Game of Marriage: Alliances

[Advance35]

I do consider Jon the head of House Stark now.  Sansa has influence but I think the current of the North will be decided by Jon Snow moving forward.

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Even as Lady of Winterfell, Sansa is subject to the decisions of her father, or brother, or uncle, regarding her marriage. Even the Queen Regent herself didn't get to choose her own husband legally. Cersei only got out of marriage to Loras by killing her fiance.

I don't think Jon would force Sansa into marriage lightly BUT if he felt it was necessary for food or men???????? I do think his priority is the White Walker threat.  If a region or Kingdom had a resource he needed, I think he would be reluctant to fight because of the potential loss of human life that could be put to better use.

[Ambrosefolly]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I'd have assumed the same, were it not that ownership of the castle is suddenly in doubt. If she owns the castle, I'd agree, but Ladies rarely actually own anything if they have any male relatives alive.

It depends on what his other marriage prospects are, and how much good they could do the world by reuniting. It's really not about having a big giant crush on each other, or fulfilling their emotional needs through marriage. It may not even be about family and faithfulness. It might be about being able to refuse Baelish, on Sansa's end, and being able to refuse someone else, on Tyrion's end. He may invoke his marriage to Sansa as a way to decline Danaerys marrying him to Olenna or Ellaria or some other bizarre prospect (as is her right as his queen), without offending. Sansa might back him up on it because the best way to refuse Baelish would be to already have a husband.

 

This actually reminds me that Baelish needs no one's permission to marry Sansa: not even Sansa's. Baelish is her uncle by marriage and entitled to arrange her marriage again, just as he did once before. Even as Lady of Winterfell, Sansa is subject to the decisions of her father, or brother, or uncle, regarding her marriage. Even the Queen Regent herself didn't get to choose her own husband legally. Cersei only got out of marriage to Loras by killing her fiance.

No longer. Jon is the King of the North and head of House Stark, plus her older half brother. Technically, he now gets to decide who Sansa marries, and I seriously doubt he would force her to marry anyone else she doesn't want to marry and/or sucks as a human being (see:Joffrey).

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

It depends on what his other marriage prospects are, and how much good they could do the world by reuniting. It's really not about having a big giant crush on each other, or fulfilling their emotional needs through marriage. It may not even be about family and faithfulness. It might be about being able to refuse Baelish, on Sansa's end, and being able to refuse someone else, on Tyrion's end. He may invoke his marriage to Sansa as a way to decline Danaerys marrying him to Olenna or Ellaria or some other bizarre prospect (as is her right as his queen), without offending. Sansa might back him up on it because the best way to refuse Baelish would be to already have a husband.

This actually reminds me that Baelish needs no one's permission to marry Sansa: not even Sansa's. Baelish is her uncle by marriage and entitled to arrange her marriage again, just as he did once before. Even as Lady of Winterfell, Sansa is subject to the decisions of her father, or brother, or uncle, regarding her marriage. Even the Queen Regent herself didn't get to choose her own husband legally. Cersei only got out of marriage to Loras by killing her fiance.

Baelish has no legal authority over Sansa to force her to marry him as far as I'm aware, and even if he did, Sansa would likely laugh in his face, tell him to get bent, and have him escorted out of Winterfell. She needs no reason to refuse Baelish other than "I don't want to marry you," just as she needed no reason in 6x05 to tell him to fuck off other than "I never want to see you again." She is not under his thumb the way Cersei was under Tywin's. Sansa kicked him out of her life in 6x05, and she would happily do it again if needed, I think. Besides, if Baelish wanted to strongarm Sansa into marrying him, I suspect he would have done it a long time ago. He doesn't want to force her, I don't think. He wants a partner in crime who truly cares for him. Forcing her would be missing the point, I think. Otherwise, he wouldn't be investing so much in winning her back and getting back in her good graces.

I don't see any scenario where Daenerys would try to marry Tyrion off. First of all, I doubt she would have any more luck in that department than Tywin apparently did; an offer of Tyrion as a groom was seen as an insult, and Dany doesn't want to get off on the wrong foot by insulting potential allies. Second of all, she is intimately familiar with the "joys" of being ordered into marriage and being unable to refuse. She came to love Drogo, but she never forgot how it felt to be sold into marriage for someone else's political gain. I think Dany would think long and hard before forcing someone to marry against his or her wishes, much less someone she seems to care for as a friend.

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I do consider Jon the head of House Stark now.  Sansa has influence but I think the current of the North will be decided by Jon Snow moving forward.

I don't think Jon would force Sansa into marriage lightly BUT if he felt it was necessary for food or men???????? I do think his priority is the White Walker threat.  If a region or Kingdom had a resource he needed, I think he would be reluctant to fight because of the potential loss of human life that could be put to better use.

If Sansa didn't have a previous marriage to a sadistic rapist under her belt and was a virginal, never-married young woman disinclined to make a politically advantageous match to a decent if plain or uncultured sort of man because she was holding out for someone strikingly handsome or taller or whatever, I could see Jon getting tough with her the way the Blackfish Robb and Cat got tough with Edmure when he hemmed and hawed about marrying a potentially ugly Frey girl. As it is, though, Jon would never force Sansa to marry someone she didn't want to marry. He knew that she would rather die than go back to Ramsay, and she informed him she'd commit suicide rather than go back. Handing her over to someone else to be raped--since I'm guessing Sansa won't be interested in sex for a very long time--and risking her possible suicide, no matter the urgency requiring that marriage, is something Tywin would do, not Jon.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[Luckylyn]

Because this is a patriarchal society Sansa does not have much power on her own.  Her good position now is because of Jon.  She is forced to depend on male relatives for her position.  The Northern Lords were not clamoring to save her from the Ramsey's and put her in her rightful place at Winterfell.  What happens to Sansa should something happen to Jon and/or Bran?  Sansa needs to support Jon for her own self interest and also needs to carve out a place for herself to fall back on should Jon perish because without Jon she's at risk to being someone else's pawn.  The right marriage could give Sansa some security in the event Jon does not survive the battle with the White Walkers.  

Also, they don't know that Bran's alive.   What happens to Jon's support from the Northern Lords when Bran returns?  Jon rising to King is different from Robb in that Robb's rise was based on his Stark heritage alone.  Meanwhile Jon being of the Stark bloodline was significant but that alone was not enough to gain support.  Jon's King because he earned it on the battlefield as far as the Lords are concerned.  Both Sansa and Littlefinger were snubbed by the Norther Lords in Jon's favor.  Jon did not orchestrate that and in fact he made it clear to Sansa their victory was because of her and Jon included the Vale in his speech to the Lords.   Still Jon benefits from being favored over Sansa and Littlefinger. 

