miss-vanilla November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 No, I think that's just wonky dialogue by the writers so that they can subtly remind the viewers about the Gemini coven and Kai without Valerie saying the dreaded, "As you know... Kai was a member of the Gemini coven, etc." Where they are basically having Valerie talk to the audience by telling Caroline and Alaric things they already know. But later on, when they are seated to do the spell and she's explaining about how twins are the lifeblood of the coven and the transfer spell, she says, "if a pregnant mother is in danger, the transfer is our magical failsafe." In that situation, she is clearly identifying herself with the coven. Plus just the fact that she knows so much about the coven that she can recognize their magic, and she knows what they value, etc. I don't know if the show remembers or cares to go there - but they made a point of Damon having a unique ability to sire vampires i.e. make vampires who are as slavishly devoted to him as Klaus Michaelson's hybrids were to him. He did it to Elena, and he did it to some other vampire from his past. Since they linked Stefan's Ripper-dom to Lily's, they can feasibly use that to explain Lily's hold on her family - that Damon got his "ability to sire" vampires from his mother. So in a similar way, all the heretics are 'sired' to Lily and that's why they are so devoted to her. Of course the whole theory of vampire abilities and DNA breaks down on close inspection, but what really holds up to scrutiny on this show? Maybe, but I have another issue. It has been indicated that the Gemini coven is familial one in which all members are connected by a bloodline, but considering the ethnicity of Beau and Oscar, and the age they are, it would seem unlikely that they share the same bloodlines but rather belonged to other covens once upon a time. Also, I remember the scene outside of Salvatore crypt in which each Heretic told Damon a little of their backstory of how they came to meet Lily/Malcolm. None of them seemed to know of the other before finding acceptance with her. I'm sure we won't get a definitive answer from the show, and it may turn out to be unimportant anyway. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 14, 2015 Author Share November 14, 2015 Maybe, but I have another issue. It has been indicated that the Gemini coven is familial one in which all members are connected by a bloodline, but considering the ethnicity of Beau and Oscar, and the age they are, it would seem unlikely that they share the same bloodlines but rather belonged to other covens once upon a time. Also, I remember the scene outside of Salvatore crypt in which each Heretic told Damon a little of their backstory of how they came to meet Lily/Malcolm. None of them seemed to know of the other before finding acceptance with her. I'm sure we won't get a definitive answer from the show, and it may turn out to be unimportant anyway. My understanding from last season is that the head of the gemini coven is a position passed down through Jo's family but that there are other members of the coven who aren't directly related to them by blood. Link to comment
miss-vanilla November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 My understanding from last season is that the head of the gemini coven is a position passed down through Jo's family but that there are other members of the coven who aren't directly related to them by blood. Ok, that is a reasonable assumption, but what I feel is not a reasonable assumption, is that siphoners are a phenomena that only exists within the Gemini coven. It would make sense if they were all from same bloodlines, since it could be a genetic mutation or something, but if we reasonably assuming they are not, then I'm as confused as I was before. My gut feeling is that they are not all part of the Gemini coven, the only connection they have is that they were imprisoned like Kai by the Gemini coven, because of what they are (heretics), and what they were doing. I might be wrong though. Link to comment
Jads November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 I liked this episode but ended up watching it in bits so feel I'm missing stuff. Firstly is the Jacob character in Stefan's dream an imaginary character? I wondered if initially he was the third Salvatore brother - the long lost relative of Zach and Sarah. PW 's 1860s hair is so terrible it always makes me laugh. The Defan scenes were absolute gold and the highlight of the season. I really liked that it was Damon who got the secret out of Stefan but had to push him to the brink. Stefan has always been honourable in the way that the show has told us that Elijah is meant to be. I actually thought the way Caroline dealt with Valerie was cool. She decided she was going to trust Stefan and not let Valerie push her buttons. Although Caroline, Valerie is not going to cut it talking the way she does and saying she's from Liverpool. I found that unintentionally hilarious. I don't like this whole pregnant Caroline and Alaric as the fiancée thing. I doubt Liz Forbes would approve either. Also how pregnant is Caroline? I mean Jo must have been at least 6 weeks by the wedding plus another 6 weeks and it's twins. Did she not hear the 2 extra heart beats she's carrying around? The Gemini coven always had a weird founding families vibe to them so I could see Valerie as a member. The magic siphoning thing could be a result of a defect in the magic gene magnified by the effects of inbreeding within the coven? Link to comment
