“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

59 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Sam can still separate the two words Hunting and Life into two actually distinct and separate words, whereas with Dean they are one and the same thing AKA for Dean is Hunting IS Life and vice versa.

IA with this, but I'm not sure that Dean doesn't still *want* a normal life, just that he's convinced that he can't have it.  His "apple-pie" experience with Lisa wasn't a good example to him, IMO, because he was there more or less against his will (because he'd promised Sam), semi-crazed with grief, and trying desperately to rescue his brother from Hell.  And IA that he can't just give up hunting while there are still monsters out there (and especially if Sam and/or Mary are still in potential danger).  He *is* a hunter, by nature and upbringing.  But the time he spent trying to balance hunting and life with Lisa after Sam came back convinced him, I think, that it wouldn't work--in between the job "making him into someone who's not fit to sit at their table," and the fact that he *did* bring danger/demons right to their door, made him believe, right or wrong, that it's too dangerous for him to have a normal life.  

Sam, OTOH, had two good experiences with "normal life," (even though his time with Jess ended badly...to put it mildly).  But that didn't stop him from settling down with Amelia, without worrying about supernatural dangers finding them.  So to me, it's not that one or the other doesn't *want* a normal life, it's that Sam still believes he can have one (even while hunting, as he said about "settling down, maybe with a hunter, someone who understands the life,") and Dean doesn't.  

[AwesomO4000]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If it's still a factor even for a moment for Dean then IMO he'll forever think he's 80% crap.

Well, that would mean for me then that Dean can never change or have character growth. Because if God, himself, giving you the responsibility to keep the world safe doesn't tell you that you have worth... well, let's just say that I think nothing will, and for me someone who thought that would - for me - get annoying after a while, but that's just me.

After a while, you just have to forgive yourself and accept that maybe all of these other people who love and respect you - including God* - just might be right. Maybe you're not crap. And if Dean truly doesn't think he can make amends, why is he bothering trying? It seems counter-intuitive and pointless. He could've stayed in purgatory and felt "free."

Ehn, as I said: I love Dean, but I just don't "get" Dean like I "get" Sam.

* I mean he's freakin' God!

Edited March 14, 2017 by AwesomO4000
Pick a subject "person" and stick with it. Geesh.

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, that would mean for me then that Dean can never change or have character growth. Because if God, himself, giving you the responsibility to keep the world safe doesn't tell you that you have worth... well, let's just say that I think nothing will, and for me someone who thought that would - for me - get annoying after a while, but that's just me.

After a while, you just have to forgive yourself and accept that maybe all of these other people who love and respect me - including God* - just might be right. Maybe I'm not crap. And if Dean truly doesn't think he can make amends, why is he bothering trying? It seems counter-intuitive and pointless. He could've stayed in purgatory and felt "free."

Ehn, as I said: I love Dean, but I just don't "get" Dean like I "get" Sam.

* I mean he's freakin' God!

That's pretty much the same thing I said about Sam not believing he's been redeemed.  He's been told, over and over, that he has.  *He's* the one (or maybe you are)  who's interpreting tones of voice/expressions to say "I didn't really mean what I was saying, you're not really absolved after all."  (And yes, I'm ignoring Chuck's s. 11 speech, as I said before...)  

So..."forgive yourself and accept that maybe all these other people who are telling me I'm forgiven are right" goes for Sam, too.  

I like Sam (most of the time) but, *Hi, I'm Ahrtee.  I'm neurotic and insecure with longstanding self-worth issues and I "get" Dean more.*  

ETA: No snark  intended.

Edited March 14, 2017 by ahrtee

[Airmid]

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, that would mean for me then that Dean can never change or have character growth. Because if God, himself, giving you the responsibility to keep the world safe doesn't tell you that you have worth... well, let's just say that I think nothing will, and for me someone who thought that would - for me - get annoying after a while, but that's just me.

After a while, you just have to forgive yourself and accept that maybe all of these other people who love and respect you - including God* - just might be right. Maybe you're not crap. And if Dean truly doesn't think he can make amends, why is he bothering trying? It seems counter-intuitive and pointless. He could've stayed in purgatory and felt "free."

Ehn, as I said: I love Dean, but I just don't "get" Dean like I "get" Sam.

* I mean he's freakin' God!

In some ways, I don't think it means a hell of a lot to Dean if Guck believes in him or not by the point they finally met without any pretenses last season. By this point what has Dean seen? His family has been used as pawns (though their own decisions did help that along but still doesn't justify it) the existence of monsters, the allowing of heaven to let the apocalypse roll on through, the fact that Guck ditched heaven in the first place, heavenly wars and the release of the kraken, all of the angels being cast from heaven by Metatron and it goes on and on.

By that point, I doubt Dean has respect for Guck, not like he did for say Death. In fact, it's interesting that Chuck is all upset with the Winchesters because of the MoC being undone but he could have lifted one finger and merely stopped the spell from being cast. Moved the Book of the Damned away from Rowena, gave a holy vision to Sam to get him to stop. Pretty much anything but he didn't and still seems to want to pass the buck to the Winchesters.

I think the real question is has Dean's family ever given him consistent absolution? Back in S7 when Cas has no memory he does tell Dean that he's only human, that everything isn't on his shoulders. In S8 when Cas returns from Purgatory he tells Dean that he can't save everyone. But these times are pretty few and far between. I don't think anyone has ever sat him down and said 'you were in hell Dean, it's what hell does. You can't change it, God gave you absolution and a ticket into heaven and you need to stop doing this to yourself.'

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Dean may have once upon a time wondered about living a normal life, but he let it go entirely after living with Lisa and Ben for that one year and we were clearly shown even within that year that the normal life would never, ever be for him, IMO. Whereas with Sam, they have continually and consistently shown us a Sam who doesn't just go back to trying for the "normal" life, but they've also shown him to be someone who consistently and actually wants to go back to it and who, again, who wants to have some semblance of "normal" in his life even if he has finally accepted hunting as his calling/what he's supposed to be doing.

