Is Lorelai Gilmore Maybe Not A Great Mother?

[hippielamb]

On 7/4/2016 at 6:43 PM, Drapers4thWife said:

Part of the problem is that there was no concrete feeling around Lorelai's rebellion. What exactly did her parents not support her in, aside from her teen pregnancy and general troublemaking? Hell, they even liked the boyfriend who got her pregnant! She didn't dream of being an actress and they were forcing her into medical school or anything like that.  They were of course unhappy about the pregnancy because they knew, better than Lorelai did, how teen pregnancies could absolutely ruin someone's life unless they were very, very lucky. But they didn't kick Lorelai out or force her into marriage, she stayed at home with her baby and wanted for nothing. Had she stayed, I'm guessing they would have eventually gotten a nanny for Rory and financially supported Lorelai while she went to college. Lorelai was never going to be a business person liked Richard or a scholar like Rory, but I'm sure Emily would probably have been thrilled if Lorelai had gone to school for costume or fashion design or event planning, or whatever Lorelai was passionate about at the time, because those are suitable roles for women in her world.

I think their biggest sin in Lorelai's eyes was the controlling behaviour, especially from Emily. I would expect that after Rory's birth, it got more intense. Having a nanny and how Rory would be raised with Lorelai digging in her heels about it. I think this reflects Lorelai's parenting style. She purposely does the opposite of what Emily would do because she doesn't want to be that kind of mother. Even as late as season 7, Emily and Lorelai have very different approaches in dealing with Rory.

Lorelai is proud that she and Rory are friends first and mother & daughter second. While some people take issue with that arrangement, it makes sense to me that a daughter who felt controlled would be a more laid back parent. 

[txhorns79]

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Lorelai is proud that she and Rory are friends first and mother & daughter second. While some people take issue with that arrangement, it makes sense to me that a daughter who felt controlled would be a more laid back parent. 

That's interesting.  I think Lorelai is only "laid back" because, at least during the first few seasons, she largely has a daughter who agrees with her, and mostly does what Lorelai wants.  If Lorelai was dealing with a more oppositional child (perhaps like Emily dealt with, with Lorelai), she'd probably be a lot more like Emily, taking a stricter line, if maybe eventually becoming more open to accommodation if it became clear that Rory would not change her mind.    

[WhosThatGirl]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

That's interesting.  I think Lorelai is only "laid back" because, at least during the first few seasons, she largely has a daughter who agrees with her, and mostly does what Lorelai wants.  If Lorelai was dealing with a more oppositional child (perhaps like Emily dealt with, with Lorelai), she'd probably be a lot more like Emily, taking a stricter line, if maybe eventually becoming more open to accommodation if it became clear that Rory would not change her mind.    

I agree with this. And it should be noted when Rory was more oppositional, Lorelai handled it quite poorly. Even in one of the first episodes of the series when Rory took to Richard's golfing club well, Lorelai had a mini-panic, granted it only lasted for the remaining time of the episode but still. Anytime Lorelai had to deal with an angry Rory, she handled it wrong.

[hippielamb]

On 7/10/2016 at 10:07 PM, txhorns79 said:

That's interesting.  I think Lorelai is only "laid back" because, at least during the first few seasons, she largely has a daughter who agrees with her, and mostly does what Lorelai wants.  If Lorelai was dealing with a more oppositional child (perhaps like Emily dealt with, with Lorelai), she'd probably be a lot more like Emily, taking a stricter line, if maybe eventually becoming more open to accommodation if it became clear that Rory would not change her mind.    

I guess the question becomes is Rory naturally a non-rebellious kid or is she that way because of the environment in which she was raised. I waver on this every time. Rory is such a people pleaser but she really had nothing to rebel against in her first 16 years. Of course, because Rory is such a rule follower, Lorelai didn't have to set many boundaries.

By the same token, Lorelai is a product of the suffocating environment in which she was raised and why she embraces being different. If Rory were a difficult child, I think Lorelai would have tried a unique approach to get through to her.

On 7/10/2016 at 11:12 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I agree with this. And it should be noted when Rory was more oppositional, Lorelai handled it quite poorly. Even in one of the first episodes of the series when Rory took to Richard's golfing club well, Lorelai had a mini-panic, granted it only lasted for the remaining time of the episode but still. Anytime Lorelai had to deal with an angry Rory, she handled it wrong.

Part of the problem is their unique relationship. Rory expects Lorelai to be her friend and agree with her decision, like sleeping with Dean or leaving Yale, and instead Lorelai approaches from the mom angle. We see it as far back as the car accident. It illustrates how it can sometimes be difficult to have a peer type of relationship with your child, even an adult aged one. 

[jjj]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:07 PM, txhorns79 said:

That's interesting.  I think Lorelai is only "laid back" because, at least during the first few seasons, she largely has a daughter who agrees with her, and mostly does what Lorelai wants.  If Lorelai was dealing with a more oppositional child (perhaps like Emily dealt with, with Lorelai), she'd probably be a lot more like Emily, taking a stricter line, if maybe eventually becoming more open to accommodation if it became clear that Rory would not change her mind.    

