Omegamom February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 Besides, they had no idea what a "Knight of Hell" was. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1985601
catrox14 February 23, 2016 Author Share February 23, 2016 Besides, they had no idea what a "Knight of Hell" was. I think that was why John didn't believe the demon because he'd never heard of a Knight of Hell. He thought the demon was making shit up to save himself from exorcism. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1985632
trxr4kids February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 Only speaking for myself, I have read the Harry Potter books I-don't-know-how-many times. Probably more than is healthy. And yet, each time, I read something I never noticed before. It's easy to miss info if you don't think it's important. Only in retrospect does it gain significance. Fair enough, but I still think that damned journal is supernatural in some way :} The devil's trap symbol alone being either excluded or forgotten says either John was a secretive bastard or the boys have memory issues. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1985761
DittyDotDot February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 (edited) Well, IMO, John was a secretive bastard and the boys have been pummeled on their heads so much over the last 10 years...it might be a healthy mix of both. ;) Edited February 23, 2016 by DittyDotDot 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1985827
trxr4kids February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 Tara said that she and John tortured the demon and he told them about the First Blade but John thought it was bullshit. Tara pursued it on her own after parting ways with John to no avail because she didn't have the essence of kraken, which Crowley conveniently had a warehouse full of. Oh, Crowley. IMO John just didn't think it was true so he blew it off and didn't write about it. But why would the devil's trap diagram/info which was what they presumably used to trap then torture the demon not referenced before season 9, it was a surprise to them in season 1. I'm going to pretend that Carver cannon makes sense and is thought out. John knew how to draw a devil's trap and didn't include it his journal because he's an ass or Dean and Sam can't retain pertinent information or wizards! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1985888
catrox14 February 23, 2016 Author Share February 23, 2016 (edited) But why would the devil's trap diagram/info which was what they presumably used to trap then torture the demon not referenced before season 9, it was a surprise to them in season 1. I'm going to pretend that Carver cannon makes sense and is thought out. John knew how to draw a devil's trap and didn't include it his journal because he's an ass or Dean and Sam can't retain pertinent information or wizards! John and Tara trapped a regular demon who claimed to have known about Knights of Hell and the First Blade. They didn't trap an actual Knight of Hell. John disregarded the demon's story about a weapon that could kill a Knight of Hell hence John only referencing the demon they trapped and exorcised I'm not following why this is continuity fail. Edited February 23, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986017
DittyDotDot February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 (edited) But why would the devil's trap diagram/info which was what they presumably used to trap then torture the demon not referenced before season 9, it was a surprise to them in season 1. I'm going to pretend that Carver cannon makes sense and is thought out. John knew how to draw a devil's trap and didn't include it his journal because he's an ass or Dean and Sam can't retain pertinent information or wizards! You know, I had a question about why the boys didn't know about a devil's trap earlier because in Bad Day at Black Rock John obviously knew what one was (he had one guarding his storage locker)...yeah, John's not much for sharing helpful information, IMO. And, the brain damage... Edited February 23, 2016 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986040
catrox14 February 23, 2016 Author Share February 23, 2016 You know, I had a question about why the boys didn't know about a devil's trap in Bad Day at Black Rock because John obviously knew what one was (he had one guarding his storage locker)...yeah, John's not much for sharing helpful information, IMO. And, the brain damage... Wait, what? The boys knew about Devil's Traps in s1...that's how they trapped Meg...What didn't they know about in Bad Day at Black Rock? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986050
DittyDotDot February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 (edited) No, you're misunderstanding the question. What we are asking is: why didn't the boys know about a devil's trap before the episode Devil's Trap when obviously John did. Shouldn't he have told them about it or, at the very least, had that in his journal? Instead, Sam finds it in a rare book Bobby gave him just before the car accident and John dying. It's not like John had time to go paint that devil's trap on the floor of his storage unit after Sam learns this information because he's dead. So, it appears he knew about them but just didn't share. But that's not exactly shocking to me because John wasn't particularly good at sharing what he knew about Sam either. ETA: trxr4kids was asking a similar question: Why didn't the boys know about a devil's trap sooner--or why wasn't this in John's journal--if John had used one to trap a demon back before S1? Edited February 23, 2016 by DittyDotDot 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986071
SueB February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 My theory: John didn't want them having too much demon engagement. That he always intended to abandon them if he got close to the demon. And if he died, he was probably okay with hunting but he might not have wanted them to keep searching for YED. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986125
catrox14 February 23, 2016 Author Share February 23, 2016 Oh....I gotcha. Hmmm, thinking back to Phantom Traveler the boys just had to throw holy water and physically restrain a demon long enough to exorcise it. Maybe John and Tara didn't use a devil's trap for that demon and just waterboarded it using holy water? That's my head!canon why devil's traps didn't show up until Meg and why they weren't in John's journal. :) Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986133
DittyDotDot February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 (edited) My theory: John didn't want them having too much demon engagement. That he always intended to abandon them if he got close to the demon. And if he died, he was probably okay with hunting but he might not have wanted them to keep searching for YED. But yet, John had other things about Yellow Eyes in the journal, just not how one would successfully trap him so they didn't get themselves killed. That's kinda the thing with John, though. He always thought he was protecting the boys, but most of the time he was doing it in such a way that put them in more danger, IMO. For instance, he would leave them in towns just far enough away to be out of the supernatural harms way, but then abandon them to their own devices for long stretches of time where so many un-supernatural things could've happened to them. Or, how he trained them to be ready for anything except the things he didn't want them to be ready for, but yet those things came anyway and they weren't prepared. Edited February 23, 2016 by DittyDotDot 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986208
trxr4kids February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 My theory: John didn't want them having too much demon engagement. That he always intended to abandon them if he got close to the demon. And if he died, he was probably okay with hunting but he might not have wanted them to keep searching for YED. Except for the part about he seemingly knew Azazel was after Sam and then he gave Dean the most contradictory dying message ever. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986230
catrox14 February 23, 2016 Author Share February 23, 2016 John was a contradictory fuck a lot of the time. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986247
trxr4kids February 23, 2016 Share February 23, 2016 John was a contradictory fuck a lot of the time. There's a thread title right there! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-1986260
