S02.E11: Can You Take Me Back?

[shapeshifter]

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Changes within the police department land Hodiak back in hot water with Internal Affairs, which forces him to adjust to a neutered role in the precinct. Meanwhile, the Manson family's misfortune seems to take a turn for the better when Terry Melcher arrives and wants to record Charlie's music. 

[reggiejax]

They are really rushing to introduce the players involved in the murders. We saw this episode introduce us to Bobby Beausoliel and Gary Hinman. And it also brought back Mary Brunner. The only people we haven't seen are the LaBianca's, Shorty Shea and Leslie Van Houten. Though I may be wrong about the LaBianca's. I think they might have been shown in a flashback earlier this season. After their murders, that is. 

I have been hating the Karns all season, but I admit, there was something entertaining about seeing father and daughter hanging out with the Manson Family. But then Grace had to rear her head, and I remembered why I hope they fictionalize the murders a bit more and make it the Tate/Labianca/Karn murders. 

[shapeshifter]

I wonder if IRL Emma's 1960s level of shock treatments would have at least wiped out her adoration of Charlie.

There's a bit of parallel among all the females in this episode (Grace, Emma, Kristen, Charmain, the Manson girls, and even the addiction counselor), which seems to imply that to acheive goals, women —whether black or white, young or mature, high class or low — had to make a lot of compromises. Kristen seems to make the fewest compromises, but then, as a black woman, she had the least to lose.

[dubbel zout]

That feels right for the era; the woman's movement was just starting to gather steam, and of course, women of lower income and/or POC had the fewest opportunities anyway.

[dargosmydaddy]

After all the discussion here of people thinking Kristin would die, I was surprised the stray bullet didn't hit her. Only two episodes left; at this point I would put her chances of surviving above Shafe's.

[dubbel zout]

I could see Charmain get caught in the crossfire, as she's had some close calls.

[Margherita Erdman]

Where was Sadie's baby in this episode? Given the casual sex and equally casual attitude toward birth control, why wasn't there a mob of infants and small children in attendance on The Family?

I do love Hodiak and David Duchovny, but the brilliant-maverick-detective-who-breaks-all-the-rules-and-is-constantly-in-trouble-with-the-prissy-humorless-internal-affairs-officer thing is even more stale and annoying than the brilliant-maverick-detective-too-obsessed-with-his-work-to-commit-to-a-relationship thing.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Margherita Erdman
subject-verb agreement!

[Dowel Jones]

I was initially surprised at Hodiak's suppressed hatred and anger toward the Japanese-American prisoner, but then, on reflection, I could see that sentiment still burning in men of his generation, particularly since once again we were involved in an Asian war where racism was never far from the surface, if not overtly there in the first place. 

It's also rather scary that the plotline is almost laying the series of events at the feet of Terry Melcher and Dennis Wilson, as in "if they had only paid attention to Manson, none of this would have happened."  Of course, that's not even remotely true, but it just feels that way sometimes. 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

I was initially surprised at Hodiak's suppressed hatred and anger toward the Japanese-American prisoner, but then, on reflection, I could see that sentiment still burning in men of his generation, particularly since once again we were involved in an Asian war where racism was never far from the surface, if not overtly there in the first place. 

I thought what set Kodiak off was the perp calling the internment camps "concentration camps," and Hodiak's father had been in one during WWII. Hodiak wasn't belittling that guy's experience, but it wasn't comparable to what the Nazis were doing.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought what set Kodiak off was the perp calling the internment camps "concentration camps," and Hodiak's father had been in one during WWII. Hodiak wasn't belittling that guy's experience, but it wasn't comparable to what the Nazis were doing.

That's how I understood it too. The writers handled the subject with greater sensitivity nuance* than what I've seen elsewhere. Same with the Panthers. Too bad the show won't likely see another season.

*"nuanced" was the word I was trying to think of, @Margherita Erdman!

Edited September 6, 2016 by shapeshifter

[reggiejax]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought what set Kodiak off was the perp calling the internment camps "concentration camps," and Hodiak's father had been in one during WWII. Hodiak wasn't belittling that guy's experience, but it wasn't comparable to what the Nazis were doing.

Hodiak probably had relatives who were in concentration camps, but his father was not one of them. We saw his father in season one, played by the late RIchard Libertini (his last role, btw), and while we didn't get an in depth bio on the elder Hodiak, it was pretty clear that he lived his life in the States for most, if not all of his life. Also, he was portrayed as being a bit of a radical, one who supported what his grandson Walt was doing, and one who lamented the fact that his son Sam was so eager to go and fight the big one. Had Sam's dad been in a concentration camp, I find it highly unlikely he would have been against his son fighting in the WW2. 

