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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Chaser

Chaser

(edited)

I wonder how they filmed this. During the fancy dress set interviews they said WH and KC weren't on set but while Laurel clearly isn't in those scenes, Thea is.

So Laurel is the only member of the group not targeted in the mid season finale? Interesting.

Edited by 10Eleven12
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Nothing to do with the promo, but I was wondering:

 

When Malcolm threatened to kill Oliver if anything happened to Thea, was that just a one-off that was nothing, or was it an indicator that Thea's in the grave, setting up Malcolm to be the big bad (again) next year? Opinions?

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Guest

Guest

Could it be that Thea and Diggle are in the chamber with Felicity or are they in separate ones?

 

It wouldn't be Arrow without a 'choose one who dies' plot. LMAO. Keep recycling those storylines, Arrow writers. It's not tired AT ALL.

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

I see it about as offensive as I would seeing Diggle in chained up by a white guy. To me, putting 2 characters in a gas chamber is not offensive, it has nothing to do with their religion and they are surrounded by other characters of other beliefs.

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Guest

Guest

So Thea, Felicity and Diggle get taken by DD at the party. Oliver goes off to the lair and joins up with Laurel and Malcolm and they hatch a plan. Then Oliver meets up with DD (he's changed from a suit to casual clothes at this point) and then Laurel will canary cry the windows and Malcolm will pretend to be GA and they save the day together?

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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Nothing to do with the promo, but I was wondering:

When Malcolm threatened to kill Oliver if anything happened to Thea, was that just a one-off that was nothing, or was it an indicator that Thea's in the grave, setting up Malcolm to be the big bad (again) next year? Opinions?

I don't think they're killing off Thea. They just got rid of Roy to make Thea Speedy. I don't think they'll get rid of Oliver's "sidekick" and last remaining family member a season later.
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HighHopes

HighHopes

I see it about as offensive as I would seeing Diggle in chained up by a white guy. To me, putting 2 characters in a gas chamber is not offensive, it has nothing to do with their religion and they are surrounded by other characters of other beliefs.

 

It may not have anything to do with their religion, but it is the holidays. And if the set photos from that media visit are correct, we see a Hanukkah table set up for Felicity- so her religion does get brought up in the same episode. The connotation is there and that's what matters imo. An evil white dude plans on killing some people by locking them in a room that has some type of gas getting pumped into it- and two of those characters are also Jewish. It's gross and they should have thought of an alternative, especially considering MG and another writer are both Jewish.

 

And again, imo, if they had a white dude whip Diggle like Oliver did to the guy in the flashbacks? It would be equally as disgusting and terrible.  

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

Oh sorry, must have missed that. Thanks for the info :-)

 

I hope that didn't come of snappy, we just had a full-on discussion about it a few days ago, and knew about as much then as we know now - which is not a lot. :)

Edited by apinknightmare
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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

It's meh to me. He isn't targeting Felicity/Donna based on their religion or basing their death on anything to do with it. Especially with them being with 2 (+?) other people, it is a mere coincidence and nothing I think the writers really would have to think about. Of course it is perfectly fine if some people take issue with it, but for me, I don't see it as black/white, just as I wouldn't with Diggle being whipped or tortured by a white guy.

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bijoux

bijoux

Could it be that Thea and Diggle are in the chamber with Felicity or are they in separate ones?

I think they're all together. I'm 99% certain that Felicity is right next to Dig at one point in that clip.
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calliope1975

calliope1975

(edited)

And again, imo, if they had a white dude whip Diggle like Oliver did to the guy in the flashbacks? It would be equally as disgusting and terrible.  

 

That entire whipping scene felt weird to begin with; it would have been a billion times worse if that character had been black. (To be fair, as horrifically insensitive and clueless as these writers are, I don't think even they would go with a white dude whipping a black guy.)

 

What if Diggle was in a group of people of all races, who were all getting whipped by a white guy? Not playing devil's advocate or anything, just honestly curious.

 

 

With all the current problems America is having with race relations and power imbalances with POC, that type of scene would still bother me. But everyone's MMV. As I said above, the whipping scene as it was made me side eye it. 

Edited by calliope1975
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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I think they're all together. I'm 99% certain that Felicity is right next to Dig at one point in that clip.

 

Yeah, I just paused the video and could see Diggle behind Felicity. Well, that's something at least. 

