Missed Opportunities: Unexplored Stories in Buffy

[secnarf]

37 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

 As for the famous moment  it was a necessary sacrifice, much like Giles killing Ben or lying to her about why he needs the details of defeating Acathla or Wes lying to the Pylean rebels or Illyria pretending to Wes at the end.

The thing is, it wasn't a sacrifice. Xander told the lie with completely selfish motives.

[Joe Hellandback]

Just now, secnarf said:

The thing is, it wasn't a sacrifice. Xander told the lie with completely selfish motives.

That's one interpretation, another is that he knew the whole world was at stake and it could be fatal for Buffy to be distracted. Remember he had just told Willow that he loved her so I doubt he was thinking of Xuffy at that particular moment. 

[secnarf]

12 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

That's one interpretation, another is that he knew the whole world was at stake and it could be fatal for Buffy to be distracted. Remember he had just told Willow that he loved her so I doubt he was thinking of Xuffy at that particular moment. 

Even if that were true - and I do not believe it is - it still was not a sacrifice on Xander's part.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I have always been mystified by the strong reactions to the "Kick his ass" line. The fact is, Willow's spell was a long shot. A really long shot. And we saw that Buffy didn't assume that Angel was faking it when he did get his soul back (because that would have been a really weird strategy on his part), so what exactly was Xander supposed to prevent by telling the truth? The extremely small likelihood of the spell kicking in when Buffy was about to kill Angel? Yet that's exactly what happened and she didn't kill him.

Secondly, the idea that he did it to get rid of a romantic rival is really a stretch, IMO. First, as I said, the spell was a long shot and as far as Xander was concerned Buffy was most likely either going to have to kill Angel or die trying. Furthermore, Xander had no way of knowing that Buffy would assume Willow did say "Kick his ass" and if this cunning plot had somehow achieved the desired result, the most likely outcome would have been Buffy being very pissed at Xander, rather deciding that since Angel was not around she might as well date Xander because he was a main character. Plus, he was dating Cordelia and was starting to see Willow as a woman too. I am not saying that he didn't fancy Buffy at all but I don't think this was much of a priority for him at that point, especially in a situation where the world was literally about to end.

So, what about him deciding to get rid of Angel because he hated Angel for other reasons? This argument is not as far-fetched as the other ones but still, is it so unreasonable to hate someone who has tried to kill you and your friends again and again? We, the viewers, have luxury of knowing Angel's pesky soul was not going to disappear easily in the future but Xander didn't have that luxury. Even if Willow's desperate plan had worked, how long would it have been before Angel got happy again?  Did Angel really deserve so many chances? I mean, he had lived (after a fashion) longer than any human already. I am not saying Xander was thinking in such precise terms but I personally can't fault him if he was paralyzed with not caring very much about Angel.

Last but not least, it was all a moot point anyway. Angel pulled out the sword from Acathla before Buffy could stop him and after that he couldn't be saved, soul or no soul. If you want to blame someone you might as well blame Spike for not knocking out Angel for longer during that fight. Or Buffy for not attacking earlier, thus giving Angel time to learn how to activate Acathla.

[Perfect Xero]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:34 AM, Dee said:

It was that moment that solidified Xander as a perpetual lightning rod for the fans and nixed any future potential pairing with Buffy (and to a lesser extent Willow) imo.

I'd go so far as to argue it was that moment that eventually led to the never-ending horror that was Spuffy.

I think the fan reaction may have played a role, as did Joss's own shifts in which characters he identified with as he became a more powerful figure with the success of the show. NB's growing issues with alcohol may also have factored in to decisions about how much to feature his character as well.

If we're talking in reference to What If, Ryan Reynolds had been Xander, then IMO a guy with washboard abs and movie star charisma who would go on to be named the "Sexist Man alive" being in the role may well have caused certain segments of the fanbase to be more forgiving of the character or Joss/WB seeing more value in pushing him as a romantic lead.

For that matter, The Lie may have not even played out in the same way (or at all) with different casting. Different actors bring different things to parts, and who knows what directions Joss might have taken things with a different casting.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 12:59 AM, secnarf said:

Even if that were true - and I do not believe it is - it still was not a sacrifice on Xander's part.

It's not Xander being sacrificed!

 

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 9:39 AM, nosleepforme said:

I don't exactly get why Xander is such a bad person for his "kick his ass"-comment. Sure, he never liked Angel and was always strangely possessive of Buffy, but Angel(us) killed Ms. Calender and kidnapped Giles, it was also the first spell that Willow ever did and nobody could know if it would work for sure. I think it was actually good that he didn't tell Buffy that Willow was working on the spell again, because it would have distracted her. I think there were some other problematic Xander moments throughout the run of the show (mostly his self-righteousness), but this was not really one of them. Besides, most of the characters have done much worse things than telling someone to kick the villain's ass. 

I never found him self-righteous, he was 'the one who sees'. 

 

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:22 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

I have always been mystified by the strong reactions to the "Kick his ass" line. The fact is, Willow's spell was a long shot. A really long shot. And we saw that Buffy didn't assume that Angel was faking it when he did get his soul back (because that would have been a really weird strategy on his part), so what exactly was Xander supposed to prevent by telling the truth? The extremely small likelihood of the spell kicking in when Buffy was about to kill Angel? Yet that's exactly what happened and she didn't kill him.

Secondly, the idea that he did it to get rid of a romantic rival is really a stretch, IMO. First, as I said, the spell was a long shot and as far as Xander was concerned Buffy was most likely either going to have to kill Angel or die trying. Furthermore, Xander had no way of knowing that Buffy would assume Willow did say "Kick his ass" and if this cunning plot had somehow achieved the desired result, the most likely outcome would have been Buffy being very pissed at Xander, rather deciding that since Angel was not around she might as well date Xander because he was a main character. Plus, he was dating Cordelia and was starting to see Willow as a woman too. I am not saying that he didn't fancy Buffy at all but I don't think this was much of a priority for him at that point, especially in a situation where the world was literally about to end.

