Spoiler Discussion Thread

[foreverevolving]

I had to look the word up, never heard it before. Everyone I know calls it a Menorah. Maybe the difference between US and Isreal.

 

More like the english language (and possibly other languages too- Just assuming I actually have no idea) is wrong. The difference between a Menorah and a Chanukkiyah is in the number of branches. a Menorah only has 6 (7 if you count the upper middle one), while a Chanukkiyah has 8 (9 if you count the upper one).

 

and of course wikipedia says it better than me:

a [Chanukkiyah is a] nine-branched candelabrum lit during the eight-day holiday of Hanukkah, as opposed to the seven-branched menorah used in the ancient Temple or as a symbol

[statsgirl]

Every time I see DD telling Oliver "As long as they're alive, you have something to fight for. THAT is what I'm taking away from you", I think 'you haven't heard Felicity's "you honour the dead by fighting' speech, have you?'.

 

If the light symbolism with the Chanukkiyah is deliberate rather than a happy accident, I will be very impressed.

 

I think something is being blown into the chamber, not sucked out of it. The ribbons were fluttering in that clip.

Having Thea and Diggle in there too minimizes the Jewish/gas chamber.  On the other hand, it was horrendous the way the Nazis treated blacks and Roma too.

 

On a happier note, now that Donna and Quentin are together in public, I really really hope they don't skip the where Quentin reacts to learning that Felicity is Donna's daughter.

 If the plan was always to have BM be 'real part of the show' as is per AK interview (whatever that may mean) then shouldn't they have learned that introducing a female character by having them open to the perception of being mean to Oliver (and, now, by extension Felicity) is the wrong way to go.

I don't think she was ever intended to be a real part of the show, I interpreted AK's remarks to mean "you'll have a real storyline as opposed to a 10 second appearance which we're giving you in this episode.".

Edited December 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

 Your metas are always a great read, so I'm glad that we're on the same (rather small ATM) boat on this. ::high five:: (But we should probably put on life jackets, just in case)

I think I might be on this boat as well. I think I saw life jackets somewhere... Who wants to be in charge of the whistle?

[kismet]

Nothing to do with the promo, but I was wondering:

 

When Malcolm threatened to kill Oliver if anything happened to Thea, was that just a one-off that was nothing, or was it an indicator that Thea's in the grave, setting up Malcolm to be the big bad (again) next year? Opinions?

I think it was just another episode of MM - Master Manipulator. He's reminding OQ & the audience how much he "loves" his daughter, while at the same time willing to sacrifice her. However OQ responds well to emotional manipulation that puts his loved ones at risk. So its a smart tactic for MM to use. I think MM will be the big bad again eventually but not until s6 would be my first bet when they've completed the "island" flashbacks and need something else to fill their episodes or provide unique perspective.

 

I have to agree with the people that think its too early to kill TQ as the last surviving original Queen Family member. She's fair game in later seasons. But for now I think she is safe. Plus if they kill her too soon, it loses all of her potential as future play piece between MM & OQ in later seasons.

[wonderwall]

I think I might be on this boat as well. I think I saw life jackets somewhere... Who wants to be in charge of the whistle?

If the ship does in fact sink this season... Everyone, please don't be a bitch like Rose was on Titanic and move over because there was clearly room for 2 people on that board :p

 

[apinknightmare]

If the ship does in fact sink this season... Everyone, please don't be a bitch like Rose was on Titanic and move over because there was clearly room for 2 people on that board :p

 

"I'll never let go, Jack. I'll never let go." ::lets go::

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think room was the issue, IIRC it was weight/buoyancy.

[kismet]

If the ship does in fact sink this season... Everyone, please don't be a bitch like Rose was on Titanic and move over because there was clearly room for 2 people on that board :p

 

Thank you.... It's been how many years since Titanic and I am still pissed at Rose!! "I'll never let go", yeah right! I love that there has been legitimate research done to prove that Rose really was a bitch. And then to throw the diamond back when she could have done so much good with the money. Maybe fund an art school in Jack's name.

 

I promise to move over. There will be room on the plank :)

[Morrigan2575]

Thank you.... It's been how many years since Titanic and I am still pissed at Rose!! "I'll never let go", yeah right! I love that there has been legitimate research done to prove that Rose really was a bitch. And then to throw the diamond back when she could have done so much good with the money. Maybe fund an art school in Jack's name.

I promise to move over. There will be room on the plank :)

Responding in Small Talk Thread

[way2interested]

Actually, Mythbusters proved that it was the weight of Jack and Rose that made it improbable to share the plank rather than the space, but small topic and off-topic, I know.

