Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SleepDeprived]

The house that Thea, Oliver, and Anarky are in looks a lot like Darhk's house. I wonder if Team Arrow, unwittingly, leads Anarky to Darhk's house and Anarky attempts to kill Darhk's family/set fire to the house. I feel like Anarky, probably, harbors some resentment against Darhk, too, for what happened to him.

 

As unhinged as Oliver will be because of what happened to Felicity, I doubt he'd be so far gone that he'll kill or threaten the life of a child--even if it is Darhk's. Maybe GA and co. actually end up saving Darhk's kid and that's why Darhk doesn't end up killing him with his magic mojo right then and there ("I want to be clear..." that, even though you saved my daughter, I'm still going to destroy the city/beat you up?). Then, Darhk would kinda owe GA a debt and, at least, Oliver will find out that Darhk has a weakness/something that is very important to him that can be exploited, should he choose to, later on.

[chaos is welcome]

That would explain dds weird face in promo and stills.

Not here for kids being used as foder.

Also not here for dahrk using knowledge of william to manipulate oliver into helping him find his daughter if anarky does indeed take her.

Anvils for THAT are all over the pace with kid discussions during anarky's last appearance.

Makes me sick to my stomach to think about Oliver helping dahrk while felicity us paralyzed because of him. Which makes me feel like we should prepare ourselves....ugh.

[bijoux]

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by bijoux

[dtissagirl]

Could the game-changing lulz be about the Mayor office? Because with the debate happening in 414, I'm wondering if the election is coming up in 415, rather than at the end of the season [which I was assuming because Blood didn't become Mayor until after Moira was killed in 220].

What if Evil Mrs DD wins the election in 415 and we learn that DD is under *her* spell or something? And if Oliver is to lose the election, it makes sense that it happens in February. He can become Mayor in the season finale because he only needs a job in the first half of seasons, never in the second half. So it sets up 5A.

Edited January 12, 2016 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

He can become Mayor in the season finale because he only needs a job in the first half of seasons, never in the second half.

 

Snerk.

 

I get that I'm probably insane for trying to apply logic to this, but if she first appears on the political scene in 4x14, I really don't see how she can win an election a week later even if Oliver's secret son comes out at the debate. She'd be a complete unknown.

[kismet]

Can DD take the shape of another person? Because the woman in the posters looks different than the Xmas tree wife. Or maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention. Maybe he impersonates his wife.

I really think the game changer is going tone connected to the mind control of DD. Somehow his wife is not going be 100% real or in control of her mind/body. She is an actual human puppet and DD is her literal puppeteer.

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure she'll announce her candidacy soon - she was in the preview that they released with shots from eps they've already shot.

I don't think that DD is mind controlling his wife - in that preview she seems to be reprimanding him for not succeeding in his plans to give her a new world or whatever in the hell she was talking about there. If anything, he seems to be doing her bidding.

Edited January 12, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

Little aside from the current discussion, but if a break up needs to happen, please let it not be on 414. Not by Bamford. Gah!

[Morrigan2575]

I was just wondering if that BamBam pic with the emotional scene in the Campaign office was the Olicity breakup scene.

[apinknightmare]

Probably. At the very least it'll probably be the confrontation scene about him, and then hopefully a pow-wow about how they need to make him disappear forever since a terrible person now knows about his existence. ::fingers crossed::

[dtissagirl]

Little aside from the current discussion, but if a break up needs to happen, please let it not be on 414. Not by Bamford. Gah!

 

But the super shaky camera will make it so much more ~real!

 

<sarcasm.font>

Probably. At the very least it'll probably be the confrontation scene about him, and then hopefully a pow-wow about how they need to make him disappear forever since a terrible person now knows about his existence. ::fingers crossed::

 

Game changer: Felicity strikes a deal with DD so he mindwipes kid and Baby Mama from Oliver's memory. And hers too for good measure. Presto no more storyline of dumbness!

[looptab]

I so not want Felicity to find out about the stupid kid at that debate..but all signs seem to be pointing towards it. :/

[apinknightmare]

The only reason I do is because that puts the kid's existence out there to the general public and everyone who hates Oliver, and it means that if the wife is revealing it, that DD already knows, which means Billiam can get gone.

Or, at least, he should get gone, but since he has two morons for parents, who knows what would happen.

[kismet]

Have we heard any confirmation that the BM drama is coming back this season?