That's an interesting point, because the show starts with Rory age 15 and 11 months, and we later see Lorelai at exactly the same age, in the flashback scene with Lorelai and Christopher (in Season 3) when Rory was conceived.  Lorelai was a couple of months younger when Rory was conceived, 15 years and 9 months (giving birth in October of the year Lorelai was 16, having turned 16 in May).  If Lorelai in Season 1 came home to Rory drinking whiskey  and having sex and getting pregnant in the first few episodes, yes, I think that would have become a less "friendly" relationship. 

[txhorns79]

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Part of the problem is their unique relationship. Rory expects Lorelai to be her friend and agree with her decision, like sleeping with Dean or leaving Yale, and instead Lorelai approaches from the mom angle.

I would say two things.  I think Lorelai's "mom as friend" parenting style had a huge flaw, because Lorelai would sometimes switch between "mom" and friend" with no real delineation of those roles.  I would also say that Rory's tone during the conversation with her mom about sex with Dean (timidly lighthearted) indicated that she really didn't expect her mother to respond as a "friend," because Rory knew she screwed up.  

[WhosThatGirl]

20 hours ago, jjj said:

That's an interesting point, because the show starts with Rory age 15 and 11 months, and we later see Lorelai at exactly the same age, in the flashback scene with Lorelai and Christopher (in Season 3) when Rory was conceived.  Lorelai was a couple of months younger when Rory was conceived, 15 years and 9 months (giving birth in October of the year Lorelai was 16, having turned 16 in May).  If Lorelai in Season 1 came home to Rory drinking whiskey  and having sex and getting pregnant in the first few episodes, yes, I think that would have become a less "friendly" relationship. 

Agreed. Remember the morning after the winter dance where Rory fell asleep and was out all night with Dean and Rory walked in and was all, "thank you for standing up for me to Grandma", Lorelai's first words were, "you're going on the pill!" So, yeah, Lorelai obviously had that fear that Rory could end up like her. Despite her seconds before telling Emily that would never happen because  she and Rory had a different bond or something.

Then again, as has been noted, we factor in that Rory was a perfect child, but why was she a perfect child was probably due to Lorelai not being perfect, for the most part, Rory was sort of a perfect teenager, she hung out in Stars Hallow with Lane, and then school, and then was reading. Yes, she got a boyfriend but she was even super careful with that, probably because of Lorelai- reference her and Dean's first breakup when he said I Love You and she freaked out and he called her out on ' you can't get pregnant from saying I love you', I suppose this means these two had a conversation or something- I just feel like Rory was always careful about her choices as a teen because she knew of the mistakes Lorelai had made.

I think their mother-daughter relationship was actually okay when Rory was younger, because as we have all said, Rory was perfect. But then Rory become an adult and I think both Lorelai and she didn't know how to deal with that change. When she slept with Dean and Rory said, "you are just mad we didn't have some sort of talk about it first" which I think there is a lot of truth in that statement because when Rory considered sleeping with Jess a year earlier, there was a whole moment where Rory told her mom she was sure she was ready but when the actual time came she would let her know. Like, when all these moments happened when Rory was 16, she and her mom would talk about them endlessly and see each other so they couldn't ice each other out for long, but as an adult, Rory could just leave. I don't even know if I'm making any sense here, so I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say. 

[themoon411]

I get what your saying, and I agree with you. I actually feel lauralie was better at the mom part then the friend part. She and Rory never learned how to handle conflict, and while they lived together, they had no choice but to forgive each other ( like you said). However, even then, whenever they had a falling out, about dean or jess or max, their fights lasted days.

So when Rory moved out, and they had a disagreement, they would take turns freezing each other out. Even the big season 6 fight didn't seem to teach them to handle conflict, because in season 7 rory freezes her mom out after her marriage to Chris.

Lauralie seemed good at handling the behavior issues such as getting arrested and getting bad grades. It was when rory did things that a friend would disapprove of ( getting help from lauralies nemesis' emily and Richard, dating the rich kids she fled from, making her look bad) that lauralie would flip out on rory. 

[blueray]

On 5/19/2016 at 1:40 PM, hellmouse said:

I've never understood why anyone thought it was normal that she slept over on Rory's first night at Yale. Missing your parents and being nervous and homesick is normal. Your mom sleeping on a mattress on the floor isn't. IMO. Rory had perhaps the most sheltered life ever.

I always wondered about this too. I remember my first night a college, I was home sick and missed my mother. But I would never have asked her to stay lol. And what was weird about that is that Rory's roommates (minus Paris) didn't think it was lame or odd. Actually if I remember correctly it was the opposite it made her "popular". Unless they all thought Loriali was her sister...

[txhorns79]

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I remember my first night a college, I was home sick and missed my mother. But I would never have asked her to stay lol. And what was weird about that is that Rory's roommates (minus Paris) didn't think it was lame or odd. Actually if I remember correctly it was the opposite it made her "popular".

Yeah, I am surprised Rory didn't get crap from the mean girls on that one.  Even when your mom is Lorelai, it still would be very weird to have her sleeping over at the dorm on the first night. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

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I remember my first night a college, I was home sick and missed my mother. But I would never have asked her to stay lol. And what was weird about that is that Rory's roommates (minus Paris) didn't think it was lame or odd. Actually if I remember correctly it was the opposite it made her "popular".

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Yeah, I am surprised Rory didn't get crap from the mean girls on that one.  Even when your mom is Lorelai, it still would be very weird to have her sleeping over at the dorm on the first night. 