So, what about him deciding to get rid of Angel because he hated Angel for other reasons? This argument is not as far-fetched as the other ones but still, is it so unreasonable to hate someone who has tried to kill you and your friends again and again? We, the viewers, have luxury of knowing Angel's pesky soul was not going to disappear easily in the future but Xander didn't have that luxury. Even if Willow's desperate plan had worked, how long would it have been before Angel got happy again?  Did Angel really deserve so many chances? I mean, he had lived (after a fashion) longer than any human already. I am not saying Xander was thinking in such precise terms but I personally can't fault him if he was paralyzed with not caring very much about Angel.

Last but not least, it was all a moot point anyway. Angel pulled out the sword from Acathla before Buffy could stop him and after that he couldn't be saved, soul or no soul. If you want to blame someone you might as well blame Spike for not knocking out Angel for longer during that fight. Or Buffy for not attacking earlier, thus giving Angel time to learn how to activate Acathla.

Yeah, I don't buy the King David analogy either, this was NOT about Xuffy.

 

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 11:54 PM, Perfect Xero said:

I think the fan reaction may have played a role, as did Joss's own shifts in which characters he identified with as he became a more powerful figure with the success of the show. NB's growing issues with alcohol may also have factored in to decisions about how much to feature his character as well.

If we're talking in reference to What If, Ryan Reynolds had been Xander, then IMO a guy with washboard abs and movie star charisma who would go on to be named the "Sexist Man alive" being in the role may well have caused certain segments of the fanbase to be more forgiving of the character or Joss/WB seeing more value in pushing him as a romantic lead.

For that matter, The Lie may have not even played out in the same way (or at all) with different casting. Different actors bring different things to parts, and who knows what directions Joss might have taken things with a different casting.

From everything I've read Nic's drinking never was a problem on the show but only afterwards, (he seems to have put his hellraising days behind him now) their issue with him was more that he was working out too much so Xander looked too buff (no pun intended), very visible in DMP. Ryan Reynolds would have been all wrong, Xander was the boy next door and the everyman, the show had enough dashing romantic leads, to try to make him that would have made him into another Riley.  

[Perfect Xero]

18 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It's not Xander being sacrificed!

 

I never found him self-righteous, he was 'the one who sees'. 

 

Yeah, I don't buy the King David analogy either, this was NOT about Xuffy.

 

From everything I've read Nic's drinking never was a problem on the show but only afterwards, (he seems to have put his hellraising days behind him now) their issue with him was more that he was working out too much so Xander looked too buff (no pun intended), very visible in DMP. Ryan Reynolds would have been all wrong, Xander was the boy next door and the everyman, the show had enough dashing romantic leads, to try to make him that would have made him into another Riley.  

NB has been pretty upfront about the fact that he doesn't even remember shooting a lot of his scenes in in the last couple of seasons because he was wasted most of the time. So it's hard for me to think that his drinking wasn't an obvious issue to the people making the show.

Xander, as per the Welcome to the Hellmouth shooting script, was described as "bright, funny, and will one day be suave and handsome. Till that day arrives, he’ll do the best he can with bright and funny."

Jesse, by contrast is described as, "He is a little more awkward than Xander, a little less likely to become a lady killer in his later years."

So, IMO, it's easy to see why Reynolds would have been the first choice for the part.

Personally, I don't think that Xander being a "everyman" was ever a design goal, rather it was a rationalization for the fact that the writers weren't particularly interested in doing anything with the character/actor.

NB has been blatant that Joss told him that Xander was "done" at the end of season 4 or 5, and gave him the option of being written off the show or sticking around and collecting a check but knowing that there was nothing important planned for him. And that he sort of regretted choosing to stick around and take the steady pay over taking chances.

Seth Green/Oz, who was also a 'normal guy' (at least 28 days out of the month) also jumped ship from the show in this same general time frame because they didn't really have anything interesting for his character beyond being Willow's cool boyfriend.

ASH also jumped ship a couple of seasons later, at least in part, because they didn't seem to have anything interesting for Giles to do on the show.

The idea of an "everyman" is fine in theory, but what's the point if it's just another way of saying that the writers don't have anything interesting for the character to do? You've basically just got a jumped up background character at that point.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

NB has been pretty upfront about the fact that he doesn't even remember shooting a lot of his scenes in in the last couple of seasons because he was wasted most of the time. So it's hard for me to think that his drinking wasn't an obvious issue to the people making the show.

Xander, as per the Welcome to the Hellmouth shooting script, was described as "bright, funny, and will one day be suave and handsome. Till that day arrives, he’ll do the best he can with bright and funny."

Jesse, by contrast is described as, "He is a little more awkward than Xander, a little less likely to become a lady killer in his later years."

So, IMO, it's easy to see why Reynolds would have been the first choice for the part.

Personally, I don't think that Xander being a "everyman" was ever a design goal, rather it was a rationalization for the fact that the writers weren't particularly interested in doing anything with the character/actor.

NB has been blatant that Joss told him that Xander was "done" at the end of season 4 or 5, and gave him the option of being written off the show or sticking around and collecting a check but knowing that there was nothing important planned for him. And that he sort of regretted choosing to stick around and take the steady pay over taking chances.

Seth Green/Oz, who was also a 'normal guy' (at least 28 days out of the month) also jumped ship from the show in this same general time frame because they didn't really have anything interesting for his character beyond being Willow's cool boyfriend.

ASH also jumped ship a couple of seasons later, at least in part, because they didn't seem to have anything interesting for Giles to do on the show.

The idea of an "everyman" is fine in theory, but what's the point if it's just another way of saying that the writers don't have anything interesting for the character to do? You've basically just got a jumped up background character at that point.

Really? I could never tell he was drunk but then I could never tell with Larry Hagman on IDOG either. I never heard about Xander being 'done' either although you're right in terms of the male cast dropping away as the seasons progressed. But I don't think Oz was ever Mr Ordinary, he was more Mr Bohemian. Glad Nic didn't quit, the show needed a male presence and we wouldn't have had the wonderful scene at the end of 'Grave'.  

