Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[ByTor]

16 hours ago, deaja said:

 Part of teaching is reaching your students, and he said several times he only cared about the math. 

The problem, though, is that he couldn't reach Ally because she was getting googly eyed over a boy in class.  I don't blame the teacher for not caring about that, plus I'm not so sure what he was supposed to do about it.  Tell her to stop & she would automatically listen?  Well, hell why not, "be nice" is how they got Ally to stop with the bullying! :)

Ray & Debra did the right thing by talking to the teacher, who told them that she wasn't paying attention.  IMO it's now up to Ray & Debra to give her the lecture & not let her off the hook like they did.

[Guest]

I think Ray and Debra let her off the hook way too easily, but I also thought the teacher was a jerk.  

[BlossomCulp]

Well Debra did talk to Allie at the end and told her she did need to bring up her marks and that even though she agreed about Mr Putnam being "sooooo mean" that didn't mean getting an F was an option.  She also suggested that after class was the time to talk to her friends.

What struck me about this episode was that you're never given the impression that Tommy returned Allie's feelings but in the end he calls her (Ray finds the phone in the fridge) so it wasn't an unrequited crush I guess :).

[qtpye]

I can't say I always liked Debra, but I could understand some of her frustrations.  This show has not aged well for me.  I wonder if one of the problems is that it really had a very 1950's mindset.  Men are one way and women are the other-not always very progressive.

I think now a days a lot of women would love to stay home with the kids, but simply do not have that option financially.  There was an episode of South Park where they put all the Girls in Home Ec and the boys in shop.  One girl wanted to be in shop and the teacher told her that she was pretty and did not have to worry about learning any shop skills, since a man would financially take care of her, and only ugly girls work.  Of course, it is South Park, so it was not going to be PC.

I think a lot of Debra's complaints sound like the privilege of woman at a certain economic level,  I do not think they were rich, but they did not have to worry about money.  I myself have two kids, work full time, and a husband who travels a lot.  I should also say that I am not close to any family geographically to help me out.  I love my life and think I am a much happier person then Debra.  I should also say my husband pretty much does nothing around the house.  My story is pretty common.  Some of my female friends who are wealthier ( they are doctors) also do not have husbands that help very much, actually employ part time maids to pick up the slack.  I think there is a prejudice that the house is a woman's duty, no matter if she works or stays at home.  Marie certain thought she was hot shit because she kept a clean house and was a good cook.  She felt this made her superior to other women, never mind that she was a horrible person.

[BlossomCulp]

15 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Marie certain thought she was hot shit because she kept a clean house and was a good cook. 

What struck me a few days ago with regard to this was how cluttered Marie's house could often be.  Especially the kitchen.  Marie didn't seem to me to be the type of person who would keep shampoo or dish soap or the like out on her counter tops but things like that are almost always there.  Same with the rest of the kitchen.  Always stuff out.  I guess I expect a Mrs Clean to keep things tucked away out of sight more than Marie did.  Of course likely this was down to the set designers wanting to make a house look lived in.

[ByTor]

11 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

What struck me a few days ago with regard to this was how cluttered Marie's house could often be.  Especially the kitchen.  Marie didn't seem to me to be the type of person who would keep shampoo or dish soap or the like out on her counter tops but things like that are almost always there.  Same with the rest of the kitchen.  Always stuff out.  I guess I expect a Mrs Clean to keep things tucked away out of sight more than Marie did.  Of course likely this was down to the set designers wanting to make a house look lived in.

Exactly!!!  The top of her fridge is a mess!

[Inquisitionist]

17 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think a lot of Debra's complaints sound like the privilege of woman at a certain economic level,  I do not think they were rich, but they did not have to worry about money. 

I think this is true of a lot of sitcoms.  From what I recall reading and hearing in interviews, they wanted the Barone homelife to mirror Ray Romano's but without having Ray Barone be a stand-up comic.  So they made him a sportswriter as something that would seem to have a bit of status as well as flexibility for him to be home or traveling as storylines dictated.  The focus was never really on his job: it was about the comic aspects of relationships between adult children and their parents.  As long as the show made me laugh from a place of essential truth, I cut it a lot of slack on the details -- and I usually did laugh quite a bit.

