Leo McGarry: Thanks, Boss!

[BW Manilowe]

Remembering John Spencer today, on the 10th anniversary of his passing (& again Sunday, on the 68th anniversary of his birth).

Edited December 16, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[morgankobi]

I first watched this show well after it had aired, but already knew what happened to John Spencer in real life. When I first saw that scene in the woods, I was gutted. It was intense enough just as a scene about Leo, but that added layer was beyond crushing.

[Guest]

I first watched this show well after it had aired, but already knew what happened to John Spencer in real life. When I first saw that scene in the woods, I was gutted. It was intense enough just as a scene about Leo, but that added layer was beyond crushing.

 

Agreed.  Similar happened to me (I knew by the time I got to that season that he would die in real life).  Knowing that that was written before they knew what would happen in real life is chilling to me. :(  

[BizBuzz]

I have loved John Spencer since the days of LA Law.

 

I can remember the exact moment when I heard that JS died ... I was reading TWW thread on TWOP and I thought it a joke, that he died on the show.  When i saw that it was for real, I actually mourned.  I was watching live by that time, and I was just devastated.

 

I hate to admit this ... I was a Leo/Annabeth shipper for a short while ... and when it was Annabeth that found him, I actually cried, sloppy tears.

[BW Manilowe]

I have loved John Spencer since the days of LA Law.

I can remember the exact moment when I heard that JS died ... I was reading TWW thread on TWOP and I thought it a joke, that he died on the show. When i saw that it was for real, I actually mourned. I was watching live by that time, and I was just devastated.

I hate to admit this ... I was a Leo/Annabeth shipper for a short while ... and when it was Annabeth that found him, I actually cried, sloppy tears.

Like you, I also happened to be reading the TWoP TWW forum when the news broke that JS had died & I started seeing posts discussing it, in whatever thread I was reading, though I never really "got" it until I got out of the posts pages & back to the page with the thread titles & saw 1 called "RIP John Spencer" (I think). That, & reading the posts in that thread/posting my own to it, is what made it sink in; though I also admit to a sense of lingering disbelief until I started hearing/reading the news via other, non-TWoP, sources. As if I needed an "objective" source to confirm it.

I actually was also something of a Leo/Annabeth shipper. That scene where they're sitting together on a plane to a campaign stop or somewhere, Leo the recovering substance abuser & Annabeth the chick who seems to need an Ambien swigged with a glass of booze to get through a plane flight, just got to me somehow. It's still a favorite scene, after all these years.

[DebbieW]

I was watching live by then and I heard it on the morning news.  I was devastated.  I also loved him back on LA Law.  The scene in the woods was gut wrenching, but it was also upsetting when the Democrat party bigwigs were trying to convince him to take over Santos' campaign (at Ellie's wedding, I think) and he said "You guys are just trying to kill me."  I know it was a throw away humorous line when they wrote it, but knowing that we were nearly to the point in filming when he actually died felt like a punch to the gut.  After that I was oddly looking forward to the episode that would be centered around his funeral, hoping for flashback clips and a retrospective.  I was so disappointed by the way they handled it. 

[Zola]

Am digging out and reviving and old thread here, primarily because I  have only just noticed it D'oh!

Leo is and always will be my favourite character from The West Wing. I have yet to see ER, so can't comment on his performance in that show, but here in the The West Wing world, he was truly awesome, and such a believable character as the Chief of Staff!

He had his foibles of course, but there was something "reassuring" about his presence; as if everything would be okay once Leo got on top of it. He wasn't always right of course, but he guided not only Bartlet, but also our familiar senior staff guys and became like a father-figure to all of them. He was like the oil that kept the engine that is The White House running so smoothly.

Felt really sorry for him during the first season and his divorce primarily due to putting his work first above his marriage. And then of course the "outing" of his previous alcohol & drug abuse, was also very damning for him. But despite all of that, it never stopped him from his role of CoS and serving at the pleasure of the president!

Plenty of great episodes through all seven seasons, but perhaps my favourite will always be season 3 and "Bartlet for America", and his vivid, candid, explicit description of what it is like to be an alcoholic to Defence Attorney, Jordon Kendall...

Quote

Kendall - I don't understand how you could have a drink. I don't understand how after everything you worked for - how, on that day of all days, you could be so stupid. 
Leo - That's because you think it has something to do with smart and stupid. Do you have any idea how many alcoholics are in Mensa? You think it's a lack of willpower? That's like thinking somebody with anorexia nervosa has an overdeveloped sense of vanity... 

Kendall - You had a drink? 
Leo - I'm an alcoholic, I don't have one drink. I don't understand people who have one drink. I don't understand people who leave half a glass of wine on the table. I don't understand people who say they've had enough. How can you have enough of feeling like this? How can you not want to feel like this longer? My brain works differently. 

