Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

There's definitely something there with SanSan in the books, but Brienne/Jaime is his version of Beauty and the Beast, and he has said as much.

 

Has he specifically called out Jaime/Brienne as being his version of beauty and the beast? I don't know, SanSan has all the BATB tropes and his description of Sandor as hideous and dangerous does make him seem as the beast to innocent, beautiful Sansa.

I just found an old thread discussing the Hound on his livejournal dating back to 2009 regarding the Hound's casting:

Quote

Fan 1: Oh please don't cast an old guy for the Hound, his scenes with Sansa are so romantic and erotic, I couldn't bear if it'd feel creepy all of a sudden. Well, that's me making demands. LOL

GRRM:  Old guy? No, but... the Hound is still a whole lot older than Sansa, and was never written as attractive... you know, those hideous burns and all that... he's a lot more dangerous than he is romantic.

Fan 2: Hehe, George, maybe you didn't intend it, but he turned out to be a very erotic character to female readers. Especially since he's mutilated and dangerous. Makes him unpredictable and vulnerable which is the most explosive aphrodisiac for a girl's fantasy  ;)

Fan 3: Yeah its a "girl always wants the bad boy" kind of thing although Sansa seems to pull something else out of him. It feels so wrong sometimes but I want to see them together again tee hee.

Fan 4: To many of us women, dangerous *is* attractive.

GRRM: But no one has any love for poor old Sam Tarly, kind and smart and decent and devoted...

 

https://grrm.livejournal.com/103284.html?page=2

coupled together with this youtube video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I

it does seem like he is surprised by the popularity of the Sandor and SanSan and seems like he is playing with this pairing only because the fans are into it.  Taken together with Cogman's comment about GRRM not being sure about what to do with the Hound, maybe SanSan is not all that important in the books as well.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

If we're invoking GRRM-written episodes, a good chunk of the Tyrion/Sansa moments I mentioned happened in GRRM-written episodes.

GRRM wrote 1x08, 2x09, 3x07 and 4x02. Of these episodes Sansa and Tyrion exchange one line in 2x09 (And then he immediately turns to Shae) as opposed to the Sansa-Hound scene in her bedroom. In 3x07 Tyrion's scenes were again with Shae. Their only major interaction was in 4x02 where they had to suffer through Joffrey's wedding together - which makes sense story wise. That's their last interaction and then both characters move onto their individual stories. Tyrion is kind towards Sansa - that's a major aspect of their relationship which is the same in the books. He protects her from abuse and is ready to take her away from Joffrey's abuse to Casterly Rock. Sansa recognizes that Tyrion is kind. But that's about it. There is nothing romantic there. She is repulsed physically by him and was forced into a marriage to him. And Tyrion understands that very well and is currently angry in the books that she escaped and left him to face the music for Joffrey's murder.

I don't know. None of Sansa's suitors are nice - Joffrey, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, Sweet Robin. Even Harry the Heir comes across as insufferable in the books. The girl has the shittiest luck. It's almost like a dark comedy considering she was all about finding love and getting married. And considering that Sansa is the fandom bicycle, I can understand the popularity of crack ships like Jonsa, Gensa, Dicksa and Podsa! Poor Sansa is running out of younger, good looking guys to marry. Unfortunately Dickon Tarly is dust, Pod and his magic dick may not be around for much longer, Gendry will probably be making eyes at Arya and Jon is busy with boatsex. Show Sansa seems to have had enough of men anyways and seems fine with her singledom.

All this beauty and the beast talk reminded me of a Jonsa post I came across on tumblr which talked about how Jon was ugly in the books and with all his new scars he was becoming more ugly and therefore was the beast to Sansa's beauty. And I thought this is only April. We have one more year to go! One more year of the craziest speculations out there!!

Edited April 23, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

The girl has the shittiest luck. It's almost like a dark comedy considering she was all about finding love and getting married.

For real. It’s like the literal interpretation of be careful what you wish for. Like the movie Leprechaun.

 

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

. Show Sansa seems to have had enough of men anyways and seems fine with her singledom.

I  don’t blame her. Her “love life” has been a nightmare and I wouldn’t be surprised if she swears off men forever and wants to be  widowed Aunt. She won’t be allowed to of course, being a young, beautiful noblewoman who could bear a child, but I seriously wouldn’t blame her at all if she never wants to be married again. I hope she tells everyone to go to hell if they try to force a marriage on her to be honest. Or she genuinely does find love if she survives and that’s what she wants.

