Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tarotx]

So Vixen is going to play a big part in helping Oliver with an Emotional wrenching story line? I mean I kind of knew that but I missed that Wendy actually said it. 15 is really going to be a non fun episode all the way.

[Chaser]

That Malcolm scene is bad. Just Bad Bad. JB works in the Captain Jack role and has had his moments on Arrow, but those are few and far between now. 

 

I can see using Laurel convincing Nyssa to help Thea. I just have questions about how its going to work. If Laurel convinces Nyssa to do it out of the goodness of her heart, does that mean Nyssa gets nothing? She gives up the cure and is thrown from the League while Malcolm sits pretty. I have a hard time believing Nyssa would ever agree to that, not after everything. Which means that Malcolm would need to agree to something. Giving up the League? Even for Thea I can't see that. Spoilers say that Nyssa has a knife to Malcolm's throat, does that work if Malcolm loses the LOA? Maybe its not the cure that Laurel convinces Nyssa to give up, maybe Nyssa wins and Laurel gets Nyssa to spare Malcolm's life. So the "knife" is the constant threat of Nyssa taking off his head if he misbehaves. 

 

I also don't get the order of the fights. Nyssa/Malcolm and then Oliver/Malcolm or the other way around. If Oliver tells Nyssa to go to hell, then is the fight between Nyssa/Malcolm first? They have made a big deal about the fight with Malcolm/Oliver so I can see that being the final fight. But then who won the first one? 

 

I have a feeling that this episode will have so much stupid.

 

So Vixen is going to play a big part in helping Oliver with an Emotional wrenching story line? I mean I kind of knew that but I missed that Wendy actually said it. 15 is really going to be a non fun episode all the way.

With all the talk of magic or science that makes Felicity walk again, I would if Vixen plays a part in making her walk. I have no clue how and it doesn't make anymore sense than Vixen giving Laurel the Canary cry but if Felicity gives Oliver back the ring at the end of the episode, I could see them choosing to have that be the episode that heals Felicity.

[tarotx]

They are going to use Vixen in an Oliver centric storyline so it's going to be help find the boy or I guess find DD's magic. But maybe Vixen will help with Felicity too. I mean I hope they are going to be dealing with that. Though maybe they will just show Felicity working her ass in physical therapy and things slowly comeback. Felicity is a superhero but I want her recovery either natural recovery or tech. Just because they are going the Lotus with Thea-I don't think we need two magic cues. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by tarotx

[Chaser]

 I hadn't seen that interview. I'm going with The Kid.

 

I would prefer lots of physical therapy or something techy, but Oliver's speech in 4x11 makes me think they will go with something magical.

[Morrigan2575]

Damn, it's so sad how obvious they are, we got that as soon as we saw the episode title.

[kismet]

If he were trying to put William above his own needs, wouldn't he avoid visiting William while DD is determined to hurt the people close to him?

 

I don't mind if it's a parent; just let it not be Felicity's parent.  Oliver lying to Felicity and making secret visits to see the kid is bad enough; having her mother support his betrayal is too much to put on Felicity.

DO we honestly have confirmation that he has been visiting William in the last month?

 

I know they dropped that line in the last ep, which everyone is believing that he is making secret visits. But is there in story confirmation of visits beyond the first one?

 

Because him visiting the kid while keeping the secret changes the whole dynamics of everything. Perhaps he has been and BM gives him permission to tell FS and he goes to Donna for advice. She would find out before and that would be okay with me.

 

Also, I don't believe this person is going to be another secret-keeper. I think this person is going to do what FS did in s2. Approach OQ with the truth, give him an ultimatum. And then let OQ either confess to FS, or the person will tell FS him/herself.

 

Honestly, I wish Laurel would find out and in a lawyery manner kick Oliver all around the room for agreeing to it.

 

If LL found out about the kid and was all-pro OQ immediately I would take that as another anvil that she is in the grave. That baby was conceived while they were together, so much MQ thought the baby was LLs. It might be years but one doesn't downshift that quickly from betrayal, least of all LL. Unless they are wrapping up all of her storylines.

