Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tv echo]

I think the worst part of this storyline is that it's happening to Felicity at probably her lowest point. She's paralyzed, then she meets her evil dad and that probably shakes her and makes her question some things. Then she finds out the man she loves has been hiding a secret kid, and she'll very likely find out in the worst way possible. Then they break up. Then someone they love dies. SO GREAT! SUCH FUN! 

 

Not only that, but Felicity will probably also find out that her mother lied (or omitted to tell her)* about things concerning her father.  So that, coupled with Oliver lying or failing to tell her really crucial personal information, could really shake Felicity.  It would make her start to think that she can't really trust anyone - not even the ones closest to her.  I know I'd be shaken if both my mom and my fiance lied to me about important information that I needed to know.  It would shake my trust and my judgment as well.  I'd just want space away from both of them for awhile.

 

(* In that ETonine interview, WM said: "One of the ways we were most intrigued by with that storyline was with respect to her mother. What does Felicity learn about herself through this flash from the past, so to speak. What does her mother know? What does that dynamic look like? She was very young when he left and she doesn’t really remember  -  she remembers the abandonment but she doesn’t know who he is aside from what her mother’s told her. There’s going to be a lot of emotional tension and some pretty big questions that she’s going to want to get answered.")

 

Sometimes I wish that MG would tell his 10-year-old self to grow up.

[looptab]

Thinking about what could possibly trigger Oliver's memory so that he finally remembers his son, I bet it's going to be another remark about kids by the Ivy Town neighbor.

[bijoux]

Ooh, yes. Good call. And since the wedding is approaching it seems I was completely wrong and they actually are invited to the engagement party. I wonder who sends the invite.

[apinknightmare]

Stick to cooking eggs in your crock pot, Laura Hoffman!!!111!

[hogwash]

I feel like they're just gonna include scenes from the BM saga in the previously on section of 413 and call it a day. It's that lazy. They're not even gonna explain why Oliver would keep the kid a secret (pinky promises are binding contracts?) or have him even pretend to be conflicted about it until then. 

[TVHappy9463]

David Ramsey is crossing over to Flash, Barry was the first one in the grave scene, What if, Zoom kills Diggle as DD has already been put in jail, or not since he bargains with Oliver to help his escape if he cures Felicity. And the "him" they have to kill is Zoom.  

[apinknightmare]

The "him" isn't Zoom, because Barry and Oliver talk about Zoom at the grave site - Barry was late because he was dealing with him over in Central City.

[Guest]

For Oliver to 'begin' to feel guilty, it's either gonna be the Ivy Town couple bringing up kids again or it's gonna be Donna, in an off-hand comment about them having kids next. Then we'll get a close up of SA's puppy dog guilty face. 

 

Also, is it wrong to cling to the fact that Diggle is getting an upgraded helmet as my hope that he's not the one in the grave? Would they spend out on that when he's only gonna get like 2-3 episodes out of it? LOL. I'm losing it.

[hogwash]

Oliver vs Zoom would be so embarrassing. There's no coming back from that. Oliver would really die this time.

 

It's so weird. I wasn't remotely worried that Felicity was in the grave but now that's she's officially off the list I'm even more confused. I'm still 85% set on Quentin Lance but is he big enough considering that they teased Felicity for 9 episodes + winter break? Diggle definitely fits but I won't even consider it. Diggle gets the ax but the worse members of the Lance family get to stay????? Hell no. Screw that. 

[bijoux]

Wouldn't they keep Barry's nemesis for Barry to defeat?

[SmallScreenDiva]

Also, is it wrong to cling to the fact that Diggle is getting an upgraded helmet as my hope that he's not the one in the grave? Would they spend out on that when he's only gonna get like 2-3 episodes out of it? LOL. I'm losing it.

 

Absolutely not wrong. While I don't believe Diggle is the one in the grave, this detail makes for a nice addition to my list of reasons, too. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[dtissagirl]

I'm still 85% set on Quentin Lance but is he big enough considering that they teased Felicity for 9 episodes + winter break?

