Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Arya feels responsible for Micha. She never stopped feeling remorseful. Sansa never batted an eye and still wanted to marry Joffrey even when her wolf was killed. 

Look, I'm not a Sansa hater. I respect who she is now and I  admire her. Doesn't mean i can't despise things she did. As much as I loved Robb, I think he was a total asshole to behead the Karstark and marry Talisa. Talk about your idiots!!! He's partly  responsible for what happened at the  red wedding. 

And when Arya was offered 3 lives, she should have chosen Joffrey, Tywin and Cersei and ended the war, and prevented mass suffering. In fact, her killing of that guy caused Tywin to think he was the target and costed many, MANY lives in tracking down his assassin. No one on this show has clean hands. But I still love them even though I see their faults.

Bat an eye for what?, she looked surprised as hell with what Joff was doing, she didn't get a chance to intervene.

I don't miss their faults, but Sansa wasn't involved with Mycah's death, and Cersei wasn't letting a wolf live, either Nymeria or Lady.

 Booby B could have order Lady sent home, instead he gave her to Cersei.

Well it was up to Ned to end that arrangement and he didn't, and there was a reason why in show he had to explain it to Arya, both book and show Sansa was in a no win situation, whether she told an absolute truth, or an absolute lie, and she did neither and still got burned.

Absolute truth means Arya gets punished, absolute lie, Arya gets punished more, Jamie was hunting her to take her hand and this was before Sansa even got called.

You and I may know or feel that Bobby B wouldn't punish her like that , but Sansa doesn't, she saw how he treated Cersei in WF and how he acted.

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Bat an eye for what?, she looked surprised as hell with what Joff was doing, she didn't get a chance to intervene.

I don't miss their faults, but Sansa wasn't involved with Mycah's death, and Cersei wasn't letting a wolf live, either Nymeria or Lady.

 Booby B could have order Lady sent home, instead he gave her to Cersei.

Well it was up to Ned to end that arrangement and he didn't, and there was a reason why in show he had to explain it to Arya, both book and show Sansa was in a no win situation, whether she told an absolute truth, or an absolute lie, and she did neither and still got burned.

Absolute truth means Arya gets punished, absolute lie, Arya gets punished more, Jamie was hunting her to take her hand and this was before Sansa even got called.

You and I may know or feel that Bobby B wouldn't punish her like that , but Sansa doesn't, she saw how he treated Cersei in WF and how he acted.

I disagree. I appreciate your perspective though. It's always good to see a different side of things . :)

[WindyNights]

On 9/26/2017 at 8:51 PM, MadMouse said:

If Jon or Dany dies the other will too, there's nothing sweet about one of them living while the other dies, its depressing and tragic. Can you imagine how horrible it would be for her to be stuck with Ser Friendzone or Aejon with Sansa. I would laugh though if the last holy shit moment reveals Dany was resurrected in the funereal pyre.

Sansa and Sam are the only characters I would almost guarantee survive.

Gendry will probably live since, like Edric Storm.

Jaime and Cersei will die together.

Arya and Tyrion death's are the ones that will shock people.

Ghost is a goner, he's going to die protecting his pack. Pregnant Dany.

Drogon and Rhaegal will die too. There death's might save either Jon or Dany. But they'll leave a clutch of Dragon eggs behind.

Daeneys is dying for sure including the baby likely in a heroic sacrifice.

I've recently been swayed to Jon surviving the endgame and outliving all of his siblings but not being king but choosing to wander the world.

 

Last scene would be an ancient Bran and a still young Jon Snow talking right before Bran passes away.

[Heathrowe]

How about....Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and this time has to sacrifice himself to save the world. Daenerys and the baby live, she takes the throne. Bittersweet. He's gone in some kind of blaze of light so no need for the 7 Kingdoms to really wrap their brains around the incest overmuch. Sansa gets Winterfell. Arya goes off adventuring with Brienne. Bran stays weird at Winterfell. Cersei and Jaime die. Tyrion lives and is the Hand. Most everyone else dies. 

 

 

ETA-I actually hate the whole Dany has a baby in six episodes idea/storyline but I do agree the anvils are impossible to ignore, so I've caved to it. But I don't like it.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Heathrowe

[WindyNights]

On 9/27/2017 at 3:00 PM, GraceK said:

Lady was innocent, but Sansa wasn't. She knew perfectly well what happened and took Joffreys side.  She helped sign Lady's death warrant. Even when Cersei said to have Lady killed, Sansa STILL didn't change her story and tell the truth. Just because Arya was smart enough to save her wolf when all Sansa did was defend Joffrey doesn't mean  Arya should be sacrificed. 

Sansa didn't take Joffrey's side. In fact, she refused to take a side .

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

How about....Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and this time has to sacrifice himself to save the world. Daenerys and the baby live, she takes the throne. Bittersweet. He's gone in some kind of blaze of light so no need for the 7 Kingdoms to really wrap their brains around the incest overmuch. Sansa gets Winterfell. Arya goes off adventuring with Brienne. Bran stays weird at Winterfell. Cersei and Jaime die. Tyrion lives and is the Hand. Most everyone else dies. 

 

 

ETA-I actually hate the whole Dany has a baby in six episodes idea/storyline but I do agree the anvils are impossible to ignore, so I've caved to it. But I don't like it.

I'm actually starting to believe Daenerys and Jon are the parents of TPTWP hence why people think it's Jon or Daenerys. Visions shows them both because they're the parents of the Chosen One.

 

Except Daeneys sacrifices herself and her unborn child. The HOTU shows her never touching the throne and going North where she goes off to see Drogo and Rhaego as symbolism for death. The Chosen One(Dany and Jon's baby) is really a sacrifice to win the War of the Dawn.

So Daenerys and the baby die and Jon decides to end the series as a Strider-like figure.

 

No one's getting that damn throne. At best, there'll be a Baratheon-Queen Sansa scenario (Arya hasn't been set up to be a leader of men).

