S05.E20: Bad Night

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, theatremouse said:

The problem with this is boatloads of people have been calling that since the moment they announced a post-body-switch pregnancy. Even if that were where the writers originally intended to go, it's shit since it was predicted overwhelmingly right away. They keep thinking they're all clever with their "twists" but they're tremendously obvious in a very boring pattern. Fuck, at this point I'd prefer "it was all a dream" to the dreck they're rolling out.

Not dead Juliette Eve as the biological mother of Kelly (maybe), does not change the fact she set up Momma Grimm and the neighbors to be killed, tried to kill Monroe and even more importantly, she burned down the Grimmabago!   

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

I don't understand Renard in all this.  At first they were making him out to be an unwitting pawn, now he's totally involved in the conspiracy.  And why would he publicly claim Kelly is his baby when it can be so easily exposed that he isn't?  Maybe we will find next week that he is deep under cover (and even that's a stretch, if Renard was putting on a show in his office, why didn't he motion for Nick outside to have a separate "real" conversation?), otherwise this guy needs to go.

I think Renard went undercover once Rachel and whatever the guy's name is left his house with the poster.  Here's my 2 cent theory!  Renard is all about order and control and he is not the man to be effed over, especially by Rachel who manipulated him for months with sex.  Remember when he shut down the wesen fighting back in s1?  If I'm right, lol, we will see a flashback scene of Renard and Meisner making plans to infiltrate BC, but Diana being back is a wildcard.

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

That was my point.  The idea of Juliette being Kelly's mother is not a bad twist, but it needed to come out a LONG time ago...like when Kelly was born.  Now it's already out there and when/if it happens, it isn't going to have any impact whatsoever.  For a show that is supposed to be full of suspense and surprise, it is sadly lacking in both.

Honestly, the only "shocking twist" that was a twist or even remotely shocking to me, was the reappearance of Mama Grimm at the end of season 1.  Even with that--I was binge watching the show at that point and, had I been watching it week by week, I probably could have seen it coming (plus, dead parent reappearing is a pretty standard trope as I've discovered).  Nick as a zombie?  We knew that was going to happen for 2 episodes.  Nick losing his powers?  We saw that one coming for 3. Juliette going batshit crazy and being shot by Trubel?  Half a season (maybe not the Trubel part)?  Juliette not being dead?  Some of us knew that the moment the arrows hit her.

Despite having an original-ish premise, this show is incredible reliant of tired tropes that we've all seen and telescoping plots that kill any possible suspense.

Nick NOT losing his powers would have been the better twist or at the very least temporary and they came back on their own, BEFORE Elisabeth's spells went into play.  There would have been no need for the nasty role play sex scenes...eww.....

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

In addition to everything else, I don't know how they come back from having portrayed Diana as being a basically demonic child with no soul or conscience. Making her terrifying even to her parents leaves us where? I don't want to see them kill off a child. I also don't want them to focus the show on rehabilitating a super-powered, semi-feral brat. And they've erased the whole business of her having been partly raised by Kelly(Nick's mom, not the baby), as well-- you'd think Kelly would have instilled in her some affection for Nick, and given her some kind of positive foundation. She has only been with Black Claw for a little while, but seems to have completely adopted their attitude and approach.

Diana can die any day now and take Kelly Jr. with her.  Adalind was complicit in killing Frau Pech in order to regain her powers and she sold the kid anyway to the Royal's!

[Syme]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

In addition to everything else, I don't know how they come back from having portrayed Diana as being a basically demonic child with no soul or conscience. 

Simple, she'll run for office!!!!!
{But only after she is a rich reality-TV star.......}

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Nick NOT losing his powers would have been the better twist or at the very least temporary and they came back on their own, BEFORE Elisabeth's spells went into play.  There would have been no need for the nasty role play sex scenes...eww.....

Diana can die any day now and take Kelly Jr. with her.  Adalind was complicit in killing Frau Pech in order to regain her powers and she sold the kid anyway to the Royal's!

Taking this over to the Everything Wrong Thread....

[ChromaKelly]

I'm not sure where to ask this but, I am so confused. 

Is Diana supposed to be 7 and us viewers are to ignore that she's really 2? Or is she in the show a rapidly aging freaky hexenchild?

[icewolf]

I think I would have preferred stupid sexy teenage Diana over the creepy horror movie child that we are getting.