catrox14 March 2, 2016 Author Share March 2, 2016 (edited) From the "On The Head of a Pin" episode thread Sam had been drinking demon blood, he just didn't have a "fresh" supply of it. I always equated the demon blood to steroid-use. Steroids build up in your system and you're never really sober unless you stop using them all-together for a long period of time, like he did after Metamorphosis up until Criss Angel is a Douchebag. So, the drug was in his system and IMO affecting his behavior and thinking. I was rewatching On The Head of a Pin and it really got me to thinking about Sam's demon blood "addiction" and it leads me to the question that I never really thought about before Demon blood: How is it even a thing at all? And why would Sam even be addicted to it especially from Ruby 2.0? If I understand demon-ity correctly in the SPNverse, humans become demons because they have spent so much time in Hell under torture and committing torture that the humanity is burned away leaving a twisted soul in the same meatsuit. OR they are turned into a demon by the Mark like Dean, but in either case they are in their own human meatsuits during the process. And I think I remember it being said that if they manage to crawl out of Hell on their own, they can still walk the earth in their meatsuits if it's viable. Or they can opt out of their own meatsuit and possess a different meatsuit. It seems to me, if they are in their own meatsuits, it would still have human blood because it's still a human body but I could buy that the DNA could be altered in some way because of the humanity being burned away from their own meatsuit. That could explain why demon!Dean could heal himself when other demons in possessed meatsuits could not (or it's demon magic). But I think, in general, most demons, whilst they can access the meatsuit's memories and control it like it's a puppet they don't seem to invade it on a cellular level. For example, Meg 1.0 couldn't heal her meatsuit so it died once Meg 1.0 was exorcised. I don't think squatters rights kick in either. If my thinking is right on that, it seems like Ruby 2.0 meatsuit's blood would not have any demon properties at all and thus it her blood shouldn't actually affect Sam. So that leads me to think that everything Ruby 2.0 told Sam about it always being inside him was factual meaning Sam was actually able to access his own mental powers to use his Hand of Ipecac and it wasn't because of 'demon blood' at all and not because he was evil either. IMO Ruby convincing Sam that it was the demon blood and then telling him it wasn't was just another step to psychologically destroying him enough for him to be convinced to set the world right by being Lucifer's meatsuit. Now as far as Sam being the perfect Vessel for Lucifer and needing demon blood for that I wonder if again that is more manipulation that just built on the prior manipulation. Sam didn't want to believe he was Lucifer's Vessel because he doesn't want to believe it and who can blame him. I wouldn't it. I'm wondering if Sam never needed the demon blood to be Lucifer's vessel but more that he had to finally be pushed into a mental state to accept it. I dunno. I need to noodle on it more. Edited March 2, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015223
AwesomO4000 March 2, 2016 Share March 2, 2016 So that leads me to think that everything Ruby 2.0 told Sam about it always being inside him was factual meaning Sam was actually able to access his own mental powers to use his Hand of Ipecac and it wasn't because of 'demon blood' at all and not because he was evil either. IMO Ruby convincing Sam that it was the demon blood and then telling him it wasn't was just another step to psychologically destroying him enough for him to be convinced to set the world right by being Lucifer's meatsuit. Now as far as Sam being the perfect Vessel for Lucifer and needing demon blood for that I wonder if again that is more manipulation that just built on the prior manipulation. Sam didn't want to believe he was Lucifer's Vessel because he doesn't want to believe it and who can blame him. I wouldn't it. I'm wondering if Sam never needed the demon blood to be Lucifer's vessel but more that he had to finally be pushed into a mental state to accept it. I dunno. I need to noodle on it more. I'm thinking maybe it's a little of both? From what I saw, the physical aspects of demon blood addiction did seem to be there. I find it hard to believe that all that Sam went through with withdrawal - twice - was just something in his head that he was doing to himself, especially since the first time he went through the withdrawal, he was so far gone that he didn't want to be off the demon blood. He was convinced that he was on the right path, so theoretically he shouldn't be feeling the self-harming guilt that would explain why his brain would put him through that tortuous withdrawal. So to me that seemed like a physical thing. As did when he "fizzled out" that one time, and Dean asked him (paraphrase) "What the hell is wrong with your powers? Why are they fritzing?" And the answer was they were fritzing because he was low on demon blood. Now comes the other part. Maybe Sam needed the actual demon blood for the power exactly because he was mentally resisting. Maybe if he just gave in to it - like theoretically Ava did - then it would just flow more naturally without the need for demon blood, but Ruby - even with all of her convincing about saving the hosts, needing to kill Lilith, etc. - couldn't convince him over that final "embrace evil" hump needed to access the power without the physical demon blood power up. So Ruby went the demon blood route to give him a physical taste of what the power could do, hoping to get him on the path that way, and make Sam like it enough that he'd be more willing to embrace the darkness. But she even had some trouble there, because Sam gave up the blood drinking for a while... which makes me dislike that stupid magician episode even more, because what a lame-ass supposed trigger for Sam to start drinking demon blood again, in my opinion. It didn't even make sense, and then Sam totally contradicted his supposed "conclusion" the very next episode... which is why I think "On the Head of a Pin" had to happen the way it did... to give Sam a "real" reason to start up on the blood again. And the arrogance was part of how he was becoming addicted to the high of the power. I just thought that it was kind of a crappy thing to do to the character, as if the humiliation of the addiction and his forthcoming huge downfall wasn't bad enough. As for the demon blood being manipulation part, I agree when it comes to Ruby, especially with my theory above. However it makes less sense when we get to Castiel in season 5, so I suspect that there is also a physical component there, especially since presumably Lucifer was getting stronger while in Nick and so now needed a stronger Sam vessel (and Azazel had said that demon blood was like Ovaltine - it "makes you grow up big and strong," so there was some canon that demon blood did something)... (Warning: my opinion only here) And how convenient for the plot that Sam did need to drink all of the demon blood in order to become Lucifer's vessel, because here came the over-cockiness immediately. I could see it coming the moment Sam finished the last batch of "go juice" (TM Dean) and said "Let's go." Jared's whole body language changed - good job by him there in my opinion. So the over-cockiness became an excuse/reason that Sam would say "yes" even though he had previously told Dean he wouldn't unless everyone was on board with the plan - which Dean no longer was once they found out Lucifer already knew about the plan. But because Sam was full of demon blood and overconfident, his reasoning flew out the window and he said "yes" anyway... only to immediately be defeated by Lucifer in humiliating fashion. Sam's saying "yes" would have seemed far-fetched based on the whole conversation previously and the whole demeanor that Sam had been showing during season 5* if Sam hadn't drank all the demon blood in order to house Lucifer... So, Sam having to drink demon blood was conveniently a plot point to make him over-confident and reckless. * (i.e. looking like he had learned his lesson from last season and rejecting the power that the demon blood gave him in the Famine episode.) 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015429
catrox14 March 2, 2016 Author Share March 2, 2016 I was on board with that until I thought about the origin of demon blood. And now I'm really having trouble understanding how it can be a thing from a demon that is not it's own meatsuit. And Ruby 2.0 was not that. If someone can convince me other than 'wizard', I'm all ears. The other thing that makes me think the demon blood had no actual affect on Sam is that when Sam asked Azazel or Ruby or Lucifer WHY it was him they never answered the question really. Then never said it was because the demon blood made him that way. They reinforced instead that he was special but never explained WHY it had to be him. Just that it did. That appeals to the ego even if you try to not let it, IMO ( Also I HATE THAT. It's not a reason! LOL. Destiny is not a good enough reason either. ) In my latest theory, if the demon blood wasn't really the thing that actually affected Sam physiologically then it was in Sam's mind as in Sam did it himself without particularly wanting to do it or really understanding that was the case. The human brain is still the most powerful thing in the world IMO. It can't regrow grey matter once damaged but it can find and create new synapses to problem solve after it's been damaged after a stroke. That's pretty damn remarkable. Humans can recover speech etc through therapy that helps build those synapses, so why can't the brain figure out how to access powers that humans don't normally access. (Why yes I have been re-watching XFILEs..why do you ask)? Sam felt powerless because of Jessica and Dean so vengeance and arrogance make him feel powerful. IMO he legitimately lost in s3 and that stayed with him and then when Dean went to Hell he lost it again. He's desperate to make a deal but he can't and then Ruby 2.0 shows up to reinforce the idea that Sam can get vengeance for Dean and save the world but he needed to be strong enough to do it. IIRC, Ruby knew all about Sam being one of Azazel's Chosen Children so she used that to get him to believe that demon blood was the only way to do it but it was really working on Sam's psyche. IMO Sam was willing to believe it was the demon blood because if he believed that he could do it without demon blood then that makes him an actual monster and that is more than he could live with. Hence, why he was Dumbo, because it was in him all along and not because he's evil or because of the demon blood but because he was able to access that paranormal side of things out of his complete and utter desperation but he didn't know this. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015829