 

I can buy well enough that the other students basically rolled with it because Lorelai is nothing if charismatic and their little take-out party did look lots of fun. But come morning and reality set in, I'd think 99% of them thought there was something wrong with Rory, plain and simple. No wonder we aren't shown Rory having made and kept ANY friends from that night on subsequent episodes.

A different person, a more self-aware and less coddled person, might have used the party to confront their own misgivings and make a much needed attempt to step out of their confort zone, maybe even by bonding with another person who might feel similarly hopeless at "adulting" or even found Rory's willingness to own up to being the ultimate Mama's girl and wanting to grow up a bit  and thus FRIENDSHIP! But nope. There's no talk of Rory making any friends there, probably because she hid behind Lorelai like she always does.

[hippielamb]

On 7/18/2016 at 1:18 PM, txhorns79 said:

I would say two things.  I think Lorelai's "mom as friend" parenting style had a huge flaw, because Lorelai would sometimes switch between "mom" and friend" with no real delineation of those roles.  I would also say that Rory's tone during the conversation with her mom about sex with Dean (timidly lighthearted) indicated that she really didn't expect her mother to respond as a "friend," because Rory knew she screwed up.  

I agree with you there. Lorelai goes into mom mode without any warning. You can't be the chill best friend and then suddenly go into bossy mom mode when your adult aged child does something you don't like. It sends a mixed message. She finally understands that by season 7 but it took two big fights between them for Lorelai to get there. I have often thought that she and college aged Rory should have had a discussion about where the line is between mom and friend. It would eliminate a lot of their conflict in the later seasons. 

[txhorns79]

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There's no talk of Rory making any friends there, probably because she hid behind Lorelai like she always does.

What amazes me is that for all of talk of the horrors of Emily, she clearly raised (perhaps inadvertently) an independent daughter who had the drive and ambition to succeed on her own.  With Lorelai, she raised an intelligent daughter who was completely dependent on her mother to the point that she couldn't get through the first night of college without having her there. 

[TimetravellingBW]

On 21 July 2016 at 11:04 AM, blueray said:

I always wondered about this too. I remember my first night a college, I was home sick and missed my mother. But I would never have asked her to stay lol. And what was weird about that is that Rory's roommates (minus Paris) didn't think it was lame or odd. Actually if I remember correctly it was the opposite it made her "popular". Unless they all thought Loriali was her sister...

Watching it I assumed no one (apart from Paris and later her other suite mates who were pretty weird themselves) knew Lorelai was Rory's mom. At one point didn't someone ask Rory who was organising things and she just referred to Lorelai as "that woman over there" or something? Lorelai looks young enough to pass as a student, even if a slightly older/returning one. And given it was the first night people probably didn't work out who belonged to what suite and that there were too many people in Rory's room.

If they did notice the Lorelai/Rory resemblance they'd probably assume Lorelai was Rory's older sister or cousin which isn't as weird. Or if people did realise Lorelai was her mom maybe they thought Lorelai lived far away from Yale and was just staying the night before heading home the next day. Drop off had only been that morning and I'm sure cases like that must happen when parents can't get between college and home in one day and need to save money so they stay over. Random people at the party wouldn't have known Lorelai was only half an hour away and Rory begged her to come back.

So I don't think staying over was an issue but Lorelai taking total control of everything was pretty weird. Hang back and stay low profile while the students socialise and so Rory feels reassured would be ok. Running a whole party so everyone notices you and you make friends who will never see you again apart from when you visit as "Rory's Mom" - that's a bizarre move. They're seventeen not seven and can organise themselves. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[junienmomo]

5 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Watching it I assumed no one (apart from Paris and later her other suite mates who were pretty weird themselves) knew Lorelai was Rory's mom. At one point didn't someone ask Rory who was organising things and she just referred to Lorelai as "that woman over there" or something? Lorelai looks young enough to pass as a student, even if a slightly older/returning one. And given it was the first night people probably didn't work out who belonged to what suite and that there were too many people in Rory's room.

If they did notice the Lorelai/Rory resemblance they'd probably assume Lorelai was Rory's older sister or cousin which isn't as weird. Or if people did realise Lorelai was her mom maybe they thought Lorelai lived far away from Yale and was just staying the night before heading home the next day. Drop off had only been that morning and I'm sure cases like that must happen when parents can't get between college and home in one day and need to save money so they stay over. Random people at the party wouldn't have known Lorelai was only half an hour away and Rory begged her to come back.

So I don't think staying over was an issue but Lorelai taking total control of everything was pretty weird. Hang back and stay low profile while the students socialise and so Rory feels reassured would be ok. Running a whole party so everyone notices you and you make friends who will never see you again apart from when you visit as "Rory's Mom" - that's a bizarre move. They're seventeen not seven and can organise themselves. 

Loved that you noticed this! I couldn't resist going back and checking. You are completely right, no one ever used the word Mom for sure in front of the whole Durfee crowd, although I expect Tana and Janet learned at least via Paris. The one time Rory referred to her mother she used 'Lorelai.' The next day, when her potential new friends came by with coffee, they used Lorelai as well. 

One reputation Lorelai had was for throwing parties, so I imagine that they magically unpacked in a split-second and Lorelai had nothing else to do except talk and start her usual 'gotta be the star of the show' routine. Therefore a party was pretty much inevitable. Poor Lorelai - she seemed to have a sense of what she missed by not going to college at that age. 