17 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

What struck me a few days ago with regard to this was how cluttered Marie's house could often be.  Especially the kitchen.  Marie didn't seem to me to be the type of person who would keep shampoo or dish soap or the like out on her counter tops but things like that are almost always there.  Same with the rest of the kitchen.  Always stuff out.  I guess I expect a Mrs Clean to keep things tucked away out of sight more than Marie did.  Of course likely this was down to the set designers wanting to make a house look lived in.

My Italian mother certainly has the type of spotless, well-organized household you're describing!  :-)

[BlossomCulp]

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

My Italian mother certainly has the type of spotless, well-organized household you're describing!  :-)

Marie, at least in the cooking and cleaning department, reminds me of my grandmother and there is no way my Gran would have had anything left out on the counters or on top of the fridge if she could help it!  She was like Marie in that she'd vacuum the house and then have another go out at!  She also mopped her kitchen floor every day, EVERY DAY, and cooked the best food I have ever eaten in my life.  She could be, um, forceful in expressing her opinions, but she wasn't evil. She was Marie light :).

[Inquisitionist]

17 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

She also mopped her kitchen floor every day, EVERY DAY, and cooked the best food I have ever eaten in my life.  

My now-retired Italian father wipes up the floor if so much as a crumb drops on it.  LOL! 

[ByTor]

My extremely neat & clean Slovak mother would sooner undergo torture than leave anything out on her counters.  When I lived with my parents, I had a coat from another season folded on the floor of my bedroom closet (out of season & was taking up too much room if I hung it).  My mother saw it, probably when she was vacuuming the closet floor, and exclaimed "I can't live like this!" and thus moved my coat.  The way I look at a closet, it's one of those "what you don't see won't hurt you" kind of deals :)

[CherryAmes]

On 9/20/2017 at 1:00 PM, ByTor said:

The problem, though, is that he couldn't reach Ally because she was getting googly eyed over a boy in class.  I don't blame the teacher for not caring about that, plus I'm not so sure what he was supposed to do about it.

I don't blame him for not caring about that but I do blame him for not caring about his students at all.  He made it clear that he didn't care why they were having problems.  Did not care at all.  So the kid who is coming to school hungry or whose parents are going through a divorce or whatever is on the same level as far as he was concerned as the kid who has a crush on a boy in the class.  Mr Putnam was a jerk.  But man the actor who portrayed him was all kinds of awesome!!

[Maharincess]

I didn't know it was considered weird to mop the kitchen floor every day. I mop my kitchen and bathroom floors every day. I also vacuum every day.  But I'm an oddball and I love doing housework.  I turn the music up loud and start cleaning. 

[ByTor]

*Asking @Maharincess if she wants to be my roommate :)

[FormerMod-a1]

If you cook every day (or nearly every day) and/or have family and/or have pets (and/or other factors I'm sure I'm forgetting) the floors get dirty fast, and noticeably so.  Some floors also show the dirt more than others due to color or material.  One crumb stands out like a sore thumb in my kitchen.  That said, I don't sweep or mop every day, but I do it way more often than I ever thought I would.

[CherryAmes]

My grandmother was a mop the floor everyday kind of housewife (and she would have been proud to call herself a housewife) and it was understandable when she had a big family at home and heated with a coal stove and the like!  Not so much in her later years when they lived in a snug little bungalow and it was just her and my grandfather most of the time.  To be honest I think it was partly that this was just part of her routine and she couldn't or wouldn't change but also  because her standards were so high that a crumb on the floor didn't get wiped with a paper towel it meant "battle stations!!!" and out came the mop and bucket!  And chiming in to agree that my grandmother never would have left an empty cake tote on her fridge and I see that one on top of Marie's fridge a lot.

Edited September 28, 2017 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

11 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I don't blame him for not caring about that but I do blame him for not caring about his students at all.  He made it clear that he didn't care why they were having problems. 

I assumed he meant he didn't care if their problems were related to teen drama, not that he didn't care at all.  Of course I love the actor who played him too, so maybe I'm just making excuses ?

[CherryAmes]

Quote

I don't care what her problem is. Your sister-in-law isn't the only one that knows that Ally likes Tommy Sanders. Everybody knows! Ally likes Tommy, and Suzy likes Tommy, and blah-blah likes Bucky, and who-who likes Beebie, and none of it has anything to do with math! Their, their home lives and their love lives and their social lives are not my problem. (points to blackboard) That is my problem. And the answer is pi. You see? Nobody cares about the work, even though that is the business of this classroom. 

I think it's pretty clear he genuinely does not care about his students at all.  And Robert Joy just sold it!  Totally awesome, and one of many totally awesome guest stars for ELR.  Whoever did the casting did an incredible job!