Edited February 6, 2016 by kismet

[kismet]

I can see Donna siding with Oliver over the whole BM drama. If that's the case, I agree that we're likely going to find out that it was Donna's decision that Papa Smoak (do we even know his real name in the show?) leave the family because she knew how bad he was or was becoming, and she didn't want her daughter around that.

 

Regarding Oliver not accepting Nyssa's offer, I remember the EPs (MG?) once saying that they decide on what will happen in the season finale and then write the season's episodes leading up to that final episode.  So that each episode is like a step in the chain.  While we watch and criticize each episode individually, the EPs are thinking, 'wait until it all plays out'.  So what we're seeing is Oliver facing the same dilemmas that he faced in S3, but making different decisions.  Thus we have what first appears to be S3 redux (Nyssa offer), but then this Oliver handles it a different way.  But the whole BMD still stumps me and appears to be an exception to this new, better Oliver decisionmaking.  Maybe I'll be surprised - I hope so.

Read this after I made my response to @Statsgirl's response. Donna as the secret confidante/sympathizer I think only works if BM has given him permission to tell people or DS has made a similar level lie in the past.

 

But using your logic, like I said in my earlier post - I could see them using this opportunity to show OQ making a different decision from what he did with the MM paternity reveal. He chose to keep that secret and nearly lost his sister. Now that somebody has confronted him with his new secret and he has the opportunity to make a different choice - perhaps the writers will show him making a different choice so that he does not lose FS.

 

TQ & FS seem to be linked this year, even if they are not permitted to interact onscreen. Both facing life-altering tragedies brought on by being loved by OQ. So I'm anticipating their stories will begin to parallel each other. So I wonder if this will be OQ's paternity choices redux.

 

Because of course, somebdy still needs to point out to OQ that this is not a good secret to keep long-term. Of course, it will probably be too late because its a TV show & William will already be kidnapped. I actually wonder if they will kidnap FS & William together. That would be an awkward inprisionment convo. How do you know OQ - he's my fiance. How do you know him - he's Mommy's new friend. Que loads of miscommunication.

[lemotomato]

Question: Will we see Arrow’s Felicity continue to struggle with being in a wheelchair, or has that all been resolved? —Jenny

Ausiello: Though Felicity seems to have navigated many of the early bumps — presentation to the Palmer Tech board included — “We will definitely feel the weight of it” in episodes to come, showrunner Wendy Mericle told Matt Mitovich. “There’s a big decision she and Oliver are going to make at the end of [Episode 413, airing Feb. 10], and it will inform a journey in 414 and 415 that she goes on with respect to how she’s going to handle being in a relationship, from the point of view of somebody who’s in a wheelchair. It’s a very small thing, but it is powerful and it is very emotional.”

I have no idea what this means. What does being in a wheelchair have to do with their relationship? And they make a big decision, but it's going to be a very small thing? What?

Edited February 6, 2016 by lemotomato

[Ann Mack]

Maybe Felicity is NOT going to be around during episode 4x15, hmmm!

[apinknightmare]

I have no idea what this means. What does being in a wheelchair have to do with their relationship?

Maybe they make a decision about kids? Trying to figure out how to make the baby mama drama go FULL IMPACT.

[looptab]

They're having the kids talk, aren't they? Heeeelp

 

Edit: or what apinknightmare said!

Edited February 6, 2016 by looptab

[Chaser]

Kids was my first thought.

 

Why wouldn't she be in 4x15?

[lemotomato]

Having kids would be a big decision, but then why would WM then contradict herself and say "It’s a very small thing"? Unless she literally means babies are small? 

 

Meh. I need coffee.

[apinknightmare]

They're having the kids talk, aren't they? Heeeelp

Edit: or what apinknightmare said!

That's probably why he starts feeling guilty about not telling her about his son. They decide not to have any, but OOPS HE ALREADY HAS ONE!!11!

Having kids would be a big decision, but then why would WM then contradict herself and say "It’s a very small thing"? Unless she literally means babies are small?

Meh. I need coffee.

I can't think of another decision that would make 14 and 15 emotional knowing what's coming in those eps, but maybe it is something else that's small?

[looptab]

That's probably why he starts feeling guilty about not telling her about his son. They decide not to have any, but OOPS HE ALREADY HAS ONE!!11!