[romantic idiot]

I love Xander and NB. Glad he stuck around. I am as Bangel as they come, my moniker is named after them but I never ever blamed or thought badly of NB. I find Spuffy fans to be more unforgiving of that moment than Bangel fans actually.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I think NB's statement that Joss told him that Xander was done at the end of S4/5 is kind of ridiculous, because Xander still grew quite a lot in the later seasons of the show and while he didn't get any of the meaty storylines that Buffy, Willow or Spike would get, he was still a fairly important member of the Scoobie Gang and more prominent than Anya or Tara for example, who were underwritten for most of their time on the show. In season 5, he found his professional path and his relationship with Anya grew, in season 6 he had the whole failed wedding-storyline with Anya and saved the world. Compare that to Anya, who only received her own storyline towards the end of season six or to Tara, who they were writing out just when she became a character independent from Willow. The only season in which he felt somewhat done was S7 and that only because they sidelined most of the characters for a plot-(or more speech-)driven season.

Xander could literally be removed from the plot of most episodes in S5-7 without anything important having to be changed. And yes, so could some other regulars but so what, two wrongs don't make it right. In most episodes his most important role was to be the straight man for Anya's jokes.

And I disagree that he grew in those seasons. Xander of S2 would never have let Spike stick around unstaked, tried to marry a serial killer, failed to notice Buffy's depression or Willow's addiction/power trip for so long. He was merely ignored by Joss and company and that's why he wasn't character assassinated as badly as Buffy, Willow and Giles but growth this is not, IMO. Okay, he got a nice job but that happened largely off-screen and wasn't so much development as one moment Xander's struggles to find a job are super funny, the next his superiors praise him with nothing in between.

Quote

They were planning a bigger storyline for Oz in season four though, the whole Veruca-Storyline was supposed to last longer and was cut short when Seth decided to quit the show.

Thank goodness because the Veruca storyline was all kinds of stupid.

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I think NB's statement that Joss told him that Xander was done at the end of S4/5 is kind of ridiculous, because Xander still grew quite a lot in the later seasons of the show and while he didn't get any of the meaty storylines that Buffy, Willow or Spike would get, he was still a fairly important member of the Scoobie Gang and more prominent than Anya or Tara for example, who were underwritten for most of their time on the show. In season 5, he found his professional path and his relationship with Anya grew, in season 6 he had the whole failed wedding-storyline with Anya and saved the world. Compare that to Anya, who only received her own storyline towards the end of season six or to Tara, who they were writing out just when she became a character independent from Willow. The only season in which he felt somewhat done was S7 and that only because they sidelined most of the characters for a plot-(or more speech-)driven season.

 

They were planning a bigger storyline for Oz in season four though, the whole Veruca-Storyline was supposed to last longer and was cut short when Seth decided to quit the show. Meanwhile, Anthony Head mainly left to spend more time with his daughters in the UK and not because they didn't have anything interesting to do for Giles.

From Seth in a Q & A he did on Joss's site:

Quote

My character was conceived as a recurring character and by making me a regular, all of my time was dedicated to working on the show in scenes where my character seemed to be shoehorned into an inappropriate place so that I was regularly featured. I began having other opportunities and working on a show five days a week, 12-14 hours a day, in scene with 10 people, waiting for hours to say a line like "I think Buffy's right," precluded me from taking advantage of them. - Seth

 

As for Xander, nothing he did in the last few seasons strikes me as more than the writers coming up with something for him to do because he was around.

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I think NB's statement that Joss told him that Xander was done at the end of S4/5 is kind of ridiculous, because Xander still grew quite a lot in the later seasons of the show and while he didn't get any of the meaty storylines that Buffy, Willow or Spike would get, he was still a fairly important member of the Scoobie Gang and more prominent than Anya or Tara for example, who were underwritten for most of their time on the show. In season 5, he found his professional path and his relationship with Anya grew, in season 6 he had the whole failed wedding-storyline with Anya and saved the world. Compare that to Anya, who only received her own storyline towards the end of season six or to Tara, who they were writing out just when she became a character independent from Willow. The only season in which he felt somewhat done was S7 and that only because they sidelined most of the characters for a plot-(or more speech-)driven season.

 

They were planning a bigger storyline for Oz in season four though, the whole Veruca-Storyline was supposed to last longer and was cut short when Seth decided to quit the show. Meanwhile, Anthony Head mainly left to spend more time with his daughters in the UK and not because they didn't have anything interesting to do for Giles.

With ASH, Seth and Marc gone, at very least Xander provided a much needed male presence on the show. 

 

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Xander could literally be removed from the plot of most episodes in S5-7 without anything important having to be changed. And yes, so could some other regulars but so what, two wrongs don't make it right. In most episodes his most important role was to be the straight man for Anya's jokes.

And I disagree that he grew in those seasons. Xander of S2 would never have let Spike stick around unstaked, tried to marry a serial killer, failed to notice Buffy's depression or Willow's addiction/power trip for so long. He was merely ignored by Joss and company and that's why he wasn't character assassinated as badly as Buffy, Willow and Giles but growth this is not, IMO. Okay, he got a nice job but that happened largely off-screen and wasn't so much development as one moment Xander's struggles to find a job are super funny, the next his superiors praise him with nothing in between.

Thank goodness because the Veruca storyline was all kinds of stupid.

I rather liked the way things see-sawed for him. In season 4 he was the directionless screw up whilst everyone else was going great guns, in later seasons he becomes more the accomplished adult whilst Buffy and Willow fall apart. I liked the Verucca storyline but I don't think it would have worked in the long term, it lasted long enough. 

 

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

From Seth in a Q & A he did on Joss's site:

 

As for Xander, nothing he did in the last few seasons strikes me as more than the writers coming up with something for him to do because he was around.

But you could say that of any character?

[Halting Hex]

On 5/30/2018 at 5:33 AM, Dee said:

Xander was done, for better or for worse after "Kick His Ass."

 

On 5/30/2018 at 8:18 AM, Perfect Xero said:

With a certain segment of the fans? Maybe.

With the most powerful segment of the fanbase; the ones that Joss was so scared of pissing off that he announced Angel's return and pending spinoff on the night that Becoming, Part 2 aired.  Way to kill off the Acathla-driven suspense there, Joss.