Sam has had more opportunity for a normal life.  Dean did his best when Sam was a child to protect him from knowing what their father did.  And Sam went to school, had a girlfriend, had normal friends, etc., so he's had a taste of normalcy.  Dean has never had that.  He's been immersed in this life since he was 4 years old.  It's really all he's known.  The year spent with Lisa doesn't really count to me.  While I know he cared for her and Ben, he was trying the entire time to find a way to get Sam back.  Not to mention having just averted the Apocalypse.  That's really not a fair opportunity for someone to just relax and enjoy domesticity.  I'm not sure that Dean loves the hunting life, or whether it's where he's the most comfortable because it's all he's ever known.  

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, that would mean for me then that Dean can never change or have character growth. Because if God, himself, giving you the responsibility to keep the world safe doesn't tell you that you have worth... well, let's just say that I think nothing will, and for me someone who thought that would - for me - get annoying after a while, but that's just me.

Those are mutually exclusive things.

Giving someone a responsibility to protect humanity isn't the same as making them feel worthy as a human being. I mean to me that's just another version of Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument but from Guck. 

He told Dean that he thought he could take care of Earth. IMO that's just shifting God's responsibilities to Dean. Of course, a little bit later Guck is telling Dean he's tainted. With no explanation of what that meant. Did God ever tell Dean he was loved? I'm not being snarky.  I can't remember.

And sadly, I think Dean may not be able to shake the sense that he is 80% crap. That doesn't mean the character can't grow in other ways. That doesn't mean the character can't do good things or be interesting. Or that they can't seek to be free of the shackles of guilt and shame.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam has had more opportunity for a normal life.

I don't know, I think Dean has had the same opportunity for a normal life, he just never chose to go down that road. He could've went to college himself or did something else after Sam left for college, but he didn't want to leave John. Just because Sam made the choice to go and Dean didn't doesn't mean they didn't have the same opportunities. They're just different people who made different choices, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's pretty much the same thing I said about Sam not believing he's been redeemed.  He's been told, over and over, that he has.  *He's* the one (or maybe you are)  who's interpreting tones of voice/expressions to say "I didn't really mean what I was saying, you're not really absolved after all."  (And yes, I'm ignoring Chuck's s. 11 speech, as I said before...)  

So..."forgive yourself and accept that maybe all these other people who are telling me I'm forgiven are right" goes for Sam, too.

But I disagree that every one told Sam over and over that he didn't need to be redeemed - in season 5 that's all he heard. "You started the apocalypse" and "Sam, of course, is an abomination." So he felt he needed redemption - I can see why. The second time was in season 8 when he was burning up with fever and half crazy from the trials and wasn't quite thinking right - not to mention: Carver. I honestly don't remember any other times since in season 7 he said that what he did in season 5 - the first case - did redeem him, so done. Sam believed he was redeemed and forgiven, and that didn't really change until Carver and the fever.

But even when Sam thinks he's "tainted," I don't think Sam thinks he's crap. I also don't think that even though Sam sometimes thinks he's "tainted" that that means he can't overcome it - I think he does... and I actually think that's how he got talked into the demon blood thing... trying to change his being tainted into something  positive and him believing he could do that and keep a handle on it. I think Sam is okay with himself for the most part and forgives himself.

And for me there is a difference there. One is feeling that something was maybe done to you and you can try to overcome it. The other is thinking you're inherently crap and nothing can be done to fix it.

For me, it's kind of hard to have both the flaw of being prideful and thinking you're crap. I think Sam has the former - pride - and not the latter. I think Sam can think he's "tainted" without him thinking that he's necessarily crappy as a person, but it's something that was done to him that he can overcome if he tries. In other words, for Sam the "redemption" means something, so he's going to go for it.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I think Dean has had the same opportunity for a normal life, he just never chose to go down that road. He could've went to college himself or did something else after Sam left for college, but he didn't want to leave John. Just because Sam made the choice to go and Dean didn't doesn't mean they didn't have the same opportunities. They're just different people who made different choices, IMO.

I don't think it was that simple.  We saw Dean as a teenager wanting a different life, but he couldn't leave Sam on his own with John.  I think he knew that if he did that, Sam would then be stuck where Dean was, and he couldn't do that to him.  Dean wanted Sam to be a kid for as long as possible. By the time Sam was old enough to leave for college, I think it was too late for Dean to walk away.  

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Giving someone a responsibility to protect humanity isn't the same as making them feel worthy as a human being. I mean to me that's just another version of Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument but from Guck. 

He told Dean that he thought he could take care of Earth. IMO that's just shifting God's responsibilities to Dean. Of course, a little bit later Guck is telling Dean he's tainted. With no explanation of what that meant.

The last exchange God and Dean had was this:

Quote

Dean: What about us? What about Earth?
Chuck: Earth will be fine. It's got you... and Sam.

To me this is Chuck telling Dean that he has confidence enough in Dean to leave and let Dean take care of earth, his creation. Yes, it's responsibility, but it's also showing a huge amount of trust and faith in Dean. He's telling Dean that he has confidence that earth will be fine in Dean's hands. I can't see God putting such faith in someone who didn't deserve it. My opinion only on that.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think it was that simple.  We saw Dean as a teenager wanting a different life, but he couldn't leave Sam on his own with John.  I think he knew that if he did that, Sam would then be stuck where Dean was, and he couldn't do that to him.  Dean wanted Sam to be a kid for as long as possible. By the time Sam was old enough to leave for college, I think it was too late for Dean to walk away.  

Other than me not agreeing with the interpretation that Dean deciding to stay was all about Sam, whether or not Dean felt he couldn't leave doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there for him to do so. Nobody held a gun to his head; he was just as free to walk away as Sam was, he just chose to stay. He may have felt like he had no other option at the time, but that doesn't mean the option wasn't there.

However, I believe the main reason Dean stayed was for Dean and had little to do with John or Sam. Dean liked the life. Always has. And, I agree with Zachariah, Dean will find his way back to the life no matter what. Not because it's what his dad raised him to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

[DeeDee79]

17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes, he was. It's one of the reasons I stayed with Law & Order so long. Also Briscoe (played by Jerry Orbach). The writing on the show was generally good, but without those characters bringing it to life, I wouldn't have stuck with it until the end.

