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Wilowy

By Wilowy
in Criminal Minds

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

Re: Penelope...

 

I'm not thinking that she doesn't feel justified and maybe even proud regarding the part she played in saving Spencer's life. What I think she's having issue with is that she shot to kill, to end a human life, full stop. 

 

It doesn't matter in what service, and/or that it achieved a greater good. I think her prob is going to be that she had it in herself to actually pull that trigger. 

 

Now I, or you, or JJ, or any number of other humans may be fine with the justification. I know I fucking would. But she's... Garcia. And I think that's where her difficulty lies. Her pacifism. I've no doubt she will resolve it, but I do think it's worth exploring, and I'm glad they are going there.

 

Brought this over here because I wanted to run the numbers as it relates to the women of the BAU, past and present, and whether or not they'd have had issues with shooting the guy who was intending to kill Reid in his hospital bed.

 

Elle - its practically self-explanatory to leave it at mentioning her name. Whatever her feelings for Spencer were, romantic or otherwise, she'd have drawn a bead and pulled the trigger, then stepped over the body to make sure Reid was okay.

 

Emily - took a beating to protect Reid in Minimal Loss which could have resulted in him being hurt a lot worse, so she probably wouldn't have lost a whole  lot of sleep over it either.

 

Alex - a slightly harder call, but I like to think she wouldn't have hesitated to take the shot. My version of her wouldn't, anyway.

 

JJ - my ambivalence towards her aside, this iteration off JJ would have shot the guy, then single-handedly healed Reid's wound through her Messer-created mystical mojo alone. (That might or might not be facetiousness.)

 

Yes, Garcia has always been the "soft" one, and normally I have no issue with that, since God knows we only need one Steroid!JJ at the time. But there's a difference between soft and being gooshy. This upcoming business is gooshy.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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Droogie
Droogie

I adored Hotch.  I think he was stoic and honorable and felt as though the weight of the world was on his shoulders.  And as Reid is my favorite character, it was always dear to me, how Hotch never le

Danielg342
Danielg342

They're called "normal clothes", and, yeah, I miss that too.

JMO
JMO

The discussion about the upcoming 'Derek', and the promo for that episode brought me back to our prior two agent kidnappings.  It seems like this current set of writers has become progressively more v

Wilowy

Wilowy

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Ha, I just got this image of zannej standing up and going "So, Erica, you gonna keep fucking shit up, or finally give us our show back?" :D

 

I'll definitely be there. I've got some things to ask and I want to cover it for my site. I know Joe will probably want to talk about his friend Meshach, but I do wonder what AJ and Erica will have to say. 

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zannej

zannej

LOL. Matthew actually looks sort of like a cardboard cutout there. Very standard pose and he's the only one looking at the camera.

 

I think I would be tempted to ask Erica if they will now actually have a quick fact sheet or something for continuity given that there have clearly been some major continuity errors on the show in the past few seasons.

 

I also wanted to ask about Reid's car, but I think she would probably not remember that he had one. Too bad Joe wasn't on the show then, he likes classic cars and the Volvo Amazon was pretty awesome.

Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

I loved Jennifer Love Hewitt as the new agent!  Compared to the underwritten, underused Jeanne Triplehorn, she was alive, involved, and absolutely perfect with the rest of the team.  I'm really looking forward to seeing more of her,

 

Fixed that for you, Lostinthehouse. ;-)

 

And pro tip, Messer initially didn't want to hire Hewitt either, so unless Erica really has done a total one-eighty and decided to give the new person a chance, you have Kate being shoved into the background to look forward to. I figured I'd warn you as a courtesy, even though the bitching aimed at JT is part of what almost soured me on JLH before she got here. :-)

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
Danielg342

Danielg342

Fixed that for you, Lostinthehouse. ;-)

 

And pro tip, Messer initially didn't want to hire Hewitt either, so unless Erica really has done a total one-eighty and decided to give the new person a chance, you have Kate being shoved into the background to look forward to. I figured I'd warn you as a courtesy, even though the bitching aimed at JT is part of what almost soured me on JLH before she got here. :-)

Doubt it. With someone with the star power of Jennifer Love Hewitt, Erica Messer won't be able to get away with that. If she even tried to shove Kate to the background, you can bet Hewitt will make a stink, threaten to leave and CBS will have to make a choice between Hewitt and Messer. Guess who they'll pick?