On 5/31/2018 at 1:39 AM, nosleepforme said:

[The Ritual of Restoration] was also the first spell that Willow ever did

Not quite; there were the various disinvitation spells in Passion and the Magnus Tripod spell in I Only Have Eyes For You.  Mind you, Xander knows that Willow already failed with this very spell in Part I and that she's just freshly woken from a coma, so she might be unable to even try.  Or Protective Boyfriend Oz might call the whole thing off at the first hint of Willow going swoony-eyed.  (Xander knows from Oz's-Fist-on-Xander's-Jaw experience [in BB&B] how protective Oz can be.)

On 5/30/2018 at 4:05 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

As for the famous moment  it was a necessary sacrifice, much like Giles killing Ben or lying to her about why he needs the details of defeating Acathla or Wes lying to the Pylean rebels or Illyria pretending to Wes at the end

Actually, it seems pretty clear it's an "oh, shit!" moment on Xander's part.  He shows up to join Buffy, gets his instructions from her, starts to tell her Willow's message and then visibly catches himself and realizes that this isn't anything Buffy needs to hear right now, given that she's got enough on her plate. (And the spell is a long-shot, at best.)  No deep thought on either side of the "Aha, now I will have my revenge on Angel!/I am a general, making a battlefield decision" here; he's just guessing that he's better off holding his tongue. "Kick his ass" is just something he thought would seem appropriately Willow-y for a throwaway line, given that "How about those Knicks?" would have been rather a non sequitor at the moment.

On the "they should have cast Ryan Reynolds!" argument, Reynolds's contemporaneous work on Two Guys, A Girl, A Pizza Place, And Nathan Fillion Downstairs in no way augured anything superior to what they got from Nick.  RR was every bit the average actor in a standard sitcom there, showing no breakout potential whatsoever, IMO.  (I actually thought Richard Ruccuolo as Pete was superior to Ryan as Berg, to be honest.)  The fact that Reynolds slept his way to the "Deadpool" role (I assume Bryan Singer was still casting X-Men movies in his hot tub in '09, right? And it's not as if Ryan lacks bisexual rumors) six years after the show went off the air hardly means that this particular semi-talented Canadian would have "saved" Xander from oblivion.  But JMO

Edited June 15, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

But to be honest, I think Xander's function and screen presence in the show didn't fundamentally change from the highschool seasons to the later seasons. They were still writing material for him, he still got his focus-episodes, even if he didn't have an impressive character arc like Buffy, Willow or Spike.

It did change. Xander was practically the male lead for the first two seasons and the latter seasons he was for the mostly just there, doing nothing of importance. I am pretty sure he wasn't even present in Act IV of many episodes in S4-7 while he was very much present in Act IV and played an important role in the plot of each and every episode in S1-2. Sometimes more important role, sometimes less so, but he was never a glorified wallpaper. He saved Buffy's life in those seasons more times than the rest of the cast combined, of example.

Seasons 6 and 7 in general had a huge problem with supposedly main characters who appeared in every episode by virtue of the actors being in the opening credits but did for the most part doing practically nothing important. Xander, Dawn, Anya, even Willow in much of S7 (Tara too but the actress didn't even get to be be in the credits for more than an episode).

Edited June 15, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I can understand Seth's reason for quitting the show, but they were still planning bigger storylines for him for season four. And in the end, he still remained the sidekick throughout most of his career and didn't really have overly impressive roles, in which he could do a lot. But in the end, it was probably good that he left. It mixed things up and cleared the way for Tara to emerge, who was a much better fit with Willow. 

 

Particularly in season seven, where any characters other than Buffy and Spike were merely window dressing.

 

But to be honest, I think Xander's function and screen presence in the show didn't fundamentally change from the highschool seasons to the later seasons. They were still writing material for him, he still got his focus-episodes, even if he didn't have an impressive character arc like Buffy, Willow or Spike. If I define a character as being "done", them I think of characters where it is difficult to think of anything for them to do or a character like

 

(ANGEL SEASON 4 SPOILER INCOMING)

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Connor, where there really was nowhere to go with him, without resetting him to a new status quo.

 

 

But clearly they still got some mileage out of Xander.

Because Xander was never actively dislikeable which Connor was.

2 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It did change. Xander was practically the male lead for the first two seasons and the latter seasons he was for the mostly just there, doing nothing of importance. I am pretty sure he wasn't even present in Act IV of many episodes in S4-7 while he was very much present in Act IV and played an important role in the plot of each and every episode in S1-2. Sometimes more important role, sometimes less so, but he was never a glorified wallpaper. He saved Bufy's life in those seasons more times than the rest of the cast combined, of example.

Seasons 6 and 7 in general had a huge problem with supposedly main characters who appeared in every episode by virtue of the actors being in the opening credits but did for the most part doing practically nothing important. Xander, Dawn, Anya, even Willow in much of S7 (Tara too but the actress didn't even get to be be in the credits for more than an episode).

For the vast majority of season 6&7 Xander was the male lead as he was the only regular man on the show. 

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Clayne Crawford was acting under a different name back then.

Ah, that explains it.  I couldn't tell you what name it was, but I've seen the ep enough times that if it had been "Clayne Crawford" on the end credits, it would have rung a bell when he first started to make news for his FOX series.

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I heard that it was always intended for X/C to hook up, hence why the network nixed an African American CC as they were uncomfortable with an inter-racial romance.  

Really?  I thought that Bianca Lawson turned them down, not that the network said no to her.  Huh.

[Perfect Xero]

On 6/14/2018 at 10:09 PM, Halting Hex said:

 

With the most powerful segment of the fanbase; the ones that Joss was so scared of pissing off that he announced Angel's return and pending spinoff on the night that Becoming, Part 2 aired.  Way to kill off the Acathla-driven suspense there, Joss.

He was so worried about pissing them off that he ended BAngel with a storyline about how being in a relationship with him was bad for Buffy, and spun off Angel into being the lead in his own show.

 

Quote

On the "they should have cast Ryan Reynolds!" argument, Reynolds's contemporaneous work on Two Guys, A Girl, A Pizza Place, And Nathan Fillion Downstairs in no way augured anything superior to what they got from Nick.  RR was every bit the average actor in a standard sitcom there, showing no breakout potential whatsoever, IMO.  (I actually thought Richard Ruccuolo as Pete was superior to Ryan as Berg, to be honest.)  The fact that Reynolds slept his way to the "Deadpool" role (I assume Bryan Singer was still casting X-Men movies in his hot tub in '09, right? And it's not as if Ryan lacks bisexual rumors) six years after the show went off the air hardly means that this particular semi-talented Canadian would have "saved" Xander from oblivion.  But JMO

 

Reynolds got a lot of attention from the lead role in Van Wilder which was 01 or 02 and seemed to land a steady stream of leading movie roles afterwards.