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Because this is a patriarchal society Sansa does not have much power on her own.  Her good position now is because of Jon.  She is forced to depend on male relatives for her position.  The Northern Lords were not clamoring to save her from the Ramsey's and put her in her rightful place at Winterfell.  What happens to Sansa should something happen to Jon and/or Bran?  Sansa needs to support Jon for her own self interest and also needs to carve out a place for herself to fall back on should Jon perish because without Jon she's at risk to being someone else's pawn.  The right marriage could give Sansa some security in the event Jon does not survive the battle with the White Walkers.  

Also, they don't know that Bran's alive.   What happens to Jon's support from the Northern Lords when Bran returns?  Jon rising to King is different from Robb in that Robb's rise was based on his Stark heritage alone.  Meanwhile Jon being of the Stark bloodline was significant but that alone was not enough to gain support.  Jon's King because he earned it on the battlefield as far as the Lords are concerned.  Both Sansa and Littlefinger were snubbed by the Norther Lords in Jon's favor.  Jon did not orchestrate that and in fact he made it clear to Sansa their victory was because of her and Jon included the Vale in his speech to the Lords.   Still Jon benefits from being favored over Sansa and Littlefinger. 

Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. (KITN appears to be a separate title.) Her position in of itself is no flimsier than Lyanna Mormont's, Lady of Bear Island. Still, it is true that Bran's return would likely complicate things and leave Sansa without that title.

If Sansa decides she wants power and realizes that she will always be subordinate to Jon in the North and that the Northern armies are loyal to Jon and not her, she may decide to carve out a path in the Riverlands (if Edmure dies) where she does have a claim in her own right and get the Tully army under her control. She might also seek out the Vale, where the reception she got from the Vale lords and ladies was much warmer. I could also see Sansa writing off the North as a power base when Bran's back in the picture. Whatever she does try to accomplish, I think she'll try to do it without marrying.

[Luckylyn]

50 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. (KITN appears to be a separate title.) Her position in of itself is no flimsier than Lyanna Mormont's, Lady of Bear Island. Still, it is true that Bran's return would likely complicate things and leave Sansa without that title.

If Sansa decides she wants power and realizes that she will always be subordinate to Jon in the North and that the Northern armies are loyal to Jon and not her, she may decide to carve out a path in the Riverlands (if Edmure dies) where she does have a claim in her own right and get the Tully army under her control. She might also seek out the Vale, where the reception she got from the Vale lords and ladies was much warmer. I could also see Sansa writing off the North as a power base when Bran's back in the picture. Whatever she does try to accomplish, I think she'll try to do it without marrying.

I hope Sansa does manage to find a path to power that does not require marriage but her options are dependent on what happens next.  Edmure is not strong enough to hold the Riverlands and with the Frey's diminished with the male heirs murdered power is up for grabs in that region.  Cersei's probably going to try to hold on to it but the finanical issues and the demolishing of her alliance with the Tyrells mean she's strained for resources.   Sansa may try to gain control since she has a claim as a Tully, but she needs an army for that.   Jon is focused on the White Walker threat and isn't likely to devote any resources to gaining control of the Riverlands unless it serves his cause.  Littlefinger will probably try to secure that region for himself, and he has the resources to manage it.  Sansa's going to have to deal with Littlefinger either as an ally or enemy.  Sansa needs to find a path to power for her own security so she is not so dependent on those around her and that means she needs funds and an army.  How does she gain that?

It would be fantastic if Sansa could gain a position like Lady Mormont as head of her own house.  Still, Sansa's situation differs from Lady Mormont.  Multiple houses view marrying into the Stark house as a path to power in the North.   Marrying into the Mormont house is not considered as critical strategically as marrying into the Stark family.  That puts extra pressure on Sansa as a target.  If Sansa's married, she has a barrier against ambitious suitors like Littlefinger.    If Sansa were to marry again, now would be the best time for her to make the choice because Jon will leave it up to her and because he's at the height of power giving Sansa options in who she would choose.  If Jon loses power or dies than Sansa's choices become very limited.   Who Jon marries is also very critical for him strategically and can have a positive or negative consequence for Sansa.  Wouldn't Jon's wife become Queen and therefore the Lady of Winterfell since the Lords have legitimized him?  Then there's Bran the impact his return to Winterfell could have on Jon and Sansa's positions.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Luckylyn

[Eyes High]

57 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I hope Sansa does manage to find a path to power that does not require marriage but her options are dependent on what happens next.  Edmure is not strong enough to hold the Riverlands and with the Frey's diminished with the male heirs murdered power is up for grabs in that region.  Cersei's probably going to try to hold on to it but the finanical issues and the demolishing of her alliance with the Tyrells mean she's be strained for resources.   Sansa may try to gain control since she has a claim as a Tully, but she needs an army for that.  

She could get LF to persuade Robin to use the Knights of the Vale to liberate the Riverlands. Robin agreed that he had a responsibility to help his cousin, so he would probably agree that he has a responsibility to help his uncle. I'm not sure what will happen to Edmure and his son after Walder and the death of his two sons. The writers did let us know that Edmure is alive and that he has a living male heir, so I'm guessing he'll figure into the Riverlands storyline somehow. Of course, liberating the Riverlands doesn't help Sansa obtain power in her own right if Edmure is alive and has a living heir, although I wouldn't put it past LF to arrange for Edmure and his son to meet with a little "accident" (without Sansa's knowledge). It will be interesting to see how that plays out if that's where she goes next.

If Sansa essentially takes her ball and goes home by packing up the Knights of the Vale--a powerful army unscathed by the BOTB--to go retake the Riverlands, Jon is not going to be pleased. Now that LF's warning about Sansa needing an army of her own has proven wise--as the Northern lords have made it very clear they don't give a fuck about Sansa and view her as an honourary Bolton (or Lannister, whatever)--she will probably take steps to ensure that the Knights of the Vale are taking orders from her--through Robin, but coming from her--and not Jon. If that means depriving Jon of an army that he could use against the WW when he needs it the most, so be it.

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That puts extra pressure on Sansa as a target. 

She's under no more pressure than Lysa was, and Lysa not only didn't remarry after Jon Arryn's death until she was good and ready, she married someone of her choosing. That didn't work out that well, of course, but she was not bullied or pressured into marrying. If you take the one season = one year timeline that the production informally uses, Lysa remained a widow for about four years before remarrying.

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If Sansa's married, she has a barrier against ambitious suitors like Littlefinger.

Sansa has a barrier and it's two words long: "Fuck off." All Sansa needs to do to get rid of LF is to tell him to fuck off. He respected that in 6x05 and only came to her aid because she asked him. As for other ambitious suitors, she would give them the same treatment and get tough with them if they didn't respect her refusal.

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If Sansa were to marry again, now would be the best time for her to make the choice because Jon will leave it up to her and because he's at the height of power giving Sansa options in who she would choose. If Jon loses power or dies than Sansa's choices become very limited.  

