Cagney & Lacey - General Discussion

[catlover79]

1 minute ago, Crs97 said:

IIRC, in an interview Tyne said she needed money after her divorce and called Sharon to ask her husband for a job.  That is how she got Christy.

I do recall reading that, but not where. One of Tyne's daughters with GSB did guest in an episode of Christy. 

[Bastet]

9 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

One of Tyne's daughters with GSB did guest in an episode of Christy. 

She (Kathryne Brown) also appeared in the first C&L reunion movie, and later had a recurring role on Judging Amy.

[Crs97]

I think I saw it on YouTube in a video interview of her career.  I will see if I can track it down and share it.

[Was-MArsenault]

Cagney & Lacey is now on This TV.

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, MikaelaArsenault said:

Cagney & Lacey is now on This TV.

I missed today’s episode, but they are now airing one episode every day of the week at 5/4CT on Start TV. 

[Was-MArsenault]

4 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I missed today’s episode, but they are now airing one episode every day of the week at 5/4CT on Start TV. 

I'm already aware of that, but thank you.

[Jaded]

2 minutes ago, MikaelaArsenault said:

I'm already aware of that, but thank you.

There are others who read the thread that might not know. Cagney & Lacey aired on This TV a few years ago and I was able to watch the whole series in order thanks to my DVR. This TV only lasted a couple years here until that channel turned into an Antenna TV affiliate. Never got Decades here sadly and don't think Start TV will make it to the area either.

[Was-MArsenault]

19 minutes ago, Jaded said:

There are others who read the thread that might not know. Cagney & Lacey aired on This TV a few years ago and I was able to watch the whole series in order thanks to my DVR. This TV only lasted a couple years here until that channel turned into an Antenna TV affiliate. Never got Decades here sadly and don't think Start TV will make it to the area either.

Then I'm sorry.

[shapeshifter]

3.5 "Baby Brokers" aired today and made me cry. 

Some of Harvey’s perspective is understandably dated, but he really was a great role model for how to be a supportive husband and loving father. 

[catlover79]

RIP John Karlen, aka Harvey Lacey. The news was verified by the Dark Shadows Fan Club and several DS cast members.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amarketnews.com/2020/01/23/john-karlen-death-obituary-abc-serial-dark/amp/

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, catlover79 said:

RIP John Karlen, aka Harvey Lacey. The news was verified by the Dark Shadows Fan Club and several DS cast members.

Aw, Harv!  That character made me so angry sometimes, but the way Karlen played him I always not only understood why Mary Beth loved him but found it a good marriage.

Tyne Daly said many times she absolutely adored working with him.

I never realized he was so much older than her.  I wonder if that kind of age difference was supposed to exist between the characters, too.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Bastet

[catlover79]

7 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Tyne Daly said many times she absolutely adored working with him.

Yes, and they stayed friends to the end. He was often her escort to awards shows and the like.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, catlover79 said:

RIP John Karlen, aka Harvey Lacey. The news was verified by the Dark Shadows Fan Club and several DS cast members.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amarketnews.com/2020/01/23/john-karlen-death-obituary-abc-serial-dark/amp/

 I am just watching the show for the first time on Start TV and have told my recently married daughter that she should watch it because Harvey is such a great husband. Yeah, I know they yell at each other a lot, but they never hit each other, and they always wind up kissing and making up in a really sweet way rather than just sexual. 
Anyway, this news is sad to me because I feel like I just got to know him. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I never realized he was so much older than her.  I wonder if that kind of age difference was supposed to exist between the characters, too.

It looks to me like he was playing younger, and this fan site claims that's the case: "Harve is approximately the same age."

 

 

[shapeshifter]

And now I just (for the first time) saw 6.21 “Turn, Turn, Turn (Part 1)” in which Charlie dies.  Wow. Heartbreaking. I can’t think of any shows that do drama like on Cagney and Lacey, especially season 6. Sharon Gless won an Emmy for the episode. I can’t imagine anyone else more deserving. 
Seeing this just after the real life death of John Karlen (Harvey) made it even more linked to reality for me. Cathartic.  

[shapeshifter]

Does anyone have any leads 😉 on what became of Cagney's sweaters?

[shapeshifter]

I realize this is a long shot on such an inactive thread, but anyway:
Cagney and Lacey is eligible for the 2020 Primetimers Awards category of "GOAT: Greatest Show Of All Time," so maybe someone would like to nominate it?
(https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/109414-goat-greatest-show-of-all-time/)

(Cagney and Lacey made my short list of 6, but there is a 3-per-poster limit per category, and I didn't nominate it.) 