And even if he does owe his film success to sleeping his way to the top, half the point is that he's an attractive guy with washboard abs, and that might well have changed how the writers and fans viewed the character.

Also, I just find the question of what a different actor would have brought to the part fascinating. I'd also like a look at an alternate universe where Riff Regan had been kept on as Willow instead of recast with AH.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Reynolds got a lot of attention from the lead role in Van Wilder which was 01 or 02 and seemed to land a steady stream of leading movie roles afterwards.

Eh, not so much.  He was in Blade:Trinity (2004), which was the end of that franchise, the bust remake of The Amityville Horror (2005) and the not-exactly-enormous mob actioner Smoking Aces (2006).  His biggest "success" in those years was the lead in the independent ensemble dramedy Waiting… (2005), about wait staff at an Applebee's-type restaurant, which might be fondly remembered by Vanessa Lengies's fanbase  (raises hand), but was hardly a box-office smash.

Really, for most of the decade, it was thought that Reynolds had made a mistake by skipping out on the Van Wilder sequel (which ended up starring BtVS-vet Kai Penn in his place) since the sequel flopped without Reynolds and he hadn't been able to find similar success elsewhere.  It wasn't until 2009, when Reynolds joined the X-Men franchise and got a ride on the Sandra Bullock train (costarring in The Proposal) that his stardom went to the next level.  Which he promptly squandered on Green Lantern, and only kept himself on the "A-list" by non-acting means.  (Media appearances, his personal life, etc.)  Deadpool (2016) was the first time in fourteen years that Reynolds had carried a successful film on his own.

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Did Reynolds actually have those washboard abs back then?

I find it hard to believe he has them even now; it looks like Photoshop to me.  Probably just cognitive dissonance, though; I remember Reynolds from his comic roles, not as a "hunk".  And yes, Nick Brendon was very good-looking for a time there.  They didn't keep Speedo!Xander in the credits for two seasons because they wanted to remind people of the cinematic masterpiece that was Go Fish, I wouldn't think.

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Julie Benz, Mercedes McNab and Katie Holmes all auditioned for Buffy.

As did Bianca Lawson, Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy) and Julia Lee (Chanterlillyanne).  Allegedly Katie Holmes actually got the part, but was dropped from the role because she was only 17 and thus subject to the "you can only work so many hours" restrictions on underage actors, and Buffy was in too many scenes for them to work around.  SMG, being 18, was the simpler solution, especially as she had already been cast as Cordelia.

And, not to bag on KH, but there was a Season 2 episode of Dawson's Creek where Dawson is making a movie about his and Joey's relationship and Rachael Leigh Cook is guest-starring as the actress he's hired to play "Joey"…and RLC does one of Joey's big monologues from Season 1 (the breakup speech from "Beauty Contest"), and she nails it notably better in the replay than Katie did on the original.  So perhaps not the best casting decision Joss ever made, before circumstances forced a correction/improvement.  Sarah was definitely a step up, I'd say.

[Halting Hex]

You can Google up "Bianca Lawson Cordelia" and get at least a half-dozen citations that say Bianca didn't take the part because she was contractually obligated to another show.  (IIRC, Marti Noxon says the same thing on the What's My Line? commentary.)  

Of course, the other story could be the truth and it just took a while for Joss/Mutant Enemy to be willing to call out the WB on their (alleged) racism…if all the cards landed on the table right away, there wouldn't be a need for the True Hollywood Story-style exposes, right?

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

There is a Buffy book out there that has in-depth interviews with people who worked on the show, The Unauthorized Oral History of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. George Snyder, an assistant to Joss in the first two seasons, said the following thing:

 

 

However, in the same book they also mention that Cordelia was never meant to be a part of the Scooby Gang, which is kind of the exact opposite of what they say here with shifting relationships.

I have that book, I must check it. 

 

11 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Well, both can be true. Even if Bianca was not available, he still could have cast a black actress in the role, but they went with Charisma. 

Interracial relationships however were also not that common on tv in the 90s, so I could see the network being nervous about breaking down that "barrier", interracial relationships IMO only started happening (on TV) once Grey's Anatomy was on. Before that, they were rare.

 

Hell, the network even said to Joss that 

  Hide contents

they had too much gay stuff already on "Dawson's Creek" and other WB shows as an explanation for why they did not want Tara and Willow to kiss in the body. Which is when Joss famously said that he was gonna clear out his office over this, which is how the network ultimately caved in after all.

 

so I totally buy that story.

I  never heard that one, seems a different world doesn't it?

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

That's not actually true. You're forgetting about James Masters, who was also a series regular and who does have a penis too.

 

Dislikeability doesn't mean a character is done though,

  Hide contents

Connor was done, because the character was running in circles and there was no way to properly integrate him into the Angel team without a reset. That's why the character, as we knew him, was done after season four, even if he was rebooted with a different personality in season five. Xander was not "done" the same way, he didn't really run in circles and he still contributed to the show. The fact that the loss of his eye was such a big deal showed how important he still was to the show at that time.

 

Did Reynolds actually have those washboard abs back then? I thought that was a more recent development in the 2000s. Anyway, Nick Brendon was also fairly handsome in the early years of the show, before he started having problems with alcohol and gained weight.

 

I also find it interesting to speculate how the show would have done, with a different cast. Julie Benz, Mercedes McNab and Katie Holmes all auditioned for Buffy. I'm glad Sarah got the role though, because I think she handled herself incredibly well in the face of instant fame. She was always very hard-working, responsible and handled herself with dignity and grace. When I look at other actors at that age, who achieved the same kind of fame, it's remarkable. 