If Jon dies or loses power, Sansa would likely take his place and become Queen in the North, thus resolving the matter. However, assuming you're right and that Sansa is theoretically at risk of being forced by someone to remarry if he dies, it can't happen automatically; there has to be a someone who will force her. Who is this person? There aren't many potential contenders. Littlefinger couldn't, and nor would he want to, I think, and nor would Robin as long as he's taking LF's orders. Cersei would give Sansa the Septa Unella treatment. Dany would never force a young rape victim to remarry, and she would take a dim view of anyone who attempted to do so. The Sand Snakes have no interest in the North and no young men they would put forward. Olenna has no young men to whom to marry Sansa, now that Loras is dead, and even if she made the offer she couldn't force Sansa to agree if she didn't want to. Theon would discourage Yara from twisting Sansa's arm. Edmure is in no position to force anyone to do anything. I guess Euron could try to twist her arm, but Sansa's probably safe from the Ironborn as long as she's landbound.

In general, this argument seems to presuppose that Sansa needs to be married just to be married. That wasn't true of Lysa. Heck, it wasn't true of Sansa when she married Ramsay. She married him for a specific reason as part of a plan. The plan was dumb, true, but she didn't marry him because she needed to marry someone and it might as well be him.

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Who Jon marries is also very critical for him strategically and can have a positive or negative consequence for Sansa.

I don't think Jon is even thinking of marriage at this point. He's got shit to do, and he spent a good chunk of his young life (five years going by one year = one GOT season) believing he'd never be able to marry. If marriage to Dany is the way to obtain Dany's aid against the WW, which is where this all seems to be going, I think he'll suck it up and pull a lot of amusingly tortured expressions over the terrible tragedy of having to marry a supremely beautiful and powerful woman to save Westeros.

Going back to Tyrion, I thought it was interesting that his vision of postwar paradise--the vineyard--did not include a wife or even joking references to women: just having friends with whom he could share his specialty wine. It was a pretty modest dream, but it also suggested to me that he's given up on foolish dreams of romance. His lack of interest in sleeping with the prostitute in Season 5--and his apparent celibacy since Season 4--suggest to me that even if he falls in love with Dany, he's put all thought of romantic fulfillment aside, quite possibly forever. It seems that whatever happened with Shae may have killed all enthusiasm for such things. If and when Sansa and Tyrion do reunite, I expect it to go something like this:

Sansa: ...

Tyrion: ...

Sansa: We're not married anymore.

Tyrion (great sigh of relief): Oh, thank God!

Edited July 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[Chris24601]

20 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Multiple houses view marrying into the Stark house as a path to power in the North.   Marrying into the Mormont house is not considered as critical strategically as marrying into the Stark family.  That puts extra pressure on Sansa as a target.  If Sansa's married, she has a barrier against ambitious suitors like Littlefinger.    If Sansa were to marry again, now would be the best time for her to make the choice because Jon will leave it up to her and because he's at the height of power giving Sansa options in who she would choose.  If Jon loses power or dies than Sansa's choices become very limited.   Who Jon marries is also very critical for him strategically and can have a positive or negative consequence for Sansa.  Wouldn't Jon's wife become Queen and therefore the Lady of Winterfell since the Lords have legitimized him?  Then there's Bran the impact his return to Winterfell could have on Jon and Sansa's positions.

Which again is why I suspect that Jon/Sansa is still a strong contender. It protects Sansa from more dubious marriage prospects who might just want to marry her for her titles/lands and from potentially losing them to whomever Jon marries. It protects Jon if his true heritage comes out by wedding him into the rightful line of heirs to Winterfell/King in the North (i.e. Ned's line until its exhaustion). It protects the North from future conflicts between Jon's line and the lines of the other Stark children who normally would have preceded him in the line of succession.

It wouldn't even have to be a Stark directly. As Littlefinger shows, it could just as easily be a lord who marries into the line and then tries to seize power 'for the sake of his wife' who has a stronger claim than the descendant of the 'bastard nephew of the last true king'.

Dramatically I think it works precisely because its not the perfect ending, but one that will look a whole lot better than any of alternatives and one that has the potential to grow into something more. I think the security (including shutting out Littlefinger) and familiarity angles will beat out the potential political advantages of riskier matches and the lack of romantic love (at this point I think our PTSD survivors would take quiet familial affection over burning passion and longing any day).

[Luckylyn]

Asking for help from Littlefinger puts Sansa in a position to be dependent on him.  He's self interested and ruthlessly manipulative.  This is a man who framed her for Joffery's murder to force her to be dependent on him to escape King's Landing and handed her over to a rapist.  Sansa can't rely on him too much despite the fact that he desires her because he is willing to do harm to her if it benefits him.  Asking him for help against the Boltons for the Battle of the Bastards may be considered Littlefinger paying Sansa the debt he owes her for marrying her off to Ramsey but any requests for help from Littlefinger after that may lead Littlefinger to demand something in return.  The Vale army may be useful to Sansa, but Littlefinger may demand a high price for her to have access to them again.  Robyn's army is under Littlefinger's control.  The second Robyn does anything that makes Littlefinger thinks he's going to assert control of the Vale will probably lead Littlefinger to eliminate Robyn.  Sansa needs a path to power that will get her around Littlefinger's manipulations and ambitions.  She can't just tell Littlefinger to "Fuck off!" She has to handle Littlefinger the right way.  He has more resources than Sansa and is cutthroat in how he uses them.   He wants to be King of the North and from there eventually King of all of Westeros.  He may want Sansa but power is what he desires more.  Anything he perceives as a threat to his goals he will try to eliminate.  He can do serious damage to Sansa and her family and after all she's experienced she knows that.  That's why a marriage to Robyn that pushes Littlefinger out of power of the Vale and places it in Sansa's hands since Robyn is not fit to lead may be one path for her to take.  Still that's a risky path because Littlefinger would resist anything that takes control of the Vale away from him.  Frankly anything with Littlefinger is risky regardless of if he is an ally or enemy because his only loyalty is to himself, and he feels no remorse for harming others in the way of his ambition.

Lysa and Sansa's situations are different because Lysa had command of her own men.  A woman with her own army can't be forced into marriage.  Sansa has no soldiers under her control other than Brienne.   The army of Winterfell is Jon's.  She does not command them.     The Northern Lords armies are pledged to Jon. What army does Sansa have without Jon's support?    Sansa needs her own force that is hers to command to be independent from people like Littlefinger in the event that Jon loses power. 

Sansa has spent years as a pawn.  She now is in a place where she has some control but it may not last.   Sansa being Lady of Winterfell is precarious because Jon and Bran may marry and then their wives could attain that position.  Also Jon and/or Bran could die.  In that event could Sansa take control of Winterfell like Lady Mormont has of her own house or would vultures like Littlefinger try to push Sansa into a marriage against her will?  It all depends on what forces Sansa can get under her control.  I don't know if Edmure would be useful for that but that is a possibility with the Frey's weakened.