[screamin]

I tend to agree with the side that thinks Jon won't survive the story. He's already died once - IMO, that implies that, like Beric, he's already living on borrowed time, given a second chance only to fulfil an ultimate destined purpose (defeating the NK and maybe fathering a child) before dying, but helping the world survive through his death - hence "bittersweet."

[Eyes High]

19 hours ago, WindyNights said:

(Arya hasn't been set up to be a leader of men).

Arya named her direwolf after a queen. She's also shown a lot of leadership potential in the books, even if the show has downplayed that aspect of her character arc.

 

58 minutes ago, screamin said:

I tend to agree with the side that thinks Jon won't survive the story. He's already died once - IMO, that implies that, like Beric, he's already living on borrowed time, given a second chance only to fulfil an ultimate destined purpose (defeating the NK and maybe fathering a child) before dying, but helping the world survive through his death - hence "bittersweet."

Fair enough, but if he was brought back just to die again, why does his status as the legit Targaryen heir matter?

Edited October 6, 2017 by Eyes High

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Arya named her direwolf after a queen. She's also shown a lot of leadership potential in the books, even if the show has downplayed that aspect of her character arc.

 

Fair enough, but if he was brought back just to die again, why does his status as the legit Targaryen heir matter?

It is indisputable that he WAS brought back to die again eventually, because his resurrection did not make him immortal. IMO,  if he dies as soon as he fathers a child and defeats the NK, he'd have fulfilled his narrative purpose. The fact that he is supposedly the legitimate king (though only if you believe Aerys' designation of Viserys as crown prince after the death of Rhaegar is invalid, which is VERY open to argument) could be simply be a red herring, a plot complication to temporarily drive Dany and Jon apart - a paranoid Dany suspecting Jon of putting his friend Sam up to presenting "evidence" that he is the real king to slyly pressure her to abdicate in his favor. Or a means to bring them closer together when he nobly renounces his claim in her favor, as well as making him seem a worthier husband for her by removing the taint of bastardy from him. One thing I CAN'T believe is that Jon would actually want the throne - much less take it from her - as long as she lives, so while she is alive and gestating it doesn't really matter which one of them has the better claim...he'll let her rule anyway. And I think it would make an unsatisfying ending for Jon to sacrifice her and his unborn child to save the world - and then recover enough AFTER such a soul-searing tragedy to humdrumly sit the Iron Throne, rule, and emotionally recover enough to sire other heirs (on who? Sansa? Arya?). And I really don't think the plot is going to stop short for 9 months to let Dany bring an adorable child to term for Jon to sadly raise after losing her...the Wall has fallen, things will happen fast. So since the plot DOES seem to heavily hint at a child, I think pregnant Dany's gonna be the survivor.

Edited October 7, 2017 by screamin

[screamin]

Also it occurs to me that we know - and both Jon and Dany have it easily within their reach ALSO to know, since the show has made it explicit - that the prophecy qualifies EITHER Jon or Dany to be the Prince That was Promised, since we've been told that the word "prince" in Valyrian is gender neutral. Both have the required royal bloodline. (In fact, if you subscribe to the theory that Jon IS legitimately king, that makes Dany MORE likely to be the Prince(ss) That was Promised, since she was never really queen...and Maggie the prophetess told us the king is NOT the prince :)

So if Jon and pregnant Dany are confronted with the choice that ONE of them must sacrifice the other to save the world - Jon would never in a million years choose to be the one to sacrifice Dany and their child if there were ANY alternative. Dany, OTOH, pregnant with their miracle baby she'd longed for and never thought she could have?  She WOULD sacrifice Jon to assure there would BE a world for their child to grow up in. And she would be right to do so, and it would be in character for her to do so. And it would ALSO be in character for Jon to willingly submit to be the sacrifice, given the alternative.

So I'm even more convinced now that Dany is the more likely survivor at the end.

[GraceK]

23 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa didn't take Joffrey's side. In fact, she refused to take a side .

I disagree. I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this, contrary to what it seems like, I don't hate Sansa. I love her actually...doesn't mean I don't see her for the spoiled, rotten little girl she was. She absolutely chose a side. When she stood there and refused to back up her sister and tell the truth, she chose a side. When Cersei ordered her wolf to be killed, and she STILL didn't speak up, she chose a side. She wanted to marry Joffrey up until the very last second until he beheaded Ned. In the books she was worse, being directly responsible for her father getting arrested because she went to Cersei. It took her father being murdered before she saw the Lannisters for what they were, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

 

it doesn't mean I don't sympathize with her, or I don't love how she has grown and changed. For any bad choice she has made, she has suffered a thousand fold.

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Arya named her direwolf after a queen. She's also shown a lot of leadership potential in the books, even if the show has downplayed that aspect of her character arc.

 

Fair enough, but if he was brought back just to die again, why does his status as the legit Targaryen heir matter?

Nymeria was an adventuring warrior princess. Adventuring, warrior and princess. That doesn't mean that Arya is being prepped to lead. 

The show if anything is showing that Arya would make for a poor leader. A tyrannical one. She wants to cut off heads just for vassals badmouthing Jon.

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

I disagree. I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this, contrary to what it seems like, I don't hate Sansa. I love her actually...doesn't mean I don't see her for the spoiled, rotten little girl she was. She absolutely chose a side. When she stood there and refused to back up her sister and tell the truth, she chose a side. When Cersei ordered her wolf to be killed, and she STILL didn't speak up, she chose a side. She wanted to marry Joffrey up until the very last second until he beheaded Ned. In the books she was worse, being directly responsible for her father getting arrested because she went to Cersei. It took her father being murdered before she saw the Lannisters for what they were, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

 

it doesn't mean I don't sympathize with her, or I don't love how she has grown and changed. For any bad choice she has made, she has suffered a thousand fold.

She didn't choose a side. She chose no side because she pretended she couldn't remember rather than validate Arya or Joffrey's story and the show points out why Sansa couldn't actually choose a side between the two. She was hamstrung according to Ned.