Personally I don't see that coming during the debates or any time sooner than ep 17 or 18. Right before or around the big "death". I just think DD and his wife have more up their sleeves than some reveal of a secret kid. Plus I really don't think the SC voters care considering they elected MQ who not only was part of the Undertaking (albeit unwilling) but also had a secret paternity drama.

I thought they might connect the BM drama to the election for its initial reveal. But now after seeing how its been introduced I think it will used to hurt the characters unrelated to the election. Also if it is going to be used for a potential breakup, I think it will come from Calculator and not DD.

[Guest]

Just catching up on spoilers, pleased that Felicity isn't Oracle. Made me a little relieved about the storyline in general, not sure why. I still hate it with the passion of a thousand suns though. Let's disable Felicity for plot and then they can plot for plot. Not impressed and I never will be.

 

If I never see the four masks walking out into the field together like it's a catwalk, it'll be too soon. Try something new already. Yawn. 

 

Also, wasn't 414 the episode that Antonio Negret was supposed to direct? If so, then yeah. Sounds like Olicity will break up in 414 or at least have a huge emotional scene about Oliver's son. AN always seems to get the big emotional Olicity moments (320, 406). At least now we know, not that I really care about Olicity right now. Felicity's storyline has soured me a lot at the moment. 

[looptab]

They did not elect Moira.

[dtissagirl]

Have we heard any confirmation that the BM drama is coming back this season?

Personally I don't see that coming during the debates or any time sooner than ep 17 or 18. Right before or around the big "death". I just think DD and his wife have more up their sleeves than some reveal of a secret kid.

 

If they use the kid dramalhama to break up Oliver/Felicity, then TV Law will most likely apply, and it'll happen during sweeps episodes. That limits it to 414-415, or the last 3 episodes of the season. Maaaybe 420 because Arrow likes to use that episode to set up the last 3 [May sweeps] eps. But it makes no sense to happen in 17 or 18, episodes hidden in March/April sportsball madness.

 

This is the same as the debacle about when would Felicity and Palmer have sex last season -- it was in 315 because February Sweeps.

[kismet]

They did not elect Moira.

True... Forgot about that. I guess we'll never know who SC would have elected. But she wasn't doing poorly in the polls.

I guess my point is that I don't think BM will be connected or related to the election at all. It just seems irrelevant to that part of the story, the way the writers introduced it to us this season.

[kismet]

If they use the kid dramalhama to break up Oliver/Felicity, then TV Law will most likely apply, and it'll happen during sweeps episodes. That limits it to 414-415, or the last 3 episodes of the season. Maaaybe 420 because Arrow likes to use that episode to set up the last 3 [May sweeps] eps. But it makes no sense to happen in 17 or 18, episodes hidden in March/April sportsball madness.

 

This is the same as the debacle about when would Felicity and Palmer have sex last season -- it was in 315 because February Sweeps.

You're probably right. I don't care enough to debate it. I was just thinking of episode numbers where they bury their crappy stories and 17/18 seem to be those in s2&3. And considering the overall hatred for the BM drama from a professional & fan basis, i thought the writers might switch it up and try to bury this plot point. Plus I thought it might connect the BM to the death speculation they are so proud of this season,

[apinknightmare]

I guess my point is that I don't think BM will be connected or related to the election at all. It just seems irrelevant to that part of the story, the way the writers introduced it to us this season.

I don't think it's irrelevant to that story at all. It is the soapiest of all soapy things to drop a kid bomb during an election. Doesn't necessarily have to be the debate, but...yeah. Any candidate worth their salt would do some digging on Oliver and uncover all kinds of stuff he doesn't want getting out. This has the added bonus in that the mother's actual sound reasoning of not wanting the kid mixed up in Oliver's terrible life will be realized here in the worst way. What more dramatic way to bring that all to the forefront than to not only reveal a secret that Oliver's been keeping, but to do it in front of everyone and by a villain? It's predictable, but pretty great. Mostly because the kid plot is stupid and this has the best chance of both revealing it and getting the kid the hell out of the picture.

Not that it couldn't come out some other way, but I think the chances of it being during the debate are pretty high.

