Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[msani19]

Yeah, as usual, finances on tv shows make no sense and change to suit the situation. 

Robert and Amy would have been doing pretty well. As a married couple, I'm guessing they were doing better income-wise than Ray. I mean, Ray worked for a smallish newspaper as a columnist. Even being moderately successful, his financial situation made less sense than Robert's. Unless he was a big-time columnist at a major paper, he wasn't making enough to support the lifestyle that the show depicted, IMO. 

In terms of where Marie could have stashed away that money, I thought (and maybe I heard her say this on the show or I imagined it) but if she put a little bit aside every week from the "allowance" (ugh!) Frank gave her, then she would have been able to accumulate a decent amount of money. Obviously, she couldn't get a bank account without his permission until after 1972 (again, ugh!) so she would have been putting that money into cans hidden around the house. Being the nerd that I am, I estimated that Marie could have stashed about $50 per week for 30 years, which is $78,000. Granted it could have been $20 bucks but she'd still have a decent amount put away. Frank wouldn't notice her taking a little bit out of the grocery money. He didn't do any of the shopping, that was her job (ugh!)

Robert had money when they needed him to have money, and then didn't have money when they needed him to not have money. If they said he had a gambling problem or something like that, I might believe that's why sometimes had no money.

[Holden308]

Yeah but the allowance Frank gave her would have been for things like the food shopping, it wouldn't have been just for her personal use. So how she put away (even when teaching piano at home on the side) enough to have $46,000 saved up and stashed away is a mystery. And its not like Frank would have been earning top dollar during that time as a bookkeeper or any of the other jobs he had. Plus paying a mortgage, the bills and raising 2 boys......

I'd have believed it if she had something like $10,000 save up, but 46 grand is way too much of a stretch.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Holden308

[ByTor]

Plus, Marie had enough stealth money to pay for the whole family to go to Italy.  Granted they stayed with family, but airfare for all those people couldn't have been cheap.

[ShadowSixx]

Marie did say that she managed the money. In that episode where Ray gave his friends $1000 to start a kart business, Marie told Debra that she donates some money to kids for reading books and distracts Frank from the finances by feeding him. At the end of the episode Frank got the mail about the donation and Marie came out with a big sub sandwich and took the mail from him.

Frank working in finances I'm sure he would be good with finances because Frank is frugal. He didn't like any of the electronic gifts Ray got him because it would raise the electric bill. Frank didn't want to donate money to charity, didn't want to give Robert $1000 when Robert was having financial trouble and didn't want Marie to buy back the $1000 that Ray & Debra gave to Robert. Only time I seen Frank spend money is when he gave Marie jewelry on Christmas. 

Ray's financial status is more believable than Al Bundy on Married w/children. A shoe salesman is able to live in a two story house and keep the bills paid for when his wife and kids keep stealing his money. 

[CherryAmes]

The writers obviously had no real idea what kind of salary a bookkeeper would have been making,  Which is consistent with the salaries they seem to believe Ray and Robert are pulling in.  Ray way too much and Robert way too little.

[Holden308]

Robert and Amy should have been much better off financially than Ray and Debra. No kids, mostly living rent free with Frank and Marie and both worked, yet somehow Ray and Debra raising 3 kids, paying a mortgage and other associated household bills had more money just on Ray's pay.

[ShadowSixx]

It comes into question how good of a writer is Ray? At one point the paper is sending him to cover the Super Bowl and he got a doctorate of letters. The next he's been turned down for a promotion twice, Sports Illustrated rejected him and his book was turned down.

[Holden308]

On 1/23/2018 at 8:00 AM, ShadowSixx said:

It comes into question how good of a writer is Ray? At one point the paper is sending him to cover the Super Bowl and he got a doctorate of letters. The next he's been turned down for a promotion twice, Sports Illustrated rejected him and his book was turned down.

Well, he was good enough to get on television at one point.....though as usual his family (including Debra) picked his performance apart so much that it stuffed him up even worse the second time around.

[WildStyle]

2 hours ago, Holden308 said:

Well, he was good enough to get on television at one point.....though as usual his family (including Debra) picked his performance apart so much that it stuffed him up even worse the second time around.

But even that didn't seem like too big a moment. When Kevin mentioned him, he says Roy asked for a newspaper guy or a Chinese person. lol 

But on the flip, he gets enough recognition that Jerry Musso hated how successful he was for being dumb -mentioning that you apparently don't have to be smart to have a career in the business. 