[MisterBluxom]

I just binge watched most of Season 7 and I'm really excited about what will happen to Circe. I would hope that she would suffer an end that would be appropriate for all the harm she has done and all the pain she has caused.

I guess her end will be about what  happens to her (as yet) unborn child. Circe concocted the most brutal and most evil end for Ellaria Sand and her daughter. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see those two escape death somehow and come back to wreak vengence on Circe?

I would guess that Circe's fate will be similar to the fate she had planned for Ellaria Sand. Maybe she will have to watch her child die slowly and in agony over a long period of time? Then she would die after the child is dead.

I suppose that wouldn't be very karmic. But I don't know just how justified Ellaria was in poisoning Circe's daughter. It sure didn't seem reasonable or fair for that daughter to die. So maybe it wouldn't be right to force Circe to watch her daughter die. But what would hurt Circe the most?

Seems like we keep hearing that Circe's one redeemable quality is that she loves her family. So, if she was forced to watch the destruction of her remaining family, that might be the one thing that would be most painful to her. But her remaining family is nowhere near as evil as she is.

I suppose I should read this thread. It will be interesting to see if anyone has speculated on just how Circe will meet her end and how much she will suffer before she dies and how long it might take.

I wonder if the last plot twist with John Snow and Danny might be involved. If Circe is forced to realize that her family's name will be stricken from all the history books and no one will ever remember them, that would be awful painful to her. Also, if Danny and her offspring are celebrated as the greatest ever rulers of the Seven Kingdoms while Circe's family just fades away, that would be an extremely painful thing for her to suffer. It will probably be very interesting and entertaining - whatever happens.

So, I'm thinking Circe may be forced to spend the rest of her life in prison or somewhere equally unpleasant and she will be forced to be witness to the fabulous rise of Danny and her Targarian children be loved by everyone and celebrate as the greatest ever rulers of the Seventh Kingdom, that would be tremendously painful to Circe. Maybe they could show her slowly go mad from seeing that and eventually killing herself as a result of her insanity - having been driven insane by seeing how her family has been forgotten while the Targarians are celebrated. I'm thinking the final scene might be when people learn the "Mad King" was actually poisoned by Circe's father or mother and it was their fault he was driven mad. In that way, things will have come full circle and Circe will have lost the Game of Thrones in the most painful way possible.

Edited October 8, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MrsR]

I have a few  of what I call "indisputables". Of course everyone will try to dispute them but here goes. All outcomes depend on these observations.

Winterfell above ground will fall. But there are the tombs. The producers didn't make them cavernous for nothing.  Many people will survive underground. Sansa will organize that and she will live. So will Bran. Neither of them will leave Winterfell.

Arya is at risk because she will insist on fighting.

Beric Dondarrion hasn't survived for no reason. He will give his last life to save someone VERY important. That important person may be saved in order to save someone else important and/or is someone completely needed to perform a certain task. It will happen in the North. He's not making it to Kings Landing.

Jon and Dany's child will survive. Their lineage and stories lead to that child. Whether Jon or Dany or both survive is questionable but because Dany's child must survive, odds have it that she at least will survive. Their outcomes are not tied to the outcome of Winterfell. 

Cersie will never leave the Red Keep. Since the first few episodes she has NEVER left King's Landing. She will die there. 

The Mountain will always be with Cersie, therefore the Hound will make it to Kings Landing. Arya's story is tied to the Hound so she will make it to Kings Landing. Since they are not going to be going alone, a great many characters will make it to Kings Landing. Like Jaime. His story ends in Kings Landing.

The end entirely hinges on what finally happens at Kings Landing.

[WindyNights]

21 hours ago, MrsR said:

I have a few  of what I call "indisputables". Of course everyone will try to dispute them but here goes. All outcomes depend on these observations.

Winterfell above ground will fall. But there are the tombs. The producers didn't make them cavernous for nothing.  Many people will survive underground. Sansa will organize that and she will live. So will Bran. Neither of them will leave Winterfell.

Arya is at risk because she will insist on fighting.

Beric Dondarrion hasn't survived for no reason. He will give his last life to save someone VERY important. That important person may be saved in order to save someone else important and/or is someone completely needed to perform a certain task. It will happen in the North. He's not making it to Kings Landing.

Jon and Dany's child will survive. Their lineage and stories lead to that child. Whether Jon or Dany or both survive is questionable but because Dany's child must survive, odds have it that she at least will survive. Their outcomes are not tied to the outcome of Winterfell. 

Cersie will never leave the Red Keep. Since the first few episodes she has NEVER left King's Landing. She will die there. 

The Mountain will always be with Cersie, therefore the Hound will make it to Kings Landing. Arya's story is tied to the Hound so she will make it to Kings Landing. Since they are not going to be going alone, a great many characters will make it to Kings Landing. Like Jaime. His story ends in Kings Landing.

The end entirely hinges on what finally happens at Kings Landing.

Daenerys surviving means she gets the throne. 

She's never getting the throne: 

 

 

She walks into a snow and ash-filled throne room. Right as she's about to touch the throne, she turns away to go North. This has already happened in season 7.

It's at the Wall where she meets Drogo and Rhaego who are already dead. That's when she enters the Nightlands. 

 

This is is a prophecy of Daenerys' death: 

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he(Drogo) will return, and not before."

 

[MadMouse]

So her not touching the throne and walking away means she won't sit the throne, but her walking away from Drogo and Rhaego means she will stay with them? Can't have it both ways.

[MrsR]

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

She's never getting the throne: 

Well, you're right, she won't get the throne but it's because her child would outrank her. Jon is the real heir, his child is the next in line and Dany will be in line after her child. She could be Queen Regent.

 

The only way she gets the throne is if both of them die.

 

I always took the House of the Undying to be hogwash the priest threw at her to confuse her so he could imprison her.

 

And I always took  Mirri Maz Durr's prophecy as a fancy way of say, "When pigs fly."

Edited October 10, 2017 by MrsR

[Eyes High]

The show has already established (twice) that there's no afterlife, so Dany's never getting reunited with Drogo and Rhaego. MMD's prophecy is best interpreted as "Fuck you, that's when."