.. and then at the of that episode his close friend. Jed Bartlet gives him a Christmas present - a napkin with his own words written large "Bartlet for America". A wonderful scene for a truly wonderful and revealing episode for Leo.

 

I also loved the lighter moments, especially his dealings with Lord John Marbury,...

Quote

Marbury - Allow me to present myself, Lord John Marbury, I was summoned by your President.

Leo - Yes. We’ve met, ten or twelve times. I’m Leo McGarry.

Marbury - I thought you were the butler?

Leo - No, I’m the White House Chief of Staff!

 And then there was the delightful scene with Ainsley (and her cute Iambic Pentameter) in his office with the offer of a job of Associate White House Council

Quote

Ainsley - Yes, well, Mr. McGarry

Leo - Leo. 

Ainsley - Yes, sir. I've been thinking about that ever since your office called me on Tuesday, and I have something to say on my own behalf, if you'll permit me a moment to say it, and I understand if you won't, but I would really appreciate it if you did. 

Leo - I... didn't really follow that, but whatever. 

Ainsley - I think that it is wrong for a man in your position to summon someone to the White House to reprimand them for voicing opposition. I think that that is wrong, and it is inappropriate. It's inappropriate, and I'll tell you what else. 

Leo - It's wrong? 

Ainsley - Yes!

Leo - That's fine, except you weren't summoned here to be reprimanded. 

Ainsley - Well, then, if you'll permit me, why was I summoned? 

Leo - You have an interesting conversational style, do you know that? 

Ainsley - It's a nervous condition. 

Leo - I used to have a nervous condition. 

Ainsley - How did yours manifest itself? 

Leo -I drank a lot of scotch. 

Ainsley - I get sick when I drink too much. 

Leo - I get drunk when I drink too much. 

Ainsley - Well, Mr. McGarry

Leo - Leo. 

Ainsley - Yes, sir. I'll ask again: for what purpose was I brought here today? 

Leo - So I could offer you a job. 

Ainsley - I'm asking because I do not think that it is fair that I be expected to play the role of the mouse to the White House's cat in the game of, well, you know the game.

...

Leo - The President likes smart people who disagree with him. He wants to hear from you. The President's asking you to serve, and everything else is crap!

Of course much has been written about his heart attack both in real life and within the show, so I won't touch on that here. But despite the unevenness of the early season 6 episodes, I was rather beguiled during Leo's recovery process and his relationship with his attendant nurse - Mrs Chakrabarty. Nothing intimate of course, but they kind of worked well in those brief couple of episodes together.

I cried when Leo had his heart attack in the woods; and I cried even more when John died in real life. 

And here on my desk, I have a Post-It note attached to my monitor, and it says "What Would Leo Do?" It's a bit battered and torn now (just like Leo in some respects), but it acts as my bit of inspiration when needed. 

 

(sorry for the long-winded post)

[Moose135]

5 hours ago, Only Zola said:

I have yet to see ER, so can't comment on his performance in that show,

John Spencer wasn't in ER, maybe you're thinking of LA Law.

 

5 hours ago, Only Zola said:

and then at the of that episode his close friend. Jed Bartlet gives him a Christmas present - a napkin with his own words written large "Bartlet for America". A wonderful scene for a truly wonderful and revealing episode for Leo.

In TWW World, that's the actual napkin Leo shows Jed, from the flashback when Leo goes to see him in New Hampshire to ask Jed to run.

[Zola]

27 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

John Spencer wasn't in ER, maybe you're thinking of LA Law.

 

In TWW World, that's the actual napkin Leo shows Jed, from the flashback when Leo goes to see him in New Hampshire to ask Jed to run.

thanks for the reminder on LA Law. For some reason I had ER in my head, lol

And yes, I do recall that episode - lovely moment

[BW Manilowe]

1 hour ago, Only Zola said:

thanks for the reminder on LA Law. For some reason I had ER in my head, lol

And yes, I do recall that episode - lovely moment

ER could've been in your head because Bradley Whitford (pre-TWW) is guest starred in Love's Labor Lost, an episode of that series which got a lot of critical (& other positive) notice. He also has an ER acting credit for another episode, The title of which I've forgotten, which follows up what happened to his character in the first episode. At least the first episode is worth finding if you can; I don't remember that much about the second other than it deals with the fallout, if you will, from the events of the first.

[Zola]

3 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

ER could've been in your head because Bradley Whitford (pre-TWW) is guest starred in Love's Labor Lost, an episode of that series which got a lot of critical (& other positive) notice. He also has an ER acting credit for another episode, The title of which I've forgotten, which follows up what happened to his character in the first episode. At least the first episode is worth finding if you can; I don't remember that much about the second other than it deals with the fallout, if you will, from the events of the first.

