GraceK April 16, 2018 Share April 16, 2018 Here’s something that I find interesting to speculate about regarding the endgame. As a Dany fan, I’m interested To see What it would it look like as Dany suffers more losses? From what we have gathered from all the season 8 speculation, it seems likes she gets hit with heavy losses with her armies next season due to the battles with the AOTD right? She also seems to have shorter hair, whether that’s real or she will have hair extensions I don’t know, but if she does sport a shorter more bad ass look due to her defeats like a Dothraki would, that’s pretty interesting. What’s her reaction gonna be to finding out her lover is actually her nephew and the legitimate heir to the iron throne? I have these questions because she has really been riding high for seven seasons now. Her first real loss has been Viserion, but she still has 2 dragons, her armies, and her sexy Northern king at her side. We haven’t seen her at a low point since season 1 when she lost her baby and Khal Drogo and her response to that was to birth three dragons ?. She has built her whole identity around being The true Queen and mother of Dragons and I’m wondering what will happen when she is confronted with undead Viserion? When her Dothraki and her Unsullied start dying? If Greyworm is killed? Things are gonna get real dark next season . Bittersweet could really just be our favorite people ending up alive but losing everything:( 6 Link to comment
GraceK April 16, 2018 Share April 16, 2018 I would squee with joy if a short haired, warrior goddess Dany rides Drogon into Battle against the NK in vengeance for Viserion! 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 16, 2018 Author Share April 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: The quotes weren't about R+L=J - it's just too popular. He's been hounded by people asking him about Jon's parents and coming up with their own shipping ideas for years. What he's saying is that only ONE or TWO people figured "something" out, out of the thousands of people he's met at cons, signings, and interviews over the years. In the quote that you posted, GRRM is taking comfort in the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of readers who stay off the fan boards for whom the books will contain surprises. That seems like a tacit admission that the fan board crowd has gotten enough right that they won't be surprised. Given that the book-only threads at Westeros.org have had a running series of R+L=J threads for the past several years, that seems like a fair assessment. Quote On his blog, GRRM responded to a fan who insisted that Sandor/Sansa was romantic: No one would like to take those denials at face value more than I (I'm not a SanSan fan), but come on. He has admitted that "there's something there" with Sandor and Sansa. One of GRRM's favourite movies is Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast. He had his own TV show, also called Beauty and the Beast, where the titular beast involved in the central romance was played by the same actor GRRM envisioned as the Hound. He has a very romantic depiction of Sandor and Sansa at Blackwater hanging in his house. GRRM is right that Sandor isn't an openly romantic figure, but he knows exactly what he's doing. Thus GRRM's protestations of surprise at female fans rooting for "villains" like Jaime and Sandor and rooting for SanSan. He's surprised that fans have caught on to what he was trying to do, when he (wrongly) thought he was being subtle and sneaky about it...which is again more evidence that GRRM isn't as subtle a writer as he seems to think he is. 7 minutes ago, GraceK said: Here’s something that I find interesting to speculate about regarding the endgame. As a Dany fan, I’m interested To see What it would it look like as Dany suffers more losses? From what we have gathered from all the season 8 speculation, it seems likes she gets hit with heavy losses with her armies next season due to the battles with the AOTD right? She also seems to have shorter hair, whether that’s real or she will have hair extensions I don’t know, but if she does sport a shorter more bad ass look due to her defeats like a Dothraki would, that’s pretty interesting. Short-haired Dany would be awesome, but even if Dany cut her braids--which would be awesome--Emilia would still have to wear a wig, since Dany's hair is much thicker than Emilia's. Quote She has built her whole identity around being The true Queen and mother of Dragons and I’m wondering what will happen when she is confronted with undead Viserion? When her Dothraki and her Unsullied start dying? If Greyworm is killed? Things are gonna get real dark next season . Bittersweet could really just be our favorite people ending up alive but losing everything:( I think the revelation of Jon's parentage and claim will be nothing for Dany compared to the knowledge that she has led tens of thousands of people who relied on her, trusted her and even worshipped her to their deaths. Brutal. 3 Link to comment
GraceK April 16, 2018 Share April 16, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Eyes High said: I think the revelation of Jon's parentage and claim will be nothing for Dany compared to the knowledge that she has led tens of thousands of people who relied on her, trusted her and even worshipped her to their deaths. Brutal. Good point. Oy. Also the possibility of confronting their undead corpses ?I seriously cannot wait for season 8. Lol Edited April 16, 2018 by GraceK 2 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 16, 2018 Share April 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Eyes High said: Pretty much, although again it makes you wonder when something that seems a big part of one character's arc has been more or less scrubbed from the show. I look at it this way: if, narratively speaking, Jonerys was inevitable because the Show Main Plot "needed" they falling in love to continue, then D&D "needed" to include it in the last season in a rushed (or not) way. But, as far I see, there is not a reason anymore to make it inevitable to rush to include a Sansan plot in the last season because long ago D&D made narrative choices to developt Sansa and Sandor separately without the need of a Sansan relationship. Link to comment
screamin April 17, 2018 Share April 17, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, GraceK said: Just on a different topic, show wise, what is the actual deal with the Vale now that Littlefinger is dead? Who are the Knights of the Vale really loyal too? They rode out for Sansa because Robin Arryn TOLD them too, whose to say they would have if he didn’t? I know they are loyal to the North and House Stark, I don’t doubt that, and I know they wanted to get involved in the war of the five kings, but their honor bound them to the Vale and they didn’t. If he decided , like Lysa did in season 1 not to get involved, they would have stayed in the vale right? So now what? Robin is lord of the Vale and Sansa is in Winterfell with his knights and Royce, who’s in the Eyrie with Robin and what’s gonna happen? I think that, having cut GRRM's entire Vale subplot by putting Sansa in the Jeyne Poole role, the showrunners have no interest in returning to see what's happened now that incompetent Sweetrobin has either been left to rule on his own or with some LF-chosen guardian not important enough to name, even though anyone who rules the Vale has a huge amount of power. I'll guess the show's Lord Royce is going to stay North till the end, with apparent fealty to Sansa and therefore making occasional cameos as one of Jon and Dany's nay-sayers. Edited April 17, 2018 by screamin Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 17, 2018 Share April 17, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Eyes High said: No one would like to take those denials at face value more than I (I'm not a SanSan fan), but come on. He has admitted that "there's something there" with Sandor and Sansa. One of GRRM's favourite movies is Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast. He had his own TV show, also called Beauty and the Beast, where the titular beast involved in the central romance was played by the same actor GRRM envisioned as the Hound Yeah, GRRM is definitely hitting some cliche BATB tropes with SanSan. I don't ship SanSan either (tbh it creeps me out, especially when show!Hound looks old enough to be Sansa's father), so I am hoping the show stays away from it in s8. GRRM is just...terrible at romance. Of his Big 5 characters, the 3 that have had romance arcs have been a hot mess. Dany and Jon both had pretty horrible first loves and the books and the show painted them as romantic love stories (although Dany did acknowledge being raped in s7, so baby steps I guess). Dany was repeatedly raped by Drogo and IMO developed a kind of Stockholm Syndrome love for him. Meanwhile Ygritte (in the books) coerces underage Jon into a sexual relationship and was often quite verbally abusive (I think 80% of her dialogue was insulting Jon and calling him an idiot). The fact that Dany and Jon had consensual sex, respect each other's opinion, are willing to take advice from each other and appear to have compatible personalities basically shoots them to the top of the show!GOT leaderboard with Robb/Talisa and Missandei/Greyworm as the few non-terrible couples. 17 hours ago, Eyes High said: Short-haired Dany would be awesome, but even if Dany cut her braids--which would be awesome--Emilia would still have to wear a wig, since Dany's hair is much thicker than Emilia's. Short-hair or long-hair, I just want to see Dany with a more relaxed hair style at least once next season. The amount of braids they give her now is ridiculous, she has at least 3 times the amount of hair the average person has. When Dany and Jon finally got it on I couldn't help but think she must have been so uncomfortable lying on all those braids. R.e. Jonsa, if that was going to be a thing Jon would have spent s7 falling in love with Sansa and working together as co-rulers, instead Jon and Sansa proved to be totally incompatible rulers and Jon was quickly dispatched to go and make heart eyes at Dany. Besides, Jon is clearly the Big Male Hero of GOT, and the fantasy genre being generally pretty sexist dictates that if he lives his "reward" will be the #1 female i.e. Dany. Dany is stated to be the most beautiful woman in GOT, she has dragons, she has armies and she has a royal bloodline. In the world of GOT Sansa simply doesn't have enough cache to end up with Jon, because there is no way the Big Male Hero ends up with a second tier female who is "beneath" his status. Edited April 17, 2018 by bubble sparkly 7 Link to comment