Ha, I imagine the opposite, actually. Maybe after the PapaSmoak drama they start discussing parenting and whatnot; they agree they want kids - at some point in the future, and pledge to do better by their kids than their parents did with them. And then Oliver starts tripping. LOL

Edited February 6, 2016 by looptab

[Ann Mack]

Kids was my first thought.

 

Why wouldn't she be in 4x15?

Initially I thought because they said 4x13 would involve a journey for 4x14 & 4x15. Then I remembered Stephen said something emotional happens at the end of 4x15 and Olicity fans are NOT going to like it. So I'm thinking Felicity is present for whatever emotional situation is happening at the end of 4x15.

[apinknightmare]

Ha, I imagine the opposite, actually. Maybe after the PapaSmoak drama they start discussing parenting and whatnot; they agree they want kids - at some point in the future, and pledge to do better by her kids. And then Oliver starts tripping. LOL

Ha, that could be it, too. Then she finds out he has a kid stashed away in seekrit.

[lemotomato]

I can't think of another decision that would make 14 and 15 emotional knowing what's coming in those eps, but maybe it is something else that's small?

Yeah, maybe she's talking about different things. The answer is worded strangely.

 

I think you're right about the big decision having something to do about having kids.

[looptab]

And then she has to help saving him! YAY!

[Chaser]

We thought the wedding mention was a bit fast, maybe a small thing happens and they decided to get married sooner rather than later (4x14).

[looptab]

Yeah, maybe she's talking about different things. The answer is worded strangely.

 

I think you're right about the big decision having something to do about having kids.

I had to reread that answers several times before making any sense out of it.

Well, they could be having a discussion about her keeping her surname, except, secret kid, so no wedding! THat would count as a small thing that turns out emotional in the next episodes, haha.

[theacostov]

WM says that the decision is going to inform a journey in 4x14 and 4x14 she goes on re her relationship. We know she breaks up with him. If they decide not to have kids and then she finds out he has one that he's hiding that's going to be an extra blow on top of hiding it in the first place.

Alternatively, if they decide they do want kids and then seeing William being kidnapped might make her rethink things, plus the fact that obviously he's lying to her.

This may be the extra thing that helps break them up on top of the lie.

My heart hurts for Felicity either way. It's gonna suck for her.

ETA: I hope it's just a decision to get married sooner. That would still inform her journey not to marry him in the next 2 episodes. I don't want a kids talk.

Edited February 6, 2016 by theacostov

[EmeraldArcher]

Regarding Oliver not accepting Nyssa's offer, I remember the EPs (MG?) once saying that they decide on what will happen in the season finale and then write the season's episodes leading up to that final episode.  So that each episode is like a step in the chain.  While we watch and criticize each episode individually, the EPs are thinking, 'wait until it all plays out'.  So what we're seeing is Oliver facing the same dilemmas that he faced in S3, but making different decisions.  Thus we have what first appears to be S3 redux (Nyssa offer), but then this Oliver handles it a different way.  But the whole BMD still stumps me and appears to be an exception to this new, better Oliver decisionmaking.  Maybe I'll be surprised - I hope so.

I really hope so, too.  MG's love of making Oliver stupid is so frustrating when he's this far along in his hero's journey. The knee-jerk reaction to work with the super villains is getting so old, especially with the emphasis of Felicity's influence on Oliver. But then again, they even had the woman who didn't want to be a woman Oliver loved because of his willingness to work with Malcolm team up with him herself on the mission to NP. Ugh. Why do they undermine their heroes' integrity by aligning them with the villains? At least Felicity never actually lost her distrust and loathing for Malcolm, unlike Oliver (apparently).

 

I'm also still stumped by the stupid BMD. It seems so cowardly to lie, especially when given the perfect opportunity to be honest.

[Morrigan2575]

Maybe they make a decision about kids? Trying to figure out how to make the baby mama drama go FULL IMPACT.

Definitely the kids talk. Felicity is going to say she can't have or doesn't want to have kids...que BMD!

My friend's husband and his buddies are big into comicbooks and they love Flash/Arrow, they're also really good at predicting what's going to happen (very good track record). Anyway they came up with this theory that i hope, hope, hope is wrong. However, after reading this I'm terrified they got it right.

