Season 12 Spoilers, Speculation and Anticipation

[secnarf]

8 hours ago, Haleysgalaxy said:

 

Is it confirmed that Prentiss was originally going to be gay or is it speculation? That is very interesting. 

I hadn't heard anything about that, but I will say in my head she's always been :P I don't know why exactly, I just find it very easy to picture.

Reid was originally supposed to be bisexual, though.

[smoker]

I'll be happy if this show doesn't get another season, WTF, I will be jumping of happiness if they only make it till winter holidays, but we can't forget we got a 12th season  after one of the most horrid seasons in the history of tv, but if they even renewed CM: BB for God's sake! 

Edited August 26, 2016 by smoker

[Willowy]

Matthew does have a great work ethic, but if he was really that miserable at work, he wouldn't stay. Nobody's forcing him to sign his contract. He's pretty high-profile on a major network show, and that has afforded him the ability to do indie films and smaller projects that he loves. 

I'll celebrate Matthew's tenure on Criminal Minds as long as he wants to stay, but I'm sure it's no torture. He's got a pretty sweet deal, especially if this year is like last and he gets to take 3 additional weeks off during the season, in addition to the regular 3 month hiatus that everyone gets, with six other weeks off for mini hiatuses. All while getting paid very well.

[ForeverAlone]

I personally don't think Matthew is staying with Criminal Minds out of any sense of obligation. I think he's staying there because it's an easy multi-million dollar a year paycheck. And if that is the case, I certainly can't begrudge him for that. I'd probably do the same thing. 

[Droogie]

MGG has said he would stay until they didn't want him any longer or the show was over, whichever came first.  He has also said he has a crippling sense of obligation and would never consider going back on his word.  So yes, I think he would stay out of obligation, past the point of misery. 

[ReidFan]

Matthew won't ever need to worry about money. *shrug* He picks and chooses the little indie films he wants to do during hiatus purely because he *wants* to. And with CM, he gets to direct. Guy's got it made if CM dies tomorrow, or goes on for another ten years. I don't think it's ever been about the financial aspect for him, given his family/background/etc. He just wants to entertain, wants to be creative and as Droogie says, has been instilled all his life with the work ethic he has.

[smoker]

sure he got a lot of money from his modeling career, but I didn't know about  his family patrimony

[Droogie]

4 minutes ago, smoker said:

sure he got a lot of money from his modeling career, but I didn't know about  his family patrimony

Oh yeah, smoker.  He's a silver spooner.  A silver spooner with a staunch work ethic, but still.

[ReidFan]

3 minutes ago, Droogie said:

Oh yeah, smoker.  He's a silver spooner.  A silver spooner with a staunch work ethic, but still.

one of the things I love about him. Might be filthy rich through the parents, but still lives on his own, drives a pretty modest vehicle and doesn't have (domestic)'help' (in an interview--mighta been the coveteur piece but I don't recall exactly--he was asked (because the interviewer had gone to his house for the interview, and was shown the huge beautifully equipped kitchen) if he had a housekeeper or cook, and he laughed and said no, what little was done around the place was all him as he made some self deprecating comments about his housekeeping/laundry and cooking skills-or lack thereof. 

[Willowy]

Right, his family is old time Las Vegas money. He'll never want for anything. :)

I disagree Droogie, that he'd stay at CM if he was in misery. Saying something off the cuff years ago, and then slavishly committing to that thing under untenable circumstances are two vastly different things. I don't believe Matthew's the type of person that can operate that way. He needs to feel a sense of accomplishment and joy in his work, and there have been times when his contract negotiations have been down to the wire. He's no martyr, and while he never comes across as the conceited sort, he knows his worth.

[ForeverAlone]

One of Matthew's cars may be a modest old station wagon, but his other car has a starting value of $100,000. This is not to say anything is wrong with that, because he certainly makes enough money to spend it how he wants. It's just to point out that he does have his expensive tastes. 

I've never gotten the impression Matthew lives off his parents' money, but rather he makes his own way in the world. And if that is so, he could certainly benefit from staying at a job that makes him more than $2 million a year. When I said he likely stays at the job for the ease of money, it was not some sort of disparagement. Matthew can afford to focus on smaller indie projects if he has a nice, constant salary to fall back on. And it certainly sounds more palatable for some if he says he is staying at Criminal Minds out of a sense of loyalty and obligation, rather than he enjoys the easy money he makes on that show. He knows it isn't going to last forever, so why not make as much as he can while he can? 

