Zelena: DOES Wicked Always Win?

[Mathius]

A thread to talk about Zelena now that she's a regular on the show.

 

I am surprised how much I am enjoying her this season.  She makes a much better comic-relief troll than she ever did as a serious villain.  She's actually doing her best to make this problematic pregnancy story enjoyable ("Was that a kick, my little munchkin?")

[Serena]

Sign me up for the Zelena fan club. I find her hilarious. Rebecca is obviously having a blast in her role and not taking it too seriously.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

 

I hope Zelena Zelena doesn't turn into what they've done with Regina into thinking her victims should give her a break just because she did one good thing.

She seems to be more down-to-earth, and dare I say human, than other characters on the show. She is crazy and she's done some bad things, but the show never denies it. There's no whitewashing. Similarly to Rumple in S1, you don't get too much of her but you anticipate the scenes you do get. It's pretty sad that the voice of reason on this show is the Wicked Witch who kidnaps babies and rapes men.

 

In a twisted way, she's just fun. Many times she says what we're thinking. Like these little zingers:

 

"[Neal] is dumber than a box of hair."

"You are exactly like [Cora]."

"Another woman defining her happiness relative to the love of a man. It's sad, really."

"Funny you couldn't tell when I was glamoured as Marian, though."

"If it makes you feel any better, I didn't enjoy it."

"Can you blame me? You're going to take [the baby] from me. This child could be my only chance for someone to truly love me. You got a second chance, why can't I?"

"You can tell me life is fair all you want! All I can tell you is that from in here I'm still seeing one sister with all the toys!"

"So the Dark One is here to make a deal. How dreadfully unoriginal."

"I don't think so, Emma. You see the difference between you and me is... I don't mind being alone."

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

One thing I can give Zelena is that she's an unapologetic villain who does have some level of self-awareness. 

[Mari]

While I absolutely hate the baby plot, I do have to appreciate that they made her motive for wanting to keep the baby true to who Zelena's been.  She's not overcome with love, and desire to make the best possible life for her baby.

 

She's having the baby so the baby will love her best.  A completely selfish and delusional motive.  Because, well, if parents are doing their jobs, there will be days when their kids are angry with them and might not like them.  There will be days when the child is obsessed with someone or something else.  Eventually, there's going to be friends or significant others who are more important--even if it's briefly--than she is.

 

Unless he (she) takes after her (his) cousin/future stepsibling Henry.  Then all bets are off.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mari

[Mathius]

As I said in the episode topic, I really admired her in the recent episode.  First when Emma asked her if she thinks she has any right to judge her after all the things she's done, she replied "no" and made it clear that she wasn't judging Emma, just remarking.  That's another show of awareness that Regina never does.  And secondly, she refused to help Emma because she's being smart: she failed at her attempt to escape in 5x01 using villainous means, so now she's not going to sabotage herself any further and try to act on good behavior so that she can be considered suitable for custody of the baby.  There's no remorse or genuine goodness, but Zelena's totally honest about that and, again, it's the smart thing for her to do.

 

Another thing that helps Zelena in this season is that for once, her whining about her life not being fair actually feels completely justified.  It made no sense before given that she had the potential to connect with Regina as family but refused to for some reason, she had power and dominion over Oz, she had a life with Robin and Roland with none of them ever being the wiser...her constant demands for "MORE!" just came off like her being a spoiled brat.  But now, she really is in a crappy position that, while it would be suitable on its own, feels completely unfair when Regina is going free and having everything that Zelena can't have even when her crimes are 10000000000x more numerous and vicious than Zelena's.  And if that wasn't enough, Regina just keeps kicking Zelena while she's down and rubbing her privileges in her face!  It's not that Zelena deserves more now, it's that she's dead-on in that Regina deserves less, and so she has people's sympathy.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

I am surprised at how little grating I find her this season. But I still would have been happier without her or her baby-drama on the screen! 

[Mari]

Mathius is right--but I do think one more think makes Zelena's scenes interesting rather than irritating:  they're short scenes.  Zelena's being used sparingly, and I think such an over the top character is best used sparingly.  IF we had several minutes of her per episode, it would wear quickly.

 

(Which, personally, is a trap I think they fell into with Regina and Rumple.  Both characters were well-received in the first season, and their screen-time and focus was upped, burning some of us out on those characters.  I don't think the Regina problem is only the horrible Regina writing.)

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

That was exactly what I was in the process of writing, Mari, LOL.