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

I think it's pretty clear he genuinely does not care about his students at all.  And Robert Joy just sold it!  Totally awesome, and one of many totally awesome guest stars for ELR.  Whoever did the casting did an incredible job!

Just out of curiosity, what is a teacher who "cares" about his students supposed to do in this situation?  As I recall it, Ally's problem was that she didn't pay attention in class.  The teacher brought this to her parents' attention.  Aren't they then supposed to deal with the problem and get their child to focus?

I agree that the actor was terrific!

[CherryAmes]

In the specific case of Allie I agree the teacher probably can't do much, and I didn't blame him for not caring that teenagers get crushes on other teenagers!  It was his whole attitude towards his students that I found horrible.  If you are invested in your subject to the exclusion of caring about the people you are teaching then don't teach high schoolers!  But like I said earlier I too questioned the need for Debra to go back and inform Mr Putnam of Allie's problem.  What did she expect him to do with this information exactly?

Edited September 28, 2017 by CherryAmes

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 9/28/2017 at 11:02 AM, CherryAmes said:

In the specific case of Allie I agree the teacher probably can't do much, and I didn't blame him for not caring that teenagers get crushes on other teenagers!  It was his whole attitude towards his students that I found horrible.  If you are invested in your subject to the exclusion of caring about the people you are teaching then don't teach high schoolers!  But like I said earlier I too questioned the need for Debra to go back and inform Mr Putnam of Allie's problem.  What did she expect him to do with this information exactly?

Special ed teacher chiming in here:  that scene cracked me up because I have said, directly to my students:  "In loving Christian kindness.....I don't care."  I don't care that they have a shoelace untied, or that they lost a pencil or any other minutia detail that has no direction relation to the (fill in the blank) assignment.  I care A LOT of grammar, writing and math skills, that is my job.  But for Debra to go back and tell him that Allie had a crush on Tommy  No. One. Cares.  At. All. 

Then for Debra to say. "He is mean!" was......gee thanks for the support there, Mrs. Barone!

Having said that, I will say I have a "thing" about math teachers:  They can be a little, how can I say this......rigid.  That character was SPOT ON.  

On 9/28/2017 at 10:58 AM, Inquisitionist said:

The teacher brought this to her parents' attention.  Aren't they then supposed to deal with the problem and get their child to focus?

In a perfect world, yes.  But waaaaay too many parents blame the teacher for the documented fact that your child can not pay attention for more than five minutes.  Trust me, I have a reward chart for three (yes three) sixth graders to wait five minutes outside my door until it is Math time without standing up and waving and yelling to friends in the lunchroom.  Sixth. Grade.

[CherryAmes]

Speaking as a parent here though I do have to say that Mr Putnam was lucky Debra didn't file a complaint with the principal or other school authorities over the way he popped off at her!  It made for a funny scene but would a teacher really talk to a parent the way Mr Putnam talked (well yelled really) to Debra?

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

 It made for a funny scene but would a teacher really talk to a parent the way Mr Putnam talked (well yelled really) to Debra?

I don't remember the scene in enough detail, but (a) it's a comedy, and (b) didn't the Barone kids attend parochial school?  I think teachers there have more latitude.

[Mrs. Hanson]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

4 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

 It made for a funny scene but would a teacher really talk to a parent the way Mr Putnam talked (well yelled really) to Debra?

I don't remember the scene in enough detail, but (a) it's a comedy, and (b) didn't the Barone kids attend parochial school?  I think teachers there have more latitude.

I don't remember the scene either, was it where he was saying "We all know Allie likes Tommy!"  and then proceeded to name all the other crushes in the class?  To me, he was not yelling.  Frustrated and agitated, yes but not yelling.

Parochial schools have one advantage:  Your kid is acting a fool and not behaving?  We won't cash your tuition check and see you in public school!  (I work in public school, btw.)  I for one would never yell or talk to a parent in a condescending manner as I do not like being spoken to in that way either.

[CherryAmes]

I saw that episode fairly recently and he was pretty horrible.  He was talking about how he doesn't care about the kids and why they are having a hard time in his class.  He was straight up rude to Debra.  Sure it may have come from a point of frustration but it wasn't frustration because he couldn't reach the kids or because the kids misbehaved and he had no control over them, it was frustration that the kids didn't adore math,  It was unrealistic and something he himself acknowledged.  