ETA: Too late now. Maybe next year?

Edited June 6, 2020 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

Does anyone on Cagney & Lacey ever successfully tail someone without getting stuck in traffic?

[VCRTracking]

Bill Conti on composing the C&L theme:

 

 

[Tuff M.]

On 2/1/2016 at 11:38 AM, iwasish said:

My favorite continuing bit on this show was Harvey's obsession with JFK's assassination and Marybeth having to remind him that they agreed to only talk about it on one day a year.

Am I the only one who sometimes hates the way Cagney acts like she knows everything and is a better cop than Lacey. I get kinda pissed when she starts to run her mouth or threatens to get a new partner is Lacey doesn’t say or do things exactly how Cagney wants her too. Like when Cagney asked Lacey to lie in court for her because she knew she entrapped the guy but all she cared about was getting the arrest even if it meant blackmailing her partner into lying for her or she would find a new partner. And then again when Mary Beth tried to tell Cagney she was going to get that kid she turned into an informant killed, she ignored Lacey again, pushed the kid even harder, forced Mary Beth to rush in to arrest the drug bosses without backup all so she could get her arrest, and then Cagney walks into the station expecting people to be cheering for her only to be told she did in fact get the kid killed, and the money she paid him shoved in his mouth after he was dead, and then she gets put up for an award, why just Cagney? Lacey was there too, she made the arrest too, so why is it she only got honorable mention but Cagney got a whole freaking assembly? It makes no sense, Cagney always gets the recognition even when she screws up and gets a kid killed and she always talks down to Lacey, and if Cagney doesn’t get her way, she yells, throws a fit, gets Lacey to compromise her own morals to appease Cagney’s and if she does t then she threatens to drop Lacey as a partner, what kind of a friend and partner acts like that, or treats their partner like that. Cagney never compromises anything for Lacey. If I was Lacey I’d of slapped Cagney and told her to get herself a new partner, no one is gunna ask me to compromise my morals and lie for them and then threaten me if I don’t. It’s all about Cagney, and if you don’t go along with what she says and wants then you ain’t good enough or smart enough to be her partner. Just one time I’d like to see Lacey tell Cagney to go to hell. The first time Cagney threatened to find a new partner if Lacey didn’t lie for her Lacey should have dropped her, all Cagney cares about is Cagney and that is no more apparent than when Cagney tells Lacey that Lacey getting pregnant was inconvenient for Cagney cause Lacey didn’t ask if it was ok with Cagney first and because she had to get a new partner. I can’t be the only one who hates when Cagney acts this way.

[Bastet]

Sure, but one of the things I like about the show is that we're supposed to hate Cagney when she acts that way.  She was written and acted as an incredibly flawed and in fact problematic person, someone who would die for Mary Beth without a second thought but who is on a day-to-day basis not as good a partner to Mary Beth as Mary Beth is to her, and often not much of a friend.

The job is her entire identity (and that's all tied up in her idolization of her equally-problematic father), while Mary Beth likes the job and takes pride in it, but takes a more pragmatic view of it (especially for the benefits it provides, a necessity given Harvey's sporadic/self employment) and could be equally happy doing something else.

So Christine is highly unlikable at times, in a way female characters were rarely allowed to be then, but she's written and performed with the dimension and nuance necessary for us to understand her; to be angry with her at one turn and cheering her on the next.  And Mary Beth is written and performed with the dimension and nuance to rise far above the "straight man" role; she's not a long-suffering saint or a fool, but someone who makes a practical evaluation of what she will and will not accept.

Their partnership is never held up as perfect, nor is it supposed to be good that a cop employing Cagney's style - which is, again, largely owing to Charlie's example, more in line with the typical way of doing things (which, of course, being a male-dominated paramilitary organization, is not the best way, just the accepted way) - gets more attention, kudos, and acceptance than a cop employing Mary Beth's style.  We see the problems with that reality, when most cops shows just celebrated it.

[shapeshifter]

Just FYI:
Martin Cove is going to be on Dancing With the Stars. 

Mom loved to watch, but I don't think that's enough for me to start.

[Bastet]

Martin Kove was a sexist idiot back in the day, giving interviews in which he used feminist as a negative and whined the show makes all the men look bad and repeatedly "emasculates" his character, so hopefully he pulled his head out of his ass at some point.