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The show has already established (twice) that there's no afterlife, so Dany's never getting reunited with Drogo and Rhaego. MMD's prophecy is best interpreted as "Fuck you, that's when."

I don't know that we can take the lack of word from Beric and Jon that there is no afterlife. One could simply fanwank that the gods knew very well through their goddish powers that those two were to be recalled, so they left them in the waiting room instead of sending them to the afterlife only to jerk them out again.

[Eyes High]

On 10/9/2017 at 3:37 PM, WindyNights said:

She walks into a snow and ash-filled throne room. Right as she's about to touch the throne, she turns away to go North. This has already happened in season 7.

It's at the Wall where she meets Drogo and Rhaego who are already dead. That's when she enters the Nightlands. 

In light of Season 7, this vision could equally foreshadow her S7 romance with Jon and strongly foreshadowed pregnancy: she turns away from the throne (renouncing the pursuit of power for its own sake) to fight for the North (depicted in the vision as going beyond the Wall) and finds love and a child (represented by Drogo and Rhaego as stand-ins for Jon and her child(ren) by him). Jon only fell for her when she sacrificed one of her dragons to save his life and pledged her support to his cause.

With that said, as @MadMouse pointed out, Dany walks away from Drogo and Rhaego as well. So why does walking away from the throne "count" and walking away from Drogo and Rhaego doesn't?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In light of Season 7, this vision could equally foreshadow her S7 romance with Jon and strongly foreshadowed pregnancy: she turns away from the throne (renouncing the pursuit of power for its own sake) to fight for the North (depicted in the vision as going beyond the Wall) and finds love and a child (represented by Drogo and Rhaego as stand-ins for Jon and her child(ren) by him). Jon only fell for her when she sacrificed one of her dragons to save his life and pledged her support to his cause.

With that said, as @MadMouse pointed out, Dany walks away from Drogo and Rhaego as well. So why does walking away from the throne "count" and walking away from Drogo and Rhaego doesn't?

 

See but I'm also taking this into account and adding in the book of the HOTU where we see 3 visions of Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar as symbolism for taking their roles unto herself. Viserys as the Beggar King, Rhaego as the Stallion that Mounts the World and Rhaegar as the Sacrificial Messiah. 

Her walking away from Drogo and Rhaego, I took to mean that she wasn't ready to join them yet but she will. 

But anyways, I think the point of Dany's story here is that she can win and take the throne but she's going to sacrifice it (including her chance at re-establishing House Targaryen, her baby, her dragons and her life) and everything else to save humanity 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

 

See but I'm also taking this into account and adding in the book of the HOTU where we see 3 visions of Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar as symbolism for taking their roles unto herself. Viserys as the Beggar King, Rhaego as the Stallion that Mounts the World and Rhaegar as the Sacrificial Messiah. 

Her walking away from Drogo and Rhaego, I took to mean that she wasn't ready to join them yet but she will. 

Rhaegar didn’t think he was the sacrificial messiah.  He eventually concluded that his son was.  And more to the point, Azor Ahai didn’t sacrifice himself; he lived, as far as we know.

Obviously she’ll join them in the end.  Everyone dies eventually.

There’s also the question of what sort of knowledge the writers had while writing Season 2, since they got the bulk of the information after writing Season 3.

[WindyNights]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Rhaegar didn’t think he was the sacrificial messiah.  He eventually concluded that his son was.  And more to the point, Azor Ahai didn’t sacrifice himself; he lived, as far as we know.

Obviously she’ll join them in the end.  Everyone dies eventually.

There’s also the question of what sort of knowledge the writers had while writing Season 2, since they got the bulk of the information after writing Season 3.

Rhaegar believed himself to be the Messiah at one point. We don't know what happened to AA but we're talking about AA reborn not AA.

And that's sort of what the messianic archetype is. A figure that sacrifices himself/herself to save the world. Or rather it's what the Christian Messiah is which is what AA is sort of equated to. 

I think Daenerys endgame is one of those things that they would know very early on even from before season 1.

But besides that.....I don't think GRRM is trying to return to the status quo where a Targaryen rules over Westeros once again. I don't think we're witnessing the rebirth of House Targaryen but the sacrifice of House Targaryen to save the world. I mean even House Plantagenet ended after 359 years on the throne. It's House Stark that'll be the ones to rebuild the new world.

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Rhaegar believed himself to be the Messiah at one point. We don't know what happened to AA but we're talking about AA reborn not AA.

And that's sort of what the messianic archetype is. A figure that sacrifices himself/herself to save the world. Or rather it's what the Christian Messiah is which is what AA is sort of equated to. 

Rhaegar thought he was Azor Ahai at one point.

I know that there are some similarities between the Christ figure and Azor Ahai in terms of how followers speak of them, but neither Azor Ahai or Azor Ahai reborn have ever been referred to as sacrificial figures.  Azor Ahai sacrificed other people, not himself.

Quote

I think Daenerys endgame is one of those things that they would know very early on even from before season 1.

I believe they'd said in the past that the main thing they knew was who ended up on the throne.

Edited October 11, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There’s also the question of what sort of knowledge the writers had while writing Season 2, since they got the bulk of the information after writing Season 3.

Technically it was while they were writing Season 3. There's an ongoing debate over how much (or how little) D&D knew before that 2013 info dump.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

To quote Jon Snow's response to Dany's declaration that she will never have children because the witch who murdered her husband told her so, "has it occurred to you that she might not be a reliable source of information?"

[screamin]

55 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Rhaegar thought he was Azor Ahai at one point.

I know that there are some similarities between the Christ figure and Azor Ahai in terms of how followers speak of them, but neither Azor Ahai or Azor Ahai reborn have ever been referred to as sacrificial figures.  Azor Ahai sacrificed other people, not himself.

 

IA. The Christlike figure in the legend would be Nissa Nissa, not Azor Ahai, since it's clearly implied in the story that she knew what Azor Ahai was going to do and offered herself willingly to the sacrifice., as God the Son offered himself to God the Father's decree.