Edited April 23, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

it does seem like he is surprised by the popularity of the Sandor and SanSan and seems like he is playing with this pairing only because the fans are into it.  Taken together with Cogman's comment about GRRM not being sure about what to do with the Hound, maybe SanSan is not all that important in the books as well.

 

We don't know. I tend to think his protestations of surprise and shock at SanSan's popularity are more of the wink-wink-nudge-nudge variety, but it's too early to tell. The show seems to suggest that SanSan won't be a thing, but it's too early to say definitively.

Quote

GRRM wrote 1x08, 2x09, 3x07 and 4x02. Of these episodes Sansa and Tyrion exchange one line in 2x09 (And then he immediately turns to Shae) as opposed to the Sansa-Hound scene in her bedroom. In 3x07 Tyrion's scenes were again with Shae. Their only major interaction was in 4x02 where they had to suffer through Joffrey's wedding together - which makes sense story wise.

Yes, and I listed the show-only moments in those episodes which deviated from the books in a way that played up Tyrion and Sansa's relationship. 

Quote

Tyrion is kind towards Sansa - that's a major aspect of their relationship which is the same in the books. He protects her from abuse and is ready to take her away from Joffrey's abuse to Casterly Rock. Sansa recognizes that Tyrion is kind. But that's about it. There is nothing romantic there. She is repulsed physically by him and was forced into a marriage to him. And Tyrion understands that very well and is currently angry in the books that she escaped and left him to face the music for Joffrey's murder.

The point is that the television version of Sansa and Tyrion's relationship is weirdly shippy (on both sides), in contrast to the TV version of Sandor and Sansa's relationship. TV SanSan not only fails to add any shippy moments, the shippy moments from the books were either significantly downplayed or completely (and, one assumes, deliberately) excised.

Quote

I don't know. None of Sansa's suitors are nice - Joffrey, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, Sweet Robin. Even Harry the Heir comes across as insufferable in the books. The girl has the shittiest luck. 

Is it "luck," or the predictable result of making the mistake of trusting obviously untrustworthy people over and over again? 

Quote

And considering that Sansa is the fandom bicycle, I can understand the popularity of crack ships like Jonsa, Gensa, Dicksa and Podsa! 

Pod/Sansa mystifies me. She has yet to acknowledge his existence despite spending two seasons with Brienne more or less glued to her side.

Quote

Show Sansa seems to have had enough of men anyways and seems fine with her singledom.

Agreed, and who can blame her?

Edited April 23, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

9 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

No. Not in the two instances I mentioned: when she didn't burn KL in 7x04 and when she went North with her dragons to save Jon and co in 7x06. She renounced to or risked/sacrified her advantage over Cersei in both occasions.

Her advantage was at 2000 and she dropped it down to 1500 by massacring the Lannister forces. It's still an overwhelming show of force; I wouldn't really call that a "sacrifice." Burning the Red Keep wouldn't necessarily be an advantage either because Tyrion knows there are jars of wildfire hidden all over the place. She'd win but what would she really win? Going North to save Jon wasn't a sacrifice because she didn't know she was going to lose a dragon. She also thought her dragons were invincible (she says so) - so she didn't even believe it was a risk. Her decisive moment to actually make a sacrifice - and she chose not to - was when Jon said he would fight with the army he has. Instead she ended up saving Jon, when she was supposed to save the NORTH - and that put Westeros at an even bigger risk because it brought down the Wall. It's her basic duty to help defend her kingdom if she wants to claim it - there shouldn't have to be pre-conditions for her to do that.

Her curbing her worst impulses is like a pit stop on the way to fire and blood. This is a pattern with her. Urge Drogo to take back the throne --> feels bad about the Dothraki raping the Lazahreen --> ignores Mirri's lesson and burns their priestess anyway. Wants an army to attack Westeros --> feels bad about using an army of slaves to do it --> uses them for her own self-interest in Westeros anyway. Destroys Astapor, Yunkai, Meereen on her march through Slaver's Bay --> feels bad about destroying their cities and tries to be queen --> fire and bloods her way to victory anyway. Invade Westeros --> attack armies instead of innocents and puts her war momentarily on hold --> I'm sure we can guess what's coming next in S8.