Eyes High April 17, 2018 Author Share April 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said: Yeah, GRRM is definitely hitting some cliche BATB tropes with SanSan. I don't ship SanSan either (tbh it creeps me out, especially when show!Hound looks old enough to be Sansa's father), so I am hoping the show stays away from it in s8. Some speculate that if D&D seriously intended Sansa to end up with the Hound, they would have cast someone substantially younger (and hotter) than Rory McCann. I'm skeptical, though; I doubt D&D knew whether or not SanSan was endgame when they were casting the show back in 2009 or whenever it was. Quote GRRM is just...terrible at romance. Of his Big 5 characters, the 3 that have had romance arcs have been a hot mess. Dany and Jon both had pretty horrible first loves and the books and the show painted them as romantic love stories (although Dany did acknowledge being raped in s7, so baby steps I guess). Dany was repeatedly raped by Drogo and IMO developed a kind of Stockholm Syndrome love for him. Meanwhile Ygritte (in the books) coerces underage Jon into a sexual relationship and was often quite verbally abusive (I think 80% of her dialogue was insulting Jon and calling him an idiot). Yes, pretty much, and D&D actually lampshaded how dumb Book Tysha's (genuine) romance with Tyrion was by having TV Shae correctly point out that no woman is going to go from almost being raped to happily jumping into bed with another guy two hours afterwards. (D&D lost points by having Gilly do pretty much the same thing in the Watchers on the Wall episode after Sam saves her, but they were right about Tyrion/Tysha, and at least Sam and Gilly had a relationship before that happened.) Quote The fact that Dany and Jon had consensual sex, respect each other's opinion, are willing to take advice from each other and appear to have compatible personalities basically shoots them to the top of the show!GOT leaderboard with Robb/Talisa and Missandei/Greyworm as the few non-terrible couples. For all the problematic stuff in the show, D&D seem to be much better at writing respectful, consensual, and non-abusive romance than GRRM. Grey Worm/Missandei is a good example. Quote R.e. Jonsa, if that was going to be a thing Jon would have spent s7 falling in love with Sansa and working together as co-rulers, instead Jon and Sansa proved to be totally incompatible rulers and Jon was quickly dispatched to go and make heart eyes at Dany. One thing I liked about the show's treatment of Jon and Sansa is that it showed that despite the best of intentions they still didn't get along very well and bickered constantly, which is about what one would expect given their relationship growing up and incompatible personalities. Quote Besides, Jon is clearly the Big Male Hero of GOT, and the fantasy genre being generally pretty sexist dictates that if he lives his "reward" will be the #1 female i.e. Dany. Dany is stated to be the most beautiful woman in GOT, she has dragons, she has armies and she has a royal bloodline. Agreed. Edited April 17, 2018 by Eyes High 6 Link to comment
WindyNights April 18, 2018 Share April 18, 2018 12 hours ago, Eyes High said: Some speculate that if D&D seriously intended Sansa to end up with the Hound, they would have cast someone substantially younger (and hotter) than Rory McCann. I'm skeptical, though; I doubt D&D knew whether or not SanSan was endgame when they were casting the show back in 2009 or whenever it was. Yes, pretty much, and D&D actually lampshaded how dumb Book Tysha's (genuine) romance with Tyrion was by having TV Shae correctly point out that no woman is going to go from almost being raped to happily jumping into bed with another guy two hours afterwards. (D&D lost points by having Gilly do pretty much the same thing in the Watchers on the Wall episode after Sam saves her, but they were right about Tyrion/Tysha, and at least Sam and Gilly had a relationship before that happened.) For all the problematic stuff in the show, D&D seem to be much better at writing respectful, consensual, and non-abusive romance than GRRM. Grey Worm/Missandei is a good example. One thing I liked about the show's treatment of Jon and Sansa is that it showed that despite the best of intentions they still didn't get along very well and bickered constantly, which is about what one would expect given their relationship growing up and incompatible personalities. Agreed. TBF, most of GRRM's romances are supposed to be disturbing. Daenerys x Jon is literally genetic siblings falling in love and fucking each other. Jaime and Cersei are twins in love and fucking each other. Tyrion's sexually attracted to Cersei and to a 12 year old Sansa. GRRM once helped write a story where an old man switches body with a girl and is then raped by his grandson. Link to comment
SeanC April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 On 4/16/2018 at 10:09 AM, Happy Harpy said: I thought of another issue. Sandor is a fighter and Beyond the Wall showed he's still a mighty one. The Stargaryen forces can't waste him with protection duty, so he's going to spend a lot of his time fighting at the front. He'll have more time to bond and interact with characters who are on the battlefield with him; whereas Sansa will have more time to bond and interact with the non-fighters like her (maybe not even Tyrion or Sam if the extra's info are legit and they're manning doors) -I imagine, during "breather" scenes inside WF if the battle lasts an episode or more. Since they scratched the romantic dimension between them, I don't think there will be time to develop a full-blown romance. Hinting they might get together in the end? As I said before, I don't think it can be ruled out completely. I agree nevertheless that the show's treatment or lack thereof of their romance so far doesn't bode well for an endgame. That would only be an issue if you assume that the show must necessarily put Sandor wherever he would most logically go. I think that's wholly unwarranted. The showrunners will put Sandor wherever they need him to be for whatever story they want to happen for him, with minimal or no justification if need be (and in truth, I don't think it would be that big a stretch to have him as part of the the castle garrison, say, because it's a strategically vital place). On 4/17/2018 at 10:22 AM, Eyes High said: Some speculate that if D&D seriously intended Sansa to end up with the Hound, they would have cast someone substantially younger (and hotter) than Rory McCann. I'm skeptical, though; I doubt D&D knew whether or not SanSan was endgame when they were casting the show back in 2009 or whenever it was. On that point, I'll dissent. D&D aren't the closest of close readers, God knows, but the romantic overtones in how SanSan is portrayed in the books are hard to miss (if nothing else, the writers clearly had to notice given how surgically they seem to have removed most of them from the TV adaptation). Given that they knew they were casting an actual 13-year-old girl in the role of Sansa, I can't imagine they wouldn't have asked GRRM about the Hound's potential love interest status. Now, whether this would have necessarily meant they wouldn't have cast Rory, I don't know. It's possible they just thought he was so good in the part that they'd not want anybody else. When it comes to the possibility of romantic SanSan in the show, I've at times thought that the biggest possible sign of the lack of it is not so much McCann's casting as how the writers have depicted him. The writing of Book!Hound definitely leans hard into at least two-thirds of Tall, Dark and Handsome (and a lot of fans imagine the third part anyway), but the show often seems to go out of its way to make the Hound look and act crude and a bit gross. Ultimately, when it comes to SanSan in the show I always find myself in a bit of a circular process. I find the arguments mustered by fans of the pairing that it is being cleverly hinted at by the show to be almost uniformly unconvincing (and strangely, the people who tend to make this argument also generally bash the show for being badly-written, despite that their arguments hinge on incredibly subtle hints being woven into otherwise unrelated scenes over several seasons), but at the same time, I have no illusions that the writers mightn't just pull something out of their ass at the last minute, so I cannot be definitive. 3 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, SeanC said: ...at the last minute, so I cannot be definitive. Agree, there's a possibility it happens in season 8. But again, when they rush things within the show (bad writing) even relationships, it's clear they do because the future plot needs it (example: Jon/Dany). There is not reason to include Sansan at this point of the story. Lots of work to fit it within only 6 epidodes to do what? They don't need Sansan anymore. Edited April 21, 2018 by OhOkayWhat Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) Since I don't believe the author was ever sincere about making this a real ship for Sansa, the show's choices in this regard makes perfect sense to me. Since I think Sandor is a gross dick hole in the books, the show's choice in casting and writing Sandor makes perfect sense to me. Edited April 21, 2018 by Colorful Mess Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) On 4/17/2018 at 6:22 AM, Eyes High said: One thing I liked about the show's treatment of Jon and Sansa is that it showed that despite the best of intentions they still didn't get along very well and bickered constantly, which is about what one would expect given their relationship growing up and incompatible personalities. Arguing is a sign of "the real" Jon Snow. He tells people things they don't want to hear. He does what he thinks is right. He argues with everyone in the books and the show: his NW brothers, Ygritte, Val, Tyrion, Benjen, Mance, Stannis, Sam, Mel, Davos, Missandei, Edd, Robb, Arya. He's being his real self with Sansa. I don't think he is being his real self around Dany. This is one of those things where I feel like fans can look up at the stars and see such different things - because I think Jon and Dany have incompatible personalities. I don't think he was making heart eyes at her. "There's no time for that." Instead, I think he was coaxing her to see his point of view, which results in not a whit of criticism from normally argumentative Jon. Post throne room, every word out of his mouth served to boost her ego or tell her how great she is. We see him go from argue --> charm in zero to 90 seconds. Even the times he looks frustrated ("I am a king!") he sugarcoats it with "With respect..." and embellishes his heroism and honesty, which is uncharacteristic of him. Argumentative Jon is normal Jon. Blunt Jon is normal Jon. He's different on Dragonstone after the throne room. I noticed how, when he wants her to do something, he has to flatter her first. If he can't argue/push back against the shitty things she's doing (especially once the Tarleys is revealed), then that is Jon acting OOC, because arguing is a sign that he's being himself. Why else is he described as having a "Stark face that gives nothing away." Is he afraid to be his blunt self and tell her what he really thinks? This line makes me wonder: "You’re the queen. Everyone’s too afraid of you to speak truth. Everyone but me." - Daario to Dany, S05E01. Edited April 21, 2018 by Colorful Mess 1 Link to comment