Basically Olicity break up and due to Felicity's issues with her dad, she nudges Oliver to spend time with both William and Samantha.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Definitely the kids talk. Felicity is going to say she can't have or doesn't want to have kids...que BMD!

My friend's husband and his buddies are big into comicbooks and they love Flash/Arrow, they're also really good at predicting what's going to happen (very good track record). Anyway they came up with this theory that i hope, hope, hope is wrong. However, after reading this I'm terrified they got it right.

Basically Olicity break up and due to Felicity's issues with her dad, she nudges Oliver to spend time with both William and Samantha.

Yep. I don't expect to see The Kid and The Mother, but I do think we will get references to Oliver leaving to spend time with them.

[apinknightmare]

If the kid is kidnapped in 4x15 simply for being Oliver's kid, and then Samantha and Oliver decide afterward that Oliver needs to spend MORE time with the kid, I will laugh forever. Because for real, what morons. And shitty, horrendous parents.

Edited February 6, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Arrow-Logic. It's set on a negative scale.

[apinknightmare]

Arrow-Logic. It's set on a negative scale.

 

Seriously. Samantha not wanting William involved in Oliver's shitty life is the ONE part of that whole mess of a storyline that made any kind of sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

If the kid is kidnapped in 4x15 simply for being Oliver's kid, and then Samantha and Oliver decide afterward that Oliver needs to spend MORE time with the kid, I will laugh forever. Because for real, what morons. And shitty, horrendous parents.

Human Logic - stay the hell away from my kid

Arrow Logic - spend more time with my kid.

Actually I could see this working if they act believed Darhk was neutralized in some way.

[looptab]

I believe somebody speculated that here at some point. And I do agree that they would be idiots to let Oliver see the kid, and even more after the kidnapping. But, isn't that joke of a trial in 16? Maybe they do get DD after the kidnapping, and Oliver feels it's safe enough to see him.

[thegirlsleuth]

Basically Olicity break up and due to Felicity's issues with her dad, she nudges Oliver to spend time with both William and Samantha.

 

 

When they announced the kid plot, I thought the conflict for Oliver and Felicity would center around her feelings of abandonment in conflict with Oliver's concern that the he couldn't bring his dangerous life in contact with the kid.  Little did I know that they would turn the stupid up to 11.

 

I think I would be more ok with Oliver's lie, understanding that it came from a place of desperation and vulnerability, if he didn't ask her to marry him before telling her.  If my reading of the spoilers are right and he marries her (or tries to, waiting at the end of the aisle for her before a villain crashes the ceremony/Felicity finds out) my appreciation of Oliver and the Oliver/Felicity relationship is going to take a giant hit. 

 

God I hate Guggenheim's writing.

[apinknightmare]

Actually I could see this working if they act believed Darhk was neutralized in some way.

 

Well, since Laurel's going to make sure he gets locked up in the super secure Iron Heights which no one ever ever escapes from, then yes. Probably.

If my reading of the spoilers are right and he marries her (or tries to, waiting at the end of the aisle for her before a villain crashes the ceremony/Felicity finds out) my appreciation of Oliver and the Oliver/Felicity relationship is going to take a giant hit. 

 

Since SA basically said Oliver and Felicity break up at the end of 4x15, and a Vancouver pap said they filmed some kind of wedding scene in 4x16 - a hallucination, a dream, a whatever - then I think Felicity probably calls off the wedding before it happens. 

[Guest]

“There’s a big decision she and Oliver are going to make at the end of [Episode 413, airing Feb. 10], and it will inform a journey in 414 and 415 that she goes on with respect to how she’s going to handle being in a relationship, from the point of view of somebody who’s in a wheelchair. It’s a very small thing, but it is powerful and it is very emotional.”

 

 

It's definitely the kids talk which I'm surprised has taken this long considering they're planning on getting married. But the fact that it's linked to her being in a wheelchair is throwing me a bit. Sounds like Felicity might decide she wants children but she doesn't know if that's possible anymore? The 'very small thing' is confusing me.