 

Back on topic, I'm just still confused at some of the order of the events for 409. Yeah, Felicity, Diggle and Thea seem to be trapped in the Glass Case of Emotions, but why is Felicity next to Oliver when 3 of the Ghosts grab him? Why are the 3 of them still dressed in their holiday party wear, but Oliver changed his clothes? Seems pretty obvious that this still takes place somewhere in the middle of the episode while the limo attack is going to be the ending/cliffhanger, but it's these small details that throw me off.

 

Edited because Morrigan2575 gives link explanation in "Small Talk"

Edited December 7, 2015 by way2interested

[Morrigan2575]

Actually, Mythbusters proved that it was the weight of Jack and Rose that made it improbable to share the plank rather than the space, but small topic and off-topic, I know

Hahah! I just posted that in the Small Talk Thread

Edited December 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

The scene that throws me is the one with Oliver in the GA suit tossing his bow down. He looks frustrated. Laurel isn't suited up behind. Did he go looking on his own after they were taken and Laurel didn't get there till later?

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

I think I might be on this boat as well. I think I saw life jackets somewhere... Who wants to be in charge of the whistle?

Permission to come aboard as well.  I don't have life jackets, but I do have cookies. :)

 

I just watched LOY today and I'm pretty zen on the whole thing.  I don't like that Oliver lied AT ALL. He definitely should and will suffer the consequences, although I'm guessing not until February sweeps for maximum drama. And just to make it more painful, I'm sure Felicity will find out from someone else like her father or Malcolm that Oliver lied. But as a soap opera veteran from way back (and lets be real Arrow is now and always has been a soap opera...with arrows) lying about a secret kid is a 3 or 4 tops on the scale of manufactured soap angst. It could have been so much worse.  Talk to me when Oliver pretends to be dying from a brain tumor to make Felicity feel sorry for him and break up her new romance cuz yeah one of my former ships did that.

[way2interested]

The scene that throws me is the one with Oliver in the GA suit tossing his bow down. He looks frustrated. Laurel isn't suited up behind. Did he go looking on his own after they were taken and Laurel didn't get there till later?

 

My best guess: Holiday party attack, DD takes Diggle, Thea, and Felicity per the promo, Oliver goes to try to save them as GA, fails and talks with Laurel (who for some reason, was not at that holiday party) in which he figures that the only way to save them as Oliver Queen (letting himself get captured and then surprise them from the inside with his skills and allow Diggle and Thea to escape and help him fight), gets caught, DD tries to kill them when *surprise* GA (Malcolm) and Black Canary show up to save the day. 

[Primal Slayer]

I hope they don't have Malcolm pose as GA, seems like someone pools that every season.

[apinknightmare]

I hope they don't have Malcolm pose as GA, seems like someone pools that every season.

 

He is - it's in one of the promos.

[Primal Slayer]

[Chaser]

Someone mentioned 2 songs MG teased for 4x09. I remember the All My Life one. What was the other one?

[Morrigan2575]

I could only find the reference to All My Life. If there's two songs I'm sure someone will come up with the other title very soon.

[Chaser]

I could only find All My Life as well. Maybe they were confused.

[wonderwall]

Someone mentioned 2 songs MG teased for 4x09. I remember the All My Life one. What was the other one?

 

The other one is Christmas in Fallujah

[Orion]

A few days ago people on Twitter mentioned that he also mentioned the song Christmas in Fallujah by Billy Joel for episode 4X09 but I'm not sure where those people saw it tumblr or Twitter.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm2aqyXL7YE

[Sunshine]

I can't link on this device but it was a Dec 4 twitter response to a question from @alwaysbett. 

[BkWurm1]

More like the english language (and possibly other languages too- Just assuming I actually have no idea) is wrong. The difference between a Menorah and a Chanukkiyah is in the number of branches. a Menorah only has 6 (7 if you count the upper middle one), while a Chanukkiyah has 8 (9 if you count the upper one).

 

and of course wikipedia says it better than me:

 

 

This is really interesting.  I swear in the third grade Noah Silver's mom came in and told the class all about Hanukkah called it a Menorah (and handed out chocolate dreidels)  and I know that's what it gets called on TV.  So nice to know how rampantly ignorant we remain.

 

 

 

 

The other one is Christmas in Fallujah

 

This seemed like perhaps the relevant lyrics.

 

We came to bring these people freedom

we came to fight the infidel

there is no justice in the desert

Because there is no God in Hell

   

 

So they came to bring freedom to the people of Star City from DD but there is no justice when the devil (still DD) is in control. 