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Danielg342

Danielg342

For this year and maybe next, I could buy that, and I respect that Hewitt is differing to the show's older stars instead of trying to push them aside right away. However, I don't think she'll accept being nothing but a cipher for her entire career on CM- I'm sure she (and CBS) brought her on so that she could eventually be the show's lead when the time is right, and she'd want to be developed slowly. Thus, I don't think Messer can get away with underutilizing her for too long, because I'm sure Hewitt (like all actors) won't like it- only that Hewitt actually will have sway in that department.

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JMO

JMO

I'd gotten the impression that it was the fact that she didn't have to carry the show that attracted JLH.   She may have long hours when she's working, but there's a lot of down time between takes.  If she brings her infant to the set, as I suspect she does, she gets plenty of time to interact.  And she doesn't have to work every day.  For a new mother, that's a sweet schedule. 

 

If the show lasts long enough, she may feel differently about things when her child is older.  But I'd be surprised if she was clamoring for scads of screen time right now. 

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zannej

zannej

Well, we know from the premiere episode that they are not being shy with her screentime. From everything Erica said about JLH, I got the impression that she's the shiny new toy and I think she may even have replaced JJ as Erica's favorite female.

 

As evidenced from the premiere we also saw that Reid *did* get short changed-- but that might be partially since I think Matthew was working on another project and wasn't there. Plus he's woefully underused in most episodes that Erica writes. She just doesn't know how to do his dialog justice.

 

I really think they need to find a good intelligent writer who really gets Reid's voice to come up with the dialog for him in any episode written by Erica, Kim, Janine, and Rick.

 

I didn't get to go to the chat thing-- how did it go?

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

Doubt it. With someone with the star power of Jennifer Love Hewitt, Erica Messer won't be able to get away with that. If she even tried to shove Kate to the background, you can bet Hewitt will make a stink, threaten to leave and CBS will have to make a choice between Hewitt and Messer. Guess who they'll pick?

 

Well, maybe not, but OTOH JLH isn't exactly a mega-star. She's not Meryl Streep. She isn't even Amanda Seyfried, who's got five projects either in the planning stages, filming, or in post-production. Her main claim to fame is The Ghost Whisperer and maybe Party of Five, and they ended in 2010 and 1999 respectively. In Hollywood, star power is based on "What have you done lately?" and "How much money did it make?, especially for actresses.

 

I don't know that it would come to all that. JLH seems to know that she's low man on the pole for now, and it doesn't seem as though she's looking for the big responsibility of being the show's lead. And I'm sure she's not looking to bring any ugliness into the mix. 

 

I don't necessarily think that Jennifer intends to turn anything into a pissing contest, just to be clear. What I do think is that Erica Messer is not unlike a parent that's obvious in having a favorite child. Up until now, again IMO, that favorite child has been JJ. If Kate supplants her in that capacity, I might get some schadenfreude out of it because I think Jennifer is a better actress than AJ. But it won't make me happy, because this is supposed to be an ensemble show, not the Whatever Character's Hour. Kate getting so much focus in  the premiere gives me a bit of pause, but if Erica decides to put the favoritism aside and be a professional instead, I might learn to forgive the disrespectful way she treated JT.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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Wilowy

Wilowy

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I think it's a bit extreme, zannej, to say Reid got short-changed. He had firsties with Callahan, and got everyone back on track, and figured out the horse thing. I'm not saying I don't always want MORE of him, just that it was a really good teamisode, and I don't think it's an indicator that he got or will get shafted. 

 

Love Hewitt isn't A-list, that's true, but she's made it abundantly clear that she's in Moonves' lap. I expect she'll get whatever she wants from her tenure on the show, I just don't see any malevolence in her. As others have said, time will tell. 

 

As far as AJ goes, I get almost a sense of relief from her. Like "Oh yay, maybe I don't have to be so tense now." If JLH's influence has the effect of relaxing everyone a skosh, I'm cool with that. 

zannej

zannej

Oh, I know Reid got to be the first one interacting with Kate, but that was more about exposition about her character. Yes, he did figure out the horse thing, but other than that, he didn't really get to do or say much. Of all of the team members, he had the least dialog and the least to contribute. I think he actually had less screentime than the various unsubs. So I still feel he was shortchanged. 

