The Bullpen

[SSAHotchner]

Yeah, I saw that in the listing and then thought that maybe they wanted to be able to show both episodes of The Fisher King back to back, but it appears they're not showing The Fisher King at all. :(  Disappointing because my favorite scene in all of CM is Hotch washing the blood off of Elle's wall.

[Watermelon]

Dear A & E Scheduling Person,

 

Please stop airing CM episodes out of order. It is very jarring to go from Secrets and Lies to P911, if only because of Elle's hair. Kindly cease and desist from this practice at once.

 

Thank you,

Me

They air EVERYTHING out of order :(.  I record Dog the Bounty Hunter(Don't judge me, his sons are cute). and in a 3 hour period I can have seasons 2,4, and 8.

[normasm]

Did anyone see Shemar on Ellen? I'm not sure it's aired yet. Just curious if he has said anything about leaving at the end of this season.

[SSAHotchner]

I saw that he was going to be on Ellen, but Shemar is far from being a favorite of mine so I forgot and didn't bother to record it. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Snow Patrol and CM. Awesome

 

 

 

"Light up, light up, as if you have a choice....."

 

*holds up a Bic lighter*

[missmycat]

Not that I'm complaining, no not at all, but has anyone else noticed that CM's social media seems to be promoting Reid quite a bit lately.

[ForeverAlone]

Yes. I think they finally cottoned to the fact that Reid has a very passionate and devoted fanbase, and an increasingly pissed off one, because we felt he was ignored for other, lesser popular characters. *coughs*ActionBarbieJJ*coughs*

[zannej]

Too bad the promo department and the actual writing team don't always seem to agree on things. I don't expect the writers to start using Reid any more frequently. It's too late in the season for it now.

[MCatry]

Too bad the promo department and the actual writing team don't always seem to agree on things. I don't expect the writers to start using Reid any more frequently. It's too late in the season for it now.

I also think we won't see much of Reid along what's left for this season. The reaction just came too late. Like 'three years' too late.

Sometimes I read comments on people being 'happy' that their complaints have been addressed, but the fact is that what we saw as a new episode was filmed around two months earlier, planned at least four months earlier, and suggested somewhere around June or July. Hence, no complaint has any immediate impact.

The backlash peaked along season nine, but started a lot earlier (back in season seven, actually). It just kept increasing as the live ratings kept going down. I know many people would say 'what matters are the live +7 ratings, but the true is that having less live ratings means that less people really wants to watch the show so much they can't wait to record it and watch it later, so they will endure whatever commercial break (which you don't, while watching the episode from your DVR).

Nevertheless, ratings keep going down, and for some reason the CBS people decided to try to increase them by hiring new people, instead of checking which ones of the current cast had more potential to attract viewers, or at least to stop losing them. Instead of taking the opportunity to make more space for favourite characters, they did all they could to lose even more viewers, and on top of that they also decided to make more room for the character with the smaller fanbase. In sum,

- they hired someone new, to replace Prentiss, which only enraged the hardcore Prentiss fans and bored others, but also consumed screen time to explain who they were. Although I liked Blake and I don't mind Kate, they are unnecessary characters in a far-too-big ensemble.

- they got rid of very good writers just to save some money (which could have been saved anyway by not hiring a Prentiss replacement)

- they lost key people for the original concept, such as Bernero and Mirren.

- they allowed the new showrunner to change the concept of the show to something more like cop-standard type of show.

- they allowed the new creative team to change canon information of the show.

- they allowed the new creative team to increase the screen time of the unsub, killing not only the victims but also the suspense

- the allowed them to reduce the screen time of popular characters, such as Hotch and Reid

- they did their best to ignore the backlash, even when they knew the ratings were down

- they authorised the 200 episode.

I still don't get how a big network such as the CBS would allow what happened to this show for four years in a row.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

- they hired someone new, to replace Prentiss, which only enraged the hardcore Prentiss fans and bored others, but also consumed screen time to explain who they were. Although I liked Blake and I don't mind Kate, they are unnecessary characters in a far-too-big ensemble.

- they got rid of very good writers just to save some money (which could have been saved anyway by not hiring a Prentiss replacement)

 

From the Department of Can't Let Anything Go Ever, I'm not sure JT and then JLH being hired should be at the top of your list. Yes, the network insisted that someone be hired to replace Emily, and her fans took it out on Alex in particular. I know there has been some backlash against Kate as well, but IMO not to the degree there was against Blake. Don't get me wrong, I loved Emily to pieces, scattershot characterization and all, and I'm sorry she's gone, but it was never Prentiss who was the Golden Girl.