 

I still think she's a waste of screentime and still very far from a well-written character, so I'm not going to jump on the praise bandwagon.  However, I do agree she has had some good zingers recently, and she is certainly more palatable this half season thus far.  Part of that is less overkill and overuse.  She was on way too much in 3B.  Her monologues have always been painful to listen to (the ones in "Heart of Gold" were particularly bad and sleep-inducing), and they have kept that to a minimum this half-season.  They have also minimized her whiny moaning and groaning about how unfair everything is, and I hope they're done with that, or she's going to become grating once again, fast.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

I thought she left us too soon at the end of 3B. I was shocked that they would make somebody related to the core cast and, in a show about family bonds, not explore that. Papa Pan and Cora earned their out by being huge presences that transform the lives of people they just brush up against, in hugely tragic ways. Zelena was more...decoration, when for once I thought both Regina and Zelena sharing the screen would make for some character development.

 

Instead, Regina reverted to her entitled self for all of the Frozen arc, and Zelena returns in 4B only to get put in a cupboard.

 

I'm glad Zelena's back, but I should have known that wouldn't herald some overhaul of the show getting good.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm loving her in season 5. She's so fun.

Edited November 8, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[mjgchick]

Zelena. I hope you betray Arthur. I don't blame you though. Regina was grating and they stuck you with Snow who has seemed to have forgotten how badass a she can be.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Zelena. I hope you betray Arthur.

It's possible if Arthur stops giving her what she wants. I don't see any strong ties with her and him. He just so happened to have exactly what she was looking for at that moment. If Team Storybrooke had a better deal on the table, she might take it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

She reminds me of S2 Hook who kept switching sides by making deals.

[Mathius]

I love how Zelena pointed out that maybe she wouldn't have betrayed them, or at least felt more conflicted and remorseful about it, if they had given her fairer treatment rather than let Regina verbally abuse her, threaten her, and take her voice away twice.  Not to say they should have coddled her, but treating her this crappily while coddling Regina at the same time pisses me off too and I can't blame Zelena for her reaction to it.

[Camera One]

It's just contrived as hell to me. Yeah yeah, we need the "good guys" to lose and end up back in Storybrooke but at least find a way not to make them seem like blithering idiots in favor of the Cleverest Timesuck as there ever was, Zelena.  There should have been disagreement about whether Zelena's voice should have been taken away by Regina.  She should have been off-screen locked in a small room at Granny's, guarded by Granny and the Dwarves.  They need this useless character to pop up to say a few zingers to lighten the situation because the rest of the show is so gloomy and depressing, and we need a sassy wicked woman to say sassy lines.  Zelena is a dangerous person and there should have been a magical barrier in her room in the Camelot castle, so there's no way she should have been able to escape all the way to the metal grate.  There's no possible way she could have had time to come upstairs and make a deal with paranoid Arthur in the time it took for Ms. Magical Regina and the swordplayers of Doom to climb a few flight of stairs.  Zelena is still the whiny loser she always was, and being treated badly by another whiny loser doesn't make it any more palatable or remotely enjoyable.  Frankly, this is just another example of A&E&J adding another regular and then forcing the use of them even though the existing regulars and all the "good" supporting players aren't given anything meaty to do.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I love how Zelena pointed out that maybe she wouldn't have betrayed them, or at least felt more conflicted and remorseful about it, if they had given her fairer treatment rather than let Regina verbally abuse her, threaten her, and take her voice away twice.  Not to say they should have coddled her, but treating her this crappily while coddling Regina at the same time pisses me off too and I can't blame Zelena for her reaction to it.

What I find the most interesting with Zelena is that when she was in NYC, living with Robin, and Roland, yeah, she was living under a false identity, but she was taking care of Roland. She did that for 9 weeks. For 9 weeks, she was that kid's mother. If she had behaved poorly towards him, I'm not sure that Robin would've taken lightly to it. 

 

Plus, she could've taken off anytime she wanted, they didn't even know there was a way back in Storybrooke, until the whole QoD.

[Camera One]

The whole NYC thing made no sense whatsoever.  She didn't even think to call Regina to gloat?  Really?  It was all so we could be "bowled over with surprise" when Zelena gleefully revealed she murdered Marian in cold blood.

[mjgchick]

Yeah that whole taking away someone's freedom of speech thing didn't sit with me especially when they allow Regina to verbally abuse them anytime they want.

[Faemonic]

What I find the most interesting with Zelena is that when she was in NYC, living with Robin, and Roland, yeah, she was living under a false identity, but she was taking care of Roland. She did that for 9 weeks. For 9 weeks, she was that kid's mother. If she had behaved poorly towards him, I'm not sure that Robin would've taken lightly to it.

That might have been part of the ploy, but yeah, wee bitty Roland ought to see Archie about that already. He thought he had his mother back. But then again, in This Show, the background characters are really just props? Maybe Roland lived in that weird Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead haze.