Thank you!

I will add them to my "things to watch" after I have done with Psych!

 

I was about 1 year old when LA Law ended in 1994 and ER started in the same year!

[Crs97]

Love's Labor Lost was such a punch to the gut and it was so unexpected because ER never showed previews at that point.  You never knew what you were going to get each Thursday night.  That episode was quite the topic of conversation the next day, and I had a lot of pregnant friends at the time.

Leo was one of my favorites, and one of my favorite scenes was his hole story:

"This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole. The walls are so steep he can't get out.

"A doctor passes by and the guy shouts up, 'Hey you. Can you help me out?' The doctor writes a prescription, throws it down in the hole and moves on.

"Then a priest comes along and the guy shouts up, 'Father, I'm down in this hole can you help me out?' The priest writes out a prayer, throws it down in the hole and moves on

"Then a friend walks by, 'Hey, Joe, it's me can you help me out?' And the friend jumps in the hole. Our guy says, 'Are you stupid? Now we're both down here.' The friend says, 'Yeah, but I've been down here before and I know the way out.'"

[Moose135]

"As long as I have a job, you have a job."

[Zola]

CJ - Is there anything I can say other than the President rode his bicycle into a tree? 
Leo - He hopes never to do it again. 
CJ - Seriously, they're laughing pretty hard. 
Leo - He rode his bicycle into a tree, CJ, what do you want me? The President, while riding his bicycle on his vacation in Jackson Hole, came to a sudden arboreal stop. 

[Melancholy]

I loved some of the recurring motifs with Leo. How he was such a foodie. 

Quote

LEO Where'd ya eat?

DONNA Phoebe's.

LEO Ah, good. You know what you get there? Tell Dario, the chef, that you work for me and that you want flash-seared escolar with foie gras butter and a fresh juniper berry gravlax on a bed of shaved fennel. You have a nice '87 Petrus with that. [beat] What did you have?

DONNA Two whiskey sours and a bowl of soup.

LEO Ah, okay.

Quote

BARTLET Pierre Boileau is cooking tonight. You want to have dinner?

LEO What's he serving?

BARTLET That's your answer?

LEO I'm just asking.

BARTLET Well, I can tell you that the man specializes in a reinterpretation of classic Provancale cuisine. Cassoulet, duck with green olives...

LEO Yeah...

BARTLET ...saffron chicken...

LEO I haven't had a good saffron chicken in quite some time.

BARTLET Well, don't you think you deserve one?

LEO Yes.

BARTLET His specialty is his dessert: Tomate de Saltambique.

LEO That's gonna be a big, seedless beefsteak tomato stweed for three hours in creme de caramel and stuffed with...

BARTLET Passion fruit, kiwi and hazelnuts, and...

LEO ...served on a pomegranate reduction, yes. 

Quote

LEO I was planning a quiet night

MARGARET Watching your cooking show?

LEO it's not just a cooking show, all right? It's very relaxing.  The woman is sublime.

MARGARET If you ask me, it's soft porn. No one needs to massage garlic Oil 

into a leg of lamb that long  

Quote

LEO We've got pastrami from Krupin's. It's tissue paper thin. Roast beef, corned beef, turkey, Russian dressing, coleslaw, and seedless rye, and winning the heard earned money of your coworkers. This is what I call a night off. Squeeze this piece of rye bread.

C.J. walks over to him and squeezes the rye bread.

C.J. Now what do I do?

It lent a very sweet note that quality Indian food sparked Leo's appetite but also his ability to feel happiness and connection with the nurse after such a miserable experience of Jed betraying him, misconceived foreign policy occurring regardless of his counsel, having a heart attack in the woods and being left for dead, and having to leave his job for lasting health reasons  

Also Leo's boyish excitement over military stuff. Once the hilarity of Jed banging his head on the desk in Gone Quiet over Albie Duncan's war stories wore off on the first few watches, the hilarious contrast between Leo hanging on Albie's every word with Jed's total annoyance keeps the scene awesome with tons of rewatches. Great, great character notes. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Melancholy

[Zola]

And speaking of food, you reminded me of a Margaret/Leo scene relating to raisin muffins. (from "Let Bartlet be Bartlet")

 

Quote

Leo: Margaret!

Margaret: Yes?

Leo: I can't e-mail.

Margaret: They're working on the problem.

Leo: What's the problem?

Margaret: My friend Lynette from the President's Council on Physical Fitness, you remember her?

Leo: No.