Edited by Guest
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bijoux

bijoux

Yeah, I just paused the video and could see Diggle behind Felicity. Well, that's something at least.

Yeah, Thea gets to join Felicity and Dig in their annual 'we're about to die' team building session.
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

(To be fair, as horrifically insensitive and clueless as these writers are, I don't think even they would go with a white dude whipping a black guy.)

 

I certainly hope not, but at this point...man, I just don't know.

 

If the oxygen is being sucked out of the room - which it kind of seems like it might be based on the "breathless" tag on the original promo - I wonder if the gas is just a visual effect to accompany whatever reactions the characters have, just so that we'll be able to see that there's actually something going on in there, and that they're not actually being gassed?

Edited by apinknightmare
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Belinea

Belinea

Well, that way it isn't only Oliver who 'dies' before Christmas break but everyone 'dies'. Since they cannot have Oliver do it every year, the rest gets to take turns now. Expect for Laurel because frankly there might be some people who would not be sad about it. 

I have to admit that my favorite mid-season finale was S2. There was no 'epic death' only Deathstroke killing it with his speech. I was so excited. Now I am once again dreading how far they'll go to 'change the show forever' (insert every other promotional phrase uttered by MG).

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Belinea

Belinea

Plus weren't the team basically locked in a chamber and suppose to die by a virus that took on gas form last year?

Yes, but some things are hard for them to remember or they might have to think too long about coming up with something else ;-)

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

Plus weren't the team basically locked in a chamber and suppose to die by a virus that took on gas form last year?

 

I think being locked in a room with a virus released and left to run its course is different than being rounded up and put in a room with the intent of being gassed to death, during Hanukah. *If* that's actually going on, one would think someone on the show/at the network would've suggested they come up with something else?

Edited by apinknightmare
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Balaclava

Balaclava

I see it about as offensive as I would seeing Diggle in chained up by a white guy. To me, putting 2 characters in a gas chamber is not offensive, it has nothing to do with their religion and they are surrounded by other characters of other beliefs.

 

There are 3 chars in that closed chamber about to be gassed to death (lets presume it is), one is Thea, the other a Jewish char and the 3rd one is a POC. 2 out of 3 chars that are in the chamber turned that scene into something extremely offensive and very insensitive from the eps part. Either someone skipped history classes or the lack of tact in Arrow writers room is astonishing. Guess i'll be reading once again something in the lines of "DD is evil, he does evil things"........ 

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

So the only difference is timing really. Yeah it would be unfortunate timing but that seems to be about all.

 

No, the difference is that Ra's locked them in a room with a virus. He didn't lock them up in an airtight chamber and then turn the gas on*. Do you really not recognize that?

 

*assuming that's what winds up happening here, but I'm going to withhold judgment until I see it.

Edited by apinknightmare
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calliope1975

calliope1975

Guess i'll be reading once again something in the lines of "DD is evil, he does evil things"........ 

 

If they want to make him really evil, he should make some comment about it being Chanukah and the irony of using gas. Let's go all in and forego the allusions and unintended meanings. Sure, there might be a bit of backlash, but you want to show me evil, show me some evil. (This is a sarcastic comment. I'm just feeling particularly bitter towards TPTB today.)

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

(edited)

How does Digg add to the offensiveness? Maybe my memory is wonky, not remembering correctly but gassing slaves was not a big thing was it?

 

No, the difference is that Ra's locked them in a room with a virus. He didn't lock them up in an airtight chamber and then turn the gas on*. Do you really not recognize that?

 

*assuming that's what winds up happening here, but I'm going to withhold judgment until I see it.

Ra's locked them in a room with a vrius that turned to gas, DD is locking them in a airtight chamber and turns on the gas. Not that much of a difference to me. Both would've ended up dying, and even in NP, they could've ended up dying from lack of oxygen. 

Edited by Primal Slayer
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Ra's locked them in a room with a vrius that turned to gas, DD is locking them in a airtight chamber and turns on the gas. Not that much of a difference to me. Both would've ended up dying, and even in NP, they could've ended up dying from lack of oxygen. 

 

The virus didn't turn into a gas - it was airborne. There is a difference. 

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Guest

Guest

I actually can't believe this is even a debate right now.