WindyNights April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said: Since I don't believe the author was ever sincere about making this a real ship for Sansa, the show's choices in this regard makes perfect sense to me. Since I think Sandor is a gross dick hole in the books, the show's choice in casting and writing Sandor makes perfect sense to me. He wasn't. He was just exploring. But exploration doesn't mean it has to be consummated. Besides as I've said before, the writers made it known that they don't know what GRRM is going to do with the Hound meaning that GRRM hasn't definitely decided the Hound's fate and that it won't affect a main character's if GRRM still thinks their endgame hasn't changed. 1 Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 On 4/17/2018 at 11:22 PM, Eyes High said: One thing I liked about the show's treatment of Jon and Sansa is that it showed that despite the best of intentions they still didn't get along very well and bickered constantly, which is about what one would expect given their relationship growing up and incompatible personalities. I agree, Jon and Sansa's relationship is very realistic. Sure they are family and love each other, but most of the time they annoy the shit out of each other. They are the kind of siblings who have nothing in common and if they weren't related they would never be friends (like Sansa/Arya), whereas if Jon wasn't related to Robb and Arya and met them randomly he would still want to pal around with them. I find it baffling when people who ship Jon and Sansa try to compare them to Ned and Cat, and say that Jonsa will marry for political reasons but grow to love each other etc. From what I can tell Ned and Cat seemed pretty compatible and had a solid partnership, and apart from the Jon situation didn't appear to do a whole lot of bickering. Honestly, if Jon and Sansa ended up married they would be much more like Robert and Cersei imo. Jon still pining for the love of his life who died, and Sansa wanting more authority and power than just being Jon's wife but Jon not listening to her and keeping her in the backseat. Given the constant bickering and disagreeing about everything that we saw in s7, their marriage would surely be incredibly unhappy. I'd give it a few years of frigid bitterness before they are both taking lovers on the side (or Jon might stay celibate since he seems to favour only sleeping with women he's in love with) and Sansa is passing off some hot fool's kid as the Stark heir lol. 7 Link to comment
GraceK April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said: find it baffling when people who ship Jon and Sansa try to compare them to Ned and Cat, and say that Jonsa will marry for political reasons but grow to love I agree. This comparison never made any sense. There are no political reasons for Jon and Sansa. Jon may be a legitimate Targaryen, but he is also a Stark by blood as well and Sansas trueborn cousin. So what possible alliance does their marriage bring? It’s incest and doesn’t unite anything. ( yea yea Jon and Dany are too but that’s a whole different conversation ?)Their houses are already literally united by blood. Brandon and Catelyn marriages were arranged by their families to join the Stark and Tully houses, it was a great match politically , which was why when Brandon died they didn’t want to lose the alliance and Cat married Ned instead. Jon and Sansa gain nothing by marrying. Anyone in the North with any sense would want their own sons to marry Sansa and have a claim on Winterfell and Fathers would be throwing their daughters at Jon if he’s endgame King and Dany dies. Let’s get real . Jonsa benefits no body politics wise and no one at this point can force them to marry or would have any reason too. Edited April 21, 2018 by GraceK 7 Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, GraceK said: Fathers would be throwing their daughters at Jon It's kind of unrealistic that none of the prominent Northerners tried to forcefully encourage Jon to legitimise himself and marry one of their age-appropriate daughters in s7 (with wedding and bedding happening quickly before he left for Dragonstone). I would actually be intrigued at Jon's reaction if highborn Northern women started flirting with him in s8, especially considering these woman would have almost certainly given him a wide berth if they encountered him when he was growing up. Would he feel a little resentful that women who likely thought he was a bastard unworthy of their time 7 years ago would now consider him prime marriage material? 1 Link to comment
SeanC April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said: It's kind of unrealistic that none of the prominent Northerners tried to forcefully encourage Jon to legitimise himself and marry one of their age-appropriate daughters in s7 (with wedding and bedding happening quickly before he left for Dragonstone). I don’t think legitimizing himself would enter into it. He’s already the king, and legitimization pertains solely to inheritance rights. He’s already inherited, so to speak. 4 Link to comment
GraceK April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) The only reason IMO this idea is Jonsa is even a thing is because of the show. Sophie Turner and Kit Harington are both beautiful people and they had a very touching and lovely reunion in season 6. Hearts started fluttering at the hug and loving looks they shared and apparently a ship was born. Why it went any further is beyond me though because Sansa was a total bitch to him afterwards. She pushes him to take Winterfell back and when he finally agrees acts likes her name alone will rally the North. Davos tries to explain to her how it really might not be that easy and she slaps him down, says he knows nothing about how honorable the North is and how when Ned’s Stark daughter comes, they will heed her call! She fails miserably and it’s Davos who gets the Mormonts by talking up Jon, and Jon who gets the wildings. Then, she continues to belittle Jon’s forces and Davos and complain that they need more men and that Jon won’t listen to her, even though she has the Knights Of The Vale in her pocket and won’t tell him. Jon flat out asks her advice and she still complains he won’t ask her advice. Seriously??? Then she sends a note to Littlefinger for men, doesn’t tell Jon than a huge army is on the way then when Jon almost dies and most of his men are slaughtered, she rides up to save the day. She even apologized to him and being Jon he’s totally cool with it . Then she resents that she’s not Queen in the North and yells at him at every opportunity In s7. But yes, those two are deeply and madly in love and should be together. Edited April 21, 2018 by GraceK 8 Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 33 minutes ago, SeanC said: I don’t think legitimizing himself would enter into it. He’s already the king, and legitimization pertains solely to inheritance rights. He’s already inherited, so to speak. Well, I was more thinking about legitimisation in respect of the Stark name, as I would assume any Northerners throwing their daughters at Jon would want their daughter and future grandchildren to be Starks not Snows. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High April 21, 2018 Author Share April 21, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, SeanC said: On that point, I'll dissent. D&D aren't the closest of close readers, God knows, but the romantic overtones in how SanSan is portrayed in the books are hard to miss (if nothing else, the writers clearly had to notice given how surgically they seem to have removed most of them from the TV adaptation). True. Even in many of what you would expect to be the big "SanSan" scenes in S2--Joffrey beating Sansa, the riot, etc.--equal or greater weight is given to Tyrion and Sansa, not SanSan. In the deleted 2x03 scene where it seems as if the writers were going for a version of the serpentine steps scene in the books, Tyrion even "rescues" Sansa when Sandor is bothering her! 7 hours ago, WindyNights said: Besides as I've said before, the writers made it known that they don't know what GRRM is going to do with the Hound Cogman just said that they didn't know where GRRM was going with the Quiet Isle storyline. It may be that GRRM told them Sandor's endgame without explaining how or why he leaves the Quiet Isle. If Cogman really meant to imply that GRRM hasn't told them anything about Sandor's fate post-AFFC, would he really drop such a bombshell as a casual aside? Apart from the three WTF moments, the writers are very stingy with book spoilers. Edited April 21, 2018 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
anamika April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said: Even the times he looks frustrated ("I am a king!") he sugarcoats it with "With respect..." and embellishes his heroism and honesty, which is uncharacteristic of him. That's just Jon knowing how to be diplomatic when talking to a queen and not yell at her like an immature brat. Sansa could learn a thing or two from Jon about politics and diplomacy - maybe then she would understand how her behavior in front of the Lords was undermining her brother, the king. 37 minutes ago, GraceK said: But yes, those two are deeply and madly in love and should be together. It's a very young idea of what love is, IMO. Jon and Dany have respectful, pleasant conversations with each other and there is no yelling at each other or tension there. Therefore it's not real love and Jon is just deceiving Dany. Jon and Sansa argue everytime - look at the tension between them!! It's true love!! 7 minutes ago, Eyes High said: If Cogman really meant to imply that GRRM hasn't told them anything about Sandor's fate post-AFFC, would he really drop such a bombshell as a casual aside? Apart from the three WTF moments, the writers are very stingy with book spoilers. Well, the writers, producers and directors have not been shy about dropping in some spoilers here and there. Like Stannis burning shireen being in the books and GRRM having told one of the directors that Jon and Dany were the point of the series. And they have been open about the fact that they brought the Hound back because they like the actor and the character is popular with the audience. Apparently GRRM hinted that Sansa imagining kisses with the Hound is going to eventually mean something. Not sure in what way - as just an exploration of Sansa as an unreliable narrator or with the Hound coming back into her story. Either way the Hound continues to be a part of Sansa's story in the Vale - so he could make an appearance there. On the show? Well they are meeting next season. It looks like Arya and Gendry are sharing lots of scenes next season despite neither character talking about the other in the previous few seasons. Same could hold true with Sansa and the Hound. 1 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, anamika said: On the show? Well they are meeting next season. It looks like Arya and Gendry are sharing lots of scenes next season despite neither character talking about the other in the previous few seasons. Same could hold true with Sansa and the Hound. We don't know if they are meeting next season. Also lots of actors have the same filming schedule, we don't even know if there will be more than 1 episode with Gendry/Arya scenes. What we know is the previous seasons storylines and they don't show anything about Sansan or Arya/Gendry. But lets say there will be Sansan or Arya/Gendry. One of the big differences (in a narrative sense) between one and the other is this: Sansa shared scenes with Sandor among many other interactions, and because that, to the casual viewer (the big mayority) they were not so important. In the other hand, Arya and Gendry traveled together for a long time, that, in a narrative sense, is much more powerful than other kind of storylines. Anyway, I really doubt that will be the reason Gendry is back in the show. And lets remember last year people was expecting lots of conversations between Jon and Gendry or Jon and Sandor about Arya. And? Nothing came from that. What we got? Sandor asking Brienne about Arya. The showrunners have their own priorities and they are following them. Edited April 21, 2018 by OhOkayWhat 1 Link to comment