From what I can tell, all Dany wants to do is ride her dragon and show people how powerful she is. If she's able to be a hero, win the Iron Throne, get the guy, all without burning innocents or actually paying a personal price for all that power she enjoys so much, then she's a Mary Sue. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Is it "luck," or the predictable result of making the mistake of trusting obviously untrustworthy people over and over again? 

None of those people entered her life/became fixated on her because she chose them.  She was obviously excited about Joff, of course, but even then it was the parents who arranged it.

[screamin]

10 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

As for the last of interest of the showrunners for the Vale storyline, it simply means imo that no one there is going to count in the endgame.

The fact that the showrunners took Sansa out of the Vale instead of just killing her off in situ shows she will count for something in the endgame, IMO.

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I do believe that this true, because when asked about the same at Balticon, GRRM mentioned once again that he would revisit them, but that they were both too young to go there - I think he was more concerned about Arya's age than Gendry's.

Arya is now 11 and will probably be 12 when she meets up with Gendry again. I agree with GRRM - that's too young. I am not a fan of all these older men - The Hound, LF, Tyrion - falling for 11 year old Sansa in the books and I am not going to enjoy it if it happens with Arya. GRRM  wanted the 5 year gap mainly for Arya and I think he now has to work his way around that.

Not only that, it's become tiresome. We had season 5 where Jon uses the AOTD argument - no one believes him and he ends up dead. Season 6 and he uses the AOTD argument, no one believes him except for Lyanna Mormont. Season 7 he starts off talking about the AOTD and the Northerners whine and grumble. Like dammit! All Jon has been doing for 3 seasons now is constantly talk about the AOTD with a bunch of knuckleheads refusing to listen. It's boring and I hope the culmination of this was the dragonpit wight demonstration. Even Kit Harington is going to be frustrated if he has to say the same dialogue next season about the AOTD while the Northerners complain.

As someone above mentioned, the Northerners on the show are a bunch of petty fools but even they can't be this brain dead to refuse an offer of help to survive an existential threat. And surely they realize that they have to give something in return. They would rather die with their independence than bend the knee to live?

Anyways, I can't watch these people complain again - it's just become ridiculous at this point. I hope instead we start seeing some of the bad-ass Northerners in the books making an appearance. Some of the casting spoilers leads me to believe this will happen.

Also I would be cheering if Dany let Drogon have Royce and Glover for dinner. Political disaster? Sure. But they are two of the most annoying side characters in the North and useless to boot. Sansa is more of a military expert than Yohn Royce.  They can get rid of Royce and use Sansa as the head of the Vale army.

While going through the Balticon stuff, I found this GRRM quote:

So does this confirm that there is still an Iron Throne at the end of it all and someone will be sitting on it? Singular. Also someone will be getting married. I don't think he was talking about the Ramsay-fArya marriage there. Or the Dany - Hizdahr marriage. It sounds like an endgame marriage to me.

Nope. It doesn't confirm that there will be an Iron Throne at the end because knowing who is on the Iron Throne at the end could mean he knows no one ends up on the Iron Throne.

It's like when someone asked GRRM about Jon's death and GRRM said "oh you think he's dead, do you?"

Jon and Daenerys are definitely getting married in the books but could also mean Sansa's marriage to whoever or Arya's marriage to whoever 

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Has he specifically called out Jaime/Brienne as being his version of beauty and the beast? I don't know, SanSan has all the BATB tropes and his description of Sandor as hideous and dangerous does make him seem as the beast to innocent, beautiful Sansa.

I just found an old thread discussing the Hound on his livejournal dating back to 2009 regarding the Hound's casting:

https://grrm.livejournal.com/103284.html?page=2

coupled together with this youtube video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I

it does seem like he is surprised by the popularity of the Sandor and SanSan and seems like he is playing with this pairing only because the fans are into it.  Taken together with Cogman's comment about GRRM not being sure about what to do with the Hound, maybe SanSan is not all that important in the books as well.

