It happens to both brothers and it makes them more real. As I said above, people are allowed to change their minds. They are also allowed to have moments of weakness. I don't think those things should be held against them forevermore... but that's just my opinion on that.

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't saying either thing.  Just stating what happened and why Dean valued Benny and trusted Benny and why Dean saw Benny as friend.

My apologies then.

I guess for me, it's a given why Dean would see Benny as a friend, which is why I thought your post was replying to something else or had a different meaning.

[Demented Daisy]

I got bored and stopped counting after S6, but according to my records (which are in the Bitterness thread, if anyone wants to see the season breakdowns):

Dean:

• Said he was sorry to Sam 26 times.
• Said he was wrong 1 time.
• Said Sam was right 12 times.

Sam:

• Said he was sorry to Dean 22 times.
• Said he was wrong 2 times.
• Said Dean was right 7 times.

Maybe someday I'll start counting again with season 7, but I don't have the time right now.

[CluelessDrifter]

50 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Technically a lot of what they do wrong could be seen as understandable in a way.  Like in the purge.  Sam was upset bc Gadreel used his body to kill Kevin.  My point is... both brothers have said hurtful things to eachother.  It's definitely not just Sam.  Also Dean had no idea about the nurse when he said what he said.

Dean not knowing about the nurse doesn't change that what Sam did to her was monstrous.  I have a hard time letting the nurse go.  I've been holding onto it for too long.  

Both brothers have said hurtful things to the other.  They're siblings.  They know the right words to use to cut to the quick, and they use them, but I do tend to think that Sam is the king of this.  It doesn't mean that he never says nice things to or about Dean.  It doesn't mean he doesn't love him.  Anyone who has siblings knows this. 

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Believe me, that was a sore spot for me. To me, the mocking wasn't in character for Sam at that point in the show and was done to make Sam look bad and garner sympathy for Dean. I resented it, especially since in the scene that I cited, Sam's sympathy seemed extremely genuine and it was a sympathetic moment for him that the writers later took away for in my opinion, unnecessary melodrama. It's why I dislike season 4 in retrospect and don't consider it an "even" season, considering - to me - the attempt to make Sam the "bad brother" was over the top and unnecessary.

Eh, Dean does the same thing, but he's generally not said to be being disingenuous with his first statement.

Examples: when Dean told Sam he admired Sam going off on his own to college. But later statements seemed to be going back to his "Sam abandoned the family" stance.

Dean saying they all got a do-over and a clean start in season 6, but then in season 8 he apparently hadn't let things go, because he brought them all up again in the finale.

But as for it being "a lot?" I disagree. I don't think it happens all that much - in either of their cases. And when it does happen - they are human characters. They make mistakes. They sometimes think things that they regret. It happens to both brothers and it makes them more real. As I said above, people are allowed to change their minds. They are also allowed to have moments of weakness. I don't think those things should be held against them forevermore... but that's just my opinion on that.

This may cause an uproar too but I think Jensen's acting is excellent at making his character sympathetic. He changes the deliver to do that. Take the talk with God over his  abandoning earth. The writers intended Dean to be angry but Jensen changed the delivery. Instead of coming off as an angry hothead, he broke our hearts.

10 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I got bored and stopped counting after S6, but according to my records (which are in the Bitterness thread, if anyone wants to see the season breakdowns):

Dean:

• Said he was sorry to Sam 26 times.
• Said he was wrong 1 time.
• Said Sam was right 12 times.

Sam:

• Said he was sorry to Dean 22 times.
• Said he was wrong 2 times.
• Said Dean was right 7 times.

Maybe someday I'll start counting again with season 7, but I don't have the time right now.

Interesting. It would be interesting to see how the rest shakes out.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I disagree that Dean was more interested in the burger than the hunt.  Dean had already done his research.  He then relays this information to Sam and then asks Sam how his (Sam's) research went.  Which means that Dean put the hunt first, just like he should

To me, it seemed like his enthusiasm for that burger was greater than his enthusiasm for the case.

[ILoveReading]

49 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

To me, it seemed like his enthusiasm for that burger was greater than his enthusiasm for the case.

Agree.  I have never seen Dean so disinterested in a case before.  I'm not sure if it was Dean or Jensen though.  Not one of my favorite performances from him.

 

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

Also Dean had no idea about the nurse when he said what he said.

True, but Dean I always felt that statement was directed more toward Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture than the Nurse.   Sam practically ripped a woman's throat out with his teeth.  That was Sam straight up jonesing for a hit, since Ruby left him high and dry.  Even Dean flinched when Sam stood up with all the blood all over him. 

I went back and looked up the dialogue

Quote

DEAN
No. You don't know what you're doing, Sam

SAM
Yes, I do.

DEAN
Then that's worse.