 

It also would have been interesting what would have happened if Bianca Lawson had been cast as Cordelia. Would she have had the same development as a character as Charisma's Cordelia? Would she also have become a part of Angel? Would her presence on the show made the show cast more POC ?  Though I can't imagine Bianca Lawson with the same big grin on her face that Charisma had on her throughout the years.

 

Or would Riley have been a more popular character if Chris Kane had played him?

But Spike wasn't a Scooby, more of an 'associate'. 

Yeah, what if? What if SMG had taken Katie Holmes role on Dawson's Creek? At least she'd have been more Tom Cruise's size (as indeed she'd be with Christian Kane). 

 Forgive me but Bianca isn't nearly as beautiful as CC. Or statuesque. 

But frankly I don't think Riley would have worked whoever played him. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 10:03 AM, nosleepforme said:

Spike was still more of a leading man in the final two years than Xander. He had an insane amount of screen time and character development.

 

I'm happy she didn't. IMO, she is not such a good actress. She was perfect as the girl next door, Joey, on Dawson's Creek, but I can't imagine her as Buffy. She didn't have the range for it and she didn't look the part. The great thing about Sarah was that she could play different things, sexy bombshell, former highschool queen, weird underdog, determined leader. The only thing I can see Katie Holmes as is the shy girl next door / bookworm.

 

Different strokes for different people. Bianca is gorgeous. But I get what you mean, CC always looked like a woman who would end up on the Playboy (and she still could be on there, she looks great).

Well CC was in Playboy (as was Mercedes) and both were magnificent. Whilst I could see SMG on Dawsons I have a hard time picturing Katie Holmes kicking demon butt? 

[illdoc]

On 7/29/2018 at 7:21 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Personally I would still like to see Bander, it almost happens in the comics.

If you call sleeping with Buffy's sister Dawn "almost happening". I've read the comics---Bander was never even remotely close to happening. Wuffy (or is it Billow?) was closer to happening than Bander in the comics.

[Halting Hex]

It's "Wiffy", as in Wiffy-Dreamverse, the fanfic archive from back in the day.  Which sadly looks as though it's lost its hosting, and thus requires creative use of the Wayback Machine to access.  Sigh.

Spoilered only because a "negative" spoiler (Buffy and Willow never have sex, even though they are clearly in love) is just as much a spoiler as "Spike grinds down Buffy emotionally until they have empty and meaningless sex, then when she finally gets her head straight, he moves to a flat-out rape attempt, which turns her on so much she wants to take her 15-year-old virgin sister to him for 'protection' shortly thereafter", I guess.  And not spoiling the name of the non-canon 'ship would make its non-canon status implicit, I suppose.

[K42]

I ship Faith and Buffy. Faith is my favourite character. I feel like she has great chemistry with everyone. Good or bad.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 7:53 PM, illdoc said:

If you call sleeping with Buffy's sister Dawn "almost happening". I've read the comics---Bander was never even remotely close to happening. Wuffy (or is it Billow?) was closer to happening than Bander in the comics.

Nope, it was in the first few issues, Buffy feels hot to trot as she's missing Spike so lures/drags Xander to her boudoir. Unfortunately it turned out to be a dream sequence.   

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 8:17 PM, Halting Hex said:

It's "Wiffy", as in Wiffy-Dreamverse, the fanfic archive from back in the day.  Which sadly looks as though it's lost its hosting, and thus requires creative use of the Wayback Machine to access.  Sigh.

Spoilered only because a "negative" spoiler (Buffy and Willow never have sex, even though they are clearly in love) is just as much a spoiler as "Spike grinds down Buffy emotionally until they have empty and meaningless sex, then when she finally gets her head straight, he moves to a flat-out rape attempt, which turns her on so much she wants to take her 15-year-old virgin sister to him for 'protection' shortly thereafter", I guess.  And not spoiling the name of the non-canon 'ship would make its non-canon status implicit, I suppose.

Never saw that one, did like the dedicated Cillow site which pasted their faces on Xena and Gabrielle's bodies. Again, remember Spike can't hurt Dawn and she needs his help. And I think it did mean something to them both but it wasn't love, not yet. I think Buffy just needed someone at the time, Giles, Riley and Angel were gone, Willow and Xander were all loved up and Dawn was out of the question unless you're into some pretty extreme fetish fic. It's interesting to ponder what would have happened if Willow had been single before Spuffy? 

On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 11:43 AM, The Raw Category said:

I ship Faith and Buffy. Faith is my favourite character. I feel like she has great chemistry with everyone. Good or bad.

Absolutely, ED just electrifies the screen whether on Buffy or Angel. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. A time travel ep, SDH goes back through time, only Angel realises it (because it doesn't affect him as an immortal) and has to try to convince Yuppie Joyce, Hippie Snyder, Hipster Giles and Bobbysoxers Buffy, CC and Willow of what is happening. 

2. A Rosencrantz and Guildenstern ep where we see how the ordinary people of Sunnydale live on the Hellmouth including the SDPD, hospital staff etc 

3. We see the view from the other side, following the day of a group of demons/vampires in conflict with the Scoobs. 

4. A spell goes wrong transforming Angelus, Spike and Dru into heroes and the Scoobs into villains. Whilst Angelus seeks to set the world to rights Spike and Dru question whether they ever want to go back.

5. Dawn and Amanda, always thought there was something between them. 

5.

[Joe Hellandback]

Sticking with the series but ignoring the comics;

For me;

Buffy and Faith, made for one another

Willow and Xander, I know she identifies as gay but they're the Buffyverse's great love.

Dawn and Connor, wouldn't it be interesting to see their kids?

Spike and Dru; give her her soul back and lots of drugs

Angel? Giles? 

[Halting Hex]

Was this meant to be only for those alive as of Chosen/Home?  You didn't specify, and obviously that would make a difference.  Giles/Jenny is still #1, and any rule that takes Spike off of the board is fine by me…

Also, how much do we deal with sexuality issues?  I mean, even Buffy hasn't actually dipped in the lady-pool at this point.  Can I do my Wesley/Andrew (if ever anyone deserved to be locked in a closet and periodically have his bucket taken away…) 'ship, or not?  Just wondering.

Fun game; let me know your preferred rules.  And thanks.