Demented Daisy March 2, 2016 Share March 2, 2016 I think calling it "demon blood" was a shortcut for "the demon soul poisoned the human blood". Like microscopic demonic bacteria in the blood, that kind of thing. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015840
catrox14 March 2, 2016 Author Share March 2, 2016 (edited) I think calling it "demon blood" was a shortcut for "the demon soul poisoned the human blood". Like microscopic demonic bacteria in the blood, that kind of thing. I'm not following. I like the idea but I'm not even seeing how that would work unless it's from the demon meatsuit. Yes, I'm being super nitpicky about this because "demon blood" doesn't make any sense to me! LOL Edited March 2, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015851
Demented Daisy March 2, 2016 Share March 2, 2016 The demonic soul is not corporeal, but it does have mass. At least, that's the way it looks. It looks like it's actually made of smoke of some variety. I always just thought of the soul -- human, demonic, or angelic -- as a nebulous mass that needs a vessel to contain it. So, whatever that "smoke" is, it taints human blood. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015878
auntvi March 2, 2016 Share March 2, 2016 IMO Sam was willing to believe it was the demon blood because if he believed that he could do it without demon blood then that makes him an actual monster and that is more than he could live with. Hence, why he was Dumbo, because it was in him all along and not because he's evil or because of the demon blood but because he was able to access that paranormal side of things out of his complete and utter desperation but he didn't know this. Yes! I watched "All Hell Breaks Loose Pts 1 & 2" this afternoon and wrote a note to myself about Ava's and Jake's experiences of opening themselves up and how that affected Sam later. Of course, you described it much more clearly. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2015927
Omegamom March 2, 2016 Share March 2, 2016 Midichlorians. Demons are actually Sith Lords. I'm with Demented: Something in the demon smoke taints the vessel's blood. (The blood recuperates very quickly, though, because there are no lingering demon-blood effects once the demon smokes out.) 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016101
catrox14 March 2, 2016 Author Share March 2, 2016 Midichlorians. Demons are actually Sith Lords. I'm with Demented: Something in the demon smoke taints the vessel's blood. (The blood recuperates very quickly, though, because there are no lingering demon-blood effects once the demon smokes out.) I dunno. I'm not so sure I buy that. If that were the case, wouldn't they just feed demon blood to all humans to get them to power up for their purposes? Why is Sam the only human that's done that? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016115
FlickChick March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 In Ruby 2.0's case, the meatsuit she was occupying was clinically dead. Therefore it was strictly the demon (smoke, soul, etc) that kept the body "alive", so in effect, gave the body demon blood to keep it alive and functioning. At least that's my theory. I doubt that Sam needed that demon blood to become stronger and have powers because we saw both Ava and Jake (and probably the rest of the "special kids") latch on to that power and be able to control people/demons without the benefit of drinking blood. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016169
DittyDotDot March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 I dunno. I'm not so sure I buy that. If that were the case, wouldn't they just feed demon blood to all humans to get them to power up for their purposes? Why is Sam the only human that's done that? Because no other human is that fucked up to even contemplate drinking that nasty shit. ;) No seriously, I think it has to do with the blood Yellow Eyes fed him when he was a baby. I'm going with demons not doing this regularly because none of them have the patience to wait 22 years for their crop of humans to mature and ripen. Plus, the results are kinda unpredictable, they might be giving powers to someone who would turn around and use those powers against them...kinda like Sam ultimately did. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016269
AwesomO4000 March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 (edited) In my latest theory, if the demon blood wasn't really the thing that actually affected Sam physiologically then it was in Sam's mind as in Sam did it himself without particularly wanting to do it or really understanding that was the case. The human brain is still the most powerful thing in the world IMO. It can't regrow grey matter once damaged but it can find and create new synapses to problem solve after it's been damaged after a stroke. That's pretty damn remarkable. Humans can recover speech etc through therapy that helps build those synapses, so why can't the brain figure out how to access powers that humans don't normally access. (Why yes I have been re-watching XFILEs..why do you ask)? Sam felt powerless because of Jessica and Dean so vengeance and arrogance make him feel powerful. IMO he legitimately lost in s3 and that stayed with him and then when Dean went to Hell he lost it again. He's desperate to make a deal but he can't and then Ruby 2.0 shows up to reinforce the idea that Sam can get vengeance for Dean and save the world but he needed to be strong enough to do it. IIRC, Ruby knew all about Sam being one of Azazel's Chosen Children so she used that to get him to believe that demon blood was the only way to do it but it was really working on Sam's psyche. IMO Sam was willing to believe it was the demon blood because if he believed that he could do it without demon blood then that makes him an actual monster and that is more than he could live with. Hence, why he was Dumbo, because it was in him all along and not because he's evil or because of the demon blood but because he was able to access that paranormal side of things out of his complete and utter desperation but he didn't know this. I doubt that Sam needed that demon blood to become stronger and have powers because we saw both Ava and Jake (and probably the rest of the "special kids") latch on to that power and be able to control people/demons without the benefit of drinking blood. Then why did his powers fizzle out if he didn't have demon blood? To me, the last thing Sam would want to happen would've been what happened at the end of "The Rapture," so why would Sam's subconscious go there? Why would Azazel bother to feed the special children demon blood if the demon blood doesn't really do anything? That's why I like my "both" theory. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so I think it is feasible that there's more than one way to access powers. Ava and Jake were able to access theirs without the need for demon blood, but maybe Sam wasn't mentally there, so the demon blood was another way for Ruby to achieve it without having to get Sam mentally there. As for the Dumbo thing, maybe that had to do with killing Lilith specifically - that once Sam killed the nurse, now Sam was in the mindset that he could access the powers without benefit of the demon blood. However, in my opinion, that also seemed to be contradicted by Ruby saying that Sam used up all his power killing Lilith, which she equated to a sexual act where an actual, physical "commodity" is used up. To me, that comparison makes no sense if there isn't an actual, physical commodity that was used up. It should've been a comparison like his batteries were all drained or something to that effect if the power was coming from within Sam. I dunno. I'm not so sure I buy that. If that were the case, wouldn't they just feed demon blood to all humans to get them to power up for their purposes? Why is Sam the only human that's done that? Because he's the only one that we know of that was predisposed by Azazel. Theoretically there are more, but they aren't of age yet (they would be about 12ish in SPNverse time), and they don't know who they are. Or what DDD said above. Also for me in the "physical affect" column would be Famine. Sam started being physically affected by Famine's influence before he even knew about Famine, so if the demon blood addiction was all in his head, how would he know to be affected by it before he even knew an addiction thing was happening? Why would Famine send Sam a "snack" that only had a psychological effect on Sam? And Famine knew about Sam's addiction and said that Sam could drink as much blood as he wanted, because he was the exception to the rule "just the way Satan wanted you to be." To me, it doesn't make much sense for Famine to say something like that if it was all in Sam's head and the physical blood drinking wasn't doing anything. He would tell Sam exactly that - that the power was all inside of him. Nor would Sam have a physical withdrawal afterwards if it had no physical effect. Sam was no longer in the same psychological state he was in at the end of season 4. Sam resisted Famine's temptation - a positive thing - so in my opinion, it wouldn't make sense for him to put himself through all of that or for Castiel to let Sam go through all of that rather than say "well, actually there's nothing physically wrong with Sam." What Castiel did say was "he just has to get it out of his system" implying there was an "it" to get out of Sam's system. And Castiel's whole "Sam has to drink demon blood to be able to physically hold Lucifer now" spiel would make little to no sense, in my opinion, if Sam didn't actually need the blood to get his vessel stronger. Why would Castiel even suggest that if the demon blood affect was just all in Sam's head? Castiel had to have gotten that information from somewhere, and it wasn't from Sam, because Sam was just as dismayed and confused as Dean was by the information. Edited March 3, 2016 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016431