Margaret: She's the one where you say, “Who's that?” And I say, “That's my friend Lynette from the President's Council on Physical Fitness.”

Josh: Hey.

Leo: Oh, hey Josh.

Margaret: Anyway, she sent me an email about the actual calorie count in the raisin muffin they're serving in the mess. I forwarded the email to several hundred assistants and secretaries in OEOB and in the West Wing, and that was fine. But Jolene Millman, who works in political liaison, then hit reply, which apparently -

Leo: Oh Margaret. Margaret. I'm sorry. I'm gonna have to - I hung in there as long as I could, but you long since passed the point when I stopped caring. If you're curious, it was right around raisin muffin.

Margaret: I'll leave you two alone.

Leo: And fix the email.

 

I adored those Leo/Margaret verbal clinches.

[Zola]

Well I have just watched the entire West Wing yet again, and I have to say that if someone asked me what your favourite scene was from all seven seasons, I would have to say Leo's confession to Kendall about his alcoholism, which is something I posted about earlier in this thread.

As we all know there are many, many terrific scenes from TWW, too many to mention quite honestly. But that Leo confession to Kendall encompassed everything  I could ever wish for from a drama - a true roller-coaster ride of emotions in fact. The way he describes taking a drink of scotch, from how to add ice to the glass, to the various types of mature scotch. He is telling you a tale that you could probably listen for hours and hours.

I was totally transfixed by that scene, to hear Leo openly confess to being an alcoholic and how he deals with it. Leo will always remain my favourite character from the show and he had many great scenes and story arcs, but I think this particular episode "Bartlet for America" just gripped me from the throat and wouldn't  let go until the very end.

 

LEO - I said, "I like the little things." [smiles] The way a glass feels in your hand - a good glass, thick, with a heavy base. I love the sound an ice cube makes when you drop it from just the right height. The sound of an ice cube being dropped into a glass. Too high and it'll chip when you drop it. Chip the ice and it'll melt too fast in the scotch.  Good scotch sits in a charcoal barrel for 12 years. Very good scotch gets smoked for 29 years.  Johnny Walker Blue...is 60-year-old scotch. "

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, Zola said:

Well I have just watched the entire West Wing yet again, and I have to say that if someone asked me what your favourite scene was from all seven seasons, I would have to say Leo's confession to Kendall about his alcoholism, which is something I posted about earlier in this thread.

As we all know there are many, many terrific scenes from TWW, too many to mention quite honestly. But that Leo confession to Kendall encompassed everything  I could ever wish for from a drama - a true roller-coaster ride of emotions in fact. The way he describes taking a drink of scotch, from how to add ice to the glass, to the various types of mature scotch. He is telling you a tale that you could probably listen for hours and hours.

I was totally transfixed by that scene, to hear Leo openly confess to being an alcoholic and how he deals with it. Leo will always remain my favourite character from the show and he had many great scenes and story arcs, but I think this particular episode "Bartlet for America" just gripped me from the throat and wouldn't  let go until the very end.

 

LEO - I said, "I like the little things." [smiles] The way a glass feels in your hand - a good glass, thick, with a heavy base. I love the sound an ice cube makes when you drop it from just the right height. The sound of an ice cube being dropped into a glass. Too high and it'll chip when you drop it. Chip the ice and it'll melt too fast in the scotch.  Good scotch sits in a charcoal barrel for 12 years. Very good scotch gets smoked for 29 years.  Johnny Walker Blue...is 60-year-old scotch. "

Small point: Kendall is the last name of the character you were talking about. Her first name is Jordon, with an ON--not an AN, IN, EN, UN, or YN--at the end. And that's 1 of my favorite scenes too, for its descriptiveness.

Edited December 15, 2017 by BW Manilowe
I forgot a comment.

[Zola]

5 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Small point: Kendall is the last name of the character you were talking about. Her first name is Jordon, with an ON--not an AN, IN, EN, UN, or YN--at the end. And that's 1 of my favorite scenes too, for its descriptiveness.

haha! Yes, thanks for pointing that out. Don't know what I was thinking (I do have a head cold, so I'll blame that for my silly oversight)

[Sarah 103]

I came to the show late and was first introduced via the DVDs of the series. Leo's line about alcholics in Mensa really resonated with me. Someone a year ahead of me in high school was brilliant. He was already taking college level math courses while still in high school. He was on debate team, math team, academic decatholon, he knew the rules/conventions about getting dressed up (which at the time I found impressive). During my junior year I found out he was an alcholic and it really surprised me. Somewhere along the line I got the (totally wrong) idea that young people who were alcholics were constantly drunk and almost failures. 

Leo's one line helped clarify the situation for me as well as explain it. 