[Loandbehold]

36 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Can I do my Wesley/Andrew

We've talked about this. Andrew and any intimation of sex is strictly verboten. There's only so many times I can scrub the image from my brain before there's nothing left.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Was this meant to be only for those alive as of Chosen/Home?  You didn't specify, and obviously that would make a difference.  Giles/Jenny is still #1, and any rule that takes Spike off of the board is fine by me…

Also, how much do we deal with sexuality issues?  I mean, even Buffy hasn't actually dipped in the lady-pool at this point.  Can I do my Wesley/Andrew (if ever anyone deserved to be locked in a closet and periodically have his bucket taken away…) 'ship, or not?  Just wondering.

Fun game; let me know your preferred rules.  And thanks.

Yes, only those alive at the end of Not Fade Away.

[Halting Hex]

Buffy/Willow.  Because, obviously.

Angel/Spike.  Canon as of Power Play, and if ever two piles of slime deserved each other, this is a perfect match.  I hope the dragon bites both their heads off.  If only they'd just run off together after School Hard, things would have been so much simpler.

Connor/Harmony.  Angel lets all his human "friends" die but spares this vacuous traitor and even gives her a recommendation?  Fine, I recommend that his precious Connor-wonnor ends up dead because of his stupidity.  Serves you right, Cave Brow.

Xander/Cordelia.  She's not actually "dead", the phone call at the end of You're Welcome was just TPTB's way of faking out Angel, since they knew the Big Jerk wasn't going to check to see if she really was dead or anything like that.  And this way they could send CC wherever without the guy running the globally-powerful evil law firm getting his enormous nose in the way.  Eventually comes home to Sunnydale and trades in the visions to restore Xander's vision, with Willow magicking his glass eye into a real one.

Giles/Ethan.  A man needs his Bottom Boi, let's face it.

Andrew/pretty much nobody.  Having received Cordelia's visions as a "gift" so he can lead a pack of Junior Slayers (including Rona) on missions in obscure places where nobody will ever have to see them again, he spends his days howling in pain from the visions, and his nights, when healthy enough, taking his charges out on very awkward dates where nothing ever happens.  But not because he's gayyyy…oh, never!

Oz/Nina.  Wolves gotta wolf.  Woof.

Faith/Kennedy.  Leathers gotta leather.  Rawr.

Robin/Dawn.  Wannabes wanna be.  Buffy really, really, really hates this but she can't do much, since Dawnie still knows how to screech.  Enjoy your exciting new obsession, Woody.

There you go.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy/Willow.  Because, obviously.

Angel/Spike.  Canon as of Power Play, and if ever two piles of slime deserved each other, this is a perfect match.  I hope the dragon bites both their heads off.  If only they'd just run off together after School Hard, things would have been so much simpler.

Connor/Harmony.  Angel lets all his human "friends" die but spares this vacuous traitor and even gives her a recommendation?  Fine, I recommend that his precious Connor-wonnor ends up dead because of his stupidity.  Serves you right, Cave Brow.

Xander/Cordelia.  She's not actually "dead", the phone call at the end of You're Welcome was just TPTB's way of faking out Angel, since they knew the Big Jerk wasn't going to check to see if she really was dead or anything like that.  And this way they could send CC wherever without the guy running the globally-powerful evil law firm getting his enormous nose in the way.  Eventually comes home to Sunnydale and trades in the visions to restore Xander's vision, with Willow magicking his glass eye into a real one.

Giles/Ethan.  A man needs his Bottom Boi, let's face it.

Andrew/pretty much nobody.  Having received Cordelia's visions as a "gift" so he can lead a pack of Junior Slayers (including Rona) on missions in obscure places where nobody will ever have to see them again, he spends his days howling in pain from the visions, and his nights, when healthy enough, taking his charges out on very awkward dates where nothing ever happens.  But not because he's gayyyy…oh, never!

Oz/Nina.  Wolves gotta wolf.  Woof.

Faith/Kennedy.  Leathers gotta leather.  Rawr.

Robin/Dawn.  Wannabes wanna be.  Buffy really, really, really hates this but she can't do much, since Dawnie still knows how to screech.  Enjoy your exciting new obsession, Woody.

There you go.

Oz/Nina would be interesting, I never considered Faith/Kennedy but they'd be well matched for one another.  

[Pallas]

2 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I never considered Faith/Kennedy but they'd be well matched for one another.  

And Faith's from Boston.

[Asanta]

 

What if Buffy The Vampire Slayer would have been a daytime soap oprea? With drama and comedy.Do you think it would have been successful? In your opinion how many years would it have lasted and what storylines could have been done?

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Asanta

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Asanta said:

What if Buffy The Vampire Slayer would have had 250-260 episodes a year instead of 22 episodes a year? In your opinion would it have become boring or been an even better show?

250-260 episodes a year? Please have some mercy on cast and crew... SMG, AH & NB looked pretty tired in the sixth season already (despite having to shoot "only" 22 eps a year, and not over two hundred). Quantity is opposite to quality most of the time - don't forget about that.

Besides, if Team Whedon continued to handle things the way they did throughout seasons 5-7, I doubt something good would have come out of it. I don't think the show's ratings, that had a tendency to drop significantly, would have allowed the banquet to go on, figuratively speaking...

4 hours ago, Asanta said:

How many years in your opinion would it have lasted?

As a fan, I'd like the show to run a little longer than just seven seasons, that's true. But due to it being screwed-up beyond repair long before the series finale was aired, I doubt it would have lasted for too many years even if Joss persuaded SMG, the network and God knows whom else to continue after season 7. Probably just one more season, I guess. Simply in order to have some sort of parity with Angel.  

[Asanta]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

250-260 episodes a year? Please have some mercy on cast and crew... SMG, AH & NB looked pretty tired in the sixth season already (despite having to shoot "only" 22 eps a year, and not over two hundred). Quantity is opposite to quality most of the time - don't forget about that.

Besides, if Team Whedon continued to handle things the way they did throughout seasons 5-7, I doubt something good would have come out of it. I don't think the show's ratings, that had a tendency to drop significantly, would have allowed the banquet to go on, figuratively speaking...

