Rhaegar and Lyanna: So Many Questions

[YaddaYadda]

Barristan says that Rhaegar was fond of Elia. And I don't think she was this passive person people make her out to be. If we had met none of her family, I'd be more willing to buy into that, but the Martells are kind of scary. Oberyn is a hot head and Doran has been scheming for near eighteen years to bring down the Lannisters and bring back Targaryen rule, and the Sand Snakes all have their own weapons, Sarella is dressed like a man forging her chain at the Citadel (my favorite Sand Snake by miles), and Arianne schemed to crown Myrcella.

We don't know much about Elia, so it's hard to judge, but I don't think she's meek or would have let someone steam roll her easily. One of the things that always comes to mind when I think about Elia is Ulmer the Outlaw. Ulmer talks about his days in the Kingswood Brotherhood to anyone who will hear him, how he shot an arrow through Gerold Hightower's hand, stole a kiss from a Dornish princess and made off with her gold and jewels. But it's when he's drunk things get more interesting. He only talks about the Dornish princess. So you know, Elia must have made a pretty big impression on him if the only part of the story he cares to repeat is the part that's about her.

And Lyanna, we have one recollection of a conversation between Lyanna and Ned, when he confirms that Robert did father a bastard in the Vale. I thought her reply about love being sweet, but how it can't change a man's nature showed that she was pragmatic, and that she maybe she understood that love wasn't a song. She certainly seemed to know where she stood. I thought she sounded resigned that this was going to be her lot in life. I just don't think she was as impressionable as most seem to think she was, or that she fell for Rhaegar's because he was pretty, that she chose to be with him because of his looks. I think that's selling her short. This person saved a man from a beating and protected him even though she'd just met him, she donned an armor to defend and redeem his honor. For me, it makes her more.

I will go down defending all three of them. 

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Barristan says that Rhaegar was fond of Elia. And I don't think she was this passive person people make her out to be. If we had met none of her family, I'd be more willing to buy into that, but the Martells are kind of scary. Oberyn is a hot head and Doran has been scheming for near eighteen years to bring down the Lannisters and bring back Targaryen rule, and the Sand Snakes all have their own weapons, Sarella is dressed like a man forging her chain at the Citadel (my favorite Sand Snake by miles), and Arianne schemed to crown Myrcella.

We don't know much about Elia, so it's hard to judge, but I don't think she's meek or would have let someone steam roll her easily. One of the things that always comes to mind when I think about Elia is Ulmer the Outlaw. Ulmer talks about his days in the Kingswood Brotherhood to anyone who will hear him, how he shot an arrow through Gerold Hightower's hand, stole a kiss from a Dornish princess and made off with her gold and jewels. But it's when he's drunk things get more interesting. He only talks about the Dornish princess. So you know, Elia must have made a pretty big impression on him if the only part of the story he cares to repeat is the part that's about her.

And Lyanna, we have one recollection of a conversation between Lyanna and Ned, when he confirms that Robert did father a bastard in the Vale. I thought her reply about love being sweet, but how it can't change a man's nature showed that she was pragmatic, and that she maybe she understood that love wasn't a song. She certainly seemed to know where she stood. I thought she sounded resigned that this was going to be her lot in life. I just don't think she was as impressionable as most seem to think she was, or that she fell for Rhaegar's because he was pretty, that she chose to be with him because of his looks. I think that's selling her short. This person saved a man from a beating and protected him even though she'd just met him, she donned an armor to defend and redeem his honor. For me, it makes her more.

I will go down defending all three of them. 

I'll defend Elia, because any woman who tried (however hopelessly) to face down the Mountain in defense of her children deserves it (and also I respect a witty woman, and wish we actually had samples of her jokes to judge the quality of her wit for ourselves). I'll defend Lyanna, because defending Howland Reed was a noble thing that took nerve (especially the part about the Knight of the Laughing Tree). But Rhaegar? Despite all the paeans of praise for his honor and nobility and goodness - what actually disinterested good deeds of significance can we point to? Even his sparing of the KotLT (if it was Lyanna) had an ulterior motive, if he was already falling in love with her and had marked her as a possible future baby mama to the all-important Dragon Heads. What good did he do in his life that can make up for the evil?

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I'll defend Elia, because any woman who tried (however hopelessly) to face down the Mountain in defense of her children deserves it (and also I respect a witty woman, and wish we actually had samples of her jokes to judge the quality of her wit for ourselves). I'll defend Lyanna, because defending Howland Reed was a noble thing that took nerve (especially the part about the Knight of the Laughing Tree). But Rhaegar? Despite all the paeans of praise for his honor and nobility and goodness - what actually disinterested good deeds of significance can we point to? Even his sparing of the KotLT (if it was Lyanna) had an ulterior motive, if he was already falling in love with her and had marked her as a possible future baby mama to the all-important Dragon Heads. What good did he do in his life that can make up for the evil?

This is where I part ways with the fandom at large. 

When Dany has her visions in the House of the Undying and he says there must be one more, she says that his eyes met hers (Dany's eyes) when he said there must be another, the dragon must have three heads and then she goes on to say she was unsure whether he was talking to her or to the woman that was there. For me, the vision is a mixed bag. But this idea of ice and fire and the prince that was promised is planted in her head even though she only mentions it once. 

If that scene that Dany saw between Elia and Rhaegar really did take place in the past (and I do believe it did because Maester Aemon mentions Rhaegar believing that Aegon was tptwp), then this happens after Harrenhal, where he clearly has not grasped the meaning of ice and fire because as far as I can tell, he is someone who puts faith in signs. He saw the bleeding star on the night Aegon was conceived, so that must be it. 

For me though, I find it difficult to believe that everyone has been wrong about this guy's character the whole time. What I know though is that love is a very powerful emotion.

As far as what he did that was good in his life, well the jury is still out on that. Yes, his actions led to war and strife and the deaths of countless innocent people, and yet, even after all that, no one thinks of him badly, except for Robert. Tywin thought he'd make a good king and Barristan feels the same way. Wyman Manderly is nearly insulted on Rhaegar's behalf because of the Frey who is named for him, and Godric Borrell wants to laugh in his face when he tells him his name. And Varys is bringing (f)Aegon in as Rhaegar's son because he understands the weight his name still carries and it implies that there are people in Westeros that have loyalty towards him. What he did to deserve these people's love and loyalty, so much so that they forget that he was one of the catalysts for the war, we do not know because we are not told. 