[Luckylyn]

I can see how a Jon/Sansa marriage could help secure their positions.  Sansa would be able to maintain position as Lady of Winterfell.   The discovery about Jon's parentage and Bran's return could cause Jon problems maintaining the support of the Northern Lords and so marriage to Sansa would further cement his position.  But it is possible the the respect he's won from the North on the battlefield and being Ned's nephew is enough on it's own to help Jon stay in power.  I think Jon may need a Southern wife to give him power beyond to North.  The South would be a critical ally for supplies in the battle with the White Walkers and Jon having a strong position in the South may block Cersei from being able to go after him. 

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Which again is why I suspect that Jon/Sansa is still a strong contender. It protects Sansa from more dubious marriage prospects

The assumption that Sansa needs to be "protected" from an unwanted marriage is mistaken, since it presupposes that Sansa cannot protect herself with a simple refusal, or that Jon--or Dany, in the event of Jon's death--would not protect her. Sansa does not need to remarry to "protect" herself. All she needs is "Fuck off." I pity the fool who tries to petition the KITN to hand over his rape victim little sister to be raped. That would not go well for him.

Dubious marriage prospect: My lady, I was wondering if we might discuss the matter of marri--

Sansa: Fuck off.

Dubious marriage prospect: Your Grace, if I might have a word concerning Lady Sa--

Jon: Fuck off.

Boom.

Sansa has also realized that she never has to enter into a marriage she doesn't want, since she can commit suicide to get out of it. She told Jon on the eve of the BOTB, "If Ramsay wins, I'm not going back there, do you understand me?" And Jon knows this, too.

28 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Lysa and Sansa's situations are different because Lysa had command of her own men.  A woman with her own army can't be forced into marriage. Sansa needs her own force that is hers to command to be independent from people like Littlefinger in the event that Jon loses power. 

How can Sansa be forced into marriage? Who's going to force her? Jon? Dany? Cersei? The Night King? None of these people have or would have any interest in forcing Sansa to marry, albeit for different reasons. There's no one on the Westeros board with an interest or the means to force Sansa to remarry. Even LF has no interest in forcing Sansa; if that's what he wanted, he would have bullied or manipulated her into it long ago. Sansa doesn't need an army of her own to get out of marriage. All she needs is an absence of people who have the motivation to force her.

Worst comes to worst, Sansa will kill herself rather than be remarried by force. She threatened Jon that she would do that rather than go back to Ramsay. Sansa's not doing that shit again. If she marries again, my expectation it will be because she wants to and for no other reason whatsoever. Two shitty, traumatizing political marriages are more than enough for one lifetime.

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Frankly anything with Littlefinger is risky regardless of if he is an ally or enemy because his only loyalty is to himself, and he feels no remorse for harming others in the way of his ambition.

LF seemed to feel remorse over what happened to Sansa. At least that's how the actor played it. He doesn't give a shit about anyone else, I agree, but Sansa is different.

Sansa also has considerable leverage over LF. He is in love with Sansa, and Sansa knows it, and Sansa knows that he murdered Lysa. The Vale lords and ladies only spared LF on Sansa's say-so. If she comes back to the Vale with a tale of LF's dirty dealings, Yohn Royce would come down on LF like a ton of bricks. Sansa only sits on that information for the same reason she concealed information from Jon about LF: she believes on some level that LF is still useful, and, to the extent that he saved her from Ramsay by bringing her an army, she's not wrong. LF is a great risk, but Sansa knew that since Season 4 and she decided to live with the risk. In light of his rescuing the Starks, she appears to have made the decision to continue living with that risk. LF's big selling point is his big drawback: he only cares about the two of them. Jon cares about Sansa, but he also cares about the Northerners, Bran, the wildlings, the brothers of the NW who remained loyal to him, etc. etc. LF cares about himself and Sansa, and nothing and no one else. That is likely attractive to Sansa, who's probably feeling very snubbed and overlooked in light of the Northerners cheerfully acclaiming Jon as KITN when she's sitting right here.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[bunnyblue]

The only marriage I see happening in S7 is between up-a-creek-Cersei and on-to-plan-B-Euron. I can imagine them being delusional enough to believe that together they can stop the Dragon Queen and then rule Westeros. The crazy would be off the charts hilarious and terrifying, but it would also serve the purpose of occupying much of Dany's time in S7 before moving on to the North in S8. 

If Sansa does break bad, the only person I envision she'd marry is Robin Arryn in order to take control of the Vale lords and knights so she & LF can then try to take the North from Jon. But I don't think D&D have the balls to make her so power hunger that she'd go up against the show's hero. Otherwise, I don't think another marriage is in her near future, if ever.

As for the marriage alliance Dany spoke of, the show is guilty of telegraphing a lot of stuff ("he always comes back") that I consider this one of those instances. I LMAO at the 'coincidence' that in the very episode Dany mentions a necessary marriage to a Westerosi man, Jon becomes ruler of the region that is hardest to control. Now I don't think any marriage between those 2 would occur in S7, but if they both survive the War for the Dawn, I can see them marrying in order to unite the North and South, and so that Jon's heirs and Dany's heirs don't destroy the kingdom years later fighting over who has the rightful claim to the Iron Throne. Or Jon could just die and all the thinly disguised shipping wars would be all for naught. 

[Advance35]

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The Vale lords and ladies only spared LF on Sansa's say-so. If she comes back to the Vale with a tale of LF's dirty dealings, Yohn Royce would come down on LF like a ton of bricks. Sansa only sits on that information for the same reason she concealed information from Jon about LF: she believes on some level that LF is still useful, and, to the extent that he saved her from Ramsay by bringing her an army, she's not wrong.

But she helped Littlefinger cover that information up.   They assured her that she could tell them the truth even after she spun her tale of woe about her time in Kings Landing, she was asked by Lady Waynwood about what happened to her "Aunt" and Sansa said Lyssa killed herself.  I doubt the Vale Lords will be sympathetic to her trust issues.   If she told the truth now they would have to wonder, "why should we believe her" if they didn't turn on the North in an effort to take her into custody and allow her to face Vale Nobility justice.    If I were Sansa I would definitely keep the Lyssa Arryn murder and subsequent cover up OFF the front page of "The Westeros Gazette."

I also think "Love" for LF is different from everyone else.  I think he would turn on Sansa, not easily, but I think he would.  Sansa won't be able to keep him on a string forever and I feel sorry for her when LF realizes that she's done with him and can't be wooed (if in fact she is and can't) because Catelyn Stark rejected him and he systematically set fire to her entire life.   

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 Sansa being Lady of Winterfell is precarious because Jon and Bran may marry and then their wives could attain that position. 