Bort November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 It's quite an interesting discussion because until now, I hadn't questioned the heretics/siphoners being Gemini ex-witches. I hope we get more back story on the heretics because they're our only source to knowing more about the coven now. It is interesting because I had pretty much assumed that the siphon witch was a random mutation that could happen to any witch and so I hadn't assumed at all that they were Gemini. Valerie has confirmed that she is but I guess we need more information about the origins of the rest of them. 2 Link to comment
Jads November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 It's quite an interesting discussion because until now, I hadn't questioned the heretics/siphoners being Gemini ex-witches. I hope we get more back story on the heretics because they're our only source to knowing more about the coven now. One thing I'm curious about is if the Parkers are the 'designated' leaders, or if it's more Game-of-Throney. Joshua Parker and Mrs. Parker spat out 6 more children just to get another pair of twins to do the merge ceremony. And that struck me as people wanting to hold onto their power. I'm sure there are other twins in the coven, some even related to the Parkers that could have been in line for leadership. But the Parkers wanted to be sure that it was their child that became the next leader. Wow, did the heretics just get interesting ?!? On a different note, I find the appellation "heretic" in this case really odd. A heretic is someone whose beliefs usually religious differ from the norm. The point is that a heretic makes a choice whereas being a siphoner seems to something you just are due to genetics (I do get how ludicrous discussing the genetics of magic is ;) ). It's just a small plot point and I guess there were persecuted but still. I feel like JP and CD decided upon the name after watching Reign and didn't really think it through. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 14, 2015 Author Share November 14, 2015 One thing I'm curious about is if the Parkers are the 'designated' leaders, or if it's more Game-of-Throney. Joshua Parker and Mrs. Parker spat out 6 more children just to get another pair of twins to do the merge ceremony. And that struck me as people wanting to hold onto their power. I'm sure there are other twins in the coven, some even related to the Parkers that could have been in line for leadership. But the Parkers wanted to be sure that it was their child that became the next leader. It may have been fear of everyone in their coven dying. They said last season that if the leader of the gemini coven dies, everyone in the coven dies, hence the urgency in producing another pair of twins after they realized Kai didn't have any of his own magic. Link to comment
Bort November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 Wow, did the heretics just get interesting ?!? In theory. In actuality, I only find Valerie interesting. Bo and the lesbians are still dull. Link to comment
HunterHunted November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 (edited) It is interesting because I had pretty much assumed that the siphon witch was a random mutation that could happen to any witch and so I hadn't assumed at all that they were Gemini. Valerie has confirmed that she is but I guess we need more information about the origins of the rest of them. This has been my assumption too that a siphoning witch is a rare mutation that might be slightly more prevalent in the Gemini Coven, but not only found in their bloodline. On another note, it just occurred to me that the actor playing Julian also played Julius Caesar on Spartacus. Caeser was such a smug ass. Edited November 15, 2015 by HunterHunted Link to comment
immortalfrieza November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 It may have been fear of everyone in their coven dying. They said last season that if the leader of the gemini coven dies, everyone in the coven dies, hence the urgency in producing another pair of twins after they realized Kai didn't have any of his own magic. I honestly have to wonder what the thought process of the Gemini coven was when they decided on this whole system. Yes, having twice as much magic as everybody else automatically makes somebody a perfect leader and making it so that the life of an ENTIRE coven is tied to the one person everybody would try to kill if there was a war or something by default is a REALLY REALLY GOOD IDEA. Link to comment
DigitalCount November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 I am absolutely here for Stefan and Damon on the same page, working together as a unit. That's how they've stayed alive when people older and stronger have come at them with the force of a hurricane, and those same older and stronger people are all dead now. I was struck dumb by a) Caroline and Alaric and b) Pregnant Caroline. I'm willing to give it a pass if it's because of BTS issues, but maaaaaaan that gets my back up. Also, speaking of Alaric, it's becoming really hard to continue despising the actor when he consistently turns in the best performances. Not a man I like sharing a planet with, but holy mackerel is he good at his craft. I have to wonder if Valerie was responsible for the dream with Jacob. The other Heretics said she was the worst headcase of them all, and I could see this whole "sweet, loving and gentle" thing she's doing as being part of a long con. They manage to take out Julian and then WHAM, here comes Valerie. We know vampires have the ability to manipulate dreams, especially when the target is particularly vulnerable. And if she's trying to recruit people to her side, she could do a lot worse than Stefan. 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 15, 2015 Author Share November 15, 2015 speaking of Alaric, it's becoming really hard to continue despising the actor when he consistently turns in the best performances. Not a man I like sharing a planet with, but holy mackerel is he good at his craft.(1) He has come a long way from his days of asking Reese Witherspoon, "You got into Harvard?"(2) My coping mechanism is this: I pretend Alaric is the real person and Matt Davis is the fictional character. 3 Link to comment
