S03.E09: Closure

[ChelseaNH]

For me Manpain is when a woman or even another man are killed or tortured to give the man, pain to have to deal with.

 

AKA "This time, it's personal."

[Jeezaloo]

Simmons storyline was pushed aside for Fitz to be the hero

Pushed aside, come on. Simmons got an entire episode to herself; she wasn't pushed aside, it was just time for someone else to get to be in the show for once LOL. Maybe you're re-writing the show in your mind until it becomes a sexist thing that it really isn't.

 

Again: Simmons got an entire episode to herself. Which means all the male characters' story lines were pushed aside for that entire episode. Why no concern for their 'agency' on your part?

 

Come on, admit it: some of the strongest characters on the show are females (May, Bobbi, Daisy), and it isn't a sexist show at all.

 

It just might have some sexist viewers, projecting their misandry, onto the show.

 

 

[sinkwriter]

 

I don't use the term "manpain" to say men can't feel emotion. For me Manpain is when a woman or even another man are killed or tortured to give the man, pain to have to deal with. Killing Roz was for Coulson to go all ragey, Simmons storyline was pushed aside for Fitz to be the hero. That's manpain, it has nothing to do with the man being emotional.

 

I understand what you're saying - and I definitely thought killing Roz was a huge waste of a potentially good female character, one that is equal to Coulson (rather than being like a daughter to him, or working for him) - but I do have a question to pose:

 

At what point is it "manpain" and at what point is it simply a true character story arc for the male character? It seems like that "manpain" argument could be made against any time any male character feels pain or struggles because at some point he's likely going to lose a friend or love (as you note above, whether male or female). Every story arc under the sun has hit a trope or two. It's bound to happen.

Edited December 8, 2015 by sinkwriter

[xqueenfrostine]

.Also I don't think Fitz getting to go though the portal should be seen as a price - would you rather she didn't hold up under torture and went instead or they tortured Fitz and she folded? She believes in the greater god and isn't driven by her emotions like Fitz. The way it happened is true to the characters. That is important to note.

 

 

I don't see this as an either/or proposition.  For one, it assumes that the writers only had these two options given to them that they were forced to choose from, not that they created the circumstances under which Jemma would become the more passive figure in her own storyline.  I think it's fine that Hydra chose Fitz over Jemma to take with them, because he seems less inclined to sacrifice his life in order to sabotage the plan to bring the Mystery Inhuman through the portal.   What I'm not fine with is the rather passive way Jemma responded to Hydra's plan once it was clear that Fitz caved.  Instead of showing how how Jemma might continue to try to think her way out of the situation or at least making things more difficult for Hydra, we got a lot of useless angst instead. It didn't have to be that way.  They could have even let Jemma escape the Iron Chef guy and jump through the portal after Fitz.  If the show could have found a way for Coulson to follow through the portal, despite not even being in the building at the time, there are no credible writing reasons why they couldn't have done the same for Jemma.  If Jemma ends up having a really important story role in tonight's episode (fretting for Fitz's safety does not count), then this won't matter much, but it bothers me the writers have given Jemma few things to do other than worried and/or guilty hand-wringing since 4722 Hours.  

I understand what you're saying - and I definitely thought killing Roz was a huge waste of a potentially good female character, one that is equal to Coulson (rather than being like a daughter to him, or working for him) - but I do have a question to pose:

 

At what point is it "manpain" and at what point is it simply a true character story arc for the male character?

 

 

It's a true character arc when the emotional stuff is a consequence of a character's own choices and/or path the's chosen to go down.  Or if the death/rape/assault in question that he's grieving over happened is a natural consequence of the dead/beaten/raped character's story arc.  If someone is dies, or is raped, or is otherwise maimed for no other reason than to give that character something to react to, then it's not a real character arc.  It's just Drama in the form of lazy writing.

Edited December 9, 2015 by xqueenfrostine

[Fogh]

I don't see this as an either/or proposition.  For one, it assumes that the writers only had these two options given to them that they were forced to choose from, not that they created the circumstances under which Jemma would become the more passive figure in her own storyline.  I think it's fine that Hydra chose Fitz over Jemma to take with them, because he seems less inclined to sacrifice his life in order to sabotage the plan to bring the Mystery Inhuman through the portal.   What I'm not fine with is the rather passive way Jemma responded to Hydra's plan once it was clear that Fitz caved.  Instead of showing how how Jemma might continue to try to think her way out of the situation or at least making things more difficult for Hydra, we got a lot of useless angst instead. It didn't have to be that way.  They could have even let Jemma escape the Iron Chef guy and jump through the portal after Fitz.  If the show could have found a way for Coulson to follow through the portal, despite not even being in the building at the time, there are no credible writing reasons why they couldn't have done the same for Jemma.  If Jemma ends up having a really important story role in tonight's episode (fretting for Fitz's safety does not count), then this won't matter much, but it bothers me the writers have given Jemma few things to do other than worried and/or guilty hand-wringing since 4722 Hours.  

 

I agree with one thing, and I said this many times on several forums, I would've liked Jemma to volunteer to go instead of Fitz. Not to sacrifice herself (Fitz shouldn't be the only one to do that imo) but because she figures she has a better chance of avoiding disaster on the other side. They wouldn't have let her though. Had she jumped through they might just have thrown her back.