[TimetravellingBW]

21 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Loved that you noticed this! I couldn't resist going back and checking. You are completely right, no one ever used the word Mom for sure in front of the whole Durfee crowd, although I expect Tana and Janet learned at least via Paris. The one time Rory referred to her mother she used 'Lorelai.' The next day, when her potential new friends came by with coffee, they used Lorelai as well. 

One reputation Lorelai had was for throwing parties, so I imagine that they magically unpacked in a split-second and Lorelai had nothing else to do except talk and start her usual 'gotta be the star of the show' routine. Therefore a party was pretty much inevitable. Poor Lorelai - she seemed to have a sense of what she missed by not going to college at that age. 

I remember noticing it exactly because I was sitting there going "isn't everyone going to think Rory's a weirdo for having her Mom stay the night?" so I was glad to reassure myself everyone just referred to her as "Lorelai" and presumably thought she was another student or just a cool friend/relative of Rory's. Of course that could have caused problems with those potential new friends later on, once they discovered Lorelai was Rory's mom who lived less than an hour away. But as we never saw the morning coffee girls or anyone else in the building (apart from Rory's suitemates and Marty) ever again it doesn't seem to have been an issue.

I do wonder how much of Lorelai encouraging Rory about college and Harvard was about projecting her own dreams onto her. I know people have already discussed that reference to Lorelai dressing Rory up in a Harvard sweater when she only 2 - that seemed like a very telling comment. All of Lorelai's peers were going off to college to have the time of their lives while she was raising a baby and she was probably too stubborn (and loved Rory too much) to admit quite how much she regretted losing that experience. So it would make sense that she pinned all of her unfulfilled hopes on her daughter.

Luckily Rory turned out to be studious kid who loved learning and was desperate to attend an Ivy League, but I'd love to see an alternate scenario when Rory is less focused/geeky and more interested in boys/partying/fun (ironically if she was more like her parents) and whether Lorelai would be quite so smug about what an amazing daughter she had. I wonder if she'd learn from her own upbringing and be understanding and accepting of Rory, or be more like Richard and Emily and still force those dreams of a high-achieving, brilliant future onto her daughter. (Linking back to the previous discussion that if Rory had been a more rebellious, lively, difficult child Lorelai may not have developed the "Friends first! Chill mom!" parenting style). Lorelai's reaction to Rory dropping out of Yale certainly suggests she doesn't know how to deal with Rory when she's not achieving everything she should be. (I actually loathe Rory during that period and don't blame Lorelai for being upset, but I do think her response offers interesting parallels to Richard and Emily's treatment of her when she screwed up and could have been used to reflect on her expectations and attitude about Rory as a perfect angel child).

Edited July 23, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[patchwork]

I suspect if Lorelai has another child, especially a daughter, she would struggle to adjust her parenting style to suit a non Rory.

A lot of Emilyism would probably be appearing by the kid's teenage years. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by patchwork

[Taryn74]

4 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

(Linking back to the previous discussion that if Rory had been a more rebellious, lively, difficult child Lorelai may not have developed the "Friends first! Chill mom!" parenting style). Lorelai's reaction to Rory dropping out of Yale certainly suggests she doesn't know how to deal with Rory when she's not achieving everything she should be. 

Which is why Luke's rant in Nick & Nora didn't particularly bother me.  I know people think he was way out of line there, but in many ways Lorelai DID get lucky with Rory and she needed to be kicked off her parenting high horse every once in a while.

[WhosThatGirl]

Well I think a lot of why Rory was a good daughter goes back to what I said in another post, I think Rory didn't want to repeat Lorelai's choices as a teen. Rory was very gun-shy when it came to dating, more than likely because of her mothers choices.

I also agree about Lorelai's projection thing, the episode where Rory and Lorelai sneak into  Harvard and Lorelai walks around while Rory sits in a class, there is a moment where Lorelai looks at a picture of what would have been her graduting college class and looks thoughtful. Also she was so adament about Harvard for Rory, the episode where Richard and Emily brought them to Yale and the sneak attack interview for Rory, Lorelai freaked out, because it was 'Harvard' or bust. 

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Well I think a lot of why Rory was a good daughter goes back to what I said in another post, I think Rory didn't want to repeat Lorelai's choices as a teen. Rory was very gun-shy when it came to dating, more than likely because of her mothers choices.

I agree, but that also ties in with Rory's personality too.  Many of my friends in high school used their moms being teenage mothers as an EXCUSE to sleep around, because it would have been "hypocritical" of their mom to tell them not to sleep with every boy they dated.  (Their reasoning, not mine.)

People generally find an excuse to back up whatever it is they want to do, I've found.

[TimetravellingBW]

7 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Which is why Luke's rant in Nick & Nora didn't particularly bother me.  I know people think he was way out of line there, but in many ways Lorelai DID get lucky with Rory and she needed to be kicked off her parenting high horse every once in a while.

6 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Well I think a lot of why Rory was a good daughter goes back to what I said in another post, I think Rory didn't want to repeat Lorelai's choices as a teen. Rory was very gun-shy when it came to dating, more than likely because of her mothers choices.