It goes back & forth. Sometimes he's a decent writer -nothing special. The next he's world famous almost. lol

Edited January 23, 2018 by WildStyle

[Holden308]

I honestly don't have a clue as to how much sports writers get paid, be they just columnists in a local paper or syndicated. But I find it hard to believe that in New York, Long Island no less, that they are able to own their own home, have 2 cars, raise 3 kids and pay all the bills associated with those things, and be able to do it all very comfortably on just Ray's salary while Debra is a no money earning stay at home mom. While at the same time Robert and Amy seem to struggle while living rent free with Frank and Marie, yet Robert it a long serving NY cop (Captain was he, or Lieutenant?) and Amy works, plus they have no kids.

Sense is not made. As some have said, the financial situation often depended on the story of the episode. One time Robert needed a loan from his brother just to pay his bills (which turned into a bit of a lie when he decided to go to Vegas), yet later when the only thing in his situation that had changed was that he had a girlfriend (Amy....which itself would bring increased financial cost to his lifestyle, especially the amount of times they drove to her parents house in PA) he was able to put $1000 into his friends go-kart business without a second thought to "can I afford this??".

BTW, just a curiosity question. Whatever happened to Shamsky? He was central to a few episodes with Robert, but then suddenly disappeared and the last I remember him even being mentioned was when Robert and Ray went to the Baseball HoF to see the 1969 Mets and Robert took the dog collar to see if he could get Art Shamsky to sign it, but if course it was thwarted by Ray trying to act like a bigwig reporter and getting shut down by the players for his not so great articles about unqualified ex-players becoming TV or radio commentators simply because of who they were (Ha! Lets face it, all over the world, even where I am from in Australia, there are many ex-sports people who get gigs as tv and radio commentators despite the fact that they can barely string a coherent sentence together. And some keep their jobs for years).

Edited January 24, 2018 by Holden308

[qtpye]

On 1/20/2018 at 6:04 PM, BlossomCulp said:

I'm sure this depends, of course, on where you live but I know somewhere on one of these pages we discussed Robert's income as a NYPD police officer and given his rank and length of service he would have been making a very nice income.  I can accept that buying or even renting close to NYC would be expensive and even a good salary wouldn't go as far but I think the writers in trying to make Ray the successful brother went a little too far in trying to make Robert the poor relation.  If nothing else he and Amy were DINKS (double income no kids) unlike Ray and Deb who were a one income family with 3 kids.

 

On 1/20/2018 at 8:30 PM, msani19 said:

Yeah, as usual, finances on tv shows make no sense and change to suit the situation. 

Robert and Amy would have been doing pretty well. As a married couple, I'm guessing they were doing better income-wise than Ray. I mean, Ray worked for a smallish newspaper as a columnist. Even being moderately successful, his financial situation made less sense than Robert's. Unless he was a big-time columnist at a major paper, he wasn't making enough to support the lifestyle that the show depicted, IMO. 

In terms of where Marie could have stashed away that money, I thought (and maybe I heard her say this on the show or I imagined it) but if she put a little bit aside every week from the "allowance" (ugh!) Frank gave her, then she would have been able to accumulate a decent amount of money. Obviously, she couldn't get a bank account without his permission until after 1972 (again, ugh!) so she would have been putting that money into cans hidden around the house. Being the nerd that I am, I estimated that Marie could have stashed about $50 per week for 30 years, which is $78,000. Granted it could have been $20 bucks but she'd still have a decent amount put away. Frank wouldn't notice her taking a little bit out of the grocery money. He didn't do any of the shopping, that was her job (ugh!)

Robert had money when they needed him to have money, and then didn't have money when they needed him to not have money. If they said he had a gambling problem or something like that, I might believe that's why sometimes had no money.

 

7 hours ago, Holden308 said:

I honestly don't have a clue as to how much sports writers get paid, be they just columnists in a local paper or syndicated. But I find it hard to believe that in New York, Long Island no less, that they are able to own their own home, have 2 cars, raise 3 kids and pay all the bills associated with those things, and be able to do it all very comfortably on just Ray's salary while Debra is a no money earning stay at home mom. While at the same time Robert and Amy seem to struggle while living rent free with Frank and Marie, yet Robert it a long serving NY cop (Captain was he, or Lieutenant?) and Amy works, plus they have no kids.