I think Quentin dying fits the external reasons of making it a big death: Paul B has been a regular since the pilot, and he has history/relationships with everyone on Team Arrow [now including dating Donna], so every character can react to him dying with different levels of emotion.

But I'm not sure if him dying causes any shock, or devastation on the audience. I think it's gonna be him, and my main reactions are 1. damn I'm gonna miss PB's behind the scene pictures, and 2. ugh, wrong Lance.

Edited January 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

But I'm not sure if him dying causes any shock, or devastation on the audience. I think it's gonna be him, and my main reactions are 1. damn I'm gonna miss PB's behind the scene pictures, and 2. ugh, wrong Lance.

Well, I for sure can't wait for more emotionally compromised Laurel, hell-bent on revenge!

I Still think it's Quentin too, which...yawn. Surprise me, show (but don't surprise me with Diggle, pls)!

Edited January 29, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

I think it's Lance too, purely because I see it as them giving Laurel more story next season (and the last few episodes of this one too). Death doesn't become her, it motivates her. LOL.

 

But saying that, it's so weird to have Felicity in the limo instead of Laurel then, even though I know the reason why they did that. But if it is Quentin in the grave, it would make more sense for Laurel to have that kind of intense emotional reaction that Felicity had. It is her dad after all. 

 

Basically these flash forwards probably aren't gonna make much sense continuity-wise once the season is over and we can look back on things. Unless the one in the grave is Diggle, I don't think either of O/F's reactions will fit tbh.

[nksarmi]

I still remain fearful that the death is going to be BM and the crew will end up having to raise the kid while hiding their night time activities from him.  So if it's Lance, I think I might actually be relieved.  Worse was possible.

 

At any rate, here's hoping that it's just opposition research on Oliver that allows DD's crew to find out about the kid.  And personally, I hope it's revealed that she did cash the first check and she was just holding the second one for when the kid went to college and is pissed that it's no good since the family lost everything in season two.  I mean seriously, as if Moira would allow there to be a couple of million-dollar checks floating around out there and not check on them.

 

I can accept that Oliver wasn't feeling guilty about it if they have him voice that he decided not to see William again and that's why he didn't tell Felicity.  I can also accept that Felicity gets angry at him for deciding not to be a part of the boy's life even if she later comes to understand why.  But I really hope it's a "I need space and time to think" type of situation rather than "we are done" type of deal.  Because so far, they haven't created a situation where I would believe the "we are done" deal and if they do - I might end up hating Oliver again.  So it's either crappy writing or crappy character development - oh fun!

[apinknightmare]

But saying that, it's so weird to have Felicity in the limo instead of Laurel then, even though I know the reason why they did that. But if it is Quentin in the grave, it would make more sense for Laurel to have that kind of intense emotional reaction that Felicity had. It is her dad after all.

Yeah, if it's Lance, Laurel not being around makes no sense. Unless she pulled an Oliver and didn't show up, or is off on her own being the justice whoever can't run from.

Edited January 29, 2016 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

I think it's Lance too, purely because I see it as them giving Laurel more story next season (and the last few episodes of this one too). Death doesn't become her, it motivates her. LOL.

 

But saying that, it's so weird to have Felicity in the limo instead of Laurel then, even though I know the reason why they did that. But if it is Quentin in the grave, it would make more sense for Laurel to have that kind of intense emotional reaction that Felicity had. It is her dad after all. 

 

Basically these flash forwards probably aren't gonna make much sense continuity-wise once the season is over and we can look back on things. Unless the one in the grave is Diggle, I don't think either of O/F's reactions will fit tbh.

 

Well the flash forwards don't even match with each other.  So yea, I don't think they are going to fit when it's all done and since they said they probably won't do anymore - I think we can just eyeroll them and move on.  But if it is Lance, maybe Laurel has already left with her mother?  I guess the only question would be - who is with Donna. But maybe Donna is the type who couldn't attend the funeral of a guy she just started to fall for?