Sexy Teen Diana might have been cliche as hell, but this supernatural horror movie child Diana freaks the hell out of me whenever she is onscreen. I doubt that is suppose to be intentional...

[Darklazr]

At this point, I would rather see CC play the dual roles of Adalind/Diana with one of them dead during the season Finale!

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

As far as I can tell, nobody has made mention of Diana's rapid growth in terms of magic. I think someone here said that Adalind saying how big she was didn't seem like a "Holy crap, you've tripled your age!" but more, "Oh, you're such a big girl now" in the normal kind of way.

Please let there be an older person possessing her. Let her not be Diana. Anything but this.

Frau Pech!

[DeeDee79]

I have so many mixed feelings about this episode. I'm angry that after wishing that Hank have a life of his own his girlfriend turns out to be a part of Black Claw. I'm disappointed that after so many seasons of waiting for the PTB to decide on what role Renard was to play they decide to make him a bad guy and Nick's enemy. I actually liked Adalind in this ep and empathized for her situation. A mother should never put a man above her kids; if she thought that she had to leave Nick and side with Renard to get Diana back I can't be mad at her for that no matter how much I don't like her.

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

That was my point.  The idea of Juliette being Kelly's mother is not a bad twist, but it needed to come out a LONG time ago...like when Kelly was born.  Now it's already out there and when/if it happens, it isn't going to have any impact whatsoever.  For a show that is supposed to be full of suspense and surprise, it is sadly lacking in both.

Honestly, the only "shocking twist" that was a twist or even remotely shocking to me, was the reappearance of Mama Grimm at the end of season 1.  Even with that--I was binge watching the show at that point and, had I been watching it week by week, I probably could have seen it coming (plus, dead parent reappearing is a pretty standard trope as I've discovered).  Nick as a zombie?  We knew that was going to happen for 2 episodes.  Nick losing his powers?  We saw that one coming for 3. Juliette going batshit crazy and being shot by Trubel?  Half a season (maybe not the Trubel part)?  Juliette not being dead?  Some of us knew that the moment the arrows hit her.

Despite having an original-ish premise, this show is incredible reliant of tired tropes that we've all seen and telescoping plots that kill any possible suspense.

For me it is somewhat of a twist that Renard is truly down with Black Claw's objectives.  I really thought they were going to show him to be playing along, and of course they still might.  It makes things very messy if he really is going against the rest of the whole gang.  I'm wondering if we're in for a twist of some sort with Meisner.  Because currently he is pretty much furniture. 

[DeeDee79]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

I'm wondering if we're in for a twist of some sort with Meisner.  Because currently he is pretty much furniture. 

I agree. I was interested to see how they would flesh out his character beyond the mysterious player working with Renard but they haven't given us anything. Which isn't surprising.

[Lii]

4 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I'm not sure where to ask this but, I am so confused. 

Is Diana supposed to be 7 and us viewers are to ignore that she's really 2? Or is she in the show a rapidly aging freaky hexenchild?

I don't know and the show's unwillingness to address this is seriously pissing me off. 

[OtterMommy]

4 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I'm not sure where to ask this but, I am so confused. 

Is Diana supposed to be 7 and us viewers are to ignore that she's really 2? Or is she in the show a rapidly aging freaky hexenchild?

 

That would be plot hole #98!  (By our count, at least!)

[neuromom]

11 hours ago, Darklazr said:

 

Diana can die any day now and take Kelly Jr. with her.  Adalind was complicit in killing Frau Pech in order to regain her powers and she sold the kid anyway to the Royal's!

This! Which is why all of Adalind's "I love you's" to Diana makes no sense to me. She didn't want the kid. And all of a sudden she's the center of her life? 

[ottilie]

well, there was no way to leave Diana in the show and also keep Adalind as a character. What would they have her and Renard do? would they have lived together? 

Would Adalind just drop her off at daycare and proceed like normal?

[OakGoblinFly]

I just cannot any more with this show.  I don't have the energy or desire to watch the rest of the reason.  The amount of stupid on display is staggering.

I think I just check the threads - they're vastly more entertaining than the show.