SeanC April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 31 minutes ago, anamika said: On the show? Well they are meeting next season. It looks like Arya and Gendry are sharing lots of scenes next season despite neither character talking about the other in the previous few seasons. Same could hold true with Sansa and the Hound. The most obvious difference there, in my view, would be that Arya and Gendry's pre-separation interactions were obviously intended to have (and were perceived by the audience to have) a component of potential romance (whether or not that potential is ultimately fulfilled). The "milady" scene in Season 3, especially. There's foundation there that the audience remembers. There's nothing of the sort with Sansa and the Hound. They had basically two meaningful dialogue scenes, and the writers pretty carefully tried to keep any intimation that he had romantic interest in her out of it (meanwhile, I really have no idea what Sansa is supposed to think of the Hound in the show, because her POV toward him was excised almost entirely). 5 Link to comment
John Potts April 21, 2018 Share April 21, 2018 3 hours ago, SeanC said: The most obvious difference there, in my view, would be that Arya and Gendry's pre-separation interactions were obviously intended to have (and were perceived by the audience to have) a component of potential romance (whether or not that potential is ultimately fulfilled). The "milady" scene in Season 3, especially. There's foundation there that the audience remembers. You could even see it as foreshadowing that Gendry objected to any relationship between himself and Arya was that she would be Lady Stark and he would be a blacksmith. If Gendry is legitimised as a Lord of the Stormlands, then he really would be on her level (politically speaking) and a relationship really would be possible. (IMO, Arya isn't going to end up with anyone and I don't believe Gendry will be legitimised, but perhaps their S3 conversation was foreshadowing of their fates.) 1 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 On 21/04/2018 at 6:01 AM, SeanC said: That would only be an issue if you assume that the show must necessarily put Sandor wherever he would most logically go. I think that's wholly unwarranted. The showrunners will put Sandor wherever they need him to be for whatever story they want to happen for him, with minimal or no justification if need be (and in truth, I don't think it would be that big a stretch to have him as part of the the castle garrison, say, because it's a strategically vital place). [...] Ultimately, when it comes to SanSan in the show I always find myself in a bit of a circular process. I find the arguments mustered by fans of the pairing that it is being cleverly hinted at by the show to be almost uniformly unconvincing (and strangely, the people who tend to make this argument also generally bash the show for being badly-written, despite that their arguments hinge on incredibly subtle hints being woven into otherwise unrelated scenes over several seasons), but at the same time, I have no illusions that the writers mightn't just pull something out of their ass at the last minute, so I cannot be definitive. I do base my speculation on what seems logical -while aware that the show has sometimes a particular definition of logic, and although I believe some of it will be clearer once the ending is known. And I agree about Sansa/Hound. I wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldn't bet 100% against it. On 16/04/2018 at 4:58 PM, screamin said: If we saw a kid SR's age watching horribly violent R-rated movies on video and applauding at the deaths because the bad guys merit them, I don't think we'd immediately write off the kid as a hopeless sociopath. We'd blame the adult who let him view the movies and taught him to indiscriminately applaud the violence, and we'd take the stone out of his hand when he's about to throw it at a frog and explain why it's wrong. It may not work, but most kids DO grow out of it. And another sign of a sociopath is that they have no strong emotional bonds to anything or anyone. I think SR doesn't fit that profile, as he has formed an emotional bond to Sansa after losing his mother. For her sake he faces his fear of walking along that mountain path, and when he thinks he's hurt her feelings in Sansa's last chapter, he's horrified, showing that he is capable of empathizing with her feelings. I do think he has some hope to grow up to be a better person. But GRRM being what he is, I expect he'll show SR making some heartwarming progress toward that goal before he kills him off unmercifully. But it isn't about videos. If Sweetrobin was applauding or reenacting stories he'd been told by the Vale equivalent of Old Nan, I'd agree with you that it wouldn't mean anything. Heck, I'm an adult, I cheer on Arya's revenge but I wouldn't bake people into pies or cheer on people doing so in real life. Yet, Sweetrobin applauds at real people thrown to their deaths and wants more of those; and he knows those deaths are real. Hence, it's apples and orange to me. In S6, he was a teenager and still Moon Door trigger-happy (Royce) so I don't think he'll get any better. I don't exonerate Lysa and the education she gave him, but nature and nurture both doomed him, imo. I'm not even sure he'll be seen again on the show. Royce could have mentioned him, for example when Littlefinger appealed to him ("I obey to lord Robert", instead of "I don't think so"). He didn't. That's partly why I suspect that the Vale won't count much in the endgame except as a food, troops, or maybe asylum provider. On 17/04/2018 at 3:22 PM, Eyes High said: Some speculate that if D&D seriously intended Sansa to end up with the Hound, they would have cast someone substantially younger (and hotter) than Rory McCann. I'm skeptical, though; I doubt D&D knew whether or not SanSan was endgame when they were casting the show back in 2009 or whenever it was. They had to be aware that the Sansan ship was a "thing" in the fandom, though. They posted at least once on the Westeros.org board, IIRC. They might not read boards themselves and aren't on social media (I understand and like their reasons, actually) but they certainly have people reporting at least the general trends to them* re: Dorne changes in S6. And although they didn't know the endgame, they read the books, where the romantic elements are present. They might have overlooked the age/bishonen-ness issues when they cast McCann, but I do think they weighed their options -or asked GRRM and got and answer. *Off topic, but did anyone watch the Thor screenwriter reaction to Honest Trailers? The anecdote about the hammer cracks me up, and it shows how even big directors like Kenneth Branagh are aware of "fanboys" (or fangirls) and gauge their reaction. 21 hours ago, Eyes High said: True. Even in many of what you would expect to be the big "SanSan" scenes in S2--Joffrey beating Sansa, the riot, etc.--equal or greater weight is given to Tyrion and Sansa, not SanSan. In the deleted 2x03 scene where it seems as if the writers were going for a version of the serpentine steps scene in the books, Tyrion even "rescues" Sansa when Sandor is bothering her! Many Tyrion/Sansa scenes are so very shippy on rewatch. It's even more obvious when Margaery and Sansa discuss the latter's marriage to Tyrion, Sansa seems at one point more curious than anything, and Margaery's attitude is bordering Shipper on Deck. I didn't realize it back then (Sophie T. not being of age and all) but maybe I registered it and that's why I consider the Tyrion/Sansa marriage as a possible endgame for them. The show isn't very subtle with ships -not that they can afford it mostly, with so many pages and so few hours. Link to comment
Eyes High April 22, 2018 Author Share April 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said: And although they didn't know the endgame, they read the books, where the romantic elements are present. They might have overlooked the age/bishonen-ness issues when they cast McCann, but I do think they weighed their options -or asked GRRM and got and answer. Fair enough. I think D&D would have to be willfully blind to fail to see the romantic elements of SanSan in the books. Quote Many Tyrion/Sansa scenes are so very shippy on rewatch. Oh, yeah. If I did think Sansa was going to survive and that she was going to end up with someone, based on how the show has been written to date, I would say that it's definitely going to be Tyrion. Sansa/Tyrion had a lot of shippy stuff thrown in that was not in the books: Sansa saying "I just do" when Littlefinger asks her how she knows Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, for one. Most can agree that the TV writers seem to have downplayed Sansa's relationship with Sandor, but I'd also argue that they played up her relationship with Tyrion. Whether that will have any bearing on what happens with both of those relationships in S8 remains to be seen: TV Tyrion seems hung up on Dany, and TV Sansa seems painfully aware of the precarious situation her previous marriage to a Lannister put her in. It does seem guaranteed that the two characters will meet again in the show. Edited April 22, 2018 by Eyes High 4 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Whether that will have any bearing on what happens with both of those relationships in S8 remains to be seen: TV Tyrion seems hung up on Dany, and TV Sansa seems painfully aware of the precarious situation her previous marriage to a Lannister put her in. It does seem guaranteed that the two characters will meet again in the show. ICAM. The way the relationship was depicted on the show makes it an option to me, the most logical one if she survives, but certainly not a guarantee in any way. I do look forward to them meeting again, because Tyrion is the one character left who brings the good sides of Sansa in my eyes. (RIP Margaery) 3 Link to comment
Katsullivan April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 (edited) On 4/21/2018 at 8:55 AM, bubble sparkly said: Honestly, if Jon and Sansa ended up married they would be much more like Robert and Cersei imo. Jon still pining for the love of his life who died, and Sansa wanting more authority and power than just being Jon's wife but Jon not listening to her and keeping her in the backseat. Given the constant bickering and disagreeing about everything that we saw in s7, their marriage would surely be incredibly unhappy. I'd give it a few years of frigid bitterness before they are both taking lovers on the side (or Jon might stay celibate since he seems to favour only sleeping with women he's in love with) and Sansa is passing off some hot fool's kid as the Stark heir lol. This is kind of brilliant. Jon and Sansa might love each other - now, that they are literally all they have left of their family, but they don't seem to like each other very much, and their marriage would be a very unhappy one. Sansa would always be second-guessing him and not-so-subtly reminding him that she's the true Stark heir, not him. Amusingly, any child of Sansa's would be the true Stark, not Jon's. On 4/21/2018 at 9:59 AM, bubble sparkly said: It's kind of unrealistic that none of the prominent Northerners tried to forcefully encourage Jon to legitimise himself and marry one of their age-appropriate daughters in s7 (with wedding and bedding happening quickly before he left for Dragonstone). I would actually be intrigued at Jon's reaction if highborn Northern women started flirting with him in s8, especially considering these woman would have almost certainly given him a wide berth if they encountered him when he was growing up. Would he feel a little resentful that women who likely thought he was a bastard unworthy of their time 7 years ago would now consider him prime marriage material? It's even more unrealistic that Tyrion never tried to match-make Jon and Daenerys considering that he advised her to leave Daario behind to make sure she was available for a situation like this. Heck, when he was