[tv echo]

Or everyone else who might've been there is injured and in the hospital because the previous episode ended in a cliffhanger with no one knowing who survived and who actually died.

[kes0704]

For there to be any real point to "who's in the grave" it has to be a masked character. Injuring and killing off only the non-masked characters seems like a cheat and does nothing to raise the stakes.

The masks are directly in the line of fire, dodging bullets and engaging the villain night after night. If this plot is to have real consequences then it has to be either Diggle*, Laurel or Thea. If it turns out to be Quentin then this whole thing will be just another plot failure in a long line of them.

* It can't be Diggle because the show would be poorer for it if he was no longer there.

[apinknightmare]

I always thought Quentin was going to get it because of his involvement with DD, but if the "him" is Merlyn or someone else, and the dead person is Quentin, then I'm really curious about the circumstances of the death.

[dtissagirl]

If Malcolm is the "him" -- who would he kill, and why? I'm stumped trying to spec it.

 

ETA: my death pool standings are currently:

 

85% Quentin [this is the CW, old people die]

10% Laurel [Narrative-less window dressing who's expensive as fuck to the CW]

4% Thea [quickest surefire way to give Merlyn the Big Bad status in S5]

1% All other assorted characters.

 

I don't have much opinion on the "him".

Edited January 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[nksarmi]

For there to be any real point to "who's in the grave" it has to be a masked character. Injuring and killing off only the non-masked characters seems like a cheat and does nothing to raise the stakes.

The masks are directly in the line of fire, dodging bullets and engaging the villain night after night. If this plot is to have real consequences then it has to be either Diggle*, Laurel or Thea. If it turns out to be Quentin then this whole thing will be just another plot failure in a long line of them.

* It can't be Diggle because the show would be poorer for it if he was no longer there.

 

I think it's a bad assumption to make that this plot will have any real consequences.  They like to promote the hell out of things that really end up not being that big of a deal.

[AyChihuahua]

If Malcolm is the "him" -- who would he kill, and why? I'm stumped trying to spec it.

 

ETA: my death pool standings are currently:

 

85% Quentin [this is the CW, old people die]

10% Laurel [Narrative-less window dressing who's expensive as fuck to the CW]

4% Thea [quickest surefire way to give Merlyn the Big Bad status in S5]

1% All other assorted characters.

 

I don't have much opinion on the "him".

Well, if Malcolm allies himself with DD/the wife, DD could tell him to kill Quentin as a test of his loyalty.

[Guest]

Yeah, if it's Lance, Laurel not being around makes no sense. Unless she pulled an Oliver and didn't show up, or is off on her own being the justice whoever can't run from.

 

I LOL'd. Haha. 

 

Seriously though, the whole flash forward makes this messy. It feels like one giant fake-out because I don't think the death is going to match up with what they presented in the future.

[dtissagirl]

Seriously though, the whole flash forward makes this messy. It feels like one giant fake-out because I don't think the death is going to match up with what they presented in the future.

 

Now watch it be like, Curtis, or Alex, and the subsequent Guggie mansplaining on Tumblr on why was Barry there in the first flash forward.

[looptab]

Curtis's husband!

[AyChihuahua]

Curtis's husband!

That one ARGUS agent! No, not that one, the other one. No, the OTHER other one.

 

Seriously, if the death ends up being a third or fourth-tier character, what's the downside? The audience and reviewers call shenanigans, and keep watching. Ratings would not be at all affected.

 

Personally, I'm convinced it'll be a regular, mostly bc of the timing of the Guggie/Mericle visit, but if it's not a regular, I don't see much of a downside from their perspective. (Still think it's Quentin, who, as has been pointed out, has been a regular since the Pilot.)

 

Total aside, but Oliver knows Vandal Savage is alive again/still, right? Has it occurred to him to ask how or why? Has it occurred to ANYONE to suspect Malcolm of having something to do with that?