 

When I'm feeling cynical, which is seventy percent of the time, I think the griping about Blake gave Messer the excuse to do what she wanted to do anyway, which was shove JJ into the spotlight and keep her there, falling ratings and complaints from the viewers and cramming Reid and Hotch into the background be damned. Had the network stepped in and replaced her once it became clear that she was following the letter of their order rather than the spirit of it, they might have been able to hire a showrunner who knew their ass from a hole in the ground as to what made CM great in the past. I sincerely doubt that they wanted to get JT on the show only for her to be given basically nothing to work with, and that was Erica's - and the writers' - doing, not the network's. I hate to say that someone deserves to lose their job, but there you go.

 

I do think that network interference can kill a show just as much as it can help it thrive, but a little of it in the right place would have kept us from getting to this point. Unfortunately, its probably way too late to completely right the ship now. It doesn't make me happy, but it feels like fact.

[missmycat]

The problem is even though CM is down significantly in its live + same day ratings, it is still  doing rather  well when other ratings are factored in.I think I mentioned this once before but it happens to be the second most dvr recorded show on CBS second only to The Big Bang Theory.When these ratings are factored in CM was actually up a bit from last season. This according to a press release via CBS.

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2015/02/18/multi-platform-viewing-boost-cbs-prime-time-line-up-3-percent-over-2003-2004-season-9-percent-versus-last-year/364792/

 

Sadly this is probably one of the biggest reasons CBS didn't seem to have any problem with the direction EM and company have taken the show. And until it can be shown that CM indeed has lost a significant amount of viewers even after all ratings are factored in,for instance, NCIS LA is actually down more than 4 million viewers from last season,I don't see them doing much of anything about it.

 

Now we do know CBS can be persuaded by backlash because that is what bought the women back since the ratings themselves weren't hurt at all. Although I've got to wonder if CBS is really as in tune to the backlash from fans as much as they were back than. I can't help feeling a lot of it goes in one ear and out the other so to speak.

 

On the other hand if JJ has essentially been getting all this screen time/focus because of AJ Cook's contract negotiations at the end of season 8 than there may have been little CBS could do. Although I am still of the mindset that it was beyond ridiculous that they allowed AJ/JJ to be given the milestone episode of 200 and even worse allowed her so much screen time in it while other long time characters got next to nothing.

 

But now here is the big question. If there is indeed a season 11 AJC's contract will be up for renewal. So what indeed will the actress do to assure that she continues with this substantial amount of screen time/focus.And will CBS want to once again placate her which would mean another season of JJ yet again.Or would CBS do the smart thing and factor in all the backlash against this character and not be so willing to accommodate her this time around.

Edited February 21, 2015 by missmycat

[normasm]

Well, any backlash might produce its own backlash. TPTB parse the numbers any way it benefits them, so facing a tanking of this show may mean nothing to them if they envision the spinoff taking whatever they can't buy off in the original, or if they are launching something new at the deliberate expense of the ten-year veteran, because, well, nothing much lasts ten years anymore. I really don't think AJC (or KV) will factor in the overall this time, because everyone is UP. TG holds the key, MGG will probably follow his lead, as will JM. I believe SM will go for season 11 if they make it worth his while, but his fans need to make that known.

 

I really do think, if they "go for" a season 11, all bets are off, and they will be going for the endgame. If it's not renewed, all fans will feel cheated that they had no OUTRO, so I doubt they will go that way, at least not willingly.

[whitespace]

JM stated at fb a few weeks ago that he's up to it as long as they want him.

[JMO]

I think you're spot on in your analysis, Normasm.  And, whether or not the fans are excited about the spinoff, it sounds like the network is.  With that in the mix, and knowing the original is long in the tooth, the network may not be all that motivated to get into heavy negotiations with the cast.  My guess is that they'll make a one year offer, and the cast will get one opportunity to say 'yea' or nay'.  What is less clear to me is what they might do if certain of the cast (TG, JM and MGG, in particular) declined, since they (foolishly) seem to think the others can carry the show.

 

I know it's been widely speculated, but I just can't see AJC having the pull to demand a specific amount of screen time, nor does it seem consistent with the actress' personality.  I doubt it's happened before, and I really can't see it playing a role in the future.