[Droogie]

Well, we will agree to disagree, Franky.  Matthew has said multiple times that he values his word and that he prides himself on honesty.  So I definitely think he would stay out of obligation, especially since he said he would do so.  Based on his past behavior and things he has said, he would not reneg on his word to stay the course.  He may hope in his heart that the show comes to an end, but I do not see him bailing before the curtain falls on the series.

[Willowy]

Bottom line, it's a business. And while Matthew considers them all his family, I'm sure he knows that bond exceeds the confines of the bullpen. I mentioned above that he knows his worth, and I don't think he would consider it reneging if they didn't hold up their end of the bargain by letting the 'family' become so fractured. Not that he's one to place blame, but he's also said many times that he doesn't do "real life" well. And these past weeks have surely been that. 

Your are decidedly welcome to your opinion, and I've come to think quite highly of you so I'm happy to leave it at us disagreeing. :) My opinion is just that Matthew would be extremely practical by now in his business dealings, where things can and do change at the drop of a hat. 

[secnarf]

I don't see why there can't be an element of both. I can also see him (or any of the remaining cast) being reluctant to leave at this point because the show just lost two central characters.

FWIW, I have trouble understanding why any actor would want to leave a job that brings in over a million dollars a year, if they don't have anything else lined up when they leave. I think I would have to be unbelievably miserable to even contemplate it.

[normasm]

8 hours ago, Old Dog said:

 

And technically the show started off with 2 women - JJ wasn't in the pilot and Garcia was only a minor recurring character. Gosh I miss that strong and sparky Garcia - what a caricature they have made of her. Such a shame

Yeah, but one of those women was the kickass Elle. I do agree, those early episodes with JJ and Garcia together helping profile from the office while the  "guys" we're in the field added an element of collaboration that was realistic and at times exciting. Very little running around with guns in the dark.

[SSAHotchner]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:51 AM, Old Dog said:

I wonder if they are over estimating Paget Brewster's fanbase if they are bringing her back to helm the team? I know she has a very vocal band of fans but I wonder if she will be enough to keep the Power Puff Girls Show going. I liked Prentiss very much as a character up until the ridiculous spy arc - after that I thought PB's performance in Season 7 before she left was distinctly lacklustre and the two episodes since where she has returned have been simply awful.

I love Paget and I would like to see her back on Criminal Minds, if I were going to watch without Hotch, which I don't want to do. I don't blame her at all for season 6 or 7. I blame the writers and Erica. I also feel that Paget's displeasure at having to come back for 7 because of the contract, in spite of how hot they were to get rid of her in 6, came through her character. Prentiss was in the same boat as Paget. She enjoyed being back with her co-workers and friends, but the job just wasn't for her anymore. 

[SparedTurkey]

Quote

That may make the show different enough to warrant a new title because it will no longer be "Criminal Minds."

Quote

The "Girl Squad" holds no appeal for me at all - they will need to call it something else. "Action Girls in Kevlar". "Girls with Guns". "3 Action Women and The Black Queen".

I gotta say I really do not understand why having more females than males on the show makes it not Criminal Minds anymore. Is it somehow more like the 'real BAU' to watch Morgan, Hotch, Gideon and Rossi break down doors for 10+ years? Is it really a bad thing that there are more females even though 'it's not like the real BAU' (which, lets be honest, this show has never been realistic). I get that everyone loves Reid to the exclusion of everyone else but maybe be happy that something good came out of the firing? Aside from maybe Rizzoli and Isles (and a couple of pommy shows i watch) im not sure there has been a mainstream procedural with more women than men and hasn't been a regular sausage fest.

Quote

Is it confirmed that Prentiss was originally going to be gay or is it speculation? That is very interesting. 

I'm pretty sure it was KV who mentioned there was going to be a scene where Prentiss gets out of bed to go to a case and the camera was going to pan up to a woman in the bed. I think it was her. Either way I remember hearing it from someone actually connected with the show and not as 'specuation'.