I'm right there with you on this! After Jerry Orbach's death I didn't enjoy any of the revolving partners brought in for Green and but I still watched for Jack.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

To me this is Chuck telling Dean that he has confidence enough in Dean to leave and let Dean take care of earth, his creation. Yes, it's responsibility, but it's also showing a huge amount of trust and faith in Dean. He's telling Dean that he has confidence that earth will be fine in Dean's hands. I can't see God putting such faith in someone who didn't deserve it. My opinion only on that.

I think we see this from different viewpoints because of how we view Guck. What you see is showing faith by giving Dean the responsibility, I see as Guck shirking his responsibilities to humanity and being smart enough to give it to Dean, given that Dean has proven himself capable more than once to save humanity.

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Other than me not agreeing with the interpretation that Dean deciding to stay was all about Sam, whether or not Dean felt he couldn't leave doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there for him to do so. Nobody held a gun to his head; he was just as free to walk away as Sam was, he just chose to stay. He may have felt like he had no other option at the time, but that doesn't mean the option wasn't there.

I think it's pretty difficult for a teenager to leave their siblings behind in a difficult situation. No it's not an actual gun to his head, but it is a big emotional gun filled with guilt and an unhealthy sense of responsibility to Sam. Once Dean got older sure he was making a choice, but how much choice does a 15 year old REALLY have when their is a younger sibling involved and they have a father as crappy as John?

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Other than me not agreeing with the interpretation that Dean deciding to stay was all about Sam, whether or not Dean felt he couldn't leave doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there for him to do so. Nobody held a gun to his head; he was just as free to walk away as Sam was, he just chose to stay. He may have felt like he had no other option at the time, but that doesn't mean the option wasn't there.

However, I believe the main reason Dean stayed was for Dean and had little to do with John or Sam. Dean liked the life. Always has. And, I agree with Zachariah, Dean will find his way back to the life no matter what. Not because it's what his dad raised him to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

I completely disagree, but that's fine.  When Dean looks out the window at his father's car and see's Sam sitting there, he makes his decision that he can't leave him.  I absolutely think that decision was all about Sam and not about Dean.  I think Dean has always felt responsible for everyone...soothing his mother when she was upset, being a good little soldier for his father, and keeping Sam safe.  Dean rarely, if ever, puts Dean first.  So while he may not have had a gun held to his head, he was never really free to walk away, IMO.

[companionenvy]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I believe the main reason Dean stayed was for Dean and had little to do with John or Sam. Dean liked the life. Always has. And, I agree with Zachariah, Dean will find his way back to the life no matter what. Not because it's what his dad raised him to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

I disagree with this. When Dean was at the boy's home for the summer, the show made it pretty explicit that he left primarily because of Sam. Sixteen-year-old Dean, at least for those couple of months, was thriving in a "normal life." Later, he was thrilled to find himself living a normal life in the djinn-world, and seemed pretty comfortable in the corporate context of Its a Terrible Life. His version of heaven did not include hunting. Even his delight in the domestic comforts of the bunker somewhat qualifies the image of Dean as a gleeful hunter who doesn't, on some level, yearn for a different kind of life.

I do think that Dean's personality is more naturally compatible with aspects of the hunter lifestyle than Sam's. Dean likes bars, and hooking up with dive waitresses (although, we haven't seen evidence of many hookups since the early seasons), and riding around in the Impala, and getting his hands dirty in the heat of battle. Those things don't define him, but they are a part of him, and a part that, on a day to day level, probably does make hunting more enjoyable for him than for Sam. It also allows him to more easily connect with other hunters, and - under the right (or wrong) circumstances -- more easily step into the role of single-minded killer. Dean isn't at all like Gordon Walker on the most fundamental level, but he was initially drawn to him in a way that Sam couldn't be. 

At the end of the day, I think Dean and Sam will both always be drawn back into the life because they know too much not to. There will always be that one more case that brings them out of any retirement they seek. But I also think both of them recognize that there are limitations and drawbacks to the life they lead, even if they also generally think being able to help people is enough of a tradeoff to make it worth it. Essentially, they will choose the hunting life -- but they wish, on some level, they didn't have to. 

[Airmid]

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

To me this is Chuck telling Dean that he has confidence enough in Dean to leave and let Dean take care of earth, his creation. Yes, it's responsibility, but it's also showing a huge amount of trust and faith in Dean. He's telling Dean that he has confidence that earth will be fine in Dean's hands. I can't see God putting such faith in someone who didn't deserve it. My opinion only on that.

Something that always bothered me about that exchange is that Chuck never, ever asked Dean what he wanted. At the very least Amara tried to do something right by him and give him back a person he loved very much. I doubt she wanted him hurt and while she didn't ask him what he needed she didn't dump a universe worth of responsibility on his shoulders. Plus she's more forgivable after having being locked up for countless years, alone and in the dark unlike Chuck.

Chuck hands over the keys, so to speak, and doesn't fix anything on his way out. Doesn't say bye to Luci, heal him or give him a vessel, let alone anything else with his son he's supposedly sorry for. Lucifer's messed up, we knew that long before the two had their little chat. Yet Chuck ditches him again. While I don't like Lucifer at least I can see his reasoning in that Dad just told him what he wanted to hear so he'd help. Seeing that Lucifer was given something that corrupted him, locked up in the dark like Amara, had his most loved brother sent to kill him and finally got an 'oops' before being abandoned all over again - yeah, I can see the bitterness and the crazy. Just wish they didn't make him into a whiner.

And this is not even getting into fixing the damage to heaven or helping with the untold damage of the last little earthly crisis.

Dean's just been there holding the entire mess together. That's it. He's proven that him and Sam and Cas will somehow crazy glue it all together in a hail Mary save and that's the end of it. Somehow there's no one else that's qualified instead of a very tired, very worn down human. It's pretty much like John all over again - passing on all of the responsibility no matter if Dean was equipped to deal with it. Now the stakes are just way higher.