[bijoux]

The scene that throws me is the one with Oliver in the GA suit tossing his bow down. He looks frustrated. Laurel isn't suited up behind. Did he go looking on his own after they were taken and Laurel didn't get there till later?

I suppose this is after the electrocution doesn't yield desired results.

[lemotomato]

I suppose this is after the electrocution doesn't yield desired results.

For some reason, I thought the electrocution scene was from 410. But then again, that was when we didn't know Felicity would be in peril at least twice in one episode.

[bijoux]

I've honestly lost track of what's happening when. It could be in 4x10. Though it would make more sense if it happened when Oliver's trying to get the information on everyone's whereabouts than dealing with the fall out of this episode. But that means more sense to me, not the writers.

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure the electrocution scene is for 410. SA posted it around the time that episode was being filmed.

 

My guess is the scene where Oliver slams down his bow in the promo is after Felicity, Diggle and Thea have been taken somewhere and he goes off to do something but maybe Laurel and Malcolm help him come up with another plan? Because going after DD as GA would only give away that he's Oliver Queen and I'm assuming DD doesn't know that yet. Explains why Malcolm is dressed in the Arrow suit too.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

This seemed like perhaps the relevant lyrics.

 

We came to bring these people freedom

we came to fight the infidel

there is no justice in the desert

Because there is no God in Hell

   

 

So they came to bring freedom to the people of Star City from DD but there is no justice when the devil (still DD) is in control. 

Ironically, I think those lyrics apply more to DD's side of the story than TA,  

Edited December 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

So... Regarding that comic strip that I posted... Are they planning on making Laurel likable just by being friendly/complimenting/acknowledging Felicity? Because that's not going to make me like her :p

Edited December 7, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

Aw, Oliver's saving lil mini Felicity in that comic preview. 

[Ann Mack]

Marc releasing stuff early because he knows he has pissed off the whole Olicity fandom with that horrible ass writing. So here let me throw some early bread crumbs to try and ease back into their good graces, eh it ain't working Marc at least not with me. You have to come better than with just this!

[Guest]

LOL at the way Felicity is talking to the kids. 

[dtissagirl]

So... Regarding that comic strip that I posted... Are they planning on making Laurel likable by being friendly/complimenting/acknowledging Felicity? Because that's not going to make me like her :p

 

Pretty sure YES, but otoh, KC suffers from a terribad case of Involuntary NOTP Syndrome, and it shows every time?

[Morrigan2575]

Mini Felicity is in danger!  I hope Oliver saves her and she's not the death that has Oliver looking all sad in that one promo still.

 

ETA: Seriously, talk about Anvils.  So "mini Felicity" is killed/almost killed by bullets...

Edited December 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Felicity leading circle time, finding the mini Felicity in the audience, having Oliver save mini Felicity. They are laying it on thick.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity leading circle time, finding the mini Felicity in the audience, having Oliver save mini Felicity. They are laying it on thick.

 

SO THICK.

 

Also, we better find out what DD wants with the bay in this ep. I also need to know how in the eff Damien Darhk is staying so young if he doesn't have his own LP waters anymore? Is the magique taking care of that for him now or what?

Edited December 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

Here's my guess regarding LL & FS. I feel like the writers are going to seize the opportunity of BM drama to bring FS & LL closer together as friends. FS is going to turn to LL for comfort in dealing with a lying OQ. More awkward hugs & tears are headed our way. In the writers' minds, LL will be the best opportunity for FS to have a shoulder to cry on since she has first hand experience with OQ being a dumb idiot when it comes to relationships. Bonus the dumb mistake even happened on her watch. They will probably also seize the opportunity of BM hate to point out that see LL is not as bad.

 

And trust me I do not want this to happen, but with these writers I feel like this is where they are heading.

[Morrigan2575]

SO THICK.

 

Also, we better find out what DD wants with the bay in this ep. I also need to know how in the eff Damien Darhk is staying so young if he doesn't have his own LP waters anymore? Is the magique taking care of that for him now or what?

there was that thing about bacteria or micro organisms that JUST popped up.  So, I'm guessing that plays a huge part in DD's plans. Of course, I still have no idea what those plans are.  Sadly, I'm guessing it's probably tied into something that happens back on Fantasy Island...so repetitive.

[looptab]

Please no. No Laurel and Felicity bonding over Oliver. Please!

[tangerine95]

I think they're just trying to give Laurel and Felicity small interactions that won't piss anyone off like they did last year.And they're trying to do it by Laurel giving Felicity compliments since last season Felicity proping Laurel didn't go over so well.I don't think they have much of a plan for it though.Laurel seems to me like she couldn't be more of an afterthought for them this season.

lol they are not subtle at all.I bet we get a scene of Oliver staring longingly at Felicity with the kids.