[Old Dog]

7 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I gotta say I really do not understand why having more females than males on the show makes it not Criminal Minds anymore. Is it somehow more like the 'real BAU' to watch Morgan, Hotch, Gideon and Rossi break down doors for 10+ years? Is it really a bad thing that there are more females even though 'it's not like the real BAU' (which, lets be honest, this show has never been realistic). I get that everyone loves Reid to the exclusion of everyone else but maybe be happy that something good came out of the firing? Aside from maybe Rizzoli and Isles (and a couple of pommy shows i watch) im not sure there has been a mainstream procedural with more women than men and hasn't been a regular sausage fest.

The point is that for years Criminal Minds has been eroded away into a generic action show. Many of us have complained for years that Erica Messers' vision for the show is to make it more like Alias where the main character is a strong female international spy. We have seen her change the tenor of the show into a generic action cop show focused on the women cast and we have seen the international spy theme introduced and now of course we see Beyond Boredom with its international theme. It feels like with Hotch going that pretty much the last vestiges of the brilliant, unique and cerebral show about profiling it began as has gone. It is a different show entirely just hanging under the name of CM. It really isn't about the women - if the show were its old self it wouldn't matter that the balance of cast was skewed male or female. The truth is that Messer wanted an action, international female led show and she has got it - but it is not Criminal Minds which is why so many of us who have watched for the last decade feel this latest shake up really is the end of our beloved show. I understand that there is a new generation of viewers who really enjoy the shallower, showy and more action led show it has become and that's fine but it isn't Criminal Minds. It's not about the women and I dislike that any criticism of the cast change results in feminist arguments. The fact that I have little interest in watching a generic female led show is my choice but it's the poor writing and generic nature of the show that leads my choice. I miss the clever show and brilliant writing it used to be. I have hung on for MGG for the last 4 seasons - but somehow with Hotch gone I am not sure I can hang on any more as this is such a different show now. Girls with guns, not BAU with profiles - and sausage or no sausage is not the real point.

[SparedTurkey]

3 hours ago, Old Dog said:

It's not about the women and I dislike that any criticism of the cast change results in feminist arguments.

I'm not saying that everyone has to like the show. God knows I haven't watched it in years since the salary induced firings of AJ Cook and Paget Brewster. The few episodes I have seen since haven't been that good either. That said, because there has clearly been a radical change and they are bringing back at least one previous character I'm not willing to just throw the baby out with the bath water. I am saying I think the one positive thing about these changes is now the show is different to  CSI/NCIS/Insert primetime drama here. You may not agree with or like the cast changes and thats fine. But calling it nothing but Girls in Kevlar and bemoaning a lack of profiling because there are girls involved - especially when there isn't anything to support that - perhaps that is what is coming across as something worth criticising.

[Old Dog]

3 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

  You may not agree with or like the cast changes and thats fine. But calling it nothing but Girls in Kevlar and bemoaning a lack of profiling because there are girls involved - especially when there isn't anything to support that - perhaps that is what is coming across as something worth criticising.

But I'm not doing that. As I said quite clearly before, had the show remained the clever and intelligent show it started as and if the female characters were still as well written I wouldn't give a rat's ass if they were all female. But it isn't and they are not. We now have a sub par action show where the female characters and their abilities have been pumped up beyond credence, and where the male cast are too often sidelined, mocked or missing. I'm a Criminal Minds fan through and through but the show has drifted too far from its roots. And it is not because any of the cast are women but what we are actually left with would indeed seem to be  Girls in Kevlar. Sadly. I would be thrilled if some miracle happened and the writing suddenly took a leap forward and this mainly female cast were written as credible, likeable characters in thrilling stories about profiling and the criminal mind.  Forgive me if I fear that we will just get more and more girls hurtling through dark sets shooting, more OTT cartoonish computer techs, more sappy bookends that are unrelated to the episodes trying to portray an overly sugary "family" vibe. Lots of people enjoy that sort of thing and that is OK. For me, I enjoyed Criminal Minds.

And there have been many, many shows full of powerful women - Rizzoli and Eyles, Unforgettable, Bones, Shades of Blue, Stalker, The Closer, Quantico etc etc. It seems to be the done thing now to head up procedurals with strong women. Nothing wrong with that - but not if it's not done in spirit of the show.