So, no, I can't see that helping Dean feel redeemed or worthwhile in any way given his history. He's just the shmuck closest to the door who got caught with his pants down before Chuck peaced out.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I completely disagree, but that's fine.  When Dean looks out the window at his father's car and see's Sam sitting there, he makes his decision that he can't leave him.  I absolutely think that decision was all about Sam and not about Dean.  I think Dean has always felt responsible for everyone...soothing his mother when she was upset, being a good little soldier for his father, and keeping Sam safe.  Dean rarely, if ever, puts Dean first.  So while he may not have had a gun held to his head, he was never really free to walk away, IMO.

Well it can definitely be interpreted that way, I just see it that it's not Sam that Dean sees out that window, but the his life and he's been missing it. But, it still doesn't change the fact that the opportunity was there regardless if Dean felt it wasn't. I have no problem with Dean choosing to stay even if it was for Sam, but it is still his choice. Whatever his reasons for staying, the opportunity was there for him to go.

13 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I disagree with this. When Dean was at the boy's home for the summer, the show made it pretty explicit that he left primarily because of Sam.

I disagree that it was even slightly explicit.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"Sam, of course, is an abomination."

Just want to chime in to say maybe we can overlook this because Castiel was the one that made this statement. Sometimes he seems to have a knack for blurting out insulting comments that most people would attempt to soften somewhat. Two instances come to mind while speaking to Dean: "You are not the burnt and broken shell of a man that I believed you to be." and "One extremely messed up human to another, you could explain why you murdered her only friend." Not discounting your observation, just consider the source :)

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I disagree that it was even slightly explicit.

Just curious. I'm not being snarky either.

When Dean is getting ready to go on the date, and then Sonny comes in and tells him that his dad is there to get him, what do you think made Dean cry?

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well it can definitely be interpreted that way, I just see it that it's not Sam that Dean sees out that window, but the his life and he's been missing it. But, it still doesn't change the fact that the opportunity was there regardless if Dean felt it wasn't. I have no problem with Dean choosing to stay even if it was for Sam, but it is still his choice. Whatever his reasons for staying, the opportunity was there for him to go.

My point was that Sam didn't have the same anchors holding him back.  Dean was the one that John relied on for the most part.  And Sam didn't feel responsible for Dean.  So he was freer to just go do what he wanted to do and not really look back.  He could get pissed at his father and just walk away and never really give a second thought to the fact that he was leaving Dean to deal with all of that by himself.  Dean couldn't or wouldn't do that.  There's just more to it than simply having the opportunity, IMO.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Whatever his reasons for staying, the opportunity was there for him to go.

The same way abused children often lie to stay with their abusive families.  The same way victims of domestic abuse often "choose" to stay with their abusers.  

Not that I'm saying Dean was directly abused, just that his ability to make choices based on his own needs instead of his family's had been compromised from an early age.

And, BTW, I *DO* feel  that it was pretty explicitly shown that Dean left Sonny's (and his date) *only* because of Sam.  But YMMV.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think we see this from different viewpoints because of how we view Guck. What you see is showing faith by giving Dean the responsibility, I see as Guck shirking his responsibilities to humanity and being smart enough to give it to Dean, given that Dean has proven himself capable more than once to save humanity.

I agree. He was willing to let Amara kill him and let whatever happened to all of humanity in the process so him passing the buck to Dean was all about getting the weight off of his own shoulders.

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Other than me not agreeing with the interpretation that Dean deciding to stay was all about Sam, whether or not Dean felt he couldn't leave doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there for him to do so. Nobody held a gun to his head; he was just as free to walk away as Sam was, he just chose to stay. He may have felt like he had no other option at the time, but that doesn't mean the option wasn't there.

However, I believe the main reason Dean stayed was for Dean and had little to do with John or Sam. Dean liked the life. Always has. And, I agree with Zachariah, Dean will find his way back to the life no matter what. Not because it's what his dad raised him to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

I don't think its that simple, as Dean has a choice he and he chose not to take it.   IMO, Dean's  life since he was four has been about filling a role.  He was solider, son, brother, caretaker, etc.  The closest thing he ever had in his life about side of hunting was at Sonny's.  We saw Dean flourish there. Good grades, wresting champions, friend, etc.  Then John showed up because he needed Dean for a job.  Needed being the key word here.  I do think there was a part of Dean that wanted to stay   But then there was also a part that wanted to be with his family.  (Major props here to Dylan Everett for portraying Dean's confusion so well here..  The deciding factor was when he saw Sam. 

There was also this conversation with Sam:

Quote

 

YOUNG ROBIN
What's your dad do?

YOUNG DEAN
(pauses)
Boring stuff.

YOUNG ROBIN
Do you like it?

YOUNG DEAN
shakes his head NO
No, not really. But my dad expects me to follow in his footsteps. So I've kind of gotten used to it.

He seems resigned.

YOUNG ROBIN
Yeah. I - I get it. My pops wants me to take over the diner? But that's not happening. So, what do you really want to do?

DEAN hesitates.

YOUNG ROBIN (continues)
I want to be a photographer and see the world, go to strange lands, eat crazy food.

YOUNG DEAN
(takes a breath)
I want to be a rock star, but... I also really like cars.

YOUNG ROBIN
Being a mechanic seems rough.

YOUNG DEAN
What? No, no. Not at all. Cars are freaking cool as hell. Fixing them is like … a puzzle, and he best part is your not responsible for them anymore

Quote

 

 

 

This is further backed up in Skin
 

Quote

 

SHAPESHIFTER: He’s sure got issues with you. You got to go to college. He had to stay home. I mean, I had to stay home. With Dad. You don’t think I had dreams of my own? But Dad needed me. Where the hell were you?

SAM: Where is my brother? (The shapeshifter leans in close to SAM.)

SHAPESHIFTER: I am your brother. See, deep down, I’m just jealous. You got friends. You could have a life. Me? I know I’m a freak. And sooner or later, everybody’s gonna leave me. (He backs away.)

 

Bolding mine. 