[mythoughtis]

In regards to Renard being with Black Claw.... think way back to an earlier season.  Renard started out as a shady character, an illegitimate Royal thrilled to having a Grimm to work for him in a Royal capacity (back when Grimms were known to work with Royals).  One of the episodes featured an old clip of Hitler woging.  I think that same episode showed each characters' innermost desires. Renards' was to be in a position of power on stage with cheers from the crowd. 

That's what is up with Renard these days. 

 

Yes, we are going to get stuck with JuliEve being the Mother of Kelly, and that is what will bring the full Juliette back.  She's already capable of coming back - hence her answer to Truble about Juliette's opinions ' Best not to go there'.  Adalind will use the loss of Kelly (and, I bet, the re-disappearance of Diana) to go back to being an evil witch.   Rosalee will come up with a cure for Wu.  Hank will never get a girl. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by mythoughtis

[Darklazr]

14 hours ago, ottilie said:

well, there was no way to leave Diana in the show and also keep Adalind as a character. What would they have her and Renard do? would they have lived together? 

Would Adalind just drop her off at daycare and proceed like normal?

Diana's death which still can happen, should have given us back villain Adalind.  She should be going after all of the Scooby gang and Renard for their role in turning Diana over to Kelly.  The Royal's should have sent their jundager's after Adalind for reneging on the deal to sell them Diana.  CC has the chops to play seductress and villain rolled in one.  Why isn't she seducing Conrad, etc... in order to get what she wants?

Renard does not need Adalind in order to have story or purpose on this show.

15 hours ago, neuromom said:

This! Which is why all of Adalind's "I love you's" to Diana makes no sense to me. She didn't want the kid. And all of a sudden she's the center of her life? 

LOL.  I don't want to get into the whole she sold her kid stuff, but she sold the kid for her powers!

[tpel]

On 5/15/2016 at 1:02 PM, Darklazr said:

I think Renard went undercover once Rachel and whatever the guy's name is left his house with the poster.  Here's my 2 cent theory!  Renard is all about order and control and he is not the man to be effed over, especially by Rachel who manipulated him for months with sex.  Remember when he shut down the wesen fighting back in s1?  If I'm right, lol, we will see a flashback scene of Renard and Meisner making plans to infiltrate BC, but Diana being back is a wildcard.

I certainly hope something like this is going on. I'm not sure about the timing, but maybe when Meisner went over to yell at Renard for screwing up his plan to trace Marwan (the bird-assassin), they also -- off screen -- discussed a plot to have Renard run a long con on Black Claw, keeping everybody else out of the loop. Now, with Diana in play, Meisner doesn't know whether Renard has broken with their plan. This would explain Meisner's insistence that killing Renard would be a bad idea (in addition to his point, which I appreciate, that doing something stupid is not actually better than doing nothing). It would also be much more in keeping with Renard's character. The writers could have made the Black Claw position more nuanced -- perhaps the members we have seen represent the small terrorist fringe of a more reasonable civil-rights-for-wesen movement, which Renard might genuinely support. But they have steered clear of that, instead portraying them as primarily violent, with a vague political agenda serving to perpetuate more violence. That's not what Renard is about. He wants power, yes, but not chaos. So having him drink their kool-aid, for real, would be perplexing.

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, tpel said:

I certainly hope something like this is going on. I'm not sure about the timing, but maybe when Meisner went over to yell at Renard for screwing up his plan to trace Marwan (the bird-assassin), they also -- off screen -- discussed a plot to have Renard run a long con on Black Claw, keeping everybody else out of the loop. Now, with Diana in play, Meisner doesn't know whether Renard has broken with their plan. This would explain Meisner's insistence that killing Renard would be a bad idea (in addition to his point, which I appreciate, that doing something stupid is not actually better than doing nothing). It would also be much more in keeping with Renard's character. The writers could have made the Black Claw position more nuanced -- perhaps the members we have seen represent the small terrorist fringe of a more reasonable civil-rights-for-wesen movement, which Renard might genuinely support. But they have steered clear of that, instead portraying them as primarily violent, with a vague political agenda serving to perpetuate more violence. That's not what Renard is about. He wants power, yes, but not chaos. So having him drink their kool-aid, for real, would be perplexing.

Yes, Renard wants power, but BC is a take it or leave it group.  Now, if BC offered a choice to join or not, I could see Renard wanting the freedom of being himself and not having to be so much in control.  Remember, Renard talked about being made fun of as a child by Eric, because he would lose control and woge.