 

He seemed almost withdrawn and disappeared for large chunks of the episode. There was something off about it and I felt he was underused considering his potential. It's reminding me of season 6 all over again. I hope it was just this episode and that they won't have Kate dominating so much in other episodes.

 

They really need to cut back on the unsub scenes. We could have done without the one guy stroking the very fake looking legs. Less is more in that case.

 

I liked how in earlier episodes of the show they implied a lot of things or there were things in shadow. They could have shown the shadow of the leg or the shape while it was still wrapped up.

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Wilowy

Wilowy

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I've wanted to slap Gideon all day. From his rudeness to John Blackwolf, to his commands that border on bullying Spencer: "Let's go. Reid. Now. Now. Reid now." when Spencer's just trying to talk to Lila, not once, but twice... to his asking Garcia "How could you be so stupid?" humiliating her in front of everyone like she's a fucking dumbass, which hello yes, she made a mistake but then she actually FOUND the guy... 

 

His disrespect, dismissiveness, and rudeness to his fellow agents has always rubbed me the wrong way, but today I full on wanted to kick his ass. Ever since Mandy said that shit about the show I've been looking at Gideon differently. I just don't have the patience for him any more. I don't believe him as a character any more, and he's no longer a hero to me. He's just a guy who throws out some insight and then freaks out while the rest of the team figures everything out.

 

Can I just say though, that a whole day of Elle is hella awesome? 

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

Can I just say though, that a whole day of Elle is hella awesome? 

 

You may absolutely say that, and I was going to mention that it was doubly aggravating for Gideon to have snarled at Garcia about how stupid she is when it was his dumb ass that decided to call a press conference. I wonder now and then, because I think about this show way too much, if things would have been different if he had owned his part in what happened to Elle, if she would have fallen apart at such an alarming rate. ION just finished showing P911, and she was very clearly wobbly despite her insistence that she needed to return to work.  I'm not talking about the thing with William Lee, because I'm bloody-minded enough to not hold that against her, but if Gideon had been a damn grown-ass man and apologized for almost causing her death, things might have turned out better for her.

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zannej

zannej

Gideon justified that it was ok that he almost got Elle killed because the guy left a fingerprint and they were able to discover who he was. So in his mind, the ends justified the means. He might have felt a little different had Elle died. I also think there was some denial going on. He was all wringing his hands saying she would understand.

 

I admit I'm still puzzled as to why the Randall decided to go after Elle when it was JJ who gave the press release-- but I'm guessing that he didn't have access to JJ. The thing is, how did he know that Elle went home? Did he have surveillance going on all of their homes? And how did he get in?

 

Even though Gideon acted like a child quite a few times, I think it showed that he was human. He was someone deeply flawed who made mistakes and didn't apologize. I still find the character less reprehensible than Mandy in some ways though.

 

My feelings on Gideon are sort of like Mandy's mood swings. I'm sort of bipolar about it. In some ways I loved the character because of how he cared about Reid and the fact that he was interesting. But in others I can't stand him because he was hit or miss with the acting, he behaved like a brat, and he sometimes treated Reid and others like crap.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

Well, Randall Garner had been stalking the team for quite a while, and got all of their personal information after hacking the FBI's computers via Garcia connecting to them via a wireless connection, so I could buy that he knew where Elle's home was. Maybe he overheard the team in their offices, or it was just a stroke of luck- calculated luck, since he probably knew that by setting up Elle she'd likely not get any sleep and would likely be the first one to go home.

As for Gideon- I separate the character from the actor, and I still think he's one of the most compelling characters I've ever seen. I find it a complete pity that we only got two seasons of the guy, but I guess, given how the other characters have evolved into roteness, less is likely more in this case. I tend to prefer S1 Gideon to later Gideon since earlier on he wasn't as melodramatic (in fact, the team felt more “real” earlier on), but I've always liked the character.

Furthermore, though I didn't like how Mandy Patinkin handled it, I understood why he left. Despite the fact I still think the cases were handled well in S2, it was in S2 when the cases were predominantly against women with the show becoming formulaic...it was a complete 180 from S1. S3 was pretty much more of the same, so I could understand if he looked at the script and changed his mind about participating. I just wish he was more professional about it.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

I admit I'm still puzzled as to why the Randall decided to go after Elle when it was JJ who gave the press release-- but I'm guessing that he didn't have access to JJ. The thing is, how did he know that Elle went home? Did he have surveillance going on all of their homes? And how did he get in?