Sense is not made. As some have said, the financial situation often depended on the story of the episode. One time Robert needed a loan from his brother just to pay his bills (which turned into a bit of a lie when he decided to go to Vegas), yet later when the only thing in his situation that had changed was that he had a girlfriend (Amy....which itself would bring increased financial cost to his lifestyle, especially the amount of times they drove to her parents house in PA) he was able to put $1000 into his friends go-kart business without a second thought to "can I afford this??".

BTW, just a curiosity question. Whatever happened to Shamsky? He was central to a few episodes with Robert, but then suddenly disappeared and the last I remember him even being mentioned was when Robert and Ray went to the Baseball HoF to see the 1969 Mets and Robert took the dog collar to see if he could get Art Shamsky to sign it, but if course it was thwarted by Ray trying to act like a bigwig reporter and getting shut down by the players for his not so great articles about unqualified ex-players becoming TV or radio commentators simply because of who they were (Ha! Lets face it, all over the world, even where I am from in Australia, there are many ex-sports people who get gigs as tv and radio commentators despite the fact that they can barely string a coherent sentence together. And some keep their jobs for years).

I mentioned before some of my friends were actually pretty envious of Debra being so financially secure.  I sort of had to remind them that it was tv, so not real.  I bet if we looked up salaries, Ray's job would actually be making a lot less then Robert's position.  Ray and Debra really should have been a lot more worried about money, particularly when you consider that this was the era were newspapers were dying away.

[BlossomCulp]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I mentioned before some of my friends were actually pretty envious of Debra being so financially secure.  I sort of had to remind them that it was tv, so not real.

The big tip off that it's not real is that Debra and Ray are still across the street 9 years later! In the first season they both say they will be moving as soon as they can afford to but let's face it if they'd moved we'd have had no show!

[Holden308]

Ray never wanted to buy a house so close to his parents, let alone right across the street. He protested and even suggested California as an alternate since it was beyond local driving distance. Yet despite his continued annoyance at things, many times throughout the series he was shown to love living across the street from his parents, mostly because he got the continued mothering from Marie that he not so secretly craved.

Debra was the one who wanted to live there, though by halfway through the first season she had realised the error of her ways, but somehow it was never her fault. The strange thing is that other than "The Letter" or when she and Marie didn't talk for a few episodes, she never did squat about it. A lot of times she was shown as the Alfa female of their home, she was the boss, yet she rarely had the balls to stand up to Marie and her constant interfering or remarks about her cooking, house keeping or kid raising skills.....or even her duty as a wife. More often than not it was somehow turned around on Ray like it was his fault that she had to put up with them always being over and it was his job (not hers) to do something about it. Often after a disagreement (usually with Marie storming out of their house), Debra would turn to Ray and abuse him (verbally and sometimes physically) because he didn't take her side or that he didn't stand up to his parents.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Holden308

[CherryAmes]

20 minutes ago, Holden308 said:

More often than not it was somehow turned around on Ray like it was his fault that she had to put up with them always being over and it was his job (not hers) to do something about it.

I think a lot of the time it was Ray's job to be the one to draw the line in the sand with his parents.  I didn't fight battles with my in-laws.  When we had problems it was my husband's responsibility to discuss things with his parents, not mine.  Same where my parents are concerned.  I do not want him being the bad guy - if there is an issue that needs to be dealt with, I do the dealing.  Anyway the problem for Debra was not just that Ray was rarely prepared to stand up for her or to stand up to his parents it was that he consistently chose his parents - well his mother - over her.  Debra could hardly do anything if Ray wasn't going to stand by her when she did.

[WildStyle]

39 minutes ago, Holden308 said:

Ray never wanted to buy a house so close to his parents, let alone right across the street. He protested and even suggested California as an alternate since it was beyond local driving distance. Yet despite his continued annoyance at things, many times throughout the series he was shown to love living across the street from his parents, mostly because he got the continued mothering from Marie that he not so secretly craved.

Debra was the one who wanted to live there, though by halfway through the first season she had realised the error of her ways, but somehow it was never her fault. The strange thing is that other than "The Letter" or when she and Marie didn't talk for a few episodes, she never did squat about it. A lot of times she was shown as the Alfa female of their home, she was the boss, yet she rarely had the balls to stand up to Marie and her constant interfering or remarks about her cooking, house keeping or kid raising skills.....or even her duty as a wife. More often than not it was somehow turned around on Ray like it was his fault that she had to put up with them always being over and it was his job (not hers) to do something about it. Often after a disagreement (usually with Marie storming out of their house), Debra would turn to Ray and abuse him (verbally and sometimes physically) because he didn't take her side or that he didn't stand up to his parents.