miss-vanilla November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 Kai not having his own magic wasn't what made his parents unwilling to let him & Jo merge. Being a siphoner only meant that if he merged with his twin, he would finally have permanent magic of his own. And according to Joshua, Kai being a siphoner meant he was guaranteed to win a merge, regardless of how powerful the other twin was. It was him being violent sociopath that made them declare him unfit to rule and so they started procreating again. I don't think the heretics are interesting, but the Gemini coven might have been. Too bad all the living ones are dead. I was under the impression that being a siphoner was an abomination in the witches eyes and therefore not worthy. Kai was psychopathic, but is revenge on his family was born from a desire to see them suffer from shunning him, passing him over for leadership and general treating him as less than. All the heretics were kicked out ouf their respective covens for this reason, and were living isolated lives until they met Lily, who took them in one by one. I have to wonder if Valerie was responsible for the dream with Jacob. The other Heretics said she was the worst headcase of them all, and I could see this whole "sweet, loving and gentle" thing she's doing as being part of a long con. They manage to take out Julian and then WHAM, here comes Valerie. We know vampires have the ability to manipulate dreams, especially when the target is particularly vulnerable. And if she's trying to recruit people to her side, she could do a lot worse than Stefan. I don't think Val is inherently bad, her experiences have made her a little crazy IMO. Wasn't she working in the TB ward when Lily found her? I think Stefans dream was just that, a dream. He admits to Damon that the whole thing has affected him very deeply during their talk. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 15, 2015 Author Share November 15, 2015 I assumed Stefan was just dreaming about what it would have been like if Valerie hadn't miscarried and he had the chance to be a father. 2 Link to comment
raytch November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 I am absolutely here for Stefan and Damon on the same page, working together as a unit. That's how they've stayed alive when people older and stronger have come at them with the force of a hurricane, and those same older and stronger people are all dead now. I was struck dumb by a) Caroline and Alaric and b) Pregnant Caroline. I'm willing to give it a pass if it's because of BTS issues, but maaaaaaan that gets my back up. Also, speaking of Alaric, it's becoming really hard to continue despising the actor when he consistently turns in the best performances. Not a man I like sharing a planet with, but holy mackerel is he good at his craft. I have to wonder if Valerie was responsible for the dream with Jacob. The other Heretics said she was the worst headcase of them all, and I could see this whole "sweet, loving and gentle" thing she's doing as being part of a long con. They manage to take out Julian and then WHAM, here comes Valerie. We know vampires have the ability to manipulate dreams, especially when the target is particularly vulnerable. And if she's trying to recruit people to her side, she could do a lot worse than Stefan. I wondered about that too! The dream sequence was hilarious. Stefan with a toupee always amuses me and the whole dream was just so on the nose. DO YOU GET IT? This show was never subtle but this is a whole new level. I do like where Stefan is now. I know a lot of people don't like his character but I always loved him mostly because of the way Paul Wesley portrayed him. If you think about it, Stefan is a lot like Bill Compton and yet I find BC to be one of the most despicable characters in the history of TV... Loved all his scenes with Damon. I thought Caroline was funny with Valerie and trying to send her to Seattle (they have a space needle!) but man Valerie chewed her down with her comeback. She's obviously competing over Stefan's heart. But I'm not interested in the love triangle. I just like where Stefan is at emotionally... Link to comment
prospazzinator November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 Valerie is cracking me up in that she seems way more interested in antagonizing Caroline than she does in getting together with Stefan. 1 Link to comment
raytch November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 Valerie is cracking me up in that she seems way more interested in antagonizing Caroline than she does in getting together with Stefan. You're probably right haha Link to comment
DigitalCount November 15, 2015 Share November 15, 2015 I have to say, the opening scene where Beau and Julian were fencing was so much more fun than it should have been. Beau in particular looked like he was having a blast, and the part where Julian tried to blame their location on him was hilarious. That look he gave Julian...I died. 1 Link to comment