Edited January 12, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

You're probably right. I don't care enough to debate it. I was just thinking of episode numbers where they bury their crappy stories and 17/18 seem to be those in s2&3. And considering the overall hatred for the BM drama from a professional & fan basis, i thought the writers might switch it up and try to bury this plot point. Plus I thought it might connect the BM to the death speculation they are so proud of this season,

 

The problem is this is a crappy story that can have hugeass consequences to the main romantic paring of a CW show. That's the important part, even with the negative reaction to the stupidity. It depends on whether they'll use the BM drama to blow up O/F -- if yes, then they'll probably want it during sweeps, if not, then they're giving up on it due to the audience and critical rejection, and then it can be hidden when nobody is watching.

Edited January 12, 2016 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see. I see your points @apinknightmare and they are valid. I just think the writers are using BM differently this season, esp with FS papa drama. It feels more soapy to connect it to him than DD.

If it does come out in the debate than Faux-Tebow better be fired or a bad guy because he does some shitty job on opposition research.

[apinknightmare]

It very well could come out during Papa Smoak's run. I just don't think so because it seems to me that they've set the secret kid storyline up as being all about the lie and keeping this secret, not about Oliver actually being a parent. But we'll see. It's difficult to go by what we've seen since they dropped the whole thing in the last ep.

The problem for Faux-Tebow is that he doesn't know about the kid. If he did, he'd be much more effective in helping Oliver keep it hidden. Seems like it'd be difficult for him to keep tabs on something he doesn't even know about.

Edited January 12, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

The campaign office seems like an odd place to have that intense, emotional scene between Oliver and Felicity. The placement kind of hints that the BMD (Baby Mama Drama) comes out on the campaign.

Also, it could be an intense scene between Oliver and Thea

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't WM say that the secret would be revealed mid-season?  We definitely know it's coming up again and it's definitely been given a time frame.  

 

The spec about the reveal at the debate could be wrong but, it seems likely, based on TV Law.

 

I don't remember but did WM say that the person who found out about the secret first would advocate for Oliver or even be one of the gang?  Maybe she was talking about DD or Mr.s DD?  Will go back and look for that spoiler.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I can't remember what she said about Oliver's advocate and the timing of him/her finding out. If you find the spoiler, will you post it here please?

I wonder if maybe Felicity finds out before the debate, but Ms. Adams drops the bomb in front of the crowd to not only let the voters know that Oliver has a big old secret, but to put the kid on blast so Oliver will get to hiding him or whatever and be distracted.

[Morrigan2575]

Found it, it was MG and yeah whoever finds out takes Oliver's side

 

And secrets always come out on this show.
Also, there will be another character who finds out about the child and Samantha’s ultimatum, and they will make the argument that Oliver really didn’t have a choice but to honor that promise. We’re going to do a whole episode about the virtues of the truth…it’s not always the best thing. But that is this show. Killings, secret keeping, ethical dilemmas, broken promises. We deal with the moral grey.

 

http://www.tvinsider.com/article/59110/arrow-fall-finale-marc-guggenheim-explains-olivers-actions/

[Chaser]

So if it is 4x14/4x15, does that put it after Diggles trip to CC?

I'm leaning towards Mama Smoak because she has a Mothers perspective, but has anyone considered Lance? He is a parent and buddy now. I'm sure they would just gloss over the timing of the kid.

[Guest]

All that's telling me is that someone will take Oliver's side and Felicity will basically be in the wrong for getting upset about the secret. Okay show. Thanks. 

[tv echo]

Here's what WM said about the BM drama:

-- On Oliver keeping his son secret from Felicity, WM: “Well, for Arrow, it's definitely going to come to a head in the middle of the season. I can't tell you how or exactly how that's gonna happen. But obviously for the arc of Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season, the fact that he's keeping this from her... True to what we've done on the show, if there's a secret somewhere, it's going to come out and it's going to have some serious consequences... We're really excited about how that's going to change things and it's really going to raise the stakes and throw some wrenches into the works of their relationship, which so far this season has been pretty smooth sailing. True to form, we're gonna really mine that. There'll be some fallout for both of them.” (IGN, ETonline, TVLine, Variety, Hollywood Reporter and EW articles, page 106 of Starling City Times thread)

ETA: The article links for the WM quote are all on page 106 of the Starling City Times thread (scroll down to my Dec 3 2015. 7:38 am post).