 

IMO, putting the one Jewish character in a gas chamber is insensitive and makes me slightly uncomfortable and I'm not even Jewish. If it doesn't offend you, great for you, but it's absolutely justified if people are offended by it. No one gets to decide or police what everyone should and shouldn't find offensive. 

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

I actually can't believe this is even a debate right now.

 

IMO, putting the one Jewish character in a gas chamber is insensitive and makes me slightly uncomfortable and I'm not even Jewish. If it doesn't offend you, great for you, but it's absolutely justified if people are offended by it. No one gets to decide or police what everyone should and shouldn't find offensive. 

It was never stated that people shouldn't be offensive. I stated that it is peoples right to be offended if they choose to be.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Well they certainly added an effect to it in ND that made it seem like it could turn to gas.

 

They added an effect to show that there was something in the capsule since it looked like it was empty. It was airborne, which was why everyone was running around Starling in the finale trying to stop people from releasing it.

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Guest

Guest

It was never stated that people shouldn't be offensive. I stated that it is peoples right to be offended if they choose to be.

 

Well, that's fair enough but continuing to argue about its offensiveness isn't really helping matters, but maybe that's just me.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Basically what I'm getting is if it wasn't a gas chamber, no one would be complaining. People will have a right to be offended this year about the show being insensitive about Jewish history just like people were offended last year when the show forced a gay woman and a straight man to get married. 

 

Releasing an airborne virus =/= what happened in history

Gassing a jew in a gas chamber = what happened in history

 

Some people may think that both scenarios are the same, some don't. Let's agree to disagree and move on. 

Edited by wonderwall
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Balaclava

Balaclava

How does Digg add to the offensiveness? Maybe my memory is wonky, not remembering correctly but gassing slaves was not a big thing was it?

 

I'm not talking about slavery that's a all different convo, and this is not only about religion either. During the holocaust there were 6 million (estimate numbers) Jewish people killed and an additional 5 million (estimate numbers) non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders throughout Nazi Germany and German-occupied territories. Among those additional 5 million people victim of genocide there was various ethnic and political groups: Romanis, ethnic Poles,Slavs, Soviet POWs, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses,the mentally and physically disabled,ethnic Serbs etc etc etc (i'm sorry about the etc's) and....POC's. Do you understand now why 2 out of 3 people in that chamber makes the scene offensive?  Oy maybe i should go tell this to the Arrow writers, send them a few books, links to read, make then watch a few documentaries because apparently their memory/knowledge about the genocide is not very good either. Bottom line is insensitive and,yes, offensive! 

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

(edited)

And you are free to feel that way and I can see where some people are coming from. Maybe if they had given DD ties to Nazis or perhaps just Felicity and her mother , I would find it more offensive then I do. 

Edited by Primal Slayer
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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

(edited)

It may not have anything to do with their religion, but it is the holidays. And if the set photos from that media visit are correct, we see a Hanukkah table set up for Felicity- so her religion does get brought up in the same episode. The connotation is there and that's what matters imo. An evil white dude plans on killing some people by locking them in a room that has some type of gas getting pumped into it- and two of those characters are also Jewish. It's gross and they should have thought of an alternative, especially considering MG and another writer are both Jewish.

 

And again, imo, if they had a white dude whip Diggle like Oliver did to the guy in the flashbacks? It would be equally as disgusting and terrible.  

 

It's not only brought up by the Chanukkiyah and the rest of Chanukah stuff, but Oliver actually references the events which are the cause this holiday existence by saying "you fight [dark] with light" in the episode (as we've seen in the promo).

 

Regarding the jewish character in the gas chamber.. as a Jew (am I the only one on this board?) i'm not overly offended. To be fair, once a year- during holocaust day - in early Mayish- every single channel in Israel airs nothing holocaust related movies and documentaries, I have been raised on these since I was a baby, I've pretty much seen it all by now, so I may be desensitized to these things by now.

I'm not overly offended, I think I would have cried Wolf if all the characters in that chamber were Jewish.

Edited by foreverevolving
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

It's not only brought up by the Chanukkiyah and the rest of Chanukah stuff, but Oliver actually references the events which are the cause this holiday existence by saying "you fight [dark] with light" in the episode (as we've seen in the promo).

I had to look the word up, never heard it before. Everyone I know calls it a Menorah. Maybe the difference between US and Isreal. Edited by Morrigan2575
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