[JMO]

Finding ways to put off working on something today, I found the original TWOP thread on CM.  As someone who came on board late (the summer between seasons 6 and 7), I found the early reactions to the show very interesting.  Some are completely consistent with the complaints we see about changes in recent years, and some indicate that the complaints of today are very similar to the complaints of ten years ago.  Here's a link, if you're interested.  Hope it works.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140329232532/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3128465-criminal-minds-you-are-not-tired-of-serial-killers-are-you/

[MCatry]

Finding ways to put off working on something today, I found the original TWOP thread on CM.  As someone who came on board late (the summer between seasons 6 and 7), I found the early reactions to the show very interesting.  Some are completely consistent with the complaints we see about changes in recent years, and some indicate that the complaints of today are very similar to the complaints of ten years ago.  Here's a link, if you're interested.  Hope it works.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140329232532/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3128465-criminal-minds-you-are-not-tired-of-serial-killers-are-you/

OMG!

I am so happy right now! This archive is precious!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[missmycat]

 

 

I know it's been widely speculated, but I just can't see AJC having the pull to demand a specific amount of screen time, nor does it seem consistent with the actress' personality.  I doubt it's happened before, and I really can't see it playing a role in the future.

I happen to agree with this. And had the actress asked for it outright she might very well have been turned down. So instead she and KV demanded something they knew full well CBS/ABC would refuse to give them such as a salary near or equal to that of JM and/or TG. I believe AJC had figured or at least hoped that the studio would want to offer them a compromise in lieu of the huge salary increases they were demanding. And of course that compromise turned out to be a raise, just no where near what they had demanded,but a long with that raise, a promise for a substantial amount of screen time and focus. AJ/JJ being the one who benefited  the most from it. And that is what I believe she wanted all along.   

[Droogie]

Finding ways to put off working on something today, I found the original TWOP thread on CM.  Here's a link, if you're interested.  Hope it works.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140329232532/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3128465-criminal-minds-you-are-not-tired-of-serial-killers-are-you/

...and thus my productive weekend is shot all to crap!

[JMO]

 

And of course that compromise turned out to be a raise, just no where near what they had demanded,but a long with that raise, a promise for a substantial amount of screen time and focus.

 

Fact?  Or your personal speculation?

[missmycat]

Fact?  Or your personal speculation?

My personal speculation of course.

But can you think of another reason why these actresses would ask for something that they both knew full well CBS/ABC would refuse to give them. If they hadn't  figured or at least hoped that tptb would want to offer them a compromise in lieu of what they were originally asking.

 

I'm quite sure stuff like this must go on a lot in this business where actors and actresses ask for things knowing they are not likely to get them, but hoping that tptb would want to make them a rather reasonable and attractive compromise. Which, at least imo, happened in the case of AJC's and KV's contract negotiations. 

[JMO]

Every negotation is a back-and-forth, whether it's for salary, or buying a house, or haggling over something in retail.  You either low-ball or high-ball, depending on your position (payor or payee), and expect things to fall in the middle.  So I wouldn't be at all surprised if their agents asked for more than expected, and settled for something less, in terms of dollars.  But that would have absolutely nothing to do with screen time.

[missmycat]

Every negotation is a back-and-forth, whether it's for salary, or buying a house, or haggling over something in retail.  You either low-ball or high-ball, depending on your position (payor or payee), and expect things to fall in the middle.  So I wouldn't be at all surprised if their agents asked for more than expected, and settled for something less, in terms of dollars.  But that would have absolutely nothing to do with screen time.

JMO, I will concede to this, because as I said I had been merely speculating as to what I believe went on. But if indeed tptb willingly gave all this screen time/ focus to the actress without her asking or demanding it, I've got to say it pisses me off even more. Because that would mean they also willingly allowed that once in a life time milestone episode, one that isn't likely to be seen again where CM is concerned, over to a character played by an actress that is only second from the bottom when it comes to the billing of the cast. Not to mention she also happens to have the smallest following on CM's socially media among the cast members who participate in it.

And even more inexcusable on the part of tptb was allowing her such a huge substantial amount of focus in it, over 20 minutes which was more than half the damn episode.While long time characters like Reid and Morgan didn't even get 5 minutes.

 

So quite frankly I am now at a lost when it comes to CBS's behavior when it comes to AJ/JJ. At least it was a bit easier for me to except, even though I still didn't like it, when I believed it was largely because the actress had asked/demanded more screen time/ focus for her character.