Parochial schools may have more latitude in how they teach their classes (and what they teach) but I seriously doubt they have more latitude in how they talk to a concerned parent.  However stupid it was of Debra to come in to see Mr Putnam again it was all kinds of wrong for him to behave the way he did.  But I totally get that this is a sitcom not a documentary so I'll give it a pass!

[Guest]

16 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Parochial schools may have more latitude in how they teach their classes (and what they teach) but I seriously doubt they have more latitude in how they talk to a concerned parent. 

Most parochial schools I know have to put up with a lot more from parents because the school needs to keep the tuition money flowing.  But as I often think about this show, everything is exaggerated for comedic effect. 

I watched "The Family Bed" last night and it's definitely one where I put Debra in the "shrill harpy" side of the equation.  She tells Ray to handle Ally's bedtime issues because she's tired (because he's not allowed to be tired) but then complains and undermines him the entire time.  Letting a child cry it out and not giving into their cries isn't for everyone, but it's how Ray was handling it (and is often the recommended way to handle it). But in Debra's mind, Ray was just lazy and she just unilaterally decided he had to deal with the issue, he couldn't deal with it how he wanted, and he couldn't use his parents' help.  And the show never addressed it - they just acted like Ray was 100% wrong.

[ByTor]

40 minutes ago, deaja said:

"The Family Bed"

This is one I hate so much I always skip it on rewatches.

[Guest]

Just now, ByTor said:

This is one I hate so much I always skip it on rewatches.

I usually do as well, but I didn't skip it because I thought maybe I would like it better.  (I've done this with several episodes lately. It never works. Apparently, my judgment is impeccable.) 

[ByTor]

Same with me @deaja.  I've tried so hard with the one where Frank gets man of the year at his lodge & the one where Debra's parents take the Barones out to dinner & Ray's family acts like they've never seen a restaurant before.

[Inquisitionist]

5 hours ago, ByTor said:

This is one I hate so much I always skip it on rewatches.

Isn't Family Bed the script they used when trying to make a Russian version of ELR?  I watched the documentary Exporting Raymond a few years ago and seem to recall that...

[Maharincess]

I just watched the Super Bowl episode again and even after seeing it about 5 times, I still don't understand why Debra got so mad. Ray had told her that he'd be busy and didn't invite her, so when he did invite her why did she get so mad when he suggested that she go with the other wives who seemed to be her friends? She already knew that he wouldn't be able to spend a lot if time with her.   I hated Debra in that one. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Maharincess said:

I just watched the Super Bowl episode again and even after seeing it about 5 times, I still don't understand why Debra got so mad. Ray had told her that he'd be busy and didn't invite her, so when he did invite her why did she get so mad when he suggested that she go with the other wives who seemed to be her friends? She already knew that he wouldn't be able to spend a lot if time with her.   I hated Debra in that one. 

I totally agree.  He didn't realize she should be there, but then he tried making it right by having her come in.  But then because he was going to golf - which he was expected to do for work- she got pissy because it wasn't just about her.  And instead of trying to talk to him about it, she did her passive aggressive "I'm just going home."  Then he panicked and ripped up the Super Bowl tickets, which REALLY bothered me!

[BlossomCulp]

He wasn't golfing for work.  That episode bugs me because it's obvious Ray was down there to have fun and it never even crossed his mind to invite Debra along until he saw all the other wives down there and realized if she found out about it she was going to be pissed off.  And I don't blame her!  Sure she overreacted when she realized he only invited her down so they could have sex every night but he was the idiot who destroyed not only his superbowl ticket but Gianni's as well.  Idiot.

[Guest]

It was a golf outing all the reporters who were covering the Super Bowl were going to. To me, that's golfing for work.  He traveled for work often and never saw guys bringing their wives, so I don't think it occurred to him that this might be different.  Other than her whining, I never saw an indication he invited her there for sex.  I think it was more he realized it was a husband/wife thing, and she would be pissed if she found out the other wives were there.

[BlossomCulp]

I saw it differently.  This wasn't the same thing as travelling for work where he was covering games.  This was an all expenses provided trip to the superbowl - which he wasn't even covering for work because if that were the case he wouldn't have needed a ticket!  I liken this trip to someone going to a conference - you might have to attend a few meetings or whatever but mostly your time is your own to socialize as you see fit.  Ray must have realized that because otherwise why invite Gianni?  We see no indication in any other episode that Ray habitually invited friends along when he travelled for work.  It would have been all kinds of inappropriate really,

[ByTor]

On 11/15/2017 at 10:09 PM, Maharincess said:

Ray had told her that he'd be busy and didn't invite her, so when he did invite her why did she get so mad when he suggested that she go with the other wives who seemed to be her friends?