So if BOTH the archetypal figures are required, and BOTH Jon and Dany are from the critical bloodline of the PTwP, and EITHER of them could potentially be The Prince(ss) that was Promised - then they have a choice as to who will be sacrificer and who the sacrificed. And I'd say that if Dany is pregnant at the time they make that choice - then Jon as the willing sacrifice is the foregone conclusion, IMO.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Obviously she’ll join them in the end.  Everyone dies eventually.

Exactly the reason that I never take any of the prophecies seriously. When Melisandre who hasn't gotten a prophecy right so far announced that Varys "would die in this strange land," all I could think was, "he lives in Westeros, of course he is going to die there tomorrow or 30 years from now."

[MadMouse]

Couple points

 

As Eyes High mentioned, Dany at the Wall and Drogo and Rhaego could just be a replacement, for the blue winter rose and her final marriage which is Jon. But they couldn't put Kit Harrington and boatsex baby there because it would spoil too much.

Nissa Nissa is never mentioned once in the prophecy, just the legend. And every theory that mentions Dany as her what about the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer? Interesting that people just like to pick and choose which parts of legends and prophecy to agree with or ignore to fit a theory.

Who says AA or Rhllor are the good guys? Melisandre, the zealot who wants to burn people constantly? Isn't it interesting that the only sacrifice we've seen on the show that involves stabbing someone in the heart involves the creation of the White Walkers?

[screamin]

15 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Couple points

 

As Eyes High mentioned, Dany at the Wall and Drogo and Rhaego could just be a replacement, for the blue winter rose and her final marriage which is Jon. But they couldn't put Kit Harrington and boatsex baby there because it would spoil too much.

Nissa Nissa is never mentioned once in the prophecy, just the legend. And every theory that mentions Dany as her what about the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer? Interesting that people just like to pick and choose which parts of legends and prophecy to agree with or ignore to fit a theory.

Who says AA or Rhllor are the good guys? Melisandre, the zealot who wants to burn people constantly? Isn't it interesting that the only sacrifice we've seen on the show that involves stabbing someone in the heart involves the creation of the White Walkers?

Is there an 'official' and reliable text of prophecy available that is physically separate from unreliable 'legend', then? Please clarify.

[MadMouse]

I never said either were reliable because all the religions and prophecy are most likely bullshit. The prophecy of Azor Ahai return never mentions Nissa Nissa. Only the legend about the original AA does she appear. So all theories crafted about Dany being Nissa Nissa aren't based on the prophecy alone but the legend too. Which would be fine if they included the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer but they never do. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by MadMouse

[WindyNights]

18 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Couple points

 

As Eyes High mentioned, Dany at the Wall and Drogo and Rhaego could just be a replacement, for the blue winter rose and her final marriage which is Jon. But they couldn't put Kit Harrington and boatsex baby there because it would spoil too much.

Nissa Nissa is never mentioned once in the prophecy, just the legend. And every theory that mentions Dany as her what about the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer? Interesting that people just like to pick and choose which parts of legends and prophecy to agree with or ignore to fit a theory.

Who says AA or Rhllor are the good guys? Melisandre, the zealot who wants to burn people constantly? Isn't it interesting that the only sacrifice we've seen on the show that involves stabbing someone in the heart involves the creation of the White Walkers?

Melisandre isn't just a religious zealot that wants to burn people constantly. There's a reason that GRRM called her the most misunderstood character. She's actually trying to save the world.

And its not about good or bad, it's about AAR's role. His role is to fight back the darkness.

I've become skeptical on there being a new Nissa Nissa but Melisandre obviously thinks there is a Nissa Nissa. It's why she's tried to push Stannis to burn Edric/Gendry and later Shireen.

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

I never said either were reliable because all the religions and prophecy are most likely bullshit. The prophecy of Azor Ahai return never mentions Nissa Nissa. Only the legend about the original AA does she appear. So all theories crafted about Dany being Nissa Nissa aren't based on the prophecy alone but the legend too. Which would be fine if they included the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer but they never do. 

No, this is absurd. The prophecies in this story aren't bullshit. 

Plenty of people predicted Sansa taking down LF at Winterfell because of a prophecy or Daenerys hooking up with Jon Snow or LS being resurrected.

[WindyNights]

19 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Exactly the reason that I never take any of the prophecies seriously. When Melisandre who hasn't gotten a prophecy right so far announced that Varys "would die in this strange land," all I could think was, "he lives in Westeros, of course he is going to die there tomorrow or 30 years from now."

She kinda has: 

Stannis: Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing. Had I met my brother there, it might have been me who died in place of him."

19 hours ago, screamin said:

IA. The Christlike figure in the legend would be Nissa Nissa, not Azor Ahai, since it's clearly implied in the story that she knew what Azor Ahai was going to do and offered herself willingly to the sacrifice., as God the Son offered himself to God the Father's decree.

So if BOTH the archetypal figures are required, and BOTH Jon and Dany are from the critical bloodline of the PTwP, and EITHER of them could potentially be The Prince(ss) that was Promised - then they have a choice as to who will be sacrificer and who the sacrificed. And I'd say that if Dany is pregnant at the time they make that choice - then Jon as the willing sacrifice is the foregone conclusion, IMO.

You could put in a case that Bran is the God to Dany and Jon's Jesus.

I think the most likely conclusion is that Daenerys and Jon sacrifice themselves (along with their baby) and their future but there's also a good chance that it's just Daenerys and the baby that are sacrificed. 

I think something people in this thread have trouble with is that GRRM wants to frustrate your genre expectations: 

[

]I have a lot of fun in frustrating genre expectations, using a bit of this or a bit of that, and doing something that hasn't been done before.[

]

In fact, that's why he killed Robb Stark in the first place because he thought people would expect him to exact revenge for his father.