 

And maybe so too did Zelena, only because Zelena's character is so inconsistent that I can't even say that inconsistency is her character flaw...Zelena did then what The Plot needed her to do, in the way The Plot needed it to happen. I can't conceive yet of her having been caring towards Roland (because maybe he was innocent enough to never think that she was wicked) because why then bother with stealing Robin's genetic information?

[Rumsy4]

That might have been part of the ploy, but yeah, wee bitty Roland ought to see Archie about that already. He thought he had his mother back. But then again, in This Show, the background characters are really just props? Maybe Roland lived in that weird Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead haze.

 

Regina and Robin decided to give him a memory portion to make him forget the whole Marian/Zelena thing. Poor kid. It's like taking Tylenol for the people of Storybrooke.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

Regina and Robin decided to give him a memory portion to make him forget the whole Marian/Zelena thing. Poor kid. It's like taking Tylenol for the people of Storybrooke.

Taking away your son's memories is clearly the Outlaw Queen School of Parenting way. No wonder they're soulmates.

[mjgchick]

And knowing Robin he'd just do whatever Regina does since he can't even be happy for his unborn child.

Only consistent thing about Zelena is her love of Emma and her pirate. :)

[Mathius]

Currently fuming about Lana Parilla and Sean Maguire's "too much in-character" views on Zelena.  I for the life of me will never grasp how Zelena, with a body count of 1 (who was Regina's victim originally) is supposedly irredeemable, while Regina is despite all the people she's murdered and the many more crimes she's committed.  And I had to laugh at Sean saying that Robin would have killed Zelena for killing Marian if she wasn't the mother of his child.  Riiiiight, he'd feel that strongly about Marian's murder...even though he totally didn't when it was Regina who had murdered her.

[mjgchick]

I don't know how they managed to make me root for Zelena. I'm rooting for better writing for OQ but I can't root for Regina and Robin when Robin's currently in love with a sociopath.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't know how they managed to make me root for Zelena. I'm rooting for better writing for OQ but I can't root for Regina and Robin when Robin's currently in love with a sociopath.

It's a similar effect to Regina in 4A. When she was pushing Robin away, we were rooting for her because Robin was being such a jerk. But I don't think the writers intended how we feel about either scenario.

[Serena]

I'm mad at them because they're making me root for her. On one hand, she's despicable. On the other hand, screw them for just deciding to take her baby.

[Lieutenant]

I'm mad at them because they're making me root for her. On one hand, she's despicable. On the other hand, screw them for just deciding to take her baby.

This.  I'm too lazy to look it up now, but in one of the many promo articles that came out this week, Lana (I think) was talking about Zelena's character and how Regina and Robin were going to raise this baby and "only uber restricted supervised visits for you, Zelena!"  I mean, WHAT THE HELL?!  She's that baby's mother.  And as of yet, she's not harmed the kiddo at all.  Who knows?  She might be one devoted caregiver.  Maybe not.  The point is, she hasn't done anything that necessitates forcible removal of her child - yet.  It's just this whole holier-than-thou, I'm-so-much-better-than-you, just-let-me-do-it attitude of Regina's that infuriates me.  No one else in town has any qualms about taking this woman's baby away?  Anyone? Bueller?  It's this kind of stuff that really makes me more team green than anything else.  I don't want to sympathize with Zelena, but they sure are making it hard not to!

[Mathius]

That's what gets me: Zelena isn't being given a chance to raise the baby, and it's instead being handed over to Regina who had several chances at raising a child of her own and squandered them yet is still allowed to keep him for some reason.  And granted, Zelena seems like she wouldn't be much better, she could easily have supervision in Storybrooke, with Robin Hood carefully watching and ready to take the child away if Zelena mistreats her. It's a simple solution, people!

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

I think the problem isn't who's going to raise the baby, it's that the arbiter of the decision is Regina. There is no neutral third party deciding what's best for the baby. It's Regina's way or the highway and it's really not okay from any perspective. Zelena has always been a whiner about fairness and it usually makes me roll my eyes, but in this case, she's absolutely right and the show really, really needs to actually address the idea that Regina doesn't actually just get to take Zelena's baby from her.

[mjgchick]

Zelena better take up Dark Emma's deal. It's the only way I can stomach this situation. Neither Zelena or Robin seem to have a say in their own child's welfare. How is that even ok?

I hate them for making me side with a rapist. Then again my choices are a rapist vs a rapist and a moron.

[Rumsy4]

I hate them for making me side with a rapist. Then again my choices are a rapist vs a rapist and a moron.