And the other wives certainly didn't seem to be upset.  Debra really made a fool of herself with her "I'm not getting on a damn shuttle" snit.

Edited November 17, 2017 by ByTor

[Maharincess]

40 minutes ago, ByTor said:

And the other wives certainly didn't seem to be upset.  Debra really made a fool of herself with her "I'm not getting on a damn shuttle" snit.

Not only did she make a fool out of herself, she also made it really uncomfortable and awkward for the other couple standing there. 

I know he was golfing instead of working but as @deaja said it was a golf outing that the other reporters were also attending so it was a work event.  Debra had already been warned that Ray would be too busy to spend time with her. 

In this instance, I vote "shrew harpie". 

[ByTor]

When Raymond announced he was going to the Super Bowl he said "The paper's sending me to Tampa to cover the Friday press conference, and then I get to hang out and go to the game on Sunday," so it was a work trip.  It sounds like Friday's schedule was covering the press conference, followed by golf, then dinner.  It's not like Debra would have been alone or stuck with people she didn't know...she at least seemed chummy with Mary Jo.  Also, since the press conference was Friday, Saturday would have been a free day, so Ray & Debra could have hung out all day, but no, the whole trip had to be about her, even though, as @Maharincess said, she was warned he'd be working.  If he wanted to golf on Saturday also, however, then I wouldn't blame her for being pissed.

[CherryAmes]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:46 AM, BlossomCulp said:

Ray must have realized that because otherwise why invite Gianni? 

Exactly!!  Everytime I see this episode I think "if that had been MY husband and it never even crossed his little pea brain to invite me along there would have been Big Trouble!!"  And to cap it off not only didn't he include Debra it never occurred to him that Robert or Frank might have appreciated the chance to go to the SuperBowl?  Ray screwed up from the get go and then capped it off by destroying those tickets.   Debra being upset about the circumstances of the trip pale in comparison to Ray's behavior!

Edited November 17, 2017 by CherryAmes

[Guest]

I do think it was inexcusable that he offered Gianni the trip immediately without consulting Debra.  If that had been the basis for the argument, I would not fall on the side of "Shrill Harpy" on this one.  Lots of people who don't watch football would love a trip to the Super Bowl.  IT'S THE SUPER BOWL!

[Maharincess]

I understand him inviting Gianni instead of Frank or Robert. Which one would he choose? Not only are they family so it would be hard to pick which one gets to go but imagine going anywhere with either one. It would be miserable. Robert would be whining about everything and Frank would be bitching about everything. I'd choose Gianni as well. 

Edited to add: I love this place. This is about the only place on the internet that I've seen where we can disagree with each other but do it in a polite, respectful way. Nobody is calling anybody else stupid etc. for their opinions.  It's so nice to see. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Maharincess

[CherryAmes]

9 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

I understand him inviting Gianni instead of Frank or Robert. Which one would he choose?

I can understand it up to a point but based on what we see he never even considered asking Debra, Frank or Robert he immediately invited Gianni.  It made for some funny moments, which is, of course, the whole point of a sitcom. But in real life?  Hoo boy I wouldn't want to be in Ray's shoes.  

[BlossomCulp]

59 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

I can understand it up to a point but based on what we see he never even considered asking Debra, Frank or Robert he immediately invited Gianni. 

Yeah, him backtracking and saying something along the lines of "how would I choose" reminded me of the episode where Ray and Debra have to choose a guardian for the kids when they are making their will.  In their entire conversation before choosing Bernie and Linda they only (if memory serves) briefly discuss their respective parents.  I don't recall Robert being mentioned once and yet later it's all "you have such a dangerous job Robert and yada yada" as if they had ever seriously given him any consideration in choosing.  And then later when Bernie and Linda turn them down do they even then consider Robert as a possible guardian?  I don't think they do.

[ByTor]

On 11/17/2017 at 4:41 PM, BlossomCulp said:

And then later when Bernie and Linda turn them down do they even then consider Robert as a possible guardian?  I don't think they do.

You're right, they don't, they default to Frank & Marie

[OneWouldHope]

On 10/3/2017 at 4:29 PM, Inquisitionist said:

Isn't Family Bed the script they used when trying to make a Russian version of ELR?  I watched the documentary Exporting Raymond a few years ago and seem to recall that...