[PeterPirate]

On 1/28/2018 at 12:20 AM, Sarah 103 said:

I came to the show late and was first introduced via the DVDs of the series. Leo's line about alcholics in Mensa really resonated with me. Someone a year ahead of me in high school was brilliant. He was already taking college level math courses while still in high school. He was on debate team, math team, academic decatholon, he knew the rules/conventions about getting dressed up (which at the time I found impressive). During my junior year I found out he was an alcholic and it really surprised me. Somewhere along the line I got the (totally wrong) idea that young people who were alcholics were constantly drunk and almost failures. 

Leo's one line helped clarify the situation for me as well as explain it. 

Anytime someone refers to Bartlet For America I usually give it another watch.  I still consider it the best hour of TV drama ever.  

This time around, I was reminded me that Jeb Bartlet did not actually run to win the presidency, but intended only to make a few speeches and make a few political points, and was surprised that he actually won.  Just saying, that part struck a chord with me.   

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

Leo and food...when he has Jordon in the Sit room and discusses the potato salad. I love my mother's potato salad in the same way. 

[Zola]

I had to feel sorry for Leo when Jenny (his ex-wife) walked out in him (or more accurately he moved out during a separation) in season 1. And even though that particular story-arc wasn't particularly well constructed since we only get to see Jenny a couple of times at the start of a brand new show with characters we hardly knew, it still felt quite a shock when Leo said to her that his job was more important than his marriage!

Because there wasn't much depth to that plotline I rather hated Jenny for doing what she did. I mean, she's been married to him for years and must have known about what was involved with his job, especially when he became Chief of Staff to POTUS. (But then again, Abby wasn't overly keen when Jed announced he wanted to run again despite promising to her early on he wouldn't.)

I guess for some people their job matters more to them than any personal commitment - you look at all the senior staff in TWW, and none of them are without some problems with their marriages or relationships.

One of the bug-bears I have with TWW writing, is the way it disregards certain promising story-lines without explanation (I don't want to touch the old Mandyville trope again), but the Leo/Jordon thing just bit the dust, just when you think Leo had found love again. 

Poor Leo- he served at the pleasure of the president, and paid the ultimate price.

[Guest]

I thought Leo and Jenny's storyline was pretty well done (the first viewing, I didn't quite get it because as you said, we'd barely "met" them at that point).  But it was a nuanced situation where you can completely see both views.

[Zola]

13 minutes ago, deaja said:

I thought Leo and Jenny's storyline was pretty well done (the first viewing, I didn't quite get it because as you said, we'd barely "met" them at that point).  But it was a nuanced situation where you can completely see both views.

Well its been a couple of months since I last did a TWW marathon, so am due for another very soon, and will make an effort to sit with S1 all the way through without pressing the FF button on my remote (over the years my love for S1 really has declined dramatically - not least for the Mandy Effect). But Leo will always remain my favourite character (with Josh, CJ and Vinick in close pursuit), and I have a great affection/empathy for him.

[Guest]

I love Leo. Sometimes he's my favorite character. :) 

[Zola]

Just out of interest, Leo spent something like 4 or 5 years as Bartlet's Chief of Staff. Is that the norm in real life? (as a Brit I do find American politics rather fascinating)

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Zola said:

Just out of interest, Leo spent something like 4 or 5 years as Bartlet's Chief of Staff. Is that the norm in real life? (as a Brit I do find American politics rather fascinating)

Here's a list of Chief of Staffs.  You can see tenures in real life are all over the board.  To avoid getting off-topic or political, I'll just say there is a wide range so I don't think there is a "normal," but Leo's time would have been one of the longer ones in recent history.

[Zola]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Here's a list of Chief of Staffs.  You can see tenures in real life are all over the board.  To avoid getting off-topic or political, I'll just say there is a wide range so I don't think there is a "normal," but Leo's time would have been one of the longer ones in recent history.

Thank you. Mostly useful

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I thought Leo and Jenny's storyline was pretty well done (the first viewing, I didn't quite get it because as you said, we'd barely "met" them at that point).  But it was a nuanced situation where you can completely see both views.

I love that about it, too.  It's much more mature and nuanced than what we normally see on television.  I might want to fault Leo for being consistently absent and even forgetting their anniversary, but he's absolutely right that for the time Bartlet is in office this job is, indeed, more important than their marriage.  Then I might want to be annoyed with her for not understanding, given how long she's been married to a politician, but she's not being irrational in saying she can't live like this; it would be impossible to have truly known how it was going to be in this position versus his previous ones, and spending up to eight years married to someone who is mostly only home to sleep is a big deal, so if after a year of that she knows she can't deal with it, that's fair.  They're neither one wrong, and it simply can't work anymore.  I prefer that so much to storylines where one party is clearly at fault in a break-up.