 

Regarding the big surprise twist regarding DD, I don't think he'll turn out to be an ally to Oliver against a greater Bad or have any good in him at all - except maybe for his daughter (if that is his daughter). The pre-S4 comments from the EPs emphasized that DD is deep down evil and very powerful. For Oliver to ally with someone so evil would be too much like what he did in S3. However, my speculation as to the twist is that maybe Malcolm will somehow outwit DD, and also use T(G)A to help outwit him, so that Malcolm can take over HIVE. Also, maybe Malcolm will manipulate things so that Oliver believes that DD caused the big character death and agrees to Malcolm's 'help', but it will actually be Malcolm who caused the big character death (just like he manipulated Sara's death). Then, with control over both HIVE and LOA, Malcolm will become/remain the Big Bad in S5.

 

Possible clues:

-- JB has said that Malcolm's always watching and gathering information.
-- JB has said that Malcom is a "great manipulator" and "puppet master".
-- NM has said that DD's ego will get the better of him at some point.

 

Regarding Felicity's paralysis, I hope it's not permanent - but if the EPs decide to make it permanent permanent, it should not* affect her role on T(G)A or her role as Oliver's love interest.  Remember Dark Angel, starring Jessica Alba as a genetically enhanced human?  Her main love interest (played by Michael Weatherly) was in a wheelchair for the entire two seasons of the show after he was paralyzed in a shooting - although, IIRC, he did acquire these high-tech leg braces that enabled him to walk for brief periods of time.  I just wish I trusted these Arrow EPs to do a good job.

 

(* I say "should not", but with these EPs, who knows?  If they use Felicity's paralysis as part of any reason to break up her and Oliver, then I will knock my head on my desk so hard, because that would be so disrespectful.)

 

Regarding the four masks walking down the street, unfortunately, I think the ratings success of the Arrow/Flash crossover eps (featuring 9 costumed superheroes) will make the EPs want to fill up Arrow and Flash with as many costumed heroes as possible. I think I even saw a news article headlined something like "more masks, higher ratings". That means, T(G)A is not shrinking any time soon - if anything, it will probably be added to next season (if not this season).

Edited January 12, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Thanks for bringing the quotes over, guys!

 

So, yeah, whoever gets dumbed down along with Oliver learns about the spawn between 410-414, then Felicity most likely finds out in either 414 or 415. If we go by episode titles, "Code of Silence" fits with that crap MG is saying about the virtues of the truth, for Felicity to figure it out. Fingers crossed BamBam got over his Blair Witch fetish?

 

And hopefully, if it's Donna or Dig that side with Oliver in sheer stupidity, it all happens in this same episode, because then they're only dumb for 20 minutes.

 

And if Felicity walks out on Oliver in 414, then Oliver and Poppy can bump uglies in 415! YAYNESS!

Edited January 12, 2016 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

I wonder why WM felt the need to specify "For Arrow" in that quote, haha. And now I'm reminded again of how they all think Oliver really, really had an impossible choice to make. Argh!

Edited January 12, 2016 by looptab

[looptab]

. Fingers crossed BamBam got over his Blair Witch fetish?

 

If not, I expect an Oliver's breakdown like this: (snot included)

Edited January 12, 2016 by looptab

[AyChihuahua]

The reviewers loved that stuff in his other episode, so I am expecting a lot more. Especially with PB's comments about the camera one inch from SA's eye. So yeah, shaky-cam POV breakup with 360 swoops. If she dumps him I guess I'll just catch that scene on youtube.

[Chasity]

Unpopular opinion, but I really want Oliver to skate on this BM secret. This season, every character has kept a secret and has faced zero consequences for it. I'm not okay with Oliver possibly losing Felicity, even temporarily, over a kid he doesn't get to be a father to and a secret he didn't want to keep in the first place. 

[tv echo]

Robert Dougherty agrees with some of you as to why they're paralyzing Felicity (I think he meant to write "ensure they will not break up until May")...

... Yet if Felicity isn't staying paralyzed so she can become Oracle, it may fuel suspicion that she will at least be cured by season's end, through some big invention or by magic. Of course, treating paralysis as such a curable disability may be a tricky thing to pull off sensitively.
 

But in all likelihood, the reason they are threatening Felicity with paralysis isn't to address disability issues, or to finally give her a superheroic code name, or to put her in that looming grave despite the recent misleading promos.
 

In the big picture, the only likely reason this plotline really exists is to ensure Oliver won't dare to tell Felicity about his newly discovered son -- which he kept silent about during the Arrow/The Flash crossover before they even got engaged -- and to ensure they will break up until May when the truth is forced out, even if Felicity is still paralyzed then.
 