But you and I will have to keep agreeing to disagreeing, although this is fun conversation. We can still be internet buddies though ;)

Edited August 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Jazzy24]

Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name as he died is still the most romantic thing GRRM has ever wrote in these books. 

[YaddaYadda]

40 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name as he died is still the most romantic thing GRRM has ever wrote in these books. 

And this alone makes me question all the speculation that he looked at her as someone who was just there to birth him this 3rd child, that he looked at her and saw her as nothing more than a womb. When I read that line though, I thought it was just one of the saddest things. For me, it was on par with Catelyn thinking about how much Ned loved her hair right before she was killed. I thought it was this more glimpse into something that was rather intimate.

Edited August 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Hana Chan]

Unfortunately, because we're only seeing their relationship as snippets from the viewpoint of others, it's more than likely that we'll never got a full sense of their relationship, and what lead them to flee to be together and living in secret. But I don't doubt sincere and genuine love between them, both from the way it was written in the books and the glimpse we got of the pairing on the show. Their kiss at the wedding was so tender and loving, especially on Rhaeger's part, that I can't see it otherwise. Their actions may have been poorly thought out and foolish given all that happened in the aftermath, but I don't doubt that they loved one another.

[TarotQueen]

This thread took a really upbeat turn while I was working my way through Harvey!  I love that there is more open discussion going on. 

I wish I was better at quoting here ....

yaddayadda, I love your theory of why so much mystery surrounds the elopement of these two.  I think its as like to be the case as anything else ... do you write?  It would make great fan fic, although I have a Mance is Rhaegar ficlet I'll have to get back to finishing some day before I could do it.  Let me ask you if you've thought this through:  if Rhaegar was seeking to escape Aerys' wrath/envy, why do you think Aerys then recalled Rhaegar from TOJ to lead the Targaryen side of the battle?  Sheer desperation is enough of a reason on its own I guess, just wondering if you had any deeper ideas?  Because if Rhaegar had won it would have put him in an even more enviably good political position to depose his father, so it would seem like a risk for Aerys even if he had to balance it against the risk of the usurper army too.

pogojoco, agreed, Elia knew what was up with R+L.  I like all the points you make and want to add that I wonder a lot about hearing after Aegon how she "couldn't have anymore children."  I read that and I think, was that a description or a prescription?  Maybe "shouldn't" would have also been accurate, in which case, sure there's moon tea, but I assume it's not guaranteed effective.  If she loved Rhaegar, she may very well not have wanted him to give up, not just the possibility of more children, but perhaps sex too.  He isn't written to be a huge lech like Robert, but he was 24 and red blooded. 

I looked up Stefan Sasse too because of your post, but its hard to navigate to a particular theory on the many websites where he publishes.  Can you link to what you were referring to? 

Why Elia had no protection on Dragonstone is a big question. If yaddayadda is right, it explains why the Kingsguard weren't with her and the children, but why not some of their bannerman there (there are a few houses sworn to DS right?) or the a contingent of Martell soldiers?  But my best guess is that there is some plotting involved that kept from happening too.

I am curious about the Tourney at Harrenhal too, because yes, the QoLaB thing is very disrespectful to Elia. But there again, wouldn't it be a husbandly thing to do to talk over this task his father gave him with his wife, who was probably at the very least his good friend?  "Oh yeah, honey, it ends up TKotLT was a girl, and this is why she did it ...."  If he wanted to recognize Lyanna for it at all, it was going to have to be covert, maybe that was his motive ... like an inside salute.  Maybe Elia even approved that, being (likely to be) of a fiery Martell temperament and having been raised in a less classist region of the 7 K.

Agreed too, with you yadda yadda.  Lyanna Stark was no dummy about people's natures.  I think Robert would have made her even more miserable than he made Cersei the first time he figured out the strength of her real personality instead of his pedestal image and found out that she wasn't the wife that was promised.

[screamin]

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

And this alone makes me question all the speculation that he looked at her as someone who was just there to birth him this 3rd child, that he looked at her and saw her as nothing more than a womb. When I read that line though, I thought it was just one of the saddest things. For me, it was on par with Catelyn thinking about how much Ned loved her hair right before she was killed. I thought it was this more glimpse into something that was rather intimate.

Oh, I never denied that Rhaegar did love Lyanna - I just don't think that that excludes the possibility that he also saw her as the ideal baby mama - indeed, he might have felt the kindling feeling toward her as a sign that the gods were sending him his ideal destined love for their divine purpose of begetting a savior - of course they were Ment 2 B!

And thinking it over, I realize I was unfair to Rhaegar when I said he'd never tried to do anything good enough to justify his outsized posthumous reputation as an exceedingly good man. I remembered that he DID try to do something that was both good and brave - IF we are to believe Varys - he tried to conspire with the other lords at Harrenhal to have mad Aerys deposed. This was risking his life, and I can believe he was doing it for the good of the many, not out of thirst for political power (mainly because he mismanaged his escapade with Lyanna so badly, with such horrific political consequences, that I can't believe he ever gave much thought to practical politics). But there are two problems with that. First, we don't know for sure if Rhaegar really was trying to conspire to depose Aerys at Harrenhal, or whether this was some exaggerated story or total invention by Varys to continue his ongoing campaign to foment distrust between Aerys and Rhaegar. Second, even if he was, as soon as he met difficulty (Aerys coming to Harrenal at Varys' behest to foil any conspiracy) and distraction (something shiny like Lyanna flitting across his path) he threw over his plan to depose Aerys and never returned to it. So I can't say his truly good intentions came to anything much in his lifetime - and that was for lack of trying, on his part.

[glowbug]

57 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh, I never denied that Rhaegar did love Lyanna - I just don't think that that excludes the possibility that he also saw her as the ideal baby mama - indeed, he might have felt the kindling feeling toward her as a sign that the gods were sending him his ideal destined love for their divine purpose of begetting a savior - of course they were Ment 2 B!