Debra has stood up to Marie. But she can never win because Ray & Robert always side with Marie, and Frank stays out of it. It's a case of Marie being a dictator. And no matter how strong you are, you can go against a dictator with no back-up, which Debra never got from Ray or Robert. Occasionally Frank would help her, but it was rare. 

Examples

1. When she invited her parents for the Christmas picture. Marie had a hissy fit about Debra's parents being in it, and Debra didn't care. 

2. Or when Marie criticizes her being a bad mother, Debra is about to say something, then Ray jumps in and changes the subject.

3. When Marie says the twins look like hobos, Debra tells her to stop being passive and be direct with her. Marie smirks and says it's hard to be direct when Debra can't take helpful suggestions. The Debra says she'll handle the kids tomorrow without Marie, and asks how that is for direct. Marie just shrugs and says at least she's finally doing something before leaving.

4. The Mother's Day episode

5. The Be Nice episode

6. Or the DUI episode at Amy's party, when Debra bluntly tells Marie that she doesn't need her for Anything. Marie pours her food out and leaves. Then Debra still loses at the end because Marie has to drive her around, and she makes Debra admit to needing her before doing so.

Debra has opposed Marie on a few occasions. But it's always a lost battle for her. And sometimes, Debra just lets stuff roll off her back because she can never win. That's why she wanted Amy & Peggy around so bad. She'd get back-up from them and shut Marie down more. Whereas the men in the family are scared of Marie.

 

I can also agree with CherryAmes. When it comes to family, it's best to handle your own blood so no boundaries get crossed. Like the pilot. Debra wanted time without her in-laws on her birthday and wanted Ray to talk to them. Why Ray? because it's his family and it'd be more understanding & appropriate coming from him. If Debra had gone over there and told them to stay at home, she'd be villainized and possible seen as tying to separated Ray from his family. Whereas if he talked to them, it would look more like something he & Debra would've mutually agreed on. Rather than Debra being behind his back and splitting them up.

Edited January 24, 2018 by WildStyle

[CherryAmes]

3 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

4. The Mother's Day episode

This is a great example of Debra finally standing up to Marie but getting zero support from Ray.  He wants her to be the one to apologize and doesn't even begin to try and see things from Debra's point of view.  Even if he genuinely thought Marie was in the right with regard to the initial situation that caused everything to explode even Ray could not possibly have failed to see that it was Marie who threw fuel on the fire and was completely unbearable afterwards.  But nooooo.  As far as Ray was concerned they were both at fault.  Even a later episode has him making some comment about how childish Debra had been not to speak to Marie (something like that anyway) that made it obvious he blamed her never his mother.

[Holden308]

The Christmas picture was actually a gift from Ray to Marie. It was for Marie's family - i.e Marie, Frank, Robert, Ray, Debra and the kids, not Ray's in-laws because they weren't her family. Debra wasn't standing up to Marie, she did it to get back at Ray over the fact that he didn't want to drive to Connecticut to see her parents on Christmas Eve after Marie objected and Ray agreed.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Holden308

[WildStyle]

It was payback for BOTH Ray and Marie.

Debra wanted something for Christmas, and because it wasn't convenient for Marie, she accuses Debra of ruining the holiday, and Ray sides with her. So Debra did what she wanted, and something that would make her happy, regardless of how Ray or Marie felt since they clearly didn't care how she felt.  So once she got shut down by both of them again, she retaliated by doing her own thing. So that picture became a gift she was giving herself too. I don't blame her there. lol

For once, Marie was not getting her way. And Ray got to be in Debra's shoes -dealing with a family that's never satisfied and having a spouse who doesn't care and won't help you. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by WildStyle

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

It was payback for BOTH Ray and Marie.

Debra wanted something for Christmas, and because it wasn't convenient for Marie, she accuses Debra of ruining Christmas, and Ray sides with her. So Debra did what she wanted, and something that would make her happy, regardless of how Ray or Marie felt since they clearly didn't care how she felt.  So once she got shut down by both of them again, she retaliated by doing her own thing. So that picture became a gift she was giving herself too. I don't blame her there. lol

If their routine as they said (and is supported by previous seasons patterns) was to alternate what they did for Christmas, why should Debra get to unilaterally change it without considering Ray's feelings? It was something they should have agreed on as a couple together before telling the parents about it.  I think she was awful to ruin Marie's gift over it. 