I think in the end we will see the flashback of Renard/Meisner meeting where they need his help in bringing down BC.  Diana being back with her BSC is the wildcard!

[TobinAlbers]

Kind of ominous with Nick saying 'You're a Grimm. If anything happens to me, only you know where this is.' which makes me think that Nick is gonna die in the finale and have the be brought back via the healing stick but he won't be the Nick we know and it'll be the springboard for S6's season.

Renard leaning into Black Claw isn't surprising; he's always craved power and wasn't above being ruthless about it. He relented because he and Nick had a mutual cause to take out the Royales but once working with a Grimm wasn't useful to him, he'd totally do his own thing and use any means to his advantage to bring Nick under his control. And Renard's never been about being under someone's thumb, so I expect a double cross with Black Claw and an attempt to move his way up the power pole.

Love that Meisner's thing is to step out for coffee while Eve and Trubel do their interrogation thing.

Finale looks bonkers.

Edited May 19, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[tpel]

I don't know. Yeah, if it was clear that Black Claw had the winning horse in the race, I wouldn't put it past Renard to hitch his wagon there. But that's far from clear to me. In the short run, Black Claw is bad news. I guess he got Diana out of the deal, but I think there were more sensible routes he could have taken to get her back. For his involvement to make sense, Renard would have to believe that, in the long run, something good would come of it in terms of his own power base.

14 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Love that Meisner's thing is to step out for coffee while Eve and Trubel do their interrogation thing.

Yeah, I like this too. It's a cute personality quirk, that gives depth to a mostly stoic character. He's pragmatic about torture, even casual about it -- getting coffee while someone suffers. But he isn't sadistic; he prefers not to watch. He's also comfortable enough with his status as a badass to be fine with the fact that the gals are scarier than he is!

Edited May 20, 2016 by tpel

[Ottis]

This show makes the strangest choices.

Renard's motivation to be a bad guy is whisper thin. Even if he once dreamed of people cheering for him, what about his personality or anything we have seen him do supports that? He is a captain in a police department who largely lived off stage. then suddenly, he wants to be mayor or Portland.

Which is the one thing that makes us laugh each time it comes up. "Yes, ve vill begin our takeover of the world in ... Portland!" Why? Will it be a hippy revolution?

Truble has been one of my favorite characters, but her choice to live in a barracks and obey Meissner was sort of vague, and then in this ep she drops the Magic Stick in terror (Truble isn't afraid of a stick, she just said she would take out Black Claw with only Nick) and has the most forced line reading ever during that whole bit with Nick. She sounded like a different person.

Eve/Juliette ... WTH? "I don't go there." Why? Because you area trained assassin who ran erase mouths but ... can't talk about your ex? I have no idea what she is supposed to be. She's not competent or ruthless enough to be a formidable soldier, and she isn't "normal" enough to be a human. Her affectations come and go. She is just all over the place.

The only one I am enjoying is Wu. Wu doesn't pout and whine about realizing he is some sort of werewolf. No, he begins to train himself to control it. And laughs gleefully at his success. Wu rules.

[Prevailing Wind]

Quote

"Yes, ve vill begin our takeover of the world in ... Portland!" Why?

Voodoo Doughnuts.

[Darklazr]

On 5/19/2016 at 10:26 AM, tpel said:

I don't know. Yeah, if it was clear that Black Claw had the winning horse in the race, I wouldn't put it past Renard to hitch his wagon there. But that's far from clear to me. In the short run, Black Claw is bad news. I guess he got Diana out of the deal, but I think there were more sensible routes he could have taken to get her back. For his involvement to make sense, Renard would have to believe that, in the long run, something good would come of it in terms of his own power base.

Yeah, I like this too. It's a cute personality quirk, that gives depth to a mostly stoic character. He's pragmatic about torture, even casual about it -- getting coffee while someone suffers. But he isn't sadistic; he prefers not to watch. He's also comfortable enough with his status as a badass to be fine with the fact that the gals are scarier than he is!

If Renard truly wanted Diana back in Portland, he could have simply asked Nick to help him find his mother in the first place!  

Renard,"Nick, I changed my mind.  I want my daughter back."

Nick,"I will send my mother an email!"

End of story.  Diana could have been brought back to Portland before Elisabeth left town.

 

Renard should be leery of anyone providing dirt to the media on his past dirty deeds.