And thinking it over, I realize I was unfair to Rhaegar when I said he'd never tried to do anything good enough to justify his outsized posthumous reputation as an exceedingly good man. I remembered that he DID try to do something that was both good and brave - IF we are to believe Varys - he tried to conspire with the other lords at Harrenhal to have mad Aerys deposed. This was risking his life, and I can believe he was doing it for the good of the many, not out of thirst for political power (mainly because he mismanaged his escapade with Lyanna so badly, with such horrific political consequences, that I can't believe he ever gave much thought to practical politics). But there are two problems with that. First, we don't know for sure if Rhaegar really was trying to conspire to depose Aerys at Harrenhal, or whether this was some exaggerated story or total invention by Varys to continue his ongoing campaign to foment distrust between Aerys and Rhaegar. Second, even if he was, as soon as he met difficulty (Aerys coming to Harrenal at Varys' behest to foil any conspiracy) and distraction (something shiny like Lyanna flitting across his path) he threw over his plan to depose Aerys and never returned to it. So I can't say his truly good intentions came to anything much in his lifetime - and that was for lack of trying, on his part.

Rhaegar really was trying to depose his father. He told Jaime Lannister before leaving for the Trident that after the battle was done (which he clearly assumed he would win) that he was going to call a council and that changes would be made. He also alludes to regretting not doing it earlier. Up until his death he was still planning to depose his father but he died before he could bring his plans to fruition.

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

Oh, I never denied that Rhaegar did love Lyanna - I just don't think that that excludes the possibility that he also saw her as the ideal baby mama - indeed, he might have felt the kindling feeling toward her as a sign that the gods were sending him his ideal destined love for their divine purpose of begetting a savior - of course they were Ment 2 B!

And thinking it over, I realize I was unfair to Rhaegar when I said he'd never tried to do anything good enough to justify his outsized posthumous reputation as an exceedingly good man. I remembered that he DID try to do something that was both good and brave - IF we are to believe Varys - he tried to conspire with the other lords at Harrenhal to have mad Aerys deposed. This was risking his life, and I can believe he was doing it for the good of the many, not out of thirst for political power (mainly because he mismanaged his escapade with Lyanna so badly, with such horrific political consequences, that I can't believe he ever gave much thought to practical politics). But there are two problems with that. First, we don't know for sure if Rhaegar really was trying to conspire to depose Aerys at Harrenhal, or whether this was some exaggerated story or total invention by Varys to continue his ongoing campaign to foment distrust between Aerys and Rhaegar. Second, even if he was, as soon as he met difficulty (Aerys coming to Harrenal at Varys' behest to foil any conspiracy) and distraction (something shiny like Lyanna flitting across his path) he threw over his plan to depose Aerys and never returned to it. So I can't say his truly good intentions came to anything much in his lifetime - and that was for lack of trying, on his part.

Jaime's POV in AFFC does seem to confirm that Rhaegar was working towards deposing his father.

"When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but...well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

I tend to go easier on him. His family was decimated on the day he was born because they were trying to hatch dragons and he seems to have carried some amount of guilt for that, his parents hated each other, his father was violent towards his mother, until Viserys was born, none of his siblings survived, Barristan said that he didn't think he had in him to be happy because he seemed to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders. 

That's such a sad way to live. 

The exchange with Jaime makes it sound like everything just got out of hand. It just seems like he was blindsided by everything that went down after he left. It's easy for me to imagine that he put his trust in the wrong people. I know what he did ultimately led to war, but still.

I still don't think he saw Lyanna as the perfect baby mama. If the vision Dany is anything to go by, then he did not grasp the meaning of ice and fire. I can see it happening much later when he and Lyanna are together, but not at the tourney of Harrenhal. Aegon was born a few months after that. 

I'm also stubborn that way ;)

Edited September 1, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[screamin]

9 hours ago, glowbug said:

Rhaegar really was trying to depose his father. He told Jaime Lannister before leaving for the Trident that after the battle was done (which he clearly assumed he would win) that he was going to call a council and that changes would be made. He also alludes to regretting not doing it earlier. Up until his death he was still planning to depose his father but he died before he could bring his plans to fruition.

I wouldn't say Rhaegar was trying to depose his father. From what we know, he intended to try once, by speaking to the gathered lords at the Harrenhal tourney to get their support (if we are to believe Varys). This is praiseworthy of him; he risked death for attempted treason if he'd gone through with it, and he might have had an uphill struggle to convince the other lords of the extent that his father had become a menace, since the kingdom was outwardly peaceful and prosperous, and Aerys was a recluse in the Red Keep mostly, and anything the country knew about his worsening paranoia, his fun and games with fire and people accused of treason, and his vicious mistreatment of Rhaegar's mother might have been discounted as unreliable gossip.

But if he had actually planned to try, Varys foiled it by convincing the king to go to Harrenhal, presumably to show himself as appearing sane enough to give the lie to any of Rhaegar's allegations of madness and to re-establish the lords' loyalty by speaking to them in person. (Varys took the risk that the king wouldn't lose control in public and expose his madness in some way, but apparently Aerys acquitted himself well enough.) Rhaegar then apparently gave up any practical attempt at deposing his father - at least, we hear of none. And the story strongly implies that seeing Lyanna was a derailing factor.

Apparently he decides he'll put up with his father imagining traitors in every corner, putting them to death with fire, then raping his mother.  Elia had become pregnant just before Harrenhal or soon after (whenever it happened, we know Rhaegar took note of a red comet on the night of his conception and decided it meant he'd begetted the PTwP that night) and we hear nothing of Rhaegar doing anything about deposing Aerys for those nine months. The next we see of him is the scene with him and Elia and baby Aegon, who she has nearly died to give birth to. The maesters have presumably already said that Elia could not bear more children. Rhaegar grandiosely and falsely prophecies that the baby will be king and names him Aegon to suit (SPOILER: the poor kid won't). Elia tries to make the most of the tender moment by asking if he will compose a song for the child. Rhaegar brushes this suggestion off by saying the baby already has a song, because he is the Prince That Was Promised and his is the song of ice and fire. (SPOILER: he isn't and it's not).

Basically, he ropes the poor kid in wrongly at birth into his lifelong obsession with the prophecy, showing no interest in his son as an individual, only how he can jam him into the place in his old puzzle he's SURE he will fit in. THEN he says, (in front of Elia, the dick, who's just nearly died to birth his child). "The dragon has three heads. There must be one more." It's pretty clearly indicated there that he thinks the girl he fell in love with at Harrenhal has her gods-ordained role to play in his Great, Prophesied Destiny.