 

1 hour ago, Holden308 said:

Ray never wanted to buy a house so close to his parents, let alone right across the street. He protested and even suggested California as an alternate since it was beyond local driving distance. Yet despite his continued annoyance at things, many times throughout the series he was shown to love living across the street from his parents, mostly because he got the continued mothering from Marie that he not so secretly craved.

The sauce zone always makes me laugh.

[WildStyle]

7 minutes ago, deaja said:

If their routine as they said (and is supported by previous seasons patterns) was to alternate what they did for Christmas, why should Debra get to unilaterally change it without considering Ray's feelings? It was something they should have agreed on as a couple together before telling the parents about it.  I think she was awful to ruin Marie's gift over it. 

She didn't change it. Something happened off screen. I forget what it was. But  it was mentioned that they weren't doing the rotation anymore. So Debra suggested a compromise. They could go see her parents Xmas eve, and be back with Frank & Marie at 10:00 am. She brought it up with Ray and when Marie came over, she talked to Marie about it as well. Frank said it was fine and that he'd be in a better mood at 10:00. But no. For Marie, seeing the kids when she wanted to was more important. So she pouts, and puts on a crying face to tell Debra she's killing Christmas. Debra asks for Ray to support her,just like she agreed to do the picture. And Ray sides with mommy. So that picture became Debra's consolation prize that she gave herself.  

So I love watching Ray & Marie suffer in that episode. I have no sympathy for either of them. I thought Marie, Ray, and Robert were the bad ones in that episode. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by WildStyle

[Holden308]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

If their routine as they said (and is supported by previous seasons patterns) was to alternate what they did for Christmas, why should Debra get to unilaterally change it without considering Ray's feelings? It was something they should have agreed on as a couple together before telling the parents about it.  I think she was awful to ruin Marie's gift over it. 

This was shown on a couple of occasions at least. There was also the time when Debra decided that she wanted to do Thanksgiving at her house instead of Marie's. Now while I don't actually disagree with her wanting that, she always wanted to change things for her reasons and more often than not usually expected Ray to be in complete agreement, and if he didn't then she had a touch of Robertitis and get petty over it.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

 Something happened off screen, and it was mentioned that for some reason they weren't doing the alternating anymore.

What are you basing this on?

From the episode script,

Quote

 

Debra: Oh, I'm really gonna miss having Christmas with them.

Robert: Oh yeah, the alternating years, huh?

Debra: Yeah.

Robert: That's a treaty that you and Ray worked out, right? 

Then it isn't mentioned again until Marie comes in and Debra says "You know, Marie, while we're talking about Christmas, I had this idea. Now I know this year is your turn, but I was thinking of starting a new tradition. What if we spend Christmas Eve at my parents, and Christmas Day at your house? That way nobody misses Christmas together."

 

 

So in previous years, they had alternated.  Debra says she'll miss her parents this year and that it is Marie's turn.  

[WildStyle]

7 minutes ago, deaja said:

What are you basing this on?

From the episode script,

Debra: Oh, I'm really gonna miss having Christmas with them.

Robert: Oh yeah, the alternating years, huh?

Debra: Yeah.

Robert: That's a treaty that you and Ray worked out, right? 

Then it isn't mentioned again until Marie comes in and Debra says "You know, Marie, while we're talking about Christmas, I had this idea. Now I know this year is your turn, but I was thinking of starting a new tradition. What if we spend Christmas Eve at my parents, and Christmas Day at your house? That way nobody misses Christmas together."

So in previous years, they had alternated.  Debra says she'll miss her parents this year and that it is Marie's turn.  

It's been a min since I watched the episode. I remember Robert mentioning the alternation as something that was stopping.

Looking at the script, you are right. It appears the rotation may still be happening. But looking at what Debra says, she was not taking Marie's year away. They'd still be spending Xmas with her, after spending Xmas eve with her parents. So I don't get that as being a great offense. Plus, I think this happened a month or so before Christmas, so Marie could get the gift on time. This wasn't putting anyone on the spot with a last min deal. So her suggestion didn't seem unreasonable, and Marie came off very childish in her response & outlook.  Then you have to factor in since they live right next door, Marie sees the kids everyday -something Warren & Lois don't. All the more reason why Xmas could be spent with family that's hardly ever seen.

