Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

And she's not done losing people.  Yet the Writers didn't even show Snow finding out that her beloved handmaiden Charlotte had died, much less mourn her.  The Count of Monte Cristo's death should have given Snowing pause, but no, the episode wasn't about them, not truly.  Snow also never found out that Rumple was behind Charlotte being poisoned.  Wouldn't that have given the random C Plot with Snow and Belle a little bit of edge, if Snow was angry about what Rumple did to Charlotte?  I know people dismiss her lack of screentime as what the actress probably wants to be with her baby, but they could use her in such better ways even if screentime had to be reduced.  

She could be used a lot better. A&E choses not too.

[YaddaYadda]

On 1/31/2017 at 9:20 PM, KAOS Agent said:

Let's not forget that they also heard the prophecy that Emma would save them all and went all in on the wardrobe idea without even bothering to try to stop Regina some other way. There was that time where Maleficent was like hey let's work to stop Regina and Snow got all self righteous and refused to work with her on the grounds that Snow was good and Maleficent was evil. Snow won't compromise herself to save her kingdom and her child. Nice sentiment, but highly selfish and some might argue immoral considering the cost to others just so that Snow can feel good about herself.

Snow sits in judgement of people way too much. She is a pretty selfish character when it comes right down to it. And the more flashbacks they give her, the more hateful she becomes. Maleficent was more concerned about saving her child and keeping her by her side than Snow was. I get that the curse was news to her, but still. David is 100% better when he is away from her and Snow is 100% dumbass.

On 2/1/2017 at 5:15 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I find it difficult resolving Snow's various personalities. Bandit Snow and Cursed Mary Margaret conflict with Queen Snow and Post-Curse Snow. I feel as though Bandit Snow or MM would kill to save a life, but the others would not. Bandit Snow was carrying around dust from the Black Fairy to squish Regina with, and MM kicked Jefferson out of a high window without remorse.

I just realized - Snow tried to shoot Cora through the heart in 2A without even flinching. Hook too.

The show's narrative changed completely sometime in season 2 when Henry became all about how heroes don't kill and went on his way to destroy magic by blowing up the well. During season 1 and parts of season 2, the heroes didn't have a problem doing what needed to be done. 

[Jul 68]

So, I fell down a YouTube rabbit hole and came across this vid from an OUaT fan who is actually analyzing the original Disney movie. The subject is What REALLY Saved Snow White. I  thought this group might find it interesting. Cute nod to the show about 2/3 in. No spoilers. I promise.

What REALLY Saved Snow White

[Mathius]

On 2/9/2017 at 10:45 AM, YaddaYadda said:

During season 1 and parts of season 2, the heroes didn't have a problem doing what needed to be done. 

Just recently in 6x10, it was portrayed as bad when wish!Henry almost killed Regina because it would be becoming "everything Emma didn't want him to be" (wait, if she wants him to be a heroic knight, then killing the woman who murdered his grandparents and was threatening his mother is exactly the behavior expected and wanted out of him!), and when Charming wanted to kill the EQ (with the EQ even referring to it as "darkness" - so where was this "darkness" when Charming killed that siren in S1, or literally snapped a guy's neck in 2A, or - even more recently - murdered Sir Percival? Oh, and Gabriel the Woodsman too, back when he was just a shepherd!  See, it makes no sense and is very blatantly the Regina Exception Clause at work.)

Edited February 13, 2017 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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I thought that was interesting, because Ginny seemed rather resigned to it and a bit detached, and then did not really show emotion until she had to put Charming back into a coma.  I think Ginny is capable and has done of some great acting, but I am not sure she has not checked out from the role a little bit.  Even when she did cry when she was going to re-curse Charming, it seemed more technical than heart-felt.

I think it's both Ginny phoning it in and where Snow's character has gone. For a while, Snow has robotically prioritized some version of "the greater good" and her own moral standing. She hasn't been a real person since 2A, and that was a very long time ago. Seasons of being lobotomized have left her as an empty shell. It's abundantly clear the writers have no idea what to do with her any more. In 5B, she was tired of being Mary Margaret and wanted to be "Snow White" again. Then in 6A, she wanted to go back to her Mary Margaret days as a teacher. It's as if they go through a different round of writers each season who just do their own thing. I think her wanting to be Snow White or a teacher are both valid, but no long-standing decision was made for the path she was supposed to choose.

Edited April 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 4/27/2017 at 4:02 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I think her wanting to be Snow White or a teacher are both valid, but no long-standing decision was made for the path she was supposed to choose.

And then she hasn't really been either. We had one episode about her struggling to teach, and we haven't seen her at school since then.