And IMO, this almost certainly wasn't the first time he'd thought it.  I really doubt that Rhaegar just showed up a year after Harrenhal in front of Lyanna, with no communication in all that time, and said, "Hi, remember me from Harrenhal? I'm the guy who fathered the son all the church bells are ringing about and all the septons are blessing, because Royalty. Wanna elope and make a baby?" and Lyanna replied, "Awesome." It's likely he's been maintaining a romantic correspondence with her all along. I mean, Elia was sickly, had a nearly lethal first pregnancy. Maybe Rhaegar thought that she'd likely die in Aegon's birth and leave him free to wed Lyanna without secrecy, guilt, or difficulty. But Elia had the bad taste to survive without the capacity to birth his third child, and the gods and Rhaegar's heart and erection couldn't wait any longer. Even if he didn't plan and prepare for the elopement as a possibility since Harrenhal, it DID take a lot of planning; making arrangements with Lyanna, setting up the Tower of Joy with its months of supplies to make it a fitting honeymoon hideout, convincing the motherfucking Pope to come to Dorne and conduct the ceremony. Rhaegar was perfectly capable of THIS complicated planning - but not the planning to depose his mad father, even though it would have been much safer to wed Lyanna if he were king. Rhaegar had a one-track mind, and that track was always his obsession with the prophecy. Everything else, including the welfare of his family and the kingdom, took a poor second place.

I do think he was obsessed. When he was a bookish child, he decided he needed to become a warrior so he could be the PTwP he'd read about in a prophecy. We are told he didn't really enjoy fighting, but he forced himself through training he wasn't naturally inclined to to make himself a good warrior, if not a great one. That took YEARS of work. Now, I don't blame young Rhaegar for daydreaming a magical lofty destiny for himself as a child. His childhood was probably lonely and miserable, with most of the family dead at Summerhall, his father and mother hating each other, and no brothers and sisters except a string of miscarriages and sickly babies that died young, with the pressure he himself was under as the last scion, and then later his father slowly going mad and starting to become paranoid of him. I totally don't blame the child Rhaegar for escaping into a fantasy where he is the powerful and all-beloved superhero messiah of the world, instead of a powerless kid in a mad king's castle. Many kids would do that in similar situations, and it even was beneficial in getting him to acquire a useful talent for martial arts. I think that child Rhaegar deserves pity and sympathy.

Adult Rhaegar? Not so much. He continued that obsession throughout his life, ended up with it blinding him to the mother, the wife, the children and the kingdom who needed his help. He HAD the charisma and the martial talent to convince the lords to help him overthrow his father. He didn't care enough to make that his priority; he wanted the messianic glory of connecting himself SOMEHOW to the prophecy more than anything else. I can't see anything to admire or to sympathize for in adult Rhaegar.

[TarotQueen]

FWIW, I asked an old neighbor of mine who is a librarian at a Roman Catholic seminary to do some research, and according to her, annulment has never created de facto bastards from the perspective of the church itself.  Although civil authorities might have tied their decisions regarding heritage to the annulment, that has never been the church's own position.  Doubt that will matter in the books anyway, but it's the best authority I have to go by, so that might be worth considering wrt Fot7 comparisons.

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Even if he didn't plan and prepare for the elopement as a possibility since Harrenhal, it DID take a lot of planning; making arrangements with Lyanna, setting up the Tower of Joy with its months of supplies to make it a fitting honeymoon hideout, convincing the motherfucking Pope to come to Dorne and conduct the ceremony. Rhaegar was perfectly capable of THIS complicated planning - but not the planning to depose his mad father, even though it would have been much safer to wed Lyanna if he were king. Rhaegar had a one-track mind, and that track was always his obsession with the prophecy. Everything else, including the welfare of his family and the kingdom, took a poor second place.

There is a lot in your post I think we can file in the agree to disagree category, but I am honestly curious, are you really comparing the level of planning for an elopement to planning for how to depose a king, or were you just being facetious?  Because I don't see how you fit these two matters on the same scale ....

[screamin]

1 minute ago, TarotQueen said:

There is a lot in your post I think we can file in the agree to disagree category, but I am honestly curious, are you really comparing the level of planning for an elopement to planning for how to depose a king, or were you just being facetious?  Because I don't see how you fit these two matters on the same scale ....

No. But you must admit that persuading the Pope/High Septon to come from KL/The Vatican all the way down to Dorne under medieval traveling conditions to annul one marriage and officiate another marriage that is bound to piss off at least three high lords and stir up political hell even under the best circumstances, along with persuading the perspective bride to abscond from her family and leave her family in the position of having broken their word to Baratheon, not to mention covering the tracks of their getaway (over hundreds of miles) and preparing their hideout, IS a very far cry from a young man persuading a woman to go down a ladder, drive off in his car to City Hall and then to a motel, and surprise their families with it a day later.

Rhaegar certainly had unusual powers of persuasion. This is what he chose to use them for. No doubt absconding with Lyanna and persuading ONE powerful figure (the High Septon/Pope) to become his accomplice in that act is less difficult than persuading a sufficient number of high lords to become his accomplice in deposing his father. But him choosing to abscond with Lyanna first while leaving his father in power as a loose cannon to deal with the consequences makes all the consequences of the elopement much harder to deal with than they would have been if he were king, and by postponing taking down Aerys to pursue Lyanna, he shows his priorities are to his love and his obsession with prophecy FIRST - above his responsibility to his kingdom, his mother, his children and their mother. And I do judge him badly for that.

[YaddaYadda]

@screamin, I think you and I can go several rounds on this and not agree on much. I think the thing that gets to me the most is that there's a good chance we'll never know because GRRM isn't going to give the farm in Winds. The story will be spread through Winds and Spring. The odds of us finding out anything and putting this debate to rest are very very slim. 

Two things though. I'm not taking the annulment as anything but a show thing. Same for Jon's show name. I doubt that's his name in the books.

The other thing is about the ToJ. The tower was by no means isolated. It's on the Prince's Pass and there are castles that are "close", including High Hermitage and they are bannermen to the Daynes. And Franklyn Fowler is still very much alive and he is the Warden of the Prince's Pass. He might be someone who knows much and more about those months in the tower. It's not like you can hide two kingsguard, including the one who is a Dornishman and known throughout the Seven Kingdoms and the guy with the very distinct hair. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[screamin]

19 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

@screamin, I think you and I can go several rounds on this and not agree on much. I think the thing that gets to me the most is that there's a good chance we'll never know because GRRM isn't going to give the farm in Winds. The story will be spread through Winds and Spring. The odds of us finding out anything and putting this debate to rest are very very slim. 