Now an episode I disagree with Debra on, and thought she was a brat in was Thanksgiving in season 1. That was Marie's year that Debra took away completely and she waited until the last min when Thanksgiving was a week away to spring it on Marie, when the latter probably already had plans and started preparing. So on the flip, THAT"S the episode I sided with Marie on, and didn't fault her for making her own Turkey when Debra decided to cook fish.

Edited January 24, 2018 by WildStyle

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

But looking at what Debra says, she was not taking Marie's year away.

I can see this, but at the same time, I think Marie was saying the highlight of the day is watching the kids come down and see what Santa brought.  That's something that is so limited in the number of years before the kids realize there's no Santa, so I could understand Marie's disappointment.  But again, if Ray and Debra had decided together to change the plan, I would think Marie just needed to suck it up. But Debra didn't seem to consider that Ray might not want to do her plan. When you contrast that with the Thanksgiving episode, she had discussed it with Ray before approaching Marie with it.  (And even then, she didn't really consider how Ray would want to spend the holiday - insisting everything be from scratch 100% so that meant he had to help, her parents controlling the tv, etc. There was definitely enough obnoxiousness from all involved that holiday. I actually think Raymond was the best behaved adult!)

[Holden308]

Debra really didn't take rejection very well which indicates that more often than not she got what she wanted. When she suggested changing the Christmas schedule to Marie, I believe she did so without asking Ray about it first and just expected him to go along with her despite what they had previously agreed to with alternate years. And when neither Ray nor Marie wanted to change it, that's when she got petty and decided to invade Marie's picture gift and demand that her parents be included, which led to Robert whining that Amy wasn't in the picture and somehow everything became Ray's fault when in fact I believe the fault lay squarely on Debra's shoulders.

SHE didn't get what SHE wanted so she deliberately set out to ruin Ray's Christmas gift to his mother.

Ray was put in a no win situation. Either his wife would be pissed at him, or his mother would be and it ended up being both through no fault of his own. Damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Holden308

[WildStyle]

Robert was whining about Amy not being in the picture before Debra's parents even showed up. Marie says when Amy becomes a Barone, she'll be in a picture. Then afterwards, Debra's parents showed up, and Marie had a fit. Then Robert went to Ray with an attitude to complain. 

[CherryAmes]

2 hours ago, Holden308 said:

The Christmas picture was actually a gift from Ray to Marie.

Then Ray should have organized it.  Instead he lets Debra down over seeing her parents at Christmas - when they see his parents every single day -  and then expects her to do the work while he gets the credit.  Too bad, Ray but why should Debra have been making your life easier now?

[Guest]

It was likely a gift from Ray and his family.  If she didn't want to arrange it, she should have said so (even though she seemed to do a lot of the household management that things like family photos would typically fall under); but she didn't just not make his life easier.  She purposely made his life harder to be petty. 

[bigskygirl]

 If I was Debra, I would have arrange for the Barone family to have one Christmas picture, and a second picture taken with just her parents. Of course, Marie and Ray would have thrown a hissy fit if she do it that way no matter what. I see nothing wrong with Debra wanted to spend time with her parents on Christmas morning. Ray could have stay home with his parents and Robert, and Debra and the kids could have stayed with her parents, but Marie had to have it her way once again. Ray being a pathetic momma's boy had to take Marie's side.

[CherryAmes]

There was no need for the drah-ma at the photographer's, there were ways to resolve the situation that would have worked but then we wouldn't have had an episode.  I keep reminding myself of this :) but there are some episodes that get me wanting to shout at the screen "hey guys did you ever consider..." and this is definitely one of them!

What bothered me about Ray not siding with Debra about seeing her parents was that it had nothing to do with their arrangement and even really nothing to do with pleasing Marie (although that was part of it) it was sheer laziness on Ray's part.  He didn't want to make the drive to Connecticut.  Which is a recurring theme with Ray - no distance is to great if it's for golfing, if it's for family, forget about it!

[Guest]

I know the show often portrayed Ray as lazy, but we also know he traveled for work a lot. Maybe he just wanted to enjoy the holiday without driving in a car, spending a night away from home, and packing up the kids. I don’t see why Debra wanting to change their plans automatically should trump him not wanting to change their plans. Her parents could have easily driven down to see them.

[CherryAmes]

9 minutes ago, deaja said:

Her parents could have easily driven down to see them.

That's one of the things I always want to shout at the TV!  That's certainly what does end up happening later in the series, if they go to visit Debra's parents over the holidays I don't remember it really ever being mentioned again.  And aside from the logistics of the show this makes sense.  Most families I know with kids pretty much stop the travelling once the kids reach a certain age.  If grandma and grandpa are a realistic drive away they come for Christmas not the other way around.