[bijoux]

LOL at the way Felicity is talking to the kids. 

It's perfect. Just like what Felicity would talk to kids. And that one must find it so refreshing, not having grown ups talking down to her.

 

Aw, Oliver's saving lil mini Felicity in that comic preview. 

I didn't even notice that. First reaction: awww. Second reaction: damn you, show, for your emotional manipulation.

 

SO THICK.

 

Also, we better find out what DD wants with the bay in this ep. I also need to know how in the eff Damien Darhk is staying so young if he doesn't have his own LP waters anymore? Is the magique taking care of that for him now or what?

They have to. He's been here the whole time, even before the season started so we have to find out something about his plans in the winter finale. The partners being there is a good sign that things have to come to a light. Isn't he supposed to have stolen water from the LP when he defected from the League?

[apinknightmare]

there was that thing about bacteria or micro organisms that JUST popped up.  So, I'm guessing that plays a huge part in DD's plans. Of course, I still have no idea what those plans are.  Sadly, I'm guessing it's probably tied into something that happens back on Fantasy Island...so repetitive.

 

Oh yeah, duh. Ruining the water supply or something of the like, I guess?

Isn't he supposed to have stolen water from the LP when he defected from the League?

 

He did, but I'm not sure they remember that, because the EPs talk about the LP like it's all taken care of, when there is supposed to be at least another one out there?

Edited December 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Oh yeah, duh. Ruining the water supply or something of the like, I guess?

Maybe.  Although that seems like something from an Austin Powers movie...wait that's your Evil Plan?  We've been poisoning our water supply on our own for years! What kind of Evil Master Villain are you?!

[apinknightmare]

I think they're just trying to give Laurel and Felicity small interactions that won't piss anyone off like they did last year.And they're trying to do it by Laurel giving Felicity compliments since last season Felicity proping Laurel didn't go over so well.

 

I don't think Laurel's even giving her compliments. Like last ep when Felicity went on about meteors and said "I know stuff," and Laurel replied that's why they loved her, but pointed out that her knowing that didn't help them stop Savage. That and "she's like a mini you," just seem like observations to me.

[kismet]

Poisoning the water supply is so cliche villain trope. Honestly, why am I not surprised that is potentially where they are taking this storyline?

[Chaser]

I don't think they would kill a kid in a mass shooting. I think Oliver is just sad that this happened.

I'm wondering if Felicity doesn't drown but instead is hit by a bullet. It would be an 'homage' to Oracle.

I'm not really concerned with Laurel bonding. That would mean the show would actually have to spend time reminding the audience of details of the Laurel and Ollie relationship. I honestly think the show wants us to forget the vast majority of that relationship (4.05 glossed over and downplayed so much).

Too me, it would make much more sense to have Thea and Felicity bond over this. The two people closest to him. The two people who would be most effected by this child in his life. He always had an honest relationship with Felicity and he just promised Thea no more secrets. The scenes should write themselves.

[lexicon]

I don't think Laurel's even giving her compliments. Like last ep when Felicity went on about meteors and said "I know stuff," and Laurel replied that's why they loved her, but pointed out that her knowing that didn't help them stop Savage. That and "she's like a mini you," just seem like observations to me.

 

It doesn't come off as complimentary though. To me, it seems almost condescending, especially her delivery of the line in the crossover "and that's why we love you but it's not helping now" or whatever. It ranked up there with a line she had when Oliver was dead when she was impressed with Felicity's computer skills and commented that Oliver was lucky to have her. The words certainly gave the impression of being impressed but the delivery didn't quite hit the same note. 

 

In addition to the legendary KC/SA anti-chemistry, I'd like to add the KC/EBR one as well or maybe that should be LL/FS anti-chemistry because the two actresses certainly seem to hang out a lot off set if you go by all the pics posted on SM. Too bad all that off-screen bonding doesn't work for them on screen, it would definitely make their scenes easier to bear.  

[apinknightmare]

It doesn't come off as complimentary though. 

 

I didn't say that it was? I wrote that they seemed like observations to me, not compliments. This show has such a potential mess on its hands right now, personally I'm not even going to worry about a line or two between Laurel and Felicity at this point. Seems inconsequential to me.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm wondering if Felicity doesn't drown but instead is hit by a bullet. It would be an 'homage' to Oracle.

Given that the Limo appears to be shot up while crashing (unless it's an editing trick in the promo) that would seem possible. Although, it could just be the limo crashing and Felicity gets tossed around and injured that way.