 

That's my issue too. All the decision makers of Storybrooke are either Regina, Snow, or related to either one or both. People were annoyed that Emma threw Will Scarlet in jail. Regina making decisions about Zelena's pregnancy is way more egregious.

 

Is there no one in Storybrooke who had a cursed memory download as child welfare officers? Or at least bring in King George or some other lawyer with a grudge against Regina to contest her decisions re: Zelena. The writers' failure to properly utilize the setting of Storybrooke is a big drawback in storytelling. Like I said in another thread, there is nothing unique Storybrooke brings to the table anymore. All these stories could be happening in any generic location.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ It helps that her OTP is Captain Swan. Joking, joking. I liked her interactions with them too.

Something I noticed that Zelena and Hook have in common: they could care less about being in dangerous company/playing with the grown ups. Hook wasn't afraid of Rumple as the Dark One or Poseidon, etc. Zelena is the same way. She's not threatened by the people who could potentially off her with the wave of a hand.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[mjgchick]

Seeing Zelena with Dark Captain Swan was really nice to watch. The show should make weird team ups. Bex was so having fun in her scenes with Jen and Colin. I'd love to see her make a deal with Dark Jones about getting her baby but I think Killian is playing her while being angry with Emma.

Is Zelena a CS fanfic writer? She basically broke her ship. lmao

[KAOS Agent]

These last episodes kind of cemented to me why I'm not a fan of Zelena. She's just a plot device they use to move the pieces on the board. She's not clever. She's not a planner. She just conveniently wanders into situations that screw things up for others. Hey look I found this dreamcatcher out back! Hey Arthur, I can tether Merlin to Excalibur using this book I just found! Isn't it convenient that Emma rescued Marian and is taking her back with her? I'll just kill her and take her place. She's like the show's onscreen Contrivance Fairy. Short scenes with her and fun snark are great, but too much of her starts to grate because she isn't a compelling or complex character and using her to pop up and throw a wrench in the works is not interesting. 

[Mathius]

Yeah, even in 3B that was Zelena's biggest problem as a character/villain.

[mjgchick]

Its why Ingrid was kind of a breath of fresh air. Yes she was creepy but she had a plan and didn't chew the scene out like most of the villains do on the show.

That being said Regina and Robin makes it so hard for me to root against her and even Emma trying to kill her made me side eye her because her current boyfriend just told her how he got a bunch of rings and none were given to him. So what makes Regina and Hook better than Zelena? They haven't even given her the chances Regina's had.

[Shanna Marie]

That being said Regina and Robin makes it so hard for me to root against her and even Emma trying to kill her made me side eye her because her current boyfriend just told her how he got a bunch of rings and none were given to him. So what makes Regina and Hook better than Zelena?

For Emma right now, Zelena's latest betrayal is very, very recent and has a lot to do with Emma's current fix. The last time Zelena was given a chance, she betrayed them and helped Arthur tether Merlin to the sword so that Arthur could make Merlin threaten Emma's family. As a result, Hook was wounded and nearly killed, which resulted in Emma feeling forced to tether him to the sword to save him, for which he may or may not ever be able to forgive her, and doing that turned her dark. If Zelena had actually honestly taken the last chance she was given, they could have taken the sword, fixed everything up, and maybe, just maybe, they'd have trusted Zelena enough to let her have more contact with her baby and to give her another chance.

 

There's no wonder that Emma's seriously pissed at her right now.

 

Since the last time Hook and Regina were given chances, they haven't betrayed anyone. I may not think Regina's all that reformed, but aside from making some perhaps unwise use of the dagger, she hasn't actually betrayed Emma in a long time, and once Hook switched sides, he's been all-in. The last time Zelena was given a chance, Hook ended up nearly dying, and goodness knows what else resulted from all that.

[YaddaYadda]

The last time Zelena was given a chance, she betrayed them and helped Arthur tether Merlin to the sword so that Arthur could make Merlin threaten Emma's family.

 

I don't call that a chance. They took her with them to where she said they should go. And that was the end of that. Zelena is not someone who sits idly by, counting the sheep. And it's always hard to decide what she's going to do.

 

In Zelena's case, Regina is judge, jury, and executioner, and whatever Regina says about Zelena, everyone else follows the lead. When Zelena cried that Regina was going to take her baby, that should have resonated with Mary Margaret, because she got her babies taken from her (ironically, Zelena took the second one), but still, she knows how that feels.

 

Zelena offered to help out with the storming of the castle, Regina didn't trust her. They took her with them to the castle. 

 

Once the information was verified, Regina could've just poofed Zelena back to Granny's, at least she's not there anymore to cause trouble. Or she could've taken a chance and trusted her. She gave them good intel.