SAM
Why? Look, I'm telling you—

DEAN
Because it's not something that you're doing, it's what you are! It means—

DEAN cuts himself off.

SAM
What? No. Say it.

SAM has tears in his eyes.

DEAN
It means you're a monster.

I thought what Dean was saying was that if Sam knew what he was doing was wrong but he did it anyway than that makes him a monster. He even tried to give Sam an out and say it wasn't him.

[Wayward Son]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Benny was a brother in arms. Benny risked his life for a year to help Dean find Castiel.  IMO that earned Dean's loyalty as much as anything else Benny did.

Oh I am not disputing that Dean felt loyal to Benny due to their time together in Purgatory. However, I still find the idea of comparing the "betrayals" of someone he has only known for a year, and had a mutual dependence on for survival during most of that time, to someone he has known his entire life and lived in both extreme and day to day situations with absolutely ridiculous. As I mentioned in a previous post, this is a comparison Dean can fairly make when he has known Benny for thirty odd years and given the vampire numerous chances to potentially betray them. 

 

7 hours ago, Reganne said:

Though it would have definitely helped to gain Dean's trust if he helped save his friend.  This would help ensure Benny gets out of purgatory with Dean.

Exactly! I do believe from his actions in Taxi Driver Benny genuinely saved Cas' life for Dean sake. However, prior to that Dean (and the viewers) had no real way of knowing with one hundred certainty whether it was a genuine act, or simply done as a way to earn Dean's trust. 

[companionenvy]

Figuring out which of the brothers has said more awful things to the other is another case of hairsplitting, IMO. Sam has said awful things to Dean. Dean has said awful things to Sam. Sometimes, they were supernaturally influenced, to various degrees. Both have often apologized, to an extent. Both have amply proven their love for each other in a number of ways. Who said the worst thing in the rightest mind doesn't really matter all that much.

[Reganne]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

True, but Dean I always felt that statement was directed more toward Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture than the Nurse.   Sam practically ripped a woman's throat out with his teeth.  That was Sam straight up jonesing for a hit, since Ruby left him high and dry.  Even Dean flinched when Sam stood up with all the blood all over him. 

I went back and looked up the dialogue

I thought what Dean was saying was that if Sam knew what he was doing was wrong but he did it anyway than that makes him a monster. He even tried to give Sam an out and say it wasn't him.

Whatever it was directed at, it was still a harsh statement to hear from your brother.  Probably not the best choice of words to say to someone who is going through some type of addiction IMO.  Not saying Dean is a bad person for this or anything.  TBH, the show would be boring if the two characters were perfect all the time and said the perfect things.  Both brothers have said hurtful things to each other in order to move the plot along.

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Exactly! I do believe from his actions in Taxi Driver Benny genuinely saved Cas' life for Dean sake. However, prior to that Dean (and the viewers) had no real way of knowing with one hundred certainty whether it was a genuine act, or simply done as a way to earn Dean's trust. 

For me, Benny demonstrated his loyalty was real just after Dean resurrected him.  If Benny was only using Dean to get out of purgatory then it would have been in his best interest to get rid of Dean, since Dean warned him what would happen if he didn't stay on the straight and narrow.  When Dean went in for hug, Benny had clear access to his throat.

Its not like anyone was looking for Dean if Benny left him for dead on the side of the road.

Edited May 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[CluelessDrifter]

4 hours ago, Reganne said:

Whatever it was directed at, it was still a harsh statement to hear from your brother.  Probably not the best choice of words to say to someone who is going through some type of addiction IMO.  Not saying Dean is a bad person for this or anything.  TBH, the show would be boring if the two characters were perfect all the time and said the perfect things.  Both brothers have said hurtful things to each other in order to move the plot along.

But in my opinion it was an accurate statement, hurtful or not.  I know it was said because of what he saw Sam do previously, but Sam proved he was a monster with the nurse after he left Dean.  It was an addiction that was every bit as threatening to human life as a monster's blood lust.  In their world, that made Sam a monster.  Add to that, that Sam's eyes also went black when he killed Lilith.  That wasn't meant to be a good thing either.

All that being said, I don't actually think Dean calling Sam a monster was the most hurtful thing he said to Sam in that exchange.  It was repeating John's words of 'You walk out that door, don't ever come back.'  Sometimes the hurtful things we say are just as hurtful to the ones saying them as to the person hearing them, and I think that was one of those instances. And unless you've dealt with someone you are close to being an addict, you don't really know where Dean was coming from after a year of Sam lying to him and sneaking around behind his back, or what it's like to not be able to get through to an addict even though you can see what it's doing to them.  Eventually, you have to realize they are the ones who are in charge of their addiction and recovery, and you have to cut them off until they get clean, or it will drag you down with them.  If you do know what that's like, then I'm surprised you don't see where Dean was coming from in that scene.  