Two things though. I'm not taking the annulment as anything but a show thing. Same for Jon's show name. I doubt that's his name in the books.

The other thing is about the ToJ. The tower was by no means isolated. It's on the Prince's Pass and there are castles that are "close", including High Hermitage and they are bannermen to the Daynes. And Franklyn Fowler is still very much alive and he is the Warden of the Prince's Pass. He might be someone who knows much and more about those months in the tower. It's not like you can hide two kingsguard, including the one who is a Dornishman and known throughout the Seven Kingdoms and the guy with the very distinct hair. 

I always assumed that Arthur Dayne was in contact with someone at the Dayne's stead. It makes sense that Ned went from Ashara's castle straight to the tower because he'd gotten information from the there about exactly where the KG had Lyanna hidden. And I agree that Rhaegar had the means to receive information from there or other nearby places if he'd wanted to. Let's say Varys, however, had managed to corrupt the maesters around the ToJ to destroy his messages, and maybe even to give him false messages in return for any he sent, to keep him ignorant of his lack of communication. At some point - and fairly quickly, if he were actually interested in keeping track of things - he'd notice that the news on the ground does not match the news he's getting by raven...is in fact radically different. The news of the Warden of the North being burned alive would spread quickly enough even without ravens working nearby the castle - everyone would be talking about a probable cause for war, and travelers would inevitably spread the news even to places with corrupt maesters. And when the war actually started - not even Varys could keep that news from spreading. Any messenger Rhaegar sent to pick up his messages would have heard of it from any person he spoke to on the way. But he does not leave the tower or find any different way to send his messages as the war rages on. Aerys has to send for him because the war is going badly. Gerrold Hightower goes to fetch him and finds him. And Rhaegar orders him to stay at the tower even though he's the Commander of the Kingsguard, thus depriving his father (and his mother and brother, and his first wife and children) of one MORE KG. I always thought Rhaegar ordered him to stay because he wanted to keep him from telling Aerys anything, and that Hightower was glad to obey the order - even in the middle of a war to overthrow his king - because he was sick of Aerys and wanted some excuse to stay away from him. Which IMO shows what Rhaegar could have accomplished with a palace revolution if only he'd put his mind to it.

Anyway, my point is that the only way Rhaegar could have remained ignorant of the war till Hightower came knocking is if he'd deliberately cut himself off from all communication - including that necessary to monitor the crisis he'd precipitated. And this is the best-case scenario. The worst is that he was aware of the war and ignored it because his honeymoon and the all-important impregnation of the third dragon's head took precedence over everything else. Neither possibility is to his credit.

I totally agree that we're not likely to ever get the full story of what happened from GRRM. It just seems to me that no matter what information we could eventually get, nothing he could add to what we know already could redeem Rhaegar from the charges of being monstrously selfish and deluded, at least partially through his narcissistic belief in his own importance. And it would really annoy me if the show just handwaved that off with a few words about how Rhaegar was magnificent because he begat Jon the savior.

[YaddaYadda]

That's the thing though, it's all hard to tell. And the timelines are murky at best. 

One thing is fairly clear for me and it's that the Dornish knew Rhaegar was there. The Prince's Pass is historically significant for both the Dornish and the Targaryens and him staying there could not have been a coincidence, especially when I read The Soiled Knight chapter in AFFC and this was well before the World book came out. He could have as easily gone to Starfall or traveled to Essos and stayed there where he would have been far removed from Westerosi affairs. So I think that he chose that tower for a very specific reason. 

The other thing is that no one seemed to know where he was. If they didn't know where he in King's Landing or on Dragonstone, it means he didn't leave a forwarding address.

For me, this is always going to go back to how information is transmitted and what is shared. Rhaegar and the kingsguard might have been getting second hand information for all we know. If the people in King's Landing don't know where Rhaegar is, they can't send ravens directly to him.

If Lyanna sent a raven to Winterfell telling her father that she is with Rhaegar and that she is fine, maester Walys who is charge of the ravens may have decided to keep that to himself and destroy it. That's one way to not share pertinent information. 

One thing that just makes me question so many things is the flow of false information and lies and how they have been used to bring people and Houses down. LF is Lord Protector of the Vale. House because of his lies and manipulations, House Stark has been brought to its knees because of lies and manipulations and betrayals, the Tullys are not faring all that well. Ned was beheaded and Jon stabbed to death.

It's like how House Liddle knows that Bran is alive, but they don't even seem to share that piece of information even though by all accounts, Bran is the lord of winterfell and he is the one everyone should be looking for. The Liddles are with Stannis marching on Winterfell, trying to rescue Arya. And then there's Mance Rayder who is inside Winterfell and says he paid attention to the Stark children, so he should know that the girl who is married is not Arya, but it doesn't look like he's told that to anyone. Theon knows that Jeyne Poole, but I can handwaive that he is too traumatized and him telling the truth could get them both tortured by Ramsay. But once he is in Stannis's camp, there's no reason to keep that secret anymore. Jonnel Cerwyn probably knows that Arya is not Arya. The Arya lie has Wyman Manderly bleeding like a pig inside Winterfell and might have had one of the Umber brothers beheaded (I don't remember which one is inside Winterfell).

Would Jon have decided to ride to Winterfell if he knew Arya was not the real Arya? Jon is stabbed because he decides to act after he receives the pink letter. This is how one lie has the north going and how it has Jon going. I think there are parallels to be had between what led Jon to that moment and how Rhaegar got to his moment on the Trident. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[screamin]

22 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

That's the thing though, it's all hard to tell. And the timelines are murky at best. 

One thing is fairly clear for me and it's that the Dornish knew Rhaegar was there. The Prince's Pass is historically significant for both the Dornish and the Targaryens and him staying there could not have been a coincidence, especially when I read The Soiled Knight chapter in AFFC and this was well before the World book came out. He could have as easily gone to Starfall or traveled to Essos and stayed there where he would have been far removed from Westerosi affairs. So I think that he chose that tower for a very specific reason. 