So what's the next expectation? That Daenerys wins the throne? That Jon-Daenerys make a baby that sits the throne? That Jon survives and sits the throne himself? I don't think GRRM is blind to what he sees his fan's expectations. In fact, Aegon is a big middle finger to people who think Jon and Dany will sit on the Iron Throne.

Like he could plausibly get there but does GRRM really want to recreate Return of the King?

That's my view on it.

[MadMouse]

17 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Melisandre isn't just a religious zealot that wants to burn people constantly. There's a reason that GRRM called her the most misunderstood character. She's actually trying to save the world.

And its not about good or bad, it's about AAR's role. His role is to fight back the darkness.

I've become skeptical on there being a new Nissa Nissa but Melisandre obviously thinks there is a Nissa Nissa. It's why she's tried to push Stannis to burn Edric/Gendry and later Shireen.

No, this is absurd. The prophecies in this story aren't bullshit. 

Plenty of people predicted Sansa taking down LF at Winterfell because of a prophecy or Daenerys hooking up with Jon Snow or LS being resurrected.

Wanting to save the world doesn't exclude you from being a zealot who sees what she wants to and being wrong.

And AAR once again being a savior or pushing back the darkness is coming from a zealot/true believer of that religion. Because if you want to start comparing our religions then Lightbringer is Lucifer. 

Religious prophecies because there are no gods in this world. Only things people don't understand.

[WindyNights]

1 minute ago, MadMouse said:

Wanting to save the world doesn't exclude you from being a zealot who sees what she wants to and being wrong.

And AAR once again being a savior or pushing back the darkness is coming from a zealot/true believer of that religion. Because if you want to start comparing our religions then Lightbringer is Lucifer. 

Religious prophecies because there are no gods in this world. Only things people don't understand.

Melisandre is wrong about who AAR is but not about AAR's function. I mean the books and show are pointing towards Jon and Daenerys being AAR and unless there's a last minute swerve, it seems like that's their role. Fight back the darkness and bring the dawn.

Like there are some cool theories like the Bloodstone Emperor being AA but that doesn't really affect the role of AAR.

 

There are gods in this world. 

 

The COTF even refer to a godhood that greenseers join when they die. 

 

And Euron and Bran are in the process of trying to become gods.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.

Hell, Show Bran is already a god or at least a demi-god. 

 

Like in GRRM's short stories, there are gods and they are a collective conscious. 

[screamin]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Stannis: Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing. Had I met my brother there, it might have been me who died in place of him."

You could put in a case that Bran is the God to Dany and Jon's Jesus.

I think the most likely conclusion is that Daenerys and Jon sacrifice themselves (along with their baby) and their future but there's also a good chance that it's just Daenerys and the baby that are sacrificed. 

I think something people in this thread have trouble with is that GRRM wants to frustrate your genre expectations: 

 

IMO, having the hero use his tragically dead girlfriend to motivate his character arc and precipitate his Saving the Day IS the genre expectation and cliche; see the Women in Refrigerators trope. IMO, it would subvert the tired old trope to have the woman - the PREGNANT woman, no less - be the one to be the sacrificer AND the hero that defeats the villain in the last act and have Jon be the tragic sacrifice that motivates and enables her to do the saving.

7 hours ago, MadMouse said:

I never said either were reliable because all the religions and prophecy are most likely bullshit. The prophecy of Azor Ahai return never mentions Nissa Nissa. Only the legend about the original AA does she appear. So all theories crafted about Dany being Nissa Nissa aren't based on the prophecy alone but the legend too. Which would be fine if they included the first two attempts at tempering Lightbringer but they never do. 

Eh, I don't think that the fact that Melisandre didn't mention Azor Ahai having to sacrifice his wife (when, IIRC, the times that she mentioned Azor Ahai was to praise and flatter Stannis before others, not tell him he had to do something unforgivably dreadful) means that what Melisandre is saying is ALL the important authoritative info about Azor Ahai, and the legend of Sallador Saan's is unscientific drivel in contrast. It could simply be that Melisandre omitted that part of the story because it didn't suit the narrative she was trying to push on her audience.

Edited October 12, 2017 by screamin

[domina89]

On 10/10/2017 at 7:38 PM, WindyNights said:

But besides that.....I don't think GRRM is trying to return to the status quo where a Targaryen rules over Westeros once again. I don't think we're witnessing the rebirth of House Targaryen but the sacrifice of House Targaryen to save the world. I mean even House Plantagenet ended after 359 years on the throne. It's House Stark that'll be the ones to rebuild the new world.

GRRM LOVES the Targs.  I would be very shocked if he wipes them out completely.  And how would House Stark rebuild the new world?  Bran is the only one left to carry the Stark name and, for all we know, he could be incapable of having children, not to mention the fact that he is not interested in love or marriage or anything outside of the matrix (poor Meera).  Neither Arya nor Sansa seem interested in marriage or children at this point, either.  I agree with you that GRRM may not return Westeros to the status quo, but I also think it is established pretty well in both the show and the books that Jon and Dany are the ones to lead the way for a new system.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, domina89 said:

GRRM LOVES the Targs.  I would be very shocked if he wipes them out completely.  

Agreed, and his Targ obsession has shown no sign of waning. The most recent Westeros-related work published was yet another historical Targ tale (Sons of the Dragon). When it comes to the Targs, we know multiple historical Targs' hair colour, eye colour, fashion preferences, romantic entanglements, and manner of death, but we don't even know what any of the historical Starks other than Rickard looked like, not even Ned's mother. While there's always a chance that GRRM may end ASOIAF by obliterating the Targs and having the Starks take over, judging from GRRM's track record, it's not bloody likely.

Without getting too armchair psychologist, someone on the ASOIAF subreddit pointed out that although GRRM's family was poor growing up, they hadn't always been poor:

Quote

 

From the age of four I lived down on First Street, in the public-housing projects, facing the waters of Kill Van Kull, with Staten Island on the other side.