 

zaneej, when Elle is in surgery, Anderson tells Hotch that Garner broke in through the back door and was waiting for her, but it's never made entirely clear how he knew she'd be there or why he went after her.

 

As for Gideon, they showed Elle's last episode on ION this evening, and when Lee's lawyer arrives and they have to let him go, Jason takes her aside when she starts to spin out, and he looks right at her and says she should go get some air. Not a word about it's his fault or that he's responsible for her fast, brutal collapse. It's Reid who says that he himself should have done something or told somebody how very much not okay she was. Would it have turned out better if Gideon had done something? Hell, I don't know, but I don't see how it could have been worse. I even got a little misty when she walked out of the bullpen with her bag over her shoulder and said, "Goodbye, Elle."

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

I watch the early episodes on ION and A&E all the time, and when they try to switch over to the later seasons, I say, "Oh, crap!" and watch something else. There are really only a handful of episodes from season 6 on that I consider worth watching again.

 

As for Gideon's part in Elle getting shot, that is one of the things I most dislike about his character, his second guessing himself. "I did the right thing. Elle will understand." He's trying to convince himself, but the look that Hotch gives him and the fact that Hotch doesn't answer him says that Hotch doesn't think it was the right thing to do.

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Watermelon

Watermelon

Random is random, but ION just aired The Big Game, the first of the two parter with Tobias Hankel, and now they're airing The Inspiration, the first episode of the ninth season. I know people have issues with Revelations, but they could have at least rounded out the Hankel thing.

I know last year it seemed like they go in complete order, until 8pm when they switched to the season 8 episodes. Maybe they've started doing that again since they have season 9 now.

 

A&E doesn't go in any order at all. I didn't realize until I started looking at episodes on Netflix that I had seen about 6 episodes from season 9 without knowing, and completely out of order.

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Meredith Quill

Meredith Quill

All opinions are valid and welcomed here at PTV, fans and haters alike. No-one has to justify why they love or loathe any show/episode/scene whatsoever. However, what we DO and will continue to insist upon is that everyone respects each others opinion. Anyone who proves to be incapable of doing so will ultimately find themselves getting the size nines out the door.

 

You have been warned, now please move on from this futile debate.

 

Thank you!

alexvillage

alexvillage

I think this is the place where I should post.

I stopped watching CM after Paget left. I tried to watch the episode she comes back but it was too much JJ for me, so I just watched Emily's scenes. Then they added JLH. I am not a big fan, but was curious about how she would do. I think she is ok, much, much better than AJ Cook.

But the writing! OMFG! At the same time I watched the first episode and mostly FF though the second, I watched a couple of season one reruns. Much better! Almost no Garcia and very little JJ. And I noticed something I had never noticed before: Garcia was actually not so eccentric in the way she dressed. I realize that the more they allowed her to be more of a "baby girl", the more I hated her.

Also noticed that Thomas Gibson seems bored with his part. He is not a bad actor, but his Hotch is hard to watch, easy to forget. In general, the whole cast seems to be just moving along and trying to keep their jobs. I really don't see any growth in the acting.

But the writing! Yes, I am repeating myself. The producers must be very confident that the show will not be cancelled, because the writing does not seem to improve.

I miss the way they did the profiling, linking to other cases, explaining the psychology behind the unsub. Now, it is more like a guessing game, and it is all shoved down our throats. 

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JMO

JMO

alexvillage, your post made me wonder.  It sounds like Emily was your favorite character, if you stopped watching when she left.  I wondered what I would do if my favorite character (Reid, of course) left the show.  My guess is that I would do as you did---peek, to see how it fared without him, but perhaps not commit to another full season.

 

But then, I thought, maybe not.  When I started watching CM, one of the things that attracted me was that all of the characters were interesting, and I cared about all of them.  For me, that still holds true, even when I'm not a fan of a particular storyline, or when I think there was some potential that went unmined.  The latter, frustratingly, is often the case.  But I'm never sure if that was because of the writing or the editing.  Something has to be cut, every episode, I just may not agree with what it was.