This is what makes her situation so precarious.  If Jon or Bran marry, Sansa is nothing but the Kings Sister.   Lady of Winterfell no more, Services are no longer required.  Clean out your desk, please leave your heart-tree tiara on the bed as it were.  Granted the Otherpocalypse will need to be resolved first but I would definitely be thinking about what comes after.  Sansa has shown a strong desire to survive, so she should be thinking what avenues are open to her.

[Luckylyn]

47 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

The only marriage I see happening in S7 is between up-a-creek-Cersei and on-to-plan-B-Euron. I can imagine them being delusional enough to believe that together they can stop the Dragon Queen and then rule Westeros. The crazy would be off the charts hilarious and terrifying, but it would also serve the purpose of occupying much of Dany's time in S7 before moving on to the North in S8. 

If Sansa does break bad, the only person I envision she'd marry is Robin Arryn in order to take control of the Vale lords and knights so she & LF can then try to take the North from Jon. But I don't think D&D have the balls to make her so power hunger that she'd go up against the show's hero. Otherwise, I don't think another marriage is in her near future, if ever.

As for the marriage alliance Dany spoke of, the show is guilty of telegraphing a lot of stuff ("he always comes back") that I consider this one of those instances. I LMAO at the 'coincidence' that in the very episode Dany mentions a necessary marriage to a Westerosi man, Jon becomes ruler of the region that is hardest to control. Now I don't think any marriage between those 2 would occur in S7, but if they both survive the War for the Dawn, I can see them marrying in order to unite the North and South, and so that Jon's heirs and Dany's heirs don't destroy the kingdom years later fighting over who has the rightful claim to the Iron Throne. Or Jon could just die and all the thinly disguised shipping wars would be all for naught. 

With Dany's fleet coming and Cersei not being able to rely on Lannister money for ships a marriage to Euron may be her path to getting defense for King's Landing.  I suspect Euron will suffer an "accident" if he asserts himself too much.    Cersei may marry out of necessity, but she is not going to let a husband take any of her power away.  The throne is hers alone, and she's not sharing.

I do think Dany/Jon are destined for something.  So much seems to be building to them meeting and forming an alliance.  I assume Dany's the Fire and Jon is supposed to be Ice.  I just wonder if it will be marriage or making Jon her heir.  The big question is if Dany is barren because then  she will need an heir for stability.

I think if Sansa marries Robyn it will be to take Littlefinger down and work with Jon.   I know Sansa feels snubbed and wants to assert herself but destroying Jon would be a terrible way to accomplish anything since Jon is her best supporter.  Helping Jon is a path to power.  The stronger he is the safer she is.  I do think Sansa doesn't want to rely on anyone's protection and will try to find her own way. 

[Hecate7]

8 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

No longer. Jon is the King of the North and head of House Stark, plus her older half brother. Technically, he now gets to decide who Sansa marries, and I seriously doubt he would force her to marry anyone else she doesn't want to marry and/or sucks as a human being (see:Joffrey).

Unless he desperately needs men and supplies, in which case he might push her into a Robb Stark sort of arrangement with Littlefinger, or with a Tarley or a Redwyne. One good thing: He's not going to side with Cersei no matter what happens, and so the North will very likely ally itself with Danaerys. Sadly the Tyrells and Martells have no eligible men to offer Sansa. However, she does have a former husband in the party, who would extend the mantle of protection to her once more should Danaerys deem it advantageous.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Lysa and Sansa's situations are different because Lysa had command of her own men.  A woman with her own army can't be forced into marriage.  Sansa has no soldiers under her control other than Brienne.   The army of Winterfell is Jon's.  She does not command them.    

^^^Exactly! Sansa had the Vale army for a minute, but it is really her cousin's, and under Littlefinger's command, and now all of the Northmen pledged themselves to Jon, so Sansa really has nothing.

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Sansa has spent years as a pawn.  She now is in a place where she has some control but it may not last.   Sansa being Lady of Winterfell is precarious because Jon and Bran may marry and then their wives could attain that position.  Also Jon and/or Bran could die.  In that event could Sansa take control of Winterfell like Lady Mormont has of her own house or would vultures like Littlefinger try to push Sansa into a marriage against her will? 

If Jon marries anyone other than Sansa, then Sansa is no longer the Lady of Winterfell. That's one reason I am NOT rooting for Jon to marry Lady Mormont. I think being her sister-in-law would be hell on earth, especially for a girl like Sansa.

The reason Lyssa and Lady Mormont are free, is that they have no uncles left. Sansa has two: Edmure, and Littlefinger. Littlefinger will always try to use Sansa to improve his position, because he will use all of his resources. So even if Jon and Bran both died, Sansa would still have to deal with Littlefinger. The only think keeping Littlefinger from selling Sansa to another high bidder is that he wants her for himself, but if she gives him a final, definite no, she can expect to be sold to whichever ally can get Baelish to the Iron Throne fastest. If Littlefinger, Jon Snow, and Bran all died, Edmure could still marry Sansa to someone, and he's got troops and the law on his side. She'd have to do it.

If Sansa's lucky (and what are the odds of that?) Littlefinger and Sweetrobin will croak, leaving her the Vale, and Edmure, Rosalin, and their baby will be eaten by a dragon or something, leaving Sansa also the Lady of Riverrun before Edmure realizes he's got a pawn he can play. Otherwise I'm afraid Sansa may opt for Littlefinger simply to keep him placated, only to discover too late that she's made a fatal error. I don't think he loves her so much that he wouldn't swap her out for Cersei in a heartbeat if it'd get him the throne.

[Luckylyn]

Sansa is at the mercy of her most powerful male relatives.  Jon and Bran are safe for her because they would not act to hurt her and would allow her independence over the issue of marriage.  Edmure's the type to give into pressure rather than fight and so if he ends up having authority over Sansa that means either she can easily manipulate him or that he can be manipulated by others against Sansa's wishes.

When Littlefinger asked Sansa to leave King Landing with him to first time she said no.  Then when he and Olenna murdered Joffery, they arranged for Tyrion and Sansa to be blamed which then forced Sansa to go with him.  Littlefinger is not the sort to take no for an answer.  He'll pretend to be fine with your no and then manipulate the situation so that he can pressure you to do what he wants.  Sansa needs to figure out a way to get around Littlefinger to have any peace because he'll sabotage her to suit his own ends.  He wants Sansa either as a wife or mistress depending on what works for his interests.  He did try to arrange a marriage between Sansa/Robyn while married to Lysa and tried to seduce Sansa at the same time.   I do think he'd give Sansa up if he decided it suited his goal to be on the Iron Throne.  He'd sell her out for power with very little hesitation.  He's the sort to tell you he loves you while stabbing you in the back.  He offered Catelyn help while betraying her simultaneously all while claiming to love her.