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

I also am convinced that it will be a series regular. That said, while I don't think Curtis' husband (what's his name?) is the one in the grave, I'm also not convinced he will live through the season, either. These writers never wrote a superhero origin story that didn't begin with a tragic death. I guess it depends on whether Curtis becomes Mr Terrific this season, or if they're going to wait on that.

[nksarmi]

The other real world reason I think it's Lance is that I have a real hard time believing that as much of a family as these people claim to be (not just Arrow but the whole Flarrowverse) that they just now told the person they are done.  I'd have a much easier time believing that this is someone who they have thought about killing off before but decided to wait and do it this season instead.

 

The person I thought was a total "dead man walking" last season was Lance.  When they had him working with Darhk at the start of this season, I was sure he was toast.  I think his love story with Donna this season is partly to up the anti on the feels for his death (because not that many people would have cared after he was such an ass at the end of three) - and partly because some fans wanted that so it was a now or never type of thing.

 

If I'm right, they've probably discussed Lance's death with PB before.  Anyone know what his contract was?  I think they said Colton's was only two years and that was part of why he was written off.

Edited January 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

The other real world reason I think it's Lance is that I have a real hard time believing that as much of a family as these people claim to be (not just Arrow but the whole Flarrowverse) that they just now told the person they are done.  I'd have a much easier time believing that this is someone who they have thought about killing off before but decided to wait and do it this season instead.

This is the industry standard -- telling an actor their character will be killed some 4 to 6 weeks prior to filming the episode. Pretty much every show does that.

 

Also super common: showrunners who don't tell regulars that they're dying, and they find out by reading the script.

Edited January 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

I think Quentin dying fits the external reasons of making it a big death: Paul B has been a regular since the pilot, and he has history/relationships with everyone on Team Arrow [now including dating Donna], so every character can react to him dying with different levels of emotion.

But I'm not sure if him dying causes any shock, or devastation on the audience. I think it's gonna be him, and my main reactions are 1. damn I'm gonna miss PB's behind the scene pictures, and 2. ugh, wrong Lance.

This is why Lance being in the grave throws me off. He matches about 85% of show narrative, but completely misses the mark for me in audience response.

 

Shocking, game-changing, *outage....I get they are really bad at interpreting audience reaction, but seriously.

 

*Watch the outage come from it being Lance and not so-and-so.

[AyChihuahua]

This is why Lance being in the grave throws me off. He matches about 85% of show narrative, but completely misses the mark for me in audience response.

 

Shocking, game-changing, *outage....I get they are really bad at interpreting audience reaction, but seriously.

I think it's very likely that they've massively overstated the OMG response, but from their perspective, so what? They get ripped on a bit by social media and reviewers. That's it. In the meantime they've gotten a lot of people talking about it and watching, so it's a win for them. Maybe down the road people take them less seriously, but that's a problem for another day, and I don't think Arrow EPs are much for the long game.

[Morrigan2575]

This is the industry standard -- telling an actor their character will be killed some 4 to 6 weeks prior to filming the episode. Pretty much every show does that.

 

Also super common: showrunners who don't tell regulars that they're dying, and they find out by reading the script.

Arrow pretty much follows this as well, Colin Donnel was informed (in person) end of February and Tommy was killed in 123 (started filming early April).  Susanna Thompson was informed end of January (via the phone), and Moira was killed in 220 (filmed in early March).  

 

Caity was informed in April (during filming of 223) that Sara would be killed in 301.  However, I think that probably comes down to extenuating circumstances.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Colton was also informed that they weren't gonna renew his contract in that same timespam. It's how it works, really.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah. Colton was also informed that they weren't gonna renew his contract in that same timespam. It's how it works, really.

Don't be ridiculous, Colton was ALWAYS leaving at the end of S3 because Colton wanted to go on to bigger and better things.  This was in no way Berlanti's decision not to renew the contract....LOL (j/k).  You have to love producer speak

[bijoux]

Total aside, but Oliver knows Vandal Savage is alive again/still, right? Has it occurred to him to ask how or why? Has it occurred to ANYONE to suspect Malcolm of having something to do with that?