I should add that if you have indeed not watched the show since the AJ/PB fiasco in Season 6 then really you cannot realise or comment on how different the show and the nature of the characters have become from how they were in the early seasons nor understand the frustration of those of us who have hung on grimly hoping for better things.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Old Dog

[Danielg342]

I think there may be a good chance the new female-led CM would be good. I thought Tara got more rounded as S11 progressed, as did JJ, and if Erica Messer can tap into what made Prentiss so good, she'd be more than adequate as Hotch's replacement. We're still working on Garcia, but I have reason to be (somewhat) optimistic.

[smoker]

2 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I am saying I think the one positive thing about these changes is now the show is different to  CSI/NCIS/Insert primetime drama here. 

CM was a different show by itself before these cheapy action movie effects. That's an empirical fact. I don't like the "Alias style" either. I understand there are people enjoying the new tone but I think it's ordinary and it has nothing to do with the spirit of the show in the first place. There are a lot of action tv shows better in quality and more original out there. Alias itself was a vanilla version of Nikita. 

Agree with @Old Dog. It's not about the amount of women per se. It's about not being the BAU anymore.

Edited August 27, 2016 by smoker

[smoker]

I saw this picture on twitter, it let me thinking if they could be looking for Hotch :'(

Edited August 27, 2016 by smoker

[JMO]

28 minutes ago, smoker said:

I saw this picture on twitter, it let me thinking if they could be looking for Hotch :'(

Guess BJ doesn't realize that Quantico is already in Virginia.

[smoker]

Isn't it in Maryland? sorry I am not even sure if Maryland is another state or a big city inside Virginia

[JMO]

4 minutes ago, smoker said:

Isn't it in Maryland? sorry I am not even sure if Maryland is another state or a big city inside Virginia

Quantico is in Virginia, south of Washington DC.  Virginia is the state that surrounds Washington DC, mostly to the south.  Maryland is a separate state, which surrounds Washington DC, mostly to the north. Washington is a city, located in the 'District of Columbia', and is not, technically, located in a state.

[smoker]

1 minute ago, JMO said:

Quantico is in Virginia, south of Washington DC.  Virginia is the state that surrounds Washington DC, mostly to the south.  Maryland is a separate state, which surrounds Washington DC, mostly to the north. Washington is a city, located in the 'District of Columbia', and is not, technically, located in a state.

aaah so WDC is in two different states, Thank you JMO! it was confusing when I heard about it on tv or some film

[wknt3]

14 minutes ago, smoker said:

Isn't it in Maryland? sorry I am not even sure if Maryland is another state or a big city inside Virginia

Maryland is another state, but not one of the important ones. ;-) It is mostly a suburb of Washington DC but it does have Baltimore (Homicide:LOTS, The Wire) Although compared to Deleware whose biggest attraction is the place where JCPenney sends their damaged merchandise it does look pretty good...

[JMO]

It's not actually in either state.  It is completely its own entity.  Sort of like the city-state of the Vatican, within Italy.  

[wknt3]

2 minutes ago, smoker said:

aaah so WDC is in two different states, Thank you JMO! it was confusing when I heard about it on tv or some film

Actually it's not in any state. DC stands for District of Columbia it's own separate entity created so no state could claim the capital. As the country and the government has grown the metro area and government area have spread out so there are offices in Virgina, West Virginia, and Maryland and much of those states feel like suburbs of WDC. I imagine it's very confusing to those from other countries as it's confusing to many Americans.

[smoker]

thank you guys! yes, it's confusing but with your extra explanation I got it now :D

[Willowy]

I'll agree that they are different shows than in the beginning, changing around the end of season 4, imo. The difference with me is that I like both the old and the newer. That doesn't make me "shallow" or dim-witted, and I fully acknowledge stinkers like '200', etc...

I've chosen to enjoy the ride because I love our heroes in the BAU. Suggesting that only the old way is any good makes me wonder why those that feel that way have hung on for eight solid years, fully knowing that it wasn't going to go back. Some people can't deal with any type of change and I understand that, but like it or not, television has changed, and Criminal Minds changed with it. It will likely change even more with the absence of Derek Morgan and Hotch.