 

The Dornish knew Rhaegar was at the ToJ? Do you mean the Dornish prince in power? And yet, knowing he was there, they discreetly left him undisturbed on his polygamous honeymoon (the Dornish may be cool with people keeping lovers and mistresses, but I don't think they practice polygamy) even though GRRM says that Doran was furious with the Targaryens' mistreatment of Elia and thus slow to send troops to Aerys , and even though Aerys took Elia and her children hostage to ensure Dornish compliance? It never occurred to Doran that maybe grabbing Rhaegar and refusing to return him when Aerys required him for battle might have provided the leverage he wanted to get Elia and her kids back from Aerys in exchange - as well as getting a useful hostage in Lyanna to force more favorable terms from the hostile North? I find that difficult to believe. To me it's more likely that Rhaegar chose that tower because the seat of his BFF Arthur Dayne was nearby, and Arthur no doubt had connections there. I don't think anything Oberyn said in book or on show seems to indicate the Martells condoned Rhaegar's actions.

 

Quote

 

The other thing is that no one seemed to know where he was. If they didn't know where he in King's Landing or on Dragonstone, it means he didn't leave a forwarding address.

For me, this is always going to go back to how information is transmitted and what is shared. Rhaegar and the kingsguard might have been getting second hand information for all we know. If the people in King's Landing don't know where Rhaegar is, they can't send ravens directly to him.

 

And yet Gerrold Hightower, once told to seek Rhaegar out and bring him back to KL, seemed to have no trouble finding him. Which means that either Rhaegar left a trail leading to the tower as wide as a six-lane highway that was obvious even MONTHS after Rhaegar got to the tower - and in that case, why did Brandon have trouble following Rhaegar when the trail was fresh? - OR, Gerrold did have some sort of 'forwarding address' from Rhaegar about his future plans. IMO, along with Gerrold happily accepting Rhaegar's order to stay at the tower guarding one pregnant wife while another wife, Rhaegar's children, Rhaegar's mother, and most importantly the king that Hightower swore his KG vows to wait at KL with a diminishing number of KG to guard them all, this shows Rhaegar had a great deal of influence over Hightower, the KG commander, that he could have put to much better use in deposing his father than in starting a war over a new wife. His choice.

And yes, I get that communication by raven is uncertain, and that fake Arya and other various misunderstanding show that. But IMO, even if Rhaegar's maester (if he had one at his beck and call near the ToJ) was corrupted and sending false news, the war was raging for months by the time Rhaegar left the tower. There would have come a point when Arthur Dayne (if he were the one going and receiving messages, bringing supplies and the wet-nurse, and other errands, since he knew the terrain) could NOT have avoided hearing that travellers to Dayne's castle brought news of the war, or seeing that all the lords around were having their troops called up and that every person he talked to was full of this news...you say yourself that the ToJ was a fairly well-populated area for a desert. At some point Rhaegar must have become aware of the war, IF he had any genuine interest in what was going on outside the tower, in monitoring the situation he had precipitated. Yet he does not come out to deal with it till Aerys drags him back. So I come again against the idea that either Rhaegar deliberately cut himself off from news outside the tower, or he knew - and didn't care.

[YaddaYadda]

Why wouldn't the Dornish know that a prince and two of the kingsguard are on their land? Again, the tower doesn't exist in a vacuum. We know from Arianne there are merchant caravans that travel the Prince's Pass. 

Doran knew Arianne was scheming with her friends because someone went to him and told on her. He left her to her schemes and that in the end became a mistake. 

And the information I'm referring to is not with regard to ravens, but the information people have and how they choose to share it. Doran decided to not tell Arianne anything about his plans for her because she was too close to Tyene and Tyene tells Obara and Lady Nym everything, and when she's drunk, Obara has loose lips and Lady Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. So he withholds crucial information from her that leads her down that path with Myrcella. 

That's all I'm saying. People with knowledge choose to dispense it any way they wish. They choose what information they wanna share if they share said information at all, they can distort the information they have to suit their own purpose. Secrets are worth a lot. 

In the end, we don't know what Rhaegar knew or didn't know, what he might have shared or didn't share, or if he knew anything at all. But someone always talks. 

It's almost shocking that no one has spilled the big Jon secret already. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Why wouldn't the Dornish know that a prince and two of the kingsguard are on their land? Again, the tower doesn't exist in a vacuum. We know from Arianne there are merchant caravans that travel the Prince's Pass. 

Doran knew Arianne was scheming with her friends because someone went to him and told on her. He left her to her schemes and that in the end became a mistake. 

And the information I'm referring to is not with regard to ravens, but the information people have and how they choose to share it. Doran decided to not tell Arianne anything about his plans for her because she was too close to Tyene and Tyene tells Obara and Lady Nym everything, and when she's drunk, Obara has loose lips and Lady Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. So he withholds crucial information from her that leads her down that path with Myrcella. 

That's all I'm saying. People with knowledge choose to dispense it any way they wish. They choose what information they wanna share if they share said information at all, they can distort the information they have to suit their own purpose. Secrets are worth a lot. 

In the end, we don't know what Rhaegar knew or didn't know, what he might have shared or didn't share, or if he knew anything at all. But someone always talks. 

It's almost shocking that no one has spilled the big Jon secret already. 

Okay, so you assume Doran knows all about Rhaegar shtupping his second wife, Lyanna Stark, on his own territory, while Rhaegar's first wife Elia is in KL as Aerys' hostage for Dorne's good behavior. He knows he has Rhaegar, a potential hostage that he could exchange for Elia and her kids to get her safely out of Aerys' hands. He knows he ALSO has Lyanna Stark, a sister of Ned Stark, one of the leaders of the opposition forces that Dorne is currently officially at war with, who could ALSO be used as a hostage to negotiate with the opposing side. But he does NOT use these hostages. He even does not demand that Rhaegar come out and explain himself and his affair with Lyanna to the King and his Lords Paramount to keep the war from happening, or getting worse. He knows all about Rhaegar there, but he is tactful enough NEVER to interrupt Rhaegar's honeymoon lest he put him off his stroke...so tactful that in the end it's Aerys who sends Hightower to interrupt him. With his sister Elia in Aerys' dangerous hands, WHY in the world would Doran do that?