[vanarnd1]

Finding ways to put off working on something today, I found the original TWOP thread on CM.  As someone who came on board late (the summer between seasons 6 and 7), I found the early reactions to the show very interesting.  Some are completely consistent with the complaints we see about changes in recent years, and some indicate that the complaints of today are very similar to the complaints of ten years ago.  Here's a link, if you're interested.  Hope it works.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140329232532/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3128465-criminal-minds-you-are-not-tired-of-serial-killers-are-you/

Thank you for posting this. Just the first page of this alone was worth it, when people were saying that CM would be canceled because it aired against Veronica Mars and Lost.  It is funny how things turn out...

[normasm]

This may not be apropos (sorry my word generator isn't working at 3:30 while I'm sick), but didn't KV also have a role, and presumably a contract for the spinoff with Forrest Whittaker? It could be that she has had a bit more attention in the past few years because of that, and it's tough to be wallflowered after seeming to be indispensable. Personally, I think the sharing of Garcia between the two shows linked them together with the weakest link. I can't see how they could spin off Garcia on this new one, but maybe they can spin JJ?

[Old Dog]

Finding ways to put off working on something today, I found the original TWOP thread on CM.  As someone who came on board late (the summer between seasons 6 and 7), I found the early reactions to the show very interesting.  Some are completely consistent with the complaints we see about changes in recent years, and some indicate that the complaints of today are very similar to the complaints of ten years ago.  Here's a link, if you're interested.  Hope it works.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140329232532/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3128465-criminal-minds-you-are-not-tired-of-serial-killers-are-you/

Vastly entertained to see all the calls to get rid of the vapid, generic blonde!

[MCatry]

From the Department of Can't Let Anything Go Ever, I'm not sure JT and then JLH being hired should be at the top of your list. Yes, the network insisted that someone be hired to replace Emily, and her fans took it out on Alex in particular. I know there has been some backlash against Kate as well, but IMO not to the degree there was against Blake. Don't get me wrong, I loved Emily to pieces, scattershot characterization and all, and I'm sorry she's gone, but it was never Prentiss who was the Golden Girl.

Actually, the list was not organised by the relative importance I assigned to each item. I agree with you that Prentiss was never the Golden Girl.

My point is that the CBS knew they had a large cast before, with two big names, three profilers and two side characters, and probably when both Cook and Brewster returned they though those two girls were more important than the male cast (which is dumb, but lets assume that was one reason). So they increased the size of the main cast, from five to seven, and instead of shriking it back to at least six when Brewster walked away (so any member of the cast would have more screen time) they decided to hire JT, and once she was out of the picture, and we all though they would leave the position vacant, again they hired someone else. With seven members of the team, and trying to exploit the fanbase of each character, centric episodes popped up everywhere, and in each one of them at least three characters would be sorely neglected (and yes, more often than not, they were Hotch and Reid)

I know most of the viewers in this forum think the main issue is that JJ has been having more screen time than anyone else, and I am not only agree, but I know by fact that that is true. Still, if she would take ten minutes out of 42, including shared scenes with other members of the cast, it wouldn't be nearly as bad if twenty of the other thirty something minutes would be dedicated to scenes with the rest of the cast, instead of the unsub. This show has been JJ+unsub+victims, and some minutes of the rest, which makes the JJ season even harder to deal with.

Nevertheless, I am still puzzled by the attitude of CBS executives.

They have two men with very high salaries such as Mantegna and Gibson, and the CBS people have said several times that if they don't work out their contracts there is no CM.

They have another two men which started with low salaries and they increased their payments because they acknowledged their importance for the fanbase of the show. Both Moore and Gubler have now also rather high salaries.

And then you have two women which according to the news they were very close to be pulled out of CM because the CBS refused to give them what they wanted for a salary increase.

And after all that money talk they are ok with Messer making the show about JJ, and with Garcia having a bigger role than the one she used to play?

I know the CBS don't care about shows: they care about the money they can generate, which is linked to the people that actually watches the shows they produce.

So why don't they react and protect their investments?

It's so ridiculous as if a sport team buys four stars, and then allow the coach to let them watch the game from the replacement bench.

Edited February 22, 2015 by MCatry

[zannej]

On a complete side note, I turned the TV on and A&E was showing the Replicator episode. I decided to watch it because the first time I was interrupted and missed parts.

I realized that the medical examiner who did the autopsy on Strauss was the same one in Nelson's Sparrow who did the autopsy on Gideon.