[zannej]

I miss the show the way it was when I first became interested in it. I think it took a long time to finally accept that it will never be that special intellectual program again. I was sad and angry at first, but now I'm somewhat apathetic.

I know other fans are still grieving though.

[Old Dog]

Oh change is good. Development is good. New characters are good. I liked it when Rossi started. I thought Blake was a great fit for the show and was sorry when she left. What I dislike is change without credibility, retconning without logic or continuity and I dislike that what made the show special has been eroded away until we are left with just another action procedural. What drew me to CM when it started was that it was actually clever and different - now I know lots of people like the more undemanding explosive action nature of the current show where the viewer doesn't need to think much but shows like that are ten a penny. What has kept me hanging on is love for some of the characters and although most of the time the show frustrates the hell out of me, we do get one or two episodes a season where you get  glimpse of a clever show with good writing. Television HAS changed it's true - mostly dumbed down sadly. I know it will never go back to how it was - the characters should have grown and developed. If only they had grown and developed them believably - or as is so often the case with Reid, grown and developed him at all! If only they would continue to write Reid as he was in Entropy or at the end of last season but it won't be long before they revert to showing him as the wet behind the ears kid he was at the start.

[Willowy]

10 minutes ago, Old Dog said:

If only they would continue to write Reid as he was in Entropy or at the end of last season but it won't be long before they revert to showing him as the wet behind the ears kid he was at the start.

Yeah, I don't think so. It seems to me like they're finally responding regarding Reid. I'm not thinking we'll see much of the 'kid brother' this coming season. Hopefully.

[Old Dog]

I'm not holding my breath! We've seen it before - we had a great grown up Reid back in the days of The Uncanny Valley then they revert back like Virgil Williams did in Season 9's Rabid. Some of these writers simply do not know how to develop a character like Reid.

[Mysteyman]

It would be quite a trick to present Reid as wet behind the ears after 12 seasons.

personally, I do not see the slightest hint that they are planning to do that.

It would not make much sense.

[JMO]

For me, the issue is that the 'action show', of any sort, by anyone, starring anyone, on any network, doesn't interest me at all.  I'm all for intellectual stimulation.  If I liked both, and especially if I liked them equally, I would be far less dissatisfied with the changes in CM.  Maybe I'd even enjoy them.  But I don't like action shows, and I didn't sign on for one.  So CM has disappointed me by changing its nature (without my permission!). I still watch, for Reid.  Maybe it's a little like staying in a bad marriage because of the children.  Once my youngest has moved out, I'm filing for divorce. 

As to Reid, I will cross my fingers, which is as likely to work as relying on the remaining writing staff.  They don't know how to write his intelligence without making him seem strange, instead of capable.  And then they persist in throwing in a dose of naivete.  A genius in his mid-thirties, doing the work he does, and having experienced the things he's experienced, should be anything but naive.

[Willowy]

I'm hoping with the loss of both of his male 'protectors' - both a father figure, and a brother - that they'll continue to let Spencer develop as a grown man. They did well with that last season, and even though he's always an emotional character, I don't think we'll have him off in the corner in the fetal position sucking his thumb. 

If he loses both of them AND his mother, though? We could be in for some pretty intense situations with Reid. 

[Old Dog]

Apart from a couple of episodes it is hard to remember anything from the very lacklustre season 11 but an example of how they persist in making Reid still naive is the over the top way they showed him react to Morgan having left - when Morgan was still living locally and they indicated that Reid would be involved in Hank Morgan;s life. As JMO says after 13 years in the FBI and doing the job he does Reid really should have no need of either a "father or brother protector" - he really should be settled in his own skin. Yet they persist in making him seem weaker than the others. I do worry about how they write him now that Sharon Lee Watson has moved on.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Old Dog

[Willowy]

Huh. So you'd rather see Reid should just transform suddenly into a rigid automaton with no reactions when his friends, and the people he looks up to most, leave or die? He does lean on his co-workers more than the others, always has. Part of his endearment to me is his vulnerability. I didn't think he was over the top at all in his reaction to Morgan leaving, I thought it was sweet, and in-character. 

He can still be his own man while having and expressing feelings.