Dean's sense of responsibility runs deep. We even saw this before Mary died when he felt the need to comfort his mother over John.   If Dean did walk away and something happened to Sam or John, Dean would never have been able to live with himself.   So it is true that no one forced him to stay, Dean himself probably didn't feel this was an option given the circumstances.  Growing up, Dean was very much in the parental role and I think that extended to John as well

Quote

JOHN
You know, when you were a kid, I'd come home from a hunt, and after what I'd seen, I'd be, I'd be wrecked. And you, you'd come up to me and you, you'd put your hand on my shoulder and you'd look me in the eye and you'd... You'd say "It's okay, Dad"
(pauses)
Dean, I'm sorry.

There is also his abandoment issues.  When Sam left John cut him off.  Dean wouldn't want to risk that, due t his abandoment issues.  Even when John ditched him, Dean still tried to full the good son role. I don't deny that Dean likes hunting, but I think his reasons for staying were far more complicated.  And that leaving or the option to leave wasn't black and white.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When Dean is getting ready to go on the date, and then Sonny comes in and tells him that his dad is there to get him, what do you think made Dean cry?

I didn't see Dean cry at all. He looked out the window and smiled when he saw the car, as I recall. My take, "Hello life, I didn't even realize I had missed you." ::shrugs::

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

My point was that Sam didn't have the same anchors holding him back.

Didn't he though? Sam was walking away from everything knew all by himself and being told to never come back. I highly doubt Sam took that lightly. And just because Dean took on a parental role for Sam doesn't mean that Sam didn't feel any responsibility for Dean either. John put just as much pressure on Sam as he did Dean, just in different ways. They both had the same reasons holding them back and they both had the same reasons to leave.

I'm just saying that just because Dean felt like he had a responsibility to his family doesn't mean that he didn't also have an actual desire to stay for himself either.

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And, BTW, I *DO* feel  that it was pretty explicitly shown that Dean left Sonny's (and his date) *only* because of Sam.  But YMMV.

And, that's a fair interpretation, it's not my interpretation, but I don't think anything was all that explicit.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't see Dean cry at all. He looked out the window and smiled when he saw the car, as I recall. My take, "Hello life, I didn't even realize I had missed you." ::shrugs::

Watch it again.  When Sonny comes in to tell him John is outside, he blinks back tears.  When he looks out the window and sees Sam, he has tears in his eyes, and is smiling through them.  Even the transcript notes it:

SONNY
Yeah. Look, about that, Dean, your old man's outside …. and, man, he's really something. I tried to tell him what a big night it was for you, Dean, and ask him if he could come back later, but he just said to tell you he had a job, said you'd know what that means.

YOUNG DEAN is nodding, looking emotional but trying to tough it out. He exhales, looks at picture of himself and YOUNG ROBIN, holding back tears. SONNY watches him.

SONNY (continues)
You know, after I got out of jail, this place gave me a second chance, and it's done the same for you, too.

YOUNG DEAN nods.

SONNY (continues)
So if you want, I'll stick my neck out for you, and I'll fight for you to stay.

YOUNG DEAN, still speechless, is choking back tears. JOHN's car horn honks outside. YOUNG DEAN goes to the window to look, and sees a very young-looking SAM holding a plane or spaceship out the window of the car. YOUNG DEAN laughs, choked-up, and turns back toward SONNY, holding out his hand. There's a tear trickling out his eye as they shake hands.

YOUNG DEAN
Sonny... ...thank you – for everything. But I have to go.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ahrtee
added more from transcript

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't see Dean cry at all. He looked out the window and smiled when he saw the car, as I recall. My take, "Hello life, I didn't even realize I had missed you."

Okay maybe he didn't full on cry but was tearing up when Sonny came to tell him that John was there. He tried to smile and be strong.  He had tears when he looked out the window at Sam and then laughed through his tears when he saw Sam playing with the airplane. That is precisely why I think it was Sam that prompted Dean to go back. 

From the SuperWiki transcript

Quote

YOUNG DEAN is nodding, looking emotional but trying to tough it out. He exhales, looks at picture of himself and YOUNG ROBIN, holding back tears. SONNY watches him.

SONNY (continues)
You know, after I got out of jail, this place gave me a second chance, and it's done the same for you, too.

YOUNG DEAN nods.

SONNY (continues)
So if you want, I'll stick my neck out for you, and I'll fight for you to stay.

YOUNG DEAN, still speechless, is choking back tears. JOHN's car horn honks outside. YOUNG DEAN goes to the window to look, and sees a very young-looking SAM holding a plane or spaceship out the window of the car. YOUNG DEAN laughs, choked-up, and turns back toward SONNY, holding out his hand. There's a tear trickling out his eye as they shake hands.

[catrox14]

Here is the scene.

I see a pretty broken up young!Dean being pulled apart.

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Didn't he though? Sam was walking away from everything knew all by himself and being told to never come back. I highly doubt Sam took that lightly. And just because Dean took on a parental role for Sam doesn't mean that Sam didn't feel any responsibility for Dean either. John put just as much pressure on Sam as he did Dean, just in different ways. They both had the same reasons holding them back and they both had the same reasons to leave.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I just don't see it this way at all. 

[ILoveReading]

39 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

Didn't he though? Sam was walking away from everything knew all by himself and being told to never come back. I highly doubt Sam took that lightly. And just because Dean took on a parental role for Sam doesn't mean that Sam didn't feel any responsibility for Dean either. John put just as much pressure on Sam as he did Dean, just in different ways. They both had the same reasons holding them back and they both had the same reasons to leave.

I've always felt that Sam's and Dean's childhoods were effectively summed up in John's storage locker in Bad Day at Black Rock.   John's keep sake of Sam was a soccer trophy and with Dean it was a sawed off shotgun. 

I'm not saying Sam's childhood was easy or idyllic but I do think he had it easier than Dean because he had Dean.   It's canon that in addition to soccer Sam was in a play (Shadows) and a Mathlete (Metamorphosis).   It's not a story book childhood but he at least did get to partake in some normal child hood activities.  I doubt John supported that.   

Dean was busy making sure there was enough food.  

We also saw that Sam had outside influences encouaging him to go his own way.  (The teacher in After School Special and Sully). 
 

From Scarecrow:

Quote

 

DEAN: You’ve always known what you want. And you go after it. You stand up to Dad. And you always have. Hell, I wish I—anyway….I admire that about you. I’m proud of you, Sammy.