GRRM wrote 1x08, 2x09, 3x07 and 4x02. Of these episodes Sansa and Tyrion exchange one line in 2x09 (And then he immediately turns to Shae) as opposed to the Sansa-Hound scene in her bedroom. In 3x07 Tyrion's scenes were again with Shae. Their only major interaction was in 4x02 where they had to suffer through Joffrey's wedding together - which makes sense story wise. That's their last interaction and then both characters move onto their individual stories. Tyrion is kind towards Sansa - that's a major aspect of their relationship which is the same in the books. He protects her from abuse and is ready to take her away from Joffrey's abuse to Casterly Rock. Sansa recognizes that Tyrion is kind. But that's about it. There is nothing romantic there. She is repulsed physically by him and was forced into a marriage to him. And Tyrion understands that very well and is currently angry in the books that she escaped and left him to face the music for Joffrey's murder.

I don't know. None of Sansa's suitors are nice - Joffrey, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, Sweet Robin. Even Harry the Heir comes across as insufferable in the books. The girl has the shittiest luck. It's almost like a dark comedy considering she was all about finding love and getting married. And considering that Sansa is the fandom bicycle, I can understand the popularity of crack ships like Jonsa, Gensa, Dicksa and Podsa! Poor Sansa is running out of younger, good looking guys to marry. Unfortunately Dickon Tarly is dust, Pod and his magic dick may not be around for much longer, Gendry will probably be making eyes at Arya and Jon is busy with boatsex. Show Sansa seems to have had enough of men anyways and seems fine with her singledom.

All this beauty and the beast talk reminded me of a Jonsa post I came across on tumblr which talked about how Jon was ugly in the books and with all his new scars he was becoming more ugly and therefore was the beast to Sansa's beauty. And I thought this is only April. We have one more year to go! One more year of the craziest speculations out there!!

Jon isn't ugly. He's meant to be attractive to some extent. He's no Loras/Jaime/Rhaegar but he's definitely meant to be appealing to women.

Jon's scars make him look like even more of a James Dean bad-boy that GRRM was going for when he wrote Jon.

GRRM: Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love.”

[Eyes High]

56 minutes ago, SeanC said:

None of those people entered her life/became fixated on her because she chose them.  She was obviously excited about Joff, of course, but even then it was the parents who arranged it.

Book Sansa wouldn't have ever had to worry about any of them had she listened to Ned and kept her mouth shut, and she would have been free of Joffrey and the Hound once Ned smuggled her out of the city. Even aside from that, she wouldn't have had to worry about Tyrion had she kept her mouth shut and not told Dontos about the Willas plan. She wouldn't have had to worry about Sweetrobin, Littlefinger or Harry the Heir if she hadn't trusted Dontos. And so on. It's not "luck" that Sansa has to contend with all these shitty men; it's the predictable result of her own terrible judgment.

8 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Jon and Daenerys are definitely getting married in the books but could also mean Sansa's marriage to whoever or Arya's marriage to whoever 

I doubt there will be multiple couples pairing off and getting married at the end. 

1 minute ago, WindyNights said:

Jon isn't ugly. He's meant to be attractive to some extent. He's no Loras/Jaime/Rhaegar but he's definitely meant to be appealing to women.

Agreed.

[Sunshinegal]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't know. None of Sansa's suitors are nice - Joffrey, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, Sweet Robin. Even Harry the Heir comes across as insufferable in the books. The girl has the shittiest luck. It's almost like a dark comedy considering she was all about finding love and getting married. And considering that Sansa is the fandom bicycle, I can understand the popularity of crack ships like Jonsa, Gensa, Dicksa and Podsa! Poor Sansa is running out of younger, good looking guys to marry. Unfortunately Dickon Tarly is dust, Pod and his magic dick may not be around for much longer, Gendry will probably be making eyes at Arya and Jon is busy with boatsex. Show Sansa seems to have had enough of men anyways and seems fine with her singledom.

All this beauty and the beast talk reminded me of a Jonsa post I came across on tumblr which talked about how Jon was ugly in the books and with all his new scars he was becoming more ugly and therefore was the beast to Sansa's beauty. And I thought this is only April. We have one more year to go! One more year of the craziest speculations out there!!