[Zola]

1 minute ago, Bastet said:

I love that about it, too.  It's much more mature and nuanced than what we normally see on television.  I might want to fault Leo for being consistently absent and even forgetting their anniversary, but he's absolutely right that for the time Bartlet is in office this job is, indeed, more important than their marriage.  Then I might want to be annoyed with her for not understanding, given how long she's been married to a politician, but she's not being irrational in saying she can't live like this; it would be impossible to have truly known how it was going to be in this position versus his previous ones, and spending up to eight years married to someone who is mostly only home to sleep is a big deal, so if after a year of that she knows she can't deal with it, that's fair.  They're neither one wrong, and it simply can't work anymore.  I prefer that so much to storylines where one party is clearly at fault in a break-up.

Good points. I will bear this in mind when I get round to watching the show again in late February (currently watching - and enjoying - "Homicide: Life on the Streets")

[Guest]

Especially since she handled it pretty well.  He didn't catch her cheating on him or leaking things to the newspaper to discredit him.  She told him "I can't live like this."

[Zola]

10 minutes ago, deaja said:

Especially since she handled it pretty well.  He didn't catch her cheating on him or leaking things to the newspaper to discredit him.  She told him "I can't live like this."

In my initial nativity when watching this show for the first couple of rounds, it was that very statement I had issues with - "I can't live like this!" 

I realise she spent most of her social time at home, probably on her own. But I would be very surprised if was not invited to the odd party given Leo's social and political position.  Or is it a simple case that the spouses of senior government officials are not invited to such shindigs?

The house they were living in wasn't exactly shabby either. And didn't she have a job? I also realise she loved Leo, but she also came across as being a touch selfish, and perhaps a little unrealistic. Leo was CoS to the most powerful man on the planet: just a shame she couldn't bend a little. Although as you rightly point out, she didn't go to the press or go on a discrediting campaign. So she had some dignity I guess. 

On subsequent viewings, I guess I do see her point. But all the same what could Leo do to make their lives easier? Resign and give up public office and civic duty after years of trying to get "his man" into the White House?

 

 

(I realise I am making a huge mountain from this tiny molehill, but I just adore Leo)

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, Zola said:

But all the same what could Leo do to make their lives easier? Resign and give up public office and civic duty after years of trying to get "his man" into the White House?

That was rather the point, for me - neither one was wrong, so there was nothing to change.  The situation was untenable, and that's what made it sad.  They loved each other, they'd been married a long time and always made it work, but now they were in a situation where he couldn't quit/cut back on his hours and she couldn't live with a husband whose job realities meant their relationship was almost non-existent.  He shouldn't quit (nor was she asking him to, another thing I love about the break-up -- no ultimatum).  She shouldn't live like that.  So it had to end.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Zola said:

But I would be very surprised if was not invited to the odd party given Leo's social and political position.  Or is it a simple case that the spouses of senior government officials are not invited to such shindigs?

I'm sure she was. But I'm also sure that she was in a bad position.  Stay home a lot? Or go to parties on the political scene where you never know if people are trying to use you to get closer to someone more powerful, etc.

[Crs97]

I also remember that she stayed with him through both rehabs.  Maybe she thought this was now just another obsession replacing the alcohol and pills that would take precedence over their marriage and keep him away from her.  She put up with a lot before finally calling it quits.

[Zola]

I just looked at some of the transcript for "Five Votes Down" and there's a telling scene between Leo and Jenny when he returns home after another late night.

Quote

 

JENNY Where have you been?

LEO What do you mean?

JENNY The event was over at 10:30. I thought you were gonna come straight home.

LEO I'm really sorry, Jenny.

JENNY What happened?

LEO We're five votes short on 802.

JENNY And what could you possibly do about that at two o'clock in the morning that you can't do during normal business hours?

LEO I can do things, Jenny. I wake people up. I meet with key staff. It's a long...

JENNY Leo...  Come to bed.

LEO Yeah, I'll be right up. [sees a box on the table, picks it up and looks at it] What's this?

JENNY It's a wristwatch.

LEO For me?

JENNY Yes.

LEO From you?

JENNY Yeah.

LEO For what?

JENNY  Our anniversary!

 

So engrossed in his work he completely forgot about their anniversary! No wonder Jenny wanted out (although to her credit she didn't ball him out; instead she just resigned herself to yet another regular and all too familiar disappointment)

Edited February 1, 2018 by Zola

[BW Manilowe]

On 2/1/2018 at 12:27 PM, deaja said:

Here's a list of Chief of Staffs.  You can see tenures in real life are all over the board.  To avoid getting off-topic or political, I'll just say there is a wide range so I don't think there is a "normal," but Leo's time would have been one of the longer ones in recent history.