My father was a Martin, but he was of Italian and German descent. My mother was a Brady – Irish. I heard a lot from my mother about the heritage of the Bradys, who had been a pretty important family at certain points in Bayonne history. I knew at a very early age that we were poor. But I also knew that my family hadn't always been poor. To get to my school, I had to walk past the house where my mother had been born, this house that had been our house once. I've looked back on that, of course, and in some of my stories there's this sense of a lost golden age, where there were wonders and marvels undreamed of. Somehow what my mother told me set all that stuff into my imagination.

 

I think that GRRM's situation mirroring Dany's in a sense may very well play a role in whether or not we see a Targ restoration. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, domina89 said:

And how would House Stark rebuild the new world?  Bran is the only one left to carry the Stark name and, for all we know, he could be incapable of having children, not to mention the fact that he is not interested in love or marriage or anything outside of the matrix (poor Meera).  

I agree with your overall point that GRRM clearly finds the Targaryens more interesting than any other Westerosi house (the relatively short timeframe of 300 years of Targaryen rule probably helps there too, compared to, say, 8000 years of Stark rule in Winterfell), on this minor point, girls can pass on the family name in Westeros.  If Sansa's status as the Lady of Winterfell continues at the end of the series, or if she dies and Arya takes that job, any children of theirs would be Starks.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I agree with your overall point that GRRM clearly finds the Targaryens more interesting than any other Westerosi house (the relatively short timeframe of 300 years of Targaryen rule probably helps there too, compared to, say, 8000 years of Stark rule in Winterfell), on this minor point, girls can pass on the family name in Westeros.  If Sansa's status as the Lady of Winterfell continues at the end of the series, or if she dies and Arya takes that job, any children of theirs would be Starks.

I thought that would only be the case if they married down.

[MadMouse]

GRRM loves the Targaryens, it seems obvious that he'd much rather be writing about the Daemon the Rogue Prince or Aegon the Unworthy then the main series.

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I thought that would only be the case if they married down.

The custom seems to be that ruling ladies can pass on their names, though we know very little about any of the marriages involved with people like Lady Waynwood or Lady Oakheart.  If nothing else, given GRRM's emphasis on the flexible/ambiguous nature of much of the law, I would say that any marriage either sister arranged for themselves while a ruling lady would be contingent on the continuance of their family name.  They have the power to have things their way.

[WindyNights]

On 10/12/2017 at 9:58 AM, domina89 said:

GRRM LOVES the Targs.  I would be very shocked if he wipes them out completely.  And how would House Stark rebuild the new world?  Bran is the only one left to carry the Stark name and, for all we know, he could be incapable of having children, not to mention the fact that he is not interested in love or marriage or anything outside of the matrix (poor Meera).  Neither Arya nor Sansa seem interested in marriage or children at this point, either.  I agree with you that GRRM may not return Westeros to the status quo, but I also think it is established pretty well in both the show and the books that Jon and Dany are the ones to lead the way for a new system.

On that basis, none of the Starks are actually Starks  because they're all descended from Bael the Bard and a Stark daughter and none of the Lannisters are Lannisters because they're all descended from Lydden and Lannister daughter. : p

Anyways, Sansa can pass on the Stark name to her children.

Daenerys is not going to be the one to rebuild society. She's the one to destroy the old world not make a new one. She's going to break the wheel but she's not meant to create things.

Daenerys: "Dragons plant no trees." 

Jon's fate is more ambiguous to me. I could definitely need a scenario where Jon leaves Westeros for decades and comes back with Bran to visit old man Bran who is now dying and yet Jon is still young because of the magic animating him. And they have one last convo before Bran passes on. Jon would be a sort of reverse-Aragorn.

On 10/11/2017 at 5:39 PM, screamin said:

IMO, having the hero use his tragically dead girlfriend to motivate his character arc and precipitate his Saving the Day IS the genre expectation and cliche; see the Women in Refrigerators trope. IMO, it would subvert the tired old trope to have the woman - the PREGNANT woman, no less - be the one to be the sacrificer AND the hero that defeats the villain in the last act and have Jon be the tragic sacrifice that motivates and enables her to do the saving.

Neither of them have to motivate the other by dying. think it's a cheap way to use death. 

When I say Daenerys sacrifices herself I also mean she's the one to beat the Others. Or if they both do then they both die and beat the Others.

On 10/12/2017 at 0:39 PM, MadMouse said:

GRRM loves the Targaryens, it seems obvious that he'd much rather be writing about the Daemon the Rogue Prince or Aegon the Unworthy then the main series.

That's because he's tired of the main series not because of Targaryen-favoritism. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Daenerys is not going to be the one to rebuild society. She's the one to destroy the old world not make a new one. She's going to break the wheel but she's not meant to create things.

Daenerys: "Dragons plant no trees." 

Jon's fate is more ambiguous to me. I could definitely need a scenario where Jon leaves Westeros for decades and comes back with Bran to visit old man Bran who is now dying and yet Jon is still young because of the magic animating him.

If GRRM goes full Targ restoration (Jon + Dany + offspring) I kind of like the idea of a flashforward scene at the end where Jon and Dany visit the Stark in Winterfell--whoever that ends up being--with their child(ren), bringing things full circle from the beginning. It would be cheesy, absolutely, but eh. I would appreciate some in-universe canon reassurance that things won't immediately go to shit after the end of the war and what I assume will be Jon and Dany's ascension to the throne.

Quote

That's because he's tired of the main series not because of Targaryen-favoritism. 

If so, he'd be writing about the Starks or other non-Targs, not just the Targs. He has written hundreds of thousands of words about the Targs' history over the past few years and published Targ-centric works, while the planned She-Wolves of Winterfell D&E tale languishes unwritten.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Eyes High

[screamin]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Neither of them have to motivate the other by dying. think it's a cheap way to use death. 

When I say Daenerys sacrifices herself I also mean she's the one to beat the Others. Or if they both do then they both die and beat the Others.

 

The story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa seems to imply that one of them must be sacrificed by the other in order to make a weapon capable of defeating the Big Bad. The prophecy may be about an actual weapon like Lightbringer that must be made by an actual sacrifice, or the story may be symbolic of a future battle event where Jon and Dany must decide which of them must make a fatal last stand against the enemy to buy time to enable the other to kill the Night King.