I think to a large extent, Snow has been Flanderized (caution, TV Tropes link). That's where a single trait gets emphasized and exaggerated over time until it becomes all the character is about, to a cartoonish extent. Season one Snow was optimistic, had hope, and was friends with birds, but she was also a badass, stood up for herself, and was willing to do what had to be done. She was even still that way in the present in 2A after the curse broke. But then starting in 2B, it seemed that all she was allowed to do was have hope. She wasn't allowed to stand up to anyone, wasn't able to make tough decisions. All she could do was insist on having hope. She's become that impossibly sweet and self-sacrificing Disney princess that season one seemed to be all about deconstructing.

When TV Tropes describes how this works, here's what it says under "kindness" as the trait being exaggerated:

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A Nice Guy but with human flaws becomes a Purity Sue.

Alternately, they become kind to a fault and evolve into an Extreme Doormat that is unable to be harsh whatsoever.

 

Sound like anyone we know?

[Camera One]

Yet they are inconsistent as hell when it comes to Snow's optimism.  One of the reasons she wanted to plan the wedding ASAP was because deep down, she was worried that Emma would die and never get to experience her wedding, or that she would die and she would never get to see Emma's wedding.  Time and time again, we've actually seen other characters show Snow that there is hope.  Except in the most dire and hopeless moments, they would have her perk up and say something ridiculous about how all they have to do is to have hope.  It has been six seasons, and it's impossible to figure out what this character even thinks, because it depends which direction the wind is coming from when the Writers are writing her.  As others have pointed out, it's clear as day the Writers couldn't care less with 5B's "I want to be Snow!" and then 6A's "I want to be Mary Margaret", and then 6B, they just have her sleep half the time.  If I were the actress, I would be so pissed off by this point.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Yet they are inconsistent as hell when it comes to Snow's optimism.  

That's what's weird. Most of the time, when she's a background character in a story, she's been Flanderized into the "hope" person. But then when she has more of a plot role, suddenly, she's the one who's all doom and gloom -- the eggbaby because she feared that her fetus would be a great villain if she didn't do a darkectomy, not able to believe in her ability to fight Regina without being tricked into it, worried that Emma will die before her wedding. That's what makes most of these retcons so retconny. They pull these stories out of nowhere in total contradiction to the way Snow is most of the time.

[KAOS Agent]

Oddly enough, Snow was the most negative in the Pilot and David was the one giving the hope speeches. Snow being all hopeful is the retcon. They were even consistent with her pessimism prior to the curse with the flashback in "Going Home"

Snow White: What if it fails? A magic wardrobe? It's a long-shot. We all know this, so, what do we do if this plan doesn't work? 
Blue Fairy: Then the Queen's curse will transport us to a new land. We will lose our memories and become slaves to her darkest desires. So, we have to have faith your child will find a way to save us.
...
Snow White: Then how can you be so sure? 
Blue Fairy: Because I have the one thing you now need more than ever. Hope. Good luck, Snow. Have faith. 
Snow White: (To Prince Charming) That's easy to say when you have magic wings and a wand. 
Prince Charming: What can we do but choose to believe her? 
Snow White:  This was supposed to be hers. We had such plans. 
Prince Charming: Listen to Blue. Have hope we can prevail. 
Snow White: This curse has destroyed every dream this family ever had. 
Prince Charming: We don't know what the future holds for us.
Snow White: How do you know it holds anything good?

[superloislane]

Someone on Tumblr created a jobs list for the characters to show what their job is in the narrative and Snow's job is to basically play the devil's advocate. She takes the opposing viewpoint to the character the focus is on in a scene which is the reason she's inconsistent with what she thinks even in the same episode. If Emma is the focus and she's pessimistic, Snow is hopeful. If David is hopeful, then Snow is negative and so on. When I read that and watched the show, I really started to see what they were talking about.

[Shanna Marie]

20 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Oddly enough, Snow was the most negative in the Pilot and David was the one giving the hope speeches. Snow being all hopeful is the retcon. They were even consistent with her pessimism prior to the curse with the flashback in "Going Home"

That would fit with her being a pessimist when she's driving the plot and the "hope" character when she's more of a background player. In the first season and a half, she was a nuanced character who might be described as a realist -- her pessimism came in the context of really awful stuff where it was reasonable to be pessimistic, but she was capable of having hope at times. When they quit writing for her, she was reduced to "hope!", but then she goes back to negativity when she's driving the plot. Instead of having layers or a varied reaction to different circumstances, she swings wildly back and forth.

[Camera One]

Do the Writers actually recognize this?  Do they care?  I mean, this is supposed to be one of the main characters.  

[Camera One]

From Ginnifer Goodwin's exit interview:

When you look back at your time playing Snow, is there anything in particular you’re proud of, a moment that will stick with you?