trying to parly for Tarly Junior's life, he could have reminded her that she was looking for suitors. On 4/21/2018 at 10:14 AM, GraceK said: The only reason IMO this idea is Jonsa is even a thing is because of the show. Sophie Turner and Kit Harington are both beautiful people and they had a very touching and lovely reunion in season 6. Beautiful white people, if I might qualify. Coming from someone in The Flash fandom who watched how the fans and audience and media turned against the interracial couple who had grown up together but were definitely neither related by blood or adoption. Westallen also had a touching and lovely reunion in the Pilot - complete with running jump, hug for the ages, and "I can't believe you're alive" hand-over-hearting... but that wasn't deemed as ship-worthy. #notbitter 3 hours ago, Eyes High said: but I'd also argue that they played up her relationship with Tyrion. Good call. And Peter Dinklage is as far away from the ugly nose-less Tyrion of the books. Heck, even his scar is attractive. It makes more sense for him to be in love with Dany, or at least slightly infatuated with her - not because of her beauty (although that helps) but because of the kindness and respect she's shown to him, despite all reasons not to. No one has had so much automatic faith in Tyrion with so little personal gain as Dany has, and that moment in the s6 finale where he kneels to receive the Hand of the Queen, and there are tears in his eyes, I could bet good money was the moment where he completely fell in love with her. Of course, misogyny being what it is, his feelings would seem as Dany being "Mary-Sued" (gosh, I hate that term) and not the inevitable progression that it is. Plus D & D, like most people, prefer Sansa and her soft power over Dany and her hard power. So on that misogynistic basis alone, I can imagine D & D "giving" Tyrion's feelings to Sansa, on the apropos of basically nothing. Edited April 22, 2018 by Katsullivan 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 22, 2018 Author Share April 22, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: ICAM. The way the relationship was depicted on the show makes it an option to me, the most logical one if she survives, but certainly not a guarantee in any way. I do look forward to them meeting again, because Tyrion is the one character left who brings the good sides of Sansa in my eyes. (RIP Margaery) No matter what happens, Tyrion meeting Sansa again is going to be very interesting. 1 hour ago, Katsullivan said: Good call. And Peter Dinklage is as far away from the ugly nose-less Tyrion of the books. The show amusingly lampshaded that TV Tyrion is hot by having Margaery point it out. As for the show playing up Tyrion and Sansa's relationship, there are so many show-only moments that do so. Individually they're nothing much, but taken in sum, they make me wonder: 1. Tyrion randomly being inserted into Sandor and Sansa's serpentine steps deleted scene (2x03). 2. Tyrion offering his hand to Sansa to help her stand and Sansa taking it (2x04). 3. Tyrion freaking out and saying "Where's Sansa?" when he sees the High Septon torn limb from limb (2x06). 4. Sansa getting sassy with Tyrion by implying she's wishing for his death and Tyrion smiling in response (2x09). 5. Romcom weirdness with Sansa/Margaery and Tyrion/Bronn (3x07). 6. Tyrion promises never to hurt Sansa (3x08). 7. Being friendly before news of the Red Wedding hits (3x10). 8. Tyrion trying to comfort Sansa and Sansa confiding to him about her nightmares (4x01). 9. Talking to each other at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding ("We have a new queen"/"Better her than you") (4x02). 10. Tyrion taking Sansa's hand during the Robb portion of the dwarf play (4x02). 11. Sansa retrieving the cup where it rolled under the table so that Tyrion doesn't have to crawl (4x02). 12. Tyrion and Sansa both denying the other was responsible for Joffrey's murder (with Sansa being able to give no reason for knowing that Tyrion didn't do it other than "I just do") (4x04). 13. Sansa insisting that Tyrion didn't want to marry her (4x05). Sansa and Tyrion's TV arcs go off the rails after Season 4, so there's not much that seems significant one way or another, although of course Sansa does praise Tyrion's kindness and gentleness when she's hoping to shame Ramsay into not raping her in 5x06, and she does mention that Tyrion was always kind to her in 7x02, even if she won't go so far as to say that in front of a hall full of Lannister-hating Northern lords. Tyrion doesn't mention Sansa once between 4x06 and 7x03, although he does almost immediately bring her up to Jon when they meet, so there's that. Quote It makes more sense for him to be in love with Dany, or at least slightly infatuated with her - not because of her beauty (although that helps) but because of the kindness and respect she's shown to him, despite all reasons not to. No one has had so much automatic faith in Tyrion with so little personal gain as Dany has, and that moment in the s6 finale where he kneels to receive the Hand of the Queen, and there are tears in his eyes, I could bet good money was the moment where he completely fell in love with her. I completely agree. It would be strange if Tyrion didn't fall in love with her. Quote Of course, misogyny being what it is, his feelings would seem as Dany being "Mary-Sued" (gosh, I hate that term) and not the inevitable progression that it is. Plus D & D, like most people, prefer Sansa and her soft power over Dany and her hard power. So on that misogynistic basis alone, I can imagine D & D "giving" Tyrion's feelings to Sansa, on the apropos of basically nothing. I tend to think that whatever happens (or doesn't happen) with Book Tyrion's love life will be roughly mirrored in the show. I don't think D&D would "give" Tyrion's feelings to Sansa unless he falls in love with her in the books, too. When it comes to TV Tyrion's feelings for Dany, the leaked Season 7 episode outlines lean pretty heavily on the idea that Tyrion is in love with Dany. Bronn was supposed to notice it and comment on it in 7x07. He was also supposed to warn Tyrion that he was better off not loving a girl like Dany, that a girl like Dany was not "manageable" (....which is yeah, misogynistic and gross). I'm guessing that TV Tyrion will run into trouble with TV Dany in Season 8, although you don't need the leaked outlines to read the tea leaves there. The leaked episode outlines also state (apparently unironically) that Sansa is "fond" of Tyrion, so we'll see. Edited April 22, 2018 by Eyes High 6 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 On 4/21/2018 at 7:14 AM, GraceK said: She pushes him to take Winterfell back and when he finally agrees acts likes her name alone will rally the North. Why does this sound like Dany in Season 7: show up, expect everyone to follow her for her name alone. Both women got checked on that assumption (was there a bit of sexism here for both? probably). Moreover, Jon received a huge boatload of credit that he didn't deserve (he avenged the Red Wedding? please). I disagree that Sansa wants to be Queen in the North or that she was angry at him for being king. If that was the case she would have snatched away his title while he was away at Dragonstone. In S06E10, Jon asserted that she was the Lady of Winterfell, which means she's restored to her rights. This aligns with his book views: "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa." Then, Jon gave her credit for saving the battle: "We're standing here because of you. The battle was lost until the Knight of the Vale came in. They came because of you." He wasn't angry, he seemed appreciative. We got the very important foreshadowing out of that storyline too, that the Northern Lords, like Randyll, are not going to bend to outsiders, and that their king went south and lost his kingdom to a foreign woman. This isn't going away in S8. If Dany can't handle two soldiers rejecting her authority over them, then what the hell is she going to do about the entire North rejecting her authority? In S7 Jon and Sansa had one argument that seems to be an important illustration of Jon's leadership style. However, when Jon holds court, the set-up appears to be "discussion/debate" - and Sansa should be allowed to express her views in such a forum. Jon feels like he's being undermined because he already has insecurities about ruling. Sansa's point that she should be able to question his decisions is accurate. Because dissent is a good thing - it means the ruler has to work for it. Sansa and the Northern Lords keep Jon on his toes. He has to justify himself and explain the rationale behind his decisions. There are some would-be rulers in this story who are very unpracticed at this. All of it seems minor, though, because Sansa tells him he's good at ruling. He looks like he has anxieties about that, which makes sense for his book character. He probably has a ton of hang-ups about being in Robb's position, because he never feels good enough or that he deserves it. It's difficult to me to see how Dany helped him, in this respect. He's not a ruler anymore because she agreed to subordinate him to her. Now, he's only going to be looked at with suspicion and even more mistrust because of this alliance, which will cost him. She has done nothing to help him be a better ruler, or help him work through his insecurities. 4 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Katsullivan said: Plus D & D, like most people, prefer Sansa and her soft power over Dany and her hard power. So on that misogynistic basis alone, I can imagine D & D "giving" Tyrion's feelings to Sansa, on the apropos of basically nothing. Not basically nothing, as was pointed above (also, Bronn flat out said that Tyrion wanted Sansa, in S3). The bases of the Tyrion/Sansa relationship, whatever it is or will be, were developed on the show during S2/S3 before Tyrion even met Dany in the books (since it's not done yet) so they seem pretty independent from one another. I don't understand either how Tyrion having feelings for Sansa would take anything away from Dany or be a slight against the hard power woman. She's by all means in love with Jon, and loved back. As for the "misogynistic basis alone", do we know exactly what GRRM shared with D&D before the Big Sit-In? Tyrion was the breakout character of S1/S2, and GRRM was writing for the show during S2/S3. Maybe the reason why the show played up the Sansa/Tyrion relationship is there. On a side personal note, as a character I vastly prefer Dany to Sansa, so it would be nice if you could avoid off the mark generalizations, thank you. I think that Tyrion is very fond of Dany, and even a bit infatuated with her. I have no problem with it, what I don't want is jealousy and a love triangle. It would annoy me, to say the least, if three of my favorite and those who are at the helm of the fight against the AOTD were embroiled in petty relationship drama, it would be even worse than Cersei or Littlefinger and their vain power plays. Nevertheless, I'm optimistic and I tend to think that if there's a romantic dimension to Tyrion/Dany, it will be a gender inversion of Eowyn/Aragorn. And Sansa might be Faramir in the equation. Edited April 22, 2018 by Happy Harpy 3 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 Re: D&D being misogynists because they like soft power. Yeah, they're godawful at writing women, but I don't think this is fair. Hard power is coded as masculine. Disliking hard power means disliking violent masculinity no matter the gender of the person using it. I would collapse Dany and Cersei under the "hard power" umbrella. Both want to win by any means possible. But using it means they're bound to lose anyway. Everything looks like a nail to them. I dread a Cersei vs. Dany standoff in S8, because it's going to get a lot of innocent people killed, and neither will end up winning anyway. /prediction 1 Link to comment