[Ann Mack]

The more and more I hear about BMD and the stupidity of this story line all I have is:

 

 

With a side of this feeling specifically for Marc:

 

[thegirlsleuth]

Since SA basically said Oliver and Felicity break up at the end of 4x15, and a Vancouver pap said they filmed some kind of wedding scene in 4x16 - a hallucination, a dream, a whatever - then I think Felicity probably calls off the wedding before it happens. 

 

Oh, thank god.  I wasn't 100 percent sure on whether the breakup was happening in 4x15, and I can't believe I'm saying this about a breakup, but this is good news.

[apinknightmare]

It's definitely the kids talk which I'm surprised has taken this long considering they're planning on getting married. But the fact that it's linked to her being in a wheelchair is throwing me a bit. Sounds like Felicity might decide she wants children but she doesn't know if that's possible anymore? The 'very small thing' is confusing me.

 

Yeah, I can't think of a "very small thing" relationship-wise that would have a big emotional impact. Marriage, kids, whatever, that's all really big stuff IMO. So, maybe it's something else? Although knowing the kid comes into play soon makes it seem like whatever this is would have to do with that. So...not sure. 

[way2interested]

At first I assumed it was the kids talk, but now part of me thinks it might be something as simple as Oliver and Felicity deciding that they want to get married immediately rather than wait any longer (cue the "quickly-approaching wedding") for a cure that may never come or for other life-shaking people to return or events to happen to them. If it is the kids talk, which would be pretty set up by the episode, it might be a "small thing" in terms of how they talk about it. As in, rather it be a complete revelation for the two of them, it might be Oliver and Felicity sharing with each other that they do want kids someday and agreeing that they are nervous because of their pasts and their current situations (both as heroes and with Felicity in a wheelchair) but that they feel like they can overcome their fears together as always. The "small" might just be the amount of thought and discussion that goes between Oliver and Felicity about the subject, which might actually be little if they both are on the exact same page on the idea of kids.

[Guest]

Yeah, I can't think of a "very small thing" relationship-wise that would have a big emotional impact. Marriage, kids, whatever, that's all really big stuff IMO. So, maybe it's something else? Although knowing the kid comes into play soon makes it seem like whatever this is would have to do with that. So...not sure. 

 

I really don't know because any discussion of kids in a relationship is the complete opposite of a 'very small thing' tbh. My first thought was actually that they decide to get married sooner than later because it links up with the 414 episode description that the wedding is fast approaching. But then if this talk happens at the end of 413, that must also play into Oliver feeling guilty that he hasn't told Felicity about his son. 

 

It could be something like Felicity being ready to become a proper family which is more of a blanket statement than anything. Still not getting how that links to her being in a wheelchair though. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

Wendy's usage of the English language is failing my interpretation skills.

So Oliver and Felicity make a big decision in 413, and then Felicity goes through a ~journey in 414 and 415 in which she'll get insight into how to be in a relarionship while being wheelchair-bound, and THAT is a very small thing?

Or is the big decision a very small thing?

Words, they are hard.

Edited February 6, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Velocity23]

Felicitys nemesis from the Flash played by Emily Kinney was on set of Arrow.

 

[ComicFan777]

It may very well be simply a talk about getting married sooner, but I keep thinking in the back of my mind, the emotional beats of this storyline may reflect something in the comics for Oliver and Dinah.  In some of the comics, I think Dinah thought it was too dangerous to have a family, but Oliver wanted to start a family.  After Dinah was brutally attacked and she couldn't have kids anymore, he changed his mind and agreed with Dinah that it was too dangerous.  I think that somewhere along the line, they might have broken up at some point because she felt he still wanted to have a family and she didn't want to hold him back since she couldn't have any because of the severity of her injuries.  She also wanted him to reconnect with his son Connor. 

 

So how might this tie into Arrow?:
After the attack, things changed for Felicity.  She is a wheelchair now.  The danger is a lot more real.  They were attacked being in a car.  She chose this life and so she is ok with it.  However, bringing a child into this situation - the child didn't choose this dangerous life, so she would opt to not actively pursue having kids because it is too dangerous in the life they lead.  In particular, she is feeling very vulnerable right now and still getting used to life in a wheelchair - she may feel that at this time, she wouldn't be able to adequately protect the kid like Oliver or the rest of the team would.  She may have to have someone else with her at all times when bringing a kid anywhere.  She may think it would be too dangerous to bring a child into this right now. 