I’m most proud of taking the job in the first place. That pilot was so refreshing and inventive and not-done, which could have been a recipe for disaster. But I took the plunge and was rewarded immeasurably. And as for moments, everything about “Snow Falls,” in which the Charmings fell in love, will stick with me. And I won’t ever forget sitting on a Neverland log with Emma, who found herself by admitting to herself that she was a Lost Boy. I also won’t let go of the scene in which Regina first ripped out Mary Margaret’s heart and then put the thing back in again, all while standing at Regina’s front door.

So basically, Season 1, a bit of Season 2 and Season 3's "Lost Girl", the last time she and Emma got a really good scene together.  

[InsertWordHere]

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“Hey, let’s call Eddy and Adam to talk about where our very special arc is headed.” — Ginny

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In keeping with the aforementioned continuation-as-happy-ending, OF COURSE I (and we) will be back. It’s merely time for ONCE to focus on something new because ONCE does “new” extremely well.

Some of this has to be snark, right? I want it to be, so I'll choose to see it that way. 

Quote

How do you think Snow has changed over the years?
I think she let more and more of Mary Margaret in.

Woohoo, that's what we all wanted to see!

[Inquirer]

7 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Some of this has to be snark, right? I want it to be, so I'll choose to see it that way. 

It reads so much like snark (especially the "very special arc" part) that I'm almost sure it is.

I also think she doesn't care for Snow "letting more and more of Mary Margaret in", since she prefers badass bandit Snow.

Ginny is actually very good at this kind of subtle passive-aggressive criticism, she's done so in the past.

[KingOfHearts]

I never thought I'd say this, but I really miss Snow. Sure, she was a hypocritical liar who enabled Regina up to high heaven, but she gave the show its heart. She was traditionalist who kept it grounded in its core message and story. With all the twists and crazy shenanigans, Snow White was still Snow White for the most part. For all her flaws, she's still better than any of the new characters. (Who am I kidding? I prefer *all* the old main characters to what we have now. Even the ones I despised.)

Edited October 24, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Snowing were the heart of the Show. The writers made a huge mistake by changing the Show from being centered around them into a Regina/EQ villain apologia fest. St. Roni makes a piss poor substitute as the resident expert on Hope. 

[CCTC]

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Snowing were the heart of the Show

Really a large part of it should have been them and Emma and how they process coming together as a family.  Regina worked well in that mix when they had an uneasy truce because of Henry and they had to grudgingly work together.   Of the three female leads, Snow suffered the most over the series in being watered down, but really all three of them were written more strongly at the beginning of the series (with the exception of the Mary Margret persona being more of a push-over the beginning, but that made sense in the frame-work of the curse).  While the Charming family was underutilized, they still did produce much of the heart and sense of family.  

[Camera One]

I know a lot of us were disappointed in how they never had interest in developing the Snow/Emma relationship.  Even if they didn't want to deal with the conflict, they could still have given us some nice chats, but no.   Really, they actually had no interest in developing any other facet of her.  They never bothered exploring why she gave up her leadership position or her past of being born royal.  They never explored what she didn't like in herself to grow as a person.  They never bothered exploring her friendships (with people who didn't try to kill her).  They never even allowed her to properly respond to plot points that would have affected her.  She was just sort of there for the last 3.75 seasons.  

[tri4335]

I too miss Snow and her being the heart. Yes they should've explored her relationship with Emma and had her enabling Regina but more importantly is A & E underestimated how much Ginny's acting elevated Lana's.  The replacements are not working as the heart of the story - I could care less about Henry, Cinderella and Lucy. LP is basically holding her own but she's not knocking it out off the park because she is not acting against a strong talent.

[CCTC]

I know there are a lot of people who liked Emma and Regina playing off of each other and they had a number of fans (in a number of ways) - but I always felt there was more of a connection between Snow/Ginny and Regina/Lana.  Not that I wanted Snow Queen, but I thought they did give off the vibe of two people who had a long, complicated history.  While I did not think Snow and Regina should be good friends, due to their history, Snow's personality, I somewhat bought their scenes.  I think part of that was Ginny selling her scenes (until she checked out a bit more at the end).   They seemed like two people in an extended family, who might not exactly like each other, but over time developled a grudging respect and a somewhat dysfunctional friendship.

Whereas with Emma,  I always felt their friendship felt fake and forced and there was no real connection (except their initial relationship as adversaries -which was strong).     I could see them having a uneasy truce due to Henry, but never bought them hanging out for a girl's night.  That said, Lana has neither of her two acting foils to play off of, and while she is more likable, she is kind of just there.

That said, with everything Regina did to Snow, I don't think they should have been friends, I just found it more believable than the Emma - Regina friendship.

Edited October 25, 2017 by CCTC