 

If you don't ship FitzSimmons, I can see how her story-line can be perceived as lackluster. However it was more than clear they would go the romance route with them and even so, I can see how the story-line has developed her character outside the relationship. She is much tougher now than before she was swallowed up. She is battle-hardened which makes me think she does try to spoil HYDRA's plans in 3x10. SHIELD will be attacking and she could use the confusion to escape and go John McClane on them. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Fogh

[silverstream]

They both chose what's best - Jemma chose the world and Fitz chose Jemma. Fitz is the romantic lead in this pairing.

 

Tbh, while I understand being annoyed with the 'romantic' angle of that particular situation (and it was certainly set up that way), I think if it had been (for example) Skye's or Mack's screams on the other end Fitz would have caved in as well - he's just not the kind of person to hold out under this particular kind of torture. (Which of course reduces Jenna's role even more, but that is a whole 'nother can of worms.)

 

What I'm not fine with is the rather passive way Jemma responded to Hydra's plan once it was clear that Fitz caved.

This! I was actually surprised that there wasn't a plan other than "go along with Hydra and do what they want". I suppose they could reveal something in the next episode (perhaps Jenna passing Fitz a secret note during the hug?) but I doubt it.

 

Btw, is anybody else finding it odd that we refer to Jemma as Jemma and not Simmons, but to Fitz as Fitz and not Leo? Was there some sort of fan vote I wasn't informed of? :P

[Fogh]

Btw, is anybody else finding it odd that we refer to Jemma as Jemma and not Simmons, but to Fitz as Fitz and not Leo? Was there some sort of fan vote I wasn't informed of? :P

 

I think Simmons is very formal so I use Jemma. Everyone on the show calls him Fitz and it's sort of endearing imo. I wouldn't mind if Jemma calls him Loo at one point - maybe they have that one saved for a particular moment. I can't recall if she has done that.

[ChelseaNH]

Simmons got an entire episode to herself. Which means all the male characters' story lines were pushed aside for that entire episode. Why no concern for their 'agency' on your part?

 

Agency and screentime are two entirely different things.  Agency is about making choices, as opposed to passively accepting whatever comes to be.  It's not measured in screentime.

[ahisma]

Count me in with everyone upset that Roz (and Banks) were taken out, and feeling that Coulson's reaction was OTT for the amount of time they'd known each other. I have to put it down to clunky writing that Coulson clued Ward in to the phone trace by saying "time's up." Even in a rage he is ultra-competent and would never tip off his target.

Everyone else (including Wilson Fisk, my other favorite MCU villan) has plans that are so hazy that even the most obsessed fan would have a hard time diagramming their life goals and how they mean to achieve them

So true! Malik saying, "And then we can do whatever we want..." just sounded weak. Tony Stark said it best in Avengers when he told Loki it's a no-win. What do you really have if you "rule" all 7 billion squirrelly, individualistic humans? A giant pain in the ass and way too much work, really. I think that about all movie villains, now. Hell, I think that about ISIL.

Loved Mack as the acting director! He just gets better and better.

better call Coulson to see what we should do.

I don't think that's why Mack called Coulson at all. He knew Coulson was tearing after Ward/Hydra in a rage, and he just found out that Hydra took Fitz and Simmons. He needed Coulson to 1) keep an eye out for F/S, 2) not nuke them from high altitude.

Unfortunately the TV/movies divide was a little too blatant when Mack said out loud to May that Hydra was about to open a portal to let through this big evil from another planet—what could they do? Um, that is obviously Avengers-level s**t. Maybe don't hang a lantern on that.

[John Potts]

Can we have HYDRA led by Gideon in future? He seems more capable than Ward, who seems purely obsessed with hurting SHIELD, which is purely a secondary objective to the whole "World Domination" objective (keep your eyes on the prize, fascists!). I did think that sending Ward through the portal was his means of eliminating a rival with a side order of maybe bringing a new power into play. Of course, if comic books have taught us anything it's that evil characters almost always come to regret bringing somebody more powerful than them into play (they rarely like to share), but I guess we'll see.

 

 

Spartan Girl Killing Roz just when we are starting to like her?! Damn you, Whedons!!!

Wootini  when this episode started with them sharing takeout burgers, (with wine?!?) I was like, "Wait, they're good again?

 

 

Not only with wine, but with a knife & fork (who does that!?), IIRC. But it seemed odd to me that they were apparently back together given how they were last week. But I guess no woman can survive having sex with the hero in a comic book series (unless they're a regular themselves), even today.

 

 

blueray I love the idea of Mack being in charge temporarily since he is the only one who doesn't hate Ward

 

 

He definitely came off better as Director than Coulson has. Phil has all the qualities of a good second in command (loyal, dependable) - he's not a good leader. Whether Mack will turn out better is another matter (though I suspect it won't last more than a couple of weeks).

 

 

Monty Ashley (Recap) Hydra has spent more of its recent history conducting random SHIELD attacks than trying to get to alien planets. So previous Hydra leaders seem to have been more of the Ward mindset.

 

 

Obviously, HYDRA really needs to work on its mission statement: they're so busy backstabbing each other to actually work on what they're supposed to be about. Clearly they need to talk to more Management Consultants!