[normasm]

Yes, i love when MEs especially repeat. I liked her.

[spinner33]

MCatry said: It's so ridiculous as if a sport team buys four stars, and then allow the coach to let them watch the game from the replacement bench.

 

This is my hockey team, under a previous coach!  Thanks goodness that asshat is gone! 

[SSAHotchner]

JM stated at fb a few weeks ago that he's up to it as long as they want him.

Yeah, and why wouldn't he be? He gets paid a whopping salary even when he's barely present in an episode. He's got plenty of other irons in the fire and CM gives him plenty of exposure on social networking sites. 

[JMO]

Slowly working my way through the early days of CM on TWOP.  It's interesting to see the evolution of both the show and the fandom.  This was the point at which the writers told the fans who the characters were. I'll be equally interested to discover the turning point---i.e., the point at which the fans feel like they know the characters well enough to tell the writers if they are writing 'in character' or not.  As of mid-season two, the writers are safe.

 

It's  also interesting to see that some savvy fans noted their enjoyment of the slow release of character detail, and its integration into the story line, early on.  They applauded the show for not devoting full episodes to any one character's personal development, well before it began to happen.

 

As a major Reid fan, I'm also tickled to see the evolution from calling him 'the geek' to 'hot'-----or, more correctly, 'the hot geek'.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

As a major Reid fan, I'm also tickled to see the evolution from calling him 'the geek' to 'hot'-----or, more correctly, 'the hot geek'.

 

 

Posted Oct 13, 2005 @ 7:02 AM

I find myself actually watching this show and, um, looking forward to it. Since I forsook Lost I haven't had anything on Wednesdays, and I find myself drawn to this show. I blame Mandy. And that beautiful creature they're trying to pass of as a geeky genius.

 

;-)

[JMO]

Was that your post, CoStar?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Was that your post, CoStar?

 

Heh, no. I actually didn't start posting about CM until way late in the game, so you have to go through a lot of the thread before you start seeing my posts there. I was watching, but I was obsessed with another show at the time and dedicating a lot of my online forum time to talking about that instead.

[Danielg342]

MCatry said: It's so ridiculous as if a sport team buys four stars, and then allow the coach to let them watch the game from the replacement bench.

This is my hockey team, under a previous coach! Thanks goodness that asshat is gone!

The Blues? I seem to remember Mike Keenan doing stuff like that (particularly to Dale Hawerchuk) in St. Louis.

Nevertheless, I am still puzzled by the attitude of CBS executives.

They have two men with very high salaries such as Mantegna and Gibson, and the CBS people have said several times that if they don't work out their contracts there is no CM.

They have another two men which started with low salaries and they increased their payments because they acknowledged their importance for the fanbase of the show. Both Moore and Gubler have now also rather high salaries.

And then you have two women which according to the news they were very close to be pulled out of CM because the CBS refused to give them what they wanted for a salary increase.

And after all that money talk they are ok with Messer making the show about JJ, and with Garcia having a bigger role than the one she used to play?

I know the CBS don't care about shows: they care about the money they can generate, which is linked to the people that actually watches the shows they produce.

So why don't they react and protect their investments?

It's so ridiculous as if a sport team buys four stars, and then allow the coach to let them watch the game from the replacement bench.

I know few agree with me but it's my belief that CBS is making this Jennifer Love Hewitt's show, so as she goes, so does the show. I don't if this means that CBS would be willing to part with other members of the cast, but I think having Hewitt around might make them "think about it", at the very least. CBS made a big deal abot her hire, and this season we're already seeing an actual, defined "character story" for her character (Meg's online difficulties), so at least it seems like they're trying, right off the bat, to make her a prominent member of the cast. Furthermore, she has carried shows before (including The Ghost Whisperer on CBS), so I can see CBS at least thinking they have someone who can carry the show for a few more seasons at least. I just can't see CBS hiring Hewitt to appear for only one or even two seasons.

This could be good news for JJ, since I can see AJ Cook perhaps being positioned as Hewitt's sidekick on a female-led team. Or, it could be bad news for JJ since Hewitt could be there to tell her, "this still isn't your show". I guess we'll see what happens during the off-season.

I also think that, with the spin-off, I can see CBS wanting to see how the two shows work together next season before making a decision on "the mothership". If the spin-off fails, then CBS might say CM can have a Season 13. Otherwise, they may cap CM at 12 so that the spinoff can "take over" for the parent show and give the parent show a proper send-off.