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 Then why did his powers fizzle out if he didn't have demon blood? To me, the last thing Sam would want to happen would've been what happened at the end of "The Rapture," so why would Sam's subconscious go there? Why would Azazel bother to feed the special children demon blood if the demon blood doesn't really do anything? I think in those moments that Sam fizzled out, he was doubting his own powers. Or something in his conscious mind was like NOPE, I don't want to do this. But he was fighting an internal war against himself. Not wanting to give into those feelings that Ava and Jake gave into. Dean was freaking out about it and I think that was starting to wear on Sam. But he was trusting Ruby, he'd already felt the power and IMO it was that first taste of power when he exorcised the first demon with the Hand of Ipecac, that's when the 'addiction' kicked in. When things started falling apart with Dean, IMO it was his conscious mind trying to shut down what his subconscious mind could do because he didn't want to be a monster. Sometimes I think they used "demon blood" just so they could set up the sexy scenes of Sam sucking on Ruby's arm. It attaches Sam to Ruby sexually not just supernaturally and drive home the division between Dean and Sam was because of a girl as much as anything. Ava and Jake opened themselves up to power. If the demon blood was that much of a difference maker Ava and Jake wouldn't have had to allow themselves to access that power, it would have just been there. If like with Sam the power was always in the demon blood. I don't think the demon blood 'made' them choose the power. Jake was coerced by the threats to his family but he said once he let the power in it was beautiful. I'm not clear on when Ava made that choice. Sam was harder for Azazel to manipulate because of Dean. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016488
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 ETA: I don't think Cas saying he had to power up was a problem because as far as Cas knew the demon blood was a thing. I don't think he would have known it wasn't a thing. I'm saying the demon blood was a placebo effect basically. He had to believe it was the demon blood to maintain his own sanity. Ruby needed Sam to believe it was the demon blood to guide him the rest of the way to killing Lilith. I think everything he experienced as 'withdrawal' was his mind trying to sort out his mind. Kind of like the Halluciferations. Was it really Lucifer poking at Sam or Sam's mind. Sam's mind has been under attack his whole life, IMO On the flip side it's Dean soul that is under attack. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016585
SueB March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 (edited) Fly in the Chardonnay: Nick was drinking "gallons of the stuff" when he was housing Lucifer because he wasn't a perfect "fit". So here's my theory (which is full-on ex post facto reconcilliation because they didn't have this all down at the start). Ingestion of demon blood alters SOME humans. - Azazel's blood was super-duper demonic blood AND I suspect a spell of some sort was said while he was standing over the crib. There were three specific features for the "Special" children: 1) they were "infected" at 6 months of age, 2) the powers did not manifest until approximately 20 years later, and 3) the powers were psychic in nature but the specific manifestation was more random. Once the "special child" embraced their power, they could expand it to other uses. Since it was only a few drops, I think there HAD to be a spell involved as none of these "special children" because addicted to the stuff. - In S5, the made it canon that demon blood made the body 'stronger' for Lucifer. Nick was probably "Archangel-compatible" already because otherwise Lucifer could have chosen any random person. And Nick had to say 'yes'. Which leads me to a theory that ALL the special children were "Archangel-compatible" in the first place because the ultimate goal was a Lucifer vessel. YED was probably looking for people who had that in their bloodlines in order to make deals for viable children. So, what about what Ruby said? Well, the ultimate plan was to get Sam strong enough to take on Lucifer in order for him to battle Micheal. So, Lucifer didn't just want an Archangel compatible body, he wanted an Archangel compatible body that ALSO could fight an epic power-battle. But Ruby lied and told Sam the blood was to activate the powers. In truth, it was 'the feather' for Sam because he STILL had those powers in him. He equated them with being a freak, however, so he was naturally dispositioned to NOT invoke those powers. So Ruby killed two birds with one stone. She convinced Sam the powers would come back with the aid of demon blood (which opened him up to using them) AND she got him physically stronger in order to take on Lucifer. Does Sam still have those powers and is his body still strong enough for Lucifer WITHOUT the blood. I'd say "yes" to both. Sam was already capable of housing Lucifer (just like Dean was capable of housing Micheal) without the blood. The blood just was there to provide an extra supernatural/physical edge when it came to the prize-fight. So, Sam was strong enough to take on Lucifer's vessel in "The Devil is in the Details" BUT Lucifer might have had him chugging blood prior to fighting Amara. Cas, being a hand-built body by God, probably is naturally strong enough. As for the powers, Sam has rejected their use time and time again. So now, he's conditioned his mind to not turn on the powers unless it's getting demon go-go juice (because adding the blood taints his body and relaxes his mental guards to allow access to the powers). I don't believe any random person could ingest rank-n-file demon blood and get a power-up. The capabilities had to be installed via blood magic spell in the first place (when young) AND the person probably needs to be Archangel compatible. Edited March 3, 2016 by SueB 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016790
AwesomO4000 March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 (edited) ETA: I don't think Cas saying he had to power up was a problem because as far as Cas knew the demon blood was a thing. I don't think he would have known it wasn't a thing. Note: I apologize that this turned out to be long, so I included a shorthand version below for those who don't want the details. Please scroll down to the bolded words if you wish. Otherwise... I think it's the specific situation that is throwing me. Why would Cas specifically think and say that Sam would have to drink gallons of demon blood in order to hold Lucifer without exploding? That's pretty specific, and he sounded very sure... and said that it was something that Nickifer was doing in order to keep from exploding. I'm saying the demon blood was a placebo effect basically. He had to believe it was the demon blood to maintain his own sanity. Ruby needed Sam to believe it was the demon blood to guide him the rest of the way to killing Lilith. In the flashbacks, Sam seemed to be trying very hard to access the power at first, so he was at least open to the idea theoretically. I'm not sure why Ruby would go to "I know, I'll have him drink my blood," unless it actually also did something to kick start the process, because demon blood to me, seems like a pretty risky "placebo" to suggest. If it was just a placebo she was after, she could've chosen something much easier to sell to Sam than that, in my opinion. Some kind of herb maybe, a talisman, just about anything mundane that would not require talking Sam into actually drinking blood. And if she wanted a sexual bond - well, then voila - have sex do it. That makes just about as much sense as demon blood as a placebo to me, and would "taint" Sam, too. It would also be something he would absolutely have to depend on her for, so she could control it much better. So basically I'm saying that Ruby chose demon blood on purpose, because it actually does do at least something, so now it serves multiple purposes 1) it bonds them 2) it gives Sam a little taste of power and 3) it's something that maybe isn't a total power boost, so that there's still more to come. If it has behavioral affects - which from what I saw, it did - that's even better. And I like SueB's theory that the demon blood "taints" Sam, making him more open to using his powers therefore making his powers easier to access - which would have the same effect as the blood giving him powers, because in a way then - it does (like steroids allow for / help along muscle growth, thereby making the person stronger. Or maybe like alcohol - relaxing the inhibitions.). So in my headcanon - which I can't tell whether or not SueB's has - there is a physical component / affect of drinking the blood, and not just a mental "tainting," because for me that would explain the physical withdrawal affects. I think this would also be supported by demons (and I think angels) being able to detect the demon blood pumping through Sam's veins. Also the ghouls... who could tell that Sam's blood was physically tainted by the taste (both of which I think point to an actual physical change in Sam's blood). There was also Lucifer who as soon as he saw that Sam killed his two minions in "Swan Song" said "Chock full of