[Margherita Erdman]

I'm pretty sure Hodiak said it was his grandfather who was in a Nazi death camp, but not whether it was on his mom's or dad's side. He seems to be Catholic, and Ukrainians were more likely to be rounded up and shot without deportation, buried in ditches and mass graves, so who knows what the back story is supposed to be.

I thought the Japanese internee — MP case was handled with nuance but not necessarily sensitivity. I like that Hodiak isn't portrayed as being too far ahead of his time or his own character development with regard to race relations or consciousness of issues like Japanese-American internment camps. Manzanar was no vacation for internees; not only were loyal American citizens deprived of liberty and due process but also their livelihoods, property, opportunities, reputations, and dignity. No, they weren't death camps, but illness and hunger were rampant, and most were dead before the need for reparations was even acknowledged, much less actual reparations authorized and disbursed.

To me it's apples and oranges — it's wrong to compare internment camps in the U.S. with Nazi death camps because the governments under which they existed and the intents behind them were totally different. Japanese-American internment remains a largely glossed-over but incredibly shameful chapter in recent American history during which we imprisoned our own citizens and violated not just their civil but their basic human rights solely because of their ethnic heritage. Given the rhetoric flying around in this election season, sort of makes you think of Santayana's most famous saying with a shiver, right?

Topic: I really liked the way the show portrayed the Hodiak-Bunky relationship, and I will miss that a lot, as I think the show got that exactly right, with Hodiak respecting Bunky's anger and his leadership both, and realizing that there are things about being black in America he will just never fully understand and shouldn't even try.

The W.E.B. DuBois moment, while almost perfect, fell flat at the end for me because while eloquent and in keeping with Kristin's character, I don't think that DuBois' fin de siècle radicalism jibes entirely with the Panthers of 1968 — i.e., I doubt that Bunchy would agree that his soul was torn between a patriotic American identity and a Negro identity shaped by oppression. The Panthers were much more closely aligned with the thinking of Malcolm X by then, rejecting American political identity in favor of a wholly Black identity. It is an important distinction, especially for the time — and equally important that we are no longer in a time when so many claim such polarized identities!

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Margherita Erdman said:

Hodiak respecting Bunky's anger and his leadership both, and realizing that there are things about being black in America he will just never fully understand and shouldn't even try.

I think that's one big reason things between the Shafes are breaking down; Brian thinks he does understand simply because he's married to a black woman. Kristin's increasing involvement with the Panthers, and the reaction to their activities, is showing him he doesn't understand, and it's making him very uncomfortable.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, Roy.  You made the ultimate mistake!  You allowed all of your hostages to be spread out, and turned your back on one of them.  Even if it was the guy who was currently ODing, you should have figured he might try something.  I'm glad it was Charmain who actually took him out though. Hopefully, she won't hold it against Shafe for setting her up, since I'm sure she knows it was because he had threatened his wife.  Besides, she seems more pissed off at Hodiak right now.  The IA guy helping her get back in the game is an interesting twist.

I do think the show is getting just a bit too close to making seem like had Terry and Dennis just let Charlie be a musician, things would have worked out better.  I have to think Charlie was already down this path, and would have down what he ends up doing no matter what.

Ken and Grace together always crack me up, since they're both so awful in their own way.

Case of the week that focused on the Japanese interment camps that happen during World War II.  I've noticed that TV seems to be addressing that a lot more now.  It's crazy to think that actually happened.

[helenamonster]

On 9/5/2016 at 6:11 AM, Margherita Erdman said:

Where was Sadie's baby in this episode? Given the casual sex and equally casual attitude toward birth control, why wasn't there a mob of infants and small children in attendance on The Family?

Manson believed very strongly that children did not belong to their parents, that parents projected their egos onto their children and that was what messed them up, so he had them raised in a sort of communal nursery, where they rarely had personal interactions with their own parents (when Linda Kasabian ran away after the murders, she left her daughter Tanya behind because there wasn't a way for her to grab her from the nursery without attracting suspicion). So actually, the whole Valentine subplot, of Manson being all "he's my son" rang a little bit false to me. Sure, I believe that he would want to get him away from CPS, given his own upbringing, but his personal proprietary nature of Valentine seemed to go against one of the key tenets of his philosophy (I use that word loosely, but idk what else to call it).

On 9/5/2016 at 2:40 PM, Dowel Jones said:

I was initially surprised at Hodiak's suppressed hatred and anger toward the Japanese-American prisoner, but then, on reflection, I could see that sentiment still burning in men of his generation, particularly since once again we were involved in an Asian war where racism was never far from the surface, if not overtly there in the first place. 

It's also rather scary that the plotline is almost laying the series of events at the feet of Terry Melcher and Dennis Wilson, as in "if they had only paid attention to Manson, none of this would have happened."  Of course, that's not even remotely true, but it just feels that way sometimes. 