As a fan, I'd like the show to run a little longer than just seven seasons, that's true. But due to it being screwed-up beyond repair long before the series finale was aired, I doubt it would have lasted for too many years even if Joss persuaded SMG, the network and God knows whom else to continue after season 7. Probably just one more season, I guess. Simply in order to have some sort of parity with Angel.  

Let me rephrase the question.

What if Buffy The Vampire Slayer would have been a daytime soap oprea? With drama and comedy.Do you think it would have been successful? In your opinion how many years would it have lasted and what storylines could have been done? I hope I rephrased the question right.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Asanta

[Halting Hex]

It's an interesting idea, since soap opera was one of the elements Joss cited as his inspiration. (Like horror and fantasy and westerns and comics, he wanted to blend all the so-called "lesser" genres and create something new from the best of all of them.)  And a larger cast would allow for greater spotlight on more characters than just Buffy.

OTOH, some of the power of the show is that it is specifically about "one girl in all the world" and so a more diffuse focus might not work.  And it's been argued that the soap opera tone got too strong later years as it was; a production schedule that would make it difficult to regularly include new sets, choreographed fights, or special effects might lead to further imbalance.

But…it might not.  Producers always find ways to innovate.  Nobody thought you could do 87 episodes of a sitcom in a single season…but then Bruce Helford took the lessons he'd learned doing The Drew Carey Show and applied them to Anger Management, and voila!  They hit the magic 100-episode mark in record time, got that syndication $$, and Helford didn't have to spend 5 years of his life chained to Charlie Sheen.  Which was likely better for all involved.  So, you never know.

Something along these lines (maybe 3x/week?) might work well for the post-Chosen world, with hordes of newly-activated Slayers in various locations.  You could have one episode with one group, and another with a different one, and so on, and just intercut them.  Of course, you'd need really solid writing, but that's a necessity for any series.

Interesting question.  And, by the way, welcome!  We're always glad of fresh voices in here!  Hope you hang around. 😎

[lembergwatcher]

I'm into Buffy/Angel crossover soap opera. Plenty of storylines, plenty of drama, plenty of comedy.

Always wanted to see Buffy/Angel/Cordelia love triangle in action.

Generally, I'd be all for soap opera if the writers allowed Xillow and... what was the nickname for Gunn/Fred relationship (Gred or Frunn?) to grow into something seroius, long and stable.

That kind of daytime soap opera I would watch for twelve consecutive seasons probably.

[nightwing877]

Well, I guess we wouldn't need an Angel spin-off, they could simply have his stories in LA told on Buffy, just all on the same series. Also allows some blending in with crossovers. 

But love triangle's would be big too. 

Also, the Whirlwind might just be a big part of Season 5, and we might even have a big Angelus, Darla, Spike, Drusilla arc. 

I think you could blend Buffy/Angel stories into a season.

How many seasons could it go for, not sure maybe 7 or 8. 

But 250 episodes a year is crazy, maybe just twice a week, and I'll assume in soap opera style, one episode of regular buffy would equal a week of soap opera buffy episodes.

[lembergwatcher]

1. Pergamum Codex and its other "100% accurate" prophecies with regard to the Slayer;
2. Clan Kalderash, obsessed with vengeance for decades, not trying to avenge Enyos' and Janna's deaths;
3. Drusilla getting away with Kendra's murder;
4. Xander/Willow story considering the events in Becoming, Part 2 (the "fluke" was intended as a mere joke, not continuation of W/X Dawson/Joey-like moment);
5. Giles/Jenny and him trying to deal with the loss post-season 2. Sad thing, I don't remember Giles or anyone else from the gang even mentioning Jenny's name after the first half of season 3;
6. The aftermath of Giles taking human life (killing Ben);
7. W/X/A/T responsibility for unleashing The First and the mayhem that followed. We don't even know how exactly did Giles and Anya summarise what they've heard from Beljoxa's Eye in Showtime.
8. Xander dealing with the loss of his eye post-Dirty Girls.

I may remember something else with time.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:58 PM, Pallas said:

And Faith's from Boston.

My instinct says from very different parts. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

1. Pergamum Codex and its other "100% accurate" prophecies with regard to the Slayer;
2. Clan Kalderash, obsessed with vengeance for decades, not trying to avenge Enyos' and Janna's deaths;
3. Drusilla getting away with Kendra's murder;
4. Xander/Willow story considering the events in Becoming, Part 2 (the "fluke" was intended as a mere joke, not continuation of W/X Dawson/Joey-like moment);
5. Giles/Jenny and him trying to deal with the loss post-season 2. Sad thing, I don't remember Giles or anyone else from the gang even mentioning Jenny's name after the first half of season 3;
6. The aftermath of Giles taking human life (killing Ben);
7. W/X/A/T responsibility for unleashing The First and the mayhem that followed. We don't even know how exactly did Giles and Anya summarise what they've heard from Beljoxa's Eye in Showtime.
8. Xander dealing with the loss of his eye post-Dirty Girls.

I may remember something else with time.

Jenny's folks turning up would be interesting. Also would like a little more on Giles' feelings about Ben, More Dru of any kind would be good. 

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, JosePacheco said:

As for me, there are a lot of them. Just Angel received his own series. But it is only 1 hero of the film.

Loved the idea of a Faith and Ripper spinoffs, not sure the others would have worked. 

[akerso]

On her official Twitter channel, LaRue portrays the scenes with Gellar that she tenderly alludes to as gooey.

Tutuapp 9apps Showbox

Edited November 6, 2019 by akerso

[Joe Hellandback]

Here's one, we meet Mrs Gwendoline Post. Whatever happened to Mr Post? 

Maybe he was killed in the line of duty and she sought the glove to wreak revenge on the creatures who slew him?

[lembergwatcher]

On 11/29/2019 at 1:46 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Here's one, we meet Mrs Gwendoline Post. Whatever happened to Mr Post? 

Maybe he was killed in the line of duty and she sought the glove to wreak revenge on the creatures who slew him?

Well, that's an interesting suggestion. But why couldn't Mrs. Post ask Mr. Giles & the Scoobs for assistance in tracking down/eliminating the creatures?

Maybe Mr. Post met his demise at the hands of the things that go bump in the night. Or maybe he died from natural causes. Or Gwendoline herself killed him. Or what if they divorsed?