Ovaltine, are we?" So I'm not sure what that was supposed to imply, since Sam recently drank all of that demon blood. So for me, unless there was some actual benefit like above, and an actual physical addiction affect to make Sam come back, it would be a pretty risky choice for a placebo to talk Sam "I'm resisting being a freak" Winchester into. So Sam isn't going to open himself up to his powers to potentially help people, because that would make him a "monster," but Ruby's going to talk him into drinking demon blood like a vampire, and Sam wouldn't think that would make him a monster? For me, I'm not entirely buying that one unless the demon blood did somehow affect Sam's behavior, so that he would be more willing to do it again. I also can't talk myself into Sam manifesting physical cravings for himself. I think everything he experienced as 'withdrawal' was his mind trying to sort out his mind. Kind of like the Halluciferations. Was it really Lucifer poking at Sam or Sam's mind. I think San's hallucinations were effects of actual PTSD like damage to his brain. It was Sam's mind, because his mind was damaged.... but with Sam's hallucinations, Sam was at least able for a while to "manage" them. He consciously chose to help himself. He didn't consciously choose to give himself hallucinations... actually the opposite, unless you subscribe to my theory that he partially used the hallucinations to compartmentalize his guilt. Even then, Sam would be choosing to mentally help himself, not harm himself. That was Sam's subconscious, but there were actual memories there behind the hallucinations. In my opinion, it wasn't something he was entirely inventing. Sam's mind has been under attack his whole life, IMO Which is why it's hard for me to believe that Sam would let his mind - even subconsciously - make up things to harm himself like fake addiction. He seems to really dislike it when he's thrown into situations that are out of his control, so I would find it pretty counterproductive for Sam to let his mind put him in exactly that position. If anything he'd want to control himself more. So I'm going to adopt SueB's theory with the addition perhaps for me that the demon blood did physically make Sam more receptive to his powers by tainting him, with the added benefit of that making his powers easier to access and giving them a boost and making his body physically stronger for the battle Lucifer wanted to wage. So the Too Long: Didn't Read shorthand version... 1) I agree with SueB except that I think there was a physical component of the demon blood either physically tainting Sam, making him emotionally more receptive to using his powers, or likely both. And I think this because: a) demon blood would be a risky choice for just a placebo. Ruby could've chosen something easier to talk Sam into first and worked her way up, so there was a reason beyond "placebo" that she chose demon blood. b) Sam did seem to have emotional and physical affects from the blood, including ones that other supernatural beings could detect (demons and I think angels) and that even changed the taste of his blood (the ghouls could tell Sam's blood was wrong.) 2) There was evidence that demon blood did something in that Nick had to drink it in order for him to continue housing Lucifer. 3) If not actual power, I think that the demon blood facilitated the power either like steroids or alcohol, or a combo - where it aided the power, relaxed the inhibitions, and was physically addictive - like alcohol or actual drugs. Does Sam still have those powers and is his body still strong enough for Lucifer WITHOUT the blood. I'd say "yes" to both. I'm not so sure about the powers part, because I don't think Sam has Azazel's blood anymore, and I don't think the two things necessarily have to go together. Dean is also an archangel's host, but he doesn't have any powers nor did anyone ever suggest he might. I always thought that the powers were Azazel's thing, given to the special kids so that they could be the leader of his demon army, maybe to get things ready for Lucifer, but definitely mostly to achieve some agenda Azazel had himself first. Lucifer has his own much stronger powers (his mass execution of those many dozens of demons to call up Death made Sam's powers look downright sad), so Sam's would be redundant and likely miniscule in comparison. This is also why I tend to think of Azazel's plan and storyline as his own thing and not related to Lucifer's plan / storyline. At some point had Azazel survived, I actually think there would have been a conflict of interest, and potentially a power struggle, because the whole purpose of having a human lead the demon army was for that human to get into places and do things that demons (and potentially other supernatural beings) could not. Once the human (either Sam or Jake) was possessed by Lucifer, that advantage might be gone and the demon army would also likely not be Azazel's anymore. And in a way, I would think it should've been explored by Sam at some point - especially while Dean was missing. If he could access his powers to interrogate demons to find Dean or to fight Crowley? That would've been a huge advantage that I would think Sam would have considered in his desperate state at the beginning of season 10 at least if not earlier to help fight Abbadon in season 9. Edited March 3, 2016 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2016983
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 (edited) I have to noodle on the replies and do some rewatching re Sam's demon blood thing...Good stuff to noodle on for a while. ************************************** I have another question. "On the Head of a Pin" makes me think about a lot of things. For the longest time I thought the First Seal was some nebulous actual thing that was broken but Lilith herself was the final seal. Given the dialogue below, I am now thinking that the Righteous Man was the First Seal and thus Dean himself was the actual First Seal. When he couldn't take any more torture and forced resurrection after 30 years, he broke, hence 'We had to break the First Seal". What do you guys think? ALASTAIR: And finally you said, "Sign me up." Oh, the first time you picked up my razor, the first time you sliced into that weeping bitch...(DEAN turns to face ALASTAIR.) ALASTAIR: That was the first seal. (DEAN does not visibly react. He walks closer.)DEAN:You're lying.ALASTAIR: And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break. (DEAN turns away.) ALASTAIR: We had to break the first seal before any others. Only way to get the dominoes to fall, right? Topple the one at the front of the line.(Now that DEAN is not facing ALASTAIR, his shock is visible on his face.) ALASTAIR: When we win, when we bring on the apocalypse and burn this earth down, we'll owe it all to you, Dean Winchester. Edited March 3, 2016 by catrox14 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2017211
DittyDotDot March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 I have to noodle on the replies and do some rewatching re Sam's demon blood thing...Good stuff to noodle on for a while. ************************************** I have another question. "On the Head of a Pin" makes me think about a lot of things. For the longest time I thought the First Seal was some nebulous actual thing that was broken but Lilith herself was the final seal. Given the dialogue below, I am now thinking that the Righteous Man was the First Seal and thus Dean himself was the actual First Seal. When he couldn't take any more torture and forced resurrection after 30 years, he broke, hence 'We had to break the First Seal". What do you guys think? Yes, that's how I understood it. Dean's trip to Hell was engineered to break the first seal. They thought it would be John, but it was actually Dean. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2017241
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 (edited) Yes, that's how I understood it. Dean's trip to Hell was engineered to break the first seal. They thought it would be John, but it was actually Dean. I know it was engineered to put Dean there to torture others which would break the first seal but it didn't occur to me until now that Dean himself was the literal First Seal. Since there is only ONE Final Seal that was Lilith there should only be one First Seal. I don't believe that it was ever supposed to be John. I think that was just Alastair screwing with Dean to shake Dean's resolve when Dean was torturing him. To mess with Dean and throw him off. I think Dean was THE Righteous Man/ The First Seal. I just think that's kind of cool. Maybe part of the Arama arc will wind it's way back to Dean being The Righteous Man. Or not LOL Edited March 3, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2017247
Demented Daisy March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 (edited) I don't think that Dean, himself, was the first seal. Just like Lilith was not, technically, the final seal. I think Azazel and Co.'s plan was to break Lucifer free. I don't think the Apocalypse was their endgame -- I doubt they gave the Apocalypse any thought at all. So it didn't matter who broke the seal, John or Dean. So, yeah, I believe that John was the original Righteous Man. In fact, Azazel seemed to particularly hate John, so maybe he took pleasure in the idea of John breaking. But John didn't break and Dean sold his soul. New plan! I think the angels knew what the demons were doing and realized they could jumpstart the Apocalypse. I think that's why they didn't rescue Dean until after he broke. They needed him to break that seal. Dean being the first seal doesn't fit into the show's theme of Destiny vs Free Will. If Dean is the seal, instead of breaking the seal, then it comes down to who he is vs what choices he made, IMO. Edited for clarity. Edited March 3, 2016 by Demented Daisy 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2017540