[Bastet]

Speaking of sexism, when the TV movie was getting ready to premiere, the creators courted feminist leaders and media to promote it; most notably, they sent the script to Gloria Steinem at Ms., and she loved it.  She put it on the cover, and had (famous, fabulous, feminist film critic) Marjorie Rosen write the article about its importance.  She also went on Donahue with Loretta Swit to promote the movie and advocate for it going to series.

The CBS promo department, on the other hand, stuck with exploitation advertising – emphasizing sex and danger.  Look at the difference:

[Jaded]

26 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Martin Kove was a sexist idiot back in the day, giving interviews in which he used feminist as a negative and whined the show makes all the men look bad and repeatedly "emasculates" his character, so hopefully he pulled his head out of his ass at some point.

He's also a Scientologist. I only learned about that fact in the Scientology Aftermath forum here since I hadn't really kept up with him before that. 

I was watching the first season of Cagney & Lacey on Start TV earlier this month. I had only seen those episodes once before a few years ago. I noticed the men were giving off sexist vibes a lot more clearly then they were in the seasons after that one.

The retooling that occurred starting with the second season including recasting Cagney seemed to soften that character and the male characters behavior towards the two women a bit compared to the first one. I liked Meg Foster as Chris Cagney and feel bad that she lost her job because of some people (including CBS execs)  thinking she apparently acted to much like a lesbian. The show was lucky that Tyne Daily clicked well with both Meg and Sharon. 

I haven't seen the TV movie with Loretta Swift as of yet. I just searched and see that it's on YT in an upload that's good in quality so I'm thinking I'll be watching it soon. 

[Bastet]

It was such a struggle to get and keep the show on the air.  Here's probably more than anyone wants to know:

Phase I: The Feature Film

C&L was originally conceived (by the two Barbaras, Avedon and Corday) and pitched (by Barney Rosenzweig) back in 1974 as a film – a feminist buddy movie (since there had never been a female equivalent of Butch & Sundance and the rest) that used the gender switch to spoof the buddy films, but also to show women working and talking together, not as competitors.  A production company was interested and paid the Barbaras to write the script, which they did, basing the relationship between the characters on their own partnership – Corday was more Mary Beth and Aveday more Cagney.

But studio execs kept thinking of the characters in terms of how the men around them would view them sexually, and all the studios they shopped it to complained they weren’t “feminine” enough.  Sherry Lansing – then second or third in command at MGM – convinced her boss to make it, but he imposed ridiculous requirements that simply couldn’t be met (namely, casting well known sex symbols Raquel Welch and Ann Margaret [the Barbaras wanted Paula Prentiss and Sally Kellerman], but on a tiny budget that meant they couldn’t be afforded) and it sat for five years. 

Phase II: The TV Movie

In 1980, Barney tried pitching it again, this time to the networks as a series.  Avedon rewrote it (Corday was working as an exec in comedy development at ABC by then) as a realistic crime drama rather than a spoof.  CBS didn’t want it as a series, but agreed to make it as a TV movie.  But, of course, they wanted two sexy young actors in the roles.  Barney explained one was a mother, the other a career cop; these needed to be women, not girls, and they’re certainly not sex objects.  They were at an impasse for a while, until CBS agreed to cast Tyne Daly if Loretta Swit (with whom they had a pay or play deal and needed to put her in something) would be Cagney.

As I noted, feminist media loved it and helped promote it.  The TV movie picked up a 42 share (CBS normally got 28-29 in the 8 pm Thursday timeslot), so the series execs (different than the TV movie execs at CBS) who’d turned it down initially called Barney the next day saying they’d changed their mind and wanted it as a series, even though Swit wasn't available and there would need to be a new Cagney.

Phase III: The series, season one (the Meg Foster episodes)

Publicity in advance of the series actually emphasized the themes of women working in traditionally masculine jobs fighting sexism, since that was explicitly addressed in the episodes.  Reviews were generally positive, and virtually all discussed the feminist viewpoint of the series, sometimes positively, but sometimes claiming the chauvinism and sexist double standards were exaggerated.  There was also a ton of brazen analysis of the leads’ physical appearances.

The premiere aired directly against the premiere of the 9 to 5 series, harming the ratings of both shows (since the target audience would be interested in both, but only be able to watch one).  Rather than a schedule change, CBS stopped promoting it after just two episodes, and wanted to cancel it.

