Cheers - General Discussion

[readster]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Wow that wedding episode took place in one room. It's absurdity, but that was good comedy. 

It's just a well written and acted episode in the traditional "farce wedding". 

[DoctorAtomic]

The one where henri comes back and works at the bar is easily the worst episode of the series. 

 

[cleo]

Henri sucked.

[DoctorAtomic]

If I didn't know this was the last season I'd say the show is running out of steam. 

[readster]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

If I didn't know this was the last season I'd say the show is running out of steam. 

Something tells me if Shelly Long wouldn't have left the show by the end of season 5. I don't think it would have made it past season 8. The shift to Rebecca and Sam not "owning" Cheers did a lot to give the show a new direction. By season 9, it felt like classic Cheers, but things were starting to move towards what eventually became season 11. 

[DoctorAtomic]

That's still a good run. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm disappointed that they wrote off Lilith. The actors were really great together. 

[cpcathy]

They had to, she had a stint on Broadway, I believe.

[DoctorAtomic]

When did they make the decision to do the Frasier show? 

I just watched where Sam got his car back. Dana Delaney was the guest. I thought she and Danson had really great chemistry. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Wow Leah Remini is Carla's daughter. 

[Night Cheese]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm disappointed that they wrote off Lilith. The actors were really great together. 

I've been following your comments and was wondering if you were going to comment on Lilith being written out. I know Bebe had other projects going on at the time (and good for her--she's a national treasure), but I still feel like they did Lilith dirty in the way they wrote her out. Lilith was always one of my favs and I really thought they went too overboard with her character in order to set up/pump up Frasier ahead of his spinoff. It was borderline character assassination and I think she deserved better.

[readster]

9 hours ago, Night Cheese said:

I've been following your comments and was wondering if you were going to comment on Lilith being written out. I know Bebe had other projects going on at the time (and good for her--she's a national treasure), but I still feel like they did Lilith dirty in the way they wrote her out. Lilith was always one of my favs and I really thought they went too overboard with her character in order to set up/pump up Frasier ahead of his spinoff. It was borderline character assassination and I think she deserved better.

It was a combination of things from Bebe's Broadway work and was not going to be around do to other project commitments following the conclusion of Cheers. So, hence they decided to give her the boot, but I felt it was way too fast with the problems they had. Plus, the other doctor she had the affair with was not only a moron, but you wanted to go: "What would she see in him?" I did feel bad for Fraiser because it was not only a slap in the face to not only the characters, but the audience too. It was like Lilith changed into an odd character out of nowhere and it kind of followed through into the spin-off. 

  Though I'm still trying to figure out why Grammer grew the beard the last couple years of the show. He wasn't doing Shakespear or anything and from I read back in the day and years later. It just kind of happened, and then it was gone by the time Fraiser started. There were just some odd things going on with the Kranes the last three years of the show.

[DoctorAtomic]

There are still good episodes in the last season but the narrative is all over the place. I didn't see a need for Robin to return, the Cranes, Woody was gone for like 4 episodes. 

[readster]

44 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

There are still good episodes in the last season but the narrative is all over the place. I didn't see a need for Robin to return, the Cranes, Woody was gone for like 4 episodes. 

Robin was a big WTF return. They really sent off his character two years prior. Felt like they were trying to show: "See, he screwed himself and now is dirt poor and ran out of his money." Woody was due to filming of White Men Can't Jump. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Holy shit, that's when White Men Can't Jump Came Out? I think I actually saw that in the theater.

I don't get why Robin didn't take his 6 million and go off with the French woman and that's his story. Plus it's bad character development for Rebecca to fall back on just wanting to marry rich.

Now I'm confused that Frasier and Lilith are back together again because I know he was divorced on the spin off.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

I liked the councilman story because everyone was involved in the plot. 

 

[Bort]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Now I'm confused that Frasier and Lilith are back together again because I know he was divorced on the spin off.

 

Frasier’s first episode covers this: “Six months ago, I was living in Boston. My wife had left me, which was very painful. Then she came back to me, which was excruciating. On top of that, my practice had grown stagnant, and my social life consisted of hanging around a bar night after night.”

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I liked the councilman story because everyone was involved in the plot. 

 

I liked Frasier's nightmare of Woody becoming President.

[readster]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Frasier’s first episode covers this: “Six months ago, I was living in Boston. My wife had left me, which was very painful. Then she came back to me, which was excruciating. On top of that, my practice had grown stagnant, and my social life consisted of hanging around a bar night after night.”

Right and Fraiser heading back to Seattle and starting "over again" was the plan. He never planned on Martin living with him and having to hire Daphne. Since Martin was not able to really "function" due to his hip injury and early retirement from the force. Plus, Niles was later admitting he had problems with Maris at the time that he didn't tell anyone about and SHE didn't want Martin living with them. Though, why I have no idea, since they had: no children, pets and a flipping mansion. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I like the one where Carla got everyone drunk and Sam showed Carla his rug. 

Again, same thing, everyone is involved in the story. It's the same reason when Sam & Diane were the main plot. No one else was really doing anything. 

[DoctorAtomic]

One for the road. 

I'm in the home stretch! 