Agree.  I also understand the need to ship Sansa with the younger, good looking guys, but that doesn't seem to be Sansa's fate.  If she survives and is going to be with somebody it would be with an older, not handsome guy (Most likely Tyrion or the Hound).  And I agree 100% with all the reasons why the remaining young, good looking guys won't be with Sansa (even though I want Pod to live.)  In real life in the middle ages, many young, beautiful princesses married old, ugly guys.  Not everyone is going to get the young, handsome prince.  It seems to me that Sansa is not getting the young, handsome prince.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Pod/Sansa mystifies me. She has yet to acknowledge his existence despite spending two seasons with Brienne more or less glued to her side.

Agree.  How can there be a romantic relationship if they don't even talk to each other.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

The fact that the showrunners took Sansa out of the Vale instead of just killing her off in situ shows she will count for something in the endgame, IMO.

Sansa is from the North.

[whateverdgaf]

29 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Has he specifically called out Jaime/Brienne as being his version of beauty and the beast? I don't know, SanSan has all the BATB tropes and his description of Sandor as hideous and dangerous does make him seem as the beast to innocent, beautiful Sansa.

Yes. In an interview Gwendoline Christie revealed that she had a conversation with GRRM about Brienne's character and he told her that her and Jaime's relationship was that of a gender inverted Beauty and the Beast. Many shippers have speculated about BATB elements to Sansa/Sandor, but Brienne and Jaime is the only ship that it has been confirmed are intended as beauty and the beast.  http://tvline.com/2014/03/25/game-of-thrones-season-4-spoilers-gwendoline-christie-brienne-jamie/

Considering how; despite having several opportunities, Sandor and Sansa never really talk about one another on the show I agree it's unlikely their relationship will be taken anywhere next season. Maybe there will be something between Tyrion and Sansa, for which there has been more build up. But there are already quite a few romances to address next season, for example Jonerys and Jaime/Brienne, that maybe Sansa will not have a romantic plotline at all. 

[Cosmosgravitation]

28 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Jon isn't ugly. He's meant to be attractive to some extent. He's no Loras/Jaime/Rhaegar but he's definitely meant to be appealing to women.

Jon's scars make him look like even more of a James Dean bad-boy that GRRM was going for when he wrote Jon.

 

In addition to GRRM's quote, Jon being attractive is further demonstrated by how it seems nearly every non-related female Jon encounters hits on him or behave like they are attracted to him.  Off the top of my head, these include Ygritte, Val, Morna White-Mask, Zei, Shireen, Melisandre, and Alys Karstalk. 

Sure, Ghost and his background probably help, but those wouldn't count for much if he weren't at least somewhat attractive on his own.

[anamika]

6 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Yes. In an interview Gwendoline Christie revealed that she had a conversation with GRRM about Brienne's character and he told her that her and Jaime's relationship was that of a gender inverted Beauty and the Beast. Many shippers have speculated about BATB elements to Sansa/Sandor, but Brienne and Jaime is the only ship that it has been confirmed are intended as beauty and the beast.  http://tvline.com/2014/03/25/game-of-thrones-season-4-spoilers-gwendoline-christie-brienne-jamie/

Yeah, but Jaime/Brienne is a trope inversion of BATB with the lady being ugly on the outside but beautiful inside and the man being pretty on the outside while being ugly inside. The beautiful Jaime verbally abuses ugly Brienne.

Quote

Martin “said what he wanted to do was to take the traditional format of Beauty and the Beast and change the roles — and also the genders,” she says. “That really excited me.”

Meanwhile SanSan is virtually BATB - with the hideous, dangerous beastly Sandor being nasty to the innocent, beautiful Sansa and then gets reformed because of her innocence or beauty or whatever.

Sure GRRM has not told Sophie Turner that SanSan is about BATB - he seems disconcerted by the fact that people like SanSan - but there's a reason that SanSan fans are constantly bringing up the BATB comparisons - it's literally BATB set in Westeros.

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Jon and Daenerys are definitely getting married in the books but could also mean Sansa's marriage to whoever or Arya's marriage to whoever 

Who do you think Sansa and Arya are going to marry at the end of the books considering that this is a marriage that GRRM says he came up with in 1991 as per that quote.

Edited April 24, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

11 hours ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

In addition to GRRM's quote, Jon being attractive is further demonstrated by how it seems nearly every non-related female Jon encounters hits on him or behave like they are attracted to him.  Off the top of my head, these include Ygritte, Val, Morna White-Mask, Zei, Shireen, Melisandre, and Alys Karstalk. 

Sure, Ghost and his background probably help, but those wouldn't count for much if he weren't at least somewhat attractive on his own.