SeanC April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 40 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: I disagree that Sansa wants to be Queen in the North or that she was angry at him for being king. The motivations of the characters in Winterfell are so muddled that you can argue it pretty much as you want, but I'd say Sansa absolutely does want to be queen in Season 7. Further, I'd say that's pretty normal, since (as the show belatedly remembers midway through the season), she's the rightful heir and she has major policy disagreements with the person who actually has the job. There's nothing really wrong with wishing you were in charge; pretty much every politician probably wishes they were running things. Now, the actual unknown thing about Sansa's attitude that season was to what extent, if any, was her desire to be in charge ever in danger of going from "if I were queen, I'd do things differently" to "maybe I should overthrow Jon". The leaked outline seemed to suggest there was at least one such moment in the scene where the nobles raise the idea of her rights to the throne, but in the finished product the scene is so inscrutably shot (Sansa doesn't even get a closeup) that I have no idea what we're supposed to think was going through her head in that moment, and her scene with Littlefinger in a later episode seems to suggest that she is sincerely motivated mainly by a desire to keep things on an even keel while Jon's away. So...??? 10 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: Re: D&D being misogynists because they like soft power. Yeah, they're godawful at writing women, but I don't think this is fair. Hard power is coded as masculine. Disliking hard power means disliking violent masculinity no matter the gender of the person using it. On another point, while I absolutely agree that Sansa is supposed to represent a soft power approach, it's funny to me when you look at the execution, because I can't think of any notable instance where she actually uses soft power successfully in recent seasons. Certainly, nothing she did in Season 7 fits that bill (she's in charge, she gives orders, they're followed). She's actually written as being quite bad at persuading people to do what she wants, even if the writers don't seem to realize that. 2 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: I would collapse Dany and Cersei under the "hard power" umbrella. Both want to win by any means possible. Absolutely. That's why Dany didn't burn the Red Keep/KL in 7x04; listening to Jon's objection that if she did, she'd be "more of the same". That's why she endangered her three dragons, the most powerful weapons known in the GoT universe and the three only children she (thinks she)'ll ever have, and actually lost one; rejecting the objections of her Hand who precisely pointed the cost to her quest for the throne. Edited April 22, 2018 by Happy Harpy 2 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 (edited) And I disagree with the idea that we have proof that the writers "like" soft power or hard power just because this or that character use hard or soft power. Edited April 22, 2018 by OhOkayWhat Link to comment
Meredith Quill April 22, 2018 Share April 22, 2018 Mod Note: Please cease the writing critique discussion. This topic is to discuss how the show may end, not debate over whether the writers are misogynistic or not. Any posts on that subject made after this mod note will be removed. Thanks. 1 Link to comment
WindyNights April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 On 4/21/2018 at 7:49 AM, Eyes High said: True. Even in many of what you would expect to be the big "SanSan" scenes in S2--Joffrey beating Sansa, the riot, etc.--equal or greater weight is given to Tyrion and Sansa, not SanSan. In the deleted 2x03 scene where it seems as if the writers were going for a version of the serpentine steps scene in the books, Tyrion even "rescues" Sansa when Sandor is bothering her! Cogman just said that they didn't know where GRRM was going with the Quiet Isle storyline. It may be that GRRM told them Sandor's endgame without explaining how or why he leaves the Quiet Isle. If Cogman really meant to imply that GRRM hasn't told them anything about Sandor's fate post-AFFC, would he really drop such a bombshell as a casual aside? Apart from the three WTF moments, the writers are very stingy with book spoilers. They're willing to drop three of the main twists but not where Sandor might be going? Come on, lol. Anyways, the Hound's mantle has been passed on in the books. First to Rorge and then to Lem. The Hound could come back but Cleganebowl is a regression of the character and that's the context people expect him to come back in. 1) Sandor is crippled. 2) He's on the Quiet Isle to atone. 3) The novels have a very anti-vengeance bent to them. 4) He's on the Quiet Isle learning to let go of his hate and find a different path besides violence. 5) Lem is the Hound now. Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 4 hours ago, SeanC said: Now, the actual unknown thing about Sansa's attitude that season was to what extent, if any, was her desire to be in charge ever in danger of going from "if I were queen, I'd do things differently" to "maybe I should overthrow Jon". The leaked outline seemed to suggest there was at least one such moment in the scene where the nobles raise the idea of her rights to the throne, but in the finished product the scene is so inscrutably shot (Sansa doesn't even get a closeup) that I have no idea what we're supposed to think was going through her head in that moment, and her scene with Littlefinger in a later episode seems to suggest that she is sincerely motivated mainly by a desire to keep things on an even keel while Jon's away. It's not that complicated. She doesn't want to be a queen under Littlefinger's thumb and she doesn't want to be queen if she has to overthrow Jon. She's happy that he's king and she wants to advise him. She tells him he's good at ruling. She doesn't want him to leave the North. But once he's left, she's preparing his forces for an attack. She's got her own ideas, but she's not a "my way or the highway" type. Sansa has worked with men in every political situation. She knows how to let a man be the face while she works behind the scenes. I disagree with the Pawn to Player thread that she actively wants to climb the ladder; if she could simply be listened to, without having to rule, I think that's her ideal. I think the line "I thought about what I wanted, never about what I had" means that she is appreciating family life at WF and rejecting her old self--the girl who wanted to be queen and wife of the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms. In Season 8, if the Lords elect her as Queen of the North to mount a resistance against Dany's rule then she may agree. But I don't think she will be actively working behind the scenes to make that happen, and I don't think she wants to fight her family over it. I think her arc actually mirrors Tyrion's. She wants to be useful - just like him - above all else. 2 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: Absolutely. That's why Dany didn't burn the Red Keep/KL in 7x04; listening to Jon's objection that if she did, she'd be "more of the same". That's why she endangered her three dragons, the most powerful weapons known in the GoT universe and the three only children she (thinks she)'ll ever have, and actually lost one; rejecting the objections of her Hand who precisely pointed the cost to her quest for the throne. She only agreed to do this if Cersei didn't have an advantage over her. Dany said "Your kingdom is safe once the Northern threat is dealt with." In other words, it's right back to her default state of burn baby burn once she checks the Night King off her list (like it's going to be that easy?!). So say by mid-S8, Cersei does have a field advantage over Dany, either because most of Dany's armies are wiped out, or Cersei succeeds in stealing a dragon (per fAegon/Euron's Winds plot) or at least severely wounding one. How would Dany react then? What if Cersei hides in the tunnels of under King's Landing and Dany can't find her. What is Dany going to do? Once the Northern Lords won't budge no matter what approach she tries, what's Dany's plan? Edited April 23, 2018 by Colorful Mess 1 Link to comment
anamika April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) On 4/21/2018 at 10:29 PM, SeanC said: The most obvious difference there, in my view, would be that Arya and Gendry's pre-separation interactions were obviously intended to have (and were perceived by the audience to have) a component of potential romance (whether or not that potential is ultimately fulfilled). The "milady" scene in Season 3, especially. There's foundation there that the audience remembers. There's nothing of the sort with Sansa and the Hound. They had basically two meaningful dialogue scenes, and the writers pretty carefully tried to keep any intimation that he had romantic interest in her out of it (meanwhile, I really have no idea what Sansa is supposed to think of the Hound in the show, because her POV toward him was excised almost entirely). This is funny because while GRRM has indicated that Arya and Gendry have separate futures, he has not done the same with SanSan. He has said that there is something there and how he puts in stuff for the fans and still has Sansa thinking of the Hound in her last few chapters. SanSan is his version of the beauty and the beast. Meanwhile Arya no longer considers Gendry to be part of her pack because she feels that he abandoned her and has stopped thinking of him. Of course on the show Joe Dempsie can show off his 6 pack while Arya looks him up and down while it's hard to imagine those scenes with the Hound. We did get the most interaction between Sansa and the Hound in 2x09 - Blackwater, which GRRM wrote. I don't know what any of this means if the show is planning on aligning with the book endings for Sansa and Arya. I doubt Rory McCann's casting had anything to do with David and Dan deciding that SanSan was not important. After all they only knew what Sansa's endpoint was after season 2 - where they sat with GRRM and had each character's story in the books laid out. If GRRM told them then that Sansa is going to end up as Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North with her beau the Hound - then that's the ending they should give her if they plan on following book endings. If the Hound is not all that important to her book ending, then it's likely they are not going to interact next season. Or D&D may do their own ending for Sansa considering how much they have deviated from her book plot. I think that we just cannot say anything from D&D's writing till date of whether SanSan will happen or not. They don't seem to put much thought into these relationships anymore. We can see this where even the directors don't know the plot, the script itself is unsure on what the scene is supposed to mean, the writing is muddled and confused and the actors each have their own version of what their story arc was for that season. The highlight here was when all the side characters in Arya's story meet Jon and not one of them mentions her. Let's have some macho male bonding instead. It's a joke at this point. This was Gwendoline Christie's take on her plot in season 7: Quote “[W]hat’s recurrent in Brienne’s life is forming relationships with people that start with an opposing force, then a begrudging mutual respect and, out of that, a deep respect and pure love,” she said. “That happens again this season. Brienne will realize a deep alliance.” Quote Brienne starts to question those preconceived ideas…of how her life should be, how she should live her life, what loyalty truly means. Does loyal mean adhering blindly to someone who perhaps is making poor decisions, or does it mean trying to steer them towards the better way?” I doubt we saw any of this. She had one fight scene with Arya, got send off by Sansa and then goes to the Dragonpit and tells Jaime fuck loyalty. 