ahrtee March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 So basically I'm saying that Ruby chose demon blood on purpose, because it actually does do at least something, so now it serves multiple purposes 1) it bonds them 2) it gives Sam a little taste of power and 3) it's something that maybe isn't a total power boost, so that there's still more to come. If it has behavioral affects - which from what I saw, it did - that's even better. And I like SueB's theory that the demon blood "taints" Sam, making him more open to using his powers therefore making his powers easier to access - which would have the same effect as the blood giving him powers, because in a way then - it does (like steroids allow for / help along muscle growth, thereby making the person stronger. Or maybe like alcohol - relaxing the inhibitions.). So in my headcanon - which I can't tell whether or not SueB's has - there is a physical component / affect of drinking the blood, and not just a mental "tainting," because for me that would explain the physical withdrawal affects. I think this would also be supported by demons (and I think angels) being able to detect the demon blood pumping through Sam's veins. Also the ghouls... who could tell that Sam's blood was physically tainted by the taste (both of which I think point to an actual physical change in Sam's blood). Sam said that his powers disappeared after Azazel died, but I think that was just him wanting to be normal, and subconsciously suppressing them. Ruby had to give him a reason to *want* to use them, and an excuse that he would accept as to why he still had them. The demon blood worked for that. I don't know if the addiction was part of that/intended, or just Sam's need to have something outside of himself causing the problems, though I like Awesome's and SueB's comments above. Now, the next question for me is, does Sam still have powers? Does he still have the demon blood? And there have been way too many conflicting stories about that. At different times, it was said that God cleared up the addiction (and possibly the blood itself); that jumping into the pit absolved him; that cleansing his soul to take on the challenges cleaned his blood, too. I think it’s just a convenient “go-to” plot device that gets pulled out when needed and ignored the rest of the time, and I don’t think we’ll get a definitive answer unless the writers need it for a grand finale. And I think it would be a cheat. I like the idea of two *humans* taking on the big guns, and winning. No super-duper-extra-powers needed. That’s Batman vs. Superman, after all. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2018755
ahrtee March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 I don't think that Dean, himself, was the first seal. Just like Lilith was not, technically, the final seal. I think Azazel and Co.'s plan was to break Lucifer free. I don't think the Apocalypse was their endgame -- I doubt they gave the Apocalypse any thought at all. I think the angels knew what the demons were doing and realized they could jumpstart the Apocalypse. I think that's why they didn't rescue Dean until after he broke. They needed him to break that seal. Dean being the first seal doesn't fit into the show's theme of Destiny vs Free Will. If Dean is the seal, instead of breaking the seal, then it comes down to who he is vs what choices he made, IMO. IA with all of this. No, Dean isn't the first seal, he's the instrument by which the seal was broken. I don't necessarily agree that John would have worked, too, because of Gabriel saying that it had to be a Cain/Abel thing of brother-against-brother; plus Ruby and Zachariah and Lucifer all telling the boys "it always had to be you." I'm pretty sure the demon endgame was just to free Lucifer, while the angels (including Lucifer himself) were planning the Apocalypse from the start, so that's where Destiny comes in. But I still think Free Will is the more important part. It seems to me that God set it up originally, even for the Apocalypse, since the angels can lead everyone right to the edge, get everything in place and waiting for the order to roll, but only the vessels have the power to say yes or no. I have a whole meta about God wanting the angels to have free will, and that’s why he sent Cas to the Winchesters, knowing that Cas was the angel most likely able and willing to learn from them, but that’s for another discussion. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2018874
Demented Daisy March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 IA with all of this. No, Dean isn't the first seal, he's the instrument by which the seal was broken. I don't necessarily agree that John would have worked, too, because of Gabriel saying that it had to be a Cain/Abel thing of brother-against-brother; plus Ruby and Zachariah and Lucifer all telling the boys "it always had to be you." I agree that the Apocalypse "had to be" Sam and Dean. But I think that Azazel made the deal with John so that John could break the first seal -- to release Lucifer. I think they were fine with John being the Righteous Man because they weren't planning on the Apocalypse. Just like Azazel created a whole bunch of his "special kids" because any of them could have killed Lilith. The way I've always understood it is that breaking the seals released Lucifer, but didn't start the Apocalypse. The Apocalypse wouldn't start until Michael and Lucifer assumed their vessels and started their little tussle. Since that never happened, Sam and Dean managed to avert the Apocalypse. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019157
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 (edited) Interesting thoughts. More to noodle on. Of course now I'm kind of wondering how either John or Dean could be the Righteous Man. I mean yes they fought monsters and saved people (especially Dean) but looking at the definitions of righteous, I'm not so sure making a deal with a crossroads demon from Hell....counts...as righteous.... Unless they were designated by God as The Righteous Man.... Righteous : adjective1.characterized by uprightness or morality: a righteous observance of the law.2.morally right or justifiable:righteous indignation.3.acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous:a righteous and godly person.4.Slang. absolutely genuine or wonderful:some righteous playing by a jazz great. Edited March 3, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019234
SueB March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 So in my headcanon - which I can't tell whether or not SueB's has - there is a physical component / affect of drinking the blood, and not just a mental "tainting," because for me that would explain the physical withdrawal affects. I think this would also be supported by demons (and I think angels) being able to detect the demon blood pumping through Sam's veins. Also the ghouls... who could tell that Sam's blood was physically tainted by the taste (both of which I think point to an actual physical change in Sam's blood). ITA with this. I was fuzzy on this and you've said it much better. This is my new headcanon; BOOM. I also think there was a mental aspect to it. For me the addiction angel DID work. Sam was jonesing for that power. And it had to have some physical effect because I don't think he would have thrown himself around the room (When the Levee Breaks). But the real test of the mental hold was after God's methadone took away the physical addiction (while putting him on the plane), Sam still had a desire for the blood. Even though it wasn't demon blood (because the people weren't really demons in "Good God, Ya'll), Sam as drawn to it. He resisted but he was drawn. Addiction is a complicated topic and I don't want to trivialize it but I do think Sam had some key elements of addictive behavior with the demon blood. On the positive side, it allowed him to save the possessed. It was helpful in a fight against opponents who were Supernaturally powerful. It made him feel like his "otherness" had a real purpose. On the negative side, it gave him a power rush -- which is hard to resist. It made him more arrogant. And of course, it led him down a path of doing the wrong thing. So even without the physical effect the blood had on him, it also was something that he was drawn to. And something he had to stay away from. I think he went so nutty in "My Bloody Valentine" because the effect of Famine was to re-introduce the physical element of the addiction. Dean or John as the Righteous Man. I'm inclined to think it was Dean only because there was no attempt by the Angels to rescue John. And if they knew what Alastair was doing, wouldn't they have started to get a siege going? And even if they waited until AFTER Dean broke (and since John never did, they didn't try), I still have a hard time connecting John as the Righteous Man who would be required to END the Apocalypse. It fails the "brothers" test. Here's what I think happened: - I think Azazel knew he's have to get a Righteous Man into helll, which is why he made the deal with John. BUT, I think the Archangels knew John wasn't "it". When Azazel realized that either John was not going to break easy OR that when he broke it DIDN'T break the seal, he realized Dean was a much better choice. After being in John's meatsuit, Azazel knew Dean's weaknesses and that he was a better candidate. Plus Sam would be much more torn up and susceptible to influence if he lost Dean than if he lost John. Which is why I think that the Crossroad Blues demon was taunting Dean and laying the groundwork for the deal. And while Jake was an "okay" choice, Azazel REALLY wanted to stick it to the Winchesters and was thus delighted when Dean made his deal. The Angels probably looked at all this and thought "it's destiny, it's working out JUST like it's supposed to". Which means, IMO, that John was never the Righteous Man. Azazel just was potentially HOPING he was. And what makes Dean righteous IMO, as opposed to John, is that Dean was not in it for revenge (like John was). Dean was in it for the "Saving People, Hunting Things" -- which IS righteous. Sure Dean stole stuff and apparently ditched women (in his own words), but living a shitty life JUST to save innocents from harm is a pretty morally right thing to do. John had other motives, which sort of takes him out of the running IMO. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019481