 

Zelena wanted to be on the winning side. Arthur removed her cuff, she tethered the most powerful sorcerer ever to the sword to be controlled by Arthur.

 

How could she lose to Regina this time?

 

This rivalry/hatred thing going on between Zelena and Regina is ultimately the thing that ended up costing Emma (and now Hook).

[Rumsy4]

In Zelena's case, Regina is judge, jury, and executioner, and whatever Regina says about Zelena, everyone else follows the lead.

This is supposed to echo (read: copy) S2, where it was Snowing and Emma's "fault" Regina reverted. But whereas Team Hero merely refused to eat her lasagna, Regina continues to make active threats against Zelena.

When they all thought Dark Emma was after the baby, Regina promised to protect the child, but declared she would do nothing to protect Zelena. If that had been Mary Margaret, she would have immediately taken Zelena's cuff off. That would have been a bad choice obviously, but Regina takes pleasure in twisting the knife. Regina threatened Zelena's safety in Camelot as well when she told Zel. that she was going to take the baby and raise the child. You sow the wind...

Regina in Team Hero mode still enjoys threatening and controlling people. But while Emma thanks her for it, Zelena obviously lashes out.

[KingOfHearts]

 

She's not a planner. She just conveniently wanders into situations that screw things up for others.

I would disagree on Zelena not being a planner. She spent a lot of time planning her time travel scheme, she strategized the Zarian debacle (as we're told), and she was already planning an escape from Merlin's tower. Is she used as a plot device? Absolutely, but so is every other character on the show. But I don't think she's portrayed as half-witted or someone who just stumbles about the right answer constantly. (That award goes to Regina.) I've always seen the gears spinning in her head more than I have with Regina, Cruella or other blind furies. YMMV.

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

It's more that I don't sit around and wonder what Zelena's planning because I know that unlike Rumpel, whatever Zelena does isn't some secret well thought out plan (if she's got one, she'll be sure to tell you). They just throw Zelena in when they need something to go wrong, but it's not through any grand scheme of her own.

I also think she's pretty stupid. For example, she's a big reason why Hook is the Dark One, so unleashing him while she's right there is a very stupid thing to do. Not to mention, she's got a brand new baby and who knows what angry Hook might do to the town in general. Now the story might not treat it this way because they just want her to move the plot forward, but in reality, bad things would happen to Zelena for making this move, which makes her very dumb in my opinion.

[KingOfHearts]

I also think she's pretty stupid.

 

Zelena is really stupid. She's done some dumb, dumb things that only the minds of A&E could conjure. Her turn at bat for the idiot ball has come more than once, but that can be said of most of the other characters. I agree - she's a psycho with no actual long-term strategy. In essence, a wild card. I do sort of like that quality, since she keeps the main characters on their toes, but I can see why others might not.

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Basically, Zelena could have used Excalibur and killed both Emma and Hook. She's not the kind of person to have qualms about it. And she would have possession of the most powerful object we have known yet. Instead, she hands over Excalibur to Hook after revealing him as another Dark One. Makes no sense.

[mjgchick]

She probably knows that once you forge Excalibur and Dagger you can't control anyone though. Also she might try to make a deal with Hook while he's in his psychotic boyfriend stage.

[InsertWordHere]

Even though it can no longer be used to control, I think the dagger portion of Excalibur still works as a method to get the Dark One's power. If she stabbed Emma, she would still become the Dark One, I think. Zelena does not want to become the Dark One. She could have stabbed Rumple in 3B if that's what she wanted.

Edited November 18, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

Excalibur can kill the Dark One. It was made to cut immortal ties. Isn't that what Dark Swan is planning? Transfer all the Darkness to Zelena and then kill her using Excalibur? So, Zelena could have easily killed Hook when he was still clueless, and Emma as she was frozen by the Squid Ink. That would keep Emma from trying her gland plan on Zelena another time. Not that I want that to happen. But characters behaving illogically is so annoying. 

[InsertWordHere]

Yes, but what I'm saying is that doing so (at least to Emma, I'm not sure about Hook) would make Zelena the Dark One and she doesn't want to be the Dark One.

[Mathius]

Zelena's role in the finale was such BS. She'd finally seemed to have become a smarter character, yet out of nowhere she makes her old mistake of openly boasting and mua-ha-haing about her intentions, in this case raising the baby to be wicked. And then she gets sent back to Oz in a nonsensical way that makes absolutely no sense given previously established facts.

Poor Zelena. Yet another victim of TS, TW.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

Baby Zelena waved her hand and made a twister to take her to Oz. How hard would it be for her to do it again and go back to Storybrooke where her baby is now completely alone and begging to be taken?