Shireen and Melisandre shouldn't be counted. Shireen is a shy little girl used to being ignored and Melisandre is willing to bang the very plain Davos, I don't think she cares about looks.

I don't want to count Alys either because it's so subtle that it's hard to tell. 

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Yeah, but Jaime/Brienne is a trope inversion of BATB with the lady being ugly on the outside but beautiful inside and the man being pretty on the outside while being ugly inside. The beautiful Jaime verbally abuses ugly Brienne.

Meanwhile SanSan is virtually BATB - with the hideous, dangerous beastly Sandor being nasty to the innocent, beautiful Sansa and then gets reformed because of her innocence or beauty or whatever.

Sure GRRM has not told Sophie Turner that SanSan is about BATB - he seems disconcerted by the fact that people like SanSan - but there's a reason that SanSan fans are constantly bringing up the BATB comparisons - it's literally BATB set in Westeros.

Who do you think Sansa and Arya are going to marry at the end of the books considering that this is a marriage that GRRM says he came up with in 1991 as per that quote.

A Baratheon-Stark union is what GRRM's foreshadowed from the beginning so I wager that.

I think there's  a good chance that there will be a Stark-Baratheon union in the endgame.

Arya x Gendry is the only one that's feasible or we never see who she marries if she ever gets married.

Sansa could conceivably end up anywhere from Harry the Heir to Sweetrobin to Edric Storm to Tyrion Lannister.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

A Baratheon-Stark union is what GRRM's foreshadowed from the beginning so I wager that.

I think there's  a good chance that there will be a Stark-Baratheon union in the endgame.

Arya x Gendry is the only one that's feasible or we never see who she marries if she ever gets married.

Sansa could conceivably end up anywhere from Harry the Heir to Sweetrobin to Edric Storm to Tyrion Lannister.

How did GRRM foreshadow a Stark-Baratheon union?  The story starts with a proposed Stark - Baratheon union that ends in death and destruction for house Stark.  If anything proposed Stark - Baratheon unions have always ended in disaster for house Stark - Lyanna/Robert and Sansa/Joffrey.  That seems to be the foreshadowing.  

When the series ends,  Arya will be 12. Not even a teenager.  I don't see an Arya marriage happening at the end of the books. 

Sansa and Edric Storm?  I doubt GRRM envisioned their marriage in 1991. Same with Harry the Heir.  

Sansa and Tyrion?  They are already married.  And GRRM seems to be talking about a marriage at the end of the series.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by anamika

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

When the series ends,  Arya will be 12. Not even a teenager.  I don't see an Arya marriage happening at the end of the books. 

That assumes that the books don’t have any time jumps toward the end.  I think there probably will be a more chronologically advanced epilogue, even if it’s just a final Bran chapter full of hints at what came after the main action.

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

How did GRRM foreshadow a Stark-Baratheon union?  The story starts with a proposed Stark - Baratheon union that ends in death and destruction for house Stark.  If anything proposed Stark - Baratheon unions have always ended in disaster for house Stark - Lyanna/Robert and Sansa/Joffrey.  That seems to be the foreshadowing.  

When the series ends,  Arya will be 12. Not even a teenager.  I don't see an Arya marriage happening at the end of the books. 

Sansa and Edric Storm?  I doubt GRRM envisioned their marriage in 1991. Same with Harry the Heir.  

Sansa and Tyrion?  They are already married.  And GRRM seems to be talking about a marriage at the end of the series.  

 

"I have a son. You have a daughter. Let's join houses."

Third time's the charm. And Sansa does marry a Baratheon and have his baby in the outline. 

GRRM doesn't need to have thought Harry from the beginning. You're thinking too specifically. It could very well have been an Arryn x Sansa marriage and Harry replaced SR or someone else.

Also GRRM did mention that he created that outline to advertise his story to a publisher and that he actually forgot about it for several years while he was writing his story.

 

We're likely getting a time jump though.

Edited April 24, 2018 by WindyNights

[OhOkayWhat]

About Arya's endgame, at least in the show, if I look at her narrative as a whole (and as a part of a bigger story), I don't see her getting married anytime soon, or becoming the Queen or the Lady of any castle or any kind of King/Queensguard.