SAM: I don’t even know what to say.

 

From Darkside
 

Quote

 

DEAN: Seriously? I mean this is a happy memory for you?

SAM: I don’t know. I mean, I was on my own. I finally got away from Dad.

DEAN: (turning away) Yeah, he wasn’t the only one you got away from.

SAM: Dean, I’m sorry. I just, uh…

DEAN: I know. You didn’t, you didn’t think of it like that.

SAM: Dean!

DEAN: C’mon! Your heaven is somebody else’s Thanksgiving. Okay. It’s bailing on your family. What do you want me to say?

SAM: Man, I never got the crusts cut off my PB & J. I just don’t look at family the way you do.

DEAN: Yeah, but I’m your family.

 

Dean has to point out to Sam that when he walked away he also walked away from Dean too, and Sam admits he doesn't view family the way Dean does. Even if Sam didn't pick that memory he didn't deny that it was a happy one for him. 

It doesn't seem like Sam felt that same responsibility toward Dean that Dean did to him.

I do feel under the circumstances, the show has told that Sam had far fewer barriers to cross in order to walk away but we can agree to disagree. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Watch it again.  When Sonny comes in to tell him John is outside, he blinks back tears.  When he looks out the window and sees Sam, he has tears in his eyes, and is smiling through them.  Even the transcript notes it:

I've seen it many times, I'm good.

But, even if I did see it as Dean doing it for Sam, which I don't, I think my point still stands that the choice was there. IMO, Dean didn't want a "normal" life even if there were things he liked about that normal life. I just think the things in is "un-normal" life are more appealing to him ultimately nor do I think Dean would go back and make a different choice at any point in his life.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've seen it many times, I'm good.

But, even if I did see it as Dean doing it for Sam, which I don't, I think my point still stands that the choice was there. IMO, Dean didn't want a "normal" life even if there were things he liked about that normal life. I just think the things in is "un-normal" life are more appealing to him ultimately nor do I think Dean would go back and make a different choice at any point in his life.

Agree to disagree.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I've always felt that Sam's and Dean's childhoods were effectively summed up in John's storage locker in Bad Day at Black Rock.   John's keep sake of Sam was a soccer trophy and with Dean it was a sawed off shotgun. 

Sure, he kept things that were important to each of his sons. Dean was proud of his sawed-off shotgun and Sam was proud of his soccer trophy. If Dean had had an interest in soccer and won a trophy, I think John would've kept that too. I'm not sure how this illustrates Sam's life was rosy compared to Dean's.

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It doesn't seem like Sam felt that same responsibility toward Dean that Dean did to him.

"Seem" being the operative word there, IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, even if I did see it as Dean doing it for Sam, which I don't, I think my point still stands that the choice was there. IMO, Dean didn't want a "normal" life even if there were things he liked about that normal life. I just think the things in is "un-normal" life are more appealing to him ultimately nor do I think Dean would go back and make a different choice at any point in his life.

I guess it depends on the definition of choice.  Yes, physically, he had the option to walk away at any time.  But emotionally he did not.  I agree that at this point in his life he probably wouldn't go back and change anything, other than keeping his mother alive and Sam safe from the YED.  But that's also because he doesn't think in terms of what he needs or what might be best for him.  He never has.

[rue721]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"What Is..." wasn't even real Sam. It was how Dean imagined Sam would be without hunting, but that Sam doesn't exist, because their lives did have hunting. The real Sam was doing all that he could to find Dean, and he did find Dean. The real Sam at the end of the episode assured Dean that what they did to save people was worth it.

That's an interesting point, that Dean's imagined Sam was in pretty stark contrast to the "real" Sam.

I wonder sometimes how Dean sees Sam, TBH. His perspective on him always seems a little odd. Like he simultaneously thinks that Sam is obviously and objectively awesome, and yet also doesn't 100% trust him.

It's less "off" now that they have lived so closely for so long. But I think that he finds Sam a surprisingly difficult read, considering how well they know each other.

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IMO, he does not love hunting in the same way or manner or even to the same extent that Dean does. Their satisfaction with the life is derived from far different aspects of it and most of what Dean loves about it could not or would not ever be able to fit under the umbrella of "normal", IMO-excepting the strong desire to help others, of course.

What do you mean by their satisfaction with the life coming from far different aspects of it, and that what Dean loves could not fit under the umbrella of "normal"? Not snark, honest question.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

When someone expresses concern over Sam doing something, IMO Sam sees it as that questioning his ability to do it. In some cases that might be true but in others, it is not.

For Dean, it is more like that "you are a blunt instrument" or "you are a killer" things. So yes, he will probably have confidence in being able to fulfill the technical requirements of a certain job. But if someone or something chooses a "hero" for a quest or a task, they would look for more than technique, they`d look for a certain value in character. And in that, Dean does not feel confident about himself.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think that Sam is always trying to prove himself. I think he's got this need to prove his worth or justify his existence.

IMO when he's looking to purify himself or he's talking about a "taint," he's talking about something being objectively wrong with him, almost like he's got bad blood or something. By purifying himself IMO he wasn't trying to redeem himself -- more like he was trying to *cure* himself. Like he's got this sickness in him and it's still going to be there no matter how he behaves -- what he needs is a cure, not forgiveness.

With Dean, I think that it's an issue of him not thinking that his outsides match his insides. Dean is excellent at going through the motions or keeping up a good front. Again and again, he will say/do what he thinks he is supposed to, and then get frustrated if Sam doesn't realize it's a facade, or get upset with Sam for not helping him keep up the facade (like with family life stuff), or otherwise reveals himself as very self-aware that he's putting up a front. I actually really like that about Dean (that he's so self-aware). But I think that it makes him weirdly disconnected from himself. I think his self-esteem is OK in the sense that he knows he's competent and personable/smart/etc, but I think that he doesn't feel a very strong sense of self or a strong connection with himself/his POV. IMO that feeling of disconnection is also why he doesn't really take compliments to heart and why he wonders pretty often what/who he is beyond what he does (and whether he's just what he does, and is just a killer or a tool).