They used the one with the already opened orange juice for the Russian pilot, IIRC. I don’t remember the other storyline though...

[WildStyle]

Well Phil Rosenthal meant for Ray to be the problem. If you have the DVD's it's on the commentary track. Phil says he gets questions from fans asking why Debra is so mean to Ray. Phil says it's because Ray has earned it.  And they tried to drive that point home in Sleepover at Peggy's. Peggy comes off like a complete bitch, and we find out she had a husband just like Ray. He never listened, or helped her. He lied about everything. And the only time she had any worth to him is if he wanted sex for 8 min. Finally, she threw him out. Then Ray saw the parallel and want home to take care of sick Debra because he didn't wanna get kicked out. 

Not to say Debra is a saint. She has a bad temper, and can be a huge child in many cases. Especially when she makes a scene in front of others, rather than waiting an appropriate time to discuss something. Or goading Ray into arguments due to her overreacting. Like making Ray think she got a boob job, then snapping at him, and accusing him of never finding her attractive just because he likes bigger breasts. She made a federal case of that.

So Debra is NOT perfect. But given how bad Ray is, I can't call her a harpy either. She's in-between. Sadly, the family got her. Now she's a Barone. She always had a bit of an attitude, but that family made it worse. lol A combination of dealing with Ray's selfishness, plus Marie's condescension.

Then you have Frank. He says outright that all the trouble and tension comes from Marie, because she's still salty that Ray married Debra. And I definitely agree with that. When they moved to the retirement community for a bit, everyone was in higher spirits. lol

[CherryAmes]

Robert being poor lasted one whole episode.  He is a police officer with the NYPD - a lieutenant by the end of the series, he's got a good income.   Not to mention even if he was struggling financially if Ray and Debra were to both die and Robert got custody he'd likely have money from their life insurance to help support the kids - and two sets of grandparents more than able to help.  On top of that he'd have their house - either to live in with the kids or to sell and live somewhere else.  Most importantly he loved the kids and they adored him.

Edited December 2, 2017 by CherryAmes

[Snow Apple]

Robert only had money issues when the plot calls for it. He had no problem lending Ray money when Ray screwed up the checkbook. He had enough money to rent a swinging singles pad. I can see him and Amy paying cash for his parent's $26K(?) house. It's like he's one of those people who's always complaining they're broke but in reality, they just don't want to touch their nest egg just in case something big happens down the line. Robert and Joanna had a house but she most likely took any profits in the divorce. Robert probably didn't want to get burned like that again. 

I wouldn't leave my kids to him either, but it's not because of financial reasons. Heck, you can save thousands even with a minimum wage job if you live rent-free with your parents (I did).

[Guest]

I’m going to reply to the Robert stuff in the All Episodes thread.

[WildStyle]

Well the thread is getting OT. Going back to the original topic.

My thoughts with the Super Bowl. Many hated Debra there. I think she overreacted when the couple came, but Ray was a complete boob.

He went on the trip with Gianni, which Debra had no issue with. But when Ray got there, he was ashamed because the other men thought to bring their wives. So he invited Debra out of shame. That's usually when Ray did something for others -because it made him look better. When Ray called and flew Debra out there, she was excited because she thought it'd be a fun getaway for them. Ray didn't tell her beforehand that he's bringing her out because he saw other wives there & figured she could do activities while he went off with the other husbands. When you invite someone somewhere, they think it's because you want them there as a companion. Not bring them out and send them off someplace while you do something else.  He didn't make the terms clear. Debra got on a plane & flew all the way down there, only to get the same disinterest she does at home.  The one thing I fault Debra for is her childish reaction while the other couple was there -making things awkward for everyone else. But I don't think she was wrong to be shocked & angry when she finds out that Ray invited her, with no intention of spending non-sexual time together.

Edited December 2, 2017 by WildStyle

[Snow Apple]

2 hours ago, WildStyle said:

Well the thread is getting OT. Going back to the original topic.

 

Oops! I completely forgot I even clicked on the Debra thread.

Back to Debra. In the many flashback episodes, she was nice and normal which highlights the difference in a major way. The writers know what they were doing. So yes, Debra is a harpy but only because she turned that way bit by bit after being dealing with the Barone's for so long. Even sweet little Amy is no longer so sweet towards the end of the series.