There's an episode that aired in about the middle, or toward the end, of season 3, It's on the DVDs at least in the US, & I assume iTunes has it with their downloads (but I haven't honestly checked to be sure). It's apparently not on Netflix with the other eps though. It was considered a "special" episode because nothing in it connects to the rest of the storylines, either before or after the ep; it's a standalone ep, like "Isaac & Ishmael" (which also doesn't connect to the rest of the storylines before or after it). 

It's called "The Documentary Special". And I hadn't realized, or maybe known, this until writing this post but this episode won the 2002 Emmy Award for Outstanding Special Class Program.

Real White House staff (mostly former) & former Presidents Ford, Carter, & Clinton talk about what life is like when you work (& live) in the White House. Clips from various episodes aired up to that point are shown that connect to/illustrate the story being told or the point the speaker is trying to make.

I think someone mentions in that that real life White House jobs--at least those among the Senior Staff/those who advise & counsel the President--have a pretty high turnover rate. The only thing is, since this White House was fictional & being run by people only pretending they work in the political world (though many of them are really politically savvy in real life), & most/all of these people were under contracts securing their professional services for a certain amount of time, the Bartlet White House couldn't have as massive a staff turnover at 1 time as the real 1 might possibly.

I think, up until the storyline involving the election of Jed Bartlet's successor, the only "White House employees" who left their jobs were Mandy & Sam, among the regular characters (the actors left the cast), & Ainsley Hayes (the actress left because Ainsley was only a recurring role & Calleigh on CSI: Miami was a regular character) & Vice President Hoynes who was replaced by Vice President Russell; I don't know if the actor who played Hoynes wanted to leave or if he was replaced for some storyline purposes.

Leo left his White House job, due to illness. He was replaced by CJ as White House Chief of Staff but remained on the show as a Special Adviser to Jed/the White House until he was named as Democratic Presidential Candidate Matthew Santos' Vice Presidential running mate; he was unseen after the real-life death of the actor who played Leo during the December/January holidays when S7 was being filmed. And the character of Leo was declared dead on the same Election Night which would determine whether or not he had been elected as Vice President of that fictional version of the US. Also, though Richard Schiff remained on the show, his character Toby was fired from the White House for disclosing to a major newspaper reporter the existence of a top secret military space shuttle which had been used to rescue some astronauts stranded at the International Space Station, or something; Toby told about the military space shuttle because of something to do with the cancer-related death of his brother David, who was a NASA/space shuttle astronaut.

When the storyline shifted to finding the President who'd succeed Jed, that's when we got close to the more realistic turnover in White House staff. Josh left to run Santos' campaign & he was periodically advised by Leo during the primaries, as well as Toby, very secretly, during the campaign; Will left to run Vice President Russell's campaign after he had previously been shifted to the Vice President's staff; Donna finally got tired of Josh not letting her really grow in (or out of) her work, left her job as Josh's Assistant & joined Will on Russell's campaign, which pissed off Josh. Also, after "growing out of his job" as Jed's body man, Charlie became CJ's new assistant. All of these actors were still on the show, just in new jobs for the characters. Which is how they handled the issue of showing a major White House Staff turnover. 

[caitmcg]

On 2/3/2018 at 2:04 PM, BW Manilowe said:

There's an episode that aired in about the middle, or toward the end, of season 3, It's on the DVDs at least in the US, & I assume iTunes has it with their downloads (but I haven't honestly checked to be sure). It's apparently not on Netflix with the other eps though. It was considered a "special" episode because nothing in it connects to the rest of the storylines, either before or after the ep; it's a standalone ep, like "Isaac & Ishmael" (which also doesn't connect to the rest of the storylines before or after it). 

It's called "The Documentary Special". And I hadn't realized, or maybe known, this until writing this post but this episode won the 2002 Emmy Award for Outstanding Special Class Program.

Real White House staff (mostly former) & former Presidents Ford, Carter, & Clinton talk about what life is like when you work (& live) in the White House. Clips from various episodes aired up to that point are shown that connect to/illustrate the story being told or the point the speaker is trying to make.

 

It is on Netflix: S3.E19 "The West Wing Special Episode." It really has a large roster of former staff from administrations of both parties, both well-known people who had (or later acquired) public presence and young behind-the-scenes aides, as well as the the three former presidents.

There were also a couple other longtime recurring characters they turned over, off the top of my head: Both Mrs. Landingham and Admiral Fitzwallace were killed, largely for plot reasons, and their roles in the administration taken over by new characters.