I wonder if Little Finger's frustration with getting snubbed by the Northern Lords who chose to accept Jon rather than reject Jon like Littlefinger assumed would happen will lead Little Finger back into an alliance with Cersei in order to go after Jon.  Littlefinger may try to play ally to both sides trying to weaken each from the inside so they can take each other out living him a path to the throne.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

As for the marriage alliance Dany spoke of, the show is guilty of telegraphing a lot of stuff ("he always comes back") that I consider this one of those instances. I LMAO at the 'coincidence' that in the very episode Dany mentions a necessary marriage to a Westerosi man, Jon becomes ruler of the region that is hardest to control.

Exactly. It was one of those "Oh, come on!" moments, just like Tormund and Davos being all "Jon's not a king LOL" in 6x09.

55 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Unless he desperately needs men and supplies, in which case he might push her into a Robb Stark sort of arrangement with Littlefinger, or with a Tarley or a Redwyne.

Jon would never do that to his rape victim sister, especially when she once pretty much told him she would die rather than go back to be raped by her husband. That would be unthinkable to him. If it were a Robb situation or an Edmure situation, where they were never-married young men people had no history of being abused by previous spouses and who balked at their political matches not because they didn't want to marry or because they were rape victims but because they wanted hot wives, that would be one thing. That is not the case with Jon and Sansa. He is painfully aware of her history, and he would not force a marriage on her no matter how desperate things get.

We know in Season 6 that Jon takes his responsibility to protect Sansa very seriously. The idea that the Jon who passionately insisted that he would protect Sansa from Ramsay (meaning from being raped by him) would or could then force Sansa to submit to an unwanted marriage and rape by someone else makes no sense to me. Jon's not that guy.

37 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Littlefinger will always try to use Sansa to improve his position, because he will use all of his resources. So even if Jon and Bran both died, Sansa would still have to deal with Littlefinger. The only think keeping Littlefinger from selling Sansa to another high bidder is that he wants her for himself, but if she gives him a final, definite no, she can expect to be sold to whichever ally can get Baelish to the Iron Throne fastest.

LF has no power to "sell Sansa to another high bidder," since that would involve taking custody of her by force, something that's a tricky business if the KITN would rather die than hand her over to be married off against her wishes, or Sansa and Jon acknowledging his legal authority over her, something that they would never do. This idea of LF or Edmure supposedly forcing Sansa to marry by dint of their legal power over her as her uncles strikes me as strange. Sansa and Jon would laugh at Edmure or LF trying to force Sansa into marriage by asserting a legal authority over her, just as they told Ramsay to go fuck himself even though Sansa was lawfully married to Ramsay and Sansa should have by rights returned to her marriage with Ramsay. Neither Edmure nor LF would get anywhere with such attempts.

LF didn't even have the power to sell Sansa to the Boltons against her will, since he talked her into it and she agreed and bought in (stupidly, as it turns out, but LF offered to take her back to the Vale and she refused the offer). LF also knows that the moment he makes noises about selling Sansa into another marriage she'll do what she did in 6x05 and sever ties with him, and he doesn't want that; he wants an in with Sansa, meaning he's going to STFU about marrying her off, and he wants her to like him, so he's not going to do anything to piss her off. Strongarming her into marriage is the quickest way for Sansa to write him off for good.

Quote

Otherwise I'm afraid Sansa may opt for Littlefinger simply to keep him placated, only to discover too late that she's made a fatal error.

I do agree that Sansa's reluctance to boot Littlefinger out of her life for good and all will be her ruin, but I don't see it ending in marriage. She doesn't need to marry him for him to destroy her, though: ask Ned Stark.

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

I think if Sansa marries Robyn it will be to take Littlefinger down and work with Jon.   I know Sansa feels snubbed and wants to assert herself but destroying Jon would be a terrible way to accomplish anything since Jon is her best supporter. 

Sansa has a Stark dad and a Tully mom: bad decisions run in her blood.

14 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Sansa is at the mercy of her most powerful male relatives.

When Littlefinger asked Sansa to leave King Landing with him to first time she said no.  Then when he and Olenna murdered Joffery, they arranged for Tyrion and Sansa to be blamed which then forced Sansa to go with him.  Littlefinger is not the sort to take no for an answer. 

Except that LF did take no for an answer when Sansa told him to GTFO. He accepted her decision and only reentered her life when she begged him for help.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Worst comes to worst, Sansa will kill herself rather than be remarried by force. She threatened Jon that she would do that rather than go back to Ramsay.

 

Sansa was willing to kill herself to avoid the rape, torture, and slow dismemberment that she knew would be her fate with Ramsey. It wasn't simply a matter of not wishing to marry against her will, but also that there were absolutely no compensations or comfort to life with Ramsey.

That doesn't mean she's willing to kill herself to avoid any bridegroom at all. It meant she'd kill herself to avoid being flayed, fed to the dogs, or slowly dismembered and fed one tiny piece at a time to the dogs, while being raped daily. She knew that whatever awaited her on returning to Ramsey would be worse than anything that had happened previously. He would want to punish her for trying to escape.

[Hecate7]

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

LF didn't even have the power to sell Sansa to the Boltons against her will, since he talked her into it and she agreed and bought in (stupidly, as it turns out, but LF offered to take her back to the Vale and she refused the offer).

He did have that power, but he didn't want to use up any good will he had with her, on that particular move when he could just as easily talk her into it. It's only when he can't talk her into it, that he will actually use force. Sansa consented to the marriage with Ramsey of her own free will, but that doesn't mean that no one can ever force her to marry anyone. She consented to the marriage with Tyrion, too, if it comes right down to it.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Hecate7

[Luckylyn]

Littlefinger most likely felt it was easier to talk Sansa into marrying Ramsey rather than exert force.  He likes to act as if he is Sansa's friend as part of his courtship of her.

Sansa was totally at the Lannister's mercy when in Kings Landing.  Joffery was looking for an excuse to be cruel to Sansa.  Saying no to marrying Tyrion was not an option.  If she couldn't marry Loras than Tyrion was the safe option rather than another man who might have been a brute to her.

[bunnyblue]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

The big question is if Dany is barren because then  she will need an heir for stability.

That is the million dollar question. Considering she's twice mentioned her inability to have children, I wonder if we're meant to take it at face value. If that's the case, assuming both Jon & Dany survive, she'd name Jon her heir and, though he probably wouldn't rule, his children would. Then his choice of wife would be very important and the few candidates would be his Stark cousins, Lyanna Mormont, Yara, or totally-out-of-left-field-Brienne.

If Jon dies and Dany lives and it turns out she can have children, then her search for a husband becomes interesting since I don't think there are many suitable candidates. Tyrion? Sam?? Jaime??? It's this lack of marriageable men that leads me to believe that what transpired in 6x10 are the first seeds planted in an eventual Jon & Dany union. (And, no, I don't ship Jonerys or Jonsa. My preference for Jon is a total crack ship that has about 1% chance of happening in the show.)

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I suspect Euron will suffer an "accident" if he asserts himself too much.    Cersei may marry out of necessity, but she is not going to let a husband take any of her power away.  The throne is hers alone, and she's not sharing.