 

It seems that Oliver may be oddly optimistic about raising kids in this dangerous world, despite the attack (ie. visiting the kid in Central City - it still baffles me why he would after DD attack and what happened to Felicity).  Since he already has a kid, he would go along with Felicity saying that it may be ok for them not to have kids right now, but in his heart he does want to have kids.  After the kidnapping, Oliver may come to the same conclusion as Felicity, that it may be too dangerous to bring a child into this situation.  He would probably come to terms with it being too dangerous to visit William anymore.  Apparently, that is what it takes for him to consider it.

 

I imagine the lie would play the largest part in the breakup, but not the kid talk, so I don't know.  This might totally be off-base.

[Morrigan2575]

Bug Eyed Bandit is back? Cool, hopefully she'll be a good challenge for Felicity

[looptab]

I don't know..is it a good idea so soon after the Calculator? 

[Velocity23]

How do we know Brie isnt somehow connected to Calculator?

[Guest]

Yeah, that does seem a little repetitive, IMO. We've already had a hack-off between Felicity and her dad. Unless she's somehow linked to HIVE.

[way2interested]

So how might this tie into Arrow?:

After the attack, things changed for Felicity.  She is a wheelchair now.  The danger is a lot more real.  They were attacked being in a car.  She chose this life and so she is ok with it.  However, bringing a child into this situation - the child didn't choose this dangerous life, so she would opt to not actively pursue having kids because it is too dangerous in the life they lead.  In particular, she is feeling very vulnerable right now and still getting used to life in a wheelchair - she may feel that at this time, she wouldn't be able to adequately protect the kid like Oliver or the rest of the team would.  She may have to have someone else with her at all times when bringing a kid anywhere.  She may think it would be too dangerous to bring a child into this right now. 

 

It seems that Oliver may be oddly optimistic about raising kids in this dangerous world, despite the attack (ie. visiting the kid in Central City - it still baffles me why he would after DD attack and what happened to Felicity).  Since he already has a kid, he would go along with Felicity saying that it may be ok for them not to have kids right now, but in his heart he does want to have kids.  After the kidnapping, Oliver may come to the same conclusion as Felicity, that it may be too dangerous to bring a child into this situation.  He would probably come to terms with it being too dangerous to visit William anymore.  Apparently, that is what it takes for him to consider it.

 

I imagine the lie would play the largest part in the breakup, but not the kid talk, so I don't know.  This might totally be off-base.

 

Yeah, that's another side that I can picture happening if this is indeed the kid talk. To add, maybe Felicity would see how being a parent really affects a person's life, seeing how much her father has even affected her life and how neither her nor Oliver really know anything about being a proper family on top of their dangerous lifestyles and her own physical disabilities. She might decide against it indefinitely, and Oliver, being simultaneously supportive boyfriend and a lying secret-keeper, would support her decision and begin to have guilt about wanting a family as well as already having one.

 

But, I'm kind of resigning myself to believing that it might be something not as deep, like just them deciding to move up the wedding because reasons.

 

 

I don't know..is it a good idea so soon after the Calculator? 

My first thought at hearing this though. Although, I do commend them for bringing two personal villains for Felicity in the span of half a season. Maybe her hive theme actually does connect to HIVE?

[Velocity23]

Didnt Brie have an interest in Felicity in the Flash tie in comics?

[apinknightmare]

Didnt Brie have an interest in Felicity in the Flash tie in comics?

 

I think so? Didn't she have life-sized bug men kidnap her from PT, and Barry wound up saving her?

[Morrigan2575]

I think so? Didn't she have life-sized bug men kidnap her from PT, and Barry wound up saving her?

Yes.

[jay741982]

Felicitys nemesis from the Flash played by Emily Kinney was on set of Arrow.

 

Bug Eyed Bandit is back? Cool, hopefully she'll be a good challenge for Felicity

Yes can't wait as I adore Emily Kinney and I do think Brie is likely a part of HIVE