  

I don't know. It definitely wasn't made known on this show. Maybe Ray told him who their target was on LoT. LoT viewers, help.

That said, while I don't think Curtis' husband (what's his name?)

I want to say Paul, but who knows.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know. It definitely wasn't made known on this show. Maybe Ray told him who their target was on LoT. LoT viewers, help.

Someone answered this on another thread. On LoT, apparently Oliver told Ray about Savage, so Oliver knows Savage is alive again/still. I find it HILARIOUS that no one is asking why, or, you know, suspecting the OTHER VILLAIN involved in the takedown of maybe having something to do with Savage's return.

[nksarmi]

This is the industry standard -- telling an actor their character will be killed some 4 to 6 weeks prior to filming the episode. Pretty much every show does that.

 

Also super common: showrunners who don't tell regulars that they're dying, and they find out by reading the script.

 

I know but it feels so wrong.  If his contract was up like Colton's was or if they tossed around the idea last season - it wouldn't be such a shock I would think.   I actually think the contract part of tv series are stupid - you can be fired anytime but you can't quit. 

[bijoux]

Someone answered this on another thread. On LoT, apparently Oliver told Ray about Savage, so Oliver knows Savage is alive again/still. I find it HILARIOUS that no one is asking why, or, you know, suspecting the OTHER VILLAIN involved in the takedown of maybe having something to do with Savage's return.

This is what I hate about the shared universe, that pertinent information is shared on another show. Honestly, since it seemed like a big deal for both Barry and Oliver, it's information that should have been shared on both of those shows. Show Oliver dialing Barry to give him the news on Arrow and then Barry telling Cisco about it on The Flash next week.

[dtissagirl]

I know but it feels so wrong.  If his contract was up like Colton's was or if they tossed around the idea last season - it wouldn't be such a shock I would think.   I actually think the contract part of tv series are stupid - you can be fired anytime but you can't quit.

At this point on Arrow, everyone's contract is up at the end of each season, and the network has options for another year. So that's not a differential for PB. Everyone's in the same boat.

And they can quit sometimes. The dude who plays Alaric on TVD quit to go star in another CW show. Then that show got cancelled and he went back to Plec-land.

[AyChihuahua]

This is what I hate about the shared universe, that pertinent information is shared on another show. Honestly, since it seemed like a big deal for both Barry and Oliver, it's information that should have been shared on both of those shows. Show Oliver dialing Barry to give him the news on Arrow and then Barry telling Cisco about it on The Flash next week.

It's just such a big blaring sign that Malcolm is still a bad guy. The last time they all saw Vandal Savage he was a literal pile of dust. A month later they hear he's alive and destroying the world 100 or whatever years from now, and it doesn't occur to them to ask how he went from a pile of dust to a living breathing supervillain again? And then, of course, that should lead to a moment of "Hmm, it was a bunch of us superheroes, PLUS MALCOLM, who turned Savage into a pile of dust, and knew where that pile was. I wonder who we should suspect of reconstituting the supervillain?"

 

Hee, the dumb never dies!

[bijoux]

 

Hee, the dumb never dies!

But it may stop with Oliver. And possibly Laurel if Sara told her on LoT. They didn't share with the rest of the class on Arrow.

[AyChihuahua]

But it may stop with Oliver. And possibly Laurel if Sara told her on LoT. They didn't share with the rest of the class on Arrow.

I like to think that if Felicity and/or Digg find out, they'll be like, "Hmm, Vandal Savage is alive, Malcolm Merlyn was there, let me put these INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED pieces of information together into a complex whole and deduce that MALCOLM IS A FRIGGING BAD GUY OMG OLIVER WHY DIDN'T YOU KILL HIM YEARS AGO?!?"