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think while Sam has accepted his place is out on the road there is still a part of him (and probably always will be) that craves settling down into a normal life outside hunting. On the other hand, despite all its hardships, Dean likes the hunting life. Even if the opportunity became available to them I don't think he'd be truly happy in a care free apple pie life. 

I think that for Sam, a normal life is validation in a way. I think that he has legitimate worries that he himself is intrinsically incapable of being "normal," so being able to obtain/create a normal life is a triumph in a way. But I don't think he feels any craving for the day-to-day of normal life, really. Once he's proven that he CAN get it, he gives it up to go back to hunting pretty easily. I mean, he decided to go back to hunting after Jessica literally within like a day after her death, he went back to Rufus's cabin after Amelia, etc.

I think that Dean thinks that a normal life is not an option for him for external reasons -- that monsters will come and destroy it, and probably kill everybody besides, like what happened both with Mary and with Lisa/Ben. So IMO Dean seems to consider it irrelevant whether he wants a normal life or not -- in any case, he's not going to have one. I think that he's made peace with that at this point, but I think that he does have more "what ifs" than Sam because he's always been more certain that it's not a possibility for him. He's always known that this is as normal as he's going to get.

I think that Sam would be unbearably restless in a normal life, and would probably end up blowing it up searching for some kind of Meaning-capital-M. And I think that Dean would feel really frustrated and out of control in a normal life. IMO he would feel edgier and edgier.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I think Dean has had the same opportunity for a normal life, he just never chose to go down that road.

 

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I believe the main reason Dean stayed was for Dean and had little to do with John or Sam. Dean liked the life. Always has. And, I agree with Zachariah, Dean will find his way back to the life no matter what. Not because it's what his dad raised him to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

I think that Dean does like the life, but I also think that he thinks that's irrelevant. Like, he'd BETTER like it in any case, and make the best of it, because it's what he's got.

IMO he never really had an option of having a normal life, anyway, because he knew too much. He was in too deep before kindergarten. IMO Sam was naive to think that he ever truly had the option of living a normal life, either.

I mean, Jessica's death didn't ~just happen.~ She died because Sam couldn't be allowed to live a normal life. And Lisa and Ben nearly had their lives destroyed for the same reason. Mary and John's "normal life" was torn to shreds for the same reason, too. Any normalcy these guys ever had was on borrowed time. Dean seems to have grokked that a long time ago (and IMO that's why he tried to give Sam as much of that time as he could -- he was already treating it as precious); I'm not sure about Sam.

Edited March 15, 2017 by rue721

[Airmid]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, he kept things that were important to each of his sons. Dean was proud of his sawed-off shotgun and Sam was proud of his soccer trophy. If Dean had had an interest in soccer and won a trophy, I think John would've kept that too. I'm not sure how this illustrates Sam's life was rosy compared to Dean's.

I wouldn't say Sam's life was rosy but he had a different childhood experience than Dean. Yes they both grew up with a father who was absent half the time but Dean tried really hard to give Sam some sort of normalcy. So Sam having a soccer trophy would be more than likely due to Dean, and Dean taking his brother to practices and cheering him on. Dean was trapped a lot with Sam, fed him, watched over him. charged with always keeping him safe without an outlet really for himself. Just look at Something Wicked, where Dean's a kid going stir crazy after their dad hasn't come back and wants to go to an arcade. What happens? Sam gets attacked by a monster that eats kids and John is pissed and blames him.

That's not Sam's fault and Sam wouldn't want that level of attention but it's become ingrained in Dean to not leave Sam because bad things happen. He didn't get that kind of childhood and I agree, the storage locker really tells the difference between the two of them.

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean has to point out to Sam that when he walked away he also walked away from Dean too, and Sam admits he doesn't view family the way Dean does. Even if Sam didn't pick that memory he didn't deny that it was a happy one for him. 

It doesn't seem like Sam felt that same responsibility toward Dean that Dean did to him.

I do feel under the circumstances, the show has told that Sam had far fewer barriers to cross in order to walk away but we can agree to disagree. 

I don't think Sam felt that level of responsibility because he wasn't the child who was forced to be a parent but that's not necessarily a bad thing because Dean has it to a dangerous level. What felt like smothering to Sam was complete desperation and worry to Dean. He wanted to be like other kids, to not be yelled at or see his brother yelled at (most likely) and that's a very normal, very human kid thing to want. Dean caught the brunt of it from John and feeling like Sam had run away from him and I don't know if he was able to really see why Sam did it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Airmid

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, he kept things that were important to each of his sons. Dean was proud of his sawed-off shotgun and Sam was proud of his soccer trophy. If Dean had had an interest in soccer and won a trophy, I think John would've kept that too. I'm not sure how this illustrates Sam's life was rosy compared to Dean's.

I don't think anyone said Sam's life was rosy. Sam's life was more normal than Dean's and IMO that is because Dean tried his best to make be normal. 

IMO that's why Dean went back with Sam in Bad Boys. Dean clearly wanted to go that dance. He enjoyed and excelled at wrestling for a couple of months. That was the closest he had to normal since Mom burned on the ceiling as he watched from outside the house when he was 4.

IMO Dean had already known what it was to grow up "not normal". And IMO he wanted to go back to do what he could to help ensure Sam had more normality than he did. 

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, he kept things that were important to each of his sons. Dean was proud of his sawed-off shotgun and Sam was proud of his soccer trophy. If Dean had had an interest in soccer and won a trophy, I think John would've kept that too. I'm not sure how this illustrates Sam's life was rosy compared to Dean's.

"Seem" being the operative word there, IMO.

I didn't mean to say that Sam's childhood was rosy.  I just think he didn't have the responsibilities Dean did, and in that sense he had more opportunities to participate in normal things than Dean did.

I guess I just feel when Dean has to point out to Sam that Sam left him too, it doesn't suggest that Sam felt a strong sense of responsibility towards Dean, but again we can agree to disagree. 

[rue721]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

If Dean had had an interest in soccer and won a trophy, I think John would've kept that too.

I dunno, Dean did wrestle and John didn't seem to care at all about that (maybe didn't know about it)?