Barney convinced one exec to give the show a Sunday at 10:00 slot (normally occupied by a Trapper John re-run), and the production company paid to promote that airing, sending the actors on a week-long cross-country tour of major urban areas.  It got a 34 share and ranked seven, but the top brass at CBS thought that a fluke.  The exec who’d granted the timeslot said he’d champion the show to his boss, but only if Foster was replaced with someone "more feminine" and the characters, especially Chris, were written as less aggressive (specifically in terms of "women’s lib"), because they were coming across like “dykes”.  Also that Chris’s background change from working class city to wealthy suburb.

When these upcoming changes were publicized, a segment of the audience and some (female) entertainment journalists were vocal in their opposition to this narrow vision of “femininity” and the idea that the old presentation of two NYC cops was too "tough" and "aggressive".

Phase IV: The series, take two - season two, with Sharon Gless as Cagney

When the retooled show premiered, press focus was first all about the differences between season one and season two (with probably record use of the word “feminine”).  As that died down, it returned to one of the main themes of first season coverage – the difference between the “real women” on C&L and the sexpots on so many other shows. 

The season was a critical darling, but the ratings were not great (timeslot competition was primarily female-oriented TV movies), and CBS canceled it.  Barney coordinated a letter-writing campaign – not just to the studio, but to major newspapers, so that the public was aware – which was publicized by NOW.  The letters all emphasized the same thing: 1) how important and personally empowering it was to see smart, capable, strong women on TV, so the show should be given a proper chance to find its audience, and 2) the chemistry between the actors and the relationship between the characters makes them role models important for women and girls to see on their screens.

During the off-season, the show received four Emmy nominations (and Tyne won Best Actress), and the reruns were in the top ten all summer. 

Phase V:  Okay, maybe not canceled - Season 3a

In light of all the above, CBS relented, somewhat – they ordered a seven-episode trial run.  Trying to keep the show on the air, producers – including Barney – started to think more in conventional network terms than women’s movement terms not just in writing the characters, but in dressing them.  Sharon – who wanted to continue doing her own hair the way she thought Chris would have it, not done professionally in a way made to bounce and look good on camera, told Barney, “Fine, you can have my hair for those seven weeks; after that, it’s mine again”.  Tyne told him to get stuffed: She’d continue to shop with the wardrobe designer in the sale/clearance section of NYC department stores, where Mary Beth would get her clothes, she’d keep her hair and make-up no fuss, and her weight would fluctuate.

(Tyne and Barney had a standoff during the filming of “Burn Out” [Mary Beth’s nervous breakdown episode, for which she won the Emmy], because he wanted her in make-up for the day two scenes, and she wanted to go without because her character had been sitting on a beach for 24 hours losing her mind, not reapplying eyeliner; they compromised on minimal make-up.)

Phase VI: Okay, definitely not canceled - season 3b and beyond

After the trial period, the series was renewed for the full season.  With a little more security under their belt, the producers went back to writing more feminist storylines.  CBS mostly confined its network notes to arguing about Christine’s “promiscuity” – they wanted her at least in a steady relationship with one man (but the audience didn’t like her only dating Dory).

The show won the Best Drama Emmy for seasons 3 and 4, and Tyne again won the acting Emmy those years.  Sharon won the category in seasons 5 and 6, and Tyne again in season 7.

Phase VII, the "menopause years" TV movies, is its own complicated story of network changes and broken promises, which is why we only got four of them and on such a weird schedule.

[JAYJAY1979]

I do.recall my mom always liking meg Foster...but she thought she and Tyne Daly were too similar.

She said Sharon Gless's take was a mix of sexy and intensity...and played as a good contrast to Tyne's more low key Lacey.

If you look at the tv movie version, Swit and Daly were opposite of one another...which was lost with Foster playing the role.

[Egg McMuffin]

Gless’ Cagney had a wonderful snarkiness and humor that contrasted so well with the earthier Lacey. I loved seeing Cagney put down Victor or some other character with a smile. It simply wasn’t the same with Foster in the role.

[littlebennysmom]

I've been DVRing Cagney & Lacey on StartTV, and while many here have commented on the many cringeworthy moments that were part and parcel of the time, the worst of all to me is f-ing teeny, tiny equipment Isbecki -- just the grossest to me, probably because I totally would have gone for him back in the day (he was a regular in Tiger Beat magazine then).

Preening, dismissive braggart, dumb as a box of rocks -- barf.  

And I love Lacey/Tyne Daly so much.