[Eyes High]

I think GRRM said at one point that in TWOW there would be single POV chapters that would cover several months (although that hasn't been true of the TWOW POV chapters already released, to be sure). So we won't get a capital-t Timejump, but we may get a series of small time jumps that vault the storyline forward quite a bit before the end of the series. Frankly, if GRRM is going to wrap up the series in two books, I don't see how he can do it without significantly picking up the pace.

When it comes to which ships are "endgame," Arya's or otherwise, at the risk of stating the obvious, there are plenty of ways to imply that two characters will end up together without showing them getting married.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

When it comes to which ships are "endgame," Arya's or otherwise, at the risk of stating the obvious, there are plenty of ways to imply that two characters will end up together without showing them getting married.

My point is, at the end of the story, Arya and Sansa will be shown as people far from an emotional state where the audience will say: the guy who is holding her hand right now will surely be her husband.

In other words, the story will end with both of them in a very transitional phase of their lives, where will be clear they will be still making important choices in the years for come.

A very open ending for them both.

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

My point is, at the end of the story, Arya and Sansa will be shown as people far from an emotional state where the audience will say: the guy who is holding her hand right now will surely be her husband.

Audiences aren't stupid and can read obvious cues. If Arya had a scene where she, as an example, announces her intention of sailing west of Westeros and Gendry immediately insists on going with her (blah blah rowing joke blah blah), prompting Arya and Gendry to exchange a long look and slow smile, the audience would easily figure out which way the wind is blowing. Ditto for Sansa. Those scenes are not hard to write.

13 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

In other words, the story will end with both of them in a very transitional phase of their lives, where will be clear they will be still making important choices in the years for come.

Possibly--Arya and Sansa are two characters who are incredibly unlikely to marry for duty--but I doubt the series would end without some hint as to who's going to pair off to ensure the continuation of the Stark line (if indeed it is going to continue).

[OhOkayWhat]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If Arya had a scene where she, as an example, announces her intention of sailing west of Westeros and Gendry immediately insists on going with her (blah blah rowing joke blah blah), prompting Arya and Gendry to exchange a long look and slow smile, the audience would easily figure out which way the wind is blowing.

That's exactly my point: the showrunners will NOT include the Gendry part of your example, to maintain the idea of the transitional phase and the open ending, if the showrunners did, as you said, most of the audience would take that as a clue.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

but I doubt the series would end without some hint as to who's going to pair off to ensure the continuation of the Stark line (if indeed it is going to continue).

The reader doesn't need to meet the husband to know there will be a continuation of the Stark line. Remember in the novels we have POV, the thoughts of the characters. If Sansa's final thoughts in the novel are about her thinking on finding love and getting married even with all the tragedy she endured, but this time in her own terms, then the reader will know the Stark line surely will continue even if we don't know the future husband yet.

In the show, well, D&D simply don't care too much about that. And actually I don't mind that. If it's shown Arya and Sansa will be able to make mostly their own choices, it's enough for me.

Edited April 24, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

GRRM did an interview recently in Redwood City with John Picacio. When asked about GOT successor shows, he said the following:

”We’re not going to see the stories of Jon Snow, Arya Stark or Tyrion continue on.”

Is this accidental implicit confirmation that these three characters survive the show?

[kcbuckeye2]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM did an interview recently in Redwood City with John Picacio. When asked about GOT successor shows, he said the following:

”We’re not going to see the stories of Jon Snow, Arya Stark or Tyrion continue on.”

Is this accidental implicit confirmation that these three characters survive the show?

While it could be read that way, I think it's more of just GRRM naming three of the more popular characters in his quote. 

Although honestly, I don't expect any of those three to die.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, kcbuckeye2 said:

While it could be read that way, I think it's more of just GRRM naming three of the more popular characters in his quote. 

Although honestly, I don't expect any of those three to die.

Fair enough; I think it's been clear for quite some time that Arya and Tyrion are going to survive. The leak of his 1993 outline which stated that Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Bran and Dany would make it through all the books was further evidence. (Jon I've been less sure about, what with him having died in the show and all.)

This interview quote (assuming it's accurate) reminded me of another instance where GRRM mentioned these three characters together: the io9 interview where he said he always knew what Jon, Tyrion and Arya's arcs were going to be.