Not that I can picture John caring ~so much~ about Sam playing soccer, either. (Why would he?) The only reason I can buy Sam ever playing soccer at all is because he seems to have been a really driven kid, and I can see him trying to pad his college apps with as many impressive extracurriculars as possible ;)

Anyway, I think that Dean cared a lot about pleasing John whereas Sam was pretty rebellious, and that's why Dean's momento is from learning to hunt and Sam's is from him trying to be Mr. High-Achiever-Going-Away-to-College.

It's sweet to me that John secretly had a soft spot for Sam and his rebelliousness, but I can see how the kid who didn't rebel, Dean, would be a bit bitter about that in retrospect. Like, "you mean I could have gotten away with all THAT? UGH SO WHAT WAS EVEN THE POINT."

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But that's also because he doesn't think in terms of what he needs or what might be best for him.

I guess I just think what's best for Dean is best left up to Dean to decide.

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess I just feel when Dean has to point out to Sam that Sam left him too, it doesn't suggest that Sam felt a strong sense of responsibility towards Dean, but again we can agree to disagree. 

Just because Dean feels like Sam didn't have any responsibility to him doesn't mean that he didn't. TBH, I think you're only seeing things from Dean's perspective, and that fine, I just tend to try and see it from both sides, is all. Personally, I think it was just as hard for Sam to walk away as it was for Dean to stay. But each did what each felt like was the right thing for them to do in the end.

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I dunno, Dean did wrestle and John didn't seem to care at all about that (maybe didn't know about it)?

I'd say Dean didn't tell John about the wresting. I think Dean made his choice and didn't look back, myself. So, I don't think he'd tell John much about what he did there or that he had an opportunity to leave.

[rue721]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I'd say Dean didn't tell John about the wresting. I think Dean made his choice and didn't look back, myself. So, I don't think he'd tell John much about what he did there or that he had an opportunity to leave.

Dean apparently kept in touch with Sonny, so I think he did look back on those memories fondly at least.

But I agree that there would be no reason for him to bring up wrestling with John. Why would John be interested? And, probably more importantly, why would Dean be talking to his dad about the great times he was having when he was essentially on punishment? I mean, he was there as a punishment for screwing up, he isn't going to be like HEY DAD I HAD THE BEST TIME lol.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, as I said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree about this topic.  I am looking at it from both Sam and Dean's perspectives, and I think those perspectives are vastly different.  I've never said that Sam had it easy, but his difficulties were very different from Dean's.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Dean apparently kept in touch with Sonny, so I think he did look back on those memories fondly at least.

But I agree that there would be no reason for him to bring up wrestling with John. Why would John be interested? And, probably more importantly, why would Dean be talking to his dad about the great times he was having when he was essentially on punishment? I mean, he was there as a punishment for screwing up, he isn't going to be like HEY DAD I HAD THE BEST TIME lol.

I really wish Dean had told John and that John was pissed about it. That would have been a great lesson to John that not everything has to be a hardcore punishment.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really wish Dean had told John and that John was pissed about it. That would have been a great lesson to John that not everything has to be a hardcore punishment.

LOL see I can see *Sam* doing something like that. And Dean being frustrated/irritated by it, and telling him to get it together and stop instigating John all the time ;)

Edited March 15, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Dean apparently kept in touch with Sonny, so I think he did look back on those memories fondly at least.

Oh, I agree he looked back on them fondly, I just mean I didn't think he would've have brought it up with John because he figured there was no point. He'd made his choice, there was no point in getting John all riled up over it.

And, BTW, I'm in no way saying that Dean didn't want any part of that life Sonny was offering, I just think he wanted the other life more, is all.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

LOL see I can see *Sam* doing that. And Dean being really frustrated/irritated and telling him to get it together and stop instigating John all the time ;)

I don't understand what you mean. Sorry, I feel like I'm missing the joke :(

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I agree he looked back on them fondly, I just mean I didn't think he would've have brought it up with John because he figured there was no point. He'd made his choice, there was no point in getting John all riled up over it.

I do wonder though, if John would be riled up or more like thinking Sonny is  a weak father figure for giving Dean a chance to rehab rather than put him out on the chain gang. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I do wonder though, if John would be riled up or more like thinking Sonny is  a weak father figure for giving Dean a chance to rehab rather than put him out on the chain gang. 

Probably more towards the latter. Didn't the flashback in Death's Door show Bobby on the phone with John being chewed out for letting Dean play in the park instead of target practice?

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I guess I just think what's best for Dean is best left up to Dean to decide

And that works for a young man of say 20 or 21. But Dean was like 15 or 16. That's an age where he's starting to figure out what he wants but he's still influenced heavily by John's behavior and attitude, his attachment to his family and his sense of responsibility to Sam.  For me, his age is the mitigating factor in what influenced him to remain with the family versus.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I don't understand what you mean. Sorry, I feel like I'm missing the joke :(

 

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really wish Dean had told John and that John was pissed about it. That would have been a great lesson to John that not everything has to be a hardcore punishment.

I can just imagine Sam coming back from a punishment and being like DAD I HAD THE BEST TIME (either out of naivety or to be contrary), and Dean being like, "oh fuck, here we go," and a battle of wills between John and Sam continuing to escalate from there. LOL.

For some reason, the idea is hilarious to me -- I guess because that kind of conflict just seems so classic and never-ending. Sam must have been such an exhausting (but ironically, totally normal!) teenager LOL.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

 

I can just imagine Sam coming back from a punishment and being like DAD I HAD THE BEST TIME (either out of naivety or to be contrary), and Dean being like, "oh fuck, here we go," and a battle of wills between John and Sam continuing to escalate from there. LOL.

For some reason, the idea is hilarious to me -- I guess because that kind of conflict just seems so classic and never-ending. Sam must have been such an exhausting (but ironically, totally normal!) teenager LOL.

Ah, I did not get you meant that Sam was the one being punished. Thanks!

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Ah, I did not get you meant that Sam was the one being punished. Thanks!

Ah yeah sorry. My fault for not being clear. I mean I could see Sam doing that if he had been in Dean's position (on punishment). I can't see him like, "tattling" on Dean or something.