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 And what makes Dean righteous IMO, as opposed to John, is that Dean was not in it for revenge (like John was). Dean was in it for the "Saving People, Hunting Things" -- which IS righteous. Sure Dean stole stuff and apparently ditched women (in his own words), but living a shitty life JUST to save innocents from harm is a pretty morally right thing to do. John had other motives, which sort of takes him out of the running IMO. Okay I can buy this! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019533
ahrtee March 3, 2016 Share March 3, 2016 I agree that the Apocalypse "had to be" Sam and Dean. But I think that Azazel made the deal with John so that John could break the first seal -- to release Lucifer. I think they were fine with John being the Righteous Man because they weren't planning on the Apocalypse. Just like Azazel created a whole bunch of his "special kids" because any of them could have killed Lilith. The way I've always understood it is that breaking the seals released Lucifer, but didn't start the Apocalypse. The Apocalypse wouldn't start until Michael and Lucifer assumed their vessels and started their little tussle. Since that never happened, Sam and Dean managed to avert the Apocalypse. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head. I think Azazel made the deal with John because he needed the Colt in order to open the Hell Gate and let Lilith out. Getting John to hell was just icing on the cake. And if he broke the first seal, then so much the better. But if you believe the "destiny" part of the angel story, then it was always going to be Sam & Dean, not John. So maybe they maneuvered to get Dean to hell in the first place, carefully waited till he broke before rescuing him, and then told him about John being so strong in order to make Dean doubt himself enough so he would believe he was too weak to win, and he'd agree to let Michael wear him. Remember, even if the demons weren't planning to start the Apocalypse, there were a whole bunch of things that had to happen before Lucifer was set free, ie: 1. The vessel(s) had to be born and infected with demon blood (as Azazel said, "makes 'em big and strong, better than Wheaties"...which might also explain why Sam was so much taller than his family.) 2. A Righteous Man had to first go to hell, and then break there. 3. The Colt had to be found, because it was needed to open the Devil's Gate 4. Azazel had to actually *get* the Colt, so he could hand it to his “pageant” winner. 5. The half-demon special child had to get into the cemetery and open the Devil’s Gate 6. Lilith had to get free through the Gate. 7. Lilith had to break all the necessary seals, and *only then* 8. Lilith had to die. And I suspect she had to die at the exact spot in the convent where her blood could open Lucifer’s cage. And finally: 9. Lucifer’s vessel *had to say yes.* (Sam may have been necessary for the apocalypse, but Luci still needed a meatsuit to get around and take charge, thus, Nick) All that just to spring Luci from the cage. If *any* of those didn't happen, or happened in the wrong order (if Lilith was killed before she broke the rest of the seals, eg) then it wouldn't happen at all. I think Lucifer knew about (and was planning for) the Apocalypse. That was his endgame. After all, why rule hell when you can rule heaven, hell *and* earth? So he wanted a vessel that was "archangel compatible" (thanks, SueB!) and that could be powered up when needed to hold him. IA that Azazel probably had no clue about it. Remember, Luci didn't think much of demons in general, and had no reason to confide his plans to anyone. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019541
catrox14 March 3, 2016 Author Share March 3, 2016 (edited) I agree that the Apocalypse "had to be" Sam and Dean. But I think that Azazel made the deal with John so that John could break the first seal -- to release Lucifer. I think they were fine with John being the Righteous Man because they weren't planning on the Apocalypse. Just like Azazel created a whole bunch of his "special kids" because any of them could have killed Lilith. The way I've always understood it is that breaking the seals released Lucifer, but didn't start the Apocalypse. The Apocalypse wouldn't start until Michael and Lucifer assumed their vessels and started their little tussle. Since that never happened, Sam and Dean managed to avert the Apocalypse. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head. To use the lock and key analogy that the show loves, I look at it this way. The way I understood it is that the moment Lucifer walked free was the official start of the Apocalypse, which is why Sam and Dean kept saying they started it together. That's why the hunters wanted to kill Sam because he started the Apocalypse. Dean, as the first seal/righteous Man was the "key" more or less. They had to put the key in the lock of Lucifer's cage, which happened once he shed blood in Hell. Then the other 64 seals breaking turned the tumbler a bit further until it got to Lilith. Sam killing Lilith was the final tumbler unlocking allowing Lucifer to walk free. So together they jump started the Apocalypse but Sam stopped it from destroying humanity by saying yes to Lucifer and jumping into the pit. Edited March 3, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019634
DittyDotDot March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 (edited) Sam said that his powers disappeared after Azazel died, but I think that was just him wanting to be normal, and subconsciously suppressing them. Ruby had to give him a reason to *want* to use them, and an excuse that he would accept as to why he still had them. The demon blood worked for that. I don't know if the addiction was part of that/intended, or just Sam's need to have something outside of himself causing the problems, though I like Awesome's and SueB's comments above. Sam did say his powers were gone after they killed Yellow Eyes, but Ruby also said they weren't gone, just dormant. Since Sam was infected as a baby, I think once his powers started to surface, he always had the potential to use them, with or without Yellow Eyes' help, if he would give into them them like Ava and Jake did--granted, they were most likely getting a bit of a power assist from Yellow Eyes, too. It seemed like the more they used their powers and the less they cared about using them the stronger they got. Sam never could fully give into it, so he needed the demon blood to get the powers to surface. Much like with steroid use, I do think the blood did effect him physically, but I'm not sure he couldn't have gotten there eventually without the blood by hard work and patience. I don't think the addiction--or getting Sam to drink demon blood at all--was part of Ruby's original plan. I think she thought she would be able to garner his trust and manipulate him to willingly use his powers by dangling the offer to help get Dean out of his deal. Of course Dean put a bit of a kink in her plans in S3, so after Dean died she came back with a new plan. It still boggles the mind that Sam would ever trust Ruby enough to start drinking the blood to begin with given she was shown to be a lying liar who lies at the end of S3 and all. But, hey, what would this show be if they didn't do things that boggled the mind? Edited March 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2019744
SueB March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 It still boggles the mind that Sam would ever trust Ruby enough to start drinking the blood to begin with given she was shown to be a lying liar who lies at the end of S3 and all. But, hey, what would this show be if they didn't do things that boggled the mind? This is the same Sam who just months before lived in an alternate universe for 6 months being Robo-Sam looking for the Trickster to bring Dean back. So yeah, I can believe it. I personally think the events of Mystery Spot put a crack in Sam's mental foundation. Here's how I looked at Sam's warped mental state when Ruby 2.0 came to him: - He feels guilty for the death of his Mother and Jess because they died to 1) ensure he got infected and 2) ensure he got back to the hunting life** - He feels some second-hand guilt for their horrible upbringing. He MOSTLY blames John for it but I think he deep down believes that none of it would have happened if he hadn't been infected in the first place.** - He thinks he's a FREAK. His own father said that if Dean couldn't save him, he'd have to kill him. Which Sam definitely thinks was probably the right idea given what happened with Dean.** Sam never went "darkside" but he knows that potential must be in him because that's was he was being groomed for by Azazel. - He believed Dean should have let him stay dead.** - He believes Dean going to hell is mostly HIS (Sam's fault).