LOL, yeah, Euron would be the eventual loser in the Lannister-Greyjoy union. I just hope we're given a few episodes to enjoy the full glory of crazy-on-crazy before he meets the business end of FrankenMountain. 

As for who among Jon, Bran, Littlefinger, and Edmure could and would force Sansa into yet another political marriage, I doubt Bran or Jon would ever do that to her (or to Arya because that would laughable and deadly). They'd first offer themselves in a political marriage before ever considering using Sansa in such a way. I think LF would marry her himself before trying to marry her to someone else again. And she'd be a complete fool to let him lead her down that path again. I give her a little more credit than that. Uncle Edmure, on the other hand, I could see trying to marry her off for the betterment of the family and because he'd be within his rights as her last surviving male relative (in the event J & B are not around). She's as good as a stranger to him, and with a Frey wife by his side, I don't think he'd take her feelings or past experiences into consideration. But I don't think Edmure is relevant enough to D&D or GRRM to be given that much power. That's why I think Sansa's fate after the Otherpocalypse is to either rule as the Lady of Winterfell (if Jon's dead and Bran's living under tree) or as the Lady of the Dreadfort (if either brother survives); in either scenario, she'd have enough autonomy where she alone will decide if she ever marries again. 

[Advance35]

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I doubt Bran or Jon would ever do that to her (or to Arya because that would laughable and deadly).

A few people have said Jon would never force her into an unwanted marriage and I have to wonder why that is.   Yes he knows what Sansa has been through with Ramsay, but he also knows what is over the wall and headed there way.   And I think that is going to be his bottom line when all is said and done.  What happens if he comes across someone with a great many resources but they don't believe in Others, "Grumpkins and Snarks", "You wan't an alliance, I have an heir that needs an advantageous marriage."  Jon could waste men and resources fighting to take what he needs by force or he'll have to sit down and play "Let's make a deal." 

Will this happen?  I don't think so.  But could it? Most definitely.  Would he feel bad about it, to an extent but I have know doubt he would rationalize that overlooking Sansa's trauma is the lesser evil then not doing what needs to be done to brace for the Others.    And it was pointed out in the other thread, if/when Jon/Dany love like nobody has loved before and she's magically fertile again, what if they have a few children.  Say 3.  One would get the Iron Throne, One would likely get Dragonstone and one would get (drum roll) Winterfell.   When one considers succession issues, you can't help but think maybe Catelyn Stark loathed Jon Snow not just over the Ned issue but because she was staring at her Legacies doom.

I'm bummed my dream Sansa marriage isn't possible since the character hasn't been included in the show. Sigh.   I always kind of hoped her fate would be in Highgarden.

[TxanGoddess]

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And, no, I don't ship Jonerys or Jonsa. My preference for Jon is a total crack ship that has about 1% chance of happening in the show

Aw, c'mon this is like whispering to someone in public in front of everyone else.  We can't not want to know ...

Edited July 12, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

A few people have said Jon would never force her into an unwanted marriage and I have to wonder why that is.. 

I think it's pretty straightforward: Jon loves his sister and has expressed an urgent wish to keep Sansa safe. The idea of Sansa being raped was particularly repulsive to him. That he would ever under any circumstances force her into a marriage against her will--which means setting her up to be raped--with full knowledge of her history of being raped by Ramsay, is unthinkable to me; that would be a Tywin move, and Jon is Ned 2.0 through and through. He would look for another way, no matter how desperate things got, and he would never even think of doing that to Sansa; that's the kind of guy he is.

It would be funny if Jon tried to make a political match for Sansa and all her prospects were like "She ran away from her two previous husbands, leaving the first to take the blame for a murder they both committed and spearheading a campaign to take down the second. Thanks, but no thanks." Sansa wouldn't exactly be super appealing as wife material given her track record, not to mention that the Northern lords at least from what we've seen dislike her and view her as an honourary Bolton.

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I'm bummed my dream Sansa marriage isn't possible since the character hasn't been included in the show. Sigh.   I always kind of hoped her fate would be in Highgarden.

The Tyrells' downfall was only a matter of time once they got in bed with the Lannisters; Highgarden was never a good long-term bet for Sansa.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Eyes High

[riley702]

15 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

That is the million dollar question. Considering she's twice mentioned her inability to have children, I wonder if we're meant to take it at face value.

I remember her telling Khal Moro that she would never have children, not that she couldn't. I was assuming that was her decision and that there is at least some knowledge of contraception. I'm getting the feeling the book might be a different matter since so many people have been so adamant that she can't (not won't), but I'm just going by what I've seen, and I haven't seen anything that makes me think she's infertile.

[SimoneS]

21 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I think if Sansa marries Robyn it will be to take Littlefinger down and work with Jon.   I know Sansa feels snubbed and wants to assert herself but destroying Jon would be a terrible way to accomplish anything since Jon is her best supporter.  Helping Jon is a path to power.  The stronger he is the safer she is.  I do think Sansa doesn't want to rely on anyone's protection and will try to find her own way. 

This is exactly why I cannot buy the scenarios where Sansa allies with Littlefinger against Jon. Jon becoming strong and winning in his battles is Sansa's only hope to be safe from their enemies as well as Littlefinger. She clearly understands that not only Littlefinger untrustworthy, but he is a danger to her and Jon. It is only a matter of time before Littlefinger either tries to force her to marry him or he rapes her. I can see Sansa marrying Robin to manipulate him into helping Jon and pushing out Littleginer. Any alliance she seems to be forming will Littlefinger will be a deception. 

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

LF didn't even have the power to sell Sansa to the Boltons against her will, since he talked her into it and she agreed and bought in (stupidly, as it turns out, but LF offered to take her back to the Vale and she refused the offer). LF also knows that the moment he makes noises about selling Sansa into another marriage she'll do what she did in 6x05 and sever ties with him, and he doesn't want that; he wants an in with Sansa, meaning he's going to STFU about marrying her off, and he wants her to like him, so he's not going to do anything to piss her off. Strongarming her into marriage is the quickest way for Sansa to write him off for good.

WRONG

He offered to turn the horses around, they are in the middle of no where, he'll just take her to an inn and or village and have the Boltons get her there.

LF needed Sansa and the Boltons together to set his plan in motion and it made no matter how Sansa felt, what mattered was what he wanted.