[Old Dog]

Morgan had already been off for six months and yet they showed Reid reacting when he finally left as though he had died. Of course Reid's caring nature is attractive but he should be more of a grown up now after all these years in the job than they often show him. He has shown he has guts and ability and they should remember that when writing for him. And the others have often leaned on him in the past - Hotch over his divorce, Blake when she was weighing up leaving, JJ over the 200 nonsense etc etc. He really should not be shown as significantly weaker.

[ReidFan]

LOL....I was in the process of writing a reply and have just <highlight & delete> the whole thing cause, Ole Doggie, you just said it better than I could have 

[JMO]

I've read through it twice now, and I still can't see the words 'rigid automaton' in Old Dog's post.  Not sure where that came from.

I thought Reid's reaction to Morgan's leaving was legit, because we all know that it is hard to keep up with old friends who are no longer in our daily lives as a matter of course.  It was an ending of sorts, and I thought it was okay.  

But I didn't think it was okay that he was mocked by his coworkers behind his back.  That a writer, director and any number of producers thought that was okay, disappointed me greatly.  I found it very telling about how they see the character.

[Willowy]

Yeah I was going for the exact opposite of emotional, guess that didn't translate well, JMO. In any case, as irritating as Rossi et al mocking Reid was, there's no shortage of love for him. They all love him and he them and I see nothing wrong in the loss of them actuating an emotional response from him. 

[Willowy]

27 minutes ago, Old Dog said:

 He has shown he has guts and ability and they should remember that when writing for him. 

They wrote that for him, too.

[ReidFan]

which is, in part, why this is all so freakin' frustrating!!!

[Bookish Jen]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:07 PM, Droogie said:

Oh yeah, smoker.  He's a silver spooner.  A silver spooner with a staunch work ethic, but still.

Silver spoon, wooden spoon or no spoon at all, most of us have a staunch work ethic, doesn't make one a special snowflake.

Anyway, I think what is so troubling with the current state of CM and how it treats Reid as a character is how he has regressed, not progressed over the years, especially in the past few seasons. Sure, there has been some flashes of brilliance, maturity and wisdom on Reid's part, but they are so few and far between.

Early on during CM's run, it made sense for Reid, as a young man and new to the BAU, to be a bit insecure, and look for mentoring from Gideon, Hotch, Rossi and Morgan. But now he is a man with a long list of impressive accomplishments, talents, skills and educational achievements that truly make him a notable character that means a lot to us. Sure, I expect him to mourn Gideon, miss seeing Morgan at work, and will probably deal with some issues pertaining to Hotch no longer being with the BAU, not to mention the changes within the BAU as a whole.  But I want to see him dealing with these developments with some clarity and maturity, not in a childish way that renders him completely incompetent.

I also want peace on earth, a winning lottery ticket and a pony...those things ain't happening either.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Bookish Jen

[Willowy]

The only time I remember seeing him regress and be rendered incompetent was Zugzwang. That was an exception, not the norm. He was still mourning in Magnum Opus, and off-duty, but he still came through for the team. In The Forever People he was unable to help JJ find her words, but still helped her in the end. 

I guess that goes to show that even though he's off his game, he still figures it all out. That's our genius. 

[normasm]

In the aftermath of Zugzwang and Magnum Opus, the writers gave Reid a few moments where it was obvious he wasn't back to normal. When Morgan and he were out at a crime scene, Morgan told Hotch on the phone he didn't know what Creek it was, with Reid right there, not chiming in with the info. He seemed to be obsessively checking on JJ in All That Remains, and they checking on him (Morgan, offscreen: "Reid, you ready?" When he needed him, instead of Reid staying with her). When Rossi says the odds of something are one in a billion, Reid says, "Close enough." I appreciated that. I do think the writers have tried to do service to the most complex character on the show, Reid. But, and this is not all on the writers, TPTB want the story to move along, and in recent years, they have also wanted it to be all about the Unsub. It's so much easier to pick a known paraphilia and write some unsavory story, maybe even try to make the Unsub sympathetic, than to write the detective work and the psychological profiling that the BAU would have to do in order to understand the motives behind, say, the girl in Uncanny Valley, or the psycho at the root of LDSK. It's not all on the writers or the show runners that the story of the Behavioral Analysis Unit has taken second and third and sometimes not-even-in-the-room place to the salacious subject of the Unsub.