** He's pissed at Dean for making the deal but Sam at this moment took all the blame on himself. - He sees all those people who got possessed by the 1000's of demons who escaped out of the Hell Gate as somewhat HIS responsibility.** - He watched Dean die 100+ times in Mystery Spot. - He ruthlessly hunted down and killed tons of creatures on his own (vampire nest amongst them per the voice recording from Bobbie played over the Mystery Spot montage). He was John Winchester on steroids, right down to having the same kind of foam case carrying his weaponry. Being driven by revenge and being a stone-cold hunter for 6 months did some emotional damage to him IMO. But it also shows the extent to which Dean's death affected him. Sam thought he had a chance to rescue Dean and he was obsessed to an extreme amount to accomplish this. - He was prepared to have BOTH he and Dean turn into Frankensteins rather than let Dean go to Hell. - He watched his brother get shredded by a Hell Hound - He dug the grave and buried his brother. Again. Because he buried him the first time in Mystery Spot. After ALL that he went thru, he had to do it again and this time there was no obvious solution. - No demon would make a deal with him. After drinking himself stupid (to the point that 3 demons got the drop on him and he barely resisted), I think he accepted Dean was dead and NOT RECOVERABLE. I think that put another crack in his mental foundation. - Sam was suicidal. Even Ruby picked up on that once they started working together. He start working with Ruby with a long term plan beyond kill Lilith and HOPEFULLY die in the process. **Note: Just because SAM thinks it's his fault does not make it true. It's just part of the warped way he generally thought of things. Look at how Dean took on personal responsibility for everything including the Lindberg baby. John raised Sam and Dean with a deep sense of personal responsibility. And it doesn't matter how much Sam resented John for it --- he still was shaped by that thinking. Many times Sam comes across as more mentally healthy than Dean but that's because IMO, Sam compartmentalizes. He both literally and physically ran away from these thoughts and life early and often. And when Dean died, there was no place to go. No place to run. And he never had really learned to forgive himself for something he didn't do. Sam was guilty for existing in Sam's mind. For being demon blood infected and a "special child". That this was not really on him was something he hadn't wrapped his noggin around. Even as late as S9, when he was feeling like shit and told by the 'virgin' eater that he was "safety pins and duct tape", Sam just wondered if maybe he would NEVER be alright. Worried that it was just "him". So, given all that.... if Ruby was offering him a way to kill Lilith and go out with some semblance of at least getting his revenge.... Sam would trust Ruby and drink demon blood. She was literally the ONLY person who was offering some option that gave him direction. But after Dean came back.... why didn't he stop?? I'd say that by that time Ruby had gotten his confidence. He told Dean flat out how she saved him from being suicidal and gave him a purpose (save possessed people rather than kill them with the knife). He had convinced himself that he could make all his "otherness" be a GOOD thing by saving people (Metamorphosis). To someone with the deep-seeded issues Sam had, this was like water in the desert. And Dean telling him he was wrong was something he couldn't stomach. Which is why he ultimately went back to Ruby. He figured HE could end the Apocalypse and thus make up for all the bad done in his name. Of course it was the wrong decision. Of course it went completely south on him. Kripke wrote him as an Aristotle "tragic hero". Morally good but after suffering greatly, destroyed by his own error in judgement. In this case, the decision to trust Ruby. Bottom Line for the TL, DR: It sucked to be Sam. Sam literally couldn't deal with the consequences of his own existence and trusted Ruby because she offered a way for him to get revenge and likely get killed in the process. Which was what he was after because death was for him the only escape from the pain of all his loss. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2020338
Lrdmordain March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 I have three lore aspects that have always confused me / raised questions for me. 1. Why did Crowley spend an entire season searching for an entrance into Purgatory when in a later season we meet a creature who fares Sam into hell via purgatory and who was clearly subservient to and scared of Crowley. I cannot believe that Crowley, the king of hell, was unaware of this creature during the purgatory search. 2. Can a demon possess an angel? In the second season opener a demon ends up possessing a reaper to revive Dean but we find out later that reapers are a class of angel. It seems rather odd that demons wouldn't go around possessing angels and learn everything they need that way instead of poking around in their heads with sharp sticks like they did to the pizza kid angel. 3. How did Cas get Sam's soul out of the cage in hell? He had to wage a war and lost many comrades getting Dean just out of hell. The cage is another whole level of security, which they've said time and again couldn't be opened except through either the seals breaking or, recently, the spell in the necronomicon. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2020777
Demented Daisy March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 (edited) Numbers 1 and 2 -- welcome to what we call Carver's LOLcanon. He's pretty bad about lazy writing, IMO. Number 3 has never been explained, IIRC. I have a vague recollection of Cas not being able to get Sam's soul, just his body, because it was so much more difficult to get into/out of the cage. Research! Yay! ETA I've read a handful of S6 transcripts and I can't find Castiel explicitly stating that he wasn't strong enough to raise Sam's body and soul, but it's the implication. He was prideful and thought he could save Sam (possibly because God had restored his body, so he believed he was "chosen", in a way), but he was wrong. Edited March 4, 2016 by Demented Daisy 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2021032
DittyDotDot March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 (edited) I have three lore aspects that have always confused me / raised questions for me. 1. Why did Crowley spend an entire season searching for an entrance into Purgatory when in a later season we meet a creature who fares Sam into hell via purgatory and who was clearly subservient to and scared of Crowley. I cannot believe that Crowley, the king of hell, was unaware of this creature during the purgatory search. 2. Can a demon possess an angel? In the second season opener a demon ends up possessing a reaper to revive Dean but we find out later that reapers are a class of angel. It seems rather odd that demons wouldn't go around possessing angels and learn everything they need that way instead of poking around in their heads with sharp sticks like they did to the pizza kid angel. 3. How did Cas get Sam's soul out of the cage in hell? He had to wage a war and lost many comrades getting Dean just out of hell. The cage is another whole level of security, which they've said time and again couldn't be opened except through either the seals breaking or, recently, the spell in the necronomicon. Cass didn't get Sam's soul out of the cage, Death did. But how Cass got Sam's body out is a total mystery. The only thing I can come up with to explain how Cass got into Hell without a legion of angels is that in the aftermath of Lucifer getting locked back up, there was a power vacuum in Hell and a lot of confusion--that's how Crowley became the King--I can believe Cass could sneak in undetected in that case. How he actually got inside the cage and escaped with Sam without getting killed by Michael or Lucifer, though? No clue. Reaper lore has gotten so convoluted since Carver took over the show, but I can sorta, kinda, perhaps maybe explain why Yellow Eyes could possess Tessa--it was the deal. Perhaps the deal-making allowed the rules of the universe to shift. Either that or Yellow Eyes was just crazy powerful in comparison. Yeah, that's all I got on that front. On the other point, I got nothing at all. It makes absolutely no sense. Welcome to the Carver years! ETA: or what the demented one said while I was trying to think of something, anything, that would explain this. ;) Edited March 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2021144
Lrdmordain March 4, 2016 Share March 4, 2016 Thanks for the ideas. Yeah I meant Sam's body, not soul, pardon that mistake. Another lore question, more recent. Didn't the Steins say that absolutely every single spell in the necronomicon came with a terrible cost and yet they used a spell from it to temporarily free lucifer from the cage with no cost what so ever. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2021513
catrox14 March 4, 2016 Author Share March 4, 2016 Thanks for the ideas. Yeah I meant Sam's body, not soul, pardon that mistake. Another lore question, more recent. Didn't the Steins say that absolutely every single spell in the necronomicon came with a terrible cost and yet they used a spell from it to temporarily free lucifer from the cage with no cost what so ever. I'm not sure about what the stynes said but I think Cas letting Lucifer possess him, would be a high cost especially if he dies. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/38238-what-in-which-we-attempt-to-address-the-wtfery-of-spn-lore-and-whatnot/page/2/#findComment-2021593
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.