Regardless, I think S12 is a pretty safe bet, all things considered.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

So. I'm about thirty pages in on the old thread (I love insomnia. Not.) and it's very interesting to read the reactions of people seeing the show for the first time. There is, as has been noted, much love for Reid, not much for JJ, and Elle and Gideon are getting mixed reviews. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. I'm particularly amused at the posts from one person who says that their mother is/was afraid of Hotch and thinks he is 'scary". Considering that the episode being referred to is usually L.D.S.K., I can kind of see her point. ;-)

 

Two things, though.

 

I was annoyed by a post griping about Reid's football date with JJ, but not for the reason you'd think. The post said something to the effect of "the show has someone whose sexuality could be ambiguous, and they choose to throw him at a random girl to 'prove' that he's straight." Let me preface this by saying that I have a similar issue with a portion of the Supernatural fandom, who will swear on a stack of the religious tome of your choice that Dean Winchester is gay, despite there being not an ounce of proof in canon that this is true. It would be different if they were saying it about Morgan, and I'll get to him in a second, but they aren't. Isn't it better for the geeky, too-smart-for-his-own-good guy with the sometimes weird hair to defy the expectations, not conform to them? IMO, yes, it definitely is.

 

As for Morgan, I notice there was quite a bit of Morgan/Garcia shipping going on, which is perfectly fine. What is less fine to me is the various complaints that the show will never "go there" with them, because I'm pretty sure I know what they were getting at and I don't care for it. Even if I wanted to see the team dating one another, it's a real irk to have it implied that it's an 'ism' if it doesn't happen in certain cases. *hops off soapbox*

 

Still, I'm feeling simultaneously nostalgic and bummed that I missed out on a lot of great insights the first time around. Shall keep reading later.

[Old Dog]

 

I was annoyed by a post griping about Reid's football date with JJ, but not for the reason you'd think. The post said something to the effect of "the show has someone whose sexuality could be ambiguous, and they choose to throw him at a random girl to 'prove' that he's straight." Let me preface this by saying that I have a similar issue with a portion of the Supernatural fandom, who will swear on a stack of the religious tome of your choice that Dean Winchester is gay, despite there being not an ounce of proof in canon that this is true. It would be different if they were saying it about Morgan, and I'll get to him in a second, but they aren't. Isn't it better for the geeky, too-smart-for-his-own-good guy with the sometimes weird hair to defy the expectations, not conform to them? IMO, yes, it definitely is.

 

Jeff Davis did intend originally for Reid to be bisexual but CBS put the kibosh on that. They probably pushed for the conformity of him crushing on JJ.

[spinner33]

There is a lot of homophobia in TV and in Hollywood, especially when it comes to showing a non-straight character in a positive light.  "OMG you can't make them heroes!  The kids will think it's cool, and they'll all turn GAAAAAAY!  It will be the end of marriage and of civilization!!!!!"  It's gotten better over the last decade, but it still has a long way to go. 

 

The problem too is that society questions the sexuality of any single man who dresses well, doesn't punch people in the mouth on a regular basis, and doesn't constantly brag about his sexual conquests.  Like the same way they question the sexuality of any woman who is 40 and single and has cats.   Not fair.  Not right.  But that's what happens.  Don't be different, or you will be singled out! 

 

Daniel said: "The Blues? I seem to remember Mike Keenan doing stuff like that (particularly to Dale Hawerchuk) in St. Louis."

Actually it's the Washington Capitals.  Hey, but the Blues aren't a bad team. 

[Russet29]

There is a lot of homophobia in TV and in Hollywood, especially when it comes to showing a non-straight character in a positive light.  "OMG you can't make them heroes!  The kids will think it's cool, and they'll all turn GAAAAAAY!  It will be the end of marriage and of civilization!!!!!"  It's gotten better over the last decade, but it still has a long way to go. 

As a former Glee fan it's strange to read this. I no longer watch the show but I read the reviews on AVClub because they're hilarious and that show has the opposite problem. All gay people are wonderful and have no flaws. It's like the gay equivalent of the "magical negro" embarrassment. I actually know gay people who hate the show and think Glee sets a terrible example because the gay characters are in no way three dimensional and are morally superior to straight people. Essentially they can do no wrong.