I have to call a little bs on Sam's sex compulsion. He's a small business owner. There's nothing wrong with liking to work and then go out. Maybe you want to go out with someone age appropriate, but a long term relationship isn't the singular definition of healthy. Besides, they never showed it affecting the business or getting arrested or anything. 

I did like the crack at the drive in about leaving a hit show. 

Diane writing for cable in the early 90s seems like a perfect fit for the character. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

The final season isn't actually as bad as it started. There was too much a focus on single character stories, and the show never was that strong when it did that.

The episodes where Carla got them drunk, the drive in, and when they thought Cliff killed Ma Clavin were all solidly funny and entertaining.

Diane and Sam at lunch with the fake spouses was hilarious.

I cracked up when Sam went to the Gaines house and the dogs barked at him. The best part was the delayed laugh by the audience as the joke registered.

I think they missed a good narrative in not getting Rebecca to cater/host events more.

[DoctorAtomic]

I have finished. I feel like I lived another lifetime over the last month.

Diane was kind of wasted in her final appearance. They were going to get back together and then it ended. So much for Sam's 'sex compulsion' too. I can buy he is at the point of thinking he wants more out of life, but they could have gotten there in a more interesting way.

I don't feel like I wasted my time. And really, credit to the show, there really were only a few clunkers out of 275 episodes. There were a ton of times where I laughed really hard too, right from the start to the end. I can see why this is one of the iconic shows of all time.

I liked the end with just Sam and Norm and how Norm knew Sam couldn't have left the bar.

I'm surprised more of the cast wasn't that successful outside of the show. I suppose that depends on how you define it, but Long was never a huge star. It looks like Alley got steady work here and there, but Danson has essentially been working constantly since. I suppose Neuwirth was already a success and continued.

Does anyone know the 'reunion' episode of Frasier? I want to check it out for completeness. Are there any other episodes where the characters appear.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Does anyone know the 'reunion' episode of Frasier? I want to check it out for completeness. Are there any other episodes where the characters appear.

From a Frasier wiki:

Quote

Sam Malone appears in the season two episode "The Show Where Sam Shows Up"

Woody Boyd appears in the season six episode "The Show Where Woody Shows Up"

Diane Chambers appears in the season three episode "The Show Where Diane Shows Up" (although Shelley Long plays unrelated dream characters in season Two (Adventures in Paradise), and season nine (Don Juan in Hell))

Norm, Paul, Phil, Walt, Carla, and Cliff all appear in the season nine episode "Cheerful Goodbyes".

 

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I have finished. I feel like I lived another lifetime over the last month.

Does anyone know the 'reunion' episode of Frasier? I want to check it out for completeness. Are there any other episodes where the characters appear.

You should watch the Tonight Show with Jay Leno that aired after the finale from the real bar in Boston and see the whole cast(sans Kirstie who was in Vancouver) drunk as hell to complete the experience! It's on YouTube under the title "Last Call".

[DoctorAtomic]

I found it! 

Wow the Leno jokes in the opener were not not not good. 

ffs 1993 wasn't that long ago. Everything looks so DATED. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[readster]

39 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I found it! 

Wow the Leno jokes in the opener were not not not good. 

ffs 1993 wasn't that long ago. Everything looks so DATED. 

Jay hosting after the final Friends episode aired in 2004 was miles above the opening of 93 last episode of Cheers, because I stayed up and watched it (though I had a test the next day). Things 15 year olds do. 

[DoctorAtomic]

There is a computer commercial and they showed a FLOPPY DISK. 

Leno's constant drunk jokes was grating. Dude, you've been doing live TV for how long at this point? You can fill air time. 

I felt bad for the college kids that won the contest. 

I also felt bad for men's fashion. Why the hell were all the jackets like tents? 

Edited June 24, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

Frasier is on Hulu. Tea Leoni is his gf! I'm glad Sam still has the bar. 

I don't know if I buy Sam fixing to get married. I still don't think there's anything wrong with being single, and it's clear the bar is his true love. 

I'm still meh on the plot point of Sam having sexual compulsion problems. 

Danson seemed kind of playing Sam rather subdued. 

I've only watched the show a few times because I was in college, but I enjoyed the back and forth with Frasier, Niles, and Roz. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

Diane - I liked that the dad had a lot of disdain for her. Funny choice for the return of her tick. Long seemed to be playing her to the hilt. 

I loved the play. The characters nailed all the Cheers personalities. 

She's a really good actor. I guess I thought she wasn't in much since Cheers, but she's been getting steady work year in and out. I'm surprised she wasn't on another tv show long term. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Crs97]

Fun read about Sam and Diane

I agree with the author’s thoughts about the actors and characters.

[cpcathy]

The author really knows his stuff about Cheers. He also has a lovely piece about the episode “Endless Slumper.”

[DoctorAtomic]

I saw all the rest. The one with Woody was OK. I take the point of Frasier not regretting the choice to move on and looking back is derivative, but I think the execution wasn't so strong. 

The one with everyone there was just meant to be a fun episode. I liked Martin and Norm getting along and Niles ended up having fun. 