[statsgirl]

Well John Barrowman did say how much he liked Felicity looking at Malcolm like "If I could kill you right now I would".....

 

I think it's hysterical that Oliver needs to be prompted to remember he has a son, either by Donna discussing babies or Ivy Town Slow Cooker.  On the plus side, at least that means he's not leaving Felicity to go and visit the kid.

 

What if Oliver goes to CC in 14? Since he begins to feel uneasy lying to Felicity, he decides to go there and ask Samantha to revise her conditions. And that's what leads to the kidnapping in 15. The secret is exposed then.

This  makes a lot of sense -- it keeps Oliver relatively without guilt because he's not spending time with the kid, just keeping the secret, it gives Felicity a real reason to be angry at him (both the secret and endangering the kid when DD is targeting them, and it gives Laurel a reason to hug BM.

 

 

But saying that, it's so weird to have Felicity in the limo instead of Laurel then, even though I know the reason why they did that. But if it is Quentin in the grave, it would make more sense for Laurel to have that kind of intense emotional reaction that Felicity had. It is her dad after all.

Don't forget, Laurel and Felicity are now BFFs so I can see that reaction justified in Felicity. Quentin is dating Donna so the reaction is justified for him too.  My list stays the same after the limo scene:  Quentin, Laurel, possibly Thea or Roy.

 

 I guess it depends on whether Curtis becomes Mr Terrific this season, or if they're going to wait on that.

It also depends if Echo Kellum is no longer on his other show and free for Arrow.

But I stil don't see that level of emotion from either Oliver or Felicity for someone they only met a couple of times.

 

Also super common: showrunners who don't tell regulars that they're dying, and they find out by reading the script.

Graham Yost forgot to tell Margo Martindale that her character was being killed off on Justified and she read it in the script. Her response to him is apparently the desktop on his computer so he never forgets again.

 

I think it's very likely that they've massively overstated the OMG response, but from their perspective, so what? They get ripped on a bit by social media and reviewers. That's it. In the meantime they've gotten a lot of people talking about it and watching, so it's a win for them. Maybe down the road people take them less seriously, but that's a problem for another day, and I don't think Arrow EPs are much for the long game.

I think they often misjudge how the audience is going to react to something ("You have a light in you  Sara never had") and make stupid decisions (killing Moira, fridging Sara) but in certain areas, they've done a decent job of the long game.  Oliver may have to learn the same lesson over again too many times but in the end, he moves forward.

[Starfish35]

It also depends if Echo Kellum is no longer on his other show and free for Arrow.

But I stil don't see that level of emotion from either Oliver or Felicity for someone they only met a couple of times.

No, I don't mean Curtis's husband is the one in the grave. Definitely not. But just because he's not the one in this particular grave doesn't mean he won't die. Especially if they intend to turn Curtis into Mr. Terrific.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Laurel lawyering to take down Darhk... Come onnnnnnnnnnnn show! T_T

[apinknightmare]

Laurel lawyering to take down Darhk is another thing I'm kind of interested in seeing because unless he's ousted from H.I.V.E., how does it make any sense, even if they do manage to de-magicify him?

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel lawyering to take down Darhk is another thing I'm kind of interested in seeing because unless he's ousted from H.I.V.E., how does it make any sense, even if they do manage to de-magicify him?

I bet he is ousted from HIVE (and de-magicked).

[looptab]

I find extremely funny that they decided to bring back her supposed lawyer's ability, the year they decided to introduce magic to the show. 

[apinknightmare]

I bet he is ousted from HIVE (and de-magicked).

Yeah, probably. The leaders have their underground corn palace now, which seems to be the one thing they really wanted from him. It's really funny that they're going to use the law to take down the one guy that shouldn't work with, since he's the leader of a crime syndicate and knows how to do magic and stuff. It'll be kind of interesting to see if the depowering sticks (I'm guessing not) since it would he lame as shit to introduce magic and then have it conveniently go away.

Edited January 29, 2016 by apinknightmare