Edited July 12, 2016 by GrailKing

[Luckylyn]

Littlefinger maneuvers people like pawns on a chessboard.  He will pretend to give you choices while working behind your back to force you into the decision that benefits him.  That's why he's dangerous because he won't lash out at you violently to your face but stay calm and slowly plot against you while pretending to be on your side.  He acted contrite when Sansa confronted him about giving her over to Ramsey, but he had to know Jon's manpower situation and probably knew Sansa would probably feel forced to ask for his help against the Boltons.  He was willing to graciously take her anger because he had good reason to believe she'd have to reach out to him at some point for aid and so might as well try to stay on her good side to make things easier for his future schemes.  Littlefinger thinks ahead and usually sees the bigger picture better than his opponents which does not mean he's infallible.  He clearly did not anticipate Sansa escaping the Boltons without his help or Jon's rise to power.  He will act a friend to Jon's face while plotting to bring down Jon and seems to be set on a course to make Sansa believe that it is for her sake.  Sansa should see through that manipulation and work in Jon's favor since that is what will keep her safest.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

This is exactly why I cannot buy the scenarios where Sansa allies with Littlefinger against Jon. Jon becoming strong and winning in his battles is Sansa's only hope to be safe from their enemies as well as Littlefinger. She clearly understands that not only Littlefinger untrustworthy, but he is a danger to her and Jon. It is only a matter of time before Littlefinger either tries to force her to marry him or he rapes her. I can see Sansa marrying Robin to manipulate him into helping Jon and pushing out Littleginer. Any alliance she seems to be forming will Littlefinger will be a deception. 

I don't believe Littlefinger would ever rape Sansa. He wants to seduce her--thus the "vision" of her on the Iron Throne--not take her by force. I think LF gets off on seducing Sansa and winning her over, seeing it as another one of his games. He wants to win the game "for real." Raping her would be cheating.

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

He offered to turn the horses around, they are in the middle of no where, he'll just take her to an inn and or village and have the Boltons get her there.

We don't know what he would have done, because Sansa agreed. All we know is that he made an offer to take her back, and she declined. It's the same as in Season 6. We don't know that he would have tried to wriggle his way back into Sansa's life had she not requested his assistance. All we know is that Sansa told him to GTFO in 6x05 and he did.

Also, the thing is that whatever else LF wants, he wants Sansa to view him as a friend and protector. It does not serve his interests at all if she hates him. He wants her to want him in her life, and he wants to make sure she has no reason to write him off. That's why he was mortified and apologetic when the Bolton plan backfired in such catastrophic fashion: in Sansa's eyes, either he was too stupid to protect her or too malevolent to try. Either alternative was mortifying to him. Openly feeding her to the Boltons with a "LOL, bye" at the inn would be the last thing he would want.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I don't believe Littlefinger would ever rape Sansa. He wants to seduce her--thus the "vision" of her on the Iron Throne--not take her by force. I think LF gets off on seducing Sansa and winning her over, seeing it as another one of his games. He wants to win the game "for real." Raping her would be cheating.

I don't agree. I think he would rape her if his games failed. Another possibility is that he creates a situation in which he coerces her into having sex with him but one way or the other he is determine to control and have her. It is sick, perverted, and creepy as hell. I hope that Sansa stabs him in the heart by the end of the series although I'll be fine if Varys does him in.

Edited July 13, 2016 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

We don't know what he would have done, because Sansa agreed. All we know is that he made an offer to take her back, and she declined. It's the same as in Season 6. We don't know that he would have tried to wriggle his way back into Sansa's life had she not requested his assistance. All we know is that Sansa told him to GTFO in 6x05 and he did.

Also, the thing is that whatever else LF wants, he wants Sansa to view him as a friend and protector. It does not serve his interests at all if she hates him. He wants her to want him in her life, and he wants to make sure she has no reason to write him off. That's why he was mortified and apologetic when the Bolton plan backfired in such catastrophic fashion: in Sansa's eyes, either he was too stupid to protect her or too malevolent to try. Either alternative was mortifying to him. Openly feeding her to the Boltons with a "LOL, bye" at the inn would be the last thing he would want.

Not 100 %, but I don't think he take her back to the Vale, he take her to a village, inn or another isolated place in the North and arrange if not for Roose, he ask for Ramsey or some other scenario.

I also don't see Sansa's not a reply or answer as her agreeing, LF has her in the middle of nowhere so she went with it thinking maybe she can change something once in Winterfell.

Yes he wants Sansa to see him as a protector and friend, but I think that ship has sailed, between Molestown and the Godswoods in Winterfell and TKITN in the great hall, he will try and manipulate Sansa and Jon ( I think more Jon) especially if he somehow learns of Jon's heritage.

All we can do is wait and see.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I don't agree. I think he would rape her if his games failed.

Raping Sansa would be an admission of failure on LF's part. I don't see him ever getting to that point. I see him believing right until the end that he can change her mind.

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Yes he wants Sansa to see him as a protector and friend, but I think that ship has sailed, between Molestown and the Godswoods in Winterfell and TKITN in the great hall, he will try and manipulate Sansa and Jon ( I think more Jon) especially if he somehow learns of Jon's heritage.

"Will try and manipulate Sansa"? He has already manipulated Sansa twice in Season 6: first by planting a seed of doubt in her mind about Jon ("half-brother") which led her to conceal information from Jon without being able to give an explanation after the fact as to why (leading Jon in turn to chide her "We need to trust each other"), and the second time by strongly supporting her claim to QITN and underlining Jon's lack of suitability for KITN (her unhappy faces when Lyanna and the Northern lords are talking about how great Jon Snow is are telling). Sansa has already softened considerably towards him in 6x10, and although she snarks about how untrustworthy he is in 6x10, apparently he isn't so untrustworthy that she refuses to confide in him ("I thought about what I wanted and never about what I had"), that she asks him to GTFO now that she no longer has any use for him, or that she won't share a lingering unhappy look with him instead of pasting on a smile the way she did with everyone else.

You don't need to convince most viewers that LF will be Sansa's ruin if she keeps him around and Sansa needs to remove him permanently from her life. I think, judging from 6x10, that Sansa is the one who needs to be convinced. His big save at the BOTB went a long way towards restoring the goodwill she previously held towards him; while she may no longer trust him, she certainly seems to value him and see him as a supporter. Her softer, more conflicted body language in the godswood scene is very different from her ramrod-straight posture and cutting tone in 6x05. Even her comment about LF serving himself comes off more as fond exasperation than withering contempt. Given how few supporters she has these days and how much bile she had flung her way by Lyanna Mormont and Lord Glover, having LF advocating for her, praising her as the future of the North, and telling her she belongs on the Iron Throne would be catnip to Sansa. Add on to that LF's previous warning about Jon and Sansa needing her own army--which in light of the KITN debacle is going to appear wiser and even prophetic to Sansa--and Sansa is going to be even more disposed to listen to LF's advice. She might convince herself just as she seems to have done in Season 4 that for all of LF's lying and maneuvring, his love for her and his political acumen mean that he can be useful to advancing her goals without risking any blowback or betrayal. She might even convince herself that LF is a better bet than Jon in terms of procuring her own long-term security and stability. She's wrong on both counts, of course, but she needs to realize that. She hasn't yet, as far as I can tell. Sansa might see the KITN acclamation as confirmation of everything LF warned her about.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Eyes High