[BW Manilowe]

6 hours ago, caitmcg said:

It is on Netflix: S3.E19 "The West Wing Special Episode." It really has a large roster of former staff from administrations of both parties, both well-known people who had (or later acquired) public presence and young behind-the-scenes aides, as well as the the three former presidents.

There were also a couple other longtime recurring characters they turned over, off the top of my head: Both Mrs. Landingham and Admiral Fitzwallace were killed, largely for plot reasons, and their roles in the administration taken over by new characters.

How could I forget Mrs. L & Fitz?! Thanks for the additional info.

I swear I'd always heard, though, that Mrs. L was killed off because (the late) Kathryn Joosten, who played her, had gotten a part in a new series pilot & if that was picked up, she wouldn't be able to do both shows.  So, Aaron wrote that very dramatic exit for her. But according to this, it apparently may have been just a storyline-related departure, after all.

The only problems were, the pilot for the other show didn't get picked up as a series, & Mrs. Landingham couldn't go back to TWW after that because Aaron wrote Mrs. Landingham out by killing her off--which is irreversible, of course, unless you're Patrick Duffy & the "creatives" behind the original Dallas series & you explain away a major character's (Patrick Duffy's) death & return to the series like he'd never died by saying the character of his love interest dreamed/had a nightmare in which Duffy's character was dead (snork).

[caitmcg]

7 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

How could I forget Mrs. L & Fitz?! Thanks for the additional info.

I swear I'd always heard, though, that Mrs. L was killed off because (the late) Kathryn Joosten, who played her, had gotten a part in a new series pilot & if that was picked up, she wouldn't be able to do both shows.  So, Aaron wrote that very dramatic exit for her. But according to this, it apparently may have been just a storyline-related departure, after all.

The only problems were, the pilot for the other show didn't get picked up as a series, & Mrs. Landingham couldn't go back to TWW after that because Aaron wrote Mrs. Landingham out by killing her off--which is irreversible, of course, unless you're Patrick Duffy & the "creatives" behind the original Dallas series & you explain away a major character's (Patrick Duffy's) death & return to the series like he'd never died by saying the character of his love interest dreamed/had a nightmare in which Duffy's character was dead (snork).

Of course, while she didn't (and couldn't) appear regularly, Mrs. L did turn up a couple more times after her death, when Jed imagines conversations with her in later episodes.

[storyskip]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:46 PM, Zola said:

I just looked at some of the transcript for "Five Votes Down" and there's a telling scene between Leo and Jenny when he returns home after another late night.

So engrossed in his work he completely forgot about their anniversary! No wonder Jenny wanted out (although to her credit she didn't ball him out; instead she just resigned herself to yet another regular and all too familiar disappointment)

Leo is without a doubt my favorite character on West Wing and Jenny, we hardly knew her long enough to really form an opinion.

But I think it is important to remember that she did stand by him through his alcoholism and his drug addiction, through his going through rehab and also falling off the wagon.

The dialogue that was quoted in the post I tried (and I think failed) to quote, if you read the first back and forth lines they are the classic exchange between a significant other and an alcoholic/drug addict.

"Where have you been?"  - Have you been out drinking??

"You were supposed to be back..." - Are you late and lying to cover up you've been passed out somewhere?

It seems unfair since we the audience know he's been working and what the job is, but if you figure how many times Jenny had these sorts of conversations, when she had a young child at home and a husband who was coming home late because he was drunk, it puts a little more perspective on why, this time around, she just couldn't live with the niggling question "is it his job or the bottle??"

[Zola]

6 hours ago, storyskip said:

Leo is without a doubt my favorite character on West Wing and Jenny, we hardly knew her long enough to really form an opinion.

But I think it is important to remember that she did stand by him through his alcoholism and his drug addiction, through his going through rehab and also falling off the wagon.

The dialogue that was quoted in the post I tried (and I think failed) to quote, if you read the first back and forth lines they are the classic exchange between a significant other and an alcoholic/drug addict.

"Where have you been?"  - Have you been out drinking??

"You were supposed to be back..." - Are you late and lying to cover up you've been passed out somewhere?

It seems unfair since we the audience know he's been working and what the job is, but if you figure how many times Jenny had these sorts of conversations, when she had a young child at home and a husband who was coming home late because he was drunk, it puts a little more perspective on why, this time around, she just couldn't live with the niggling question "is it his job or the bottle??"

I would have loved to have learnt more of Jenny, but all we got were little bite-size chunks before she disappeared. No doubt she had been a rock for him over the years of drug addiction & alcoholism, but we never really get to appreciate that because from those very few scenes we see of her, as well as the conversations about her, we - the audience - don't appreciate that long-term support, and probably just see her as a selfish uncaring person.

Jenny was one of the few characters I truly missed from the show.