Edited September 3, 2017 by screamin

[YaddaYadda]

47 minutes ago, screamin said:

Okay, so you assume Doran knows all about Rhaegar shtupping his second wife, Lyanna Stark, on his own territory, while Rhaegar's first wife Elia is in KL as Aerys' hostage for Dorne's good behavior. He knows he has Rhaegar, a potential hostage that he could exchange for Elia and her kids to get her safely out of Aerys' hands. He knows he ALSO has Lyanna Stark, a sister of Ned Stark, one of the leaders of the opposition forces that Dorne is currently officially at war with, who could ALSO be used as a hostage to negotiate with the opposing side. But he does NOT use these hostages. He even does not demand that Rhaegar come out and explain himself and his affair with Lyanna to the King and his Lords Paramount to keep the war from happening, or getting worse. He knows all about Rhaegar there, but he is tactful enough NEVER to interrupt Rhaegar's honeymoon lest he put him off his stroke...so tactful that in the end it's Aerys who sends Hightower to interrupt him. With his sister Elia in Aerys' dangerous hands, WHY in the world would Doran do that?

It's a speculation. There's nothing much to go on. If Doran had no idea, then it means his warden of the Prince's Pass was less than forthcoming about who was camped out there. 

But I think that the political situation in Dorne is a lot more complicated than it is in say the north. I think Doran always had and will always have to tread carefully with his bannermen, especially the Yronwoods. The Yronwoods fought with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions. The Fowlers and Yronwoods hate each other. The Dornish seem to have a problem with Doran. At the very least his own family has a problem with him and the way he's been doing things. What he sees as caution, they see as weakness and he is constantly compared to Oberyn. I don't think he has ever been in a very enviable position. Maybe we'll find out his thoughts about Rhaegar and the things he did and how much he blames him. But he and Oberyn were ready to get back into bed with the Targaryens by marrying Arianne to Viserys and Quentyn to Dany, and this was before the dragons were ever back in the picture.

Again though, for me, this goes back to what went down before Rhaegar even left with Lyanna and we don't know what his reasons were to go to Dorne. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[screamin]

On 9/3/2017 at 5:18 PM, YaddaYadda said:

It's a speculation. There's nothing much to go on. If Doran had no idea, then it means his warden of the Prince's Pass was less than forthcoming about who was camped out there. 

But I think that the political situation in Dorne is a lot more complicated than it is in say the north. I think Doran always had and will always have to tread carefully with his bannermen, especially the Yronwoods. The Yronwoods fought with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions. The Fowlers and Yronwoods hate each other. The Dornish seem to have a problem with Doran. At the very least his own family has a problem with him and the way he's been doing things. What he sees as caution, they see as weakness and he is constantly compared to Oberyn. I don't think he has ever been in a very enviable position. Maybe we'll find out his thoughts about Rhaegar and the things he did and how much he blames him. But he and Oberyn were ready to get back into bed with the Targaryens by marrying Arianne to Viserys and Quentyn to Dany, and this was before the dragons were ever back in the picture.

Again though, for me, this goes back to what went down before Rhaegar even left with Lyanna and we don't know what his reasons were to go to Dorne. 

Sorry, hadn't seen this for awhile. I don't think it is so farfetched that a relatively small party can pass unnoticed by the Warden of the Prince's Pass. The Kingsguard don't just specialize in prancing about in conspicuous armor - they also were capable of doing undercover work. Barristan Selmy used a disguise as a beggar to rescue King Aerys when he was held prisoner. I don't think it seems impossible the KG could not have guided them past whatever checkpoints there may have been under cover of night or in disguises as necessary.

I think that's more likely than that every bannerman of Doran's knew exactly where Rhaegar was and what he was up to with Lyanna, knew that it was causing a war, but were still SO devoted to him that Doran was too afraid that his own bannermen would prefer to fight their own Martell Prince rather than allow Rhaegar's honeymoon with his new non-Dornish wife to be disturbed. All I can say is that if Rhaegar had the charismatic power to convince Doran's underlings to rebel against Doran if he dared interrupt his newlywed bliss, then this again reflects poorly on Rhaegar for not choosing to exert that power toward the worthy goal of dethroning Aerys before screwing Lyanna (and the nation).

Me, I think them hiding in the Dornish desert was simply a combination of the area being his closest friend Arthur's birthplace, so he knows the territory and its inhabitants thoroughly and has the contacts to get them whatever they need, as well as the too-clever-by-half thought that Dorne is the LAST place anyone would think to look for them.

Edited September 18, 2017 by screamin

[lucindabelle]

We know it was annulled though don't we? GIlly read it in the book and it's how sam knows rhaegar and Leanna were married.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

We know it was annulled though don't we? GIlly read it in the book and it's how sam knows rhaegar and Leanna were married.

In the show, yes. In the books, it's more likely that Rhaegar contracted a second polygamous marriage, as the Targaryens had done in the past. GRRM based the Faith of the Seven (distantly) on the Catholic church, and an annulment in the church is a Big Deal, requiring the grounds for it to be rehashed and reviewed over many months, if not longer, and so it's unlikely that it could have been accomplished in a hurry and in secret, as the show pictures it. Probably the show didn't want to waste time explaining the Targaryen history of polygamy (which would also conflict with their 'they were in love' narrative for most of their non-polygamous audience), so they used the word "annulment" to mean "quickie divorce" on the show.

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

We know it was annulled though don't we? GIlly read it in the book and it's how sam knows rhaegar and Leanna were married.

I'm operating on the show having chosen their own way on this.

Whatever happened in the books seems a lot more complicated than a simple annulment. D&D clearly didn't care how an annulment can be obtained. And they also don't live in the real world where you can't get an annulment if you've already had a roll in the hay with your spouse.

A divorce I can see, we know they exist, but they are very rare. Naerys asked Aegon to set their marriage aside after she gave birth to Daeron. That implies divorce. Cersei was worried Robert would set their marriage aside for a new Lyanna, and this conversation happens in the second Bran chapter in AGOT. 

Polygamy is definitely an option. But I don't know about that. Would the High Septon be more open to the idea of a divorce or a polygamous marriage? 

Edited September 18, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[screamin]

49 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'm operating on the show having chosen their own way on this.

Whatever happened in the books seems a lot more complicated than a simple annulment. D&D clearly didn't care how an annulment can be obtained. And they also don't live in the real world where you can't get an annulment if you've already had a roll in the hay with your spouse.

A divorce I can see, we know they exist, but they are very rare. Naerys asked Aegon to set their marriage aside after she gave birth to Daeron. That implies divorce. Cersei was worried Robert would set their marriage aside for a new Lyanna, and this conversation happens in the second Bran chapter in AGOT. 