If Arrow did plan to paralyze Felicity from the start of Season Four, if only temporarily, it makes it all the more puzzling and pointless that the son plotline/lie will pile on the future misery to come even further. There are other ways to give Rickards and Stephen Amell major drama and conflict to tackle -- and although the second half of Season Four hasn't started yet, it is still very hard to imagine this is the way to do it.

'Arrow' EP Denies Long Standing Felicity Theory
By Robert Dougherty Jan 12, 2016 08:59 AM
http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrow-ep-denies-long-standing-felicity-theory

Edited January 12, 2016 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I think he means the truth will force a breakup that will last until May, but it's definitely not a well-written sentence.

[lexicon]

Robert Dougherty agrees with some of you as to why they're paralyzing Felicity (I think he meant to write "ensure they will not break up until May")...

'Arrow' EP Denies Long Standing Felicity Theory

By Robert Dougherty Jan 12, 2016 08:59 AM

http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrow-ep-denies-long-standing-felicity-theory

 

No, my reading of it is that he meant break up until May - as in they'll probably break up around 4.14/4.15 and then stay apart until a possible reconciliation in time for May sweeps. 

[AyChihuahua]

If they break up in Feb and get back together in May, so 2-3 months, I would be happy. Especially if he works to get her back/show her he's changed FOR REAL THIS TIME. Although I REALLY hate the idea of anyone supporting Oliver's idiot choice, because if he did the right thing in a tough spot, then he won't learn from it. That makes it more likely they'll do more of this crap down the line. 

 

Also, they'll probably ignore this aspect just like they did all the likely rumors that she was sleeping her way to the top when he made her his EA, but imagine the media press on Felicity. Reporters shouting at her "Did you know about them? Was he cheating on you the whole time? Or did he start seeing BM/Spawn after you were shot/paralyzed? How do you feel about him going back to old Ollie? Were you not woman enough for him after all?"

 

Unbelievably humiliating, and since he didn't do her the courtesy of telling her before proposing, it's not like she knew what she was getting into. 

[tv echo]

I'm confused - why would they break up before May if Oliver doesn't tell Felicity the truth about BM son until May?  Do they break up for some other reason until May and then reconcile in May, but Oliver tells her about his son, and they break up again??

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if Robert Dougherty meant to write "and to ensure they WON'T break up until May", but wrote "will" instead, and it got muddled.

 

If so -- per WM, the surprise kid and BM all comes to a head in the middle of the season, so he's wrong about it?

[Velocity23]

Winter TV Preview! Your Scoop-Filled Guide to 20+ Returning Favorites

 

 

http://tvline.com/2016/01/12/returning-shows-2016-spoilers-arrow-castle-vampire-diaries/

[GirlvsTV]

Right, so this makes it seem like Felicity's injury is about making Oliver go into berserker mode. Not about her at all. Expected but still disappointing.

[Velocity23]

Well they still selling Felicity is dead story. They did the same with Oliver last year.

[tarotx]

I think that is probably still trying to sell Felicity dies.

[looptab]

What kind of moral questions. I wonder?

 

BTW, I don't think that's the purpose of the injury. I believe he will go into rage/kill all mode at first, but then realize that's not the way/he has become a different person/ haunting fb of Felicity and the Count and her saying "Not for me!"

Edited January 12, 2016 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

I think that is probably still trying to sell Felicity dies.

 

They definitely are still trying to sell that since she says that she doesn't know if anyone will be around to stop him. Like Felicity would be, if she was alive. 

[Guest]

Damn. "A lot of bullets in Felicity." How many times was she shot?

 

And yeah, they're basically saying Felicity's not going to be there to stop him and Diggle won't stop him either because he'll want to join in his crusade.

 

But those 410 pics showed Oliver inside DD's house so how exactly does DD get away? Haha, I bet he uses his daughter as leverage. "Don't kill me here, my daughter's inside!"

[apinknightmare]

What kind of moral questions. I wonder?

 

 

Incredibly stupid ones, I would imagine. Maybe if they should use her to suck the life out of him? If the answer is no, everyone on that team is an idiot.

Edited January 12, 2016 by apinknightmare

[tarotx]

Maybe Rather or not Oliver should allow Thea to kill. He's been trying to stop her from becoming a killer. I wonder if DD does die in 15, perhaps Thea is the one to kill him? Perhaps that sets her off down a road to being a potential villain not just what Oliver was like in season 1. Probably not. I just have that Thea kills Alex and Oliver blames Malcolm on my brain again.