I agree Rory's attitude to dating was influenced by Lorelai - she was probably wary because she'd watched her mother get hurt repeatedly by Christopher throughout the years, and so she seems to have sought security with people in her life, preferring relationships to dating. But even then a lot of her attitude to boys came down to having an introverted, cautious personality who just didn't enjoy casual dating. Likewise, I think her being studious and passive was ultimately just her natural personality not something Lorelai was responsible for instilling - though she encouraged it. And yeah Luke taking jabs about Lorelai getting pregnant at 16 was harsh but he was right in saying Lorelai lucked out getting the brainy, bookish kid. Ironically Lorelai ended up being proud that Rory was more like Richard - who was also serious, focused and quiet - rather than taking after Lorelai herself or Christopher, who were both more extroverted.

Edited July 23, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[txhorns79]

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Which is why Luke's rant in Nick & Nora didn't particularly bother me.  I know people think he was way out of line there, but in many ways Lorelai DID get lucky with Rory and she needed to be kicked off her parenting high horse every once in a while.

I did think it was amusing.  Lorelai was completely right that Luke was not prepared for Jess, but Lorelai clearly had no clue how to deal with him either.  Jess overcame Lorelai's vaunted parenting skills in two or three minutes. 

[Viqutorious]

Lorelai certainly wasn't a stellar stepmother to Gigi. Who would make a 3-5 year old child wait to celebrate Christmas until her adult biological daughter was home? She also wasn't too keen on fixing up Rory's room for her, while refusing to move!

[TimetravellingBW]

I forgot about how she dealt with Gigi (which probably reflects how little I rewatch S7), the main thing I remember is her calling Chris out for spoiling her which didn't really go anywhere. But I think her general blasé attitude towards Gigi - from not wanting to redecorate Rory's room, to not even considering her when she and Chris impulsively got hitched - was reflective of not truly committing to a life with Chris. So it's hard to tell how she really was with younger kids. She seemed pretty good with April and her friends who were s bit older but that was a fun environment and we didn't see much more than that. 

When exactly did her "Friend first! Mom second!" attitude kick in? Because you just can't have that parenting style regarding toddlers and younger kids. I imagine Rory had to be at least 11 or 12 before Lorelai could engage with her as an equal and friend. Before that she would have had to have a decent discipline/rules system that any kid needs, although she wouldn't have forced the strict, pernickety rules Emily did and probably gave Rory a fair amount of freedom and independence. (Partly out of necessity as a single parent). So Rory's maturity and responsible nature was probably influenced by Lorelai treating her as a grown up early on but her studiousness and introverted personality was just natural. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[junienmomo]

The Friends First philosophy was indicated in the pilot already, when Lorelai told Rory that they had "always" had a democracy. That apparently ended when Rory muttered about staying at SH High. 

If the personality traits that Lorelai exhibited during Seasons 6 and 7 were intended to demonstrate her character arc, I didn't like the new, mature Lorelai at all. 

First she pulled an Emily level hissy fit by freezing her daughter out for six months. Then she became a doormat to Luke's inexplicable treatment of the April situation.

Sleeping with Christopher was absolutely unforgivable, and as said before, the marriage was a farce, with her constantly trying to convince herself it was what she wanted. Her behavior as Chris' wife reminded me of a quirky trophy wife, because she placed weird demands on Christopher to prove his love by staying in SH, not changing traditions, etc. Also as mentioned above, she was a poor stepparent to the younger girl, which is more of a stereotypical notion of the trophy wife. Not the Sherry type, trying to get the stepkid's love, but the indifferent stepmother.

Even though she was recovering in the second half of S7, she wasn't really the Lorelai that I loved from the earlier seasons, with impetuous generosity, a kind heart, and a loving attitude to most everyone. She was almost living life on the sidelines. Then she made the "It didn't mean anything" blunder in the diner, derailing her hopes about Luke, which she positioned in the last episode by explaining to Rory that he never responds to her gestures. She was right back in Denial Land, which was very disappointing. 

I'm hoping the Revival revives her vivacity and love for life.

[WhosThatGirl]

I hated Lorelai for freezing Rory out about the college thing-don't get me wrong, I really didn't like Rory during the arc either, I too, like most, thought she was being overdramatic about Logan's father's speech, obviously it was her first time hearing that she wasn't the special snowflake (I don't count Chilton, because that only lasted for about 2.5 seconds) and this made her go crazy and steal a boat and get arrested and then the next day leave her final exam booklet blank and then just come home to SH and expect her mom to be like, "sure, that's cool" about the whole thing- but yeah, Lorelai's behavior was messed up. I remember that scene where she woke up her parents just to throw down boxes of Rory's stuff and be all, "now you have the daughter you ALWAYS WANTED!" Um... what? This line never made sense to me. I get that Rory is dolcie to Lorelai's personality, but they probably didn't want a daughter who walked away from college and was now doing community service and all that. It..didn't make sense that line.