[anamika]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This interview quote (assuming it's accurate) reminded me of another instance where GRRM mentioned these three characters together: the io9 interview where he said he always knew what Jon, Tyrion and Arya's arcs were going to be.

I think they have always been his central characters going back to his original outline and are currently the characters with the most POV chapters. He always brings them up when talking about the character journeys and endings. He explained his problems with the 5 year gap with Arya and Jon.  I also get the feeling that Maisie, Kit and Peter filmed the most for season 8.

And yes, if GRRM stated that "We’re not going to see the stories of Jon Snow, Arya Stark or Tyrion continue on” exactly as mentioned, it does indicate to me that these characters survive.

It is interesting though that there was a rumor or a SSM long ago about GRRM wanting to write sequel adventures with an older Arya in Braavos - a lot of the 'Arya is going away West of Westeros' theories used that as a basis for Arya not staying in Westeros. But here GRRM says that there will be no more Arya stories set in the future?

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I think they have always been his central characters going back to his original outline and are currently the characters with the most POV chapters. He always brings them up when talking about the character journeys and endings. He explained his problems with the 5 year gap with Arya and Jon.  I also get the feeling that Maisie, Kit and Peter filmed the most for season 8.

Maisie and Kit were either rehearsing or filming pretty much continuously all the way through to the end of filming, as opposed to Emilia and Sophie, who took extended breaks: Sophie filmed for maybe a week or two between February and May, and Emilia took breaks for Solo in February and May/June. I'm less sure about Peter's overall filming time, but he was sighted in Belfast a lot in late May and June.

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And yes, if GRRM stated that "We’re not going to see the stories of Jon Snow, Arya Stark or Tyrion continue on” exactly as mentioned, it does indicate to me that these characters survive.

Me, too, although it's no great surprise that Arya and Tyrion survive.

Quote

It is interesting though that there was a rumor or a SSM long ago about GRRM wanting to write sequel adventures with an older Arya in Braavos - a lot of the 'Arya is going away West of Westeros' theories used that as a basis for Arya not staying in Westeros. But here GRRM says that there will be no more Arya stories set in the future?

I think GRRM meant television-wise, which was an odd thing to say given that he has never been in control of what happens with the show or its successors.

GRRM has openly talked about wanting to write stories set in Braavos, but the only source for the idea that GRRM was planning a post-ASOIAF series set in Braavos with an adult Arya playing a part in said series was Prince_Cade on Reddit, who claimed that that's what Ran (Elio at Westeros.org) had told him. (I don't think Ran has ever confirmed or denied this on Westeros.org where he mods.) 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[kikaha]

I think Tyrion is, in a way, GRRM's alter-ego in the series, both books and TV.  So it's hard for me to believe Martin kills him off. 

I also expect Jon gets the Iron Throne before Dany, because: 1) Jon has the birthright, which establishes his claim and ends Dany's (at least by her own logic), 2) Jon has never sought leadership roles, but keeps having them thrust upon him anyway, from Lord Commander at the wall to King in the North. 

If Jon doesn't survive, then ultimately the child Dany has by him will take the throne. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

I think Tyrion is, in a way, GRRM's alter-ego in the series, both books and TV.  So it's hard for me to believe Martin kills him off. 

I agree, although I think there's a lot of GRRM in Sam as well. (I think GRRM once said something to the effect of Tyrion being how GRRM wishes he could be, and Sam being closer to how he actually is.) I'd say Tyrion's closest forerunner in GRRM's works in terms of description and personality is Froggy in The Armageddon Rag, and Froggy winds up reasonably happy in the end. And of course the Turtle from the Wild Cards series, another GRRM self-insert type of character, is still alive and kicking. I think GRRM killing Tyrion or Sam off would be a kind of authorial suicide, so I doubt they'll die.

Quote

I also expect Jon gets the Iron Throne before Dany, because: 1) Jon has the birthright, which establishes his claim and ends Dany's (at least by her own logic), 2) Jon has never sought leadership roles, but keeps having them thrust upon him anyway, from Lord Commander at the wall to King in the North. 

I don't get the impression that D&D are invested in setting up Dany as a plausible endgame ruler, but I could be wrong.

[FemmyV]

Among my endgame fantasies:

The dragons all die, and Dany finds she can lead and help people without them.

Lyanna Mormont lives and chills out, just a little, while continuing to kick ass, in general.