mccartygirl November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I am a little late to the party but why does everyone hate Matt Davis? Alaric has always been one of my favs. I am so glad I am not the only one who likes the Bonnie and Enzo hookup. I love Enzo, he brings the hot. Link to comment
Cattitude November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I was under the impression that being a siphoner was an abomination in the witches eyes and therefore not worthy. Kai was psychopathic, but is revenge on his family was born from a desire to see them suffer from shunning him, passing him over for leadership and general treating him as less than. All the heretics were kicked out ouf their respective covens for this reason, and were living isolated lives until they met Lily, who took them in one by one. Questions like this bug me so I went on a rewatch and found where Jo tells Elena and Damon the history of the heretics. They are all indeed from the Gemini covan. Not only that but they were all also evil like Kai and were banished as a group so I guess Lily met them all at the same time. It begs the question what was Valerie really doing at the sanitorium? Maybe they were doing somekind of covert thing or working with the vampire who turned Lily. It seems in the Gemini covan when you get the recessive siphoning gene you are also evil. Other thing I found on the rewatch the whole reason for the prison world wasn't Lily but the heretics. They were on their way back to end the Gemini coven(just like Kai) but the coven beat them to the punch. Knowing evil Kai he probably purposely left that part out when he told Damon his mom's story. I also found more about the Gemini looking for the right episode. They are small and paranoid and located in Oregan. Jo's family was the head family but the coven like the one Davina leads on TO is multiracial. I still don't get the accents though b/c like with other covens on the show they all live in the same place which is in America. Of course I know as an old coven they were orginally from somewhere else but it seems clear they were in America long before the heretics got banished. I also wonder why some witches stay in covens and other like Bonnie are more a family line and not with a coven. If anyone else wants to see the scene about the heretics it is 06:18 at the very end of the episode. I have to wonder if Valerie was responsible for the dream with Jacob. The other Heretics said she was the worst headcase of them all, and I could see this whole "sweet, loving and gentle" thing she's doing as being part of a long con. They manage to take out Julian and then WHAM, here comes Valerie. We know vampires have the ability to manipulate dreams, especially when the target is particularly vulnerable. And if she's trying to recruit people to her side, she could do a lot worse than Stefan. I could so see this. As per my rewatch the heretics are like Kai and he was good at manipulation. I could so see Valerie doing this. She seems to want Stefan and don't think she is as nice as she appears. I was suspicious about the way she just let it slip to Caroline that Stefan and she had "secret" he didn't tell her. Link to comment
formerlyfreedom November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Let's stick to episode discussion, please. Alaric has a topic that you can take more detailed conversation to, and Matt Davis has been discussed in Small Talk as well. 1 Link to comment
Kaboom 2.0 November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 Finally got around to watching this. I just can't with the Caroline mystical pregnancy and it only JUST started. I guess as long as they don't look like the vampire spawn we got a glimpse of in last week's American Horror Story: Hotel I can try to tolerate it. I love when the two Salvatore brothers team up, they're stronger together than apart, and I am so hoping they take out their bitch mother. What a horrible person she is, each episode she appears in just seems to confirm my take on her. I still think Valerie is playing some kind of long con but no clue what she wants yet. I would give cash money to have Nora and Mary Louise just go away, die, whatever, they're the worst and I don't give a flying f*** about either of them, both of them, their relationship, everything. I wish Beau wasn't mute, would like to know more about him and he had some sweet chemistry with Julian in their few scenes together. FWIW the actor portraying Julian reminds me of Agent Ressler from The Blacklist and thank you to the kind poster that pointed out that Julian was also in Spartacus! I knew I had seen him before. :-) Have no idea who created the compelled human blood bag donation center at the high school but seeing it was creepy as hell. Eek. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 17, 2015 Author Share November 17, 2015 I love that Matt told Bonnie, "Hold on, I just have to do something really quickly before I go," only to see that his little side trip was just stabbing Damon in the neck with vervain. You know Matt enjoyed doing that! Link to comment
Anela November 17, 2015 Share November 17, 2015 The episode I just watched on-demand must have been last week's episode. I don't recall anything about pregnancy, or Caroline and Alaric. I was rolling my eyes within a few minutes, with their pushing as much information into the conversations to catch people up - and it's all insane. I can't believe the things they come up with. Link to comment
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