Hodiak's anger at the Japanese suspect reminded me of the Mad Men episode where they're trying to do a deal with a Japanese company (I can't for the life of me remember which one, but I'm pretty sure it was a car manufacturer) and Roger can't even bother to pretend to be nice, due to his experiences in WWII. But there definitely was a lot of nuance to Hodiak's situation given his Jewish heritage. While I believe the Holocaust and the Japanese-American internment camps are incomparable in their awfulness, I could see how someone like Hodiak would resent the comparison.

I don't really interpret the show as trying to say "if Terry Melcher and Dennis Wilson had just played along and given Manson a record deal, everything would have been peachy," but mileages vary and I can kind of see it. But I think due to my own background knowledge of the case and how I look at it, I just see it more as the show presenting all of these different things that either had to happen or not happen for Manson to eventually do what he did. There was more to the murders than Manson's anger at the music industry, but I do still think that was a huge motivator. He chose Melcher's old house for a reason. He knew Melcher wasn't living there anymore, but he was still sending him a message.

I thought Claire Holt did a really great job in the moment where she realizes why Shafe called her to the house. At the time, she didn't know that it was to protect Kristen, and you could see her resentment at Shafe for luring her there to die. I'm glad she got to be the one to kill Roy. I can also understand why the whole incident was the last straw for Kristen.

The ending flashforward with Sharon Tate begging for the killers to cut her baby out is the reason why I hope none of these fuckers ever get parole, and why I didn't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for Susan Atkins when she wasn't granted compassionate release. Literally the most bottom-feeding garbage people.

[reggiejax]

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 11:55 AM, helenamonster said:

So actually, the whole Valentine subplot, of Manson being all "he's my son" rang a little bit false to me. Sure, I believe that he would want to get him away from CPS, given his own upbringing, but his personal proprietary nature of Valentine seemed to go against one of the key tenets of his philosophy (I use that word loosely, but idk what else to call it).

It is also possible that when he refers to Valentine as "my son", he isn't necessarily speaking in terms of his being the biological father of the boy, but rather in terms of his being the leader of the Family.

Although more likely is that Manson was completely full of shit and certainly would have had no qualms about not practicing what he preached. Certainly wasn't going to let the fact that he was going against his teachings stop him from blaming Mary Brunner, or any other Family member, if anything went wrong. The regular black eyes Mary Brunner and the other Manson women sported attest to that fact.

[txhorns79]

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I can also understand why the whole incident was the last straw for Kristen.

Gosh yes.  When your husband's drug habit nearly ends up getting both of you killed, that's pretty unforgivable.  I think it probably would take down even an otherwise stable relationship.   

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To me it's apples and oranges — it's wrong to compare internment camps in the U.S. with Nazi death camps because the governments under which they existed and the intents behind them were totally different.

 

I would agree they are not the same, but I can imagine why someone who was forced to be in one might not see, or may not care about, the difference. 

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Ken and Grace together always crack me up, since they're both so awful in their own way.

 

During the first season, I thought Emma was just kind of spoiled and lost.  Now I realize this is one of those situations where her issues really are just all her parents' fault. 

[Ailianna]

During the whole confrontation with Roy, all I wanted was for Kristen to live, and Charmaine to take him out.  So, wishes granted!

I do think that this show deals with the issues of its day, racism in a myriad of forms, sexism, parent/child relationships, drug use, war experiences, in a nuanced manner.  I think it doesn't present a lot of judgment, but rather shows different sides of the issues from different perspectives.  Where there is judgment, it comes from the characters and from the audience, but not, I think from the writers.

[helenamonster]

I totally agree, Ailianna. For all this show's faults, I've really admired how they've approached the many social issues of the '60s with nuance and diversity of perspective. Part of me wishes the show had been more about that with the Manson stuff being more background, perhaps as a sort of microcosm of all of those issues combined. Because the murders are very particular to the era in which they happened, and could be examined through the lens of a lot of overarching themes of the decade. Racism, sexism, the counterculture, the decline of the traditional Hollywood star system, the changing music landscape and the rise of pop and rock superstars, distrust in the government and other forms of authority...I also feel that, in a lot of ways, the '60s birthed the idea of conspiracy theories with Kennedy's assassination, and this case is a fertile breeding ground for that sort of nonsense.

[Milburn Stone]

On September 5, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Margherita Erdman said:

The Panthers were much more closely aligned with the thinking of Malcolm X by then, rejecting American political identity in favor of a wholly Black identity. It is an important distinction, especially for the time — and equally important that we are no longer in a time when so many claim such polarized identities!

Except that the whole "sitting down during the national anthem" thing has the possibility to usher us back to that time but quick.