 

On the issue of the network's interference with Reid, I find it odd that they felt by making Reid go on a date with a woman he would no longer be bisexual. Do they not understand the term bisexual? The definition is in the name so one would think people with college degrees would be able to figure it out. I honestly don't care either way but I do think it's a good point that the show went in an unexpected direction with him.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

There is a lot of homophobia in TV and in Hollywood, especially when it comes to showing a non-straight character in a positive light.  "OMG you can't make them heroes!  The kids will think it's cool, and they'll all turn GAAAAAAY!  It will be the end of marriage and of civilization!!!!!"  It's gotten better over the last decade, but it still has a long way to go. 

 

Is that really true anymore, though? I remember back in the eighties when it was revealed that Rock Hudson had contracted the AIDS virus, and before that a joke that he and Jim Nabors were having a secret affair turned into a rumor that spread, causing them to stop speaking to one another. But that was thirty years ago.

 

As for Reid, it isn't so much that I would have minded him turning out to be other than completely straight. Gay, not gay, bi, what-have-you. God knows I laugh my head off at old episodes of Frasier when people automatically assume that he and/or Niles must be gay.because they're over-educated snobs with rarefied tastes in almost everything. But again, if they wanted to do something not stereotypical, they'd have made more traditional alpha males like Morgan or Hotch gay. That subverts expectations. Hell, it would have subverted expectations if Spencer had gone on that date with Elle, who was not the blonde, blue-eyed archetype. And who probably would have not spent so much time rolling her eyes at him in general. Reid as I perceive him is straight. Some people are going to see him differently, and that's fine. I also think he's the sort who would fall in love with a soul first, a gender second. YMMV.

[spinner33]

Pretty sure homophobia is still a thing, unfortunately.  As a single woman with cats, I can vouch that people do make assumptions.  Attitudes are changing in Hollywood and on TV, but it's not equal, not yet.  Not until a character can be non-straight and it's a non-issue.  We've come a long way in 30 years, but there is a long way to go, to be sure!! =) 

 

As a Hotch/Reid shipper, I could definitely get behind having one of the alpha males on the show being non-straight!   I found it very amusing too that the CBS suits didn't realize that as a bisexual man, Reid could find JJ attractive, and that wouldn't change him being bisexual.  

[ForeverAlone]

It would be nice to think that Reid is the type to fall in love with a soul first, but the reality on this show is far different. Until Maeve came along, Reid was like practically every other straight guy out there: attracted to conventional beauty alone, and it didn't matter if he was truly compatible with them or attracted to their mind. Do you honestly think he would have been drawn to JJ, Lila or Austin if they were plain looking? Oh hell no, in my opinion. Yeah he wasn't in love with any of them, but there was never an indication before Maeve that anything besides physical beauty could attract him.

Edited February 24, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[normasm]

Reid was never in love with any of those girls, he was just attracted to them. He did fall in love with Maeve's soul or mind, or heart or whatever, and without seeing her declared her "the most beautiful girl in the world to me." 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Do you honestly think he would have been drawn to JJ, Lila or Austin if they were plain looking? Oh hell no, in my opinion. Yeah he wasn't in love with any of them, but there was never an indication before Maeve that anything besides physical beauty could attract him.

 

 

Reid was never in love with any of those girls, he was just attracted to them. He did fall in love with Maeve's soul or mind, or heart or whatever, and without seeing her declared her "the most beautiful girl in the world to me." 

 

ForeverAlone, I think its slightly different in each case. With JJ, she and Reid worked together, so he saw her every day and they had a relationship already, just not a romantic one. We never even find out what happened when they went to that game, and then she met Will and that was the end of it. Personally, I think he's better off in that case, since half the time I'm not even sure JJ likes Spencer, much less sees him as a viable "donor", as per that discussion back in the day..

 

With Austin, Morgan had been prodding Reid to be more conversational, and I definitely think he thought she was attractive,,but I'm not sure it would have gone anywhere. And that's not even bringing up the fact that had the episode been written differently, the UnSub would have killed her before the team could arrive to save her. We see that she called him at the end of the ep sounding okay, but character-wise it may have given her pause.

 

And normasm is correct, Reid never saw Maeve until just before she was killed, and he even declined to let Garcia show him her picture. What he fell in love with was what he knew of her over the phone, and you'll note that Alex seemed very surprised when she realized he didn't even know what Maeve looked like. When he told Rossi that he wasn't letting himself sleep after she died, it was because he was afraid that giving in to the fantasy of dancing with her would cause him to be lost forever. And that wasn't in reference to her looks.