As an aside, I really liked that when Sam said he needed to take a step back from hunting at the end of Good God Y'all, Dean acknowledged that he knew Sam was sorry, but he agreed that they needed to take a step back, because he was more worried about Sam relapsing than doing the job right.  It's a very real concern for anyone who knows a recovering addict, and it's not something that's good for either party.  I also felt for Dean when Sam relapsed later in season 5.  That's another very real thing that happens, and it does feel like you'll never get out from under that cycle when it does.

Edited May 8, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

Quote

UO here, I'm sure - but I've thought about this while rewatching parts of S5 and S6.  Sam's hell was worse than Dean's.  That's not saying Dean's was a walk in the park.  I mean, I sure don't want to do it.  But Sam was in the freakin' Cage with Lucifer and Michael.  The Cage has been acknowledged (even before S5) to be much worse than regular hell - by Crowley, Lucifer, and even God.  

This was another notch in the "anything Dean can do, Sam can do better" belt. Because of course Dean`s hell was suddenly Disneyland and Sam`s was so much worse. Anything that happens to Sam is just so much more significant and important and weighty. And where there had been a lot of bruhaha over "40 years are so over the top" for Dean, that turned into an almost gleeful "see, Sam was there for 5000 years and he never broke" in fandom. As if the latter wasn`t even more ridiculously over the top.  

The narrative took Dean not breaking for thirty years under gruesome torture which would actually be a feat of strength and systematically turned it into a sign how weak he was. John never broke, Sam`s hell was so much worse. It`s only referenced now - if it ever is - how Dean tortured in hell, never that he was tortured. And oh, of course solitary for six weeks is now worse than his hell. Was it even possible to undermine the character anymore? I don`t think so.

I`ll forever be bitter over how the show handled their respective hell experiences. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This was another notch in the "anything Dean can do, Sam can do better" belt. Because of course Dean`s hell was suddenly Disneyland and Sam`s was so much worse. Anything that happens to Sam is just so much more significant and important and weighty. And where there had been a lot of bruhaha over "40 years are so over the top" for Dean, that turned into an almost gleeful "see, Sam was there for 5000 years and he never broke" in fandom. As if the latter wasn`t even more ridiculously over the top.  

The narrative took Dean not breaking for thirty years under gruesome torture which would actually be a feat of strength and systematically turned it into a sign how weak he was. John never broke, Sam`s hell was so much worse. It`s only referenced now - if it ever is - how Dean tortured in hell, never that he was tortured. And oh, of course solitary for six weeks is now worse than his hell. Was it even possible to undermine the character anymore? I don`t think so.

I`ll forever be bitter over how the show handled their respective hell experiences. 

Standing up and cheering for you saying this so well!! We are in Season 12 and Show is still hitting us over the head with Sam went to hell. When was the last time we heard anything about Dean and hell. If it wasn't for Jensen throwing in a hesitation at the top of the stairs when he went to save Sam, you would never know he was going back for the first time. I really don't understand the logic of Show doing such a horrible job with such a hugely popular character.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And where there had been a lot of bruhaha over "40 years are so over the top" for Dean, that turned into an almost gleeful "see, Sam was there for 5000 years and he never broke"

I agree that Dean's hell-time has been minimized (as has Sam's, for that matter - anyone who had spent as much time in hell as Sam OR Dean should have severe, lasting trauma that goes well beyond what we saw, which is why I hate that the show made the duration of their hell-time so exaggerated), but Sam didn't have the opportunity to "break", so we have no idea how long he would have held out before agreeing to torture souls. 

[DittyDotDot]

As I've said many times before, I think both their hell experiences were equally as horrifying to the person experiencing them. It's just not something that can be compared, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

As I've said many times before, I think both their hell experiences were equally as horrifying to the person experiencing them. It's just not something that can be compared, IMO.

The show had no problem minimizing Dean's treatment and acting like it was no big deal.  There was Jensen's line about his hell being Disneyland, as opposed  to just having Dean say something like,  "I know what you'll be in for."  I also remember s6 comic con with Gamble talking about just how much worse Sam had it.

 

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

(as has Sam's, for that matter

I disagree Sam's time in hell has been minimized.  It spanned two years with two storylines.  Including an episode that took place all in Sam's mind where he got to confront his souless and hell self.  We got On the Head of A Pin and as great as that ep was, Alasitair ended up geting better of Dean whereas Sam got to kill him.  Then last season they made several references to Sam's hell while ignoring Dean's and Sam even got a direct confrontation with Lucifer.

We basically got 3 episodes (seems to be a pattern) of Dean talking about his hell, then he got told to suck it up and stop whining  about it.