Whether the prophecy is literal or figurative is, IMO, besides the point. As "Women in Refrigerators" points out, it's a cliche for a man to be enabled by the tragic death of his girlfriend to become the heartbroken ruthless badass necessary to defeat the Big Bad. To have a woman be empowered by her lover's willing sacrifice to slay the Big Bad - not out of manly vengeful emo fury and angst, but out of grim determination to save the world for her unborn child no matter what? Whatever else that is, it's not a cliche. 

It also goes with what I think would be the inevitable result of the choice Dany and Jon WOULD make if they were told that one of them would have to be the Prince(ss) that was Promised and slay the Night King, and the other would have to die to enable that. If Dany were pregnant, Jon would choose her to be the slayer and himself the sacrifice, and Dany if pregnant would go along with it. I cannot imagine a scenario that would make Jon and pregnant Dany decide the other way.

Edited October 14, 2017 by screamin

[MadMouse]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

That's because he's tired of the main series not because of Targaryen-favoritism. 

Oh please, The Rogue Prince, The Princess and the Queen, Dunk and Egg and the just released Sons of the Dragon. That's not even counting the upcoming Fire and Blood detailing the whole of reign of the Dragons. How many of those main character are a Stark? How bout a Lannister? A Tully? Nope just Targaryens.

Edited October 14, 2017 by MadMouse

[domina89]

On 10/13/2017 at 7:37 PM, WindyNights said:

On that basis, none of the Starks are actually Starks  because they're all descended from Bael the Bard and a Stark daughter and none of the Lannisters are Lannisters because they're all descended from Lydden and Lannister daughter. : p

My argument isn't so much who will pass on the actual Stark name as much as it is the current set of Starks don't seem to be interested in creating the next generation. Not to mention that there seems to be zero narrative focus on the Stark family's future. With so little time left to finish the series and with GRRM's obvious obsession with the Targs, I'm just being practical.  

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, domina89 said:

My argument isn't so much who will pass on the actual Stark name as much as it is the current set of Starks don't seem to be interested in creating the next generation.

But why would they? Even aside from the fact that there's an existential threat facing them all and winter is on the way, you've got a guy who is likely aware he can't father kids and courtesy of an omniscience download doesn't have much of a sense of anything being important beyond the "great war," a girl who has vehemently rejected the idea of being a lady and everything it entails, and a survivor of two forced marriages who has been raped many, many times. I can't imagine three people less likely to be concerned about the need to make babies. Ensuring the survival of the Stark line is going to be very low on their list of priorities for the foreseeable future.

[WindyNights]

On 10/13/2017 at 7:39 PM, MadMouse said:

Oh please, The Rogue Prince, The Princess and the Queen, Dunk and Egg and the just released Sons of the Dragon. That's not even counting the upcoming Fire and Blood detailing the whole of reign of the Dragons. How many of those main character are a Stark? How bout a Lannister? A Tully? Nope just Targaryens.

The Rogue Prince, the Princess and the Queen and the Sons of the Dragon are all part of the same whole. He wrote them all when he was writing TWOIAF about the Targaryen reign over Westeros. They're parts of Fire and Blood Volume 1.

I think we need to acknowledge that 4 of the 6 main characters on ASOIAF are Starks. I'm counting Jon because his entire character revoclea around being a Stark and ultimately Rhaegar is just a sperm-donor, Ned is still Jon's father.

Edited October 16, 2017 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

On 10/13/2017 at 7:32 PM, screamin said:

The story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa seems to imply that one of them must be sacrificed by the other in order to make a weapon capable of defeating the Big Bad. The prophecy may be about an actual weapon like Lightbringer that must be made by an actual sacrifice, or the story may be symbolic of a future battle event where Jon and Dany must decide which of them must make a fatal last stand against the enemy to buy time to enable the other to kill the Night King.

Whether the prophecy is literal or figurative is, IMO, besides the point. As "Women in Refrigerators" points out, it's a cliche for a man to be enabled by the tragic death of his girlfriend to become the heartbroken ruthless badass necessary to defeat the Big Bad. To have a woman be empowered by her lover's willing sacrifice to slay the Big Bad - not out of manly vengeful emo fury and angst, but out of grim determination to save the world for her unborn child no matter what? Whatever else that is, it's not a cliche. 

It also goes with what I think would be the inevitable result of the choice Dany and Jon WOULD make if they were told that one of them would have to be the Prince(ss) that was Promised and slay the Night King, and the other would have to die to enable that. If Dany were pregnant, Jon would choose her to be the slayer and himself the sacrifice, and Dany if pregnant would go along with it. I cannot imagine a scenario that would make Jon and pregnant Dany decide the other way.

There's an AA reborn but nothing about a Nissa Nissa reborn as of yet.

 

AAR is 3 people filling the same role. The dragon has 3 heads. Bran, Jon and Daenerys.

On 10/13/2017 at 6:22 PM, Eyes High said:

If GRRM goes full Targ restoration (Jon + Dany + offspring) I kind of like the idea of a flashforward scene at the end where Jon and Dany visit the Stark in Winterfell--whoever that ends up being--with their child(ren), bringing things full circle from the beginning. It would be cheesy, absolutely, but eh. I would appreciate some in-universe canon reassurance that things won't immediately go to shit after the end of the war and what I assume will be Jon and Dany's ascension to the throne.

If so, he'd be writing about the Starks or other non-Targs, not just the Targs. He has written hundreds of thousands of words about the Targs' history over the past few years and published Targ-centric works, while the planned She-Wolves of Winterfell D&E tale languishes unwritten.

I think you're expecting a story that this isn't designed to be. 

When GRRM wrote Aegon, he's poking fun at a Targaryen restoration by exposing "The Return of the King" as propaganda. GRRM isn't Tolkien. He's not some pseudo-monarchist that longs a return to the past.