 

All of this is to say that I don't think Reid has ever been half as shallow as I am, for instance. Sure, looks might be part of it, but going on looks alone the fact that he never tried to see what might happen if he asked Elle or Emily for a date indicates (to me) that just esthetics wouldn't be enough for him. Hell, I thought Alex was much more attractive than JJ, but Alex was A) married and B) possibly too old for him. That whole "not being such a pill" thing weighs hard in her favor, though. Also, at the end of Lila's episode, Reid asks Morgan if there was one woman he'd thought of being with for more than one night. Morgan's semi-irritation when he says, "What, are you calling me a dog?" amuses me because that was exactly the image Derek projected at the time IMO. Not that there's anything wrong with thatSeinfeld, but that's never been who Reid is.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[SSAHotchner]

Add to all of that that we never even see him have a conversation with a female outside of the work environment. And that most of the time the writers show both males and females reacting to him with eye rolling or taking a step back as if he's annoying or someone to be afraid of or uncomfortable around. I'd just love for once for someone to respond to his genius with genuine admiration instead of reacting as if he had a disease. It's not only insulting to Reid but to women for them to assume that no women would be attracted to intelligence. Brains are sexy. 

[ForeverAlone]

Hey I said that Reid was never in love with those previous women. I am just saying that Reid was written as a typical straight dude drawn to conventionally beautiful women before they wrote Maeve. Why else would he have been attracted to JJ or even Lila? It is not like they had anything in common or JJ seemed to view him as an attractive man in any capacity. Yeah okay, JJ called him by a stupid nickname that he seemed to like, but that didn't mean she was attracted to him in the slightest. I mean that very same episode where Reid asks JJ out is the first time we see her looking at him like he is some freak and he sees her look of semi disdain and responds accordingly. Contrast that with Elle treating him with respect in that very same episode, and yet he never wanted to ask Elle out.

Edited February 24, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Hey I said that Reid was never in love with those previous women. I am just saying that Reid was written as a typical straight dude drawn to conventionally beautiful women before they wrote Maeve. Why else would he have been attracted to JJ or even Lila? It is not like they had anything in common or JJ seemed to view him as an attractive man in any capacity.

 

I suppose I can concede the point about Reid being attracted to JJ, but giving it some more thought it seems a bit out of character for him. Considering what we learn about him in Elephant's Memory WRT Alexa Lisbon, you would think that JJ and her mean girl tendencies would make him walk a wide circle around her as far as anything like dating went. I would prefer to think that Spencer would rather not be treated like crap, even at his most insecure and self-doubting.  Maybe that's why they only went out on one date. ;-)

[ForeverAlone]

I would like to think more of Reid, but I can't ignore the canon writing. The writers went with the obvious when it came to Reid's crushes in the early years- pretty and blond. I think the reason JJ and Reid never went on a second date, is because she had zero desire to be with him. I mean, do you think she would have gone out with him at all if he hadn't had box seat for the Redskins? That's why Gideon gave Reid those tickets- he knew that JJ wouldn't say no to THAT particular offer, but she wouldn't say yes to any other offer. But I can't see her viewing it as anything but two pals hanging out. And yeah, after she gave him that look when he was talking earlier in the police station, you would like to think he wouldn't have wanted to date her. But yet he did for some reason. So all I can think of is that he thought she was beautiful (and she was), because it's not like they had connected on any intellectual level. I can't even see what those two would talk about that didn't revolve around work. I don't think they have any overlapping interests. 

[Droogie]

I thnk Reid was/is like many other red-blooded males: he liked JJ because she was very pretty and nice to him, and he had very limited experience up to that point. Same with Lila -- she was pretty, and a little sexy, and she came on to him. At that moment, in the pool, he was overcome. Had it progressed, I can see Reid growing tired of her. She was vapid, but at the outset, Little G-Man was doing all of his thinking for him. With Austin, he was possibly smitten by the fact that he used a "line," and it worked.

With Maeve, it was a meeting of the minds, which seems to be the way to Reid's heart.

[normasm]

FA, why is it bad that Reid is attracted to pretty girls? There's nothing wrong with that, especially when one is so shy he never follows up on these attractions. The only reason he took JJ to the game (and do we even know that they went together? No...) is because Gideon gifted him the tickets and pushed him.

He was so engaged with Maeve's mind and personality that it didn't matter to him what she looked like.

The other salient point in this conversation is that Reid was 24 with the JJ thing and the Lila thing, what, 27 when Austin came around? Being 31 when he fell for Maeve may make all the difference.