I watched the one where Diane and Lillith were in his head. I liked it because all the actors can play well off one another. Diane painting a portrait of Sam and singing was funny. 

[VCRTracking]

Also Rita Wilson did a great Nancy Marchand impression.

From Howard Stern in 2012, Woody Harrelson interview on how he got cast:

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Shit I loved Wildcats!

[DoctorAtomic]

On 6/24/2020 at 8:01 PM, Crs97 said:

Fun read about Sam and Diane

I agree with the author’s thoughts about the actors and characters.

As I said before, we've seen will they/won't they so much now, it's hard to imagine a time where it was actually the first. Now, it's derivative and typically looked at as lazy writing. 

Having the show so fresh in my mind, the actors were terrific, but I could really only stand Sam&Diane plots when it was part of the show and not the out and in front plot. I'm not really a shipper by nature, so inherently I'm not really going to be too invested. 

I think a fundamental flaw is that this kind of plot isn't sustainable - it has to have some ending at some point. Sure, you can throw in some roadblocks like Frasier or the councilwoman, but you can't do that for 200 episodes. Regardless if Long had been difficult to work with, they ran out of what to do with Diane. Clearly, Long liked Diane enough to return to play her several times and also on Frasier, so it's not like she's sour. She was even in the 200th episode special. 

Being the first go around, TPTB may not have really forseen it. And Danson and Long were so great that they probably wanted to ride it as long as they could. Even then, they got over 100 episodes out of it and were talented enough to retool the show for another 175. 

I wonder in today's tv climate how a show like this could work. I think a little more drama into it than just comedy could be an interesting angle. Not that it has to be all 'gritty', but not all setup/punchline all the time. 

[DoctorAtomic]

My next find is Taxi on Hulu. I think it's a good complement to Cheers. There's no forum? 

[cpcathy]

Fun fact: Ted Danson had a guest spot on Taxi, during which he ran over to where the auditions for Cheers were, and auditioned for Sam.

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, cpcathy said:

Fun fact: Ted Danson had a guest spot on Taxi, during which he ran over to where the auditions for Cheers were, and auditioned for Sam.

Also, I guess the other finalists for Sam and Diane (Sam was originally slated to be a football - not baseball - player!) were Fred Dryer and Julia Duffy. Of course, Dryer would recur early on the show as Dave the sportscaster and later got his own NBC show, Hunter, that was a hit and ran for seven seasons. And Julia Duffy would go on to play Stephanie on Newhart. And if I recall, she appeared on Cheers as a friend of Diane's?

So both seemed to rebound from losing the Sam/Diane roles just fine.

At some point in the process, I guess even William Devane - best known as Greg Sumner on Knots Landing - was up for the role of Sam.

[readster]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Also, I guess the other finalists for Sam and Diane (Sam was originally slated to be a football - not baseball - player!) were Fred Dryer and Julia Duffy. Of course, Dryer would recur early on the show as Dave the sportscaster and later got his own NBC show, Hunter, that was a hit and ran for seven seasons. And Julia Duffy would go on to play Stephanie on Newhart. And if I recall, she appeared on Cheers as a friend of Diane's?

So both seemed to rebound from losing the Sam/Diane roles just fine.

At some point in the process, I guess even William Devane - best known as Greg Sumner on Knots Landing - was up for the role of Sam.

It's like how Kelsy Gramer got the role of Fraiser. He was told by a friend of his working as an extra during the second season they were looking for a new reoccuring character on the show and he rode his motorcycle up for the audition. Even getting struck by lightning and said: "I took it as a sign from God if I didn't get knocked out by that lightning strike, I was meant to go to that audition." Turned into a 20 year career. 

[DoctorAtomic]

It's funny because finishing Cheers I'm thinking Alex and Nardo on Taxi is going to be the will they /won't they plot but I had to remember that hasn't been invented for television yet. 

[DoctorAtomic]

So Jeffery Tambor always looked the same since forever. 

[cleo]

Doctor Atomic I've been watching Taxi. IMO it is not nearly as good as Cheers and very uneven. I also found some of the plots very unpleasant/disturbing, but it was probably just me, sometimes I react to things.

That being said- Christopher Lloyd is fantastic, Kaufamn as well but I like Lloyd's chara ter more.

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by cleo

[DoctorAtomic]

Reverend Jim has only been on one so far that I've gotten to. 

[cleo]

I think it's not til sometime in season 2 he becomes a regular 

Edited July 6, 2020 by cleo

[ifionlyknew]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Reverend Jim has only been on one so far that I've gotten to. 

 

2 hours ago, cleo said:

I think it's not til sometime in season 2 he becomes a regular 

Jim taking the written driving test is one of the funniest scenes ever. Every once in awhile I watch it on YouTube just to laugh.

[DoctorAtomic]

I've seen that one. 

[cpcathy]

9 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

Jim taking the written driving test is one of the funniest scenes ever. Every once in awhile I watch it on YouTube just to laugh.

Written by Glen and Les Charles, who created Cheers.

[DoctorAtomic]

And apparently Burrows directed all of television in the Carter administration. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

And apparently Burrows directed all of television in the Carter administration. 

He worked into the '90s. He also directed Friends. The pilot, I think. Maybe more.