As for the marriage to Christopher, ick. I also agree with the above posts, about acting like a stepford wife. That makes sense. I think she kind of felt she had to be that? If she was going to do this and run around the circle and end up with him at the be all end of it all, in her head then she probably should just jump right in. I haven't seen the last season in quite some time, before the revival- when we actually get a date!- I might rewatch but I do remember that Chris was trying to officially date and she was holding him off but then she did some debut thing with Emily for kids at the Inn or something and at the end of that episode, she went to his apartment and agreed to start dating? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As for Gigi, she was pretty terrible to the little girl. I wonder about the Christmas thing? Did they hold off everything? I mean, it seems like now once Thanksgiving is over, all the Christmas stuff is out in full force but I wonder if they held off on letting Gigi do certain things, like meeting Santa and all that. What I find funny is that Rory comes home from London and Lorelai is all, "we saved Christmas to celebrate with you!" and then she finds out Rory did celebrate with Logan because she sees her new earrings.

I know I said I didn't think she was perfect, I thought she was good and decent and I still feel that way but I do agree with others who have said that sadly Lorelai didn't raise an independent child. Sure, on the surface Rory is quite independent but the fact that she can't handle criticism is a problem. I'm sorry, you have to fall and fail a little bit. I know we want the world to be perfect for the people we love and care about but the fact that Rory couldn't handle a bad grade and Lorelai's first instinct was to blame the school is kind of a problem. 

[TimetravellingBW]

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

The Friends First philosophy was indicated in the pilot already, when Lorelai told Rory that they had "always" had a democracy. That apparently ended when Rory muttered about staying at SH High. 

The show definitely set it up that Rory and Lorelai had "always" had a democracy, but the show started when Rory was already 15 so I figured that dynamic developed gradually as Rory grew up. You can't exactly let a 3 year old decide time their bed time is going to be, Lorelai must have instilled some kind of rules/you must do your homework/be respectful to people stuff otherwise Rory would have a total hoodlum. But I imagine Lorelai made a conscious effort to explain her decisions/rules to Rory and let Rory know she trusted her with things, and in that way saw their relationship as a "democracy" from the start - especially in contrast to Richard and Emily.

2 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I hated Lorelai for freezing Rory out about the college thing-don't get me wrong, I really didn't like Rory during the arc either, I too, like most, thought she was being overdramatic about Logan's father's speech, obviously it was her first time hearing that she wasn't the special snowflake (I don't count Chilton, because that only lasted for about 2.5 seconds) and this made her go crazy and steal a boat and get arrested and then the next day leave her final exam booklet blank and then just come home to SH and expect her mom to be like, "sure, that's cool" about the whole thing- but yeah, Lorelai's behavior was messed up. I remember that scene where she woke up her parents just to throw down boxes of Rory's stuff and be all, "now you have the daughter you ALWAYS WANTED!" Um... what? This line never made sense to me. I get that Rory is dolcie to Lorelai's personality, but they probably didn't want a daughter who walked away from college and was now doing community service and all that. It..didn't make sense that line.

I know I said I didn't think she was perfect, I thought she was good and decent and I still feel that way but I do agree with others who have said that sadly Lorelai didn't raise an independent child. Sure, on the surface Rory is quite independent but the fact that she can't handle criticism is a problem. I'm sorry, you have to fall and fail a little bit. I know we want the world to be perfect for the people we love and care about but the fact that Rory couldn't handle a bad grade and Lorelai's first instinct was to blame the school is kind of a problem. 

The trouble was neither Rory or Lorelai were likeable during that arc. Rory looked weak-willed and lazy for dropping out of Yale after one conversation, swanning around sponging off her grandparents and partying with Logan. I actually think having a "Rory falls from grace" arc was a good idea because she had been such a special snowflake before but they didn't develop it well. They could have built up Rory failing throughout Season 5 - Stars Hollow is disappointed in her after the Dean/Lindsay fall out, she struggles with her classes, she doesn't do well on the paper, continues to feel insecure about Logan's lifestyle/casual dating rather than him falling at her feet - and had Mitchum as the last straw rather than the only issue. She would have appeared sympathetic after a season of failure rather than someone who crumples at the first barrier and is dependent on constant praise.

But then Lorelai also looked unsympathetic because she froze out Rory the moment she didn't conform to the perfect daughter mould and mirrored Richard and Emily's treatment of her in the past. (And imo getting pregnant and running away from home is worse than stealing a yacht and dropping out of College. Yeah Lorelai ended up working her way up and becoming a successful businesswoman, but she was pretty lucky in Mia supporting her early on and at the time Emily/Richard had no reason to believe things would work out that well for Lorelai. At least Rory could go back after dropping out, although the criminal record was an issue). And Lorelai's reaction definitely confirmed she couldn't deal with Rory not being that amazing, over-achieving angel child. Which we already saw in her reaction when Rory considered staying at SH High, dated Jess and considered Yale over Harvard. Lorelai was the cool, "democratic" mom if Rory was doing what Lorelai planned.

Of course rather than the show concluding that arc with the two of them addressing their faults - Rory's inability to face criticism and Lorelai being a control freak - the writers swept the whole conflict under a rug.

Edited July 24, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[TimetravellingBW]

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Sleeping with Christopher was absolutely unforgivable, and as said before, the marriage was a farce, with her constantly trying to convince herself it was what she wanted. Her behavior as Chris' wife reminded me of a quirky trophy wife, because she placed weird demands on Christopher to prove his love by staying in SH, not changing traditions, etc. Also as mentioned above, she was a poor stepparent to the younger girl, which is more of a stereotypical notion of the trophy wife. Not the Sherry type, trying to get the stepkid's love, but the indifferent stepmother.