Polygamy is definitely an option. But I don't know about that. Would the High Septon be more open to the idea of a divorce or a polygamous marriage? 

Honestly, I don't think the High Septon's going to be involved at all in the books. It just seems like it would be too implausible that Rhaegar was powerful enough to drag the Pope into his machinations and keep that in secret, or that the Pope would willingly go along with engineering that kind of political havoc. It may be that Rhaegar and Lyanna contracted a marriage by an ordinary septon, and that this marriage was valid because Rhaegar was a Targaryen and thus capable of being a legal bigamist (it having already been historically established that the Faith of the Seven sanctioned polygamous marriage for royalty, however reluctantly).

Edited September 18, 2017 by screamin

[Jazzy24]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'm operating on the show having chosen their own way on this.

Whatever happened in the books seems a lot more complicated than a simple annulment. D&D clearly didn't care how an annulment can be obtained. And they also don't live in the real world where you can't get an annulment if you've already had a roll in the hay with your spouse.

A divorce I can see, we know they exist, but they are very rare. Naerys asked Aegon to set their marriage aside after she gave birth to Daeron. That implies divorce. Cersei was worried Robert would set their marriage aside for a new Lyanna, and this conversation happens in the second Bran chapter in AGOT. 

Polygamy is definitely an option. But I don't know about that. Would the High Septon be more open to the idea of a divorce or a polygamous marriage? 

I think the marriage getting put aside would have been easier then to do a polygamous marriage. GRRM said that cause the Targs had Dragons it was easier for them to get away with things like incest and polygamy so it would be much much harder for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna while still married to Elia. Also not a lot of Targs had multiple wives. 

 

Like me you said I'm pretty sure that whatever happened in the books was much more complicated. I don't care if Lyanna and Rhaegar married, it shouldn't matter if they did or didn't and I hope GRRM goes this route. 

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Honestly, I don't think the High Septon's going to be involved at all in the books. It just seems like it would be too implausible that Rhaegar was powerful enough to drag the Pope into his machinations and keep that in secret, or that the Pope would willingly go along with engineering that kind of political havoc. It may be that Rhaegar and Lyanna contracted a marriage by an ordinary septon, and that this marriage was valid because Rhaegar was a Targaryen and thus capable of being a legal bigamist (it having already been historically established that the Faith of the Seven sanctioned polygamous marriage for royalty, however reluctantly).

I hope this is coherent because I feel like my brain has been dipped in ice and I'm having a hard time aligning my thoughts.

Let's set Robert's Rebellion aside for a second or let's pretend Rhaegar is the one who won at the Trident. From the Jaime POV in AFFC, there's nothing to indicate that Rhaegar is being fatalistic about the Trident. He's already planning on what he'll be doing when the fighting is over. Whether he's taken Lyanna as a second wife or set his marriage to Elia aside to take Lyanna as his only wife, it's the High Septon he needs, not someone like say septon Maribald.

(Option 3 is it didn't matter to him whether his child with Lyanna was bastard born or legitimate or was planning on legitimizing which I don't know how well that would have gone either.) 

It wouldn't make sense to piss off the Faith when he needs them on his side, especially after he's just fought a war. Cersei had to basically buy Tommen's blessing from the new High Septon (HS). When Maegor took a second wife, no septon wanted to officiate the ceremony, so Visenya officiated a Valyrian ceremony instead (which I don't even how legitimate that is in the Seven Kingdoms, but Alys Karstark got married by a red priestess, so who knows). 

1 hour ago, Jazzy24 said:

I think the marriage getting put aside would have been easier then to do a polygamous marriage. GRRM said that cause the Targs had Dragons it was easier for them to get away with things like incest and polygamy so it would be much much harder for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna while still married to Elia. Also not a lot of Targs had multiple wives. 

I agree. And at this point, it seems the Faith was more willing to accept the Targ incest than they were polygamy. And we have a good example of how (as far as I remember) they didn't bat an eye at Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen being born from incest (but that might have had something to do with them not wanting to piss off Tywin).

[TarotQueen]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I hope this is coherent because I feel like my brain has been dipped in ice and I'm having a hard time aligning my thoughts.

Uh oh, the NK knows we're here now and can get into our thread!

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I don't give Lyanna any slack.

Nor do I, but it's more on Rhager , she has her part, but the Prince should had known better.

Unless we find out they sent notice and someone interfered.

[Sunshinegal]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Nor do I, but it's more on Rhager , she has her part, but the Prince should had known better.

Unless we find out they sent notice and someone interfered.

I Agree.  I blame him for most of it.  He might not be a kidnapper and rapist but he did leave his children, insulted dorne, left his mom and viserys, and run off with an unmarried woman.  He would of known that both Brandon and Robert would be angry.  If he didn't he's stupider than a bag of rocks.  That is not counting dorne's reaction.  

I don't know if somebody interfered.  But if you are running off with an unmarried daughter of a powerful lord, you should have a backup plan or two.

[GrailKing]

Like getting permission first, or hey! don't go to KL my dad's nuts but I have plans .

Better yet don't do it.

[GraceK]

This made me laugh 

[LeGrandElephant]

Maybe this is a better thread for the question I just put in the Jon thread. I read the books first and I’m more familiar with them than the show, but I switched to the show when it was clear the books would never catch up. Just finished season 7. 

 

So so here’s my question: I remember tons of hinting and foreshadowing in the book that Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaeggar - for instance, Ned did a lot of thinking in book 1 about Lyanna’s “been of blood”. But I don’t remember any of those internal thoughts in the show. 

 

So what, if any, hinting and foreshadowing was there in the show about Jon being their son (before season 7)?

[YaddaYadda]

I think this is a good compilation of clues and hints, I think. 

[ulkis]

On 12/17/2018 at 6:01 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

So what, if any, hinting and foreshadowing was there in the show about Jon being their son (before season 7)?

I'm sure there were some but I thought they did a pretty poor job with it overall. I think what clued people in in the books was the wondering who Jon's mother is and in the show no one really asks or thinks about it. Jon has one line asking who his mother was in the 2nd episode and that was about it. The show mentioned Rhaegar and Lyanna a couple of times but it was never in a way that would make people think they could have had a kid. There was so much infodumping in the show that I think that Rhaegar and Lyanna having much to do with anything went right over a lot of people's heads.

Edited April 15, 2019 by ulkis