 

I don't think it's all that surprising  that the actors look and feel different in their roles from how they did in season 1.  If I look back on how I was in my own profession when I started, to how I am now, there is no comparison.  It doesn't mean I love my job any less, but the excitement and uncertainty of being a rookie (my job is in medicine, so the stakes can be high) is replaced by confidence and placidity.  For CM (and any long-running series), that is probably true of both the actors, and of the characters they portray.  As Rossi might say, "Been there, done that, am one hundred percent sure I can do it again."  For some, that may mean a series has run its course.  For me, it means it has matured.

 

By the way, if you really only watched (the awful) '200', you have actually missed at least several good episodes.  It sounds like you already saw the one in which JLH was introduced, but there were also a few in season 9 that are worth actually seeking out ('Final Shot' and 'The Edge of Winter'), and a few other reasonably good episodes scattered throughout that season as well.  For this Reid fan, there were a few that stood out above the others. 

 

Lastly, just in case you missed it, there's a whole thread about the writing and the writers.

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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

Alexvillage, I totally understand and agree with you. It's the writing that has gotten awful, but the acting has gone with it. Some appear to be phoning it in, while others are over acting (JJ and Garcia.) It's not just that the scripts are not as good, the current writers have totally lost the feel and personality of the characters as they were established. Yes, I know that people grow/change, but they've ruined what I loved about some of the characters. The writers also choose to spend more time overall on the unsubs. I'm very disappointed, but I haven't stopped watching yet. Part of the reason is that I have made many online friends because of CM and I still chat with some of them during the episodes and reply to various forums like this one. I loved Paget, too, but I completely understand and respect her reasons for leaving. If Hotch and/or Reid were to leave, I very much doubt I would continue to watch.

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Wilowy

Wilowy

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For a while, it was The UnSub Show, and Erica made the huge boner of coming out and saying without the UnSub there'd be no show. Everyone screamed their heads off and she totally backed down, did a 180 and now every chance she gets she lets it be known that it's all about our heroes as far as she's concerned. 

 

They still have too much UnSub sometimes, I won't say they don't. But I am glad the direction they've gone with the team is one of exploration of their lives, their relationships, and who they are inside. I don't think they've all been inconsistent, and everyone does something OOC once in a while. These characters have grown, have developed new character traits, and even sometimes devolve. I don't see that as anything bad. The more I know about them, the better. They aren't limited to a finite number of characteristics, and I'm glad for that. 

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

Here, I think someone said, the characters tend to lose, then gain back, then lose, then gain back, certain traits. That makes for lazy writing and inconsistent characters.

 

I think someone said that Reid is a perfect example of this very thing. In one episode, he's a fact-spouter who can't do human contact. In another, he has no problem and is more human and connects with people. For instance, that scene with Morgan was good. We saw the essential Reid-ness of him. It was both humanistic and showed the way he almost logically got over his guilt. It was a mix of old and new Reid. That's good.

 

Prentiss is/was also a victim of this. I loved Emily, but the writers could never seem to make up their minds was to who she was. She started out as kind of a nerd, a bit like Reid, and then it turned out that she'd lived this entire secret life as a super-spy and lied to the others about it, even when she was in danger and they could have helped her. Part of it was network interference, and I don't blame Paget for leaving because they totally screwed her over, but it must be tough to have to act out a role when the people who created the character can never stick to a firm outline of who the character is. Her predecessor, Elle Greenaway, was somewhat more consistently defined, but Elle was only around for a season and some change, and after that the writing seemed to take a turn for the murky as far as character traits of the main cast went.

 

And since I mentioned the super-spy arc, It Takes A Village is on A & E right now, and I'm already annoyed because Proof and the stupid pasta party is up next. I was never really bugged about it before, but once I gave it some thought I got aggravated because it seems like such a cheap way to wrap things up in a neat little bow. They should have let Reid's anger play out over several episodes, particularly in JJ's case since she was the one he turned to when Emily 'died'. I'm ambivalent towards the current  iteration of JJ, so it isn't that I hate her, but she betrayed the friendship she had with Spencer, and her little remark about micro-expressions kind of makes me want her to fall down a manhole. It would have been much more satisfying to see him gradually get over how he felt, and I'm not sure if its because television only allows for so much exploration of one thing or that Messer just loves her happy endings so much that she rushed to a solution that was the problem.

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