 

2 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I haven't seen the last season in quite some time, before the revival- when we actually get a date!- I might rewatch but I do remember that Chris was trying to officially date and she was holding him off but then she did some debut thing with Emily for kids at the Inn or something and at the end of that episode, she went to his apartment and agreed to start dating? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As for Gigi, she was pretty terrible to the little girl. I wonder about the Christmas thing? Did they hold off everything? I mean, it seems like now once Thanksgiving is over, all the Christmas stuff is out in full force but I wonder if they held off on letting Gigi do certain things, like meeting Santa and all that. What I find funny is that Rory comes home from London and Lorelai is all, "we saved Christmas to celebrate with you!" and then she finds out Rory did celebrate with Logan because she sees her new earrings.

Ugh I hate everything about Lorelai's relationship with Christopher in Season 7. She was clearly just playing along and in denial believing that they could work out, while refusing to accommodate him in any area of her life. Which we'd ALREADY SEEN way back in Season 2 with Max. It was exactly the same thing: Lorelai convinces herself she can marry him/doesn't fit him into her lifestyle or Stars Hollow world/is obviously in love with Luke/things fall apart. It was a pointless rehash that made Lorelai look a horribly selfish person who had zero character development over nearly 6 years. (And I only vaguely remember too but yeah I think she held back from officially getting together with Christopher). 

Plus yes Gigi was so obviously an afterthought while Rory dominated Lorelai's priorities, even though Rory was now an adult who had left home, while you'd think that Lorelai choosing to marry Christopher would imply she'd accepted fulltime parenting responsibilities of Gigi.

Edited July 24, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[katha]

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Of course rather than the show concluding that arc with the two of them addressing their faults - Rory's inability to face criticism and Lorelai being a control freak - the writers swept the whole conflict under a rug.

 

I think what was also only ever partly addressed is Rory's dreams to be a journalist and how her personality structure plays into that. Jess was the first one to (IMO rightly) voice a bit of skepticism if being a foreign correspondent is really something Rory would excel at. Lorelai's extreme sheltering, her tendency to stay in denial about Rory's faults didn't help there either, they also never showed discussions between them a la "Ok, you want to be a journalist. Then you need to be very proactive, be able to organize yourself, be able to strike up connections with people on your own, be able to take very public criticism, be able to work in chaotic circumstances and with tight deadlines. Are you sure you can do that?" That never happened with Rory and Lorelai, at least it wasn't shown.

Perhaps re-tooling into a different kind of journalism would have been better, but there's also drawbacks for someone like Rory. With the new media there are constantly fewer secure positions, hustling as a freelancer often is the norm, the competition is fierce, as reviewer or opinion writer you're constantly attacked for your articles (on social media in particular) as well. Could Rory deal with that if she already crumbled with the ballerina? Even though Mitchum didn't go about his criticism in the best way, I think his comment that she'd do well as an assistant wasn't so off base. As administrator or organizer somewhere in an institution or company, she'd have a level of external structure and security that for me alwas seemed necessary for Rory to be productive.

Edited July 24, 2016 by katha

[TimetravellingBW]

Yeah the only development from Rory dropping out was her pursuing that internship which vanished by Season 7 anyway. Otherwise, there was no growth from any characters. And 100% agree that they should have adjusted Rory's dreams of becoming a foreign correspondent, she didn't seem like someone who loved investigating, working under pressure and being confrontational. (About the only time we saw her "investigating" a story was the Life and Death Brigade). She was far more methodical, organized and cooperative. If she stayed in journalism I could see her being a good editor or maybe working in the arts/entertainment area, if she put her and Lorelai's witty commentaries to good use but not an overseas, in-depth, on-site correspondent.

More realistically with how the traditional journalism industry is shrinking, Rory would have been better off in a different field altogether. I agree some kind of administrator or organizer would work, she likes schedules and structure. (I always find it amusing that Lorelai's job as manager of an inn and event coordinator was actually very similar to what Emily did for Richard running the house and organizing parties. So that kind of thing runs in the family). I could also see Rory excelling in publishing: It's about editing and attention to detail and is more thorough and less rushed than journalism. Although to be fair publishing kind of ended up being Jess's thing and it is also a shrinking field. Or, as Rory loved literature and school so much, why not go all out, do her Masters and PhD and become a professor/academic? She seems to fit more in an office writing papers on Chaucer or in a lecture hall discussing Ayn Rand than on the ground in Iraq.  Both those fields feed her love for reading, which she appeared more passionate about than current affairs and travel.

Also switching career plans from when you're a young teen to college student is freaking realistic. They could have connected her S6 freak out/bailing on Yale with realising she didn't enjoy/fit journalism, before returning with a new goal and plan. From personal experience, I looked into journalism because I enjoyed reading and writing but much preferred Marketing/Communications because it was more creative, about team work and a bigger field. But journalism is a very "obvious" career choice that I think a lot of people - especially humanities majors - default to. And I think the show focused on that because it's a more exciting, flashy job: They could get stories out of Rory writing for the Chilton/Yale paper and investigating leads, not so much to show if she started off wanting to be a publisher or professor. (Or even any science/medical/business career). But after all Rory switched from the life-long dream of Harvard to Yale, I'd have liked to see her grapple with realizing the journalism dream she and Lorelai cherished for so long didn't suit her. That's what happens in life.