[Guest]

@CherryAmes that whole episode truly is a logical fallacy. Between the photographer not doing multiple poses and configurations to the driving situation, it doesn’t make any sense.

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

There was no need for the drah-ma at the photographer's, there were ways to resolve the situation that would have worked but then we wouldn't have had an episode.  I keep reminding myself of this :) but there are some episodes that get me wanting to shout at the screen "hey guys did you ever consider..." and this is definitely one of them!

This bugs me about sitcoms in general.  If they need to do something stupid or illogical in order to have an episode, I'd rather they didn't do the episode at all.

[bigskygirl]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I know the show often portrayed Ray as lazy, but we also know he traveled for work a lot. Maybe he just wanted to enjoy the holiday without driving in a car, spending a night away from home, and packing up the kids. I don’t see why Debra wanting to change their plans automatically should trump him not wanting to change their plans. Her parents could have easily driven down to see them.

I see your point of view, but Debra would be the ones packing up the kids while Ray was pouting about having to drive back home. He and Debra could take turns driving. I do remember the one Christmas episode where Ray and Debra visited her parents. It was the one where Ray had the family names put on the toaster, and he got bent out of shape because his parents returned it for a coffee maker.

Edited January 25, 2018 by bigskygirl

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, WildStyle said:

When Ray was having trouble in The Checkbook, Robert had $3,000 to give him.  So he's broke when the plot calls for it. 

 

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 3:30 PM, ShadowSixx said:

It comes into question how good of a writer is Ray? At one point the paper is sending him to cover the Super Bowl and he got a doctorate of letters. The next he's been turned down for a promotion twice, Sports Illustrated rejected him and his book was turned down.

 

By definition a sitcom has to come up with situations for comedy to ensue.  The situations may be grounded in reality, but they aren't necessarily consistent from season to season or even episode to episode.  Especially when a show runs as long as ELR did.

 

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, deaja said:

The sauce zone always makes me laugh.

I love that , too!

[Pippin]

One way Ray may have been able to make oodles of money is if he was a syndicated columnist, like Dave Barry (remember him?) His columns seemed to be the folksy funny types so they might have nation-wide or even international appeal.

Debra could be shrewish but by God, if I were Debra and had to endure Marie every day, I wouldn't be shrewish -- I'd be in Pentangueshene (the Canadian institution for the criminally insane) -- having been declared a Dangerous Offender and to be Held at Her Majesty's Pleasure until no longer a Danger to Others.  That would be because I would have sliced Marie into 1000 pieces, in retaliation for the death by 1000 cuts she was slowly inflicting on me.

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 1/24/2018 at 7:49 PM, bigskygirl said:

I see your point of view, but Debra would be the ones packing up the kids while Ray was pouting about having to drive back home. He and Debra could take turns driving. I do remember the one Christmas episode where Ray and Debra visited her parents. It was the one where Ray had the family names put on the toaster, and he got bent out of shape because his parents returned it for a coffee maker.

The toaster?  I am not sure why they returned it.  In Debra's words, it was a bad ass toaster.

 

On 1/28/2018 at 11:31 AM, Inquisitionist said:

 

 

By definition a sitcom has to come up with situations for comedy to ensue.  The situations may be grounded in reality, but they aren't necessarily consistent from season to season or even episode to episode.  Especially when a show runs as long as ELR did.

 

I love that , too!

Oh God the sauce zone.  "Wrong!!!!  TOO CLOSE!"  "WRONG!!!  OVERNIGHT VISITS!"

[CherryAmes]

8 hours ago, Pippin said:

Debra could be shrewish but by God, if I were Debra and had to endure Marie every day, I wouldn't be shrewish -- I'd be in Pentangueshene (the Canadian institution for the criminally insane) -- having been declared a Dangerous Offender and to be Held at Her Majesty's Pleasure until no longer a Danger to Others.  That would be because I would have sliced Marie into 1000 pieces, in retaliation for the death by 1000 cuts she was slowly inflicting on me.

Absolutely agreed!  Debra did become "meaner" as Ray would say, as the series progressed but it would have been totally unwatchable for me if she hadn't changed and gotten harder.  Marie went from meddlesome but essentially well meaning to downright evil - if Debra hadn't changed it would have just been sadistic.