8 hours ago, Eyes High said: When it comes to TV Tyrion's feelings for Dany, the leaked Season 7 outlines lean pretty heavily on the idea that Tyrion is in love with Dany. Bronn was supposed to notice it and comment on it in 7x07. He was also supposed to warn Tyrion that he was better off not loving a girl like Dany, that a girl like Dany was not "manageable" (....which is yeah, misogynistic and gross). I'm guessing that TV Tyrion will run into trouble with TV Dany in Season 8, although you don't need the leaked outlines to read the tea leaves there. The leaked episode outlines also state (apparently unironically) that Sansa is "fond" of Tyrion, so we'll see. I do think we will have book Tyrion finally showing up next season. As you say, the script outlines indicated this and Dinklage mentions how Tyrion was smitten with Dany. In the books, Tyrion has the tendency to fall in love with all these pretty young women and then feel self-pity and bitterness when he is rejected. With Sansa, he did the right thing and left her alone. But in ADwD, Tyrion sees revulsion in the slave's eyes and proceeds to rape her. If Tyion does fall for Dany and she rejects him, bitter Tyrion could very well betray her for that in the books. Not for Cersei or Jaime. But because he is angry about her falling for Jon. In the show, I am not sure how D&D are going to justify saint Tyrion's betrayal if it happens. Probably through some bad writing and illogical plot no doubt. Tyrion is already having big differences of opinion with Dany. But I don't know if that is enough for him to betray her when the army of the dead is at their doorstep... Sansa's 'fondness' for Tyrion may play a part in so far as her trusting him to be the good Lannister. Edited April 23, 2018 by anamika Link to comment
screamin April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: But it isn't about videos. If Sweetrobin was applauding or reenacting stories he'd been told by the Vale equivalent of Old Nan, I'd agree with you that it wouldn't mean anything. Heck, I'm an adult, I cheer on Arya's revenge but I wouldn't bake people into pies or cheer on people doing so in real life. Yet, Sweetrobin applauds at real people thrown to their deaths and wants more of those; and he knows those deaths are real. Hence, it's apples and orange to me. I used videos as an example easily relatable to our world, but my example about kids the same age killing frogs is similar. The frog's life is real, but the kid who throws rocks and kills it doesn't think of it as causing pain and ending a life because the child hasn't fully learned empathy yet. From an SF writer I like: "A man slips on a banana peel and breaks his back. The adult stops laughing at that point, the child does not." Thing is, we have few examples I can point to in our world of people being literally killed in front of children by their parents as a demonstration of a good, proper thing, hence I had to use videos as an a example of the fact that kids have no inborn empathy toward the sight of people being harmed - they have to be learn that and be taught that. I guarantee that if adults DID order executions in front of their own children since babyhood as a right and proper way of ruling and punishing evil, vanishingly few six-year-olds would suddenly rise up and scold their parents for wrongdoing from a spontaneously attained position of moral superiority, if they'd never been taught that what their parents were doing was wrong. Quote In S6, he was a teenager and still Moon Door trigger-happy (Royce) so I don't think he'll get any better. I don't exonerate Lysa and the education she gave him, but nature and nurture both doomed him, imo. I'm not even sure he'll be seen again on the show. Royce could have mentioned him, for example when Littlefinger appealed to him ("I obey to lord Robert", instead of "I don't think so"). He didn't. In the show, he's a teenager because Lino Facioli, who played him in the first season as an 11 year old (even though Book SR was six), had grown up into a teenager by the time they gave him another cameo. They did this for a bit of continuity, while they trashed GRRM's entire Vale storyline. Given the utter lack of interest of the showrunners over anything happening in the Vale, I really don't think we can take what little we saw of Show SR as representative of anything that will happen to his book counterpart. I'd be shocked if the showrunners even bother showing SR again. But Book SR is still only eight, and therefore he cannot be judged a sociopath, because that can't be diagnosed in children, and I doubt GRRM is going to write SR growing up old enough to BE a teenager or an adult (sociopathic or otherwise). Besides, as I said, sociopaths have no deep emotional ties, and SR has developed a strong emotional tie to Sansa, and shown empathy for her hurt feelings, which gives hope that SR could grow up to be something better. GRRM being who he is, I expect he'll use that hope to wring pathos out of SR's inevitable agonizing death scene. Edited April 23, 2018 by screamin 2 Link to comment
GraceK April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, anamika said: In the show, I am not sure how D&D are going to justify saint Tyrion's betrayal if it happens. Probably through some bad writing and illogical plot no doubt. Tyrion is already having big differences of opinion with Dany. But I don't know if that is enough for him to betray her when the army of the dead is at their doorstep... I don’t think it’s gonna be anything dramatic or even intentional. I think It’s Tyrion’s softserving battle strategy and trying to spare his family from fire and blood that is the betrayal. We were shown that in season 7. Cersei was literally handled advantages and Dany was knocked down because of Tyrion being unwilling to play hardball. If Dany was truly as power crazed and evil as some people are accusing her of being, she would have been on the Iron Throne in episode 2 and have been able to help Jon fight the NK at full force and the NK wouldn’t have an ice Dragon and Cersei would have been neutralized. Instead, in wanting to minimize the harm done to innocent civilians, and not wanting to burn cities and be queen of the ashes, she lost 2 allies and a dragon. Despite this, she is still going to put her effort into saving the world, while Cersei meanwhile is waiting for her to exhaust her forces and move behind her back to try to kill her. Season 8 is gonna hand even more losses to Dany because she’s the one throwing everything she has into this fight with Jon to save the north , and the world. Seriously she rode on dragonback to rescue a group of men no questions asked like a superhero . How people see her as the villain is beyond me. Also, that’s the reason Jon “bent the knee”. He didn’t have too anymore. She didn’t make him. In Beyond the wall, in bed, when he was recovering, she told him she would fight with him, that together, they would destroy the Night King. As equals. She saw with her own eyes , she believed him and she devastated that she didn’t listen before. He saw what she lost, he saw that she was willing to risk her life to save him and the others, and he saw what it cost her and that made him see her in a whole different light and that’s what made him pledge himself to her. That’s why she was so touched. Geez. It’s not some conspiracy, the writers have come out and said it. So I’m really sorry if your a Dany hater and think Jon has a nefarious scheme in mind, or will kill her for Sansa or something, but Jon really loves her so deal with it. ? Edited April 23, 2018 by GraceK 5 Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 Does anyone really expect the Northerners to bitch about Dany for more than 1 or 2 episodes? Like, I know they are massive idiots, but they would have to be the biggest dumbasses on the planet if they tell Dany to take a hike when the army of the dead has breached the wall and is heading straight for them! The Northerners have 10,000 fighting men, compared to Dany who has at least say 50,000 men plus two dragons. If the Northerners are so offended by Jon bending the knee and delivering the North its best chance of survival, it seems to me they have 4 options. 1) Suck it up and accept Dany as Queen, and work together with her army to try and defeat NK. 2) Tell Dany they don't accept her and demand her and her army leave, and then face certain death when the NK's army easily defeats the puny Northern army in a few weeks. 3) Tell Dany they don't accept her and engage her in battle before the NK arrives, wherein Dany's superior army will easily defeat the puny Northern army. 4) Fall into line with Dany to ensure they have her help to fight the NK, then after the battle the survivors can try to obtain Northern independence through negotiation or battle. Frankly, I don't even really expect there to be too much conflict between Sansa and Dany. I bet there will be friction at the start as Sansa was annoyed at the end of last season when she learned Jon had bent the knee, but I wouldn't be at all shocked if they were on good terms by the middle of the season. Dany and Sansa have both been forced into marriages they didn't want and have been subjected to rapes by their husbands. They have both been physically assaulted and verbally abused for prolonged periods (Sansa in KL and with Ramsey, and Dany with Viserys) and eventually enacted brutal revenge on their abusers. Given these unfortunate shared experiences I would image that Dany and Sansa will eventually be able to relate quite well to each other. Also, Sansa will quickly come to learn that Jon and Dany are in love with each other and that Dany risked her life and lost a dragon in the process of saving Jon beyond the wall. One would expect Sansa to be grateful for Dany's selfless actions to save her brother's life. Furthermore, give it a few episodes and Sansa (and everyone else) will likely discover that Dany is carrying Jon's child. Given the Starks are all about family I can't see any reason why they won't all welcome Dany into the "pack". Finally, if Sansa is as smart as she thinks she is she would realise it is in her best interest for Dany and Jon to marry and sit on the throne in King's Landing. That way she gets to be Warden of the North with minimal interference from Jon and Dany, who would presumably love her and trust her enough to leave her to her own devices (like Robert did with Ned). If Jon sticks around the North he gets to be the one in charge and Sansa has no real power and no guarantee that her opinions will be considered. We already saw in s7 that Jon doesn't consult Sansa before making decisions and doesn't appear to agree with any of her ideas. 