Edited July 24, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[patchwork]

Rory adjusting her career goals seemed to be where things where heading in seasons 4 and 5, during the split in 6 I was waiting for that very special episode where she realises that while there's many aspects of journalism she enjoys Mitchum had a point about her personality. I don't think she needed to change careers completely, the show harped on about her being a great writer and based on what Doyle said when she officially became a YDN features writer the lesson in Die Jerk stuck, but she should have let go of the foreign correspondent dream. Changing course to something more realistic and attainable is part of growing up.  

I have some hope that the revival might come through on this front. However many years on Rory reassessing her career seems like a logical storyline for her character. 

Lorelai knew that sleeping with Chris was one of the few things Luke wouldn't forgive her for. I don't think she went over to Chris' place consciously intending to do it but as she said to Sookie she needed her relationship with Luke to be over with no possible chance of recovery. Her marriage was nothing but a rebound taken to extreme and the saddest part about it was that she dragged Gigi along for the ride. Different kid but exactly the situation Anna was afraid would happen. 

...Anna, now there's a character I'd happily punch in the throat. 

[FictionLover]

I never thought Lorelai froze out Rory for not going back to school but more of she how manipulated her grandfather with tears to have a place to live and someone to take care of her.  Not to mention that she moved out without a word to her mother...the same thing she did to her grandparents when she argued with her grandmother. I definitely had more of a problem with Rory than Lorelai in this storyline.

[photo fox]

My biggest problem with Lorelai is that she went nuclear so quickly. It was summer. There was time. Rory had just had a horrible week (by her own hand, I'll grant you). Give it a couple of weeks, and then bring up other schools, other majors. But basically telling your own child who is going through a crisis that she doesn't have a home with you anymore unless she follows your plan for her life is awful.

Frankly, it's Mitchum levels of awful.

[FictionLover]

Yeah, she freaked out and she was shocked at Rory's rash decision over one opinion. And her reasoning not to take a break was the same advise Rory gave Dean; you won't go back, you'll lose momentum.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Rory had just had a horrible week (by her own hand, I'll grant you). Give it a couple of weeks, and then bring up other schools, other majors. But basically telling your own child who is going through a crisis that she doesn't have a home with you anymore unless she follows your plan for her life is awful.

You know, I actually disagree a little.  Rory wants to be an adult?  Let her face adult consequences for her actions. 

Rory spiraled pretty darn quickly, and if I were her parent, I would be extremely alarmed at what I was seeing and hearing from her.  I think laying down the law immediately was needed.  I agree that the situation was handled poorly in that Lorelai made light of the arrest, probably leading Rory to think her mother would let things slide somewhat.  This probably goes back to Lorelai's overall trouble in being unable to delineate her role of mom v. friend with her daughter.  Rory was looking to her mother to be her friend, and Lorelai was acting like a parent.         

Edited July 24, 2016 by txhorns79

[hippielamb]

20 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Lorelai certainly wasn't a stellar stepmother to Gigi. Who would make a 3-5 year old child wait to celebrate Christmas until her adult biological daughter was home? She also wasn't too keen on fixing up Rory's room for her, while refusing to move!

That bothered me because Lorelai had shown a previous interest in Gigi's well being back in season 6. I understand that Rory will always be her priority, that makes sense. But she was all gung ho to bond with April yet Gigi who is her stepdaughter and Rory's little sister is ignored? It's not clear how long Gigi stayed in Paris with her mom. If she spent Xmas with her or not, it would make sense since Lor & Chris weren't celebrating the holiday until after Rory returned. It bothered me that Lorelai didn't consider where Gigi was going to sleep. Part of this is on Chris too. They should have definitely discussed Gigi before taking the plunge. 

19 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

When exactly did her "Friend first! Mom second!" attitude kick in? Because you just can't have that parenting style regarding toddlers and younger kids. I imagine Rory had to be at least 11 or 12 before Lorelai could engage with her as an equal and friend. Before that she would have had to have a decent discipline/rules system that any kid needs, although she wouldn't have forced the strict, pernickety rules Emily did and probably gave Rory a fair amount of freedom and independence. (Partly out of necessity as a single parent). So Rory's maturity and responsible nature was probably influenced by Lorelai treating her as a grown up early on but her studiousness and introverted personality was just natural. 

 I think when Rory was a toddler Lorelai would have had to set some rules but they were made to be fun. Like, lets play a game and pick up your toys/books, or lets brush our teeth together. Lorelai would've been 18-19 at this point and probably tried to make it fun and something they did together. I think once Rory started school it was more of a democracy. 

 

9 hours ago, FictionLover said:

I never thought Lorelai froze out Rory for not going back to school but more of she how manipulated her grandfather with tears to have a place to live and someone to take care of her.  Not to mention that she moved out without a word to her mother...the same thing she did to her grandparents when she argued with her grandmother. I definitely had more of a problem with Rory than Lorelai in this storyline.

I did too, Fiction Lover. Part of it is I view Rory's storylines with a parental eye, and can easily relate to Lorelai's story. When Rory snaps at her mom "You never went to college", I want to slap her. No, she didn't go to college because she was busy raising a kid. OY That begins the Rory is an ungrateful brat storyline that I really don't like. I don't want to be annoyed with Rory, she's one of the protagonists but damn if she didn't tick me off during that time.