[Mrs. Hanson]

11 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Absolutely agreed!  Debra did become "meaner" as Ray would say, as the series progressed but it would have been totally unwatchable for me if she hadn't changed and gotten harder.  Marie went from meddlesome but essentially well meaning to downright evil - if Debra hadn't changed it would have just been sadistic.

No kidding - Marie went from meddlesome (folding her laundry) to mean and cruel - changing a recipe so Debra will get it wrong?  I mean c'mon.....I know it is show but that was off the charts!

Per the Christmas episodes and who goes where for which holiday:  I tell people who are about to have a baby - you better get this worked out now cause once that baby gets here.....every in law wants those grandkids from mid afternoon on Dec 24 until 9pm December 25.  No lie!

[BlossomCulp]

15 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Absolutely agreed!  Debra did become "meaner" as Ray would say, as the series progressed but it would have been totally unwatchable for me if she hadn't changed and gotten harder.  Marie went from meddlesome but essentially well meaning to downright evil - if Debra hadn't changed it would have just been sadistic.

For that matter Ray went from clueless but good hearted to being a lying horndog.  Had Debra not developed an edge they would have been flirting with Debra enduring, at best, emotional abuse.  They needed to toughen her up just to keep them all on more or less the same level.  Although, admittedly they may have gone a tad too far with Marie!

[ByTor]

On 2/22/2018 at 9:19 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

Oh God the sauce zone.  "Wrong!!!!  TOO CLOSE!"  "WRONG!!!  OVERNIGHT VISITS!"

I'll probably end up feeling stupid for asking this, but what is the sauce zone?  I don't remember it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ByTor said:

I'll probably end up feeling stupid for asking this, but what is the sauce zone?  I don't remember it.

In the episode about how they ended up living across the street from Frank and Marie, Ray had drawn up a map. He wanted them to be close enough for no overnight visits and too far to bring over sauce (knowing that being in the “sauce zone” would lead to his parents being over all the time. Needless to say, he did not get his way. :)

[Inquisitionist]

The Sauce Zone.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

In the episode about how they ended up living across the street from Frank and Marie, Ray had drawn up a map. He wanted them to be close enough for no overnight visits and too far to bring over sauce (knowing that being in the “sauce zone” would lead to his parents being over all the time. Needless to say, he did not get his way. :)

Was this season 1?  I really don't remember this, and season 1 is one I don't rewatch much.

ETA: Thanks @Inquisitionist!  I do see that this was season 1, now I know why I never saw it.

Edited February 26, 2018 by ByTor

[Inquisitionist]

It was the finale of S1, which set the stage for ending most seasons with a flashback episode.  Those are among my favorites!

[Mrs. Hanson]

I believe one of the motivating reasons for these flashbacks was Patty Heaton was pregnant and they needed some flashbacks to write the pregnancy in.  

My mom and I used to say that to each other:  "You think this is good?  WRONG!!!!"  

[Holden308]

On 2/23/2018 at 12:49 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

The toaster?  I am not sure why they returned it.  In Debra's words, it was a bad ass toaster.

They returned it (without even opening it) because they said that they already had a toaster but didn't have a coffee machine.

And when it came to Debra having to deal with Marie every day, I still maintain that she has no one to blame but herself. It was all explained in The Sauce Zone that Ray didn't want to move close enough to his parents that meant they would be there all the time, but not that far away that they would have to stay overnight. But Debra insisted because of various things like being able to use them for help if needed (e.g. ready made baby sitters).

And don't even get me started about locking front and back doors so that they couldn't just walk in all the time.

And in the end, Debra still wouldn't take the blame. She blamed Ray for letting her have her way.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Holden308

[Holden308]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:44 AM, Mrs. Hanson said:

No kidding - Marie went from meddlesome (folding her laundry) to mean and cruel - changing a recipe so Debra will get it wrong?  I mean c'mon.....I know it is show but that was off the charts!

The really sad thing is that there are some mother-in-law's out there who are just like Marie was - overbearing, interfering, manipulative, and no woman is ever good enough for her baby boy no matter what she does. Some will go as far (and in some cases further) as Marie did when changing the recipe just to make themselves look better than the woman their son married.

Now don't get me wrong here, Marie didn't set out to ruin their marriage because I believe she truly loved Debra as a daughter-in-law. But she still wanted to keep her position as #1 in the family and often went to great lengths to do that.

[ByTor]

I'm sure this is an unpopular ELR opinion, but I disagree with Lois, I don't find an engraved toaster to be particularly retro chic :)