4 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, anamika said: The highlight here was when all the side characters in Arya's story meet Jon and not one of them mentions her. Let's have some macho male bonding instead. Does the narrative need to create that bonding between them? Yes. Does the bonding need to be about Arya? No Does the narrative need someone (Sandor) to remember Arya ? Yes Does he remember? Yes And that's all. Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, GraceK said: she would have been on the Iron Throne in episode 2 and have been able to help Jon fight the NK at full force and the NK wouldn’t have an ice Dragon and Cersei would have been neutralized. Or maybe she would find no Iron Throne anymore or even a city with Cercei running to Castely Rock or somewhere else. And Jon would still need to convince Dany the WWs are real. Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said: She only agreed to do this if Cersei didn't have an advantage over her. No. Not in the two instances I mentioned: when she didn't burn KL in 7x04 and when she went North with her dragons to save Jon and co in 7x06. She renounced to or risked/sacrified her advantage over Cersei in both occasions. 5 hours ago, screamin said: I used videos as an example easily relatable to our world, but my example about kids the same age killing frogs is similar. The frog's life is real, but the kid who throws rocks and kills it doesn't think of it as causing pain and ending a life because the child hasn't fully learned empathy yet. From an SF writer I like: "A man slips on a banana peel and breaks his back. The adult stops laughing at that point, the child does not." The thing is, Sweetrobin is aware what death is or hurt is, and yet he goes on laughing. I also thought that the snow castle scene in S4 was pretty representative of what he is in a nutshell, with his attempt to be "nice" ending up in a violent tantrum. But I don't think we're ever going to agree here. As for the last of interest of the showrunners for the Vale storyline, it simply means imo that no one there is going to count in the endgame. 5 hours ago, anamika said: This is funny because while GRRM has indicated that Arya and Gendry have separate futures, There is no reliable source, it seems, but hearsay from a fanfiction writer's friend (not that there's anything wrong with writing fanfiction, but with hearsay there is). 4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said: Does anyone really expect the Northerners to bitch about Dany for more than 1 or 2 episodes? Like, I know they are massive idiots, but they would have to be the biggest dumbasses on the planet if they tell Dany to take a hike when the army of the dead has breached the wall and is heading straight for them! The Northerners have 10,000 fighting men, compared to Dany who has at least say 50,000 men plus two dragons. Two episodes would already be too much. The audience knows the AOTD is on its way, it would be testing the patience of many to devote more screentime showcasing political stupidity -Cersei and Euron will be enough as is, imo. Personally, I'll be majorly pissed off if instead of all the reunions and bonding in WF I want, I have to sit through whiny Glover and old geezer Royce short-sighted grievances. I have good hope it won't happen, though; since if some Northern lords bite it, and some will bite it for sure, the reaction D&D want is "oh naw" and not "good riddance", and the latter would probably be the general sentiment were they to be a thorn in Jon's pretty side. I'll take one scene, two, tops, to tie this loose end before the big battle. I can imagine that Jon keeping his word to be back with a bigger army, dragonglass etc. might be enough to calm the unrest of his vassals, who were only worried he abandoned them -maybe with LF instigating. Glover and Royce make a remark about it as Jon and Dany enter WF, et voilà. There could also be a scene before his and Dany's arrival, where the lords complain, and get some right proper Arya or Lyanna Mormont's verbal ass-kicking, and then the big ass army, dragons etc. shut them up definitely. Or, there could be a big meeting in the big WF hall after Jon and Dany's arrival, where some lords reproach Jon with bending the knee. "Knee what knee? We're getting married" "My queen = my wife". Bomb dropped, political problem solved. Sansa, if she truly killed her self-serving ambitions and sense of entitlement with LF, should be on board of the Dany train. Cautious at first, certainly, but not hostile. Edited April 23, 2018 by Happy Harpy 1 Link to comment
anamika April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: There is no reliable source, it seems, but hearsay from a fanfiction writer's friend (not that there's anything wrong with writing fanfiction, but with hearsay there is). I do believe that this true, because when asked about the same at Balticon, GRRM mentioned once again that he would revisit them, but that they were both too young to go there - I think he was more concerned about Arya's age than Gendry's. Arya is now 11 and will probably be 12 when she meets up with Gendry again. I agree with GRRM - that's too young. I am not a fan of all these older men - The Hound, LF, Tyrion - falling for 11 year old Sansa in the books and I am not going to enjoy it if it happens with Arya. GRRM wanted the 5 year gap mainly for Arya and I think he now has to work his way around that. 3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: Personally, I'll be majorly pissed off if instead of all the reunions and bonding in WF I want, I have to sit through whiny Glover and old geezer Royce short-sighted grievances. Not only that, it's become tiresome. We had season 5 where Jon uses the AOTD argument - no one believes him and he ends up dead. Season 6 and he uses the AOTD argument, no one believes him except for Lyanna Mormont. Season 7 he starts off talking about the AOTD and the Northerners whine and grumble. Like dammit! All Jon has been doing for 3 seasons now is constantly talk about the AOTD with a bunch of knuckleheads refusing to listen. It's boring and I hope the culmination of this was the dragonpit wight demonstration. Even Kit Harington is going to be frustrated if he has to say the same dialogue next season about the AOTD while the Northerners complain. As someone above mentioned, the Northerners on the show are a bunch of petty fools but even they can't be this brain dead to refuse an offer of help to survive an existential threat. And surely they realize that they have to give something in return. They would rather die with their independence than bend the knee to live? Anyways, I can't watch these people complain again - it's just become ridiculous at this point. I hope instead we start seeing some of the bad-ass Northerners in the books making an appearance. Some of the casting spoilers leads me to believe this will happen. Also I would be cheering if Dany let Drogon have Royce and Glover for dinner. Political disaster? Sure. But they are two of the most annoying side characters in the North and useless to boot. Sansa is more of a military expert than Yohn Royce. They can get rid of Royce and use Sansa as the head of the Vale army. While going through the Balticon stuff, I found this GRRM quote: Quote "Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don't know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I've known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who's going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who's gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who's gonna die and how they're gonna die, and who's gonna get married and all that. The major characters." So does this confirm that there is still an Iron Throne at the end of it all and someone will be sitting on it? Singular. Also someone will be getting married. I don't think he was talking about the Ramsay-fArya marriage there. Or the Dany - Hizdahr marriage. It sounds like an endgame marriage to me. Edited April 23, 2018 by anamika 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 23, 2018 Author Share April 23, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, WindyNights said: They're willing to drop three of the main twists but not where Sandor might be going? Come on, lol. I said apart from the three main WTF twists, and yes, apart from those three specific instances, D&D have not said that something is from the (unpublished, post-ADWD) books. They will say when something isn't from the books--Benjen being Coldhands, Cersei blowing up the sept, etc.--but apart from the three WTF twists (two of which involve fairly minor characters), they won't confirm post-ADWD book spoilers. That's why I think it's unlikely that Cogman meant to reveal that GRRM hasn't told them what's up with Sandor after AFFC; he was more likely referring to the fact that GRRM didn't specifically tell them how Sandor gets off the Quiet Isle, which makes sense. 12 hours ago, anamika said: This is funny because while GRRM has indicated that Arya and Gendry have separate futures, he has not done the same with SanSan. He has said that there is something there and how he puts in stuff for the fans and still has Sansa thinking of the Hound in her last few chapters. SanSan is his version of the beauty and the beast. There's definitely something there with SanSan in the books, but Brienne/Jaime is his version of Beauty and the Beast, and he has said as much. Quote We did get the most interaction between Sansa and the Hound in 2x09 - Blackwater, which GRRM wrote. If we're invoking GRRM-written episodes, a good chunk of the Tyrion/Sansa moments I mentioned happened in GRRM-written episodes. Quote If GRRM told them then that Sansa is going to end up as Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North with her beau the Hound - then that's the ending they should give her if they plan on following book endings. If the Hound is not all that important to her book ending, then it's likely they are not going to interact next season. Sure, but the point is that if that is the ending they're moving towards, the writers haven't done much of anything to set it up, and D&D not being particularly subtle writers when it comes to this sort of thing (Brienne/Jaime being a good example), the fact that they haven't done much of anything to set it up means that Sandor/Sansa is probably not endgame in the show and (by extension) in the books. Quote Or D&D may do their own ending for Sansa considering how much they have deviated from her book plot. I think fans who believe that the ending for the POV Starks/Lannisters/Dany in the show will differ from the one GRRM plans in the books are kidding themselves, although I have no doubt that fans disappointed in the show's ending will tell themselves that GRRM is planning something completely different. Quote I think that we just cannot say anything from D&D's writing till date of whether SanSan will happen or not. There's always the possibility, sure, but going by the writing to date, prospects are looking pretty dim. Quote So does this confirm that there is still an Iron Throne at the end of it all and someone will be sitting on it? Singular. Also someone will be getting married. I don't think he was talking about the Ramsay-fArya marriage there. Or the Dany - Hizdahr marriage. It sounds like an endgame marriage to me. Jon and Dany are getting married!!! Edited April 23, 2018 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
GraceK April 23, 2018 Share April 23, 2018 (edited) Off topic I’m sorry but I thought this was really cute and funny I have a feeling I posted this before ??? Edited April 23, 2018 by GraceK Added a postscript 3 Link to comment
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